Our fuel delivery driver told my boss that the new gasoline with ethanol will break down any 2 stroke oil. Supposedly it will take the color out as well, so at least you'd know something is up.
What's the opinion on this, fact or fiction.
If so I guess I'll be buying saw gas in town.
Allan
I don't think your fuel truck driver knows what he is talking about.. but just my opinion.
I wouldn't buy gas with ethanol off a delivery truck because it breaks down too fast, unless you go through more than like 100 gal a week. Again, just my opinion.
Supposedly they add the ethanol just before delivery at a local tank depot, and then peddle it to the local stations. Guess one doesn't know how long it sits in the underground tanks, so by the time one puts it in a car or brings a can home, the fuel may already have degraded considerably.
Too bad you cannot get fuel without ethanol delivered to your boss's tank.
I don't use a massive volume of gas so I buy it at the pump for my saws, and it has ethanol in it. The mix stays blue and so far I have not had any issues with saw failure.
I just did some reading up on it and from what I see it stops the 2 cycle oil from adhering to the parts in some way and the solution is synthetic 2 cycle. I've been using it all along with regular 2 cycle oil and it's been working just fine for me, but I use probably a gallon a week and that's what I mix.
Yup, the driver is somehow mistaken, the way I see it.
I will look into this further though.
Allan
??? I'm not 100% sure what the question in this thread is, but I'll try answering anyway. Ethanol in fuel does a few things. Ethanol like most alcohols attacks plastics, and rubber. Alcohol is also hydroscopic, aka it absorbs water.
So if the fuel you use has ethanol in it, use it within 30 days. It's also not a good idea to keep fuel in your saws when you not using them.
Other than that you won't notice much difference. Modern outdoor equipment deals with Ethanol pretty well, even though I think ethanol has no business being in gasoline period. Farmers welfare if you ask me.
I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed. I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.
Quote from: ZeroJunk on June 10, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed. I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.
Ethonal has caused huge issues, if you work on and service OPE you know this as fact. Corrosion, hardening of carb diaphragms, hard and cracked fuel lines and so on. The other issue is ethanol fuel is unstable and has a very short shelf life. The problems I see come from storage mostly, equipment used daily will have fewer issues. Water is more dense than fuel, so it sits at the bottom of the fuel tank, which is exactly where the fuel pickup sits, so we know what happens at start up...
Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 10, 2014, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: ZeroJunk on June 10, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
I think ethanol gets blamed for some stuff it had nothing to do with. But, like he says, it will bind with water, and oil won't. So, maybe you could get pockets in your fuel that don't have as much lubrication if exposed to the atmosphere. So, keep your gas containers sealed. I'm not worried about plastic, alcohol comes in a plastic container. But, I have seen old rubber based gas lines the consistency of bubble gum. New type lines will last many years ethanol or not. Plenty of loggers and tree service guys use ethanol gas every day with no problems. It is not the great boogey man. However, if you can find ethanol free around your location it is better.
Ethonal has caused huge issues, if you work on and service OPE you know this as fact. Corrosion, hardening of carb diaphragms, hard and cracked fuel lines and so on. The other issue is ethanol fuel is unstable and has a very short shelf life. The problems I see come from storage mostly, equipment used daily will have fewer issues. Water is more dense than fuel, so it sits at the bottom of the fuel tank, which is exactly where the fuel pickup sits, so we know what happens at start up...
What I am saying is that you would have had most of those problems you are blaming on ethanol with no ethanol. I worked on this stuff back when they never thought about putting ethanol in gas and you didn't just miraculously not have corrosion, water in the fuel, and failed fuel lines.
Have you ever cut a fuel line from an engine ran on ethanol fuel in half, and had a look? I've seen fuel lines get hard and stiff in a matter of a few weeks. Yes the newer fuel components handle ethanol pretty well, but it's a known major problem. This is a fact, not just my opinion. Nearly every saw, trimmer, blower and even boat engines I work on, has fuel related issues. Issues I did not see before ethanol was added to our fuel.
I repaired a Stihl weedeater yesterday and the gas line had completely disintegrated. But, once replaced it started and ran fine. I know it will eat up older gas lines. But, people are blaming it for every affliction and it is just not responsible for all of it.
Quote from: ZeroJunk on June 10, 2014, 08:13:39 PM
I repaired a Stihl weedeater yesterday and the gas line had completely disintegrated. But, once replaced it started and ran fine. I know it will eat up older gas lines. But, people are blaming it for every affliction and it is just not responsible for all of it.
I see what you're saying now, and I agree.
Our local saw shop (pretenders) have a sign with about 20 different failures ALL BLAMED on ethanol.
Whats weird is that ALL those failures used to happen 20 years before ethanol was ever put in fuel.
It can cause problems. But I feel its an AWESOME excuse for the saw shop to blame the customers fuel as the root of all evils.
