I was finishing my pile of cedar yesterday and looking forward to getting my county champion cherries up on the mill when . . .
CRACK, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap!
One of the drive side bearings shattered :'(
A quick call to Woodmizer on my cellphone got me complete directions on how to remove the drive side wheel and part numbers for all the bearings--THANKS WOODMIZER! :)
But they also informed me that they don't stock the Link-Belt bearings anymore and could only replace them by sending me an entirely new oil-bathed shaft and bearing set--for $350. :'(
Being the masochistic, penny-pinching, do-it-youselfer that I am, I started taking the shaft assembly apart myself. :D
Right off the bat, I run into problems with the split tapered bushing that holds the wheel on--depite following Woodmizer's excellent instruction, the metal of the bushing failed and broke right at the collar.
With a little tapping and cold-chiseling I finally got it loose and to my horror I discover that the shaft is wallowed out under the bearing:
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/bearingfailure01web.jpg)
About that time, my cousin gets back from Applied Bearings with a new pair of pillowblocks and new split tapers:
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/bearingfailure02web.jpg)
I think I like these Dodge bearings better that the original Link-Belts since they're greasable.
Now I'm down $120 and I still have to get a new shaft made today and have the new bearings seated--hopefully for less than $200. :D
I hope the new pillow block bearings are high speed. If not they won't last long. The replacemant part you were priced was an oil bath cylindrical bearing assembly. Same type we use on our mills today. A lot more durable and easy to maintain since it is fill with ATF. Like all things we try, hindsight makes the $350.00 look good. I'd return the bearings and upgrade the drive unit. :-))
Thanks for the info Sparks,
I just ordered the new shaft to be cut, so I'll have to live with the life of my new bearings--I bet I'll be upgrading to a bigger, fancier orange machine before they go out. :)
The new bearings were the exact same specs as the Link-Belts--my bearing man is an absolute guru. In fact, I think they may be a little better than the than the originals because the blocks are spherical ground to accommodate imperfect alignment.
The explanation I got from Woodmizer parts on why y'all didn't supply replacement parts besides the whole new shaft was that customers would not properly seat/set the replacement bearings that you used to sent them and that they would subsequently fail early, causing you a headache.
Can you please elaborate on why the oil bath bearing would be superior? (I assume this has something to do with heat).
BTW, why were no zirc fittings installed on the original Link-Belt bearings? (Instead of the little allen head plugs)
It seems to me that if zircs had been installed and greasing added to the maintenance schedule, these things may have lasted longer. :-/
Thanks!
Urban, you wouldn't have the diameter of that shaft and a rough guess how far apart the pillow blocks are located on the shaft and how far overhung the bandwheel is?
From the pics I'd guess 1.75" diameter shaft, 4" between centres of bearings and nearly no overhang?
;) just curious!
Ken
The oil bath can handle more heat and the oil keeps the bearings cool. You just change the oil evey 500hrs and it's good to go
Some brearings come from the manufacturer without zirts. I wonder if a grease fitting would fit where the plug is?
Most of us here don't get to see the older mills that often to be real familiar with these kind of issues. Thanks
Slowzuki,
I'll send you a little diagram later ;)
We just got the new shaft back and we're up to $180.
I'll post pics as soon as we have the wheels trued.
Sparks,
I hear ya on the oil bath being cooler--I just got this pathology about fixin' things myself--right but <$. Heck, I wouldn't have bought a 1990 Mizer if I wasn't. ;D
8)
Do those original bearings have concentric locking collars,
Well at least this bearing did not fail because of being over greased? Was the machine ever pressure washed that water was forced into the bearing causing rust that locked the bearing up?
I'm amazed the pillow block lasted as long as it did. Mine went out in 91 or 92 at the same time as the oil bath was put on the market. I was given a pillow block until they could get me the oil bath. I had my oil bath put on in Newnan, Ga. when I was up there buying a line-up and service. It was my first tear-all-the-way down and line-up and I wanted to be shown rather than trust my interpretation of the book.
