We are getting our 56 acres of woods logged because of the EAB and most of the Yellow Poplar because it is stressed due to the dry conditions of the last 5-6 years. Taking out 1200 trees ranging from 14" to 36" . I know that is alot of trees but we are " backed into a corner " , cut them or lose them .The logger has bought the trees . We had numerous roads thoughout the woods . The loggers are using 2 cable skidders and a grapple skidder to finish the drag as some of the drags are 3000' .We have been using a consulting forester to market and run the job .
I went back into the woods on day 2 and I see one of the cutters had dropped about 10 big Poplars on top of each other across the trail with the butts facing away from the trail . I asked the cutter how he was going to get those logs out without destroying all of the young Maples he hadn't destroyed already and he said " I'm doing the best I can " . This cutter had no safety protection on , chaps , hard hat or hearing protection .
A lot of the trees are tall , 3 - 16' logs plus the top wood , making some logs 60' -70' long . At what point is it necessary to cut a log into 2 pieces so the leftover trees are not tore up or knocked over when the tree is skidded out ?
Several places along the trails which are now 12' - 16' wide , are nice trees tore up because the forked tops were not were not Trimmed up . My forester says he will mark those for removal , but most are pulp wood size and I have been told standing pulp is only $2.00-$3.00 a ton . That makes a 10" Cherry worth only about 75 cents .
In making a decision on what logger to use we got 5 bids .this logger's bid was twice as much as other bids, even beating out the paper mill he sells pulp to . He came with with a good recommendation from the forester . We are located just east of Cincinnati , Ohio .
This is just my rant . I thought every thing was going to go smoothly , but not .
That's the trouble with the bidding process. Who pays the most is the same as who will work for the least and time is money....should have addressed residual damage in contract. "You scar it, you buy it at 3x stump age." Sounds pretty unprofessional to me.
Damage Should have been addressed in your foresters perspectus.
thats alot of timber per acre, it would be next to impossible to have no damage. it should be minimized as best it can be. i would find a lay most it will go in and plan roads accordingly, may not be your roads.
the big timber will tear up what ever it hits, no way around that, all one can do is minimize and trade junk damage to keep young good trees.
He is going to run out of time because this is a dry weather job , and he knew it when he took it . They were supposed to start in July . Now they are in a rush to get the wood out . I have another 45,000 feet of large Red and White Oak marked to sell if this sale goes ok , but I doubt if it will happen . I've seen these trees grow for the las 55 years and it really hurts to see the woods tore up like this .
As mentioned before, the forester should have addressed most of these issues in the contract.
That being said some damage is bound to happen. Most loggers do their best to avoid it but trees have a mind of their own at times.
Also, during the actual logging is when things look the worst, clean up usually doesn't get done until the end, or sorta half heartedly as ya go along. Granted dude running around without at least a hat on is kinda stupid and a good way to get killed.
Best thing to do is have a chat with the boss logger and mention your concerns, its your land and they should be respecting it, even if they are under the gun as far as weather is concerned.
Like the other guys say it's impossible to cut big trees and not damage others on the way down especially when your cutting big timber. The logging crew that is cutting your job are they Master Loggers though the Ohio Forestry Association ? Safety equipment should be used accidents happen, being a professional it surprize's me that the consultant allows it.
Sounds like your logger is also selling firewood. Why else would they not have topped the tree before the fork?
If your contract contained language concerning residual damage I would have a long talk with the forester. The fact that the faller does not employ any PPE tells me he does not know what he is doing and probably does not understand directional falling to the extent he should.
If the r taking almost the whole tree they probably are going to chip the tops. Polar pulp can be 3-4 " tops but they don't want forks.
We have the same trouble around here, the mills employ larger loggers to cut, and its all a time is money game. I just pulled out of a "bidded" woodlot today, which I had a lower bid but a far better reputation than the next 2 high bidders. The landowner was extremely happy, did the extra dozer work, made sure everything was cleaned out of the skid trails, took down the hangars from a blow down, you get the idea. Now your left with a torn up woodlot, scarred up skid roads and a logger who evidently couldnt care much about his insurance premiums because none of our guys work without PPE.
Do you have anything in your contract about residual damage? Bigger trees with big crowns, especially oaks, will wipe out some some stuff on the way down. That is hard to get around. Sounds like the chopper is laying wood down backwards, you already know this though from what you have said. Also, taking trees out with the tops still on, are they chipping anything? I am sorry to say that is happens around here all to often. Guys come in cut as much as they can get out leave a mess and see you later. Getting paid the most for stumpage is not always what is best especially if you like your woodlot. I hope you make out ok and it all works out.
I would shut the job down and have a meeting with the forester and logger immediately. It is the forester's job to see that the job is done according to BMP's and established standards.
A lot of cutters don't take the time to cut the trees in the lay, just cut the big one, smash the others and get it out. Production often takes a backseat to quality. It is something I hate to see and is what we take the time to avoid. Fortunately we work with a forester who understands the way we work.
I spent 6 hours in the woods today with the forester. We missed the logger / owner . He came in with a empty truck and left real quick with a full one . His truck loader / slasher operator knew we wanted to talk with him . We talked to both cutters , and I asked them about using wedges to steer the trees better . On cutter said he had them in the skidded but didn't use them because the axe/hammer hurt his hands .they use their green wedge instead ,Timberjack. I walked one of the skid trails that they decided to locate themselves and in one spot they ruined every leftover tree in a 100'x100 ' area because they decided to go a different way .
We have many roads throughout our woods the forester and i even made a gps map of them , Which they were given ,but they have hardly used any of them .The forester and I laid out some other trails and took the skidder operators through them by using trees to be cut as rub trees .
We were watching about 8 poplars get cut on a hillside and they dropped every one across the boundary creek that they were told to be carefully about the neighbors property . This creek is about 20' wide in this area . I turned to the forester and said " who is going to clean that up " ? He said they will have to . Ha ,we will see . $ 1000.00 deposite ain't going to go very far .
I'm getting tired of typing . Goodnight . Thanks for listening .
I hate to say it, but it sounds like you may have to shut them down before anymore damage is done. At least have a meeting with the boss, if he's avoiding you and the forester.... >:( Then he probably already knows he messed up), the right thing for him to do is at least have the meeting and take his lashing before correcting what he can or risk losing the job altogether.
Have the forester arrange a formal meeting, tomorrow or the next day if possible, lay down the law, if they avoid you, shut em down, until a meeting can be arranged.
Best of luck to ya on this one.
Tom_Averwater
Like thenorthman says "shut him down" he is running totally out of control and you will be holding the bag.
Up here in Ontario if the logging contractor fails to provide workers compensation coverage the Compensation Board holds the land owner liable in event of a lost time injury and heaven forbid a fatality occurs.
From your description of skill level of the fellers and their lack of PPE there is an accident waiting to happen.
The Ministry of Labour inspectors would shut the job down and fine the fellers and their employer.
The real slick "crooks" up here would always offer exorbitant stumpage put some cash up front run wild, maybe tender a little more cash saying that there was not as much wood as they thought or just plain disappear.
My take on the matter.
Al
Professional Forester in Ontario
You own the land, block the road with a vehicle and a big note saying "You need to call me, do not enter" or something to that effect if you believe he is avoiding you. The issue of the neighbors land needs to be addressed before any more felling takes place around there, and in my opinion any damage over the line needs to be repaired immediately since he has no right to harvest on that land.
Shut 'em down. The forester (why are you paying him?) should have shut them down already, and I question his professionalism if he is recommending an outfit that doesn't even require their fallers to wear safety gear. I'd be really surprised if this logger has the proper comp and liability insurances, going by the details you've given.
I live 15 minutes from Batavia and I actually believe I know who is logging your property... I.M. If you have any questions I may be able to help with.. Sorry to hear about your troubles..
falling timber across the boundry is a no no.........falling timber into a creek is a big no no at least here it is.
sorry to hear this, please don't assume all loggers are this way.
The way it sounds, the forester might be in the loggers back pocket $$$.
Ask the forester to shut the job down pronto, sounds like BMP's are not being followed which in turn could lead to serious implications for the man who has the timber Harvesters licence as well as the forester if the job can't continue to follow these BMP practices and the cutting plan . In Mass dumping trees over a boundary , plus a brook would be a serious no, no. The service forester would really be, well bull cheese if he saw that. Good luck and hope you get this resolved quickly.
David l
Shut them down before it gets any worse.
Did you receive payment up front or is it pay as cut or settle after on shares?
If you did not receive payment up front you have little leverage. Sure you can shut them down and deny access but if they owe you money you may be hard pressed to get it. On the other hand if you have not been paid the bid price you may have little assurance of getting a fair deal anyway.
You mentioned a $1000 deposit. Hopefully that is $1000 above the bid and you already have been paid for the trees marked.
Have you already paid the forester? If not I would let him know in no uncertain terms that his payment is dependent on his getting the logger lined out. Normally that is part of the foresters contract - he is responsible for supervising the harvest. Or at least that is how my contracts with consulting foresters read. I was paid in full before the first tree was cut and the forester was paid by me after the site was closed out to my satisfaction.
I've seen this type of work done on too many jobs where the landowner is dealing directly with a logger, but never when a forester was on the job. It's time to get a grip on the forester and make him do his job.
I'm also sorry to say you are going to have trouble getting paid fairly for what he is taking from your woods. Those high bid prices are always a red flag to trouble.
We were paid in full before he started . The $1000. Deposit is for cleanup assurance when they get done , that amount was the forester's idea . I wanted more but he said that if it was more it might make some loggers shy away from the job at bidding time . Now I see that the deposit won't go very far if I have clean up the boundary creek . I haven't been back there today as it rained last night and they aren't dragging trees . The ground is getting wetter .
Where do I find a copy of BMPs for Ohio ? Would the service forester have one ? He started the marking of the trees with me but ran out of allotted time with me , the state forester is only allowed to work with a landowner 3 days a year . We marked for the 3 days . Then I had to hire this consultant and we marked trees for another 10 hours . Someone might be right in saying is he in the logger's pocket .
He told my brother yesterday that he has just about used up his time that he allowed for this job .
Before this logging crew gets burned at the stake, lets see some pics of the said damage. It may very well be a crap job...so lets see it.
So you marked the timber after the forester was out of time? Did you mark enough smalls to get the timber down and out w/o damage to the young timber? I cut a FS job where the wild stand was marked very very poorly, but th pine sets were pretty decent. One day I called my project manager due to the fact the markers had not given me any room to fall a large seed pine w/o taking a save tree. I told the guy, "Hey, theses crack jack markers marked a big pine in the absolute middle of a circle of save trees...I am going to take one out when this tree goes down, no way around it." My project manager said do the best you can. I called back in 5 minutes and told him I uprooted one of the save trees, nothing I could do about it. He came out the next day and marked the accidental and I cut it off the root ball and it went to the landing.
Had the marking crew done a better job, there would have been no damage. Now I'm not saying you did a bad job marking but there is always the possibility that there was too much save timber in and around the large poplar.
in my opinion i would send the contractor packing and fire the forester. when i cut if the tree is going to nock another down i cut these trees first, nothing worse than up rooted trees. sometimes you miss some but cutters must do their best to prevent damage, most foresters understand. with big wood alot of residual trees must be cut. as far as the mess make them clean it up. no matter how good you are logging makes a mess,but it can be kept to a minimum. hope you get the problem settled.
get hold of your county and state foresters, they can get things straight. the deal with the creek would be highly illegal here and water resources enforcement would be involved.
if you had done a percentage deal, you could run them all off your property.......as it is i fear there is little you can do other than turn them in to the local county forestry guys........you might try your soil conservation office as well.
I'm with CCC4- let's see some pictures. I have also worked for landowners who were a pain that consider a 4' maple sapling a save tree. We are only getting one side, FWIW. But, if it is as you say (I'm not doubting you) I would find a way to shut things down until things are worked out.
My biggest petpeve when cutting private, land owners who want the property logged but no collateral damage ! And no it makes no sence to cut the trees in half to skid them out!!!
The service forester was doing the marking and measuring ,I was running the tally for them . I'll have to try to get some pictures on here .
I would not call the state enforcement folks at this point. If the logger does not address the creek issue that may very well fall onto you as the landowner as far as fines and such go. Get a hold of the logger and all three of you have a conversation then go from there. Throwing fuel onto the fire by bringing in enforcement will not help settle this at this point. If he blows you off that is another story.
Consider me the odd man out here. Some jobs I been on, no matter what you do the landowner isnt happy. Some jobs no matter what you do, it still looks bad no matter what you do.
I had a landowner once tell me his land looked bad after someone else logged it, I looked and thought they went above and beyond. You got payed twice as much as the next bidder, isnt that worth something? Plus it sounds like you will get your 1000.00 security money back too.
I fully understand snags, SOME rubbed trees, and the line trees should have been pulled. Sounds to me you should have done it yourself if everything was so critical.
I mean, you are having your woods logged, right?
It's logging not landscaping!!
Carelessness is not good but I can say all landowners seem to be never happy with end result regardless.... most want to harvest and sell 1,000 tress at several hundred tons and want it to look as tho it never happen...its going to look bad regardless of what a logger does...
Not saying this case here is what's going on, just telling my and several other loggers experianses....?
i understand what y'all sayin, its the falling over on another owner and in the creek gets me.......maybe things are different there.
Tree's over the creek and over the Property line are a givin, yes they should have been pulled or pushed aside where they belong. But tree's on skid trails are gonna get caught here and there, especially around turns and so on. You cant pull 200,000 BdFt through a few skid trails and not expect it and SOME surrounding timber to look like hell afterwards...
Around these parts, our big timber is just that, BIG . The red oaks, white oaks, poplars around these parts can push 80+ feet with monster crowns... When they come down, they do just that.. Is it justifiable to cut a dozen immature trees that arnt really ready to harvest yet to fell one ? It's a hard call sometimes, but if I can chance it and leave some of them and save them I try too, but it doesn't always work out as planned. Some of these will do what they want to do regardless of skill level when it comes to felling..
I see some individuals on here and other forums make remarks about felling with BMP's and so on but I also see some of the timber they are cutting and where. I can fell 40' tree's 16'' at BH in all flat thinned out ground all day long and never hit another tree.. But come to my part of the woods and that will never happen regardless who you are or your skill level...
Anytime a property is logged and skid trails are cut, and tops are left behind, its gonnna look like T total H*** afterwards.... Period...
Like everyone has said, if you make a valid effort to do a decent job then thats all you can do. We cut some big oak, and you better clear out what ever is in its path, or its toothpicks. Im guilty of falling trees over a line, or over a stream but you yank them back and clean it up. Yeah a 200mbft harvest is going to look like a hand grenade went off either way, but if the tops are slashed down and damage cleaned up it doesnt look so bad. Its a double edge sword, the good loggers always get a bad reputation for the few who make a mess, cut and run or stiff the landowners.
We've all had our share of problems, whether they be self induced or out of our control. Make any excuse you want, I knew all I needed to when I read the faller left his wedges elsewhere because it hurt his hands to drive one. In that case, stay home. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
Quote from: Jhenderson on November 07, 2014, 08:08:15 PM
We've all had our share of problems, whether they be self induced or out of our control. Make any excuse you want, I knew all I needed to when I read the faller left his wedges elsewhere because it hurt his hands to drive one. In that case, stay home. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
i thought the same thing
Quote from: Jhenderson on November 07, 2014, 08:08:15 PM
We've all had our share of problems, whether they be self induced or out of our control. Make any excuse you want, I knew all I needed to when I read the faller left his wedges elsewhere because it hurt his hands to drive one. In that case, stay home. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. I dare you.
But its just so much faster to let the tree decide where it wants to go. :D
Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 07, 2014, 07:58:36 PM
Like everyone has said, if you make a valid effort to do a decent job then thats all you can do. We cut some big oak, and you better clear out what ever is in its path, or its toothpicks. Im guilty of falling trees over a line, or over a stream but you yank them back and clean it up. Yeah a 200mbft harvest is going to look like a hand grenade went off either way, but if the tops are slashed down and damage cleaned up it doesnt look so bad. Its a double edge sword, the good loggers always get a bad reputation for the few who make a mess, cut and run or stiff the landowners.
one once in a while.....not 6-8 right in a row...........if looks intentional it will get a warning the first time......next time a fine. thats here, i understand regs are different in other places.
Jhenderson>
Ok, lol you've got a good point ... I must have missed that part or forgot about it, that's obviously a sign the feller isnt even trying...
I guess I cant really relate because I always try to the best I possibly can weather it be felling,skidding or any part of the harvest process..
I know I get mad anytime I see a poorly ran logging job. There was a ragtag crew operating locally here a few years ago. They did a job that could be seen from a busy highway, and three years later you can still see the deep ruts in the low ground, hill side washing out, and all the busted trees and leaners they left standing. They didn't even bother to push the end cuts to the edge of the landing. They stayed in business for about a year.
I have a difficult time controlling my temper whenever someone questions me about it. This is the logging example the public gets to see. My jobs are not landscaped, but they are as good as I can make them relative to the work that was done.
Quote from: cutter88 on November 06, 2014, 07:12:46 PM
My biggest petpeve when cutting private, land owners who want the property logged but no collateral damage ! And no it makes no sence to cut the trees in half to skid them out!!!
If your trying your best not to damage leave trees cutting them in half makes all the sense in the world. A lot of the times the foresters in my area will put into the contract no skidding stems longer then 34 feet.
I second Bill M's thoughts on cutting trees in half. I do it if necessary as it will create less damage in the residual stand, it's easier on the equipment also ( cable Skidder ). Especially in a shelterwood cut when taking the mature trees over a period of time and wanting to promote whats there for future harvest. Some times though we all know damage is gonna happen cause trees are big and they hit the ground hard and always are bigger once on the ground. I am hoping to see some pic's of this job as it's kinda hard to see through words.
Was wondering about skid roads and who laid them out as that is a important factor here also. Even if woods roads where existing they may have not worked for the operators do to corners, widths,etc. waiting for pic's.
David l
I usually pull tree length cause cutting them in the woods takes longer but I try too keep my roads straight and if on is gonna flatten a bunch of leave trees I will cut them in half in the woods. The lot I'm on now I have too cut some of the oak in half cause it is fairly hilly and I can't make straight roads
Sometimes it is just easier to fell them were they are pointing. Than cut them in half to get them from out behind a good tree u want to keep. Ninja skidding.
I carry a 4' survey stake with a tape mark at 3', mark the big ones right on the stump. Cut the bigger stuff in half, your only going to pull so much anyway. Best way to roach a small skidder or loader is grabbing too much all the time.
It took a long time, and Im still learning but there is an art to hooking cable, you can save yourself alot of frustration and smashed trees. Hooking under the butt, rolljng them, hooking a drag and fishing stuff out with the hitch. Smash and go just makes more work.
I agree with cutting big timber in pieces if it means less damage. I measure trees that come out in more then one piece as they lay. Easier on machine as mentioned and taking a little extra time to leave a better looking stand goes a long way with the landowner. They are your advertising!
Yeah I agree with cutting in two if needed too not make a mess but if the roads are relativly straight i pull tree length
A land owner will say they don't want wide skid trails cut then gripe cause of trees being damaged along those skid trails. .. cut a road that actually fits the job at hand and leave all trees along it in pristine sbape, then they gripe about wider cut skid trails....
A man needs a chopper to fly out the entire tree, top,stump and all to please most landownefs.... oh and don't forget seed and sew the entire wood lot from foot step damage...
Michigan DNR specs for select cut timber sales requires CTL at the stump with nothing over 16' being transported to the landing.
That would suck. We cut our logs at 17' 4" but skid tree length unless damage will occur. Would like to see some pics of the timber sale in question. Does sound like logger is putting cashin the forester's pocket by not wanting to do anything about it. Hopefully I'm wrong and everything turns out good for all parties involved.
Quote from: Corley5 on November 08, 2014, 08:02:57 PM
Michigan DNR specs for select cut timber sales requires CTL at the stump with nothing over 16' being transported to the landing.
Wow! So you guy's must have to import 20' lumber then.
Sometimes lawmakers can regulate us into a corner.
You northern guys would DIE if you saw most jobs in the Southern Appalachians! Most (not all, but most) jobs when completed around here look like Hiroshima, the day after........Smash and grab!! That seems to be the m.o. for most outfits around my parts. I get alot of work because I leave a clean job and an intact woods (to the best of my ability).
That being said, I am fortunate that none of my landowners have ever griped about rubbing a bunch of young Black Gums or soft Maples....I do my best to be careful about leave trees, but in the end I am in this business to make a living and have to find the happy median between productivity, profitability and conservation etc.....
Tom
This harvest job does seem unprofessional and little shady.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 09, 2014, 04:45:25 AM
You northern guys would DIE if you saw most jobs in the Southern Appalachians! Most (not all, but most) jobs when completed around here look like Hiroshima, the day after........Smash and grab!! That seems to be the m.o. for most outfits around my parts. I get alot of work because I leave a clean job and an intact woods (to the best of my ability).
That being said, I am fortunate that none of my landowners have ever griped about rubbing a bunch of young Black Gums or soft Maples....I do my best to be careful about leave trees, but in the end I am in this business to make a living and have to find the happy median between productivity, profitability and conservation etc.....
Tom
thats some thong most land owners don't know about......trash trees and good trees.
i will tear the crap out of gum holly and maple just to save poplar oak pine saplings.
oh, the buyers want 42' and 52'........got to plan ahead.
Quote from: ga jones on November 07, 2014, 01:00:38 PM
It's logging not landscaping!!
I disagree. Logging is landscaping, but on a much larger and more permanent scale. When a job is done the after effects take decades to come to fruition...or repair. The trees harvested and the the level of residual damage are the deciding factor on what will be there 50 years in the future.
Quote from: RCBS on November 09, 2014, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: ga jones on November 07, 2014, 01:00:38 PM
It's logging not landscaping!!
I disagree. Logging is landscaping, but on a much larger and more permanent scale. When a job is done the after effects take decades to come to fruition...or repair. The trees harvested and the the level of residual damage are the deciding factor on what will be there 50 years in the future.
It all depends on the landowner, if they want you to be extra careful and it is costing you money doing so, then the job should be bid accordingly. We are in this business to make money. I cannot take boat loads of extra time to leave a "city park" behind. I just got off a job where the landowner had dune buggy trails all over and was super anal about keeping these open. I didn't think much about it, but theses things were everywhere!!! Spent more time cutting and piling brush on a mountainside than actually logging! Around here people just expect that when a property is logged, it is going to look like crap........ they want the cash from their timber and that is all most care about. You very rarely find someone who actually cares about the future of the timberlands they posses. As I said before I get alot of work because of the pride I take in my work, but I ain't gonna go broke making a site look pretty.
Tom
Well Tom your first mistake was hiring a logger that uses a cable skidder. I had a logging job done with a cable skidder once and that will be the last time a cable skidder will ever be in one of my woodlands. I require that all trees are felled, limbed, and bucked at the stump either by a processor or by hand before being loaded onto a forwarder and CARRIED to the landing. Now skidders are fine if you are doing a clearcut but they have no place in a partial harvest.
I disagree with that last statement plenty of guys can do a good job with a skidder it's more about the operator than the machine
congrats for opening the next can of worms!!! :o
Oh, and I don't happen to just have a forwarder in my back pocket. ::)
What I keep thinking about is on day two the landowner griping about trees thrown backwards or sideways.
