What is a good for both you and the customer to do custom sawing.
I reckon make some money and make a happy custermor
If I'm reading your question correctly, I'd say, giving the customer the size(s) they want, and getting paid will make both parties happy.
is it better to charge by the board foot or by the day? I have never sold any lumber or done any work other than for myself? I dont want to charge to much and I dont want to loose money ether.
Stick...on logs larger than 8 inches and up on the small end and a minimum of 8 foot and up in length......charge by the board foot.
Anything smaller....by the hour. Just take your time and you'll learn your speed pretty quick. Just try not to saw to fast, you'll get smooooother lumber. :)
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on September 06, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
Stick...on logs larger than 8 inches and up on the small end and a minimum of 8 foot and up in length......charge by the board foot.
Anything smaller....by the hour. Just take your time and you'll learn your speed pretty quick. Just try not to saw to fast, you'll get smooooother lumber. :)
Even at that, it's a double edge sword. Are you supplying the labor force? If you depend on the customer and he's supplying the help, you could find yourself behind the 8 ball if you're sawing by the BF. Just something to consider. If you're supplying the labor, you need to adjust your prices accordingly.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on September 06, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
Stick...on logs larger than 8 inches and up on the small end and a minimum of 8 foot and up in length......charge by the board foot.
Anything smaller....by the hour. Just take your time and you'll learn your speed pretty quick. Just try not to saw to fast, you'll get smooooother lumber. :)
8" small end, by the bf , not sawing fast, no money in that.
12" and bigger small end. When you cut wood for some years you will find how fast you can cut with your mill and have nice lumber and not junk. The trick is to find the line of making good lumber or bad, And cut right up to it. ;D
Still not enough info Stick......are you stationary or traveling with your mill?
I am stationary and I charge by the board foot when customers bring me their logs. I am solo...well....just me and my backhoe.....and I am making good money. :)
A lot of different ways to accomplish the same results......this works for me.
Lots of good advice above. I have one thing to add:
if they want quarter sawed material, go by the hour for that.
the way I see it, there are two ways, maybe more to look at it. And it really boils down to supply and demand. You have to dig in and see what is what in your area for what you can produce, and how folks will respond to what you have to offer. It all takes time and experience to work out. There are bumps in the road, and there are nice spells as well. I'm not sure still if there is a formula that fits all sizes, I'm sure if you have sawn for yourself you will certainly figure out how to deliver for others, and make a profit at the same time,
I would saw strictly by the hour if customers would pay for it, I don't think our local market would support that though. Thus, I charge by the board foot. Whatever way Poston does it, I would do it that way. He still has year old uncashed checks in his wallet, there's no arguing with that ;) ;D
Quote from: barbender on September 07, 2014, 12:15:48 AM
I would saw strictly by the hour if customers would pay for it, I don't think our local market would support that though. Thus, I charge by the board foot. Whatever way Poston does it, I would do it that way. He still has year old uncashed checks in his wallet, there's no arguing with that ;) ;D
Try buying your own land and build all the buildings, start a business and have only yourself and your wits to do it. And make a living with only the mill paying the bills.You will see you don't have uncash checks in your wallet. Piston and a lot of guys here have the big avantiges with the family farm and a regler job that pays the bills.
I mean no Disrespect to the guys with the farms.
I just want barbender to know making a living with a mill and start with nothing is a lot of work. And not everyone makes it :)
Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 07, 2014, 09:33:09 AM
Quote from: barbender on September 07, 2014, 12:15:48 AM
I would saw strictly by the hour if customers would pay for it, I don't think our local market would support that though. Thus, I charge by the board foot. Whatever way Poston does it, I would do it that way. He still has year old uncashed checks in his wallet, there's no arguing with that ;) ;D
Try buying your own land and build all the buildings, start a business and have only yourself and your wits to do it. And make a living with only the mill paying the bills.You will see you don't have uncash checks in your wallet. Piston and a lot of guys here have the big avantiges with the family farm and a regler job that pays the bills.
