The Forestry Forum

Hello, this is my first post in this forum.  :D  I'm a woodland owner in Michigan and I cut some cedar each winter while I try to improve the deer hunting on my land. This past year, I've also harvested some hardwood and balsam blowdowns and had them milled into onebys for my future needs. It's just me, my small tractor, my chainsaw, and a beatup old pickup with an equally beatup single-axle trailer but I would like to keep cutting my own. I'm not trying to make a living, I just want to make a little spending money and be a good steward. I think I should get a forest management plan and also, I would like some advice on ways to market what I cut. So I have some questions and would appreciate your patience.

First, a clarification. I market my cedar by cord, but I see lots of references to Mbf. I assume this means thousand board feet and that million board feet would be MMbf. If someone knowledgeable could confirm or correct that, I would be grateful.

When I lived in Virginia, I got a Forest Management Plan (FMP) from a county forester. Does Michigan do this through MSU extension offices or DNR or what?

It seems very few mills near me will accept small loads (1-2 cords) and it would take me a long time to cut big loads. I can only do about 10 cords per winter. Is it common for loggers or truckers to buy small loads and combine them to take to the mills? Any suggestions on how I can find buyers for tamarack, balsam fir and maple logs? There's a mill near me that will take almost anything, but they'll only pay $55/cd. (they make pallets).

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi, C-E, and welcome!

Yup, a management plan would be the way to go. This forum is eaten up with Michigan foresters, so you shouldn't have a problem lining one up. :)
You're right about the mbf, mmbf thing. Thousand and million, respectively.
Why not buy a small sawmill, and cut up that stuff, yourself? You'd triple your money, and your fun, too. :D

Welcome to the forum, Cedar Eater.  DanG is right about the forestry management plan.  These guys go to school to learn the various ways of taking care of a forest to help you obtain the environment you want.  Their envolvement is well worth the continued effort.  Don't just bring one in.....bring him back.

There are a few conversations in the history of the forum of members developing a woods for recreation and wildlife as well as for the trees.  Scan back when you have time, you will enjoy it.

Yep, think about the sawmill suggestion.  That's a lot of fun too and provides you with your building materials right off of your own land.  :P

Cedar Eater, What part of Michigan are you in? I am about 25 miles south of Houghton Lake.  I have sent out a few messages for some of these Michigan Forester types to get out of da woods and answer this post. We also have another member of this forum that cuts and markets cedar from his property. I will give him a buzz and see if he is in the bush or able to answer. That would be the timberbeast.

You might get started by going over to www.mfra.org Michigan forest resource alliance, and ordering all their free brochures, they even pay the postage. If you want to spend 10 bucks they also have a new video called "How to attract wildlife to your property" topics include forest management, food plots, and wetlands management.

I am sure we will get you some good info here, but in the mean time, make yer self at home. Pull up a stool put your feet by the stove and enjoy or tell a story or two...

A good contact in your area for information on  Forest Landowner Stewardship Planning, Timber Harvesting, Marketing, etc, in the Alcona County area is:

Sunrise Forestry Consultants
Don E. Krejcarek, Consulting Forester
223 5th Street
PO Box 16
Harrisville, MI 48740
(517) 724-6165

Feel free to tell Don that I referred you.

Greetings,  Cedar Eater! :)  I figgered at first you were a yooper,  but now I see it's Alcona County,  I could give you some contacts in the U.P.,  but that sure would be a haul for you!  I do pretty much what you do,  and your equipment description fits mine as well,  except I have a sawmill.  If you want to trailer in small quantities of cedar,  try and find a fence company near you.  The one I sell to pays 60.00/cord for 75" posts,  3" and up,  140/cord for 75" bolts,  8-10",  for 100" bolts 7" and up,  170/cord.  9'3" bolts 7" and up,  200/cord.  Makes it worthwhile to limb all the way to the top!  They'll take one post,  or 1000 cords,  but will only pick up 20-cord lots within 50 miles.  Lesser quantities you have to deliver.  Also will buy brush by the ton around Christmas time,  Cedar,  Spruce and Balsam.  
I've found a few private sawlog buyers who have gone as high as 400/cord for PERFECT Cedar,  10" and up,  check the ads in all the local papers.  You'll profit more by sawing into lumber,  I usually get $750/Mbf for green Cedar.
I also agree with hiring a forester for your management needs,  although I am not a firm believer in "food plots".  
I am lucky enough that most of my acreage is Cedar swamp,  and I'm not sure if I could wipe it out if I tried,  with the equipment that I own,  but you have to be careful,  if you clear out a parcel of Cedar completely,  it will rarely come back.
Can't help you out much on the hardwood,  as I mill all that I cut.  I have sold a few veneer logs,  but can't remember where,  I believe it was someplace around Ishpeming.  Pulp seems to be around 55/cord,  last I sold,  and I do cut it,  because I cut the "bad stuff" as well as the "good",  and pile it up until I get around 10 cords.  I think the last I paid for hauling was 9 bucks a cord.  There are some small places who take pulp by the pickup load,  but I don't know about your area.  Try and make some connections with pro loggers in your area.  They can be pretty tight-lipped about where they sell,  but you won't find many guys in the business who aren't nice.  If you go with a forester,  he will provide a wealth of answers on who is buying what in your area,  and whether they pick up roadside,  or if you have to deliver,  etc.
Hope this helps some...I'm sure if you stick around here,  you'll learn a lot from guys who know much more than I do!