Well, any job I ever cut had to get started somehow and most often when starting on a line you have to throw them that way, to stay off the neighbors side. Once I got a hole started, Then I could do the right thing and lay them butt first (most times) for the drag/skid.
Wedges hurting the hands was probably the fellers response once he saw there was no winning with the landowner?
this guy hired a forester that has little hands on exp. which brought in this logging crew that does terrible work, I have seen it over and over, there are good guys n there are bad, guys you can do a very nice job with a cableskidder. if you dont think so let me tr, I will show you how its done, You might think I'm bragging, im not I'm stating the truth, its who I am, n there are a hundred others like me, you just have to find them, this is a classic example of an undereducated landowner making a poor choice, and is now paying the price, and will continue to pay till he gets enough nerve built up to stop this operation, I know of alot of STATE CERTIFIED MASTER LOGGERS that would not work for me because the only reason they are state certified is so they can be on the list n get jobs but in reality they are just as bad .One thing that really upsets me is when a cutter tells you he doesnt use or carry a wedge now I dont want to offend anyone but I just cant imagine I have been wearing my pouch for 20 yrs. n I carry 4 wedges at all times n yes I use em not wearing a pouch is sorta like a carpenter bumbling around on a job without his nailapron it just dont make sense imo
Tarm, cable skidders can be very beneficial in any woodlot and do a broad spectrum of forestry practices, and with the right operator are just fine in most cases here in New England.. What you do in your woods though is your business. That prior statement of yours was unnecessary, It rubbed a nerve real bad in me as I make my living with one of them there cable skidders this time of year. Good day Sir.
David l
Quote from: Maine logger88 on November 09, 2014, 05:39:42 PM
I disagree with that last statement plenty of guys can do a good job with a skidder it's more about the operator than the machine
exactly
any time the owner gets payed up front for all the timber, that crew is gonna be in a hurry. they probably get paid piece rate and it prolly ain't much.
Quote from: David-L on November 09, 2014, 06:20:27 PM
Tarm, cable skidders can be very beneficial in any woodlot and do a broad spectrum of forestry practices, and with the right operator are just fine in most cases here in New England.. What you do in your woods though is your business. That prior statement of yours was unnecessary, It rubbed a nerve real bad in me as I make my living with one of them there cable skidders this time of year. Good day Sir.
David l
i'll add to that and say a grapple skidder can do a good job as well.........as stated it depends on the operator.
We had one fellow tried using a forwarder here a few years back. He was broke in 6 months. Try it in these hills and you will not survive, unless you want to build a road every 50 feet up the side of the hill.
I'm a logger and an owner of a northern hardwood forest . If I were to have someone else harvest my timber I would prefer they use a forwarder. If they were to use a skidder whether cable or grapple they would be required to CTL at the stump and skid nothing over 16'. I wouldn't allow anything over 16' to be hauled on the forwarder either. I have no problem with skidders that have conscientious operators ;) ;D :)
Quote from: WH_Conley on November 09, 2014, 06:27:11 PM
We had one fellow tried using a forwarder here a few years back. He was broke in 6 months. Try it in these hills and you will not survive, unless you want to build a road every 50 feet up the side of the hill.
a guy tried it here.......that thing stayed buried or set on the landing.
We had a meeting with the forester and the logger Friday . The forester rode to the farm with the logger , as he lives on the way here and also he told me so they could talk about things . We went into the woods and talked about our concerns. Just about everything that my brother and I voiced our concern about brought criticism and a condescending attitude toward us . I showed him where the skidder had taken a short cut around a culvert and ripped one of my Maple tap trees . He says " I don't see any tire tracks " . He shut up when the forester said they were going around it . I brought the fact that fallers didn't try to "steer" the trees much if any , all I got was , we have too many trees to cut to wedge every one . The only wedge they use is the big green one .
The treetops in the creek more brought more bla, bla ,bla . The forester told me they would have to remove them . We'll see if that happens .maybe I'll just take it out of what I still owe him .
The trees that were felled across the trail were at least 100' from the line fence .
We have another 45k ft. Of Red and White Oak marked that we Thought might sell to him , but not now. I'd rather see it fall down and rot .
I'm hoping to get out and take some pictures tomorrow . My boy has been keeping me busy hunting . Thanks for listening .
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 09, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
The forester rode to the farm with the logger , as he lives on the way here and also he told me so they could talk about things .
Hmmm....
If it was me I would fire the logger and forester. Doesn't sound like the forester is looking out for your best interests and that is what you are paying him for. Read your contract real close to see what your rights are to cancel it.
Quote from: Corley5 on November 09, 2014, 07:04:04 PM
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 09, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
The forester rode to the farm with the logger , as he lives on the way here and also he told me so they could talk about things .
Hmmm....
X2 ;)
If your contract won't allow stopping the work look at other options. You can make it so that he want's to leave. Have OSHA come pay a visit with his cutters now wearing PPE. Several ways to make it too hard on him. If you have a contact with someone in the DOT they can be waiting everytime his truck pulls on the road. Even remind the forester he may earn a bad reputation. I hope it don't come to this but there are ways to make him say good bye if it's really necessary. But beware. Paybacks are sometimes not plesant.
Yep, got yer self a jerk on yer land...
As far as Forwarders vs. Line Skidders, Good luck getting a 32' log on a forwarder around here, the shortest length the mills accept is 16' (and they really don't like em). The ground is steep and where its not steep its soft. Even my little skidder has trouble with sinking sometimes.
It all comes down to operator, I regularly pull 36' logs with a cable skidder, yes a few trees get rubbed but its all planned ahead, and those are dealt with before I leave a site, I've made a career of picking up the crap left after another outfit has destroyed a forest...
Don't get me wrong there is a place for a forwarder just not anywhere near here.
It may be time to bring in the 3rd party. Contact your state forester about your concerns [ best management practice]? and tell your forester you are contacting, contacted, the state forester. This could help all parties.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 09, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
We had a meeting with the forester and the logger Friday . The forester rode to the farm with the logger , as he lives on the way here and also he told me so they could talk about things . We went into the woods and talked about our concerns. Just about everything that my brother and I voiced our concern about brought criticism and a condescending attitude toward us . I showed him where the skidder had taken a short cut around a culvert and ripped one of my Maple tap trees . He says " I don't see any tire tracks " . He shut up when the forester said they were going around it . I brought the fact that fallers didn't try to "steer" the trees much if any , all I got was , we have too many trees to cut to wedge every one . The only wedge they use is the big green one .
The treetops in the creek more brought more bla, bla ,bla . The forester told me they would have to remove them . We'll see if that happens .maybe I'll just take it out of what I still owe him .
The trees that were felled across the trail were at least 100' from the line fence .
We have another 45k ft. Of Red and White Oak marked that we Thought might sell to him , but not now. I'd rather see it fall down and rot .
I'm hoping to get out and take some pictures tomorrow . My boy has been keeping me busy hunting . Thanks for listening .
letting your timber rot is not gonna help this. find a good logger to harvest it, talk to your county forester, talk to other landowners. i promise you there is good loggers, you just don't know about um. word of mouth is powerfull, happy landowners will tell you who cut there's and so will unhappy ones.
Quote from: luvmexfood on November 09, 2014, 07:37:16 PM
If your contract won't allow stopping the work look at other options. You can make it so that he want's to leave. Have OSHA come pay a visit with his cutters now wearing PPE. Several ways to make it too hard on him. If you have a contact with someone in the DOT they can be waiting everytime his truck pulls on the road. Even remind the forester he may earn a bad reputation. I hope it don't come to this but there are ways to make him say good bye if it's really necessary. But beware. Paybacks are sometimes not plesant.
I've thought about things like that ( OSHA and ODOT ). The town police chief is a real "good old boy " too . Paybacks , yes I've thought of that too . Things could get worse in the woods .
A forwarder would be about as useful as teats on a boar hog around here. Too steep, rocky, wet etc....
That being said, we (contract loggers) do ultimately work for the landowner. I am not a fan of purchasing stumpage lump sum. Hard to take money back or ask for a refund if either party ain't satisfied. I purchase timber on the percentage (don't crucify me here guys) if the timber averages better than expected, both parties benefit. Same if the timber doesn't grade like it ought to, both parties see the results. We discuss the parameters of the job, come to an agreement and go from there. This way if the landowner is not satisfied, he can fire me. If the landowner is too ridiculous to get along with I can fire myself! ;) And both parties have their money up to that point. No more no less. Works for me and keeps my landowners happy.
Tom
some of you are almost ready to declare war here and we still havnt seen any pictures of the job yet. as far as skidder vs fowarder. you will have less ground disturbance with a fowarder your not dragging anything. the regen is still in the center of the trail all there are 2 tire tracks less mud in the yard cause your not pushing your wood up and the wood is clean
It appears that some management of the job is needed by your professional forester. From what you are telling us, the timber harvest appears to have been poorly planned, operated, and managed. If you are not getting satisfactory resolution of your concerns, it may be time to have a professional 3rd party review of the situation and your contract terms.
hmmmmmm... processor and forwarder big enough to handle logs 36" inches plus in diameter and 100 foot to the first branch, and all on a slope thats at the marginal point for a wheeled machine. Now that I'd like to see. What works with one size of log in one type of ground can be madness somewhere else.
Gentlemen: The simple fact of the matter is that skidders skid. They will impact the forest floor from the stump to the landing. Now all this happy talk I hear from cable loggers about "bumper trees" or "we'll smooth out the ruts" or "we'll clean up the landing" is just lipstick on a pig. There shouldn't be any bumper trees. There shouldn't be any ruts. There shouldn't be a mess on the landing. Now I admit that there are jobs that are to steep or rocky or where the timber is to big to use a forwarder. I aim to offend no one but I am firm in my belief that if a forwarder can be used it should be used.
Andy your absolutely right where they can be used they should be used, unfortunately its a very narrow window as to where they can be used, different markets different ground, have to use the machine best suited for it. And in all reality a line skidder by far more versatile than any forwarder ever thought of being.
Ruts are avoidable, bumber trees are used as that, and then removed at the end of the job, skid trails are skid trails a forwarder tears them up as bad as a skidder or a Dozer. As has been said by many it all depends on the operator.
You want minimal disturbance declare it a wildlife refuge and let fire do its work.
I feel sorry for Tom. He did not get the job that he was expected. He trusted the people that he contacted. Too late now,but this is where it helps to check out past jobs of the forester and the loggers.
so a forwarder dosen't rut? fyi some species regen better if you do disturb the ground. this all goes back to what folks think looks good.
Here we go.... whiteflag_smiley
Whats works in the lake states doesnt work everywhere else. We get ALOT of money to go roll forwarders back over. Ive got one, works great if you can bunch to it but 75% of my jobs it will never happen. You wont have to many "bump trees" on the trail with a decent sized forwarder because you have to cut them to fit thru the trail. :D CTL isnt cost effective around here, and the guys who do it mostly chase softwood. Im planning on a harvester/ 6 wheeler when I have more money to burn but its not the 100% solution.I will post some pictures of "forwarder friendly" terrain when I get home, you would need a big box of depends to wanna cut this with just a forwarder, and a big wad of cash for me when you flop it. 8)
Ladies and gentlemen.... I live 10 minutes down the road from the O.P.... I know this ground as I work it everyday...
A forwarder around these parts would be of no good past the landing... There's no way in H*** a man could use a forwarder around these parts... Maybe, just maybe, one tract out of every 15 a man might be able to put it to use to a certain extent...
Quote from: RunningRoot on November 10, 2014, 09:19:51 AM
Ladies and gentlemen.... I live 10 minutes down the road from the O.P.... I know this ground as I work it everyday...
A forwarder around these parts would be of no good past the landing... There's no way in H*** a man could use a forwarder around these parts... Maybe, just maybe, one tract out of every 15 a man might be able to put it to use to a certain extent...
And the specific reasons would be... what?
I guess really what it boils down to is for the OP to let them finish and then take the logger to court.
I mean, who is to say it is being done properly or not?
I now see why the other loggers came in at half price, they knew something was up.
This country consists of nothing but hills and valleys, the only flat ground your gonna have is Tillable crop or pasture, all the farms around here that have flat ground 9 times out of 10 are putting that ground to use via pasture or crop..
Besides the fact its way to rocky,way to steep and wet, its way to THICK... You would do FAR, FAR more damage around these parts with a forwarder than you would by doing a Sloppy job with with cable skidders...
Most of the ground around here has to be done by Cat's ( dozer) because a cable skidder itself is 50% useless....
I'v cut a couple tracts that a forwarder would have been nice, but even on those they would only have been used for 40% of the job...
Our forests are alot different than those I see guys logging up north....
Most of what is being logged is relatively flat land , even the logger said so . The hillsides have big Red Oak on them .
Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 10, 2014, 08:57:34 AM
Here we go.... whiteflag_smiley
Whats works in the lake states doesnt work everywhere else. We get ALOT of money to go roll forwarders back over. Ive got one, works great if you can bunch to it but 75% of my jobs it will never happen. You wont have to many "bump trees" on the trail with a decent sized forwarder because you have to cut them to fit thru the trail. :D CTL isnt cost effective around here, and the guys who do it mostly chase softwood. Im planning on a harvester/ 6 wheeler when I have more money to burn but its not the 100% solution.I will post some pictures of "forwarder friendly" terrain when I get home, you would need a big box of depends to wanna cut this with just a forwarder, and a big wad of cash for me when you flop it. 8)
i don't think they make depends big enough to hold the wad that would be in them coming down some of the hills we have here im with you on this BM i just got done with an 80a plot and crossed the hill 5 times to get to the top
There will always be some damage to keep trees. I log small time and skid with a 45hp tractor. Now most of you have forgot more about falling than I will ever know but i have tried to learn as much as I can from the forum, BC training videos etc.
What I run into most that makes trees go awry is: 1) trees that have hollow/rotten spots in the middle that you may or may not be able to tell. 2) trees that lean one way, then may straighten up and then lean another way.
Just saying that sometimes a tree is going to go the way it wants. Period. The fact that the fallers don't chose to wear PPE sort of makes you wonder about their level of professionalism.
With that all said and done I log on the family farm so I have extra incentive to do as good as job as I can but sometimes things just go awry.
Tom, now that I think of it Batavia is a little more of level country, but the further south you go and along the river it gets rough. I've been on river front tracts for over a year now...
O
I by no means am defending the logger, don't know them well enough to speak as far as they're rep, but have heard of them a few times...
It all comes down to weather they are doing a good enough job for YOU...I always try my best to leave a tract in the best shape I can, but it always looks like hell and always will... its logging...but use YOUR judgement as to figure out what to do next....
As far as a forwarder, I don't know a single logger around here that has one and I couldn't possibly use one enough in this country to justify the price tag....
Quote from: RunningRoot on November 10, 2014, 06:23:52 PM
As far as a forwarder, I don't know a single logger around here that has one and I couldn't possibly use one enough in this country to justify the price tag....
Bingo! While a forwarder would be AWESOME, especially for prehauling to a good haul road, of all the jobs I have cut I could have used one on 0% of 'em. If the ground typically worked by a given outfit does not lend itself to a forwarder (I don't know of even one anywhere remotely close to here, and only 2 tracked feller bunchers) than it would stand to reason that there would not be one in the company's arsenal. Can't buy a high dollar piece of iron like that and only use it .05% of the time. This country always has and always will be cable and hand felling country.
I really would like to see pics of the job (just curious) as I am sure we all are. And I truly hope all this can be remedied for you. Obviously one cannot undo what has already been done. How much of the job has been completed?
Tom
you learn something everyday fowarders just dont work. ok answer this how many company's build skidders for sale in the us. deere cat and tiger cat any more? do any of them still make a cable skidder? now fowarders for sale in the us deere cat tigercat valmet rottne ponnse eco log timber pro. and if you dont thing they work on steep ground watch the youtube vids
Never said they didn't work.......I am sure they work great......just not here. Yarders work great, grapple skidders work great, shovel logging works great...........DEPENDING on the area you are in. If they worked in the Appalachian Mountains or in the mountains of the PNW don't you think you would see at least a few of em?? You don't see Alaskans in bermuda shirts and bikinis very often........
Tom
Post Script;
Just because you can take a machine places they don't belong doesn't make it a good idea! I have seen (and put) rubber tire skidders in places that they never should have been (and probably will again) At that point you are just tempting fate. I have seen the videos, and I assure you that kinda "steep" ain't our kinda steep. Hell, my neighbor put duals on his hay roller. Duals on farm tractors for bush hogging around here are a MUST.
Tom
''This country always has and always will be cable and hand felling country'', couldn't be no closer to the truth...
Quote from: snowstorm on November 10, 2014, 07:21:30 PM
you learn something everyday fowarders just dont work. ok answer this how many company's build skidders for sale in the us. deere cat and tiger cat any more? do any of them still make a cable skidder? now fowarders for sale in the us deere cat tigercat valmet rottne ponnse eco log timber pro. and if you dont thing they work on steep ground watch the youtube vids
Last time I checked, cable skidders were still available. Companies are in business to make money, the cable machine fits a small niche. If I was manufacturing forestry equipment and sold 10,000 grapple skidders in a year and only 1,500 cable skidders I might discontinue them as well. That being said, that does not mean there are not applications for said machines.
Tom
Quote from: bill m on November 08, 2014, 07:38:56 AM
Quote from: cutter88 on November 06, 2014, 07:12:46 PM
My biggest petpeve when cutting private, land owners who want the property logged but no collateral damage ! And no it makes no sence to cut the trees in half to skid them out!!!
If your trying your best not to damage leave trees cutting them in half makes all the sense in the world. A lot of the times the foresters in my area will put into the contract no skidding stems longer then 34 feet.
Sounds more like landscaping then logging to me but whatever
I run a cable skid opperation but honestly I do think forwarders do a much nicer job and were we are most spots could be used but I boils down to $$$$ for us we have 2 older skidders and a dozer to skid and there's just not the money for fowarders and harvesters that need a dealer mechanic to fix some finicky stupid thing every few weeks :p
Quote from: snowstorm on November 10, 2014, 07:21:30 PM
you learn something everyday fowarders just dont work. ok answer this how many company's build skidders for sale in the us. deere cat and tiger cat any more? do any of them still make a cable skidder? now fowarders for sale in the us deere cat tigercat valmet rottne ponnse eco log timber pro. and if you dont thing they work on steep ground watch the youtube vids
First, the big companies have slowed down on the cable skidder because the market is flooded with old ones that still work, how many folks on here run cable skidders from the 60's and 70's? Its just silly for Cat and Deere to offer a machine for 200k that we can pick up all day long for20k,
Second while valmet, rottne, ponnse and eco are big names in forestry their primary markets are in Europe, where forwarding is more or less expected. Largely because they only deal with short logs. But since these companies also want to sell us on their processors they may as well bring the full catalog with em. As it stands I've only seen one forwarder working in this area, and that was in pictures, and on a thinning job.
Yes I've seen the vids of forwarders going down steep hills and picking up logs, try that out here and the foresters will shut you down before you roll down the hill anyway so its a bit of moot point, not to mention a yarder is by far more productive. 2-3 minutes to a turn each turn being nearly 1/2 a log load... and the ground is hardly touched. Or better yet try going up that hill with a loaded forwarder...
Any way this is getting kinda silly. I'm done until I see pictures of said damage.
My Harvesting professor in college always used to say "There's good logging and bad logging. There ain't no pretty logging.".
Amen.
Winches are still an option on the deeres.
Okay, Enough said. very curious about some pic's to see this damage. Thanks.
David l
I find this banter interesting. It is cool to hear folks opinions. Whom ever calls loggers dummies is an idiot and this forum proves it.
There is a local fellow who uses a Valmet forwarder in his one man operation and his only complaint is the lack of winch. It can be pretty hard to position the machine to reach the trees after he drops them. Some of his jobs are rutted up more than a cable machine because he lacks the ability to limb and top in the wet spots. He does a lot of in and out pulling the trees to the machine and bucking.
I had thought about a forwarder on the big lot we are working, using the 240 to bunch the wood to a mini landing and forwarding them to the main header. $$ being tight we went with the Barko 160 and have several headers on the job. Fortunately there was an old road through the lot and we can bring the trucks to the center of the property. The longest skid we have is about 1/2 mile. The last job was almost a mile from the back of the lot, half of it uphill.
Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on November 11, 2014, 06:46:22 AM
I find this banter interesting. It is cool to hear folks opinions. Whom ever calls loggers dummies is an idiot and this forum proves it.
X2 - And you learn an awful lot about equipment you don't have and its use.
IMO on good ground where the wood is right a wheeled processor and forwarder will leave less impact to the ground and the canopy. That's with the operators being equal too. That said I have seen some beautiful work by cable and forwarders and crap from both. The issue with the processor and forwarder is the cost for the small operator on any ground.
Equipment is pretty much erelavent, a logger can either keep a tract pristine or destroy it using any of the equipment mentioned.
It all comes down to patiance.. I bet I could log 200 acres and not scuff one tree and never break path, but it would take a completly unreasonable amount of time
time. Tree damage from felling is enevitable.. a good feller takes the time to keep it to a minumum tho..
With a long boomed processor in a crowded stand u are felling and pulling the tree out away and out of the tops. Swooping describes it best. But yes u will still have damage.
Been reading this thread with great interest. OP did state that loggers bid was about twice the next lower bid so would expect the job to be done very quickly to turn a profit . With high production come more residual damage in most cases .
Anyway I as many have stated am waiting on pics before making any judgement calls.
Quote from: RayMO on November 11, 2014, 09:40:06 AM
Anyway I as many have stated am waiting on pics before making any judgement calls.
Something doesnt sound right. We all got that. Might be the logger / forester might be a fussy landowner. We all claim how we leave such a "great job" and how much more glamorous a forwarder works. Good luck. I see what the state allows on some of these big cuts with full mechanical and i wanna gag. I have to produce X amount to pay for X amount of fuel and overhead, you do a decent job and go. Ive got a hack job coming up that will starve a woodpecker who is flying over, wont even post the pictures because the "puritans" on here would wanna crucify me. :D
Yep barge monkey you got it..... How could you justify a forwarder in select cut. One stick here another 50 yards over there then one down over the bank then one another hundred yards????In appalatchen hard wood country they are not practical.thats just my opinion
Puritans on here?
Well, If he's not posting pic's I am. These small cable machines can be just the ticket on some cuttings. Great for getting around and leaving some residual pockets undisturbed while harvesting a few chosen trees out of them.. Can't be afraid to pull the cable though.
David l
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29166/NCM_0314.JPG)
OH NO you ran over that little tree :o that's under the blade a forwarder would have missed it :D :D :D :D :D :D
Thats cordwood young man!!!!! I cut it then I am going to run over it.
i'm on a clear cut right now.........it looks like hell and it supossed to. every thing was over mature but the holly bushes. it will be replanted by hand.
if i can remember the camera, i'll show it to y'all.
Quote from: David-L on November 11, 2014, 05:00:29 PM
Thats cordwood young man!!!!! I cut it then I am going to run over it.
the little little one under the blade it has a few leafs on it ;D the one you cut is cord wood too small for a log cant really tell by the pics is that a r oak that you cut
Yes red Oak and if it has at least and 8 " tip it can be a pallet or sawlog. And yes I save them out. Now i see the seedling your talking about.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 11, 2014, 05:21:23 PM
i'm on a clear cut right now.........it looks like hell and it supossed to. every thing was over mature but the holly bushes. it will be replanted by hand.
if i can remember the camera, i'll show it to y'all.