Makes a great sales pitch to sell a $20 pint of mixed gas in a tin can to goobers. Fear mongering at its best, its the american marketing way!
Run ethanol fuel, dont store it in saw. Run saw out, put on shelf. Even the outboard fish killers know this one.
But hey if your an internet forester, then go get that miricle fuel thats $20 a pint.
Quote from: Chop Shop on June 11, 2014, 01:43:30 PM
Our local saw shop (pretenders) have a sign with about 20 different failures ALL BLAMED on ethanol.
Whats weird is that ALL those failures used to happen 20 years before ethanol was ever put in fuel.
It can cause problems. But I feel its an AWESOME excuse for the saw shop to blame the customers fuel as the root of all evils.
Makes a great sales pitch to sell a $20 pint of mixed gas in a tin can to goobers. Fear mongering at its best, its the american marketing way!
Run ethanol fuel, dont store it in saw. Run saw out, put on shelf. Even the outboard fish killers know this one.
But hey if your an internet forester, then go get that miricle fuel thats $20 a pint.
Not sure where you're seeing $20 pints of mixed fuel, I can buy them anywhere for around $5
You honestly don't have a clue.
What's a "Internet Forester"?
Quote from: Raider Bill on June 11, 2014, 02:02:08 PM
What's a "Internet Forester"?
Folks that have logged more hours on the net discussing saws than actually USING them.
My dry attempt at sarcasm. Huhu!
Quote from: Chop Shop on June 11, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
Quote from: Raider Bill on June 11, 2014, 02:02:08 PM
What's a "Internet Forester"?
Folks that have logged more hours on the net discussing saws than actually USING them.
My dry attempt at sarcasm. Huhu!
I like it!
And I completly agree that the paranoia about ethanol is quite exaggerated. Yes old equipment might suffer prematurely and stores love it as an exuse to sell premix. And anyone who really believes that fuel containing ethanol will deteriorate in 30 days or 3 months is also living in a paranoid world. But that is just my opinion and I will not further comment on this topic.
@justallan1,
I would have asked him if they also have premix in their programm...
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Not paranoid sir, just educated by information and experience. Just those two little things. I don't need to believe anything I've seen and experienced the issues regularly. We could get into vapor pressure issues with ethanol next if you'd like. How about the fact ethanol has less energy than petroleum. But that stuff is obviously too technical for this crowd. You guys must grow corn.lol
Andre.
I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine
Quote from: goose63 on June 11, 2014, 04:47:44 PM
I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine
I have no doubt you're telling the truth. Now go cut a few hours and report back. Nothing worse than the smell of bad fuel in the morning.The octane number will be way too low at a year old.
Quote from: goose63 on June 11, 2014, 04:47:44 PM
I have had saw gas with ethanol sit for a year found it under the bench thought ied give it a try put it in the saw and it ran just fine
I have some that had been in a Super A for 5 years and it still ran fine. I did drain it out and put some fresh in thinking five years was long enough LOL.
The biggest reason I am a little skeptical about some of the failures blamed on ethanol is that it never seems to happen to my personal stuff. I have three Lawn Boy 2 cycles, and a Robin weedeater that I have had for 25 years and I have never even drained the gas out over the winter. Same with a couple of 90's model Yamaha WaveRunners although I did rebuild the carbs on those after 20 years. I think there is some cockpit error going on besides ethanol in some cases.
That was 4or5 years ago burnt up the gallon saw ran fine dont rember the smell now but at my age i forgot what i had for breakfest
My weed eater and rideing mower i put seafome for the winter if the saws and mill set for a week or two thy get seafome
Again and again there's not one thing you can do about high tech moonshine in the gasoline .Face facts we're stuck with it .Some go off on a tangent and run race gas,aviation fuel and so called pure gas .Do they run any better,I kind of doubt it but it's something to talk about other than politics and who won the ballgame I suppose .
I personally think corn would be better served to make cattle feed and whiskey than engine fuel .Besides if they were serious about it they'd use cane or sugar beets
It started when the EPA started requiring an oxygenator in gasoline and MTBE started showing up in ground water. It probably isn't even a net benefit to the environment when you consider marginal land washed away in the mad expansion of corn and the zillion tons of fertilizer and chemicals. Add to that the reduced gas mileage and expensive auto fuel system repairs.
I do agree that ethanol has become a convenient excuse for problems. That said, E10 IS a less stable fuel than non-ethanol gas. It's less tolerant of being stored improperly or for too long. If you store it properly. use it up quickly, don't leave it in your machine's tanks, etc. you'll probably have good luck with it (particularly if you've already replaced older fuel lines).
If you don't use your saw all that often, your fuel sits for extended periods (especially in containers that don't seal all that well) and/or have developed some bad habits over the years, you are more likely to have problems. Is it the cause of all you r problems? No. Most likely the the operator is the real cause of the problems... they were just more able to get away with bad habits with the old gas formulations.