P.S.  You really eat that stuff??  Hell,  I've found it in my socks,  my shorts,  my hair,  my boots,  uh.....just about everywhere........works better than Mennen Speed Stick!!

Wow, those were quick responses.

First, regarding buying a sawmill. They cost some bucks and it probably wouldn't get enough use to pay for itself. If it doesn't pay for itself, I can't afford it. I'm also concerned about marketing the lumber once it is cut. I can call a portable sawmiller when I have enough logs, but finding buyers for logs or lumber is my biggest problem.

I live about 10 miles south of Hubbard Lake in Alcona County. For those not familiar with the NE corner of the LP, that's about 35 mi. SSW of Alpena. I've checked out mfra.org and ordered their brochures.

Thanks Ron Scott for the forester referral, but I'm hoping to get some state or county funded expert assistance before calling in a pro. I figure some of my tax dollars should come back to me. If corn farmers can get a visit from a county agent, then I think tree farmers deserve the same. As I understand it, forestry consultants want a percentage of the sale and since I want to cut my own, I doubt they'll find me very interesting. If I'm wrong about that, please, let me know. I recognize the value of foresters, but I can't afford to adopt any.

Hey timberbeast, it looks like my first reply was being written while you posted yours. I didn't mean to leave you out.

I sell my cedar to a local fence company, but they're fussy. They only buy three cuts. 100" posts (3.5"@ small end) go for $90/cd. 75" logs (6.5"@se) go for $130/cd. 100" logs (9"@se) go for $200/cd. They quit buying in March last year and they probably will again this year.

Do you cut cedar through the summer or only in winter? I cut some last summer while road building, but that was miserable work.

What are bolts? Is that just another word for logs? The local cedar mill calls them logs or posts.

I think I do a reasonable job of managing my cedar swamp, but I have some higher ground with oaks, maples and aspens (pople) that I need expert advice on. I think I have markets for 86" oak and maple logs, but they weigh so much that I can't transport them. I also need markets for small loads of tamarack, balsam fir and an occasional pine. Ever since Homer D. Poe came to the area, the buyers for construction lumber have given up. Nobody can compete with the biggies.

I have some other questions regarding milled lumber, but I'll ask those on the milling board.

Thanks for your reply.

The Conservation District Foresters and the Cost Share Programs are really hurting since the Governor cut their funding through the Michigan DNR rthis year. Most offices don't have a service forester for private landowners anymore. Your tax $$$ are being used elsewhere.

A bolt is a short piece of pulpwood or a short log.

Thanks again Ron.

Can you explain the economics of working with a consulting forester? Do they all work percentage or do some of them consult on a fee-for-service basis? In other words, if I wanted a forester to explain what needed to be done in certain sections of my property and then possibly mark specific trees for me to cut, what would be the going rate for that kind of service? and would I even be able to find a forester who would work on that basis?

The reason I'm getting into the nitty gritty is that I had a bad experience with a forester who seemed like all he was interested in was bringing in a logger to harvest all the biggest trees so he could maximize his percentage. I can understand his motivation, but I want to enjoy living here for many years. My concerns about preserving some acorn bearing oaks for deer and turkeys meant nothing to him.  >:( When he started pushing a lump sum concept, I limited the area I would let him work in to my nastiest swampiest tamaracks and cedars. He called back two weeks later and said he didn't want the job.  ;D

I got much better cooperation from a county forester in Virginia. He produced a mostly generic but reasonably specific plan that incorporated both my hunting and my timber harvest goals.