I tend to work 1 mt away from the ski slopes, the woods have been high graded and the best thing sometimes is to work around the good small stuff and mow it down. Our local state region is favoring 200 acre plus sales now, im getting queasy looking at bid packages.
DEP is marking a few 1mmbft sales down shokan way right now, the forester they had loved ash so he walked away from it for 20+ yrs. They are getting 8-1200mbft average per tree on this sale.
Mid next week i will get some nice pictures, up high enough we can see VT / Ma and the Adirondack's on this job. There was a hotel on the knob to the right of me in the 20's, they claim with good glass you could see 7 states and the ocean.
Bulldozer ground, not forwarder ground. :D
Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on November 08, 2014, 01:59:41 PM
Sometimes it is just easier to fell them were they are pointing. Than cut them in half to get them from out behind a good tree u want to keep. Ninja skidding.
Yeah, but that's a decision YOU made, for a good reason. You didn't let the tree make it for you.
I finally got a photo album on here. More to come . Look under Averwater timber harvest . I haven't figured the picture thing out yet . They plowed thru a nice stand of young Maple and Cherry yesterday going from corner to corner . There was a road on both sides of it 125' apart .
Tom
You have several pics in your gallery.
To put them in your post, just click on the line below the window that says "Click here to add Photos to post" and then click the tab in that new window that says "My Gallery". Once there, you click the pic you want to post, and it will enlarge. Then you SCROLL down (something many miss) to where it shows a tab that says "Insert Images in Post" and click on that. Answer "yes" and that pic will be in your post.
Then you can add the verbiage to explain what the pic is about. Finally, click on Preview to assure that what you want is what you will get when you click on "post".
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6190
in this case its probably better t0 view them in the gallery as there is a lot of them.
I've seen a lot of Northern hardwood timber harvests. Tom, in my opinion, you have every right to be hot. That is a mess. It is clear to me this was a very unprofessional crew. You just dont see guys working without even a hard hat. Even an idiot wears a hardhat working in the woods.
I want to reiterate something. You guys are posting from all kinds of different geographical, timber type and species, and market areas. What works one place ain't going to work an other.
I've been following this from afar - I know nothing about harvesting. I did get a postcard in the mail from a logging company wanting to see what they could do for me ::)
Tom,
You can go back in your gallery and make notes on your pictures instead of trying to put them all in a post. I thought I saw in someone's gallery when you hover over the pictures, it brings up the comment field. You can even reorder the pictures in a way that makes sense to you (like following a trail, etc.) They sure have a lot of equipment there!
ok, here is what i think after seeing the pics........they cut it harder than i would, to small on diameter for a selection. the faller who made that awful over kerf don't know what he's doin. they need to clean out the creek bed. the scraped trees.........some should be removed, poplar don't do well at all if scraped.
i will say this, at this point those almost pure stands of poplar should be harvested to what ever is marketable. the few left will likely windthrow now that its so thin. as i said they cut it a bit to hard. the good news is that yellow poplar will normaly regenerate its self well if light can get to the ground. disturbing the ground will help it to do so.
Heres how i see it. :D
You sold your wood to the highest bidder, thru a forester without investigating anything, took the biggest dollar amount and ran.
The guy has 3 skidders and a newer loader. They put wood out, thats why you got the big money.
Theres a few trees smashed up that should have been saved, but again you have a logger with 30.5 tires, making very healthy drags. Take it up with the forester. It would come out of his bond.
Theres some tops and slash that could be run over or knocked down, whats in your creek could be pulled out in 30 mins and cleaned up.
Do you see how much paint is there ? Just in those pictures i see alot of market wood, even with a fellerbuncher your still going to smash stuff. Im sorry if you think your getting hosed, i think maybe they are a bit sloppy, lacking ppe but ive seen 100x worse. Ive seen it really rutted up and the landowner didnt get a dime. You market a large timber sale and expect 0 damage, what did you think was going to happen when they unloaded a 460D with 30.5's ?
Most bids allow 5% or less damage, barking up. The leaves are off the trees and no vegetation so it does look rough. Unfortunately you took the money and now your stuck. I dont see enough gross negligence there that anyone from the state would get involved, again thats why you have a forester.
Yeah I don't think that's that awfull of a job I mean they could clean up a little more of the marketable stuff and slash some stuff down that's not sellable maybe cut the scrubbed trees when they are done and definatly clean up the creek bed. But a logger that pays twice as much has too have high production too turn a profit and sometimes with high production it's not as clean
A well written harvest contract should be able to fix most of the issues on your job. Looks like not a lot of harvest oversight by the forester. Cutting slash to the ground, damaging residual stand, dropping trees in a waterway should be in the contract. The biggest issue I see is the damage crop trees, penalties would stack up quick on this job. Directional falling and a little pride in work and this could look like a decent harvest. Your forester has some areas marked for heavy cut so it is not going to look perfect, but if I was administering this sale I would not allow what you are getting. Big iron should not result in big mess, it just looks like the fallers and skidder operators are not very good at what they are doing. If the appropriate language is in the contracts as it should be, your forester should issue a cure notice with response required. Give them the opportunity to fix the issues and put them on notice regarding what the residual stand damage is going to cost. Being lump sum payment can make it a bit difficult to kick them off the job, they have paid for the timber and rights to remove it. Your forester should have good contract language to deal with the issues at hand. BTW PPE should also be in the harvest contract.... I would shut them down in a heartbeat for not using any, say what you want but PPE is the first step in preventing serious injury and death in harvest operations and no landowner or forester wants to walk onto their job/woodlot and remember a death that could have been prevented.
this is why I don't pay lump sum if the lo or my self is not happy I go on no strings attached a lot of times this is what happens when you have big timber they are tall and what ever is in there way goes with them if it was me I would not have cut it so hard the first time I would be on that foresters @@@ its just as much his fault as yours for letting him mark so heavy the trees in the water way should never been left there that's the LOGGERS fault poor work in my book is the logger willing to clean up a little more sorry your having such a bad logging experience there are better loggers and foresters out there jm 3 cents hope every thing goes well for you
I only took a second to look...i'm headed to the woods. The thing that sticks out to me is the skint timber. Some of which is marked to be cut but it looks like they carried their grapple too high and weren't paying attention. Looks like it was marked pretty heavy and the initial shock of seeing a hard cut has to be rough. I will look a little closer when I get home today...but the skint save trees is pretty sloppy.
Looks like logging to me.I give it a 7 on a scale of 1-10. Pretty decent looking considering it is a production job. I cant understand letting a feller work with no helmet- looks like a big company.
way to many skinned trees, if they plan on removing them fine, but they better not leave them.
Also that tree that was hung up, did they just leave it or where they planning on getting it down immediately, and the kerf cut felling cut is just plain sloppy. If that's how their cutter is working per usual its no wonder he doesn't have a hard hat on, nothing to protect.
As far as brush and what not, its logging, there's bound to be a lot of limbs and waste left over, how it should be dealt with should be in the contract, lop and leave, piled, chipped, slashed and burned etc. If its not in the contract could be a large reason why they bid so high, they noticed that their was no cleanup?
It's pretty sloppy, but better than I would expect if I looked at the picture of the faller first ::)
Well, that was enlightening. I was expecting to see a lot of crushed trees and major damage.
Are the trees with the flagging tape marked as damaged or for harvest?
No matter how careful you are, trees are going to hit things when they fall and some damage to the stand is inevitable. The road I saw that was unused looks too small to get through with the equipment they are using and may have resulted in more damage.
I am a landowner and I log my own woods, and I can tell you there is always unavoidable damage. You just do the best you can to drop the trees into the openings as you go. Tops catch, trees hang, things break. That's just how it is.
I don't know if I missed something, but the only thing I saw that looked like a watercourse was a dry draw. Brush in a draw will catch soil and slow erosion of the whole surrounding area. To me that is a benefit and not a problem.
If they clean up the skinned trees, take a longer view of this. In 5 years the smaller branches will have rotted away, in 10 the regrowth will have filled in and once again your forest will be beautiful. If you want it to look like a park, don't log the whole thing at once and you will always have some pristine areas to look at while the harvested parts recover.
One big nasty storm will cause more damage than these loggers have done and you wouldn't get a paycheck from that. I think this whole situation is fixable. ;D
Looks like some fine timber was harvested here.
Don't go to the slaughter house if you want to enjoy that steak without mixed feelings. :-\
My take is that all those skinned trees are leave trees. If so, there is a major problem. You shouldn't be trying to back up to each tree in a hardwood stand with a grapple skidder. Snake then out with a cable skidder. Those trees are messed up because of inappropriate use of equipment for starters.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/031.JPG)
I'd blame the Forester more than the logger. THe Forester is the agent for the Landowner. The landowner is neither a forester or a logger. If he was he would have done it himself with the results he was expecting. In this case he was failed by the professionals doing his harvest. Thats the problem here. Look at the title of the topic. I'm sure that the landowner in this case understands that a logging operation is no walk in the park, but of all that damage to the remaining trees is a result of poor planning and poor execution. When I worked in the woods, it was before the CTL days we now have here in Michigan. It was all cable and grapple skidder. If we were to do that to a woods when we were working, we would have been fired. You plan on the residual damage. You plan on pivot trees and skid trails. You don;t just pick a point that you think you can barrel up through leaving a wake of skinned trees. That's what it looks like is happening to me. A logger shouldn't be sitting here defending the good stuff they see just because they are loggers, they should be striving to see and learn from the negative and trying to make sure you take from that as the professionals you are,
First I will say there is absolutely no terrain in that entire sale that I would have the slightest concern working with my forwarder. In fact it is flatter than most sales I cut. So that sale could easily have been worked with a forwarder with far less damage than I see in the pictures.
Next thing I see is the existing trails are too narrow for travel with any large equipment and especially for skid trails. So the damage to trees along the skid trails is to be expected, especially with whole tree skidding. So leaving those trees while the sale is being worked is a benefit to adjacent trees and no doubt the skinned trees will be removed later.
The damage to the flagged trees in the woods is inexcusable but not uncommon for a whole tree skidding job with poor felling technique. It is caused by a need for speed in completing the job.
As for dropping trees across the waterway, I did not see anything other that the small dry wash and what little brush is in that dry wash could be easily removed at the end of the job. Plus I see no disturbance of the soil near the dry wash that could lead to erosion in the future. So that's a non issue.
So without getting into the felling and PPE debate, I see that job as a better than average work in progress, especially for whole tree skidding. I've seen a whole lot worse jobs. I'd bet the job will look a whole lot better once the cleanup is done at the end although those flagged trees are in line for damage payments. It could have looked better if forwarders were used, but the whole tree skidding is most likely faster.
i agree Jeff, there are way to many skins...........these guys are sloppy and in to big a hurry.
i have to go back to those poplar stands........i cut alot of poplar.........i wouldn't have cut half of those on a select cut because of windthrow and the fact that some are to small to grade well. as Jeff said the forester is at fault once again.......it dosn't seem like he planned for your wood's future at all.
i will blame the logger as well......i work without a forester most of the time other than the county guys. i wouldn't have done it that way.
Quote from: thenorthman on November 13, 2014, 08:22:31 AM
way to many skinned trees, if they plan on removing them fine, but they better not leave them.
Also that tree that was hung up, did they just leave it or where they planning on getting it down immediately, and the kerf cut felling cut is just plain sloppy. If that's how their cutter is working per usual its no wonder he doesn't have a hard hat on, nothing to protect.
As far as brush and what not, its logging, there's bound to be a lot of limbs and waste left over, how it should be dealt with should be in the contract, lop and leave, piled, chipped, slashed and burned etc. If its not in the contract could be a large reason why they bid so high, they noticed that their was no cleanup?
Now that's funny. Good one.
Jeff- I agree that on the picture you picked and if those are save trees, that is pretty bad. I just wonder if that is typical for the job or the worst spot, not making excuses for that.
We always get some skins every time we pull out logs, and we don't do tree length. That was really my point. I get upset everytime we skin one, as that often leads to the tree either being defective or eventually hollow. I just noticed that a lot of the photos just look like normal logging residue.
I would also agree with you that there seems to be a lot of defensive talk here from the logging community.
I would also say I have seen a lot worse, with pole sized cherry, oak and walnut crushed by thoughtless and or incompetent felling, barber chaired walnuts and so on. I had to fix a job like that on my place. Took 5 seasons just to get it cleaned up (not park like, just cutting down the ruined and crushed trees so new stuff could come in). It is now like 30 years after the bad logging job and things are doing fine.
The downside on the trees in the photo is they may be ruined for future harvests, and at the least will be worth less $.
To be honest I kept waiting for the horrible pic to show up and it never did. The job could have been done better but it doesn't look that bad to me. There are definately some issues. Unfortunately it sounds like there may have been some miscomunication between the LO and the Forester in that you may not have described the type of cut and clean up you wanted. Or was it the forestor ingored them in your plan? Keep in mind if u wanted a certain type of minmal, low impact harvest you may have recieved fewer bids and they all would have been quite a bit lower.
This may be the result of the LO knowing zip about all the diffrent harvesting techniques but it may be the forestor never explained any of the options to the LO?
I also agree with Jeff that this was a misuse of equipment if the plan called for those skinned trees to stay and more good wood to be left behind than now will be. Three big JD Grapples does not equate to snaking through a stand and leaving a lot of good trees behind. U plan your route and bump trees ahead of time but those skidders are big wide machines.
Anyway. Bummer. Thing is don't give up on managing any property you own going forward. You have learned a lot of valuable information about managing your forests. Unfortunately it had to happen in this way.
Just an IMO...
Well thanks for the pics. All I can say is if I left skun trees like that I would be out of work. Good directional felling and a small forwarder and cable skidder would have worked on this one. This is where short wood could have come into play IMO.
David l
I wouldn't be happy if it was my woods.
I would prolly drag the skidder OP out of the cab and replace him. He would cost the company so much in damages in a FS job that the company would bankrupt. There was one pic I saw where two or three save trees had been skint while right behind them were marked timber still standing...yet the skidder OP "just had" to go through there! Different planning and thought process would have gone a long way on that job.
For such a heavy cut, I don't think they are doing a terrible job, with the exception of the excessive skinned trees. Anytime you fall big hardwood, it is gonna look like a bomb went off. The faller is (it appears to me) to be hinge cutting (bore cutting) which is what the Master Logger programs preach as an be all end all falling technique .............
The LO would die if he saw all the jobs around here.........
Tom
Tom, after looking at the photos I feel for you. I had my 70 acre oak woodland thinned in '09. I had marked it myself and a crew of three hand cutters logged it. Each tree was felled, limbed and bucked before a forwarder picked up the products. The cutters took pulpwood down to 4 inches out of the tops and hand piled the pieces. The sale yielded 3 loads of saw logs, 1 log of bolts and 32 loads of pulp. I found only one tree that had been damaged. So yes it is possible to have a perfect logging job. I now know that the prices I received on that job were only half what I would have gotten if the job had been done with a processor. So you get what you pay for or in your case get paid for what you got.
Quote from: Jeff on November 13, 2014, 11:33:19 AM
My take is that all those skinned trees are leave trees. If so, there is a major problem. You shouldn't be trying to back up to each tree in a hardwood stand with a grapple skidder. Snake then out with a cable skidder. Those trees are messed up because of inappropriate use of equipment for starters.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/031.JPG)
I'd blame the Forester more than the logger. THe Forester is the agent for the Landowner. The landowner is neither a forester or a logger. If he was he would have done it himself with the results he was expecting. In this case he was failed by the professionals doing his harvest. Thats the problem here. Look at the title of the topic. I'm sure that the landowner in this case understands that a logging operation is no walk in the park, but of all that damage to the remaining trees is a result of poor planning and poor execution. When I worked in the woods, it was before the CTL days we now have here in Michigan. It was all cable and grapple skidder. If we were to do that to a woods when we were working, we would have been fired. You plan on the residual damage. You plan on pivot trees and skid trails. You don;t just pick a point that you think you can barrel up through leaving a wake of skinned trees. That's what it looks like is happening to me. A logger shouldn't be sitting here defending the good stuff they see just because they are loggers, they should be striving to see and learn from the negative and trying to make sure you take from that as the professionals you are,
thanks for the support , Jeff . The trees with yellow flagging are the severly rubbed trees . The 2 Maples in the picture were skinned up with their cable machine . They just back up to the trees and hook up . Their was another place where they did the same thing and ruined 6 maples . My brother showed that to both the logger and the forester . The logger just said something like , you're going to have that happen . Behind those 2 maples in the picture the road will be 75' wide if I take out all of the ruined trees .
first off the forester marked it way to heavy second I would bet that this forester is clueless or has never worked with guys that are proffesional or take pride in there work You can tell that the cutters are not using proper felling technekes no hardhats ect. so that explains the attitude of their boss which explains why he shows up with three huge frikin skidders on a select cut Me I would not even have let them unload but one out of the three of em Also in the pic. you can see how they just dumped the timber just one on top of another when you select cut the cutter should cut a skid then when the skidder moves em out you cut several more n so on n keep cuttin your slash ect. as you move along I feel for ya I guess one thing is that it will eventually grow back until then happy deer hunting :)
Tom, I can see why you are not happy with what is happening in your woods. I really hate it when I hear loggers say things like "well, that's logging" , "logging's not supposed to be pretty" , "it's logging not landscaping". What happened to trying to do the best job possible. Strive for no collateral damage. I know that is not possible but try. Take pride in your work so when you are done and walk away you can look back and be proud of the job you did. Some loggers seem to have the attitude that they can do whatever it takes to get the wood out with complete disregard for the future forest because "that's logging" and "the forest will recover just give it time". That stand of 4 inch maple that was destroyed just set that part of the forest back about 15 years. Is that really acceptable? Lets treat the forest for what it is - not ours and have respect for it and the landowner.
What I have been complaining about is the lack of respect for the remaining trees left in the woods . Sometimes I can hear 6 trees come down one after another . How car a tree be "steered " at all when another tree is pushing it down ? They have been using 2 cable skidders in the woods , bringing logs to a 2 acre field and then grapple out from there . I knew the old trails were going to have to be widened, but when they were shown to them by the forester and then not use them , that's b.s.. A 40' road is a lot is a lot wider than the 12' that I was told they would be . I've cut some timber , as I have a band mill , we used to have a small circle mill .
My brother asked the forester how much one of the trucks of poplar was worth when it it got to Mccarthur , Ohio , he said he didn't know . Wow . How much does a semi tractor and log trailer weigh , aprox. , 30,000 ? 25 ton of logs ?
how much is a load worth is kind of a moot point now since you did a contract for money up front.
this will be wildly unpopular but this is what happens around here with these up front money deals. thats why i don't like them and thats why i always tell folks to deal with county foresters and loggers with a good reputation. big checks are like rose colored glasses, you will never really know what the timber was worth.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 13, 2014, 09:30:13 PM
how much is a load worth is kind of a moot point
I absolutely agree with that. Its irrelevant.
About a week late, but I would have kicked the logger off when I first saw the extra damage and let him sue to get the $ back.
Pay on percentage, never fear.
Maybe just maybe give em a little down to sweeten the pot after closing the deal, and before moving in...
Any way, I wouldn't be able to sleep if I left standing trees looking like that...
They changed the timber theft laws in NY state because of a logger around here. He would "happen" to cross the line and clip the 3 neighbors, cut the very best and run. I bet there are 100 landowners with judgements against them, and they wont ever get a nickle. They locked him up in county jail, but his medical costs where more than the county wanted so they let him go.
Historically we bid and buy lots on the same $$ amount per mbft and lately the bidded lots have been paying better than outright sales. As the landowner on a "bidded" lot, you get whats exactly in the contract, when there is a diff in stumpage and cords from the sheet and its over, tough luck buddy. A decent private sale paid on percentage is good as long as neither party feels they are being screwed. Everyone hears about these "$10k" loads of logs but dont realize what it takes to get that. I pass a mess on my way to work everyday, right on the peoples front lawn, they saw $$$ signs and didnt get a penny. He was smart, knew to cut and ship the best first, by the time they threw him out he had cleaned house. They put a game camera in the RV to see how many loads where going out, he got that too. And this is why good loggers will always have work.
Certainly seems like a lot of skinned up trees. Here in southern illinois, I cut mostly large oak and hickory, and other misc hardwoods. I only to log part time, and I make every effort not to skin up leave trees. If trees are skinned up, it is usually a scrub elm, dogwood, or other species that is not economiclly important and should be cut out in a tsi situation. As others have pointed out, the skidder and feller should work together and plan ahead to minimize residual stand damage. Generally I top the tree and the top stays were it falls unless in a creek or by a property line/field/fence. I don't currently mess with pulpwood, I did a few years ago and can not say it was profitable for me. Lots of amish and others around here will clean up for their own firewood.
I do have one question, are the skinned up trees good quality leave trees, or suppressed? It appears to be pretty thick timber in spots and I am guessing that would mean suppressed trees that would be merchantable only as pulp? The stems certainly look good in the pictures though. I know my Dad and I cut a lot of trees under 6" that are suppressed and otherwise deformed in TSI on our woodlot (most landowners I work for don't or won't spend the money to do that though) If we cut out the merchantable timber right now on some areas, their wouldn't be anything left, but for our oak/hickory forest, you have to manage the light, invasives, and shade tolerant species in order to properly regenerate the stand. We clearcut one area of all maple to get the oak and hickory to regenerate. Also done controlled burns as well, which really help out the oaks. We don't have much maple here, and it's not a prime wildlife tree, generally, if we see one it is cut because it will shade out the oaks. It is really quite interesting on some of the studies they have done on how much room a fairly mature hardwood tree can use. My limited understanding is that if you have canopy closure, then the trees are competing for nuteriants and their growth rate is slowing do to the competition. Maybe one of the foresters could enlighten us, but a good hardwood tree I think could use 30 X 30 spacing or something larger... as they approach maturity, and the trees in the picture are much closer than that,
As stated by others the timber is marked heavy, my guess is because of the concern about drought and disease first mentioned in the opening post. Sounds like the forester misunderstood, or did not educate the LO on what a heavy marking would look like.
Just food for thought, but skinned up leave trees are not acceptable.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 13, 2014, 09:19:49 PM
Sometimes I can hear 6 trees come down one after another . How car a tree be "steered " at all when another tree is pushing it down ? They have been using 2 cable skidders in the woods , bringing logs to a 2 acre field and then grapple out from there .
My brother asked the forester how much one of the trucks of poplar was worth when it it got to Mccarthur , Ohio , he said he didn't know . Wow . How much does a semi tractor and log trailer weigh , aprox. , 30,000 ? 25 ton of logs ?
All of that is irrelevant.
As far as the trails not being used, that's on the forester, not the logger. If the forester did not put "use existing trails in the contract," the logger has a right to take the shortest path.
As I said before, it's not a good job nor a terribly bad job. I've never been a big fan of grapple and cable skidders but they both have their place. In the hands of a good operator, those skidders can do a fair job, but in the hands of a poor and uncaring operator, you can get a mess. It's up to the forester to see that you do not get the latter type of job.
As a landowner as soon as you take the big check, you have to live with your choices. You can get in big trouble if you start directing the logging operations. So it's your forester that needs to hear your complaints.