Most all of us were having pillow blocks go out then. It was a fairly common ailment. Somewhere around here, I probably still have the old "good" one that was taken off. :)
NOW I´ve seen cylindric and not greasable pillow block bearings. Not IRL but found them in a book here. Would never use that stuff, no one wants to change oil in them .............ever, but there is people who don´t forget to put some new grease in once or twice a year. ::)
Designing machines with pillow blocks I always do with spheric bearings and use to say "there is no straight shafts and if there is, it´s not straight after someone have worked on it."
I always write in the instructions to grease the bearings when they are rotating and not to overfill.
There is different bearings. Regular pillow block bearings are for speeds less than 500 rpm. Then the spheric is in the pilow block. If the rpm. are more you need for example "EC" or "C5" in the spec. There is some extra space in them for grease and heat. Yes, water too if high pressure washed :D
I´ve never seen high speed bearings with spheric pillow block, I don´t think it works but then use a cylindric pillow block and a spheric bearing.
It´s simple to check a bearing. If it´s too hot to hold on it´s set under stress or need to be changed.
The last thing to do is to lock one of the bearings on the shaft. Use cylindric and not bearing with adapter sleeve here. Then the shaft shall turn without any stress all the way around. Check by turning with one finger and the thumb on the shaft, not with your hand on the wheel. It´s easyer before greasing.
If the bearing is the right, perfect placed and re-greased sometimes it´ll worn well for 100 000 H in 1500rpm.
Swede.
Here's a couple shots of my new bearings and shaft . . .
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/newbearings01.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/newbearings02.jpg)
It setup near perfect on the first go and we're sawing again :)
Urban, still curious on the diameter of that shaft, it looks like a smaller type of taperlock than I expected.
Ken
Urban,
In the top photo (the one with the new pillow blocks), what is that wheel to the right of the 2-belt sheave?
I think it is the drum for the brake band.
QuoteIn the top photo (the one with the new pillow blocks), what is that wheel to the right of the 2-belt sheave?
Slowzuki,
It's a 1 7/16" diameter shaft.
2 1/4" overhang for the bandwheel.
Tom,
Though the mill's a 1990, it only had 680 hours on it when I got it and I've only put another 500 or so on it myself.
When I saw the absence of the zircs and read in the specs on the original Link-Belt bearings that they were "greasable", I figured that a lot of early Mizer owners had problems. IMHO, Mizer screwed up on this one--they should have had this in the regular maintenance schedule. There certainly should have been mention of it in the revised manual that I purchased when I got my mill. :-/
Swede,
We'll be checkin' some heat today--gotta get caught up from 8 hours downtime ;D
D._Frederick,
What me? Wash my mill? :o
Hmmm, I suspect I will be replacing the 1.25" shafting on the mill I'm building...
QuoteSlowzuki,
It's a 1 7/16" diameter shaft.
slowzuki :o 1.25" ! *ujujuj*
You need 1 7/16 or one day that wheel will run after You. :D
Building a mill for 1.25-1.38" blade on 20" wheels (what´s on Amerika-Sågen + 1 7/16 shaft) I would use 1,75" shaft.
Swede.
Yes, it is the brake band.
The original bearings were sold to us as non-greasable by the supplier. A few years later we went to the cylindrical bearings. We now build the replacement part, with the pillow block bearings, with greasable bearings.
We went through a lot of growing pains in the first 5 years as a sawmill builder. Since we could not rely on outside sources to supply us with quality parts we built alot of our own. By doing this we are in control of most if not all of the process.
What we learned in the early days has brought us to the best sawmill builder in the world. We will always continue to make the mills better and last longer.
Most of the homemade mill builders know the trial and error they run in to. Wood-Mizer was no different. To say Wood-Miser "screwed up" on a mill built over 10 years ago is like telling Ford they "screwed up' on the model A. We have better quality and improved parts for our older mills. Customer support second to none. Not many manufactures, in any field, would be concerned about equipment that old. We are and are always here for those customers! May your sawdust fly and you stacks grow high. :-)
Sparks,
I don't want to make a mountain outta a mole hill, but . . .
"The original bearings were sold to us as non-greasable by the supplier"
I saw the Link-Belt specs on the original bearings--it clearly stated "re-greasable" and they were tapped for zircs.
