What is your blade cost per BF?
I have done these figures many times but thought that some newbies might find it interesting.
My blade cost run at .0067 cents per bf. I figure in the cost of the blades plus $9.00/ sharpening and this is where my cost are. I think it is only fair to figure in what you would have to pay for sharpening even if you do it yourself. This way if you are doing your own sharpening you are still getting paid by the mill. I figure what WM would charge, plus $1.00 each way for shipping. I don't know if this is a fair way to figure this but it is the way that I do it.
I trust you Jake......I'm not EVEN gonna try. :D
For a goat you make a fine chicken. :D
Keeping in mind I have not started yet and I don't remember where I got the figure but when I built a spreadsheet for some basic computations I had found .01 c/bf.
Keith :-\
I think I am around $0.017 per board foot.
I have done these figures several times and any time you can get close to .01 cents per bf. or less you are doing fine on your blade cost. I was mostly curious where some of you other sawyers came in with your blade cost.
I think that number was for lumber only. Cutting timbers would drop that a lot. I personally am not too worried about it. If it cost $0.10 I'd probably stop sawing, but I wouldn't sharpen my own.
Those numbers seem very low. If that is right it would mean you must be getting nearly 1000 board feet per sharpening.
I cut all of my logs into 1/2" thick and lately have been hitting a lot of nails, I am lucky if I can get 100 board feet out of a blade between sharpening so my cost is closer to $0.13 per board foot. (I came up with that cost by figuring I can get 3 sharpens out of a blade before it breaks so I take one third of the blade cost ($6) plus the cost of sharpening ($7) and divide it by the 100 board feet I average per sharpening.
Oops double posted when I tried to modify my last post.
Interesting Jake. Your figure sounds right. How many sharpenings per band are you figuring? 5-6?
You probably encounter less metal in you operation than guys who do strictly portable sawing. But then us portable guys usually charge for destroyed bands, so I guess that evens it out in the end.
Now if only my truck was as efficient with gas at the mill is with bands! :D
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 17, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Those numbers seem very low. If that is right it would mean you must be getting nearly 1000 board feet per sharpening.
I cut all of my logs into 1/2" thick and lately have been hitting a lot of nails, I am lucky if I can get 100 board feet out of a blade between sharpening so my cost is closer to $0.13 per board foot. (I came up with that cost by figuring I can get 3 sharpens out of a blade before it breaks so I take one third of the blade cost ($6) plus the cost of sharpening ($7) and divide it by the 100 board feet I average per sharpening.
Excluding bands wrecked from metal strikes, you should be getting a lot more than 100 bf between sharpening. Even in hardwoods, and without a debarker, you should be getting 300 bf plus milling 4/4, softwoods 500 bf plus. Based on my experience running WM 1 1/4" bands.
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 17, 2014, 09:40:36 PM
Oops double posted when I tried to modify my last post.
Thats OK Joe, I enjoy reading your postsssssssss. ;D
I've got my cost figured at 0.027 per bd. ft. using your figures for sharpening. Looks like a debarker might pay for itself pretty quick. :o
I used to be at $0.035 / BF. That included the sharpening charges, the shipping charges, and my time and $ driving the blades to the bus depot (and picking them up again).
Charging yourself for sharpening time is one way to do the calculation, but there's a better way. Do the math to figure out if you earn more money (total sales minus material costs) per hour sharpening your own, versus sending them out. If you have all the work you can handle, you may be better off sending your blades out.
Joe...X2 what H Jake said. The big reason why customsawyer can get 1000bf + per blade per sharpening is because he can saw at least three times faster than say, a medium duty manual mill. Say for example, that he and I are sawing side by side with our mills and we saw for one hour. since our band speed is roughly the same, the bands will make the same # of revolutions in that period of time. I may only saw 100bf, whereas Customsawyer might be around 300bf at the end of that hour. So lets say that we saw for 3 more hours. we take a lunch break and change our blades. Mine has only sawn 400bf and its getting dull. So is his, but he's up around 1200bf. I am limited in my saw speed because of my lower hp engine. Customsawyer on the other hand, whose mill has significantly more hp than mine, is only limited by the performance of the blade. If we were to look at the sawdust our two mills made, you'd see that his would be coarser than mine, as each tooth on his can take a bigger bite with each pass. The only way to significantly reduce my blade cost per bf is to get a bigger mill. many other factors figure into blade cost per bf, but HP is a biggie.
I came up with .0375bft on this last batch of 20 saws.
Had a rash of metal strikes on several jobs back to back ::)
shortening the life or killing over half the saws. The saws that are left are at about half life and if I figure half of them will find metal the cost per bft will go down some but not a whole lot over the course of the next few sharpenings.