I mean no Disrespect to the guys with the farms.
I just want barbender to know making a living with a mill and start with nothing is a lot of work. And not everyone makes it :)
Ahmen to to Peter's statement !
smiley_thumbsup
if i won the lottery i could farm and mill wood longer till it was all gone :D :D
seriously, i believe to make it custom sawing or anything you need to be completely open minded and willing to try just about anything. knowing sometimes you dont make money ,just breaking even is a good day but,you still made a customer satisfied and he will spread the word which at the end of the day thats what will put beans in your soup.(old saying) :)
Peter, my comment is a light hearted jab at Poston. I have a ton of respect for you guys that make a living with a mill paying all the bills. I would love to do it myself, but I'm not sure I've got what it takes, to be honest. So I have my mill mostly for hobby use for myself, and I hope I can sell an occasional $300 slab like Poston ;) I'll keep my job out running forwarder for the security of paying the bills and providing for the family. As long as I have the mill, I'll keep dreaming.
Yesterday , Saturday I spent 5 hours with two different customers on 1 slab and 2 boards to make a sale. Cut the boards , S4S them , supply finishing information and a 90 minute walk around the log yard......On the slab, champagne taste on a beer budget, and I actually had to GIVE him a can of finishing oil for free to close the deal. lots of my energy to generate cash flow to say the least. Today more customers will chew up the only day left before the start of the work week tomorrow.The sawmill business is tough to say the least and if you want to make a go of it there is never ending sacrifice in building , making payments, buying equipment, trying to keep the marriage together, etc, etc. Then again ....No way could I work for anyone ! >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :snowball:
[quote author=Peter Drouin link=topic=77580.msg1177834#msg1177834 date=1410096789
Try buying your own land and build all the buildings, start a business and have only yourself and your wits to do it. And make a living with only the mill paying the bills.You will see you don't have uncash checks in your wallet. Piston and a lot of guys here have the big avantiges with the family farm and a regler job that pays the bills.
I mean no Disrespect to the guys with the farms.
I just want barbender to know making a living with a mill and start with nothing is a lot of work. And not everyone makes it :)
[/quote]
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This is a very good point Peter. Some make it and some don't.
Milling is not what I do for a living and if I thought I had to mill for a living ...I might rethink my line of work.
My REAL job is with the Forest Service, Farming and 2 mobile homes I rent. My LT40 started out as a hobby and to just saw for a few friends. It blew up and now I have lots of friends. :D
I actually saw about 5 hours a day combined with moving logs, bucking, loading a trailer, unloading logs, shaking hands and talking with customers, answering the phone about lumber, lunch, mowing grass and all that stuff that comes with life. During Fire season, I will respond to a fire when I'm called.
I could not make JUST MILLING 5 hours a day.
When discussing what to charge, many guys say things like, "I don't want to charge too much" or "I don't want to rip them off" or "I want to give them a good deal/fair price" Bottom line is, first know your costs then decide what you expect to get paid for your time. There's your price. If you are honest, give them good service and a good product and the customer agrees, then that's a fair price. If you charge less, it's the customer that's "ripping YOU off"
Good Luck and enjoy.
Be prepared to turn down some jobs, and have some customers turn you down. I charge custom sawing by the hour, and production (barn siding and the like) by the board foot. Quality & reliability will beat fast & cheap every time!
Think about this: What does " Ripping off the customer mean"? What does "Charging too much mean"?
Quote from: Cedarman on September 08, 2014, 09:31:55 AM
Think about this: What does " Ripping off the customer mean"? What does "Charging too much mean"?
Good question! smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: Cedarman on September 08, 2014, 09:31:55 AM
Think about this: What does " Ripping off the customer mean"? What does "Charging too much mean"?
Seems to me the first order of business is to make money. If you can make a lot that is better. If you lose money you won't be in business too long.
I think a lot of guys starting out think like employees instead of business owners, figuring out what they need to make per hour, etc.