"We now build the replacement part, with the pillow block bearings, with greasable bearings"
That's funny, I was told that you no longer supplied parts for the pillow block setup and that I had to switch to the oil bath version.
"To say Wood-Miser "screwed up" on a mill built over 10 years ago is like telling Ford they "screwed up' on the model A. We have better quality and improved parts for our older mills. Customer support second to none."
Wow now, I never said Woodmizer's customer support was lacking--I believe I started this thread with compliments. What I did say, and stand by, is that y'all screwed up by never mentioning the problem with the original bearings in your revised manuals.
I bet a lot of folks saw those original bearings fail because the grease schedule wasn't followed. Making mention of this admitted fault in your revised manual would have almost certainly saved me considerable downtime and money.
To attempt to excuse the problem by saying that you "could not rely on outside sources to supply us with quality parts" is like telling me that I had better go get the specs on every non-Mizer part on the mill and double check your engineering.
I do thank you for being there for users of your older models--it's probably the only reason I didn't build my own.
Perhaps we owners back then were flying by the seat of our pants too. I was amazed at Woodmizers response to my bearing plight. they said they had been having trouble with them and told me of the oil bath bearing. I bought one right away but it couldn't be delivered immediately. As I recall, I wasn't charged for the second pillow blocks.
The oil bath was $280, I think, and well worth the price. It has worked flawlessly for years.
I didn't take Spark's post as being defensive at all. I think he was just trying to explain some history from his end. What he said makes sense.
For safety's sake, the pillow blocks are encased in sheet metal that makes them difficult to get to. I can understand Woodmizers effort to use a bearing that might withstand lack of maintenance. It is also the reason that they developed the oil bath rather than just sending out a bunch of zerks. I didn't read the "rely on outside sources" comment as a cop-out. I read it as the reason that they decided to make their own parts to insure that the mill would work.
Hmmm-m I don't think I updated my manual with the fact that I installed that part either.
Your take on Sparks comments may be right on Tom--maybe I'm readin' 'em wrong.
Again, I am a PROUD Woodmizer owner and operator--I brag on the cantilevered design and Woodmizer's quality and service all the time.
But . . .
I still don't see how they could let a such a major design change slip through when they published REVISED manuals--most other changes are noted.
Heck, that's why I bought a new set of manuals from Woodmizer when I got my mill--I already had the one that came with it.
And thats the reason I bought a mill make with car parts.
I can go to NAPA and get the parts that wear out.
All but the tires and blades
That's the best way to do it, Rod. When I started, I didn't know a sealed bearing from a V-belt. While most of my parts were available over the counter, It seemed that the auto parts houses never had them. They could order them and have them in a day or two, but, so could Woodmizer. I just called them and felt comfortable knowing that I would get the right part. I got a lesson on how to fix the mill each time too.
If you are a wrench turner at heart you don't have to worry about stuff like that. I'm not, never have been but envy those who are. I just wanted to saw wood.
Tom,I guess the reason I went the way I did is cause I know more about cars then I do about logs.
;)
Well howdy MM!
That's quite a sales pitch ;) :D
;D
Knock on wood, we've ran three WM mills over the past 10 years and some and never had a problem with the oil bath bearings – leaking or otherwise.
Our 2002 model came with a simple sight gage that shows you the level of the oil. It's a clear plastic tube connecting the top of the housing with the bottom of the housing and some marks indicating full or low. The older models didn't have that feature.
MM certainly knows WM as he worked with them a number of years. But I can list a good number of the WM people I know that also have their own mills. Maybe replacement parts are not as much a problem as they are with Joe Public out there with an old mill. But their exposure to the mills are not limited. WM runs their own mills in producing lumber for their specialty woodworks business. The Tech-Support guys have many years of experience and trust their judgment and value their guidance.
I don't know if I'm getting older and wiser or just older. But I've witnessed all my life people that have spared no expense in time, effort and inconvenience to save a penny. (My Dad is a case study on pinching a penny. He once went a couple of weeks with a non-functioning commode while he looked for just that one piece made of plastic that the float rod screws into. It was the principle of the thing - The hardware store wouldn't break open a $7 replacement valve kit to sell him just that one little part he needed. He Super-Glued, splinted and by trial and error triumphed over the greedy hardware store.)