I alway buy the first saw that hits metal and the customer buys the rest that do. Just figure it as normal wear and tear sawing yard trees.
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 17, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Those numbers seem very low. If that is right it would mean you must be getting nearly 1000 board feet per sharpening.
I cut all of my logs into 1/2" thick and lately have been hitting a lot of nails, I am lucky if I can get 100 board feet out of a blade between sharpening so my cost is closer to $0.13 per board foot. (I came up with that cost by figuring I can get 3 sharpens out of a blade before it breaks so I take one third of the blade cost ($6) plus the cost of sharpening ($7) and divide it by the 100 board feet I average per sharpening.
My blade cost are going to be lower than most due to the fact that I am cutting lots of large timbers. It is not out of the norm for me to get close to 2000 bf/sharpening. I get more bf out of a resharpened blade than I do a new blade.
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 17, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Those numbers seem very low. If that is right it would mean you must be getting nearly 1000 board feet per sharpening.
A couple of weeks ago I had a sawjob where I sawed 4,700+ bf of White Pine and I had 5 blades to sharpen after the job was done, so, 4,700 divided by 5 = 940 board feet per blade on that particular job!
I have tried to keep a running check on my blade costs, it can get confusing with so many variables and can also get expensive if your blade maintenance program and re-sharp service is not of top notch quality. If you have someone else doing the re-sharp you must keep very close records of your blades and be sure that the service is not rejecting blades that might just need a small amount of extra attention to get them right, if your blades are being taken out of service when you could be saving a couple that have minor problems or issues that can be fixed your costs will be very high. My best efforts to monitor the cost per B/F are revealing that its costing me on average between 3 and 4 cents per board foot so my average is $0.035 / B.F. average all costs considered. If the time comes when I am using up a high volume of blades and can see that it would be worthwhile to re-sharp my own I will be asking all the experts here for advice and help selecting the proper equipment.
Very good thread Jake. I am still learning to optimize Tom, so my band costs are still extraordinarily high mainly due to running them too long before changing them (still sharp, but did not pay attention to the hours of run time and broke several on my last run - expensive lesson!).
I've moved up to the 1-1/2" .055 bands which has allowed me to increase my speed in the cut, but I'm still figuring things out. It seems counter-intuitive to change a band that is still sharp because of the development of cracks in the gullet that result from the # of revolutions on the wheel.
Jake, I have not ran the numbers on the resharps, but figuring the initial cost I'm running close to .03 but not over this for sure. Fuel is .015 or so, crashed, trashed blades are few but just never factor these in, too painful to add up when it happens.
customsawyer, how many times can you sharpen a band, and what width and thickness do you run? I think I remember you were running wider bands on one of the mills. I get 4 or 5 sharpenings on .055" with a 19" wheel. Do you get more with the larger wheels on your LT70s?
Since I'm an analyst I will point out that I think Jake meant that is the cost in dollars and not cents. ;)
Here is a table I just typed up in excel to show blade cost with the rate of $23 per blade initial cost and $9 for resharpening.
I wish my blade cost $23 ea. ;D
184" 1 1/2" .055 are running $35 ea.
Even though we may get more revolutions per saw, the saw has to be in the wood for a high percentage of those revolutions to bring the cost per bft down.
I'm talking about flex life.
Quote from: customsawyer on September 17, 2014, 08:23:58 PM
What is your blade cost per BF?
I have done these figures many times but thought that some newbies might find it interesting.
My blade cost run at .0067 cents per bf.
Quote from: customsawyer on September 17, 2014, 09:00:03 PM
I have done these figures several times and any time you can get close to .01 cents per bf. or less you are doing fine on your blade cost. I was mostly curious where some of you other sawyers came in with your blade cost.
You either have a phenomenally low blade cost or I am confused by your labeling of costs. This is based on comparison to anyone else that has posted on the subject.
You stated ".0067 cents per board foot" and ".01 cents per board foot".
Since cents are already .01 of a dollar do you really mean $.000067 and $.0001 or do you mean $.0067 (.67 cents) and $.01 (1 cent)
Quote from: backwoods sawyer on September 18, 2014, 11:27:30 AM
I wish my blade cost $23 ea. ;D
184" 1 1/2" .055 are running $35 ea.
Yeah, really. Mine are $43 bucks each delivered....