I thought that the forester job was to communicate between the loggers and the land owner, how bids work, explain long term goals, permitting, and over see that the job is done right and safely. I have had a mill forester and state forester checking on us. Some times it's frustrating and don't always agree but assures us that we are doing a good job and what they want. Not that when no one is around stuff happens( had an old barb wire fence the famer wanted not wrecked and marked trees leaning towards it and no feller bunched. Dropped on fence then fixed and no one ever new). The job we just finished was a crop release to promote sugar maple. We had to be real carful of saplings. On thing is for shure, if you want to be in the paper, rob a bank or do a bad job by the road.
Forgot to mention that sometimes kindness can help. Maybe a pizza party at lunch could get every body compromising and agreeing.
We just have not been able to deal with this logger . He damaged our neighbors 3 board horse fence with one of his semis pulling into the drive . His comment , I'll fix it when we're done . Not your everyday $500. Nag in that pasture , more like $ 20,000. . It's time to start charging him . maybe trade him that huge poplar log for damage .
Yes, the value of a load of logs is irrelevant at this point . I guess i was just to point out that I got ahold of a fuddy duddy for a forester .
Maybe when this is over I will be able to sleep at night .
hope every thing works out for you and please don't think all loggers are like that :)
No matter what your view on how good or poor of a job harvesting is, the way the land owner issues (perceived or genuine) are being addressed is very, very, poor business. I would agree with some of the guys here that some of the photos were not that bad, but there are others that I find pretty disgusting, its very possible that the photos don't do the actual issues justice, and not being able to see the entire scene makes it hard to get everything out of a photo.
Once again it seems the logger has no respect for neighboring properties given the damage to the fence, and that is the real issue here - respect for the landowners. Like others have said, not all loggers are like this yahoo, and I take offense at your forester, he is either clueless or worse. Riding over to your place to discuss issues with the logger was a telling sign that he is either not neutral, or is green as June grass. Its too bad you did a lump sum sale here, this guy makes it hard for all loggers.
Funny thing is just last week I was at the local saw shop getting a couple things and we were discussing a couple big jobs going on in the area. The owner of the shop tells me that "guys who pay by the MBF are all crooked", and the only way to sell is on a bid. He did not realize that I had looked at one of the lots we were discussing and offered the owner to cut it on shares but she had sold it for bid as she wanted cash now, the bid she took turned out to be 80,000 feet shy of what the lot yielded. (I know the scaler who measured every stick and works for the mill that bought the timber).
Sorry to hear you are having these difficulties with this harvest. Hopefully you find a much better logger for the rest of your red oak.
southside, i seen that happen hundreds of times..........the bigger the sale the bigger the screwing. i'v seen as bad as half was paid for.
the forester here was after as much as he could make.
i think the logger may be subbing for a mill and makeing peanuts per load, therefore he is in a hurry for production.
the picture shows an unacceptable amount of damage even for a commerical harvest. looks like just sloppy operators. This is what contracts are for. Logging jobs are as much about people management as timber management. I look at the landowner as carefully as the timber an walk away if it doesnt feel right.
Tom maybe I missed it but I will ask again is the logger a Ohio Master Logger and is the consultant forester a member of the Ohio Forestry Ass ?
Association :D
Quote from: Autocar on November 15, 2014, 02:44:50 PM
Association :D
hey I like the first one better I think it fits him :D :D 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 14, 2014, 07:44:17 PM
We just have not been able to deal with this logger.
Tom,
PLEASE tell us WHO this logger is AND JUST AS IMPORTANT, WHO your forester is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE!!!
I understand you may feel you should not say their identities for some reason: perhaps in fear they will find out and do you a worse job?
PLEASE if you at not going to publicly list these two guys names, could you at least private message ME with their names?
The rest of us around you here NEED to know this info. We just finished similar but smaller scale EAB marking with my picked consulting service forester from Lebanon - just up the road from you. As a certified tree farm, master tree farmers, we figured we knew what we are doing - but obviously there is chance of major problems. We have various good walnut & some 'super vaneer walnuts' in our woods we & a Fairfield vaneer company are watching - if we get a yoyo like you have in here and they damage those! One of these trees is worth more than our whole EAB harvest! There are only a few SW OH service foresters so I am VERY worried we may have the same problems as you! And I sure as heck don't want to pick THAT logger!
PLEASE help us other locals with who these folks are!!!
Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.
Human nature causes us to see the worst when we are not happy with something or someone and just the reverse for the opposite .
I have passed on a few good jobs because I could tell their would be no satisfying the land owners. Had a buddy start a job and the owners wanted them to start with a big nasty water oak at edge of lawn and after he dropped it and pulled top and all away from lawn as a favor to owner the owner had the gall to hand him a rake and insist he clean up his mess. After the discussion was over my friend loaded up and told the owner to cut his own timber .
Then their are loggers that can make a bigger than necessary mess out of any job ;D Leaving trees in creek or across boundaries is a given NO-NO period. And delays in fixing any damage to fences also a huge NO-NO so thinking your logger lacks in some areas for sure.....
Wow, beautiful woods, level, dry and room to work. But I don't like the debarked trees..!! Myself I would have cut more of the smaller stuff and left more of the larger stuff but a pro I'm not.
Quote from: Autocar on November 15, 2014, 02:43:26 PM
Tom maybe I missed it but I will ask again is the logger a Ohio Master Logger and is the consultant forester a member of the Ohio Forestry Ass ?
I got the forester's name off of a list that Tim Wilson ,our state forester gave me , as for the logger being a master logger ,I have no clue . He came with a good recommendation from the forester . Another forester from Lebanon , Ohio was too busy at the time .
Quote from: RayMO on November 16, 2014, 12:35:51 PM
Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.
You make me laugh. I'm pretty sure we can take Tom for his word that it is bad. He"s been a member here well into his second decade. He deserves our respectful help and input.
It is a shame. Tom did what was right and hired a professional forester to help oversee the harvest. It is really disappointing that he got this result.
My gut tells me the logger probably overbid and is taking shortcuts trying not to lose to much on the sale. I have had foresters tell me "so and so had better markets". But I don't believe that to be the case in many instances. I had one vetren buyer tell me he no longer bids the sealed bid sales because most every time someone pays 20 percent to much. I don't bid enough to know if this is true but it's what he said.
it's bad business to leave an unhappy landowner. Sorry Tom and I wish you luck on getting some kind of closure or compensated for the damages.
Those leave trees that have 50% of the bark rubbed off 5' high is unacceptable in a high quality hardwood thin. That and the picture of the "timber faller" hel0s me make an educated guess about what kind of operation this is.
Tom
Is your contract with the forester, or with the logger directly?
What are the responsibilities of the forester in this operation?
And a couple times you have mentioned your brother talked to them. Is your brother holding the contract, or both of you?
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on November 16, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: Autocar on November 15, 2014, 02:43:26 PM
Tom maybe I missed it but I will ask again is the logger a Ohio Master Logger and is the consultant forester a member of the Ohio Forestry Ass ?
I got the forester's name off of a list that Tim Wilson ,our state forester gave me , as for the logger being a master logger ,I have no clue . He came with a good recommendation from the forester . Another forester from Lebanon , Ohio was too busy at the time .
Tom, I again understand you do not want to tell who these characters are.
BUT think of US - the OTHERS around here that are in the SAME boat.
WHY in the name of heaven are you protecting the logger and forester?????
PLEASE help the rest of us NOT get into the same boat as you! PLEASE give us the benefit of your experience here!
PLEASE! PLEASE! GIVE US THE FORESTER AND LOGGERS NAMES!
I am sure Tom will give you the information in a personal message. It would be foolhardy to be posting the guys name and business and stuff publicly.word can get around without having to do that.
Quote from: Jeff on November 16, 2014, 03:21:28 PM
Quote from: RayMO on November 16, 2014, 12:35:51 PM
Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.
You make me laugh. I'm pretty sure we can take Tom for his word that it is bad. He"s been a member here well into his second decade. He deserves our respectful help and input.
Thanks Jeff , I appreciate your support
. They worked Saturday and Sunday as we are supposed to be getting bad weather tomorrow . Our driveway is a 1/4 mile long and then they have to drive thru a yard. If it gets wet I'll just wait for them to bury a semi in the field as they are running on top of the beat down fescue grass. They gotta go about 200 yds. And then make a U-turn to come back out .
I speak of my brother as this is our family farm where we ,( 3 brothers) ,grew up . He works there fixing small engines for a living . I am the trustee of our dad's trust that we now own . The contract is with me .He is just as interested in this as I am . Our young kids love to play in the woods , we are old parents .
And Yorlik , You have mail !
Very poor quality work done by the logger and by the forester by allowing them to do it. In a high quality hardwood stand like yours those trees should of been topped and pulled out separately. To see so many skinned up trees in an area shows they put in very little effort to prevent damage. They cost you a lot of future revenue with their poor work quality and the damage they caused which is a shame. The trees around the fences should of been cabled over to prevent the damages and would of also saved the loggers time instead of cleaning the mess up later. You're in a tough stop now with both the forester and logger not listening to your concerns. I think you took the right steps by setting up your harvest it's too bad the people hired aren't capable of doing their job.
If you decide to do future harvesting you should make a list of things you want done to help prevent damages. Topping trees before skidding...etc Also if you go with a forester or logger ask to view some of their previous jobs. If they do good work they will be happy to show you.
I was reading this post from beginning and thought I stay out of it, but now at page 10 I have to support member Cuddle Bug Firewood. I think he's absolutely right, the logger probably found out that the quality isn't there or neither the board feet so he puts pressure on his guys and probably tells them he's gonna lose money on this job, that forces them to do all the short cuts. If I got this right hes bit was twice the money from the second best bid. Don't know if it was intentional and that's the way he's doing business or it was just a underestimation. It's sad but it happens all the time with margins are getting slimmer and equipment is getting bigger. Gotta go go go.
Quote from: lopet on November 16, 2014, 07:56:41 PM
I was reading this post from beginning and thought I stay out of it, but now at page 10 I have to support member Cuddle Bug Firewood. I think he's absolutely right, the logger probably found out that the quality isn't there or neither the board feet so he puts pressure on his guys and probably tells them he's gonna lose money on this job, that forces them to do all the short cuts. If I got this right hes bit was twice the money from the second best bid. Don't know if it was intentional and that's the way he's doing business or it was just a underestimation. It's sad but it happens all the time with margins are getting slimmer and equipment is getting bigger. Gotta go go go.
could be he took the forester's numbers and didn't look at it himself..........his mistake.
i keep going back to the forester here......to heavy a cut to be considered a selection........to small of timber. i think they both just want all they can get on this harvest and the land owner is out of luck.
yes look at past jobs. every one around here knows my work and others i have cut for. surely it is this way other places. the high number big outfit is seldom the best management option.
I would have to agree with the assessment that the forester is the real problem here.
I'd be talking to the Local Conservation District or Ohio DNR and quite possibly an attorney.
the pictures do show some neglect to the residual stand. but the job doesnt look that bad for the amount of wood marked unless some of the paint is for leave trees. i noticed about three colors of paint. i take pride in my work ,but the job i just finished, was 20 acres with about 90 to 100 thousand feet of logs not counting pulp. i did my best but when a tree falls it makes a mess, no matter how much clean up you do.in spots it looks like a bomb went off, i will go back in if needed, but the lo seems happy. i think you job doesnt look that bad, but its your land and if you arent happy, the logger and forester should make you happy. good luck.
If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.
Quote from: Nemologger on November 17, 2014, 09:56:24 PM
If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.
+1
Quote from: Nemologger on November 17, 2014, 09:56:24 PM
If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.
+1 too but....
Although I totally agree with your and others comments that in this case it is the forester's problem to not have intervened and stopped the continuing damage, the consulting service forester CAN and should be invaluable to a timber sale - for someone not in the industry, like us land owners.
As in any other field, there are bad apples. I have no doubt you do a fantastic job, and of course, if I somehow KNEW that, I WOULD save 10% by not paying that to the forester.
Unfortunately, like the forester, there are bad loggers also; this post is case in point. Not being in the industry, we sellers cannot know who is good and who is not, so we rely on a potential neutral third party called a consulting service forester to help steer us away from the bad ones, and, depending on how much we want their continued involvement, make sure the process is done properly. Their input most often IS well worth their fee.
In our case, as certified master tree farmers, we have taken a lot of training classes that other sellers may not have taken, and we KNOW our service forester from years of off and on contact, have recommendations from other tree farmers of his past work and ethics, and so believe his assessment of the logger we will be picking for our EAB harvest coming up. We believe his invaluable help to us was marking the trees along with us and helping pick just the right logger for our particular situation. Then, in our case, we do not require him to come watch or oversee the actual work, although I suspect he will show up a few times anyway.
So even though YOU know you are the best and would not screw a customer like this fellow logger did to Tom, WE don't know that. So our only recourse is to utilize a supposed neutral expert in that field - a forester.
Always check the credentials of your forester and selected logger. Be sure they are certified professionals and experienced in their job. The forester should check his logger's work at least weekly, and daily it there are concerns with the logger he selected for the job. If need be, the forester should remove a problem logger from the job.
Loggers do change the landscape, so landscaping is part of the logging plan and the forester needs to make the landowner aware of the "planned interim impacts" to the landscape with the logging.
ron this my be stupid but how do you remove a logger that has paid his money up front will most likely have to try and shut the job down and take him to court and how do you shut the job down there have been people here that has paid up front and smashed every thing in sight went to court and the lo could not do any thing because he took a lump sum lots of lo wont take money up front because of that they do a % so if its not to there likings they tell you to hit the road thanks coxy
Up front payment of contracts can be cancelled by paying back a percent of completion of the project. The forester should be able to calculate the percentage.
Quote from: yorlik on November 18, 2014, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: Nemologger on November 17, 2014, 09:56:24 PM
If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.
+1 too but....
Although I totally agree with your and others comments that in this case it is the forester's problem to not have intervened and stopped the continuing damage, the consulting service forester CAN and should be invaluable to a timber sale - for someone not in the industry, like us land owners.
As in any other field, there are bad apples. I have no doubt you do a fantastic job, and of course, if I somehow KNEW that, I WOULD save 10% by not paying that to the forester.
Unfortunately, like the forester, there are bad loggers also; this post is case in point. Not being in the industry, we sellers cannot know who is good and who is not, so we rely on a potential neutral third party called a consulting service forester to help steer us away from the bad ones, and, depending on how much we want their continued involvement, make sure the process is done properly. Their input most often IS well worth their fee.
In our case, as certified master tree farmers, we have taken a lot of training classes that other sellers may not have taken, and we KNOW our service forester from years of off and on contact, have recommendations from other tree farmers of his past work and ethics, and so believe his assessment of the logger we will be picking for our EAB harvest coming up. We believe his invaluable help to us was marking the trees along with us and helping pick just the right logger for our particular situation. Then, in our case, we do not require him to come watch or oversee the actual work, although I suspect he will show up a few times anyway.
So even though YOU know you are the best and would not screw a customer like this fellow logger did to Tom, WE don't know that. So our only recourse is to utilize a supposed neutral expert in that field - a forester.
talking is free. if you can't find any one local that has herd of a guy, than he is a newbie. any logger thats been around a while has a rep......good or bad.
Quote from: Roxie on November 18, 2014, 12:32:15 PM
Up front payment of contracts can be cancelled by paying back a percent of completion of the project. The forester should be able to calculate the percentage.
It completely depends on what the contract says about cancellation. Unfortunately nobody reads contracts until there's trouble and then it's too late to change it.
If the contract says something like "either party may cancel at any time," then the only battle will be over final settlement and even then it could go to court. If there's no cancellation clause, any cancellation for other than violation of any specific part of the contract will be costly.
If the contract does not specify damages for specific acts or even workmanship, it's going to be extremely difficult if not impossible for the landowner to get reimbursed for damages.
I was cutting a job and had about a 3rd of it cut/skidded, on a Monday morning the land owner comes and asked me to stop logging. I was contracted to cut this job for a mill, there forester marked the trees to be cut and paid up front. LO thought to many trees were being cut and wanted the job stopped, long story short the LO paid back twice the value of un-harvested timber and paid the forester to go back and re-tally. The mill had all the right to finish the job but felt it was not worth the bad reputation.
This is malpractice on the forester's part.
greed
Yes, it depends what the contract says and if it has a strong cancellation clause in favor of the landowner for violation of sustainable forestry and best management practices and state laws by the logger. Also what Roxy said as to portion of contract payment that may be refunded for not following the terms of the contract, and yes such situations may end up in court, especially if a mediation clause is not a part of the contract. The job may be stopped while mediation takes place, but this is also costly to all parties.
The forester working for the landowner is responsible for protecting the landowner with a timber harvest contract insuring sustainable forestry and ecosystem protection on the landowners property. I agree, the forester may be at fault with malpractice and ethics violations. Its hard to say without having all the facts and viewing the situation. A review by his peers may be necessary to pass judgement.
If the situation is really bad and the contract terms are being totally ignored and violated so bad, I know of cases where the job has been shut down by the County Sheriff, State police, or Federal Agent and the criminal route pursued with all resource damages accessed similar to a timber trespass case.
Always have a good contract with the terms understood by all party's involved and be aware of excessively high bidders and give them the opportunity to really review the contract terms with the opportunity to rescind their high bid if need be. High bidding and then "cutting corners" in the operation to make a profit beyond that of what a prudent operator would do is a recipe for a problem operation.
be aware of high bidders........i think thats important. from here south it seems like the only thing that matters is how much every one will make. i think thats a shame.
if ya don't love the woods, get out of it.
This is why I always cut on percentages and tell the land owner up front that any time they have an issue we will either work it out or I will move on with no hard feelings as they are the boss.
That's a good way to do business RayMo. I also give a landowner a list of ALL my past jobs with the contact info so they can check out my past. I don't do anything without a contract. I have made a lot of friends in this business. loggers that do good work are never out of work.
Do you have an approximate dollar figure for the damaged leave trees? Since the logger's bid was double the next closest one, does the extra $$$ offset the damages? The trees shouldn't have been damaged in the first place. The rest of the job looks better than I had expected though. My thought is would the extra money now invested at say 6% make more by the next harvest than the trees would've that were damaged?
A long list of local references does wonders when talking to a new customer/land owner . I also do my best to keep the owner payed in full each week so they know where they stand dollar wise. That way no surprises at end of job .
I could often make a lot more profit buying cash up front but feel it is more fair to both parties when using percentages as it gives both parties some control over sale before it reaches the disaster point posted about by OP .
Quote from: RayMO on November 19, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
A long list of local references does wonders when talking to a new customer/land owner . I also do my best to keep the owner payed in full each week so they know where they stand dollar wise. That way no surprises at end of job .
I could often make a lot more profit buying cash up front but feel it is more fair to both parties when using percentages as it gives both parties some control over sale before it reaches the disaster point posted about by OP .
PREZACTLY!
I have received some criticism on her and another board for buying on the percentage. I truly feel it works better for all parties involved, LO is paid at the end of each week (usually, depends on weather) and if at any time we reach a point where we cannot get along then it is a matter of loading up and parting ways. Each party has their money in pocket up to that point. Nothing owed or to argue over.
Tom
Quote from: KyLogger on November 19, 2014, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: RayMO on November 19, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
A long list of local references does wonders when talking to a new customer/land owner . I also do my best to keep the owner payed in full each week so they know where they stand dollar wise. That way no surprises at end of job .
I could often make a lot more profit buying cash up front but feel it is more fair to both parties when using percentages as it gives both parties some control over sale before it reaches the disaster point posted about by OP .
PREZACTLY!
I have received some criticism on her and another board for buying on the percentage. I truly feel it works better for all parties involved, LO is paid at the end of each week (usually, depends on weather) and if at any time we reach a point where we cannot get along then it is a matter of loading up and parting ways. Each party has their money in pocket up to that point. Nothing owed or to argue over.
Tom
there is alot of us doing it that way.........i have done this 25 years without a problem.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 19, 2014, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: RayMO on November 19, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
A long list of local references does wonders when talking to a new customer/land owner . I also do my best to keep the owner payed in full each week so they know where they stand dollar wise. That way no surprises at end of job .
I could often make a lot more profit buying cash up front but feel it is more fair to both parties when using percentages as it gives both parties some control over sale before it reaches the disaster point posted about by OP .
PREZACTLY!
I have received some criticism on her and another board for buying on the percentage. I truly feel it works better for all parties involved, LO is paid at the end of each week (usually, depends on weather) and if at any time we reach a point where we cannot get along then it is a matter of loading up and parting ways. Each party has their money in pocket up to that point. Nothing owed or to argue over.
Tom
Not sure why folks would be critical of %? It is common practice. Just ignore it.
What it really boils own to is doing your homework and and establishing a relationship with someone that is knowledgeable and trustworthy. Sales can work well for both parties either on a competitive bid or percentage basis. I personally believe the competitive bid process with a thorough contract to be a better practice, especially if there are multiple landowners involved (it reduces the opportunities for shady business). But there again you need to have a knowledgeable trustworthy forester administering the sale or you may end up with a situation like this. I say that with no ill intent toward you honest trustworthy guys that do business on a percentage basis because it can work well also.
I didnt get a chance to look at the pics, but the first indicator for me would have been the loggers working without safety equipment. If they don't put emphasis on their own health, then they surely are not to concerned about the impact they are having on your forest ecosystem. The PPE and BMP issues should have been standard verbage in the contract. It sounds as though its no different there than here in PA, a state forester can give you a list of consultants but cannot recommend any. On that list there are really good consultants and really bad ones, sounds as though you may have landed the latter. In many instances, getting involved in forest landowner groups can aid in finding good reputable foresters and loggers.
Some LO's around here are willing to work with a percentage deal and there are those that prefer a lump sum sale. For the LO the lump sum lets him know exactly what he is getting for $ and the forester gets paid upfront also. There have been many % deals where the LO feels cheated, especially the absentee owners as they need to trust the logger, which many do not. With the lump sum they need to trust the forester which seems easier for them but those deals go bad also. There was a forester in this area where every sale was bought by a particular mill and they always paid much more than anyone else, but there was always an overrun of up to 100%. The LO's using this forester had no clue how much timber they were actually selling, they trusted the forester. One LO questioned the volume removed and found the huge overrun and after speaking with other LO's in his organization they hired another forester to do some forensic work and found large overruns on other lots as well. That forester no longer works for their organization.
The lot we are cutting now is on a % basis but the timber is being marked by a forester on an hourly basis. The forester is required by the conservation easement on the land.
As I see it, both the landowner and the logger need to trust someone. Getting to know the foresters in the area is key for the logger as well as for the LO, Certain sales have gone out and the volume just wasn't there so the logger loses, the LO and the forester win. The logger needs to retrace the foresters work and try to figure volumes for himself before bidding. Fortunately my son is quite good at it, I'm not bad either but my grandson is a forester in training so that should help our organization.
I have a bid sheet on my desk from a forester I have never worked with and is 2 years out of school. I had the advantage of walking the lot with her before it was marked and got a feel for what she considered logs vs what I considered a marketable log. The volume on the sheets are close to my estimates but I need to walk the lot again and see what was actually marked before I would submit a bid. It is basically a TSI harvest where a lot of work is required to get the marked wood without damaging the residual stand. I have invited her to spend a day on our job to see an actual logging operation and gain some insight into the mechanics of a harvest. A forester that has some experience in the workings of the job can do a better job of marking timber once they see what is involved in getting a tree out. The forester on our current job will actually mark wood that would be damaged in the harvesting operation.