Today I replaced fuel line on a 361 and I cut the line in half (the long ways) and it wasn't smooth at all it looked like something was eating it :o
Quote from: H 2 H on June 12, 2014, 08:47:54 PM
Today I replaced fuel line on a 361 and I cut the line in half (the long ways) and it wasn't smooth at all it looked like something was eating it :o
Correct. I've seen this happen as in as little as 6 months. The newer lines are more resistant however. The fact is ethanol and most other alcohols attack the plasticizers in plastic material. This is why the lines, seals and carb diaphragms. get stiff and eventuality break. The other problem is all the particles from the inside of the lines, end up in the carb screen, blocking off jets and so on.
Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 13, 2014, 02:05:44 AM
The fact is ethanol and most other alcohols attack the plasticizers in plastic material.
In reality, the fact is that the gasoline you buy today is at least 90% a blend of some nasty volatile organic compounds (VOC's) that have always attacked the plasticizers in any flexible material and the formulation of the VOC's in gasoline changes with the seasons throught the year. So the refiners of gasoline that are still mad that MBTE they produced was found to be polluting the ground water and drinking water and was banned as an oxygenate have now convinced you ethanol bad mouthers that all the problems with gasoline engines are caused by the less than 10% component of the product.
This reminds me of the day a couple of years ago that my almost new generator quit on a very cold night so I took it back to the dealer to see what was wrong. The service man first asked me if I was buying gas with ethanol and I said yes as the book said that was OK. So he then said I should buy a can of Heat and put that in the gas tank to cure the problem. So I said to him "OK, so you are saying the problem is the alcohol in the gas is the problem so I should go buy a can of alcohol to add to the gas to cure the problem." To his credit he thought about what I said and then said "you're right, bring it into the shop and I will take a look at it."
Turned out the problem was it was so extremely cold that night that frost was building up on the throttle plate and restricting the air flow so much that it was getting too rich a fuel mixture and it fouled the plug. A new air filter and plug and it ran fine again.
I have a chain saw that I carry in the bed of my pickup and since I rarely use it much anymore it is grossly neglected. I always use gas with ethanol, never drain the mix, run it out of mix when I am through using it, nor add fuel stabilizer at any time. Yet I can dig it out, brush the snow and/or dust off if necessary, add gas if needed and it will start on the third pull every time, never failed to start and run in ten plus years and I've never had that saw serviced. Must be something wrong with me or my saw as I have no need to bad mouth ethanol. ::)
Did I ever once say every engine problem was caused by ethanol? Ethanol does caus fuel system problems. Many 2 cycle oils don't even mix properly with E10. If the voc's were always attacking fuel components, why have fuel related issues skyrocketed in recent years? Ethanol simply has no business in our fuel end of story. For people that don't work on ope I guess I could see the skepticism. The facts are out there if you choose to educate yourself on the matter, which you obviously haven't.
I do agree with you on the fuel treatments, most seem to be alcohol based. Startron is petroleum based, if I felt the need to use a treatment I guess that's the one I'd use, but I'll pass.
You all can keep running all ethanol you want, I'll stick with non E an not have any problems.
Quote from: Chop Shop on June 11, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
Folks that have logged more hours on the net discussing saws than actually USING them.
My dry attempt at sarcasm. Huhu!
Want to make a wager on that? :D
I think the guy above was referring to pre-mixed gas, not a 1/2 litre of mix oil. But, I wouldn't buy it neither. I can get no ethonal gas anyway.
Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 13, 2014, 05:24:06 AM
Did I ever once say every engine problem was caused by ethanol? Ethanol does caus fuel system problems. Many 2 cycle oils don't even mix properly with E10. If the voc's were always attacking fuel components, why have fuel related issues skyrocketed in recent years? Ethanol simply has no business in our fuel end of story. For people that don't work on ope I guess I could see the skepticism. The facts are out there if you choose to educate yourself on the matter, which you obviously haven't.
I do agree with you on the fuel treatments, most seem to be alcohol based. Startron is petroleum based, if I felt the need to use a treatment I guess that's the one I'd use, but I'll pass.
You all can keep running all ethanol you want, I'll stick with non E an not have any problems.
About all I do is work on outdoor power equipment. Remember how this thread started,
Quotenew gasoline with ethanol will break down any 2 stroke oil. Supposedly it will take the color out as well
Some of us just think the problems attributed to ethanol may be exaggerated , nothing more.
One thing that keeps being ignored is plain old water. Alcohol will absorb water from the atmosphere, especially in areas of high humidity. Bad by itself, but the killer is the water and alky won't stay mixed. They separate and the water settles to the bottom, right where it will do the most damage.
Another aggravating feature is ice. When gasoline vaporizes in the carb, it cools a bunch. Even the smallest drops of water turns to ice, plugging the jet and making for a leaned out rough running engine.