I've scheduled a "property walk" with the local CD forester and she said she will probably give me a list of local foresters who can get me a "Forest Stewardship Plan". I'm hopeful that this will work out and id she refers me to the guy you referred me to, then he'll be my first call off that list. If I get a hard sell for a logging contract from just one off that list, I'll throw it in the trash and run the risk of doing the wrong thing to my hardwoods. :( I'd probably keep asking questions around here to minimize that damage, but better that than being unhappy with my little paradise.

cedar keep asking those questions till you are satisfied that the answer you get is the right one. This is one of the reasons I created the forum and the Timber Buyers Network. I saw way to many unhappy landowners over the years, and in most cases I think the landowner and the industry would have been better off if the landowner had educated themselves a little on what they wanted to do. You are the perfect example of what some knowledge can do. You will be the better for it.
 
But Imagine if you knew nothing and simply hired someone on the faith that they were going to do the right thing. Theres a chance that nothing right would happen.

For every bad forester or logger out there, there are 100 good consciencious ones out there trying to combat the reputation given by that one. If we have educated landowners, they will be able to do something we have never been able to do as an industry. Put that bad one out of business.

The going rate for consulting Foresters out here is about $50 to $65 hour.  They should prefer to work on an hourly, run and hide from the ones that will market the logs for you on a percentage.  A good company should have a Forester to run the show and several techs to mark trees and layout harvest boundaries and basically do all the ground work.

Geee fellas and gals, I reckon I have been cheating myself for the last 8 or 9 years. I went through a whole year of special training through Oregon State University Dept. of Forestry Extension and updated trainings since and still do not charge for my services after I donated the required return hours for the training.  I guess I enjoy helping people so much I forgot to charge anything at all.  There were 22 of us in the first class that graduated as Master Woodland Managers.  It has been about ten years now and the Univ. is finally getting around to training another group of folks, men and women and some couples.  They even have a Sister from an convent near Silverton, not very far from the state capital.  I might have to adjust my fee, if this is the going rate. I will just have them donate a small sum to the Shriner's Hospital in Portland.

Tillaway

On timber sales, most consultants charge a percentage fee.  Here in PA, most guys are charging 15%.  That often ends up being more than the logging expenses.  

For a job like is being discribed, an hourly fee or a $/Mbf or cord figure could also be used.  I've done them both ways.

Ron, don't you think working on %s could be an enticement for a forester that is not up to this forums standards, to high grade a stand so as to up his pay day? I would think that paying a forester by the hour would be more equitable. But I guess, you could take it the other way and he could take 7days to draw up a plan on an acre.

I think what it boils down to is, that the landowner needs to be educated enough to know what he wants and be able to choose the right guy to show him how to get there. Hopefully what he wants is not just instant cash.

Education is expensive any way you look at it --pay someone for his efforts or put out an effort in time to self-educate on results desired - or most expensive, stumble forward unknowlingly and incur disatrous results.  I like paying in the form of researching difinitive answers to my own desired results,and  results are sweeter and more rewarding as well !!

Impressive Bud man not a single = in that post.  ;)

T=H=A=N=K'=S== I'm trying ==Harder

Ron

You can hardly get a Forester to touch any harvest plan out Californy way on a percentage.  You have no idea what the various state agencies will throw at you.  You might have to change the plan two or three times to get it accepted.

The percentage pay works better in Oregon, but there is too much temptation to favor certain buyers over the others.  Also there is the program that Frank is involved with.  These folks give good advice and guide folks down the right path and it is free.  You got to love Oregon. ;D 8)

Jeff

That's exactly what is happening.  Slash for cash.  I see way too many 14-16" trees that are cut just because they are the right specie.  Few junk trees are making it into the yard.

When I started out in consulting work, we worked strictly on percentage.  Then, we started to do the figuring on how much it was costing us to do the work.  We were making big bucks on high value stands, and losing money on low value stands.  In effect, the owners of good timber were subsidizing the owners of poor timber for our services.