I completely agree with jwilly3879 and PotterBuck they both give excellent advice to landowners looking to market their timber.
Al
Yup. As said it comes down to the honesty and integrity of the folks providing the services. Whether it is bid or %.
Some good discussion and good points made.
Yes there has been flak on here about percentage logging. And yes I agree it's a fair way to do business. The ability to buck properly and market logs properly were some of reasoning for not agreeing with percentage.
I have said it before and will say it again, "Your money is made on the landing" Proper bucking and grading on the landing will make or break you!
Tom
Just looking at a bid sheet and not thoroughly inspecting the site can cost a lot of money. If you are bidding on 50mbf of timber and it is all junk it is one price, if it is nice wood a different price. I don't care how well you can buck wood you can't turn junk into veneer. You can however turn veneer into junk. Site conditions dictate amount of labor needed to do the harvest and should be a big factor in the bid price. There is always a gamble that the wood in a lump sum sale is the quality matching your bid. A % job can minimize this risk.
There is an interesting thread on this subject called "so a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract" check it out
Quote from: KyLogger on November 20, 2014, 06:04:13 PM
I have said it before and will say it again, "Your money is made on the landing" Proper bucking and grading on the landing will make or break you!
Tom
Same deal X2 when you mill those logs. :-\
Up here, I'd guess 90% of stumpage is sold (regardless of it being private or public ground) on bids, by the cord. The USFS would be the exception as they have went to lump sum, sold as appraised sales. How our sales usually work, the forester cruises the wood and comes up with volume estimates by species present. The forester assigns an appraised value to the timber, then at auction, the wood is bid up at % above appraised. When you win a sale, you have to put 10% down to hold, and pay in full before starting operations. All loads are ticketed and tracked, and you pay for the wood you actually haul to the mill. That way, if the forester over estimated the amount, you will get money refunded, if he under estimated, you will pay the appraised price per cord for anything over. I guess what I described is the way state and county sales are run, but we do basically the same for private wood. This system is pretty fair to everyone.
I'll add, the foresters up here have complete latitude to shut us down anytime we are operating in a way not in accordance with the sale contract. I'm sure Tom should be able to find a way to shut these guys down until his concerns are addressed. I can't see how taking the lump sum payment means he has to stand and watch his property be raped.
depends on the contract as they may not be doing anything illegel..........
sorry guys, i'v had to many bad episodes with private foresters.......thats here, i have no doubt other places are different. i will stick with the county foresters and paying 50/50.
seen to many times where the per thousand price in a contract looked huge but the volume was way way off even though it is usually a clear cut around here......i can make most landowners more money on a selection.
I have been reading this thread daily since it started. I myself have sold timber three times in my live so far, when I was involved in other jobs and didn't have the time to do it my self. Once I took bids and the other two times I sold on % basis. I was very satisfied on the tract I sold by the bid process.. I sold pine saw logs. The logger that did the work did a very nice job. On one of the % jobs the loggers did a very nice job and I feel I was paid fairly. On the other % job, I fired them after the second week and they shafted me for several thousand dollars worth of saw logs. I went to see my lawyer and was told he had already filed bankruptcy . That was the last sale, an I vowed as long as I lived no one but me would cut my timber again. Any of you that are thinking of selling timber, check out their references and look at their past jobs, and talk to the land owners that have dealt with the logger before... a ticked off land owner will surely tell you his story....with a vengeance. Banjo
I think a lot of people are missing the point here, it doesn't matter what equipment you are running, skidders came before forwarders, horses before them, it all comes down to pride in doing your job, anybody can do it one way or another but pride in your job may take a little longer but the rewards of a better end product and property managment at the tell at the end.
Off the topic at this point, but it is interesting to see how sales work differently in different areas. Around here it is pretty much all operator select on the harvest, I don't think foresters know what paint is. Foresters will do an initial survey, generate a bid package for the landowner, post the sale, review the bids with the LO, and "check on" the progress once a week. Sadly very few jobs are select cut any longer, some guys do a good job on the clear cuts and others look like Tunguska. Those that replant are all pine. I have a neighbor up the road who had a field in CRP for 30 years, it came out last year and he planted it right to pine under contract to harvest it when mature, I don't understand that one but that is the deal.
Well the Forester came out Thursday to look at things . I told him I was still observing them pulling untopped trees out a ways before topping them because of the mess they were piled in due to domino felling with the skidder. All I got was a "well, uh " . I showed him a spot where they had backed up behind a big poplar to push it over with the skidder and had run over about 20 -2"-3" poplars and cherrys . He gives me no answer . I actually got a positive answer from him when I showed him a 17" walnut they had dropped a tree on and exploded from across a ravine . I asked him if they would have to pay for that one because the forester had flagged it as a protected tree and he said yes . Wow ! :o
They are shut down now as it has thawed out and it raining . There are some deep ruts on the main trail they didn't grade over before they left ? Full of water now . The drive is a sloppy mess . It is not supposed to freeze here for a week . They had to push the semi out with the skidder several times .
The forester said he was tryring to get the forester from the mill the logs are going to and someone from the forest stewardship council to come out and take a look . Still not a totally neutral observation of it .
I'm thinking they have cut probably 75% of the land and 85% of the trees now .
I'm still confused about what you are paying this forester to do for you. But will just stay tuned.
Please continue to keep us posted on what's happening.
if they cut that much of it I have a feeling they wont be back to finish the rest
Can't fault them for pushing out the log truck........it's winter......it's logging........as long as they clean up their mess.
Quote from: beenthere on November 23, 2014, 08:46:50 PM
I'm still confused about what you are paying this forester to do for you. But will just stay tuned.
I've been wondering that too .
Got a text from the forester today saying the "logging standards guy'" will be out next Monday . I don't know who this is . Sounds like a good thing . I called the state service forester and invited him , I hope he can make it , as he knows what the woods looked like before .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/042~0.JPG)
Before cutting picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/019.JPG)
After cutting picture . There was no need to drive thru this section as there was a road just to my right ,one going to my left and another trail 100' over to the left .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/058.JPG)
What it looks like from another angle. They just mashed all of the remaining undergrowth into the ground . There was a lot of young Cherry and Maple here .
i still think it was marked way to heavy...........that one stump looks to have a hole in it, is there a lot of that?
i only see a few trees i would cut in that first pic.
That still looks pretty compared to what im seeing on the state cuts around here. Maybe you didnt see it coming, but when a guy shows up with 3 skidders and a loader you tend get the idea they arent going to waste anytime. Theres still no excuse for sloppy work, which is why the forester should have done something from the beginning.
Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 25, 2014, 12:10:16 AM
That still looks pretty compared to what im seeing on the state cuts around here. Maybe you didnt see it coming, but when a guy shows up with 3 skidders and a loader you tend get the idea they arent going to waste anytime. Theres still no excuse for sloppy work, which is why the forester should have done something from the beginning.
I agree with BargeMonkey. Don't look that bad. Everything around here is either uphill or downhill. You should see some of the messes left.
One job that the landowner actually ran the logger off was sort of steep. Logger was using a harvester (think that is what they are cutter on a trackhoe looking thing). You rarely see anything around here except a chainsaw in someone's hands.
Anyway, to access the timber they cut in roads from the side of the hill. Road banks were so high that now you cannot walk from the bottom to the top without crawling on your hands and knees up the embankments.
Having to cut roads like that (sidehill) is pretty common around here even when felling by hand. On this steep Appalachian ground you ain't got much of a choice.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 25, 2014, 05:15:41 AM
Having to cut roads like that (sidehill) is pretty common around here even when felling by hand. On this steep Appalachian ground you ain't got much of a choice.
Pretty much know about the Appalachian ground. Lived here come Saturday 54 years.
If I did that kind of work on a MiDNR sale I wouldn't be on the sale anymore and would be on the No Bid List.
Did the logging standards and state forester come out? What was their suggestions? Do they recommend any sort of seedbed prep or just let it grow back?
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,79319.msg1204374.html#msg1204374
This is what a hardwood thin should look like, whether mechanical or hand cut.
Quote from: barbender on November 25, 2014, 08:42:00 PM
This is what a hardwood thin should look like, whether mechanical or hand cut.
Wow... that's quite a difference in work. Thanks for the comparison.
The pics of the hardwood job (UP CTL) show a really nice job on a in a young forest with timber not showing any top mass. As we know...top mass is what damages save timber. No big tops equal cleaner cut and limited residual damage.
Beautiful job though...and it should set the standard for thinning that size timber.
Quote from: CuddleBugFirewood on November 25, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
Did the logging standards and state forester come out? What was their suggestions? Do they recommend any sort of seedbed prep or just let it grow back?
[/quote
The logging standards person is supposed to come out next Monday . I left a message with the state forester . I'm hoping he can schedule it in .
I'm not familiar with what/where a "logging standards" titled person fits into the scheme of things.
Is it connected some way with a mill only buying logs from a forest under a certain management plan?
Such that the mill is protecting its buying/selling of certified wood?
I hate to keep stringing this 13 page botched job thread along...but I can't help myself! LOL!
One thing that no one has really talked about in 13 pages is what it is like going in behind a botched cut and trying to fix it. Well...it fricken sucks!
I get bounced from tract to tract cutting where I get told to go. Late Summer I got in on a FS block that had a deadline coming due on the contract. The crew who owned the contract was banned from ever cutting FS jobs again due to they got a kid killed this year. Dang this is gonna be a long story... popcorn_smiley
Ok, so while the FS job was opening up, I started a private land tract for our truck driver. I went in and thinned a couple sections of pine and cut a few loads of oak before I was moved to the FS block. For some stupid reason, the crew that got banned from the FS job I was now in control of, took a Hydro Ax and started behind me on the Private sector....fricken go figure!! I was like, "You're a Millionaire...could you have not just waited a month or so till I got back"???
So immediately I started hearing complaints from the LO...too much was being cut...too small...residual damage...cutting across the line...busting timber...on and on...everyday I was hearing the complaints. The LO would ask, "When you gonna come back and cut...these guys are ruining my place!" I was like Hell you know I have to finish this FS block before the end of September...why the heck did ya let those tweakers in on your land anyway???
So I got moved back over there finally and have been trying to fix their crap job. I was a in a pine thicket that was gutted in the center instead of thinned. What was left needed thinned due to the tweakers hadn't looked up I guess and left touching tops and forked timber still standing. So I called the LO and told him I was removing all forked top pine, damaged pine, damaged oak, unthinned young oak and some big mature oak that was supposed to be thinned.
I fixed the place pretty good and should wrap this job up in a couple days. The thing that makes me made was this kid knew how to thin pine and oak...never should he have taken so much timber in this cut. My boss always has said that if you thin pine properly...you can actually harvest a 1/3 more timber and still leave it looking right. This is very very true! Bottom line...cuz I'm tired of typing...Do a good job and you will stay in work! LOL!
Dangit...I didn't make my point...omg
Point is...I had to go back in a set that was over cut and cut more timber in order to do the thinning properly like it was supposed to have been in the beginning. :) there now...I'm done! Happy Thanksgiving! :)
You KILL me! LOL I am cutting in block right now that is all oak. 2/3 young White Oak (under 16") and the rest are BIG neat-o Black and White Oaks, tall with HUGE tops......Supposed to cut everything 14" DBH and up...........makes things interesting................very...............interesting. Population is crazy as well.
ok, some of you cut alot of 14" dbh stuff........what is your min top? i like to stay around 8"..........so it seems to me y'all cut some small timber........i don't try to grade any thing less than a 16" log. what y'all do with all the toothpicks?
We cut down to a 3 inch top.
Our normal mixed timber saw logs are 10" min
Premium Red Oak is 12''
Black gum and Sweet gum is 11"
Scrag hardwood is 6 to 7''
Pine sawlog tree length is 7"
Pine pole tree length is 2 1/2''
Quote from: KyLogger on November 26, 2014, 06:16:08 PM
You KILL me! LOL I am cutting in block right now that is all oak. 2/3 young White Oak (under 16") and the rest are BIG neat-o Black and White Oaks, tall with HUGE tops......Supposed to cut everything 14" DBH and up...........makes things interesting................very...............interesting. Population is crazy as well.
One of the biggest lawsuits in my area was over a cut like you descrbe. The LO agreed on 15" stump on a mature and ripe stand of mixed oak. WOW what a mistake that was! There were tires shot out, gates ran through, brandishing of firearms, hoses cut....what a mess! I got drug into court over that one but only due to I was on the contract...but for ERC :)...so I was clear.
This type of cutting on a payed in full lump fashion is a disaster in the works! You cut by contract guidlines and is it your fault that 85% of the timber got cut? Nope...but the LO is gonna have a fricken heart attack everytime! LOL! ...and rightly so...error and misunderstanding and lack of judgement on percentage of what size timber to be cut is to blame.
Quote from: CCC4 on November 26, 2014, 11:50:48 PM
Our normal mixed timber saw logs are 10" min
Premium Red Oak is 12''
Black gum and Sweet gum is 11"
Scrag hardwood is 6 to 7''
Pine sawlog tree length is 7"
Pine pole tree length is 2 1/2''
so a 14" tree with an 10" top............unless it has no taper it will be short.
you call pole wood what i call pulp right? i won't cut it now.......its almost free........i can't work for free.
oh, happy thanksgivin brother.
Quote from: CCC4 on November 26, 2014, 11:58:44 PM
Quote from: KyLogger on November 26, 2014, 06:16:08 PM
You KILL me! LOL I am cutting in block right now that is all oak. 2/3 young White Oak (under 16") and the rest are BIG neat-o Black and White Oaks, tall with HUGE tops......Supposed to cut everything 14" DBH and up...........makes things interesting................very...............interesting. Population is crazy as well.
One of the biggest lawsuits in my area was over a cut like you descrbe. The LO agreed on 15" stump on a mature and ripe stand of mixed oak. WOW what a mistake that was! There were tires shot out, gates ran through, brandishing of firearms, hoses cut....what a mess! I got drug into court over that one but only due to I was on the contract...but for ERC :)...so I was clear.
This type of cutting on a payed in full lump fashion is a disaster in the works! You cut by contract guidlines and is it your fault that 85% of the timber got cut? Nope...but the LO is gonna have a fricken heart attack everytime! LOL! ...and rightly so...error and misunderstanding and lack of judgement on percentage of what size timber to be cut is to blame.
this last couple lines you typed.....exactly right.....well said
We log on the percentage, the landowner said cut anything that will make a saw log..... Makes good "foldin' money" he said...... I take saw logs down to 10" min.... I try to keep it a little bigger than that. The rest gets left in the woods. Those little old swell butted White Oaks that meet the minimum but only have one log in the butt, I am leaving. Contract says we can take em' but it just feels so wrong......
Quote from: KyLogger on November 27, 2014, 04:22:25 AM
Those little old swell butted White Oaks that meet the minimum but only have one log in the butt, I am leaving. Contract says we can take em' but it just feels so wrong......
Just a question here...Are those trees not at least partially stunted anyway? Just asking...Banjo
Most definitely, but it does not pay to take em' outta the woods. Logging in our area is not done for holistic purposes, money is the motivator for the landowner. There are definitely some cull trees that should be cut, but this is a dollars and cents business. Plus the more trees I leave the better the job looks when you are done anyhow. LO's take notice that "It doesn't look that bad" when I get done. I know this sounds crass but that's the way it goes around here. If left up to me I would not cut much less than a 20" dbh tree anyway. The only market we have available to us is for sawlogs, and after about 12" at the tip you ain't makin' no dinero on sawlogs.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 27, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
Most definitely, but it does not pay to take em' outta the woods. Logging in our area is not done for holistic purposes, money is the motivator for the landowner. There are definitely some cull trees that should be cut, but this is a dollars and cents business. Plus the more trees I leave the better the job looks when you are done anyhow. LO's take notice that "It doesn't look that bad" when I get done. I know this sounds crass but that's the way it goes around here. If left up to me I would not cut much less than a 20" dbh tree anyway. The only market we have available to us is for sawlogs, and after about 12" at the tip you ain't makin' no dinero on sawlogs.
We worked in west viginia one spring logging, took a little while to get used to leaving stuff in the woods!
Quote from: KyLogger on November 27, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
Most definitely, but it does not pay to take em' outta the woods. Logging in our area is not done for holistic purposes, money is the motivator for the landowner. There are definitely some cull trees that should be cut, but this is a dollars and cents business. Plus the more trees I leave the better the job looks when you are done anyhow. LO's take notice that "It doesn't look that bad" when I get done. I know this sounds crass but that's the way it goes around here. If left up to me I would not cut much less than a 20" dbh tree anyway. The only market we have available to us is for sawlogs, and after about 12" at the tip you ain't makin' no dinero on sawlogs.
you got a grade or veneer market i hope
Oh yeah....we do. As well as stave logs. I was merely referring to the fact that there is no market for chips, pulp, poles etc.... and barely..............barely........a pine market (sometimes)
Nothing to do with Tom's situation, but tree length skidding does not have to tear the land up or the residual trees. Just takes someone trained and experienced to do the job in the proper manner. On this site we were on 85 acres of hardwood with removal of aspen and fir and thin hardwood. There was road wood and I measured 5 acres spread hither and yon on small patches that was complete removal (aspen-fir). This is marked, trails and trees. Obvious trees in a trail all go. It was all cable skid tree length. We made two entries in consecutive winters (Feb-March).
Before, obviousy thick sugar maple.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Dineen1.jpg)
A couple years later in smaller wood.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Selection-003.jpg)
And the lines weren't trashed either, by dropping trees over the line or cutting the line down that some like to do, allbeit illegal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Dineen2.jpg)
That's the painted line and a trail beside. And yes those maple there are thinned as much as they were going to be, so we didn't high grade the big wood. There wasn't big hardwood to begin with. A 14" incher would be a real big one. But stem count was high.
I wasn't the cutter or the skidder man, I was the guy in charge. ;)
Quote from: KyLogger on November 27, 2014, 06:19:24 PM
Oh yeah....we do. As well as stave logs. I was merely referring to the fact that there is no market for chips, pulp, poles etc.... and barely..............barely........a pine market (sometimes)
pulp is to low for me here........big pine [8on a load] is ok but not what it was..........small pine.....let um grow.
Hemlock pulp doesnt pay to bad, wouldnt wanna do it to survive but it helps pay the fuel. Pine pulp after i pay the trucking would break the bank, even if i was getting it for free. We take the hardwood right down to 2-3". If i can get a 12' stick of firewood its getting a choker, every stick i can get out of top goes out, we will do alot of 12" stove wood and it works great for that.
SwampDonkey, that's a job well done! A much as our friend has a tale of carnage to show, it can't be forgotten that there are many, many good operators out there, and what you showed is a great example.
We just moved back home to Ontario after a two year project in Amherst. Wish I'd had a chance to see your work before we came back.
We do have a hardwood pulp yard or two that one of the sawmills opened up. Buys it, then resells and trucks to Mead Westvaco up in Chillicothe. But it only pays $23 a ton. Numbers don't add up for hauling on a single axle. I think most guys that do take the paperwood are giving the LO about $3/ton.
CND $55/metric tonne ($50 short tons) or US dollars $43/ton delivered. The mill is 25 miles from here.
Chester in Lincoln, Maine pays about US $49/ton. Land owners around here getting about $10-12/ton.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 27, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
Most definitely, but it does not pay to take em' outta the woods. Logging in our area is not done for holistic purposes, money is the motivator for the landowner. There are definitely some cull trees that should be cut, but this is a dollars and cents business. Plus the more trees I leave the better the job looks when you are done anyhow. LO's take notice that "It doesn't look that bad" when I get done. I know this sounds crass but that's the way it goes around here. If left up to me I would not cut much less than a 20" dbh tree anyway. The only market we have available to us is for sawlogs, and after about 12" at the tip you ain't makin' no dinero on sawlogs.
This sounds like a recipe for high grading and laying waste to a woodlot that will not recover in less than a century. As a landowner this is one of the most significant reasons I use a consulting forester. It is a dollars and sense business for the landowner as well as the logger/mill. A carefully marked harvest, with the next couple of harvests in mind, adds more dollars to everybody's pocket over time. The real challenge is to increase the thinking time-line for everyone in the equation. One of the things I am fond of pointing out when I am addressing a group on the issue of forest health and sustainability is that woods people in the know think in decades and centuries, whereas the bulk of the population think in hours, days or maybe at the outside, a year or two down the road.
Well put OneWithWood. I have a couple of areas in my woods that Dad let his nephews cut when I was just a kid... they high graded it. Now it has some real nice black jack on it. :D Fortunatly its not too big of an area, and I have some pretty nice hard wood... The hundred year mistake is right on. Banjo
The recipe for a good harvest and management in my view is simple. Its not what you take, it is what you leave. Even if it is a clearcut, it is what you leave. That might be the right conditions for the new forest to emerge. I'll strongly echo what Robert Woodling, Mr. Onewithwood had to say. Not a better landowner for you to take heed to if you make your money from working with landowners.
OWW goes to Washington (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,44041.0.html)
OWW National Tree Farmer Finalist (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,38201.0.html)
This is the simple reason why Tom has been so wronged in this. They have taken with no regard to what they are leaving. The link earlier to the comparison to the Michigan hardwood harvest should be an eye opener to those that say Tom's job is not so bad or "just logging" Maybe where you come from, but not here. It is a shame and one of the reasons I started this website.
Jeff
Very well stated I whole heartily agree.
The tragedy in this whole affair is that Tom hired a Forester to protect his interest and he was rolled either through incompetence or other reasons by this fellow.
Al
I certainly agree with jeff and onewithwood, as that is the kind of forestry my dad and I practice, but to address the point I think KYLogger's is concerned with is the economic feasiblility of removing that tree for the logger and to educate the landowner on why such trees should be removed?
For example:
I try to cut as many marginal trees as possible when on my logging jobs, but their are trees it doesn't make sense for me to cut economically, and I am probably losing money on some. I recently cut some post oak that only gave about 8' - 10' logs...in my mind exactly what KYLogger was talking about. If said log was 18" on small end, it was 123 bd feet doyle (10foot). I would receive $21 to cut skid merchandise and load on the truck. Landowner would get $23 after shipping (using blocking/tie prices as these logs usually don't grade out well). IF the landowner knew that tree was only worth $23 would they cut it? Most I have encountered would not. Am I making money on it, probably not when you figure the time it takes to collect that short log is the same it takes to cut, collect and skid treelength 250 bd foot log. It creates a big mess with all that knarly ugly top left in the woods and you better cut them last or the top fall out of the way so you don't have to mess with it.
IMO most LO could do more for their woodlots, but how does the forestry community go about educating on the importantce of proper forestry managment, and just as important, the economics of forestry, How can I justfy a LO spending 200-300 per acre to treat invasives and do TSI work when they may not live to see the ROI and the kids have no interest in the property, what interest there is would be $ related.
I will say that their are those in my area that feel the veneer markets will be even better for those in the future because of past high-grading. I had a veneer buyer tell me it is harder and harder to fine quality logs, the job I am on now I have only cut a few veneer trees, it was logged in the early 90's. I am cutting a lot of hickory because that is what was left.