There are a lot of hidden expenses that the beginning businessman/woman will often overlook, but they will come back and bite your behind if you don't look out.
Here are a few of them:
1. Setup time
2. Cleanup time
3. Breakdown time and loss of use of machinery
4. Talking to customers and business promotion time, all of it unpaid and lots resulting in NO SALE
5. Weather shutdowns
6. Depreciation of equipment
7. In search of the right logs time, and cutting and hauling if you do that part. All unpaid.
8. Vehicle expenses
9. Blade expenses
10. Lower production than grade sawing to produce custom orders.
11. Costs for labor including taxes, insurance, etc.
12. Bad logs that look like good logs
I'm sure there are many I didn't mention here. If you forget any of your hidden expenses, you will underprice your product and will struggle at best. :snowball:
Sorry, that's just the way it is. :(
One mistake I see, and have done myself, is to take on unprofitable work because you have to have cash flow. You think that it is ok, because you can keep going, and you are banking on better days. The result of this is that you have trained people to think of you as the low ball operator, and you will use up your equipment, credit, and other resources. There will be no better days, unless you plan for them. Although I don't really do much custom work at the moment by design, I charge what I feel is the right amount of money to cover my overhead and other inputs. If that is too much for the customer, then they are welcome to go elsewhere. I won't burn my furniture to heat the house. (Old saying).
If you are planning to provide a sawing service, then there is a need to be flexible as well as the need to make $$$ to stay in business. My plans were to shut down all sawing and get ready for our PNW trip beginning next week, but my phone rang last night. A "new" customer one mile away had one twelve foot 30" White Oak log that he wanted sawn into 2X6's for bridge decking. OK, I would do it this morning, but what to charge for a one log job? The minimum should be to charge for sawing one Mbf or 4 hours labor. This would be fair to both he and I and we discussed it. I charged 3 hours plus the blade. I was OK and he knew that I cut him some slack.
The point is that this "new" customer will become a "repeat" customer.
Think about this also.....
A customer may say he gets his lumber sawn by me because I have fair prices because the guy down the road is charging way to much.
We all need to take this into consideration.....The 'Ol Goat has a hydraulic mill, I can saw some good Pine siding boards and charge the customer 25 cents a board foot for sawing his Pine. Yep...I'm making money at a fair price.
Now the guy down the road that customers thinks his prices are too high.....well he has a mill with NO hydraulics or he may have a manuel mill.
This guy is charging 40 cents a BF to saw customers lumber. He has to because of his extra labor.
Customers hardly ever, even think about the mill.....but go only on pricing.....thus the guy down the road with no hydraulics or a manuel mill gets a bad rap for charging to much when in reality he is charging a fair price based on his LABOR.
Do Y'all see what I'm talking about? So back to what Cedarman asked.....What is ripping off and what is over charging? I think if you're charging a fair price based your labor.....then unfortunately your judged by customers.
Hydraulic sawmills are more adapt toward production while manual sawmills may need to look more toward niche markets. There is a definite need for both.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on September 08, 2014, 04:49:26 PM
Think about this also.....
A customer may say he gets his lumber sawn by me because I have fair prices because the guy down the road is charging way to much.
We all need to take this into consideration.....The 'Ol Goat has a hydraulic mill, I can saw some good Pine siding boards and charge the customer 25 cents a board foot for sawing his Pine. Yep...I'm making money at a fair price.
Now the guy down the road that customers thinks his prices are too high.....well he has a mill with NO hydraulics or he may have a manuel mill.
This guy is charging 40 cents a BF to saw customers lumber. He has to because of his extra labor.
Customers hardly ever, even think about the mill.....but go only on pricing.....thus the guy down the road with no hydraulics or a manuel mill gets a bad rap for charging to much when in reality he is charging a fair price based on his LABOR.
Do Y'all see what I'm talking about? So back to what Cedarman asked.....What is ripping off and what is over charging? I think if you're charging a fair price based your labor.....then unfortunately your judged by customers.