We had a couple of options.  We could charge higher percentages for low value timber or just not take the job.  Or, we could mark at a $/Mbf figure, and sell at a very low % rate.  We seperated our job into marking and marketing.  If the landowner wanted to market the timber, we just lost out on a little commission.  It really smoothed things out for the landowner.

Tillaway

Here in PA, we don't even have registration for foresters let alone cutting plans or state agencies to contact.  The only thing that has to be done is a soil erosion and sedimentation plan.  Those are pretty much cookie cutter documents.

Anyone can, and does, call themselves a forester.  We had one timber buyer, with an 8th grade education, calling himself a forester.  He knew logging, and milling, but was short on the management end.  

You guys are scaring me now :o

Jeff B said:
I think what it boils down to is, that the landowner needs to be educated enough to know what he wants and be able to choose the right guy to show him how to get there. Hopefully what he wants is not just instant cash.

My twin goals are to maximize the long term timber harvest potential of the hardwood area of my property and to always have some oaks old enough to be dropping acorns for my bambicidal tendencies. If these goals conflict, I need to know that so I can make an informed decision. It sounds like you're saying that I need to return to my alma mater (MSU '81) for a forestry degree so I can tell whether a forester is honest. That's obviously not gonna happen. That's why I want my society to provide a paid expert to give me a plan and while they're at it, to throw in some assistance with marking, marketing and negotiating the labyrinthe of laws and government programs. Is that too much to ask?  ;D Well yes, it probably is, but maybe if I pester them enough they'll give me three outa four.  :D

I'm getting the impression that federal or state oversight of foresters is a controversial topic. I don't know if Michigan requires certification, licensing, mimimum education or a chainsaw bar exam of foresters who provide Foresty Stewardship Plans, but when a company advertises on TV that they'll get us the most for our timber, I feel like I might be dealing with the equivalent of ambulence chasers.

How about a fixed price per acre (with minimums) for plans and marking? How about an hourly rate for consulting about marketability and for getting permits and assistance with cost-sharing applications? Then maybe a percentage rate for contracts and logger oversight? Quality of the forest only comes into play with the last of those. It seems to me that if forestry is a consultant profession, it should be like other consultant professions. Am I out of line here?

Looks like you know some of the right questions to ask and are smart enough to know the BS when you hear it. Keep asking till you like what you hear.  Most are like lawyers , they'll give you the first consultation free and their fees to follow.  Most will pay for themselves with their knowledge real quick.   Last free lunch I got came with a little indigestion thrown in for free !!   Good Luck !!

My Statements were not to make you think that most foresters will turn you the wrong way, because most won't. What I am saying was, learn enough to recognize the one that might. Pick a forester like you would a baby sitter.

Talk to people, get recommendations and referals.

CedarEater,

Doesn't sound to me like your goals conflict, and any good management plan could include both.

You've got to understand that most landowners don't even think about foresters or forest management until a logger knocks on their door or they need some cash and want to sell some trees.  So naturally many consultants are going to market themselves in terms of selling timber and getting the landowner more money.

If all you're looking for is a management plan and some advice, I think an hourly or per/acre rate is more appropriate.

Tillaway,

After reading some of Kalifornia's regulations I can see why no one wants to work solely on commission out there.  You could get yourself in a hole real fast.

We have a real hard time getting paid now.  In fact getting paid for a harvest plan is kind of a novelty.

Some day I might try and post some of the costs associated with a simple harvest plan and a few of the hassles we have encountered.

Cedar Eater

If there is a small woodlands owners association in your state, join them.  This will save you big bucks and you will find out who is the best logger and forester.  These folks usually have the same management goals as you.

If you do hire a consulting forester, have a clear priority for your management goals.  List them in order.  Stick with your list, don't change your mind once the forester starts his work.  This will allow the forester to a good job at a fair price.

Jeff B said:
My Statements were not to make you think that most foresters will turn you the wrong way, because most won't. What I am saying was, learn enough to recognize the one that might. Pick a forester like you would a baby sitter.

Talk to people, get recommendations and referals.

Jeff, please don't misunderstand me. I really appreciate your comments. I didn't take it that the average forester was out to get me. I'm sure the majority of foresters rank well above politicians, lawyers and realtors. ;D I just have to wonder what the good foresters are doing to help me know who the bad ones are. Do foresters have published standards and professional organizations that self-police? If so, can you point me to their websites? Can I get a look at a standard stewardship plan somewhere on the web? Are foresters an open bunch or a secret society? I see that the MFRA and SFI sites mention woodland owner outreach. No specifics were offered.

