When sawing framing lumber, 2x4's may be sawn from green logs at 1 5/8" x3 5/8" (assuming shrinkage when drying). Do you calculate the board footage to determine the fee the customer pays by multiplying 2"x 4" or the actual sizes sawn? My intention is to charge a board foot rate based on the numerical size of the boards rather than the actual size but would like to know what is the common practice among you with more experience.
As an example, eighteen 2"x8"x12' would be 288bf.
The same stack measured at 1.625" x7.375" x 12',(assuming a fresh rough sawn 2"x8" is 7 3/8" wide) would be 215bf.
At the end of the day, these differences can make quite a difference on the final price. Thanks for your suggestions,
Caveman
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_1436%7E0.jpg)
I charge for the actual size ,not air. Steve
I always cut to the inch size less kerf in other words a 2x4 is 1 7/8x 3 7/8. I'll cut anything they want but its considered special order if it varies from my standard. Frank C.
Actual size.
Use this to your advantage 2x4x8 =5.3 bf $3.00 at Lowes. You can cut him same 1.5 x 3.5 x 8 =3.5 bf for $1.23
at .35 bf rate. That's using his logs he still has to stack and dry and take some loss on a few that will go crook. Just my way.
Tim
I figure it like this, anything over 1-1/2" is considered 2". Some folks want full 2x's while others prefer closer to dimensional. Changing the pattern to suit any request is really not an issue with the Accuset works, so special cuts make no difference to me. I just need to know what is required. I have noticed quite the dissatisfaction in recent years from folks regarding lumber yard quality. It seems one has to sort through bundles just to get straight boards,
Actual dimensions. No air for me, either. A 1.5" board is not a 2" board. It is a 1.5" board. Calling a board a 2x4 is just a product name, and while calling a 1.5" board a 2" board is the convention in the Industry, when the day is done, it is still a 1.5" board if you measure it.
I do not sell lumber, I provide a sawing service. I saw whichever dimension the customer wants, (actual or dimension) and the price is the same. I do not adjust my sawing rate for sawing different dimensions.
If the customer prefers that I saw "hourly rate" then that is OK too. My job is to provide a quality product and satisfy the customer. All charges and rates are discussed and signed off on before the sawing begins.
I'm a mobile sawyer and when I saw the customers logs I always ask if they want the lumber sawed by the quarters scale (which allows for shrinkage) or just go by the yard-stick!
Usually customers will say I would like 2x4's as close to 2" x 4" as possible, so I just saw by the yardstick and the lumber will be half the kerf off!
All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size. This has been the tradition for over a century.
However, a large number of people selling 2x4x8' pieces (5.33 bf per piece) will sell on the basis of the number of pieces and not the footage. In other words, one buys 400 2x4s, 12' long and not 3200 bf of 2x4s.
I have seen several sawyers that have two prices available, one based on the nominal footage and one based on the actual size, but the bottom line is the same for either one--Magicman already said this.
I mill 2x4 at 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 unless the customer request a different variation. At the end of the day i measure the stack, no air but some sawdust between layers, in some cases the stack moves so I tally pieces and multiply 1.63 x 3.63 x length x pieces x $.30 bft
Since i do not have a lumber yard I am not selling a product that the century old scale books refer to but rather a service using modern thin kerf saws to get the most recovery from the customers logs. I don't like being charged for air so I dought my customers would either.
If my customer wants 2x4 or 4x12 it still cost the same to mill the deck of logs, as the recovery from the logs will be close to the same. Where using the methods in the old scale books and milling 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 you will end up with considerably more bft out of the same logs on paper only which don't add studs to the walls.
Good question as there is two sides to this question. If you are selling out of a lumber yard then it is a diferent senerio as it is a product not a service.
I'm not selling them wood just a service. At the same time I don't want them wondering if they're getting charged if I have to stop sawing for some reason, so I charge by the board foot based on the nominal size. I have an example on my contract so it's there in writing. It's how my prices are based, it's understood up front, and I've never had a complaint. If they ask for 2x4's I'll ask if they want an actual 2x4 or if they want "store bought" sizes. Same goes for 1" boards. If they want 1/2" thick cedar for example, I charge based on 1x's. It takes longer to saw two 1/2" boards than one 1" board, they wind up paying more than if I charged by the actual thickness, but they're paying for a service and not the lumber.