Yes , I had a lt40 with hydraulics with a 24 horse. And at .25 a BF money for me was ok. But I wanted more ;D
That's why I got the super with the 51 horse Cat. Now [In 2008] at .25 a BF I did well ;D So this year I went up,now it's .25 here and .30 on the road [ soft wood]
So I guess what I'm saying is ,I could go up with the price or cut more wood a day. So the price was the same , But Production went up with the super.
right on pete!!
there are times I believe breaking even or losing on a job will come back to you with alot more work, a customer if they are a bigger player will have you do a sampling, kinda an audtion to see how you handle tough situations. i guess i'm saying things arent always taken at face value.
before you turn down a job, think about the ramifications long term, the customer you turned down unless the reason is very obvious, will tell everybody an anybody he can, saying how so in so turned me down.how much lost money is that guy costing you?sad fact in life.
we have probably generated over 100k from initial jobs most would have turned down.
sadly there will be times (if your fulltime) you will do work because its cash flow :(
Thanks red oaks
Just like some guys here think I sell too low on some things. But it gets the eye of customers. Just like a man want's a price on five 8x8x40' timbers.
I gave him a good price of 2.00 a BF for them as long as I get the whole timber frame. See he thought the long stuff was going to be a lot of money, I pay the same BF price for 8' or 40' log. Now I have to price the whole thing. All w pine.
I know I can cut the 8x8s in a day. Another call today for four 28' 8x10 w pine to restore an old barn 2.00 a BF. Then boards a lot of them :D
With the 34' trailer I got last year to move them is easy. I don't deliver for free. :D :D ;D
I charge $0.40 board foot when they bring me the logs and want 1x or 2x material. If I am on the road or sawing beams or heavy material, I charge $75/hour. There is a $200 minimum charge if I am on the road. $75/hr does not make me rich, but it does pay the bills. If the customer has good logs and good help, I can keep the blade biting wood and he gets a good deal. If he has small logs and poor help (or no help), he pays quite a bit on a bdft basis and I still pay the bills.
I used to saw by the bdft, but got beat too many times by little logs or lazy help, that I had to change. When I explain to a new customer, they understand and most always have good help and have the logs ready to roll up to the mill. Changing to the hourly pay has made my life much easier.
example - Sawing nice ash, oak and cherry logs, all sawn at 1 1/8" random width. A customer got about 4000 bdft sawn in 2 short days for $1100. He got good hardwood sawn for about $0.275/bdft. All I had to do was push buttons because he had lots of help. He got a good deal on sawing, we were both happy. His kiln drying bill will be more than his sawing bill.
I think there are too many variables that you cannot control when sawing on the road. I need to make a living, so I leave the customer take the burden of his variables, because they are his to control.
How much to charge that's always an interesting question.
I think a business should charge what the market will bear. Keeping in mind that some bad jobs might lead to great jobs in the future. Also just because a great margin can be made on a job that doesn't mean you should abuse an opportunity.
It would not make any sense to build a great business with outstanding efficiency an develop your employees to be great and then treat your business as if it were average. If you have the things mentioned above and you worked hourly you end up doing a lot of work for less than you should.
To me profit based on percentage of gross is very misleading. For example everyone loves to hate big oil. They made fill in the blank billion dollars. However very few people hate Google or cell phone companies or ebay. Big oil makes a much smaller percent profit.
Charge what the market will bear. You will still make some and loose some.
John.