Quote from: pineywoods on June 13, 2014, 10:08:04 AM
One thing that keeps being ignored is plain old water. Alcohol will absorb water from the atmosphere, especially in areas of high humidity. Bad by itself, but the killer is the water and alky won't stay mixed. They separate and the water settles to the bottom, right where it will do the most damage.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are saying: The Water and alcohol will stay mixed with each other, but once bonded with each other, they won't stay mixed with the gas, so the alcohol and water settle to the bottom of the tank. This is known as "Phase Separation". The water and alcohol is also a corrosive mixture. Not fun if it ends up in the wrong parts of your saw.
Again, probably not an issue for someone who buys fresh gas and uses it up relatively quickly. It CAN be a problem for someone who lets it sit, particularly in humid areas and in a container that is not well sealed. Will E10 gas always wreck your saw the first time you let it sit in the tank? No. However, it has a greater chance of causing problems than non-ethanol gas.
Quote from: pineywoods on June 13, 2014, 10:08:04 AM
One thing that keeps being ignored is plain old water. Alcohol will absorb water from the atmosphere, especially in areas of high humidity. Bad by itself, but the killer is the water and alky won't stay mixed. They separate and the water settles to the bottom, right where it will do the most damage.
Another aggravating feature is ice. When gasoline vaporizes in the carb, it cools a bunch. Even the smallest drops of water turns to ice, plugging the jet and making for a leaned out rough running engine.
Precisely.
As usual everyone is affraid of the water in the fuel! My god!!! high humidity can really react with ethanol and dilute the "fuel"...
Well that is true.
As we all know certified fuel containers are made out of HDPE = high densitiy polyethylene and everyone knows how easily water can diffuse through HDPE, that's also the reason why it's used for water pipes everywhere in the world... That's also the reason why the vehicle industry has been using it for fuel tanks since ages...
So please gus keep repeating your credo so that it will sooner or later become reality....
And of course if you have your fuel rolling around in a balloned fuel can, the cap not closed or a bunch of dirt inside of course sooner or later consequences are to be expected. As usual it's up to you.
Obviously this thread reflects the fuel industries dream come true. A bunch of mature grown ups running out and dumping away their fuel out of fear that something might not be ok so that they can buy new fuel as fast as possible to dump away again...
This thread would actually be funny if it wasn't so sad...
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Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 13, 2014, 05:24:06 AM
Did I ever once say every engine problem was caused by ethanol? Ethanol does caus fuel system problems. Many 2 cycle oils don't even mix properly with E10. If the voc's were always attacking fuel components, why have fuel related issues skyrocketed in recent years? Ethanol simply has no business in our fuel end of story. For people that don't work on ope I guess I could see the skepticism. The facts are out there if you choose to educate yourself on the matter, which you obviously haven't.
I have never heard you say that any fuel problem was caused by anything other than Ethanol. That does establish your bias.
Do you have any "facts" to support your claim that "2 cycle oils don't even mix properly with E10" or is this just your bias and opinion again?
"If the voc's were always attacking fuel components, why have fuel related issues skyrocketed in recent years?" My answer to that is crude oil is not a consistent product and the composition has changed, the amount of sulfur has changed, and refining methods (catalytic cracking methods) and yields of gasoline has changed over the years. And as long as the refiners remain mad that ethanol has displaced some of their sales of product and they have a whipping boy like ethanol to blame for all the ills of gasoline, they will let gulliable people believe that all the ills of gasoline are caused by ethanol.
So I know the facts very well and can back up what I say. Can you?
The best way to avoid problems with any fuel is to buy clean fuel and keep it clean. Do not allow water to get into the fuel and don't let gas sit for long periods of time. Alcohol has always been added to fuels to absorb water but yes, there is a limit to how much water alcohol can absorb. If you put too much water in your fuel it will cause problems so don't put the DanG water in the gas. ::)
Moisture is in the atmosphere, condensation is another big factor. Plastic cans not only have oxygen transfer, but the caps normally don't seal all that well. OPE fuel tanks are vented.
I've spoken with two different oil manufactures. One is relatively close to Cincinnati, Klotz to be exact. The other was a tech from Castrol. Klotz has a few oils that won't mix with any alcohol, some will only tolerate 5 to 10% after that the oil won't mix properly and separate over time. This means you could pickup straight fuel. Stihl had to reformulate there oils, as did most every manufacture. However once again they're only good up to E10 after that it's a no go. I have a handy ethanol test kit that tells how much E is in fuel. I can tell you the amount varies wildly.
One must also think about the fact two cycle engines are lubricate by the oil in the fuel. While straight gasoline isn't a good lubricant, how good of a lubricant is alcohol?
I strongly recommend most homeowners that don't use their equipment often, and don't know how to properly care for the equipment, to run the canned fuels. The canned fuels are not only E free, but also lack the other additives that have become an issue. Additives like polymers, which can block fuel flow. Aromatics that have unstable vapor pressures, that effect carb tuning.