One thing I've found is that most people I've sawn for figure the lumber needed for a project by nominal board foot. They figure they need Xbf of 2x4, and not Xbf of 1 1/2x 3 1/2 if that makes since. So at the end of each day, my saw tally is more useful for them to see where the BF is according to what they are needing. Also, I charge 250/mbf, so a 2x4x8 or a 1.5x3.5x8 both cost you $1.32 for me to saw it. ;)
I dont do any fancy charging, its either a 2x4, 2x6, 2x8 etc
i don't charge for something that isn't there :) when you buy logs you pay for whats there in the pile ,not 25% less
At least some people have integrity. Steve
I reckon I have no integrity, but when I buy a 2x4 from the lumber yard, I have never seen a full 2x in any stretch of the imagination. I am real glad I chat with folks with integrity, I guess when we saw 5/8" or less stock, it is figured the same by footage? There is a scale, and a cut is a cut. Just saying, never had any complaints. Lots of praise, quality speaks volumes. And there is volume when done proper and not in a rush for bdft'g.
I really don't see what quality has to do with a 2 x4 or a 1.5 x 3.5. I saw quality and don't charge for air. Steve
Steve, I did for quite a while, found I lost in the matter, If it works, then use it is my motto. No disrespect intended at all for those who chose their scale.
drobertson
awhile ago you were outraged at the price i would charge for 1 board, remember that? something to the effect "i was gouging" you said. well seems to me if you charge to saw something that isnt what it is, you are in effect gouging right? :(
QuoteI saw quality and don't charge for air.
lady
Whatever trips your trigger, as long as you and the buyer are on the same page.
Others do it different, and doesn't mean they are wrong, or more "right"... IMO ;)
Also, for this thread:
A "2x4" has long been just an identifying name for a product, and has also for a long not meant to be 2" x 4" size of wood.
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on April 19, 2014, 09:27:25 AM
All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size. This has been the tradition for over a century. ...
In Canada the NLGA (National Lumber Grades Authority) specifies how
softwood lumber is be
measured. Specifically, the calculation is based on the
nominal dimensions, while the length is rounded
down to the nearest foot.
The whole purpose of this standard is to put everyone on the same page. Without some kind of standard you have the risk that someone will accuse you of selling them a 1-19/32" x 3-19/32" while you charged them for a 1-5/8" x 3-5/8".
The rules also allow the buyer and seller to establish a contract based on whatever standards they wish.
Having said all that, I am going to charge the customer enough for a
piece of wood to pay for the raw material, cover my operating expenses, pick up a share of my overheads, and put enough in my pocket to make it worth my while to saw.
For the guy off the street I quote a price per linear foot for a given dimension. For the contractor familiar with the NLGA rules I'll quote a price per BF.
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on April 19, 2014, 09:27:25 AM
All the large companies and all the grading associations for softwood lumber will count the BF based on the nominal size, not the actual size. This has been the tradition for over a century.
This is for equalizing the "sale" of lumber not for providing a service. Many here do both sales and service and some do one or the other. So finding one answer that fits everyone is as Gene stated
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on April 19, 2014, 09:27:25 AM
I have seen several sawyers that have two prices available, one based on the nominal footage and one based on the actual size, but the bottom line is the same for either one
We all have our reasons to charge the way we do and both methods are sound.
If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same. If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4.
You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same. They are clearly not the same.
That is a good point when I worked in the production mill we milled white fir at 1.575 +or- .005 and Doug fir at 1.625 this was all checked thru out the day with calipers that down loaded into the computer and made corrections to saw sets if needed. Once stacked it went directly to kiln infeed doug fir was 72 hrs white fir 56 hrs in the kilns, using those grade rules that Gene refers to to skip plane down to 1.55. Everything went thru a high speed four head planer that shot out over a million bft in one day. (Two ten hr shifts) That high speed planer that takes off just a few thousands cost as much to install and run as the sawmill its self. It is required to meet the rules in the grade books. The old 1940 Woods planer done the same job but at ΒΌ the speed.
Grade rules are there to insure equal product and the production mills adhere to all the rules that apply rather than picking out just one. We had weekly meeting to insure that they were being followd to the letter.
Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same. If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4.
You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same. They are clearly not the same.
As Backwoods points out, it's also kiln dried. (Sorta.)
Good point.
Quote from: beenthere on April 19, 2014, 08:36:52 PM
...........as long as you and the buyer are on the same page.
I have posted no replies in this thread but have read everything twice.