BBTom describes my last several years experiences of portable sawing exactly. I presently charge hourly at $70 for bandsawing, but also keep track of BF as I saw. Ready nice logs, good help, easy sawing instructions and the customer gets a great deal. Why shouldn't he, if he has nice logs, and goes to the trouble of preparing them and having helpers and often a machine ready. Sometimes I wonder if I should be charging more or set a minimum BF floor, especially when I leave stacks of lumber often for as little as 25 cents a BF. I had one farmer who set up things so well it was 19 cents for a day of mostly 2x, and a second for 24 cents that was mostly 1x. But when I reckon what his additional costs are and whether I would want to try to provide the same support myself to try to do better, forget it. A lot of the efficiency comes from nice logs arranged properly and I'm not going to take control of those things. When I show up and the logs are not cut to length, half of the pile on the other side of a stump, some over 20 ft, and the customer says "whatever you think you can get out of it", that's what we do, at the hourly rate.
terrifictimbersllc,that farmer was saying,show me the money. He could see how having things ready and the way you wanted it was going to save him money. If you charge by the bf,why bother having things ready?But I can see the bf charge works and the hourly rate works.
One area of concern I have with sawing big and long at a low rate is that you may be stuck with that price when a customer only needs the big and long. If you have 2 prices, one for when you get a big job and another for when it is just the big and long, it can cause people to think you are playing games. I point this out as another thing to think about when pricing. Not saying which is right way to go, but to be sure to think through it.
We are not into custom sawing, but sawing custom lumber out of our logs.
30 years ago we did custom sawing, so I know the issues that you guys have. They haven't changed.
Yup, if you always charge on a "one size fits all" (either hourly or bf rate) and do not assess each type of sawing job, at one time or the other you could either work/saw too cheap or leave money on the table. That is not taking advantage of the customer, and it is also not inadvertently giving the customer any advantage. It's just business and being fair to both you and the customer.
MM, I agree with your statement.. it's hard to stick to one rule, flexibility is the key i think. Keeps you employed!
It's good to get so many responses to a post and be able to see what you all charge, makes life a little easier for us beginners to sort out what we may or may not need to do.
Thanks all!!! I certainly appreciate this board!!
When I do custom saw, it is hourly. It isn't my responsibility to make sure the customer has optimized the material flow. I do try to educate them as to the best way to save time, but if I get nasty, twisted, stubby logs, then I am not being penalized for it. I have offered to cut on a board foot rate, but all of my terms would have to be met. Truckload quantities (4,000 ft+), no short logs, logs to be properly manufactured, no junk, not dipped in mud like a fudgesicle, etc. :D Basically, if you want good productivity, then you need to run the show like a commercial mill does. There is a reason they have specs, it's the only way to be efficient. Of course, this is where the small custom guys have their niche by sawing the odd ball stuff. There are a lot of good short logs that I see that would be a shame to cut into firewood, like a 6' long 24" super clear cherry log, but someone has to want to spend a little extra to get it sawn.
I based my hourly rate off my average bft production over a long period of time. When Little Jo jioned the team the production went up considerably (I must have been loafing ::)) so I rased the rate from $60 hr to $75 hr.
Even at $75 hr the other day I milled for a long time customer that prefers the hourly rate, as he is very efficiant oriented. At the end of the day his cost for a stack of 1x12's was 1/2 my bft rate at less then $.15 bft.
Yesterdays milling was charged at $.30 bft, if it had been hourly it would have worked out to be $80 hr and these were trees layed down when we arrived and no equipment on site and four saw changes due to metal-broken blades.
Tracking production numbers over time gives you an average to work from when setting and adjusting rates. In 8 years I have only adjusted my hourly rate once and bft rate has not changed, I have adjusted travel cost a few times over the years with fuel cost being a veriable there.
Quote from: Cedarman on September 09, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
One area of concern I have with sawing big and long at a low rate is that you may be stuck with that price when a customer only needs the big and long. If you have 2 prices, one for when you get a big job and another for when it is just the big and long, it can cause people to think you are playing games. I point this out as another thing to think about when pricing. Not saying which is right way to go, but to be sure to think through it.
We are not into custom sawing, but sawing custom lumber out of our logs.
30 years ago we did custom sawing, so I know the issues that you guys have. They haven't changed.
smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: Dave Shepard on September 09, 2014, 11:59:04 AM
like a 6' long 24" super clear cherry log
Where is it? I might want to buy it ;D.