I decided a while back to test some new blades..... I got some Cook's SS, a couple of WM DH's and my standard TW's. The TW have always cut well for me, but I find the softer steel leads to some issues like the band bending when it pops off the wheels, or the set being drawn out to easily, or fast dulling. I did my test will all the same thickness and pitch of band. The only thing different between bands was 1-2˚ of hook.
The WM DH came out well in my test.....cutting wide pine and wide red oak. Nice smooth, flat cut. Fast and long to dull. Straight out of the box, this was a nice band. When it finally went dull--don't know how many BF it cut, but easily 800 in mixed species and none too clean--I put on a Cook's.
What the heck?
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Ok...I know...the back stop is up...but I didn't hit it...I swear ;D I rolled the cant just after the photo.....
So this band was fresh out of the box. Did they mis-set one side? or do Cook's bands always cut so extreme? I switched over to saw the pine in a clean cant. After 2 passes the customer made me pull the band--and I don't blame him--as the marks were too deep. So I put the band aside thinking it might not like pine. I put it on for the wide oak and again pulled it off after 1 pass....the scoring is unacceptable. I have one other Cook's band to test, but didn't want to put it on during these jobs just in case it, too, had the same issues. I have some ERC log cabin cants to make with only top and bottom cuts, so the scoring won't matter...guess I'll use the Cook's bands on that job until I can get them re-set.
I use Cooks's Super sharps, and that is not the norm. but I have seen it happen with several different makes as well. Don't forget to give Kasco a try, these work quite well for me too.
I have the same mill as you have.
Got some cooks super sharp 10 degree and have the same pattern in the cut .
I have one that's been sharpened need to try it.
TW has a .50 band for our mill I have one I will try it and let you know .
Jim/Bruno of NH
Farmer, I'll bet a tooth got bent in shipping or coil/uncoil Cooks bands cut smooth. Truth be known I've had good luck with all the bands I've tried and if someone put one on my mill, I couldn't tell without looking. I prefer TW due to running minimal tension on my homebuilt bandmill. Too much tension on a band is a crutch to cover up dull or improper set. Over tension and fatigue are the two big natural band killers. When you have a band that scores the cant like that you have one or two teeth set out of wack. I shut off the mill and pull the band around rubbing a piece of sticken top and bottom, you should be able to pick out the offending tooth and bend it back into submission with adjustable wrench or pliers. Frank C.
Definitely an overset tooth, maybe more than one. Reseting may not fix the problem. Most setters will not un-set a tooth that.s been over bent by whatever. Find the offending tooth or teeth un-bend, then reset. Also, it may be a raker tooth, which won't be touched in a normal setting operation.
I ran a batch of Cooks saws over the summer and they all cut as smooth a wm saws.
Take a close look at the saw, find the bent tooth, straighten it/them and look at the corners of all the teeth under magnifacation, but also take a close look at the boards where it first started marking, a rock in the bark would cause the marks you are seeing. That bottom picture looks like you are sawing dirty logs.
Over the summer metal strikes have thinned out the batch of saws and the last of my Cooks saws found an insulator yesterday.
I had good results with the Cooks saws but they don't like metal anymore then the rest of them do.
Quote from: backwoods sawyer on October 31, 2014, 11:29:30 AM
That bottom picture looks like you are sawing dirty logs.
The first time I tried the band was in a clean cant....that's how I like to test all my different brand bands....just so a stone or grit or metal doesn't wipe it out first time. The oak log was dirty...which was the other test I was putting bands through. A bit of dirt will damage any band, but TW bands don't like any at all....the WM DH does pretty good at lasting a while.
I'll check the band today while I'm resetting for tomorrow's cutting and see if I can find a bent /overset tooth. I also have a 2nd SS to try once I need to change out and have a clean cant.