BTY, In a conversation with another mill manufacture pointing out their use of the pillar block bearings, he commented that they replace more bearings for people that take "good care" of their mills than ones that didn't. Said that over greasing the bearings lead to premature failure. Had the same thing told to me by the manufacture of our firewood processor - said, hit them once a year with one pump of the handle – no more.
I don't understand the reasoning why old grease in bearings is better the having new grease in them.
Over greasing a bearing will cause the bearing to have to push through the grease thefore causing more friction = heat producing premature failure, also you stand to cause the grease seal on pillow block bearings to fail when you grease to much because you cant see how much is in the bearing , so we grease till it pushes out the seal then it will not keep grease in and lets trash infilterate . All that being said the bearings that failed should have had provision for grease , in the picture it looks as if linkbelt did provide it but wood miser should have told it in their manual to remove the plug and put in a zirk , you might have had to put the plug back after greasing but still might have extened the life of the bearing.
Today I had to put a new blad on because the old one broke. Then I saw the pulling wheel moved a little inside the bearing (SKF SY 308M). :o Tried to turn the 2 screws into the shaft but........and I couldn´t loose them. Took the wheel and pillow block off and found that the screws had been loose for some time! I think from the begining! >:( There was some wear on the shaft. I found a new TNT bearing the same size in the workshop but with a longer internal ring and it fited the pillowblock! ;D
Put it all together (tightened the screws ;D ) and it works perfect. :)
Swede.
Wood-Mizer has some highly trained technicians who work on the mills as well as troubleshoot them over the phone. Some are not as experienced as others but they strive to to be the best they can with the knowledge they have. If they don't have the answer they'll get someone who does. It is that attitude to learn that has made Wood-Mizer the company it is today. Those who want to "change parts" usually aren't around long. As far as going "by the book", find another company that uses warranty as a guideline, not a line drawn in the sand. Many customers will have witnessed this personally. If I sounded a little stand-offish in my last post I appologize. I was just trying to shed some history, as Tom said.
I'm here for any Wood-Mizer owner who needs their problems handled.
Happy sawing.
"I Love it when a plan comes together".
Hannibal
No! Not that Hannibal. The George Peppard, Hannibal of A-Team. :D
I don´t want to change parts but do if I have to. Thats why I sell Mattei air compressors and choose components for conveyors the way I do. Thats why I take 3mm sheet metal when other manufacturers takes 2mm..
Building log lift, rotation and clamping on Amerika-Sågen i use pillow block bearings and brass bushings (with a nipple for greasing) when others just make a hole.
I sometimes get irritated when things made of others breakes. If things made by my self breakes I get wild! ;D I´m not wild every year. :)
Swede.
;)
I feel bad about this topic going negative on Mizer . . . :-[
I was not and am not upset, disappointed or dissatisfied with my LT-30--it is a fabulous machine. :)
Mizer support was quick to help me with my second-hand machine--something that not all companies would do.
Support also explained to me that the bearing problem and the resulting switch to oil bath was more about improper setting of replacement bearings and gave me specs so that I could find/fabricate replacements myself.
I did get a little riled when Sparks seemed to come off as if I had made the wrong decision to replace the pillowblocks myself and seemed to question my knowledge of mechanical engineering. (I ain't no engineer, but I have built a few cool tools that do exactly waht they're supposed to :))
Anyhow, my mill's running top notch now that I've got a new shaft, bearings and drive belts.
Woodmizer is definitely superior to the maker of my truck, who, for some bizarre reason switched from double timing chains w/metal guides to single chain and plastic guides despite the prior excellent reputation of their engines. :'(
They won't admit their mistake and will only sell replacement plastic guides at a high price, forcing all their owners to go to aftermarket parts makers for decent (metal backed) replacements ???
Plastic timing chain guides. Sounds like cost reducing in manufacturing. Probably saved the company $2.00 per car while increasing customer out of pocket. They probably sell the plastic one for more than the metal. :-)
Yup, cheaper and supposedly another couple HP due to single chain :-/
This is the bain of post1984 22re motors--so many have failed that 3 aftermarket builders have stepped in to provide suitable replacements.