I think this is a good thread and brings up many issues that should be addressed pre harvest. Hopefully it also sets some expectiations as to what can be expected to be accomplished during a timber harvest. A thinning is not the same as a final felling operation and each has its place.
I look forward seeing what happens on monday. I hope Tom gets some resolution.
Well put CBF. ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Quote from: KyLogger on November 28, 2014, 04:57:08 AM
We do have a hardwood pulp yard or two that one of the sawmills opened up. Buys it, then resells and trucks to Mead Westvaco up in Chillicothe. But it only pays $23 a ton. Numbers don't add up for hauling on a single axle. I think most guys that do take the paperwood are giving the LO about $3/ton.
I was told we would get $ 2.00 a ton for pulp . We are 1 1/2 hours from the paper mill .
I think what does looks acceptable and what doesn't to folks will vary by regions. In places where more industrial land management and harvesting happen - like Maine for example - those pictures do not look so bad. In areas of lower income - like Maine for example - you will find more folks wanting to get all of the money they can out of one harvest because they need it - and for most of those folks that one lump sum is truly a lot of money and could help them greatly.
But all that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is it sounds like Tom wanted a more limited harvest and didn't get one. It sounds like the Forester created a contract for a very heavy harvest that did not reflect the wishes of the landowner.
Folks need to keep in mind - as long as a harvest is done within the law it is the landowners choice on what type of harvest they want. We may not agree with their choice but it is their choice. Whether it is an educated one or not.
Well put cuddlebugfirewood.
While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.
Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on November 28, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
I think what does looks acceptable and what doesn't to folks will vary by regions. In places where more industrial land management and harvesting happen - like Maine for example - those pictures do not look so bad. In areas of lower income - like Maine for example - you will find more folks wanting to get all of the money they can out of one harvest because they need it - and for most of those folks that one lump sum is truly a lot of money and could help them greatly.
But all that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is it sounds like Tom wanted a more limited harvest and didn't get one. It sounds like the Forester created a contract for a very heavy harvest that did not reflect the wishes of the landowner.
Folks need to keep in mind - as long as a harvest is done within the law it is the landowners choice on what type of harvest they want. We may not agree with their choice but it is their choice. Whether it is an educated one or not.
this^^^^^^ wise words and truth. the landowner did not get what he wanted even though he used a consultant. words to remember.
on the pulp, i can only get 19 a ton for hard wood pulp and 2 would be to much to pay......it ain't worth it to haul it 60 miles.
now, what we have here to pulp [sweet gum, poplar, maple] will grow into tie log and matt log timber. so i don't cut it unless its a clearing. beech is the only thing here i hate and try to kill off.......it is taking over from high grades from years past. well that and holly.
Quote from: ga jones on November 28, 2014, 05:41:04 PM
While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.
that happened here too.......they took good hard wood ground and converted it to pine plantations. now pine is the cheapest thing there is.......tie logs pay much better than huge pine. i will always think the pine mills were behind it......now they are almost all gone. they told landowners the hardwood was junk and should be sheared off or sprayed............i come along years later and they can't believe what i paid them for one load of big oak and poplar.
it is a shame what they did with the pine plantings. its starting to turn around now but look at the resource we could have had.........
Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill) this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 28, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
Quote from: ga jones on November 28, 2014, 05:41:04 PM
While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.
that happened here too.......they took good hard wood ground and converted it to pine plantations. now pine is the cheapest thing there is.......tie logs pay much better than huge pine. i will always think the pine mills were behind it......now they are almost all gone. they told landowners the hardwood was junk and should be sheared off or sprayed............i come along years later and they can't believe what i paid them for one load of big oak and poplar.
it is a shame what they did with the pine plantings. its starting to turn around now but look at the resource we could have had.........
I can't agree with you more, there is a lot of plantation pine in our area, and only three mills that buy pine logs, two of which are pretty small. We just don't learn. As a kid I recall learning how pine in Maine was the only "valuable" tree back in the "old days" and big spruce, really big, was used as a fall break to keep the pines intact, can you imagine doing that today? I am only 42 and personally remember when both tamarack and poplar was considered "junk", now both bring good money.
A lot of the problem boils down to guys trying to make a go of it with too many payments on their plate thinking volume is the solution.
Like the others here I feel for Tom, he did his due diligence here and got shafted by those he paid to protect his interest. The fact the forester rode over with the logger to discuss the issues is still a giant red flag for me and hopefully will show a conflict of interest here and create an avenue of some sort of resolution for Tom.
We live in a generally impoverished area (relatively speaking) Our counties population is around 6,288, our median HOUSEHOLD income is around $26,000 vs. $42,600 for national average...... Peoples outlook on timberlands here is quite different than in other regions of the US. Here if LO's are selling their timber they usually fall into three categories. 1. Inherited the land (possibly absentee) and want to profit before selling. 2. Are either younger or elderly and need the cash, and may not live to see another harvest if they are older. 3. Sell in fear of damage (tornadoes, ice storms etc....) and are scared of losing future revenue. It's kinda like a one time withdraw from the bank. The timber cut here is by most peoples standards, "high graded" ( If I am cutting a boundary I sure ain't gonna leave money in the woods!) The markets here demand high quality hardwood sawlogs. We have no tie mills left, no pulp mills, no chip & saw etc...... You cannot generalize forestry practices, they vary greatly from region to region. I do care about the woods MY WOODS what another landowner chooses to do with their timberlands is their business. I just get contracted to get the wood out...... If I tell a LO "You really ought not cut this boundary this hard, you need to think about the future"......guess what...........they are gonna find another logger. I take pride in my work, do the best job I can at protecting the leave trees etc.... The result is plenty of work, and happy LO's.
End rant..... ;D
Tom
Quote from: pasbuild on November 28, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill) this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.
Amen, The reason I resigned from the MFRA board. MFRA was supposed to be to help educate the public. It took me a couple years to find out that the big boys were like everybody else. Everything revolved around the biggest and quickest money. I and member stamp, who worked for the DNR both resigned, pretty much leaving procurement foresters from places like G.P. L.P. International paper and a view others. I felt I could do more here.
As much as I'm now old enough to know better, and young enough not to care, I have racked up some years in this business.
There's a term I came up with years ago - "race to the bottom". Our industry is totally guilty of it. Do it for less and less and less, and then wonder why there's no money being made. Worse than that, the suits on wall and bay streets are knocking on the mills doors to ask how much they made today, and have no appreciation or value for what's on the horizon tomorrow, let alone two generations from now.
I spend decades growing a tree, invest in machinery, fell it, forward it, process it, dry it and stack it.... and what's it worth? Enough? Not nearly.
The downturn/crash/recession - whatever you wanna call it - did weed out some of the bad actors, but I do fear that when things pick up, everyone's gonna forget the lessons learned and go back to simply applying their misguided logic when it comes to balancing the environmental / economic and social aspects of our sector.
So in the meantime, I choose to do what's right for our woods, and for those I work with in the industry. I just hope that there's a return to value being placed on wood. A social value, an economic value and an environmental value.
Quote from: Jeff on November 28, 2014, 08:59:16 PM
Quote from: pasbuild on November 28, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill) this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.
Amen, The reason I resigned from the MFRA board. MFRA was supposed to be to help educate the public. It took me a couple years to find out that the big boys were like everybody else. Everything revolved around the biggest and quickest money. I and member stamp, who worked for the DNR both resigned, pretty much leaving procurement foresters from places like G.P. L.P. International paper and a view others. I felt I could do more here.
i commend you sir for standing up for whats right. i try, but no one cares what one tiny logger thinks.......exept my land owners who have seen two and a couple seen three harvests in their life time........hopefully they will see one or two more. who knows what happens when we are gone but we must do our part.
i cut big timber because my father and men like him left small trees.........simple as that.
Quote from: KyLogger on November 28, 2014, 08:26:20 PM
We live in a generally impoverished area (relatively speaking) Our counties population is around 6,288, our median HOUSEHOLD income is around $26,000 vs. $42,600 for national average...... Peoples outlook on timberlands here is quite different than in other regions of the US. Here if LO's are selling their timber they usually fall into three categories. 1. Inherited the land (possibly absentee) and want to profit before selling. 2. Are either younger or elderly and need the cash, and may not live to see another harvest if they are older. 3. Sell in fear of damage (tornadoes, ice storms etc....) and are scared of losing future revenue. It's kinda like a one time withdraw from the bank. The timber cut here is by most peoples standards, "high graded" ( If I am cutting a boundary I sure ain't gonna leave money in the woods!) The markets here demand high quality hardwood sawlogs. We have no tie mills left, no pulp mills, no chip & saw etc...... You cannot generalize forestry practices, they vary greatly from region to region. I do care about the woods MY WOODS what another landowner chooses to do with their timberlands is their business. I just get contracted to get the wood out...... If I tell a LO "You really ought not cut this boundary this hard, you need to think about the future"......guess what...........they are gonna find another logger. I take pride in my work, do the best job I can at protecting the leave trees etc.... The result is plenty of work, and happy LO's.
End rant..... ;D
Tom
i hear ya Tom, but i bet your cuts aren't that bad.......the old heads did it right or you wouldn't have any thing to cut.
Boils down to I cut what the LO wants cut as long as it is profitable. I don't log for my health. Comparatively speaking, my cuts look great compared to most........ I tend to err on the side of leaving borderline trees.
i cut big timber because my father and men like him left small trees.........simple as that.
[/quote]
I had a guy call the other day about some standing timber he had. He said he had a few 18" walnuts and some that were about 14". I told him he really should let the smaller ones grow if they weren't needing to come down. He called me back and said he'd decided to let them grow. I always tell people my boys have to have something to cut when they grow up.
We got three boys under 14. Late each summer I take them out and we mark the timber we're going to cut that fall & winter. They know what to leave for their grandkids.
at least there is a few of us then
Well correct me if Im wrong but isnt the forester in a bind here? He made double commission on this loggers bid compared to the next, you think he wants to lose it?
Unless he is working under some other type of pay, he has to be good to the loggers, they are his paycheck.
I remember on one job I had to pull cable and add chain to get some dead woodpecker poles that didnt pay me anything. They were nowhere near any timber I was cutting. It was nothing for the forester to paint an X on them, I had hours of work for no pay pulling them out.
All foresters should have to cut timber for a minimum of 3 years for PIECE RATE as well as studying their books IMO.
Due to age, and the downturn the last few yrs there are less guys around, and here the bad apples stand out. This area has been highgraded so long that finding big stuff can be a challenge.
I have a outlet for pulp, saw logs, FW, even some pine for OWB customers, we dont waste a thing. 2 jobs ago i walked away from some 18" oak, after i cleared away the garbage in 12-15yrs they will be ready when i come back.
The problem i get around here is 2 sided. Until i show the landowner why you cut the garbage heavy they look at you funny, then i get the loggers with a farm tractor running to the landowner telling them how much of a huge mess mechanical logging leaves. Im about to cut a 120acre lot next my father cut in 78-79, all the small oak he left is ready.
So much of it boils down to the area and the landowner, the hot thing around here is to cut it off before they sell the land to the city, and every logger will brag how great he is but when these get cut they get hammered. I just got a nice typed up letter from the forester i deal with on how my last lot exceeded his expectations using a buncher, most guys hack and smash.
I think Tom got screwed, he trusted someone who he thought was acting on his behalf and it wasnt so. Unfortunately he should have seen red flags when their bid was 2x as much, and when they started unloading big skidders.
There was a nice pre-commercial thinning job done in south Chester last year with a feller buncher. They can bunch the small stuff nicely. It was not really pre-commercial because they chipped it all for biomass but in traditional terms it was pre-commercial. For reference.
Sounds like semi-commercial. ;D
They tried mechanized precommercial thinning up here. Our specs call for more tightly spaced trees than the machines can work in without damage. You can cut paths fine, but when it comes to actually thinning there is too mch damage. And we have to cut those whip-like trees that grow in close to the leave tree. Try that with a machine without ripping off the bark. ;)
I've seen saw bades on mini escavators, and too much damage, too open. One fellow with one was a school teacher turned logger. He went broke fast. Plus a guy on his feet stepping around the trees can cover more ground at less cost. $80,000 machine versus $1500. ;) Might sound fun running a blade from inside a cab, but try it for 3 weeks and see how you like it. It's a lot different than cutting logs by machine. It's the borg, them little trees keep coming at you. :D
Yeah I can imagine it must get pretty tedious sitting on your butt all day in a cab. Kind of like a desk job.
The thinning done that I mentioned was after two harvests done probably 8 years apart. This time they thinned most of the hardwood out and left the fir and spruce that had come on since the final cut a few years ago. So yes it worked well in this case because the F&S was in patches and they were able to use the hardwood areas they cut to move the machines around.
Good to see work looking to the future though. There are a lot of wood lots behind me. A fellow with two small Clarke's did a great job cutting quite a few of the lots over a two year period. He cut it hard but left some trees that would be decent size in 10 years etc. Next thing u know only 1 or two years later some of the land owners let a feller buncher and big grapples come in and take anything the first guy left behind. The lots that we not re cut a year later look pretty good now and are well stocked. The ones that were recut are all covered with 1 to 2 inch dbh white birch, black birch, beech and poplar.
The trick is u go to the town hall. Get names of typically out of state absentee LOs who never come up here and dangle the $ in front of them. Most of them don't even know they can make $ off the land so it is like winning the lottery when they are contacted.
There is about a 40 acre tract a couple of mile from me that was recently cut and the landowner now has the land up for sale. The logger did a pretty good job with his skid roads but took everything marketable.
His landing sat right in the corner of two state roads with a fairly high bank on each side but he was able to cut a road up to the landing.
Problem is he dozed out for his landing and as needed pushed his short cut-offs over the hill and let the old fence catch them. Landing has not been dressed back up and looks like crap. First thing a potential buyer sees.
[quote author=chester_tree farmer
The trick is u go to the town hall. Get names of typically out of state absentee LOs who never come up here and dangle the $ in front of them. Most of them don't even know they can make $ off the land so it is like winning the lottery when they are contacted.
[/quote]
Ssshhh... giving away trade secrets. :D and its the county tax office. 4.00 and ive got a topo map, with boundries and names printed right on it in color. Most landowners arent blind to the value of wood, some think its worth gold. They all want to hunt, ATV, land use is the big selling point.
They'll ATV as long as there is a road or trail, if not you can scratch all 3 of the above off the list you mentioned for 95% of the land owers in these parts. I could walk all day across lot after lot and never see a foot print other than my own.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 30, 2014, 08:20:47 PM
They'll ATV as long as there is a road or trail, if not you can scratch all 3 of the above off the list you mentioned for 95% of the land owers in these parts. I could walk all day across lot after lot and never see a foot print other than my own.
That isn't bad thing at times is it SD? :-)
Oops sorry BargeMonkey! Here u can get the info needed off the town tax map and tax records. ;-)
Just wondering what the O.F.A. Logging Standard fellow had to say there on Monday
Did you get any good news?
maybe they put tom in jail for speaking his mind :)
Update on my "fix" job...
I went through and fixed what needed be and then proceeded to thin the rest of this block so I can hurry up and move on down the road. Well...I had to go back in and re-cut due to the LO wanted more money...omg...
He went through and marked a bunch of trees the other day for me to cut...prolly 5 semi loads in one sector. I had a little talk with him and here is roughly the conversation....
Me...I left that white oak due to there isn't a tree around it for nearly 200ft
LO...Just cut it, the stave market is good
Me...Once timber like that is gone...it's gone...
LO...cut it
Me...What about the lower property line?
LO...Go in, and clear cut 50 to 100ft back up the hill from the old fence.
Me...What???
LO...Me and the adjoining property owner are fighting over the land boundary....clearcut the pith out of the line...maybe she won't want to claim it anymore.
Me...Again WHAT??? It's gonna look like dog crap!
LO...I really don't care
This is what I am running in to! I went back in and way laid the Hell out of it just for spite. Wishy washy land owners...always changing up their mind and causing me more work. Did I mention this is on a 50* slope and I had to wade back through all my tops to re-cut? I told him I would not be taking any sort of responsibility with the land line in question...that was going to be on them and I had the guy sign a piece of paper saying it was his decision.
Is that the millionaire land owner?
Quote from: Southside logger on December 07, 2014, 03:25:06 PM
Is that the millionaire land owner?
Yep! But his million wont stand up to the wrath of the adjoining LO...she owns 3 banks...and hates logging! LMAO!
popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley I can't wait to see how this play out!!
Where's Tom?
Please give us an update.
Anybody???, nobody????
??? ??? ???
Maybe Tom didn't like some of the replies.
Was hoping to hear some positive outcome from this, after all the excitement over the logger/forester relationship implied.
Maybe too early for some feedback from @Tom_Averwater (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=32) .
I've been waiting to see how this turns out also.
Tom kind of left us hanging ???
Earth to Tom....come in Tom...
popcorn_smiley
I wonder if maybe a lawyer got involved and said no comments/discussion outside the lawyer/client relationship until the issue is resolved. Either way wish Tom the best of luck and hope he fills us in at some point.
good point never thought of that ;D
I wonder why he has not been on the FF since Dec.1 6:15 am. I hope everything is alright.
He took a pretty good drubbing from several folks over this post. He may not come back. ::)
I'm back . Been having computer problems .
I think 2 weeks ago 2 guys came out for a visit from the Ohio Forestry Assn. for a looksee . One fella was a logger and the other was the forester from the mill the logs are going to . We showed them some of the damage to the residual trees where they would run over or rub the bark off of them pushing over the trees as they felled them . We got mixed feelings from them . They said some of it looks acceptable , which it does . I showed them several areas where there was a road on either side of it, but decided to drive over most of the small stuff flattening it . They said there should of been a pre harvest tour of where the roads are or should be . My forester just kind of stammered around with that one . They said they were going to try to have a talk with the logger about he damage . I haven't heard anything yet .
The loggers haven't worked in 3 weeks ,I think due to the 6" - 8" mud on the road . There are 18" ruts full of water in the main road . They showed up last week to try and work when it was frozen on top but almost got stuck trying to drain one of the mud holes , just making it worse .While I was watching the skidder operator trying to get stuck, the logger / owner walked by and didn't say a word to me . A culvert in a small creek under the main trail is now collapsed with very little flow going thru adding to the mud problem . Water has come up and over the road several times . The touring logger said he would of used a wooden mat in that location.
I found 3-4 Ash tree tops dropped across our line fence onto the neighbors , one of them at least 75'. I sent some pictures to the forester to look at . The forester came out and looked at them . It looks pretty much like hand work to me as the tops are across a deep ravine . There are several large Ash trees still to be cut hanging over the property line . I asked the forester what about those trees and he said the loggers might have to cut and drop them on the neighbors and then pull them back . I would think that was saying it was ok to damage the neighbors property. Wow :rifle:
I've been trying to figure out another access to the back 70 so I can cut more of the undersize Ash for our processor . I have to cross a small creek . I'm looking for a logging dray or self loading trailer that can be pulled with a tractor to pick up firewood size logs that are left over.
crane matts should always be used to cross waterways......or some kind of bridge. its the law here.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on December 23, 2014, 10:56:55 AM
There are several large Ash trees still to be cut hanging over the property line . I asked the forester what about those trees and he said the loggers might have to cut and drop them on the neighbors and then pull them back . I would think that was saying it was ok to damage the neighbors property. Wow :rifle:
Ash are fricken dangerous here! They can be swung and they can be wedged over but I don't play around with them. I would probably get the skidder behind them and give a push back over onto the unit. Maybe you should grab a saw and show them how to do it is all I can think...doesn't sound like you are going to be happy otherwise.
Tom
Thanks for the update. The best to you.
Another logger, likely also associated with the mill, and a forester associated with the mill doesn't sound like a very impartial jury to me. I am glad you came back to share with us.
Quote from: LeeB on December 23, 2014, 12:15:48 PM
Another logger, likely also associated with the mill, and a forester associated with the mill doesn't sound like a very impartial jury to me.
No kiddin.
Tom,
thanks for taking the time to update this thread. It sounds like there is still a lot to be done but at least the logger and your forester are on notice. I hope they got the message and will take the time to do a proper job with the remaining and clean up the site.
The ash trees hanging over the line are problematic. Dropping them and pulling them back is one way to handle it. But that means a lot of clean up on the neighbors land. Don't be surprised if they opt to not cut them at all.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm more inclined to believe they will cut them and Tom gets left holding the bag for damages.
No real way to get a skidder on the leaning side . They are on the edge of a creek bank that is the property line.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on December 23, 2014, 01:00:42 PM
No real way to get a skidder on the leaning side . They are on the edge of a creek bank that is the property line.
they are in a stream buffer and leaning over a boundry......leave um.
Tom. Welcome back. Sorry to here about your computer problems. I think most people on here just offer there honest opinion.
That is better than someone being a yes man. Worked for someone once who always wanted someone to agree with him even if he was dead wrong. I always want an honest opinion even if I don't agree.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on December 23, 2014, 01:00:42 PM
No real way to get a skidder on the leaning side . They are on the edge of a creek bank that is the property line.
Usually in that situation I will hook the cable to them and pull them over with the skidder takes a little time but not bad espesally with two people. I have accidentally dropped a tree over the line a few times but not on perpose.
Loggers came back today and totally destroyed the road to and from the back . They took 16" ruts and made them into 3'ers. The forester doesn't want to shut them down , says they have already torn it up , can't get much worse He says . I'm just waiting for it to rain, then the collapsed culvert will probably wash out . There is mud in the creek from the slop on the trail being pushed off into the creek .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20141231_142716~0.jpg)
Sounds like your forester is somebody's hip pocket beside yours. He is certainly not looking out for your interests.
That happened to me here in Ma.. The state forester had to tell my forester " you work for the land owner not the logger!". If you hired him he works for you. Maybe you have to ask your forester, you do know you work for me don't you? It is your land but they own the trees you sold to them.
Here the mud in the creek would be called "silting the creek" and would result in the state shutting the logging operation down or making them correct the issue in the very least, I suspect it would not work out very well for the forester as well but I have not personally been there so I can't be sure. Just saying....
Oh - and yes it can get worse, a lot worse. I can take your forester to a spot where a tracked processor broke through some soft ground and went all the way down before it was said and done - the only thing above the ground was the head. The resulting extraction hole took a week to dig, was probably 150' across and consumed around 15 loads of logs to crib the bottom up so the machine could be dragged up and out of the hole.
I really hope you can get some control over this situation.
HI. After the operation has finished, try dragging some harrows over the ruts and even them out, then grass seed it. That will hopefully stop any soil movement. You may need to wait for spring
i would call the county forester
I don't know about other states, but allowing that much sediment to enter a stream is not allowed in nc. I didn't look at all the pictures in the album, some of the first and the last ones. At first I didnt see anything really horrible in the first few pictures, but now they are definitely causing a mess that will have long term affects on the site. I'm sure you don't want anymore tree's cut then are necessary, but anything directly adjacent to that skid trail is going to have a hard time from the excessive soil compaction. I know skid trails get compacted and that is just the nature of the beast, but leaving ruts like that is too much. I wish you the best.
lay old hay bales down to filter out the silt.
A job like that in our area made the paper. And it didn't even seem that bad. Good luck with the trouble your having.
Tom you should not have to fix anything. That is the loggers job and the foresters job to see it done to industry standards? . There is a term used
---------better management practice?.