I've done years of research on the issue. Ethanol provides no benefit to the environment, and does not give us any independents from foreign oil. All it's doing is costing the American people a lot of money. From farm subsidies to needleless repairs.
Everyone here is an individual and fee to do as they please. A question was asked, I responded as best I could with the knowledge and experience I have on the matter. If you disagree that is fine, we're all grown up's here. No reason to get upset.
Does anybody or has anybody ever really believed that a water based fluid and an oil based fluid would ever mix!? This is really funny! Anybody ever make a Salad with oil and vinigar? Ever see any mixing? Of course they won't mix! It's simple basic chemistry and all the blah blah by the manufacturers are never going to change it. Even if the douse the oil with a bunch of emulsifiers it won't change much. Because if we remember we are talking about 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. So even the finely dispersed ethanol won't matter squat if it doesn't have any oil inside in a machine running at 7-10000 rpm!
But the recomendations by Andyshine 77 about premix is definately correct. Homeowners will definately profit from it and the price is neglectable against the price of having your equipment repaired by a shop.
7
Say what now ?"home owners " should buy little jugs of premixed chainsaw gas? Where in the world did that come from?
Now it's not rocket science here .Anybody with an ounce of brains can dump a little jug of premeasured oil in a fuel can and add a gallon of gasoline .Then again it appears that some could not pour pee out of a gum boot with the directions stamped on the heel .Factualy speaking those should not operate a chainsaw in the first place .
This is becoming almost as much fun as the oil wars . 8)
Quote from: Al_Smith on June 14, 2014, 03:02:54 PM
Say what now ?"home owners " should buy little jugs of premixed chainsaw gas? Where in the world did that come from?
Now it's not rocket science here .Anybody with an ounce of brains can dump a little jug of premeasured oil in a fuel can and add a gallon of gasoline .Then again it appears that some could not pour pee out of a gum boot with the directions stamped on the heel .Factualy speaking those should not operate a chainsaw in the first place .
This is becoming almost as much fun as the oil wars . 8)
Nothing to do with mixing Al, it's about the fact the stuff lasts two years. You can even leave it in a saws fuel tank.
I always understood that premix had a 5 year shelf life.
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I guess I have Fools Luck. I get done with the tiller,thinking I might use it again,I just leave it with gas in it. Wood splitter same way. Last time I used the splitter was back in April. I just put some gas into it and off I go. I have a Echo trimmer that came off the Mayflower. I should not say anything,but have no problems with rubber hoses. Now my 372 Husky have had just about every rubber hose replaced on it,it maybe only 9-10 years old. Trimmer is at least 25 years old. I wonder about how the rubber products was made 25 years ago and 10 years ago?? I'm not trying to say nothing,because I have no data to back up these findings. I do use the highest grade at the local gas station,mix 40:1. ;D
When I was young I always added a product to my gas in the winter called "dry gas" that supposedly kept the moisture in your gas tank from freezing. I think it was basically alcohol and never caused problems most likely because all the lines were steel back then. It absorbed the water in the tank and allowed it to mix with the gas and burn. Seems like if anything the ethanol should help keep the fuel system clean.
On that subject of "dry gas" .Back in the day Standard Oils' premium gasoline was marketed under the name Boron .During winter months it came with "ice guard " which was nothing but a little alcohol thrown in the mix .So cutting to the chase it's nothing new .
I dunno maybe I'm wierd but I view a chainsaw as nothing but a gasoline powered tool .Ran them longer than half the members of this forum and never once thought of them as priceless relics like some .Funny they all seemed to have ran very well .Gas wars gotta luv it . ;D
Its my understanding that "dry gas" is methanol and will keep the water in the tank from freezing but won't render the water burnable. If isopropal alcohol is mixed with a little water it can be burned. I used to add dry gas to my 56 ford in the winter to. Frank C.
Had to replace the fuel lines on pretty much ALL my 2 cyc engines in last 2 years. Thursday I spent 3 hrs tearing down and replacing lines & cleaning carb out on the Home light weed-eater. It was bought in the 90's & always ran either Poulan or Homelite oils at slightly above 30~40:1 mix. I never worry much about HOW OLD the oil/mix is just used it. The WORST thing is the rotting of rubber fuel lines and shrinkage of gas caps. I remember my brothers dirt bike gas cap shrank up after taking it off in about 2 hrs, it would not go back on... Same with BOTH of my Poulan chainsaws, they shrank up and had to be replaced. The fuel lines are a total pain to replace trying to feed then thru small hole in the tank then pull thru the hole to hook em up... :/
Mark
Quote from: 21incher on June 14, 2014, 07:22:05 PM
When I was young I always added a product to my gas in the winter called "dry gas" that supposedly kept the moisture in your gas tank from freezing. I think it was basically alcohol and never caused problems most likely because all the lines were steel back then. It absorbed the water in the tank and allowed it to mix with the gas and burn. Seems like if anything the ethanol should help keep the fuel system clean.