I bought a 10 pack of cooks black xcel blades. I had mixed results with the finish on all 10. Some cut like yours some smooth. Well 2 out of the 10 cut smooth. I measured the set and they where all over the place. Now cooks will tell you on the cheaper blacks they cut the teeth then set. So the face is off of the tooth. I suspect it also is more of a production type mass produced blade. So the accuracy is not there. I set them myself and they cut perfect better than new very flat smooth cuts. With my home built mill I also run low blade tension. So the blade must be sharp and set well or you know it in a flash with bad cuts. Cooks says the silvers and golds get the tooth profile stamped then set then sharpened making for a premium blade. But you have silvers and you have the same results as my blacks. Very interesting. I may try some WM double hards my next go around just to see how they cut. Ooh yes I am now setting the cooks to .28 and they cut great. They where anywhere from .19 to .23 from the box new. And that is all on the same blade.
Quote from: golddredger on October 31, 2014, 03:13:44 PM
Ooh yes I am now setting the cooks to .28 and they cut great. They where anywhere from .19 to .23 from the box new. And that is all on the same blade.
I just put the wacky SS back on the mill so I can cut knotty cedar with it tomorrow where it doesn't matter what the finish is. When I did, I put the caliper to the band. 1st off it was a .50 band, not a .45 or .42, and then I found, like you did, that the set was everywhere on the band, and I also noticed some of the teeth are mis-shapen. Very poor quality for a company which blathers on--and has me convinced, btw--about how important band set, sharpness and flatness are......
If you look closely where my finger is pointing you can see a misshapen 1/2 raker tooth....
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I have pretty much decided to give the SS another try, but I might complain when I order more....I still have a fresh band somewhere. I am also definitely going to pick up a Cats Claw and Setter while their on sale. I just got 7 bands back from resharp and only 5 were done. The other 2 were missing a tooth or their machine didn't like them. That makes 15 "bad" bands--all on their 2nd or 3rd sharpening only, and 15 which need to go. And a 3 week lag time..... If I had the setter and grinder now I'd reset and freshen up this band before I used it.
If you look closely where my finger is pointing you can see a misshapen 1/2 raker tooth....
Is that where the band is wielded together? If it is there is nothing wrong there. Banjo
I agree, the band should be cutting smoother than that, but if the lumber is not going to be used rough in it's end use, then those marks are not enough to really be a defect. They will plane out about as easily as smooth band milled board. Circle milled lumber has deeper scores than that generally. Now, if it was a timber, then I would be more worried about it.
Quote from: Banjo picker on October 31, 2014, 06:10:14 PM
If you look closely where my finger is pointing you can see a misshapen 1/2 raker tooth....
Is that where the band is wielded together? If it is there is nothing wrong there. Banjo
Nope...thats a tooth...or 1/2 a one... The weld was somewhere else on the band....and it shouldn't effect a tooth at all. This tooth is only 1/2 as thick as it should be. I think I counted 3 or 4 like it on the band.
this will happen with most all the different makes. I say find one that you like and works for you. I really like the Cook's but the others do well too. just got to where I like the Cook's, the way I sharpen, it works,, I really like the way these blades drag the dust off.
Give them a call. I betcha you're not the only one.
I called about a batch that I thought was bad, due to what I thought was a heat treat issue, 5 bands out of 12 broke rather quickly. around 300 bdft. they were open but wanted me to send a sample. Well, after breaking the bands down, who was to say which was the break? I just bit it, and have not seen this issue again. A bad batch the way I figure it. It happens.
Chasing that rogue tooth is about like finding big foot.It bugs me .I would be curious as to the best method of locating the offender .I guess you could back the anvils out on a cooks setter and cycle it through checking each tooth.What was Frank C referring to ?By the way that bunch up in Kentucky is going to catch big foot.Any day now.
thats the undesirable surface I got with 2 of the 3 wm blades I ordered. I had a post going about it a while back. It worked out for what my lumber use was but I wasn't sure if it was what I had in mind for better quality lumber. I felt if 2 out of 3 had that defect I wasn't sure I would switch....still more blades brands to try. I don't believe this the way 2/3 of all their blades are or they wouldn't have such a great reputation.
Quote from: thecfarm on October 31, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
Give them a call. I betcha you're not the only one.