I got a whole kit--chain, sprockets, tensioner, gaskets and METAL backed guides for $64 8)
Toyota wanted $195 for the same stuff, but same old plastic guides >:(
Love my Toyota, but hate dealer parts service ;D
;)
MM was at Wood-Mizer today and informed one of our tech's that the "parts changer" statement was directed at me. That's fine.
I've have helped troubleshoot quite a few people on this forum and have not had a complaint yet.
Why he wants to attack my reputation is beyond me.
If he's going to go after me, I will stay away from any post he is on so others do not have to read it. If he enters one I replied to I will not respond to keep this type of banter off the forum. If he continues I will leave the forum so others will not be subjected to any more of it. I still be available at the e-mail address listed. Thanks
Don't even THINK about leaving the forum. There are several reps from manufacturers here, and ALL of them contribute greatly, without pushing their products. Problems are usually worked out here, with no hostility. Keeping it off the forum is best, but, don't leave. You are among friends here. ;D
Any major problems and the forum cops step right in. :) :)
Ditto to deadheader. Sparks, I'm only 6 hours from Indy and I'll come down there and tie ya to a computer, or sit on ya, or sumpthin if I hear another word about leaving us. We all appreciate your input IMMENSELY! Now get back in there and hep sumbody. ;)
I had a problem with my accuset last winter, the guy I talked to said I needed to talk to the electrical expert (that was you) I left a message and got a call back promptly. Fixed me up with the parts I needed and told me to call if I had problems, all with a good attitude.
Not sure what burr's under MM's hide but I appreciate your input here. Sometimes no matter what you do there's no pleasing folks. ;)
Changing out even a suspected bad part is the most expedient way to repair or at least isolate a problem. Sometimes that's not possible and you have to resort to repairing an existing part or substituting for something else. I can't see why there is an argument here.
Just Wednesday morning I opened the trunk on my Buick Roadmaster to put something in it and on closing the automatic closing deal didn't work. It wouldn't pull the trunk lid all the way down. I've fiddle farted with it a couple of times and put more than two hours into and still have not figure out how come it's not working or what is failing to keep it from working. I talked to a body shop buddy this evening. He said; "We just change them out." and couldn't offer any help as to what may be wrong or how to fix it.
I'm going to take it all apart in the morning and break it once and for all and then go to the junk yard and get another.
BTW, I was trying one more thing this evening to get it to kick on and Mary suggested I call Sparks. I may have to but I think that would be stretching customer service a little too far. (Anyone got his home phone number? I wouldn't want to bother him at work for a non-WM problem.)
Well golly dang, just sitting here reading and thinking about things. (yall just better be happy I'm a philosophizing rather than singing). ;D I'm pretty sure that about anything that's made that's as complicated as a saw would take a lot of engineering and improving as you go, and a certain amount of a balancing act, believe it or not. Now I figure back in the olden days them loggers, at least some of em. was proud to get ahold of them newfangled chain saws. Even if they was big, and heavy, and loud and would take two pretty good sized men to handle em!. Now, look at how much them ole chainsaws has been improved and upgraded over the years, and look at the chainsaw companies that's come, and gone during the process.
I bet yer wandering what I meant about a balancing act ain't cha. Ok dokey. I betcha they could have built one of them first saws with a freight train engine, and who knows that ole diesel might still be running and just need a new bar and chain. But, where ya gonna get one or two men that can tote around a freight train engine saw, and how in the world could they afford to buy it if they could. Taint possible, so the better companies come out with lighter light weight semi affordable aluminum engines that one man could tote, and shoot fire, they're still working on improving them engines, and chains. So, who'd it take to build, and design them chainsaws over all the years. Why loggers with the demand for em, engineers, and learned people who was smart enough to figure out what parts they'd need ta put in, and build em, aka part changers!.
Ain't that what ole Henry Ford did? Pretty much take parts that he could buy, build, or design and cobble together an old car of some kind? Funny, I still see all kinds of Fords going down the road but none of em still look like them first ones he built. Somebody must figured out something different along the way. Bet it was lotsa folks working for him. AND..... Ya know what he did as he started, he tried to build a car that folks could AFFORD!. AND, was pretty dang successful at it! ...........