Ethanol is in fact an effective fuel system cleaner.
"Straight gas" can carry a very small amount of water without problems. It stay in suspension in the gas and is so finely dispersed that it usually passes through the fuel system without a problem. Unfortunately, the amount of water that straight gas can hold is tiny. If you go above that amount, the water starts to settle out.
Ethanol or methanol can hold more water than the same volume of straight gas. So adding "dry gas" to your tank can pick up excess water, up to a point. With ethanol, once you get above a certain amount of water in the gas/ethanol fuel mix, the water and ethanol combine (ethanol has an affinity for water and binds aggressively to it). since the ethanol/water combination is heavier than gas, it settles out and sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank. This is known as "phase separation".
This ethanol/water blend is the stuff that causes the most problems in small engines. Generally, it won't burn, since the concentration of the alcohol in the water is below 50%. The mixture is corrosive (one reason the pipeline guys won't allow E10 gas to be pumped through their lines), and it attacks many rubber or plastic compounds. The ethanol in E10 gas is also where the gas mix gets about 3 or 4 points of its octane rating, so if you start with 87 octane E10 gas, and you get phase separation, even if the ethanol water mix is not a problem, the 83 or 84 octane gas you are left with can cause you problems, especially in high-compression engines.
The problem is manageable: use fresh gas, don't leave it sitting in your fuel tank or gas can for extended periods. Store it in a tightly sealed container. Lots of people run it in small engines every day. Even if you don't follow the recommendations for storing and using fresh gas, you may well get away with it. I figure, why take the chance? If i can get non-ethanol gas for my small engines, that's what I buy. If I can't, I don't keep it around long... especially not for use in things like a chainsaw engine. Personally, I don't buy the canned stuff, but I can see that it makes sense for some people. I just happen to draw the line at that price. I'll just use E10 if I have to, and make sure I run things dry when I'm done.
I find it interesting that most members pride themselves on using only the best most expensive 100% ester full synthetic oils. Do members realize that full synthetic oil may attract moisture. This can be quite problematic for engines used seasonally and see months of sitting while being attacked by corrosion. While l don't like ethanol and have never used a fuel with ethanol in it, l would be interested to know what andyshine thinks of the problems associated with full synthetic oil attracting moisture and whether there increased use could be one reason ethanol gets blamed for all things corrosion.
Quote from: CR888 on June 24, 2014, 09:42:09 AM
I find it interesting that most members pride themselves on using only the best most expensive 100% ester full synthetic oils. Do members realize that full synthetic oil may attract moisture. This can be quite problematic for engines used seasonally and see months of sitting while being attacked by corrosion. While l don't like ethanol and have never used a fuel with ethanol in it, l would be interested to know what andyshine thinks of the problems associated with full synthetic oil attracting moisture and whether there increased use could be one reason ethanol gets blamed for all things corrosion.
The early Ester oils back in the late 70's and early 80" were extremely hydroscopic. Yes storage was an issue with many of the early ester based oils. There were other issues as well, such as seal swelling and deterioration, along with instability when mixed with fuel.
Today's modern ester are nothing like they were. From the base stocks to the add packs, they share almost nothing in common. In fact modern ester oils help condition seals and other rubber components, as well as preventing corrosion.
A few manufactures still sell old formulations that don't do well in long term storage applications. Klotz super tech and original tech are two oils that are not meant to be used as storage oils. The main reason those oils still exist is do to wth the fact they mix well with racing fuels that contain alcohol and nitro. Most racing engines are torn down a few times a year, so it's a non issues.
As a motorcycle mechanic I can say for sure ethanol IS a huge problem. In the last 5 years I have fixed more fuel system problems than anything else.CV carbs are just getting killed by the stuff. Even the newer fuel injected bikes are having fuel line issues and it seems to be getting worse.
I replaced the lines on poor Fordinator's transfer valve about 5 years ago when I replaced the valve. It sits a lot! Went to start it the other day, hit the key and smelled fuel-yep it was pouring out of one of those lines. I thought a squirrel had got it, but nope it was rotted from the inside- just like the line I replaced on a 2010 flt today.
People that store their bikes for the winter used to get by with a little Sta-bil in the tank, now if it is gonna sit for 6-8 mos and they dont drain the fuel they will be taking it to me in the spring.
One thing to consider about 2 stroke mixed gas is a lot of the oil has stabilizers and other additives in it and I think it will last on the shelf quite a bit longer than straight gas . We do a late Oct dirtbike trip every year we can and I have used Octobers pre mixed fuel in May and is always fine. Belray H1R! it is great stuff and it gets used in the saws quite a bit on the camping trips.