Beenthere made the best statement IMO and this is how I operate. :)
I guess this is the way I see it but it certainly doesn't mean its right. Sawing lumber and selling lumber are different animals but I am going to focus on sawing. This applies to sawing someone else logs and not your own. If the thickness is less than an inch, its treated as an inch. If its greater than an inch its treated as its actual size. 1.5" = 1.5" not 2" If you charge by the bd/ft you actually make more money sawing thicker stock and are actually doing less sawing. A 12x12 cant at 2" takes 5 passes and at 1" takes 11 passes. You make more money sawing thicker stock already so I think its reasonable to charge at the "no air" rate.
However, if you can get it you might as well take it. As long as the customer knows going in that they are being charged for "air" I have no problem with it. It would seem to me that from a customer relations standpoint that "you get what you pay for" would result in happier clients.
Geoff
A board foot is a volume measure that can be mathematically defined. Just the same as a gallon, cord of wood, or yard of gravel. Of course the government felt the need to step in to settle disputes.
Most customers have no idea what a board foot looks like but they do know it is a volume measure and they should be able to use that to get a fair cost comparison between sawyers.
For the sawyer that includes air, that can be explained in the fine print or glossed over in conversation. Of course he could never honestly quote a board foot price unless he included the exceptions. And I doubt most of the folks we saw for would understand those exceptions or if they did, agree with them.
Now if my board foot charge was 40 cents but I actually get 60 cents when air sawing 2 X 4's I wouldn't do much sawing. 60 cents bf puts the 2 X 4 cost way over lumber yard prices if transportation, additional processing, and incidental fees are included. I doubt if many explain the board foot rate this way. It would be too complicated as the rate changes with each dimension.
Of course one needs to be extra diligent in this day and age. I bought a gallon (http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/paint-thinner-mineral-spirits-1-gal) of mineral spirits at TSC the other day. When I got home I happened to notice it wasn't quite as big as my other gallon. I looked at the label and it said 120 ounces. All perfectly legal as agreed upon by seller and the not so smart buyer.
I don't saw air.
Easy for me, All my customers all want full size lumber. We have a snow load up here. :snowball: :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D
if I am sawing for someone ,that someone tells me what size lumber they want and I saw that size lumber, fairly simple. if they buy my lumber they pay cash for my lumber regardless of dimensions... I still charge .25 cents a bdft to saw logs for other people, you would be amazed at the amount of folks that travel on because that's too high. I always tell them that my dad would do it for .30 cents.
also those people I saw for gets the lumber out of their logs, all of it... not just what the scale says. that's how I make money.
pss, when I buy logs I pay folks for what the scale stick says is in the log, not what I may saw out of it.thats how I make money too. ;D
If the customer pays 2"x8" bf prices for 1 1/2" x 7 1/4" lumber he still realizes some advantages over buying full sized boards.
1. 16 d nails are the proper length for fastening
2. He gets more boards per log for the same money while my blade makes more passes and the off-loader has more boards to stack and more stickers to use
3. They will dry a little quicker
4. Commonly used framing brackets will fit (Simpson strong ties, etc.)
5. It is easier to match up and repair structures made out of store bought lumber
Recently, Jmoore and I sawed three logs for a nice older fellow. We gave him the option of full size or store bought sizes out of his logs. He chose the store bought sizes. When he came to pick up his lumber, I gave him the price for the actual board footage for the actual sizes sawn. He wanted to pay the full price, which was over $50 more than what I wrote on the invoice. We split the difference and he was excited that he got a really good bargain. Then he began complaining about how much he spent at the box store for PT lumber recently. He said he paid twice as much and got less than half as much. We also through in quite a few feebies (a few smaller thickness boards that were not wasted in slabs getting to the proper sized cants and some boards with some bark but that were usable as shorter boards).
I think as long as the sawyer and the customer are on the same page and agree, either way is acceptable.
We enjoyed visiting for an hour or more after I loaded his lumber. He is already planning the next sawing job for us and even asked me about planing some boards he had sawn years ago by someone else.
Thank you to everyone for your responses and opinions.
Caveman
:-X
So if we put a 100 hp diesel on we should really increase production over a 50 hp diesel? Steve
sure it would as long as the mill was designed to handle a 100 hp motor.
hp ??
Fuzzy mind this morning, posted on the wrong thread. Steve
Been reading through all the rational arguments for pricing here....good stuff, all. When I worked for a small mill years ago, we sawed full dimension, but planed to 1-5/8" x Y-5/8".....just they way the old boy did it..... Some 2x4's these days measure 1-3/8's by 3-3/8.....shrinkage? I don't think so......