I'm trying to talk to people and get referrals, but until I meet with the CD forester, I'm trying to soak up what I can from people who hopefully have valuable experience. I'm hopefully developing questions that might help me avoid a big mistake.

Tillaway, I've looked for a local woodland owners org and the closest I found was the Michigan Forestry Association and the National Woodland Owners Association which both seem more political than practical. Any ideas on where to look for something else?

Cedar Eater,

Try finding some members in your area of one or both the organizations you have found.  They should help steer you toward a participating forester.  Yes, they are often political but they can network you to help you desire.

Before hiring any forest consultant ask for references, call the owner of the woodland and arrange for a visit.  Most owners are happy to show off their lands and the forester should be proud of their work.

Consultants services can vary and some do specialize.  On the west coast some consulting firms will develope business plans, help with financing woodlands, market logs, study mill feasibility,and keep biologists on staff.

The consultants out here run the gamuck of drawing maps by hand and working up cruises with a calculator to integrating mapping and cruise data collection with GPS and delivering your maps as a GIS coverage.  The latter is usually more accurate and is still cost competative.

Heck, I cruised the last nine years and I didn't even have to carry a pencil. 8)

Cedar Eater:  yep,  bolts are just some guys' way of saying "bigger than a post".  Some say "sawbolts".  Obviously,  unless you have no recourse,  you're not going to sell a 24" Cedar log as cordage to a fence company,  because if it's solid,  there's a lot of lumber value there,  so a "bolt" is kinda what you don't want to mess around milling,  but the fence company will dice it up into 6" stuff for fencing.  And,  yep,  they are picky!  But I've noticed a LOT of junk thrown off to the side that some guys try to pad loads with,  punky Balsam and stuff like that.  My guy knows that I only bring him really good stuff,  and he scales me high because of that.  He quit buying in late June last year,  but if you're a regular,  he'll take a last load if you already have it cut,  and offer you one more.  
If you can get your hardwood to where someone can get to it with a boom truck,  someone will come and get it.  Rather than dragging it on the ground,  build yourself a small dray and skid them out on that.  It's low enough to the ground that if you're in decent shape,  you should be able to load stuff by rolling it on with a cant hook.  I usually cut from when I can get back to my property until I can barely get out,  which in most years is about late April until around late November.  Most winters are impossible with my equipment,  since there's usually at least 3 feet of snow on the ground,  and they don't plow my road.  I could have really made some time this winter,  but my tractor is broken down on a skid trail,  that's the way it goes sometimes! :D
Sounds like you're getting your ducks lined up in a row pretty well,  though!  As for me,  I'm putting in 12 hour shifts at a foundry....egads!!  How come I can work in 90 degree heat cutting Cedar in a swamp dawn til dusk and feel great,  but work inside for 12 hours and feel like a corpse???
Gotta be mental!! 8)

That's really strange timberbeast. Around here, almost all of the cedar is cut in winter. We need frozen ground or snow or there's no access. My tractor has 4WD and a front end loader. I'll scoop deep snow or lay boughs on top for a green carpet if the snow gets too deep. I met a guy yesterday who skids five 75" bolts behind an old Evinrude snowmobile. It has a 22 inch track and it can reverse.

I heard a story from another cedarjack about a guy felling trees all winter and not skidding them out or building any roads with the boughs. He tried to get them in late March and sank his old cat up to the lever handles. Then it rained and then it froze. He returned to find a frozen pond with an exhaust pipe sticking out of it.  :D Not only did he lose his cat, but the logs were a total loss before the  next winter. :'(

The cedar mill here doesn't want cedar felled in May-August. He says the bark peels before he starts buying again in the winter. That's when the sap is the worst too.

I never get cedar logs in the 24" range. My biggest has been about 20", but I might keep that one and his brothers for milling into 4/4 or maybe 5/8 for my next deer blind or my pole barn. I get about 5 cords of 75" logs for each cord of 100" logs. I'm cleaning lots of blowdowns and blowovers. I'm cutting the curves up for firewood. The people with outdoor wood stoves love cedar because it's cheap, light weight, burns hot and doesn't make much ash.

One needs to select their Forester just as they do their doctor, lawyer, etc. and you need to know what your land and resource management objectives are. Be sure that they are a professional forester, certified, registered, belong to their professional forestry organizations, etc. etc.