+1 on ethanol being a huge scam on all us tax payers. The so called "carbon foot print" to grow and produce one tankful of ethanol is higher than what my 514CJ and my "un green" powerstroke puts out in a year-and don't get me started on hybrid cars.....
Nice post Samurai. People that haven't worked on a lot of ope the passed 20 years, simply don't see things as we do.
I know the Quebec government tried the ethanol thing a few years ago. They pulled the plug on it because they found it wasn't such a 'green' idea and a pretty big sink hole for subsidies. There was also a small company here called Eco something or other. I see the place has been up for sale for several months now. Obviously no money there either except what the government gave them. Oh, well. They get nice $60,000 pickups to drive around in I guess. ::)
Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 27, 2014, 06:04:46 AM
Nice post Samurai. People that haven't worked on a lot of ope the passed 20 years, simply don't see things as we do.
Actually we also worked it the 20 years before as well and saw a lot of the same problems. Or, do you think pre ethanol everything worked just dandy forever.
At any rate, if it is as bad as some think it is good for business.
Anyone who thinks ethanol in their gas is helping matters, obviously has zero independent thought. I'm furious at those in my own political party that voted for this issue. If you would like to make corn whiskey add caramel color and bottle it, don't put it in my gas tank.
It is interesting that the government is pushing for E15 to reduce our dependence on foreign oil when in fact it is now the #1 export of the US. Agribusiness needs more profit so the more corn they produce for ethanol the larger the tax subsidies they will receive and the oil companies can export more oil. With the US dollar dropping in value in the global market oil maybe the next currency for the US overseas.
We burn the same gallons of gas to go a 1000 miles, regardless if they add more ethanol or not.
So we are not saving a bit of gas by adding ethanol, just get poorer fuel mileage.
It is all designed to support the price of corn, which with the bumper crop of corn to be expected this year, corn prices are predicted to be low again.
Some reports have been that ethanol production had maxed out... just couldn't use any more than we produce now so that meant no more corn demand to help the extra corn yield and corn prices.
BUT, the EPA is going to require more ethanol to be added to our gas, so that will up the demand for ethanol, and increase the price of corn.
Government control and handling at its very best.
I heard last night from a Husqvarna guy that you should mix half regular gas with half premium gas, and add your mix oil. That way, you end up with only 5% ethanol in your gas, as opposed to 10%. Thoughts?
Premium only has a higher octane rating which is ONLY useful in high compression engines (otherwise you are wasting your money).
I guess I don't run my saw enough though I use it nearly every time I am at my cabin or running my mill. I burn regular gas (which most often contains ethanol) and in 4+ years have had no issue with my saw. I also store gas at home with Stabil and use it later (1-2 years later) with no issue.
yes I'm sure the ethanol doesn't help but if it hasn't burned up a saw in over 4 years then I'm not worried. I also have an older saw (maybe 10 years) which I've not used much in the last 3 years, took it in to have a missing screw replaced and it fired right up and ran like a champ -- and I had left it with fuel in it.
I'm not saying leave fuel in your saw etc I'm just saying I think people worry more than they need to sometimes.
I am with OLJhead on this i haven't had any trouble with my saws yet
ethanol is a problem period but its a part of our life so just deal with it , I have played alot with ethanol is every % out there from 10% to 100 % ethanol , First thing is if the fuel is storage in a dark dry place it will stay pretty good , the sun light kills the fuel in a short amount of time , the closer to 100% ethanol the shorter the fuel will last in sun light , next most 2 stroke oils will mix with 10% ethanol fuel but as soon as you hit 15% ethanol some of those oils break down and will not mix in that much ethanol, there are oils that will mix with any % of ethanol thou but cost more money . the more % of ethanol in your fuel the more 2 stroke oil you should run as ethanol is harder on crank bearing and rod bearings , in 100% ethanol I use 16-1 for a oil mixture and no problems , 32-1 will give you problems very fast at that amount of ethanol. Next, the higher the amount of ethanol you have to richen the crab up to stay in tune or you will be way to lean and it will damage the engine if ran long enough so with that said if you set a saw up that has been running high test fuel that is 10% ethanol and you go to shell gold that is non ethanol the saw will run richer on the gold fuel . I myself run the 10% ethanol high test pump fuel in all my autotune motors , ported or not ported and like how they run better than the non ethanol fuel . I could go on and on but I'm not going to, the facts are ethanol is harder on a motor , fuel lines, carb boots anything it comes in contact with but its in pretty much all the fuel today , does ethanol hurt engine power , if tuned proper ethanol produces more power than gas but you will burn quite abit more fuel to make that power , The lower the grade off fuel the more ethanol is in it so the low test will have the highest amount of ethanol now that doesnot mean the high test will have less but it should not have a higher % of ethanol in it , BUT if you think you are getting more ethanol than what is to be then check your gas for it , we did a test on gas stations around here years back and found as high as 28% ethanol and the reason for looking was all 2 stroke shops were having way to many motors blow up and the to much of ethanol was the problem
I look for many more years than 4 out of my chainsaws. ;D
My "new" MS361 is 10 years old now, and the 041 is 39 and running.