Quote from: Holmes on January 01, 2015, 06:20:39 AM
Tom you should not have to fix anything. That is the loggers job and the foresters job to see it done to ? industry standards? . There is a term used ---------better practice? I will try to find the term.
I'm not going to fix anything even though we have 2 bulldozers , 1 loader and 4 tractors on the farm . I took some videos yesterday and I'm trying to put them on you tube .
I'd like to say some other things but I have to Bite my tongue .
Quotewe have 2 bulldozers , 1 loader and 4 tractors on the farm
Strategically parking the above equipment might get some much needed dialog going.
Quote from: square1 on January 01, 2015, 07:00:18 AM
Quotewe have 2 bulldozers , 1 loader and 4 tractors on the farm
Strategically parking the above equipment might get some much needed dialog going.
:D :D :D
If this was my land I would shut down this job NOW. End of story. Let them try to take you to court to get out the rest of the timber they have paid for and you file a lawsuit to make them restore your land. My guess is that they would put up a stink for a while but have made their money and would move on. The forester is obviously not working in your favor. He should be embarrassed to call himself a forester to allow a job like that to continue.
Quote from: Holmes on January 01, 2015, 08:14:08 AM
Quote from: square1 on January 01, 2015, 07:00:18 AM
Quotewe have 2 bulldozers , 1 loader and 4 tractors on the farm
Strategically parking the above equipment might get some much needed dialog going.
:D :D :D
Don't know about MA or OH, but from experience I can say in MI if there is a dispute of this type and the LO employs measures to deny access such as posting signs and placing barricades and the other party proceeds, LEO(s) responding to the call for assistance will instruct both parties to do nothing more until the dispute is settled. From that point it's a matter of documenting any additional actions.
Not making a judgement on who's right or wrong here, just know that if the three parties currently involved can't come to mutual agreement, in today's everyone has a camera / video recorder in their pocket environment it won't be hard to demonstrate to the arbitrator and / or judge exactly what occurred.
What is a LEO ? I posted a video on YouTube. I couldn't figure out how to link it to my post .
LEO = Law Enforcement Officer / Police
I think (never tried it) you paste your You tube link between ["flash=200,200"]paste You tube link here["/flash"] after clicking the Red "F" icon at he left end of the bottom row of icons available when you reply.
You can also copy the address in the address bar.
Open the video, copy the address bar.
When you paste it here. It will look like this.
Https:blahblahkkkk
Take the s out of the line after http leaving the rest of the address intact.
Then post here.
We will see a video picture and be able to start it by clicking on it.
If you post the name of the video I can post it for you.
Tom, as the landowner you have every right to shutdown that road until it is dry and restored to presale conditions. Absolutely nothing in or out and no work to be done until the damage is fixed and the road and culvert are restored to operating conditions. If you have to, get a gate and lock to block access. If he goes around your road closure, call the cops and file charges against him.
You do not have to put up with that crap. Allowing runoff from that road to go into the creek is a serious violation of the federal Clean Waters Act and it the EPA finds out about the runoff, both you and the logger can be fined big time. It's your duty as a landowner to stop that runoff immediately and have the mess cleaned up.
Can the forester be sued for malpractice?
Quote from: Mooseherder on January 01, 2015, 10:10:31 AM
If you post the name of the video I can post it for you.
Duh ! I thought I had put the name in my post . It is Averwater Timber Harvest . Thanks Mooseherder
Here's your video:
http://youtu.be/3HdLoVG4wVU
Must of been all that he could get to for a hitch to come out with? I would think he could haul out more than that? That does look soft.
That does look nasty now but it should be doable to fix up and have looking nice again after a year or so..
I've been following this thread very closely from the start. That video...wow. That type of operation would have been shut down due to BMP issues in MA long ago.
I hope you are able to come to some sort of positive conclusion.
-T
I have worked in roading and forestry, so heres some advice. The level of compaction in the subsoil will be high, so there may be damage to the roots of the other trees.
If the track can be recrowned (blade it back together into the middle and cut it back out so that the highest point is in the middle) Any decent dozer operator can do this. This will shed water to the sides and not channel it towards the creek.
After forming it, run a small wheeled tractor over it to compact it, if it starts to heave to the side, then its too wet, and stop.
Believe it or not, its nothing major and can be fixed with a days machine time, it just depends on whos paying for the machine time.
WOW tom I don't know what to say but if that was my land some one would be in deep @@@@ that forester should lose his rights to be a forester I would not have enough to do something like that to someone else land yes you may be able to fix it that's not the point and it will never be the same they cant be making vary much money pulling 1 tree at a time I call this a total lack of respect for you but most of all them your name is your life at least in my part of the woods anyway they don't give a crap for you the land or them selfs I think your going to get stuck with a big mess hope not thanks for all the up dates
Quote from: Gary_C on January 01, 2015, 11:14:41 AM
Tom, as the landowner you have every right to shutdown that road until it is dry and restored to presale conditions. Absolutely nothing in or out and no work to be done until the damage is fixed and the road and culvert are restored to operating conditions. If you have to, get a gate and lock to block access. If he goes around your road closure, call the cops and file charges against him.
You do not have to put up with that crap. Allowing runoff from that road to go into the creek is a serious violation of the federal Clean Waters Act and it the EPA finds out about the runoff, both you and the logger can be fined big time. It's your duty as a landowner to stop that runoff immediately and have the mess cleaned up.
here, both the operator and land owner have to sign a best management practice paper and a sediment and erosion control paper as well as a buffer management plan.....that means both are responsible for run off.
Silting up a creek is a big no-no here and I imagine everywhere else too. The ruts are bad but sort of repairable, and I'd be sure the logger pays to repair the road. There was a timber sale on state land nearby here where the old (town owned) road was damaged almost as bad as yours, but you wouldn't know it now. A rutted road is an eyesore and reversible property damage, a silted creek is a violation of the law. I think you need to find a new forester. If you have county foresters there get one over to look it over. You need some good advice from someone with no conflict of interest.
It's supposed to rain up to 1 3/4" Saturday .
Watching the video kinda of reminds me of watching one on open heart surgery. If the surgeon walks away during the surgery you have a heck problem. If he stays and finishes job it will probably be ok. Same with this logger if he does the reclamation work it should be ok. In ten years you would be surprised how well land heals up. I wouldn't be so quick to burn the logger at the stake, after all we all had to do things we didn't want to. If we didn't work food doesn't get bought, bills don't get paid. Nothing worse than small faces saying daddy were hungry. It looks to me he is trying to minimize the damage as he is only using one trail not running all over the unit and tearing the whole thing up. And in the game of logging there is only a small window for perfect working conditions, its either to wet, to hot, to cold, or the prices are to low.
log cutter, go back and watch that video again. You can see where he drives out of the ruts and is making the trail wider and doing more damage. I also think 10 years is to long to wait. That damage should be repaired now to the pre harvest condition.
in 10 years it may be time to do it again (that is if you will ever do another sale)then look at another( mess)maybe maybe not I know I would not want to look at that for 10 years or even 3years this hole deal puts a sour taste in ones mouth
How much timber is left on that job?
log cutter, go back and watch that video again. You can see where he drives out of the ruts and is making the trail wider and doing more damage. I also think 10 years is to long to wait. That damage should be repaired now to the pre harvest condition
I did watch the video. My point was there was only one trail not ten. And yes it does have wet weather issues but nothing that dry weather and a blade won't fix hence the comment on reclamation.
And I guess I always tend to look things different. The first question i would ask is what happens if nothing was done and what would it look like in ten years. Nature has a way of reclaiming the land. Grass would grow. Trees would sprout up because of the seed bed being developed in the process of churning up the soil. The deepest part of the skid trail ruts would form mini ponds that would hold water for awhile which insects and reptiles could use . Don't think thats all bad. It would just take time and in a hundred years the trees would be harvestable.
With that being said I would have shut down long before it looked like it does.
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on January 01, 2015, 04:37:31 PM
It's supposed to rain up to 1 3/4" Saturday .
dump hay bales around were the run off will met the creek. should slow it down and filter the silt
log cutter, If nothing is done that will never be a good usable road. Not in my life time nor my kids and that would not be acceptable. The damage that is being done is not a short little section of trail, it is hundreds of feet long. A good conscientious logger would never work in those conditions.
I've thinned with a brush saw in ground all cut up by ruts. Some places it is very thick to birch where the cuts are. Not down in the cuts, but more like along the cut edge of the ruts. And walking with a brush saw over that kind of ground is not fun. We don't thin for at least 12 years on hardwoods and those ruts like that are there 30 years from now and I live in frost climate that moves the ground up and down. Those ruts will grow good sedges and cattails maybe down in the trough.
Hey Bill you are correct if the logger doesn't reclaim the trail it will be unusable as a road. But my point is nature will reclaim it if he doesn't.
My logger left me with deep ruts. It's been 7 years and they have not filled in but they still hold water. :(
That road has been the access to the back 60 acres or so for 60 years . Nothing else is flat enough . They filled some of the ruts in today with frozen dirt . 8) Just wait till that dirt thaws out , talk about a slop hole . Rough count they have about 100 trees left to cut.
It certainly is disappointing when you put your land management plan into action and end up with a disaster.
if they don't fix the road or do any clean up when job is done and tom went around bashing and showing pic of the mess they left him could he get sued
Quote from: coxy on January 01, 2015, 10:18:31 PM
if they don't fix the road or do any clean up when job is done and tom went around bashing and showing pic of the mess they left him could he get sued
I have said only what I have seen . I sure hope it is still OK to take pictures and videos on your own property. I said earlier ,sometimes I have to Bite my toung.
Not successfully I would say. Nothing he has done or shown is inaccurate and the video and photos document it, he has not even disclosed the loggers name. Personally I would have the truck, any business name, decals, etc in the video as well - its accurate and true, nothing wrong with that.
not now this would be at the very end and nothing was done to try to fix any thing i could tell every one what a bunch of bandits they were and not worry about getting sued again this would be at the end after they moved on and no clean up hope you under stand what im trying to say didn't mean to get any one upset there is a word(s) that explains what im trying to say just cant think of it :)
Im sure they will do some blading to the road to get it back in shape. I think the trick to getting it perfect would be water bars and some kind of seeding ( at least 1/4 ways up from the creek) to help hold it.
I would research what grass would be best for mud road applications.
After a few hot summer weeks it will be good.
I have looked at all this, For my land you could not pay me enough $$$$$$$ to do this to it.
I buy a lot of logs and have been to a lot of logging jobs in NH and I have not seen a job like that one. In NH the state would shut it down in a min.
I mean no disrespect, But I think you forgot who the boss is. That be you.
Would have to be a grass that takes shade I think.
Tom, now would be a good time to do a little research on road reclamation. At a minimum the road needs to be graded and crowned, limed, seeded with annual rye, a good perennial grass for your area and perhaps some clover, and then a matt of straw over the whole thing. The road should then be usable in good weather within a year. Of course the culvert needs to be replaced first.
Does your contract contain language on fixing skid trails and placing water bars?
Your local SWCD should be able to help you with testing the soil to determine the amount of lime and fertilizer to use. If the reclamation is not covered in your contract, you may be able to qualify for some cost share through the SWCD/NRCS partnership.
The contract spells out alot about the reclamation . Time will tell , we'll see what happens . they dropped another tree across our boundry creek on the east side the other day , the top was still in the creek last night . I think they are finished cutting beyond the pipe/creek crossing as I write this . I haven't been back there today , I had to take my son deer hunting this morning .
QuoteThat road has been the access to the back 60 acres or so for 60 years .
Seems to me that if this stretch has been a road for that long, that getting it back in to a good road again will be possible within a year from now. Would appear that tearing up that old road and getting the logging job done and these guys off your property ASAP is the better choice (vs. waiting).
After a winter of freeze/thaw, then the mud will dry in the spring and be workable to form and make the new roadbed with crown, water bars, new culvert (which may not have survived the heavy equipment even without the muddy conditions), ditches, seedbed prepared, seeded, etc. .
Should be back to being that peaceful, quiet woods drive back to the 60 acres in a year or two at most.
i know its to late but 1-2 years to use my land :o >:( ??? :-\ and if i have to do all the fixing and buying of seed and so on where did i make any money
I watched the video. If that is the only way in and out then what else could have been done? The ground is pancake flat and going to hold water and pump. The ruts are deep but they can be fixed I would think with a dozer. The logging crew should have to make this right with you by fixing the road and reseeding. Sometimes this just happens...I think the road will be fine, just be glad it isn't your entire place all rutted up.
I was cutting a job this Spring that looked like Fort Knox tank training area after the skidding was done. We begged the LO to let us come back in the Summer. They had been arrested for dope and were needing money and said they didnt care, just get the timber cut. What else were we supposed to do?
I watched the video. As long as they are sticking to the main road and not creating an alternative routs and repeating the issue, I think this is something that happens. Our mill and woods crews used to spend a lot of time, money and man power fixing trails and even paying for repairs to county roads. You do what you have to do, as long as you realize you have to fix what you tear up. I've seen woods trails that deep and worse many times. Usually due to a skidder in front of a truck and one behind it, Getting the truck in, and back out loaded again. Sometimes time and the weather just don't jive. The one thing that would not be allowed is the problem with the creek. That can't happen. The road can be fixed, usually with equipment available to the logger, fixing and paying for environmental damage is way beyond what you want to get into. Fines can get huge.
Jeff is right on about the creek. That wouldn't even fly down here in Mississippi. Mention of the DEQ gets a lot of attention. But I would be hesitant to get those folks involved, as you never know who they would blame. Could come after the land owner who let it happen. Just sayin. Banjo
After seeing the video it just confirms what I see as some problems with this line of work. Taking thousands of lbs down one single trail multiple times. If the weather does not work with you, you are screwed. I don't know the answer to the problem. I have lessened it with using a forwarder. LO's need to understand this work is weather driven. If you want all the money up front expect most to try to get it out quickly. Even if cash flow is not the problem for the Logger the return on investment is not great enough to tie up your money for months if not years. There needs to be more communication between LO and Logger. We don't want to work in bad conditions so give more leeway to us. LO's around here don't want us to work when crops are in or during hunting season etc... Then they say work only when it is frozen. Heck it has yet to be frozen this year. Most jobs around here can be done in a month or less. In the grand scheme of things a month is an awful short time. One month that you can't deer hunt out of your life? (LO's say Deer all leave when you are logging. But Deer tracks are all over the skid trails when I work?) I guess what I am saying is people need to relax. If we can work together in a reasonable manner things seem to just work out.
Your concern is understandable, but as someone who has seen a lot of harvests in your region, I can say that doesn't really look all that bad to me. It speaks worse for your forester than for the logger. Were that not going to be your only access, a blade and some grass seed could do wonders in short order. To put a useable road in there is another matter. Geotextile and a whole lot of rock will be needed if this is to be a use able road.
I will never have to worry about making that kind of rutted up mess with my little 440 with half bald tires 8) I cut on shares and when conditions get bad I quit or move to a more stable tract . Sometimes I get kinda hungry waiting for it to dry up or freeze a bit though ......
It's in MiDNR timber sale contracts that operations will cease if ruts 12" or more deep, 50' or more in length occur. The job will be on hold until conditions get better.
Personally I think the rutting can be fixed quite easily. However if that is a mapped stream the local Environment department might get their panties in a knot. If that trail is the only access it was inevitable that rutting would occur when a harvest takes place in the spring or fall. Logging jobs are most often not pretty. We are dealing with that right now. Cleaning up a large area of blowdown and the landowner thinks I'm making a mess. Brush and tops everywhere. I've tried to explain that I did not blow his woodlot down.
I'm hoping the loggers show up today to finish cutting and skidding trees . Looks to be a out 40-50 trees left.
They started cutting on the landing side of the creek that they have had to cross . The plan from the very beginning , and the logger was in agreement with it , was to skid these approx.100 trees out along the edge of the field to the landing . No, we come out into the field for about 50' and then plow up a small trail that I use for an access to get my Maple sap out on . UGH ! The forester and I even talked about which way to skid these trees numerous times, even that morning .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150103_142329.jpg) Picture showing loader in background . They were supposed to skid along field edge with these trees .
With the rain we had the creek at the crossing over flowed and was running on top of the road . It looks like a Beaver pond on the upstream side with all of the waterror backed up .
OK , now for a question . How much tree tops and brush are allowed to be left in a creek/waterway ? I can see already where the water is backing up in places from the tree tops . I've delt with brush in the creek from years past when my dad would dump the Apple tree trimmings in the creek , only to watch the water cut the banks out and go around the brush .
The Georgia Best Management Practices do not allow tops and brush to be left in streams.
We don't really have a lot of regulations here....but the creeks get cleaned out!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150103_133501~0.jpg) Water running over top of 30" culvert .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150103_133426.jpg) Water backed up above culvert .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150103_141814.jpg) Brush and tree tops in boundry creek . Left side is ours and the right side is the neighbors .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150103_141644.jpg) Down stream from logging where 2 creeks come together , showing muddy and clear water .
Quote from: Tom_Averwater on January 06, 2015, 07:11:00 AM
I'm hoping the loggers show up today to finish cutting and skidding trees . Looks to be a out 40-50 trees left.
They started cutting on the landing side of the creek that they have had to cross . The plan from the very beginning , and the logger was in agreement with it , was to skid these approx.100 trees out along the edge of the field to the landing . No, we come out into the field for about 50' and then plow up a small trail that I use for an access to get my Maple sap out on . UGH ! The forester and I even talked about which way to skid these trees numerous times, even that morning , even that morning.
With the rain we had the creek at the crossing over flowed and was running on top of the road . It looks like a Beaver pond on the upstream side with all of the waterror backed up .
OK , now for a question . How much tree tops and brush are allowed to be left in a creek/waterway ? I can see already where the water is backing up in places from the tree tops . I've delt with brush in the creek from years past when my dad would dump the Apple tree trimmings in the creek , only to watch the water cut the banks out and go around the brush .
none
Have you consulted with an attorney yet?
Sorry for you Tom, I could not imagine my woods getting torn apart like that.
I know some will say there's two sides to this but it seems obvious he has a mess.
May seem irrelevant, but could you take some stump pictures?
Quote from: Corley5 on January 06, 2015, 08:23:33 AM
Have you consulted with an attorney yet?
No I haven't . Been waiting to see what he says he is going to do first . I usually try to give someone a chance to do the right thing , BUT.
I know here in Virginia both the logger and the landowner can be held responsible for silt and debris in the brook. Not really sure how they would look at this situation, I mean the logger must know that at the very least he needs some silt fence along that crossing, anything to attempt to slow down the runoff, throw a bridge over the culvert or something to at least make it look it like he is trying. The "forester" won't do anything to stop it and if that stream has any fish in it down stream they will be impacted. Personally if it were my land I don't think I would stand by at this point and do nothing, at least cover your butt. Maybe talk to an atty and see about sending the guy a registered letter saying you are aware of the issues and expect him to correct them, in compliance with the applicable law, so you are not left holding the bag when he leaves.
I just spoke to a technician from our county's soil and water . He told me that the landowner would be held responsible for silt in the creek because we own the land . He said that he could put pressure on the logger to fix the problems . Sounds like it's time to smiley_hanged high .
they can, should and will put pressure on him. if they don't the county forester will and he may contact water resources......lets hope they fix it before water resources comes out.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on January 06, 2015, 03:52:55 PM
they can, should and will put pressure on him. if they don't the county forester will and he may contact water resources......lets hope they fix it before water resources comes out.
Usually, at least down this way, and having experience in both SW. Va and NE. Tn if you have made a good faith effort to follow proper regulations for stream protection they will give you time to prepare a mediation plan and implement.
But if you just go haphazard which looks like what has happened in your pictures in my opinion it may not end well. The other landowner that has his property affected may, and I certainly would, drop a dime. None of the experience I have is in logging and how it effects waterways but mainly construction meetings I had to attend while working for a previous employer.
Hope all ends well for you.
That stream would definitely be in violation of the forestry practice guidelines for nc, and I'd say most states. While silt in the creek is not allowed, a little can be expected. But backing water up in the channel is a no go. Each state is different as how water quality regulations are enforced and by which agency. Hope you are able to get this straightened out soon.
Contact the State Forestry Department responsible for Best Management Practice Enforcement. They will hold the logger responsible.
You need to do something right away to stop him Tom so it his goose that gets cooked and not yours.
Quote from: Jeff on January 06, 2015, 09:40:49 PM
You need to do something right away to stop him Tom so it his goose that gets cooked and not yours.
X2, you have let this guy get away with trashing your place for too long, IMO.
I can remember a logger 20 years ago that got fined for falling trees into a stream and leaving it and the stream cut a new path.
Used to working on steep ground in BC and loading of a gully (most have seeps or tiny runs of water) on them hillsides was quite often a recipe for a major land slide down that gully. Not to mention slopes were inheretly unstable to begin with with 2.5 meters of annual rain. However, the best tall spruce (220+ feet tall) grew on the fans at the bottoms of them slides to. And yes there were lots of natural slides around that had nothing to do with logging.
QuoteYou need to do something right away to stop him Tom so it his goose that gets cooked and not yours.
X2, you have let this guy get away with trashing your place for too long, IMO.Quote
X3, this is getting criminal. The situation needs to be corrected soon as it is getting beyond what is expected of a prudent and environmentally sound logging operation permitted along and within a water course on private property.
What a shame to see your woods left like that, what up sets me more is a logger doing work like that and then we all seem to get roped into the same category as land rapers.
Tom, here is what the Virginia Forestry Dept has on their website concerning logging. Didn't read the links. Maybe it can help you. IMO once the logger pulls his equipment off the site you are going to be left holding the bag.
Loggers operating in Virginia are required to prevent sediment pollution in the waters of Virginia due to their operations. VDOF recommends the use of site specific BMPs to prevent pollution. The Silvicultural Water Quality Law in Virginia (ยง10.1-1181.2) does not require the use of BMPs. It simply requires pollution prevention and/or remediation by whatever means necessary. This outcome based approach has proven very effective and BMP audits are performed to determine implementation rates on average as well as effective use of specific BMPs in Virginia. Virginia's audit process conforms to the principles of the Southern Group of State Foresters Water Resources Committee (SGSF-WRC) protocol.
Best of luck to you.
In most states, the BMP's are voluntary. That is fine until you have a water quality violation. Then you have to deal with the Feds. So, in effect, they are not voluntary after all.
Our best management practices are voluntary and encouraged, but our forestry practice guidelines are required and enforced. The fpgs allow exception from the sedimentation and control act for forestry practices. Violation of fpgs can result in fines from one of the denr agencies, but woody debris blocking stream channels can actually be a criminal offense. This is only from silvicultural activities, and I can't remember it going that far on any job I've seen, but degrading water quality is pretty serious business in most states.
The burden can fall back to the landowner if it goes that far and the logger doesn't fix the problems. It sounds like the forester isn't doing his job.
The forester on this job is worse than worthless. Tom is obviously going to have to get very aggresive to get things straightened out here. You can't expect a bunch of hacks like that to make things right on their own. I would have an attorney working hard on this one- I don't like that route, in fact I've never used it, but some people will not make things right unless they are forced to. These guys obviously fall into that category, and it would be good to see this "forester" found negligent in court, too. I would be trying to make them pay for someone else clean up their mess- can you see this outfit being able to do any remedial stream channel work? I'd be surprised to see them fix their ruts and restore your road to pre-sale condition.