So many factors and variables to tracking blade production rates. I can use a WM 4 degree on mixed hardwood with no lube/coolant and get almost 2kbf before I change the blade, and only then because the feed rate slows down. same blade in dried spruce only will produce 1000 bf, a 10 degree on that same mix of hardwoods & dried spruce will dull out about 1000 bf. The difference there is the time it takes to cut the 1000 bf and the amount of sawdust. I have not tried either one in green pine yet but I am sure I will soon. Since I only have a little over 100 hours on my mill I am still learning but at this point cost per blade production is way down on my list of important things to figure out.
S
Dave I have been running several different blades lately so I am not sure how to answer your question. Up until recently I was running the 1¾"X.055X10 degree.
This part is for Pine and Jemclimber. I am not trying to be rude, just asking one of you to teach me.
My blade cost is less than one cent per bf. but more than one half of one cent per bf. It is actually three percent less than seventy percent of one cent. I am not going to say I am sure I know how to write it but I think I am right.
I mentioned earlier that my cost should be less than others since I cut lots of timbers versus boards.
You ain't rude. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJOL0xb6VsY&list=UUoK01ereAGdikRqDj00MmYA
That looks a whole lot like a bar I was in one time while in Georgia. :D :D :D
I was drinking Kool-Aid and watched 1 blade tooth go ALL THE WAY around in a circle.......
......and then I fell off the stool and heard a Banjo. :D :D :D :D
You know Jake could hurt you real bad don't ya. :D
Quote from: Mooseherder on September 18, 2014, 08:17:02 PM
You know Jake could hurt you real bad don't ya. :D
SQARISH me like a Pine Beetle......but he'd have to catch me first unless he puts knock out drops in my Nanner Pudding. :D
I don't think he can run fast with them boots. ;D
Quote from: customsawyer on September 18, 2014, 07:06:42 PM
This part is for Pine and Jemclimber. I am not trying to be rude, just asking one of you to teach me.
My blade cost is less than one cent per bf. but more than one half of one cent per bf. It is actually three percent less than seventy percent of one cent. I am not going to say I am sure I know how to write it but I think I am right.
I mentioned earlier that my cost should be less than others since I cut lots of timbers versus boards.
I think that explanation clarified your costs very well. ;D
Dave I can normally sharpen 3-5 times per blade. You will always have those few that you get to sharpen so many times that you don't have enough blade left to work with. I find that after sharpening about 5 times on a blade that they don't stay sharp very long. I think it has to do with having ground off the part of the tooth that they hardened.
Yes Jake, @customsawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) , to write it correctly it is $0.0067 (dollars), which is just a little more than half of a penny. ;) It's probably the only thing I can teach you if we're talking sawmills. :D I hope I didn't come off as rude. I have much respect for you.
PS. The vaseline usage is probably the most life changing lesson you taught me! Thank you!!!!
@Jemclimber (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=16094) In the future if you are going to use my name and Vaseline, in the same sentence, please share more details. :D I heard several eyebrows raise through the screen.
Quote from: customsawyer on September 19, 2014, 05:00:00 PM
@Jemclimber (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=16094) In the future if you are going to use my name and Vaseline, in the same sentence, please share more details. :D I heard several eyebrows raise through the screen.
I had a post all typed up to question that but I felt the sarcasm may get lost in text and I may offend someone. :laugh:
Quote from: customsawyer on September 19, 2014, 05:00:00 PM
@Jemclimber (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=16094) In the future if you are going to use my name and Vaseline, in the same sentence, please share more details. :D I heard several eyebrows raise through the screen.
I think I just cracked a tooth on the rim of a glass. :D
i was trying to follow the post and got lost, we dont keep track of how much blade cost per bd ft , and now after the last couple of posts my eyebrow did rise not sure why , probably cuz i was lost in the conversation , oh well
jim
wait i should say we do know how much our blades cost and roughly how much we cut with them , but never figured it out ,,,
jim
Jim do you need some Vaseline to figure it out?
I hear a cat in a bag... ;) :D :D
My eyebrows raised, and I moved on to "next topic" :D
I have not read everyone of these replies but do scan the thread everyday.
But my question...if you're trying to figure blade cost.....are you figuring the savings a de-barker provides?
I did last winter when the debarker wore out and I had to replace the whole assembly. Went thru twice as many saws.
Our average blade cost is at $.0137 per bd ft. That's running WM Double-Hard 1 1/2" .055s on an LT70. We average 1388' between blade changes, send to Re-sharp once and scrap them. That's sawing a 50-50 mix of white oak and red oak into ties and 4/4 lumber. Good Red oak we get closer to 2000' per blade change and knotty white oak a 1000' is pushing it.