Agreed, Call Cooks and explain, while we can all learn from this, Only Cooks can fix it and I bet they will.
Best
DGdrls
I plan on calling Cooks and explaining the issue to them. I've got to call them anyway to make arrangements for ordering my sharpening "system".
Can anyone tell me their experience with the Cook's cams? Is it worth buying different cams for different blades, or can I get by just sharpening all my blades to the Cook's cam? I have mostly TW bands, but everything I have is 7/8ths.
What exactly does the cam do? Does it just form the shape and length of the gullet? What do the different adjustments of the cam do? I haven't seen any practical explanation of this...... Hook angle is determined by the angle of the grind rock, right?
There is no per say adjustment of the cam unless you reshape it. I have experimented with some in the past. The hook angle is determined by the angle the wheel/rock is tilted to. Gullet depth, shape and back angle are determined by the cam. You can adjust the advance for whatever tooth spacing you have. You adjust the height and length of advance with two different adjustment and this will set up how heave a grind you take. Kinda hard to explain it all in writing. The cam has a push arm attached to it that advances the blade. This arm can be adjusted longer or shorter and thereby controls how much you grind off the face of the tooth. The grinder motor is on a pivoting frame that has a bearing that rides in the outer edge of the cam that raises and lowers the grinding wheel. I've probably made this clear as mud now.
Slider, If you run a piece of sticken over a stopped band it will tend to catch on over set teeth, or at least they will feel a little different, then they can be bent back to specs. Those mountain monster guys are dangerous if they catch big foot it because he's on the ground laughing. Frank C.
All saws leave marks.I cant understand why band mills are supposed to saw lumber with out marks.I have a planer for finish lumber.Bands have induction hardened teeth.The rest of the band is soft.The tips of the teeth are set twice as wide as the body of the band.
Bandmiller2 Just what is stickin sorry to be so dense .You will have to keep me posted on finding big foot.I am not allowed to watch it anymore.Vick said that it's making me stupid.Worse than wraslin.Sorry got side tracked.
Farming sawyer dressing the stone is about the most critical part of sharpening.Also taking light passes.What are you getting for a setter?
I have had one blade out of my box of ten of Cook's super sharps that must have had a bad set from the start because it was diving and making wavy cuts. After a few passes and not seeing anything different from before I changed the blade and all was well again. So, although the day started out frustrating it ended on a great note as I was able to cut a couple of large pine logs (24"-26") in diameter with no problems. This is the only band I have had an issue with since buying the mill last spring from Cooks.
Slider, sticken is the usally 1"x1" pieces of wood we put between layers of boards for air movement so they will dry. Any handy piece of wood will do when you run it over the stopped band an overset tooth will feel different. Frank C.
Quote from: Robert Owens on November 02, 2014, 08:14:14 PM
I have had one blade out of my box of ten of Cook's super sharps that must have had a bad set from the start because it was diving and making wavy cuts. After a few passes and not seeing anything different from before I changed the blade and all was well again. So, although the day started out frustrating it ended on a great note as I was able to cut a couple of large pine logs (24"-26") in diameter with no problems. This is the only band I have had an issue with since buying the mill last spring from Cooks.
This was my issue. I was not concerned with the stray tooth causing the lines in the finish but the fact that the blades cut up down and cupped cuts brand new. Out of the 10 pack only 2 cut straight and flat. After setting the bad cutting blades without even sharpening them they went back on the saw and cut straight no problem. This is how I sorted out they set was all over the place and way less on one side than the other. Hence the diving or climbing cuts. I to am cutting pine. After a nice consiistant set to .28 they are slicing pine wonderfully.
I do believe they will work with us folks, it just takes time and shipping.
I am very sure they will! It is just the shipping time turn around time that is the killer. It was faster for me to set the blades and get to cutting. I willl talk to them more before I order the next batch. I am willing to stick with cooks and try them again just due to the help I got with questions when I ordered the first box. They where very good about helping.
Yes, I agree that Cooks will take care of things. I'm not upset with Cooks. Billy and all the people there have been great to work with and I called numerous times over a year before ordering my mill. I'll call when I'm ready to send the blades in for resharpening and have two more boxes on hand so no worries here.