And have been lucky so far to be able to purchase non-ethanol gas.
It (ethanol) is a political hot potato, touted to be saving us regular gasoline and helping support the corn prices. Cars burn the same gallons of regular gas whether or not they add ethanol so there is no savings of gallons of gas there.
The corn prices are back down now as there is no demand for additional volume of ethanol (maxed out) so the solution to bolster the corn prices is to raise the % of ethanol higher than 10%. So we get shoved further in the hole.
Ethanol can be a problem, but the biggest problem is people just not taking care of their saws properly. Use fresh fuel, regardless of whether it has ethanol or not (the shelf life of ethanol/gas blends is less). Yes, you can probably get away with old fuel, and may not run into a problem (I know I've done it in the past), but why push your luck?
As far as mixing premium and regular gas: In SOME areas of the country, you can get non-ethanol premium fuel. Around here, it's only the premium that is available as non-ethanol, and you have to search for a station that carries it (a few gas stations have it, and most marinas do). I use non-ethanol premium because I can get it without much hassle. A couple of years ago, when that was not available in my area, I used premium or mid grade with ethanol in it. I had no problems, but made sure I turned the fuel over quickly. If it got old, it got dumped in my lawnmower or car.
Personally, I would not bother with mixing two kinds of fuel. If I have non-ethanol available at the pump, I use it. If not, I use the E10 gas. I don't buy the caned pre-mix fuel - way too expensive. I could see it might be worth it for someone who does not use their saw regularly, and was concerned they might leave the fuel in the saw for an extended period -- that stuff has some very good shelf life. (I might buy a can or two if it got me the extended warranty with a new saw purchase that some companies are offering, but when it's used up, it would be back to pump gas for me.)
We only run non-ethanol 93 octane in our 2 strokes. Running ethanol here and there wont be that big of a problem but it can break down fuel lines, seals, carbs etc...
It is more expensive (~$20 for 5 gallons here compared to about $18 for 10% ethanol 87 octane), but worth it in my opinion.
It costs about 10 or 12% extra to get non-ethanol premium (91 or 93 octane?) over the price of E10 87 Octane around here (not that I'd run 87 octane in my saws). I've not compared it to the cost of mid grade or premium E10 gas, but my impression is it's fairly close to the price of premium E10.
For that little a difference, and the fact that I regularly pass by a stations selling E0 gas, it's worth it to me to use that in my saws and other small engines.
I use mid grade here in small engines as the refinery said ethanol is only in regular gas. And some brands here like Utramar, have none in their gas at all. The prices per litre for each grade here in NB is the same no matter who you buy it from. It's a regulated price and there is no provision in that pricing for ethanol, only the grade or whether it's full service.
If there is, here show me, it's the regulated price list. :D
http://www.nbeub.ca/images/documents/petroleum_pricing/currentmaximumpriceenglish.pdf
Who benefits from ethanol? I don't. :D
Have no explanation for Canada's regulations. ;D
Who was it that said "You can get all kinds of answers, you just have to ask the right questions." :D
:D This gasoline business is almost as much fun as the oil wars .I've heard of anything from Av gas to little special bottles you buy at the Stihl dealers for"homeowners " I guess renters can just use regular gas then ? Whatever floats your boat .
As far as non moonshine laced gas I did run into some last week .About 40 miles from where you take I 76 into Denver in of all places Nebraska .Purely by accident .In a ten island gas station I just happened to pull in the wrong island .Not paying attention I had almost ten dollars pumped in until I looked at the price 3.89 a gallon :o.Shut it off at ten .The normal in Nebraska and western Iowa had been 3.19, about 20 cents cheaper than Ohio .
when condensation separates the gas from the ethanol, theres no oil mix in the water contaminated ethanol it's only in the gas.
or if you are running the saw in a wet climate that can get some water in the gas tank.
also when phase separation happens 87 octane will turn in to about 84+/- somthing octane...
the OE requirement for any 2 stroke ive seen is 89 or higher octane.
a worst case condensation test to show how fast it can happen in the right conditions :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo)
Nice video. one thing he doesn't point out is that it's not just water in the bottom of the jar, it's a combination of water and ethanol which is corrosive.
The last time I got 2 gal of Premium gas with no ethanol when I had it checked it had 5% , I Didn't think about the Regular gas with ethanol that was in the hose. Next time I will put 2 gal in the truck then fill my gas can.
I have 3 Stihl saws , 0-41 /260/362 Had to replace the carb in the 260which is 4 yrs old, the 0-41 was bought new in 1974 and has never had any thing done to it. I used the same gas in all my saws. Yes I was told the carb problem was caused by ethanol . splitwood_smiley splitwood_smiley