For custom milling, it's best to clarify with the customer....and if they don't know what they want tell them how you do it and stick with it....too many choices and they go all over the shop.
Something else to remember..... Ungraded lumber, IF it is allowed in a structure--can never tell from one area to the next these days--usually must be full dimension, or even a size or two larger than the conventional, graded, s4s piece if it structural..... I've run in to this several times as a builder, and while working for the mill..... I even studied to be a grader so that our mill could stop having to oversize beams and we could increase sales.....but the costs of maintaining a grade stamp was too high for the amount we sold which needed grading. If only I could have traveled around to the other mills in the area and offered a per-diem grading service I would have worked harder to make it work....but the rules attach the grader to the mill
Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same. If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4.
You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same. They are clearly not the same.
I view it this way as well, with some caveats for dried and surfaced lumber.
If I'm selling a milling service, I charge for the actual board foot milled, with lumber milled less than 4/4 billed as 4/4. Thus, 1-5/8" is measured as 1-5/8", not 2". We charge extra per bd ft for quartersawing as well as large beams due to the additional losses and associated costs.
When I'm selling kiln dried lumber, I sell by the "dry, rough sawn measure.". This means that in order to sell a 5/4 QSWO board that is kiln dried, I have to mill a 1-7/16" green board to allow for the extra shrinkage that QS oak experiences while drying. I used to saw at 1-3/8" for 5/4, but had too many boards that would not S2S at 1" so I upped my milling thickness by 1/16". This is especially beneficial on wide, QS boards to help ensure that they will S2S across the entire width and length of the board.
I take the time to explain the drying process to customers (as well as grade sawing), and educate them about proper milling sizes / patterns in order to yield dry lumber that meets their needs.
KD QS oak stock sells for more per bd ft not only because of the drying costs, but also because of the drying
losses. If I flat saw the entire oak log, just from drying losses alone I will net another 5% of dry yield. This is because FS oak shrinks 5- 6% in thickness versus 10 - 12% for QS oak.
When I sell S2S (which for me is 1 face flattened, second face dimensioned and both faces surfaced) stock, I charge for the rough sawn board footage plus the S2S costs. If the board is extremely wide, it may require a 5/4 rough sawn blank in order to produce a 3/4" S2S finished board, and I charge accordingly.
Quote from: scsmith42 on September 07, 2014, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
If you sell a 2x4 that is 1.5" x 3.5" and it is planed and finished on all four sides, then I can see charging as if it is a 2x4 (in terms of BF) you buy at the store because it is the same. If you rough saw a 1.5" x 3.5" piece that not planed and finished on all four sides, it is a 1.5" x 3.5" board, not a 2x4.
You cannot call a rough sawn unfinished board the same as a planed and finished-all-four-sides board the same. They are clearly not the same.
I view it this way as well, with some caveats for dried and surfaced lumber.
If I'm selling a milling service, I charge for the actual board foot milled, with lumber milled less than 4/4 billed as 4/4. Thus, 1-5/8" is measured as 1-5/8", not 2". We charge extra per bd ft for quartersawing as well as large beams due to the additional losses and associated costs.
When I'm selling kiln dried lumber, I sell by the "dry, rough sawn measure.". This means that in order to sell a 5/4 QSWO board that is kiln dried, I have to mill a 1-7/16" green board to allow for the extra shrinkage that QS oak experiences while drying. I used to saw at 1-3/8" for 5/4, but had too many boards that would not S2S at 1" so I upped my milling thickness by 1/16". This is especially beneficial on wide, QS boards to help ensure that they will S2S across the entire width and length of the board.
I take the time to explain the drying process to customers (as well as grade sawing), and educate them about proper milling sizes / patterns in order to yield dry lumber that meets their needs.
KD QS oak stock sells for more per bd ft not only because of the drying costs, but also because of the drying losses. If I flat saw the entire oak log, just from drying losses alone I will net another 5% of dry yield. This is because FS oak shrinks 5- 6% in thickness versus 10 - 12% for QS oak.
When I sell S2S (which for me is 1 face flattened, second face dimensioned and both faces surfaced) stock, I charge for the rough sawn board footage plus the S2S costs. If the board is extremely wide, it may require a 5/4 rough sawn blank in order to produce a 3/4" S2S finished board, and I charge accordingly.
smiley_thumbsup