Whoa, sorry, I'm a getting carried away again. Let me try to get back to some kind of point before yall all get mad at me!!!
Everybody agrees Woodmizer is a good company and they try to take care of their customers, right. Right. Ok, that's settled. Now, did ya want em to build one from the beginning that had a freight train engine, ocean ship sized shafts, bearings as big as a house that wouldn't ever break or seize up.......
Whoap there ya go, I' ranting again........ Let me try one more time to get back on track again. I see em as from the beginning as a really good company that tried to build a really good AFFORDABLE saw and have backed that up with their customer service, and improvements . AND as a smart enough company to get good people to make these design changes and improvements. Takes ALL kind of the right people to make this happen along the way, no matter what ya call em!!!!
NOW, let me conclude by saying this for anybody that may be reading that don't know me. As far as I know I've never even seen a real live woodmizer, but I've got LOTS of friends that have and I'm a pretty sure that they agree that Woodmizers, and the Woodmizer company is among the best and continually work to improve their product. All without putting a million dollar freight train engine that nobody could afford on em!!!!! :)
Ckate Thanks
You shaped that up pretty well, and well said. Hope the point you make was well taken. Bet next year there may even be another improvement, not even thought about this year.
Sparks - stick around please. Think of the stick-to-it-ness that the WM founders, especially Dan Laskowski, had to muster up. I remember Dan as a special dreamer and do-er.
Sparks,
Don't you leave this forum!!!!! I don't care what MM said. You know, good or bad every one has an opinion .Well here is mine. I have met you in person, talked to you many times at great length on the phone. Every issue has always been resolved to my satisfaction. It is nice to know there are customer service reps that really care about their customers satisfaction. Not just the company line or their paycheck. That means alot when you invest over 30 grand in a piece of equipment that you make you're living with.
With that said . I think everyone on this forum that owns a WM mill will agree, continue posting!!!!!
Gary
Sparks;
Even me, not running orange, think we all want You here, so don´t leave!
All people don´t have the knowledge and possibility to build, update, repair or even change parts on their saw mill but everyone knows WoodMizer is the best company to take care of problems coming up after their saw mill is fully payed. That must be worth a lot for them WM owners, if they know about it, or not.
Swede.
I told you about the shaft with some wear and the new bearing with longer internal ring. This is what happend yesterday. >:( I heard a noise now and then and also found that the blade had moved some on the wheels. Turned the mill off and found that the internal ring was broken! Probably the wear left to much space between the shaft and the bearing.
So now I have to make a new shaft, take my last bearing and put it all together again. I´ll also add with a disc for a brake laying here anywhere. :) That´s what I´ve been up to for a while, I don´t want the blade flying even when the belt isn´t stretched. In a future perhaps I make a function to slow the engine down, unstretch the belt and activate the brake with a lever. Perhaps also an emergency stop by a wire all the way along the saw mill. 8) Yes, I like bells and wistlers ;D
The shaft is Ø 40mm so if you are building your own saw mill, don´t use too small shaft!
Swede.
Bearings isn´t easy! >:( Today the bearing with long internal ring broked agin! >:( .........just where the two stop screws are placed. I don´t know why.
So now I´ll buy expensive SKF with adapter sleeve($75x4=$300) , there is one new type fiting in my old pillow blocks ( SY208M) and i can still use a 40 mm shaft! I´ve never seen them before.. Usaly you have to take a 35mm shaft for pillow block 208 and bearing with adapter sleeve for that reason it takes more radial room than other bearings.
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?paf_dm=shared&paf_gm=content&paf_gear_id=4400006maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=6_1_2c
I didn´t put the disc on for the brake. I´ll take a strap of leather around the shaft and bolt anywhere, so the strap OR the belt is stretched.
Does anyone use such a brake?
Swede. (still alive)
Swede,
May be the pillow block bearing system is too light for your mill design. Some mill manufactures here have gone to tapered roller bearings for the band wheels, they have greater load capacity. You may have to do some redesign and go to this type bearing to eliminate your problems.