I know there may be a few raised eyebrows over scrapping a $28 blade after one sharpening. Broken 1 1/2 .055s can do a lot of damage. V-belts for the 70 are $24.36 each plus tax and freight, the main drive belt is around $178. The mill running at 1000' an hour generates at least $250 an hour or $4.16 a minute. Blade breakage on new blades is generally none, and pretty seldom on the 1st re-sharp. Loose more than 5 minutes of sawing time prying out a broken blade or ruin a v-belt and you loose enough production to pay for the new blade. Down time is a big deal when you have employees. No doubt some of the blade failures were self inflicted, and more frequent blade changes would increase the number of sharpening's but 2 minutes downtime to change a blade has costs too.
smiley_thumbsup
smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: stavebuyer on September 21, 2014, 10:32:53 AM
Down time is a big deal when you have employees.
smiley_thumbsup
Balancing blade cost with other cost changes based on each of our operations.
On small bandmills, blade cost is always going to be a very small part of the equation.
I appreciate everyone's post. I find it very interesting some of the differences.
Y'all are embarrasing me with my little toy lt15. It would take me two days to cut 1000 bf. Good thing I mostly cut walnut thats been averaging around 2.50. My blades are less than $16. Resharp is around $7. I might get 100 ft to a blade, I might get 400, depending on the logs. Best I can figure, my blade cost is around $.07 per ft.
No need to be embarrassed. :)
Ive never figured it... next new blade I pjut on the mill, ill keep track of it.
Sorry Jake, didn't mean to embarrass you. lol
Dyates, where do you get $16 blades and which blade are you using?
Quote from: Chuck White on September 18, 2014, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 17, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
Those numbers seem very low. If that is right it would mean you must be getting nearly 1000 board feet per sharpening.
A couple of weeks ago I had a sawjob where I sawed 4,700+ bf of White Pine and I had 5 blades to sharpen after the job was done, so, 4,700 divided by 5 = 940 board feet per blade on that particular job!
Forgot to mention, I usually get an average of 8-10 sharpenings per blade and once in a while I'll get as many as 12 sharpenings.
I guess I'm getting the maximum use from my blades!
I use Wood-Mizer .045x1¼x10° Double Hards!
My LT15 is not a toy :).
Quote from: Jemclimber on September 24, 2014, 06:40:05 AM
Sorry Jake, didn't mean to embarrass you. lol
Dyates, where do you get $16 blades and which blade are you using?
silvertip from Woodmizer. My blades are smaller and shorter.
Forgot to mention I can get blades directly from Piper in central city. They have a truck route that eliminates shipping charges.
This thread was running through my mind as I was sawing this weekend..... Had a bunch of gravel filled read oak to get through.....a quick scrub with a wire brush helped that. Still, I went through 3 blades to get 1200bf. The 4th blade...put on fresh at the end of the mill, not the head like usual, just after I rolled the cant and dogged it. And guess what I forgot to do......yup....lower the back stops below the 4 cuts I needed to make. Just kissed the top of one, blade dove and there went the next 2 boards. Average cost there was not good.....
Then yesterday I was cutting a 1000bf of really clean curly sugar maple. I don't think I got more than 350bf out of each band before they would start to wave or leave unacceptable lines on the lumber and get hard to push. Not quite sure what was going on there... I used the last band on the mill from yesterday, with about 300bf on it, to cut 250bf of really old, dry cherry today with out a hitch and a completely smooth finish. I was surprised. That tough cherry cut like butter, except when I exited the butt.....
I'm using resharp Timberwolf 1-1/2, 7/8ths with I think a 10˚ hook.
Quote from: FarmingSawyer on October 12, 2014, 08:38:07 PM
This thread was running through my mind as I was sawing this weekend..... Had a bunch of gravel filled read oak to get through.....a quick scrub with a wire brush helped that. Still, I went through 3 blades to get 1200bf. The 4th blade...put on fresh at the end of the mill, not the head like usual, just after I rolled the cant and dogged it. And guess what I forgot to do......yup....lower the back stops below the 4 cuts I needed to make. Just kissed the top of one, blade dove and there went the next 2 boards. Average cost there was not good.....
Then yesterday I was cutting a 1000bf of really clean curly sugar maple. I don't think I got more than 350bf out of each band before they would start to wave or leave unacceptable lines on the lumber and get hard to push. Not quite sure what was going on there... I used the last band on the mill from yesterday, with about 300bf on it, to cut 250bf of really old, dry cherry today with out a hitch and a completely smooth finish. I was surprised. That tough cherry cut like butter, except when I exited the butt.....
I'm using resharp Timberwolf 1-1/2, 7/8ths with I think a 10˚ hook.
That Sugar Maple is tough stuff. Try bands with less hook on the next pile of SM and see if you get better production.
DGDrls