Get references and don't be afraid to request them. Look at their work on other jobs, etc. Know the difference between independent professional consulting foresters and industrial foresters. Does the forester work with the ecosystem where all the parts are connected or are they just after the timber as you stated? Select one that knows how ro apply integrated resource management.

Consulting foresters may work on a commission, by the hour, by the acre, or by the project.

Check the Forum links for Society of American Foresters, Michigan Society of American Foresters and other State Societies, Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc. etc.

Cedar Eater,  you're right,  most cedar is cut in winter,  and frozen ground sure is a blessing.  Problem is,  I don't live up there,  it's 250 miles from home.  In order to keep the road clear,  you have to plow at every snowfall,  no way you're going 4 miles down a two-rut trail through 3 feet of snow unless you have a big Cat.  As a young buck,  I'd sometimes snowshoe in,  cut all the cedar I could,  and skid it a log at a time with a toboggan to my landing.  I have a shack on the property,  that I stay in when I'm logging.  Boy you should have seen me in those days!!  
You're right about the pitch,  too,  a lot of places won't take anything but winter-cut Cedar.  My problem is I have an Allis B,  no hydraulics,  hand crank,  1939.  You get more than a foot of snow,  the front tires "snowplow" every time you try to turn.  Yet,  it's small,  so my skidding lanes are narrow,  and I use tire chains all year,  and I use brush and slabs along the lanes to keep from digging in.  It ain't the easiest,  wearing Sorels in July and covered with mud,  pitch and sawdust,  but until I can afford better stuff,  it's the way I have to work.  If I lived up there,  I'd throw a plow on the ole' F250 and cut all winter,  get me a small Cat to skid,  and do my milling in the warmer months.  Hell,  a stack of Cedar logs will be fine for years in a pile,  if you're sawing them,  too.  If the bark comes off,  more the better,  it's really abrasive on my mill teeth!
Also,  if I let a couple of cords of posts sit for a year or so,  I can pull off the bark and the farmers down here in WI will give me three bucks a piece,  to use as fence posts.  The best place to contact to sell that stuff is horse farms.
Someday,  Cedar Eater,  I'll get where I want to be.  Until then,  I just gotta work at it,  bit by bit.  Those curved blowdowns make great dray runners,  by the way! :)  

Cedar Eater - (With-All Due Respect) You sound like a King Salmon swimming upstream without getting to share in similar rewards.  Got to be in the most relenting environ I've heard of yet.   Got to be an easier way!!  Have you tried a hot air balloon tethered to a loader??   How bout a snow-mobile ??  how bout taming a Reindeer and hooking him up. Santa only uses his one day a year !!  I'm gonna give this some more thought....Whew !!!

Maybe I could cut a feed for skid deal with Santa. :D :D :D When I cut cedar in late winter the deer sometimes feed on the tops within 20 yards of me. I guess they know that chainsaws don't cause SBDS (Sudden Bambi Death Syndrome). :o

It sounds like timberbeast has it worse though. Cedar swamps in warm weather are muck traps.

I've got an ancient Ski Doo that doesn't run and has a bad trac. When I get a round tuit I'll try to recommission it. My tractor is only five feet wide, but bucket swing (for the frontend loader) requires wide curves. With a snowmobile, I could have a 3' skidding trail. I've got a 1979 International Scout that also doesn't run and has a completely trashed body. If I can get it running, I've been thinking of turning it into a dray dragger.

So many plans, so little time (and funds).

Cedar Eater-- Ever thought of creating a neat sounding Foundation and asking for donations?? Hell's-- Bell's Nobody could ever pursue you for an explanation to where all the collections were going !!  How bout-- "Saving Bambi's Sanctuary"  Ought be good for a couple of Mill !!!

QuoteI went through a whole year of special training through Oregon State University Dept. of Forestry Extension and updated trainings since and still do not charge for my services after I donated the required return hours for the training.  I guess I enjoy helping people so much I forgot to charge anything at all.  There were 22 of us in the first class that graduated as Master Woodland Managers.  

   Boy, I like the sound of that! How many credits? I doubt very much University of Maine has that, but I can ask. I am a firm believer in getting the education yourself for the project you are doing. There's no way I could take a year off but I can do night classesd or 2x week if the location and schedule is right.    :P   lw