You might want to preflight the other two boxes. If it is a consistant isssue they need to go back before you have to use them.
[quote author=slider link=topic=78785.msg1196723#msg1196723 date
Farming sawyer dressing the stone is about the most critical part of sharpening.Also taking light passes.What are you getting for a setter?
[/quote]
I'm going with the single tooth setter for now. Can barely afford the system as it is. And.now we've had 10" of wet snow and my sawing jobs are pushed off all
Over the place the chances of me
Getting the money together before the sale is over are sliding by......
Don't hold me to this Farmingsawyer but cooks puts that stuff on sale more than once a year.
Quote from: slider on November 04, 2014, 05:54:06 AM
Don't hold me to this Farmingsawyer but cooks puts that stuff on sale more than once a year.
The catalog claims its the last time at a price so low. In fact the quote I got for the cats claw and setter is lower than the catalog price for the sharpener alone.
Not sure if I should spring for the extra TW cam or just convert everything I have over to cooks tho. I might get the cam if there are other Sawyers in the area wanting sharpening. The mill manufacturer sells TW and Lennox. They're over an hour away with a 2 week lag time and rigid rules about drop off day. And there are at least 5 mills within 10 miles that I know of.
if it helps you any... I went to the cooks SS 8 degree bands some time ago....I also quit changing the cams out for all my different bands that I had. eventually they all got ground to the same cam.
I sometimes sharpen bands for other folks so I do have several different cams available. but now I only run the cooks ss 8 degree on everything.
Today's customers don't know what rough cut lumber used to look like and have gotten spoiled by the smooth finishes modern mills leave most of the time. I don't like it when I have a tooth out of sorts and it leaves marks on the wood like this either, but most customers say they couldn't care less because they are just going to use the boards for boarding something in or they plan on planning the lumber down anyway.
I am used to working with circular sawn lumber and actually like the sawmarks..... I even don't mind the over set tooth marks on these pieces....if I was going to use the lumber rough. However, as a wood worker that extra depth of set is a PITA.....it means one or two more passes through a single surface planer and it can mean a thinner than standard board. I'm working through a pile of clear cherry I sawed years ago when I was first learning on my band mill. The lumber I've been milling in the past couple of years is miles ahead and what I've been milling since I've gone on the road is light years ahead of where I was at before. I can still use the cherry and I'm glad I sawed it heavy because some of the 5/4 pieces, now that their dried, are going right down to 3/4 to clean up, which is a shame on a 12" wide clear cherry piece with figure.....
Having experienced all this myself, it helps to know what the intended use for the lumber is when I'm milling my customers logs so I can advise them as best I can. I'm still kicking myself for allowing a customer to talk me into sawing his clear oak 3/4". The trees were highly reactive and he ended up with a thick and thin board from every log at least....he liked the smooth finish the band was giving the oak and figured he wouldn't have to plane the finished, dried wood when he put it down for flooring.....even after we discussed shrinkage. In a year or more he won't remember my discussion, only that I "made his boards too thin".......
All this makes me think I should take my old sawyers' advise and name my business Thick n'Thin Lumber Co.
In the production mill running thin kerf saws, a saw marking was always checked before changing.
The rule of thumb was 1/8 grove and tearing wood.
If it was just leaving a ridge and the saw was running good, no saw change.
I explain to the customer that the extra 1/4" in 4/4 (1 1/4) is not so much for for cleaning up saw marks as it is for cleaning up issues that develop in the drying process, like bow, twist, humps and bumps ect and that they are better off a little thick then thin and let them make the final decision on size.
ran close to 700 bdft on a re-sharpened one today, had just a bit of the hitch we all hate, put 5 more through the sharpener, and all is good again. Pretty sure most blades will go good, but if a lil rock or hard debris hits the edge, a miss hit will occur. No need to mention the back stop, it does happen on edging 2x4's
OK folks this is post number 38 on a post that should have been sent to the forum sponsor right off the bat.
So lets just let it die. Banjo