This is all a good example of certifications and education being worth not much more than the paper they are written on, when they are held by individuals that don't give a rip about the quality of their work.
To me, a lot will depend on what is written in the contract. Maybe they are pretty free to do what they want.
Very little experience here, other than when I bought my property. Had a lawyer work on getting a clear abstract.
Rec'd a call and he asked "Are you buying this land with interest in the timber on it?"
I said "yes, certainly am".
His response "then you may have a problem. Hiram Walker and sons have a recorded contract on the property deed (in the county courthouse) that they have all rights to ingress and egress on your property"
Turns out, HW & sons had a contract to take the white oak for staves, and the previous owner's lawyer had failed to get that contract off the recorded deed. Was no problem to get the owners of the property to remove it, but still was a sobering thought. Had it not been removed, HW & sons could have moved in anytime to take more white oak with their right to ingress and egress at their discretion.
True, times have changed with more Gov't watchdog organizations, but still the contract with Tom is maybe where the loggers (and forester) may have their apparent "free reign".
So far, don't think we know what that contract says, but many are assuming that it wouldn't let them run rampant over the land and landowner. From what I interpret from Tom (via his silence mostly), that he is involved in doing what is needed.
Beenthere, you raise a good point, but some of the things they are doing to his property (creek damage and siltation) are not allowable under any conditions.
The waterway damage is the worst offense. Just because this logger bought the timber doesn't give him the right to destroy the rest of the property harvesting those trees.
There are no "rights" to rut and compact the soil, destroy roads, trash creeks, etc. no matter the contract.
I posted in another thread some specs from MiDNR timber sales pertaining to wildlife from the bid packet I got today. One of those sales has vernal pond areas. "No harvesting operations, including skidding and felling are to take place within the vernal pond areas which are bounded by red paint. When harvesting occurs there should be no disturbance to the vernal pond depression. All equipment, trees,and tops should be kept out of the area. Within 100' of the pond equipment should only be used when the soil is in dry or frozen condition. Care must be taken by the Purchaser to identify and avoid operating in these areas of the timber sale." That's how the MiDNR feels about a wet spot that's got water in it for only a few months of the year. Timber sales don't even get close to trout streams.
Also in the packet were the specs on rutting. Two of the sales are "Operations are to cease immediately if equipment and weather conditions result in rutting of roads and skid trail which is 12" or greater in depth and 50' in length. The Unit Manager and his/her representative may restrict hauling and/or skidding if ruts exceed the specified depth. With the Unit Manager's or his/her representative's approval the Purchaser may return to the area when the risk of rutting has decreased." That's how it reads for two of the sales in this packet. The third sale has a 25' rut length before operations must cease.
Our standard was no more than 6" ruts for two machine lengths.
I finished reading this entire thread just now, and it almost makes my head hurt. That "forester" and the logging crew are amateurs out for a quick buck with no hassle. I am sorry for your forest.
In MN, the DNR standard rutting rules are 6" max for 50' and the logger is expected to take measures to reduce rutting before it reaches 6" deep. It was not unusual for the DNR Forester to ask me to throw some slash in places where it appeared to be starting to rut.
There are some common sense things you can do to reduce rutting. Probably the first thing is if you start to see any sign of small ruts, never drive in the same track the next time you pass that point. Move over one wheel width the next pass and alternate to the other side the next pass. If that does not even out the ruts, put slash in the soft spots or cease operations. Never operate in the rain or or where there is standing water or you are sure to cause ruts.
If you are going to mix water into soil you can expect a mess and Tom now has a mess.
Quote from: Corley5 on January 08, 2015, 08:28:25 PM
I posted in another thread some specs from MiDNR timber sales pertaining to wildlife from the bid packet I got today. One of those sales has vernal pond areas. "No harvesting operations, including skidding and felling are to take place within the vernal pond areas which are bounded by red paint. When harvesting occurs there should be no disturbance to the vernal pond depression. All equipment, trees,and tops should be kept out of the area. Within 100' of the pond equipment should only be used when the soil is in dry or frozen condition. Care must be taken by the Purchaser to identify and avoid operating in these areas of the timber sale." That's how the MiDNR feels about a wet spot that's got water in it for only a few months of the year. Timber sales don't even get close to trout streams.
Also in the packet were the specs on rutting. Two of the sales are "Operations are to cease immediately if equipment and weather conditions result in rutting of roads and skid trail which is 12" or greater in depth and 50' in length. The Unit Manager and his/her representative may restrict hauling and/or skidding if ruts exceed the specified depth. With the Unit Manager's or his/her representative's approval the Purchaser may return to the area when the risk of rutting has decreased." That's how it reads for two of the sales in this packet. The third sale has a 25' rut length before operations must cease.
vernal pond? delmarva or carolina bay the same thing? really just a seasonal inpoundment.
These are areas where amphibians breed. You ever walk in the woods in spring time when them pools have breeding frogs with egg sacks afloat? Or here the peepers. My woods is full of these pools in the spring that are dried up in July. Unfortunately for us humans they brood biting insects. But the frogs have to eat. ;D
Well ,they pulled out today . All of the machinery is gone . The forester and I had marked about 25 trees that were damaged and big enough for logs that we are supposed to get paid for. I thought they were going to cut them yesterday , but they didn't cut them . I asked they forester and he said it wasn't worth their time , but I was still getting paid for them . I'm going to call him tomorrow on that .
I emailed my state forester the other day telling him the situation and he said don't sell out on my forester yet, that he has faith in that he will see it thru .
I stopped at soil and water today and talked to their technican , asking if he could be of any help . Their dealing would be if there was sediment in the creek and if/or somebody complained about it . He did want some of my pictures to show to someone , I think at ODNR . He talked about maybe having the game protector come out and look .
the saga continues.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 09, 2015, 06:01:00 AM
These are areas where amphibians breed. You ever walk in the woods in spring time when them pools have breeding frogs with egg sacks afloat? Or here the peepers. My woods is full of these pools in the spring that are dried up in July. Unfortunately for us humans they brood biting insects. But the frogs have to eat. ;D
yup, called delmarva bays here. we now getting a 100 foot no cut around them. i don't think that is fair, i have always gone around them and cut lighter near them.
We have always called them vernal pools like Corley because they are just a spring time thing, the meanng of vernal. The ground is drained enough that they dry up, but flucuated water table with the seasons or storms. When they are storm driven they are more ephemeral, sometimes gone in a day after the rain.
Treeslayer, I hear you there. Down here its 50' off a stream and 50% canopy, but there has been a big push by USDA type folks to come out and start to fence off all streams where cattle are even close using grant $. I hope we don't go down the road you did and start to tax rain water.
Quote from: Southside logger on January 10, 2015, 08:41:55 AM
Treeslayer, I hear you there. Down here its 50' off a stream and 50% canopy, but there has been a big push by USDA type folks to come out and start to fence off all streams where cattle are even close using grant $. I hope we don't go down the road you did and start to tax rain water.
we get 50' buffers on flat streams, more if its steep. the laws are funny and open to interpratation on what you can take........have to leave so many basel feet but that normaly easy to do. at the same time you can clear cut pine and poplar.........clear as mudd lol.
now tidal is normally 50-100' no cut unless they think some thing special exists, then it can be 200'......without proof of anything being there.
i had a job i had to leave 75% canopy becuase it was tidal critical area.......canopy was for birds to roost............................
dad cut it 27 years prior and it was like a park full of nice oak and poplar. won't get much poplar regen with so much canopy this time.
Wouldn't it be nice if an experienced Ohio forester or logger chimed in on this subject?
I been thinking the same thing . What hapenned to Autocar ?
The semi with the knuckle boom and slasher tore the telephone line down going to my brothers shop on the way out .
The forester emailed me telling me he sent the logger a bill for the damaged trees . I asked about the status of the culvert , but no reply yet .
did they fix the logging road or is it still to muddy
Quote from: coxy on January 11, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
did they fix the logging road or is it still to muddy
They graded alot of the main road , but it was frozen solid when they did .
I am still out here Tom been busy sence the ground froze up, i am a master logger though the Ohio Forestry Association and have talked to the people in Columbus about this problem Iam not a liberty to say anything but will try to give you some information when it all gets layed out on the table. I will say it is not a example that the Master Logger program wants to set but there are always bad apples in the barrel and sence it is a voluntary program policing is a bit tuffer. This is a excellent program and has alot of saftey and land management training , keep the faith and we will see how this all turns out.
Quote from: Autocar on January 11, 2015, 01:02:39 PM
I am still out here Tom been busy sence the ground froze up, i am a master logger though the Ohio Forestry Association and have talked to the people in Columbus about this problem Iam not a liberty to say anything but will try to give you some information when it all gets layed out on the table. I will say it is not a example that the Master Logger program wants to set but there are always bad apples in the barrel and sence it is a voluntary program policing is a bit tuffer. This is a excellent program and has alot of saftey and land management training , keep the faith and we will see how this all turns out.
Thanks !
Be sure that your forester doesn't release the performance bond until all is satisfactory with you.
I am also a logger in ohio and am only a first aid class away from my master logger certification. I have been keeping up with this thread and it almost makes me sick. this worthless excuse for a logger AND a forester are the EXCEPTION- NOT THE RULE! they should be ashamed at themselves for what they did to you, your land, the stream, the neighbors line and just the general position they put you in. I make syrup myself and to not be able to use your paths like you did sucks. what pisses me off also is the fact that around here the foresters are given a free pass because they are "college educated" and most have worked for the state. what difference does it make if they are bumbling incompetent idiots that are just after a paycheck. the fact is money makes the world go round and logging is basically piecework, but a guy CAN make money doing it the right and legal way. oh and he can sleep easy at night knowing a *pithed off landowner isn't wantin to knock his teeth in the next morning at the job. it seems that tom has been more than reasonable with these unreasonable parties long enough. (the forester is just as much to blame here as the logger) . it pains me to even say that because we don't need any more spotlight shinin on this business that can sometimes get a bad rap that it doesn't always deserve. the reason I joined the master logger program is to set myself ABOVE the morons NOT to be LUMPED in with them. I know that all regions have different standards and expectations of the job but I am also in ohio and if I pulled a job like this I would have to look awful hard for the next job.... that is unless I have a forester like this in my back pocket too. I think the OFA is now involved and I hope they do something about it that tom is happy with. if we don't hold ourselves accountable and do a good job because we want and know we need to, then the state will watch over our every move and set laws(that will no doubt be screwed up because that what they are best at). at one of our logger chapter meetins they talked about some potential laws, and I cant remember them nearly all but I do remember it would be a total pain in the ass following the laws that our "representatives" would make. the last thing we need is more regulations. we need more accountability of ourselves. hopefully I didn't step on any toes here but this is how I feel. I know the woods aint gonna look like a park when you're done but come on.
Quote from: OH logger on January 11, 2015, 10:22:32 PM
I am also a logger in ohio and am only a first aid class away from my master logger certification. I have been keeping up with this thread and it almost makes me sick. this worthless excuse for a logger AND a forester are the EXCEPTION- NOT THE RULE! they should be ashamed at themselves for what they did to you, your land, the stream, the neighbors line and just the general position they put you in. I make syrup myself and to not be able to use your paths like you did sucks. what pisses me off also is the fact that around here the foresters are given a free pass because they are "college educated" and most have worked for the state. what difference does it make if they are bumbling incompetent idiots that are just after a paycheck. the fact is money makes the world go round and logging is basically piecework, but a guy CAN make money doing it the right and legal way. oh and he can sleep easy at night knowing a *pithed off landowner isn't wantin to knock his teeth in the next morning at the job. it seems that tom has been more than reasonable with these unreasonable parties long enough. (the forester is just as much to blame here as the logger) . it pains me to even say that because we don't need any more spotlight shinin on this business that can sometimes get a bad rap that it doesn't always deserve. the reason I joined the master logger program is to set myself ABOVE the morons NOT to be LUMPED in with them. I know that all regions have different standards and expectations of the job but I am also in ohio and if I pulled a job like this I would have to look awful hard for the next job.... that is unless I have a forester like this in my back pocket too. I think the OFA is now involved and I hope they do something about it that tom is happy with. if we don't hold ourselves accountable and do a good job because we want and know we need to, then the state will watch over our every move and set laws(that will no doubt be screwed up because that what they are best at). at one of our logger chapter meetins they talked about some potential laws, and I cant remember them nearly all but I do remember it would be a total pain in the ass following the laws that our "representatives" would make. the last thing we need is more regulations. we need more accountability of ourselves. hopefully I didn't step on any toes here but this is how I feel. I know the woods aint gonna look like a park when you're done but come on.
good post
OH logger
Bravo!!!
Al
OH Logger is right. The forester is the one who is at fault here. He was supposed to be the reason stuff like this don't happen in the first place, He is the one that got paid to protect you. I have had foresters that the only time I saw them was when we signed the contract and they got paid. Ran into one once after a big sale at a Meeting he ask if everything went ok on the sale...And that was 3 years after the sale was done!
A good forester is a real asset to a landowner. A bad forester, unfortunately, is just another hand in the pot.
Hi Tom Anything good happening?
I occasionally have logged in to this site out of curiosity to what's been going on, you should have canned both the logger and the forester long ago, you have let things go too long now to have any control and God help if the environmentalest get wind of the creek situation, get a lawer on board because somewhere down the road you are going to need one, don't know about the regs. There but here in WA you would be in a world of hurts over the creek just to start with.
always been a "do it myself" type. If I want it done right I gotta do it myself. The very best way to get out timber is with horse/mule power. Next best is with small tractor. Cutting trees carefully, one at a time, cutting them down to shorter length to pull out. done it both ways here. very minimum damage to good smaller trees that way. I get both landowner and loggers pay that way. Yah it takes much longer, so what? I like the work.
We have several 1000 acres of timber company land around us, it had been logged with mules back in the 1960's, loaded on trucks with ramps from a bank, (sometimes sawmilled right in the woods and lumber taken out to sell) woods was nice and clean with almost no noticeable damaged trees or ground. Timber was getting mature for harvest again. Owner of company was a good timber man, took care of his land and resources. But he died and his heirs just wanted money, didn't care how it was gotten. They hired the modern big equipment logging crews and tore it up something terrible, took out millions of ft of timber, wrecked a good share of the future young trees, left the woods full of huge deep rutted skid roads because they kept at it right through mud season when nobody should be doing much out there. only minimal recovery with dozer afterwards. it'll never be the same again.
When we bought our land here in the mid 80's there were several guys around who still logged with mules. Now I know of no one who does it that way. I bought an old logging mule to get started. With a pickup truck, chainsaw, and cant hook, that was my equipment inventory.
The big equipment usually has big payments to keep up with, and insurance payments as well. They have to get it out fast and keep rolling to keep up. Generally the bigger the equipment and the faster the job gets done the worse the damage to the woods. Also someone hired to do the job has no reason to care about the future timber like the land owner does. And when the landowner seems to not care nobody has incentive for anything but raking in the cash. I graduated to forklift and military 6x6 truck later. went to using a farm tractor when the mule expired.
QuoteThe very best way to get out timber is with horse/mule power. Next best is with small tractor.
You really should have added to that "In my opinion". In fact the whole post.
I can come up with dozens of scenarios where that statement won't float. Horses and tractors are not necessarily low impact to start.
that part about not caring is not true..........many of the tracts i have cut, my father cut......he cared. i care and hope my sons will be able to harvest from the same familys my father and i have. if one dosen't care about the woods, he should not log.
X2 slayer back in 2011 I harvested a lot my grandfather cut in the 70s then my father cut in the early 90s we all used skidders and there was minimal damage to the residual stand. That lot will be ready for another harvest in another 20 years or so. It's the operator wayyyy more than the machine
X3 I've been in the Forest Products Industry by entire life and I know that reubenT's post is what it is. Biased and opinionated. I'll leave it at that. I'm not saying that to be crude or rude, I'm saying it because from my experience and position to observe as well as participate over the years, I know it to be that.
X4 I have cut a couple tracts that my dad had previously cut 2 times before. We do respect the land and each time the tracts were logged it was by rubber tire skidders. Why wouldn't we have respect for what feeds us? 15 to 20 years down the road one of these tracts may feed my family again. 8) 8) p.s. i have seen recent similarities maybe a name change?
Dad cut with horse on the farm in the 70's and then went to skidder, and I helped cut to. We never tore the land up or the trees. You could barely find the skid trails after 3 years and the trees that were standing were not skinned up. It's often a different view when it's your land and you have to look after it. We had cut aspen out of one place in '84 in the 20-30" range. It was now getting to be 10" and that hurricane came through this summer. All that new aspen is on the ground. Nature can make messes to and big ones. :D We had 450 acres in woods, there was far corners we never even got to. We cut logs every year and always firewood. There was a time we had to cut firewood year around to keep ahead for 2 houses and potato storage barns. For firewood, one cuts the poor stuff not his best. Lots of poor stuff to because we are on the edge of hardwood forest.
Quote from: so il logger on January 28, 2015, 11:51:07 PM
i have seen recent similarities maybe a name change?
I would say no on that since I have access to the things I need technically to tell. :)
Quote from: Jeff on January 28, 2015, 09:56:25 PM
QuoteThe very best way to get out timber is with horse/mule power. Next best is with small tractor.
You really should have added to that "In my opinion". In fact the whole post.
I can come up with dozens of scenarios where that statement won't float. Horses and tractors are not necessarily low impact to start.
Agreed. In my experience, it's the care and experience of the operator that makes the difference... MUCH more so than the equipment. A landowner willing to pay what it's worth for that extra degree of caring is also a significant factor.
I agree with you guys 100%. We log with a 425 Timbco and a 648G3 and yes at times trails need to be wider but with attention and care there is very little residual damage. I have seen careless guys with small cable skidders make it look like a nuclear waste land. As for the highest buyer there is a reason for it at times. You can't expect someone to pay to top dollar and at the same time take extra time and effort to leave a nice forest. We all have to make money at the end of the day.
" As for the highest buyer there is a reason for it at times. You can't expect someone to pay to top dollar and at the same time take extra time and effort to leave a nice forest. We all have to make money at the end of the day."
I said that in my first post way back on this subject. All the bidders probably had the same contract to go by, but the guys that came in at half price actually meant to abide by it.
I know, I know, that doesnt give them Carte Blanche to ignore it .......What the loggers thought was acceptable, the landowner didnt, which leads to a mediator of sorts..... just saying....
Well it's been a month now since they pulled out . Neither forester or logger have been back . I keep hearing thru email that they have the truck loaded up and ready to come and take care of a few issues , neighbors board fence , semi ruts along driveway and rutted berm on the state highway . That's about all that can be done at this time .
The collapsed culvert has overflowed at least twice . There is now about 5" of silt in the creek below the culvert . That's OK , the brush that is clogging this non "Blue Line Creek" is holding it back . :D :'( . Just waiting for a really good rain , 2-3", that 30" culvert will be 3/4 full at times .
I've been busy with trying to get my Maple sap tubing back up and going. The first time to try and get to the other side of the creek I got stuck in a hidden mud hole with a tractor .
Ihave to get some more pictures on here . I'll be back!
Everything must be frozen now. Might have to wait till spring to fix things.
How much snow do you have?
thanks for the up date tom
Quote from: Peter Drouin on February 06, 2015, 06:12:33 AM
Everything must be frozen now. Might have to wait till spring to fix things.
How much snow do you have?
It was frozen on top 2-3", It thawed out and now we have about 1" of snow . That will be melting today .
Tom
Has there been any time since they pulled out that the ground was ok for coming back in to repair the ruts and replace the culvert?
Yes , it was frozen for a week or more , but I've never seen frozen dirt or mud graded and turn out satisfactorily when I was doing construction . A dozer would probably get stuck in some of the ruts .
In MN, you could probably have the DNR come out and look at the damage to the riparian areas and they would issue a restoration order. The only problem is it might apply to you, the landowner, in some regard. I still think you will end up in court with this situation, if you want it fixed. These guys have passed up way to many opportunities to do the right thing on their own.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150204_154020~0.jpg)
A picture of the boundry line creek with tree tops in it .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10032/20150204_154048~0.jpg)
photo of creek just above previous picture . Note how clear of brush we try to keep it .
Update : My brother and I spent 5.5 hours in the woods yesterday with the forester marking the trails and roads to be opened back up . the forester used his GPS on the trails to locate them again . About 3/4 of the way thru he says the GPS hadn't logged part of the trail . :-X I just sat down and waited for him to backtrack . I asked him if he was going to put the GPS on the dozer when they grade the trails , but I didn't get an answer . He marked the trails with blue tape and at one point I asked him if I could do the flagging and him record and was told no. I guess he wanted to feel like he was doing something . ;D . on some of the trails the slash and trees are so thick it's going to be a real mess when they are done. My brother calls the forester about once a week and says " what's the word " . They have just picked the wrong fella to pith off . He can be a real pit bull when he needs to be and enjoy it while he's doing it . The forester keeps telling us the logger is still coming back .
We are going to run into an issue of not having enough dirt to fill in the holes on the trails and to be able to grade them properly. The the trail leading to the landing is probably lost 1' of dirt . The logs were so muddy there was probably a wheel barrow's worth that went out on each trees .
My brother called the forester from the OFA that visited the site during the harvest and told him what was going on . I think they were going to have a meeting on this .
We ask the forester again about the brush in the " non-blue line streams " and said it was OK to leave it . Another forester we had out last week said it was not ok for the brush to be in there . I need some direction from the forum on this because this is definatly an issue .
The brush in the boundry creeks is no longer where it was . Most has washed downstream , some as far as 300 yds. Making a jam up Across the creek .
I'll have to get some more pictures on here . Gotta go . Thanks Tom
Frustration to no end. Your state agency should help you but my guess is they will try to stay out of the problem until it gets resolved. You could insist they visit your project for clarification of " best practices", and logging rules. You may have to insist more than once.
Without a doubt if i cut that close to a brook or put the trees in a brook like that my forestry career would be over in nova scotia .I would not be able to pay the fines if they decided to charge me.
Quote from: furltech on April 24, 2015, 11:33:34 AM
Without a doubt if i cut that close to a brook or put the trees in a brook like that my forestry career would be over in nova scotia .I would not be able to pay the fines if they decided to charge me.
Yup, do that around here and your fine will likely be over $10,000 ... and that's before the clean up costs for removing all the limbs from the brook and repairing any damage caused by winching the trees out. Put the legal fees on top and would likely be close to $15, 000. And that's if you get lucky, have a good lawyer and the judge happened to be in an extremely forgiving mood.
" And that's if you get lucky, have a good lawyer and the judge happened to be in an extremely forgiving mood."
And i never have that kinda luck :D :D
I'm wondering if it's really that severe. Sure, it's on the books here in NB. But if you can yard up small streams no wider than a cow path, and turn it into a multiple channel brook like veins in a leaf and on public land, whose going to enforce it elsewhere? I think besides DNR on crown land, there might be 3 Dept of Environment in the whole of NB. With all the messes in the woods around here, you never hear of convictions. I've seen steep ground logged off and have those gravelly side hills give way and wash down Salmon River, a good many times. Laws aren't much good if not enforced.
Swamp ... very different here in NS, this winter every Crown block we were on the DNR flew over once a week in a helicopter to inspect the site. They have no trouble pressing charges here.
Here in PEI riparian zone damage has fines that start at 10,000 for a contractor and 2000 dollars for a landowner. Just for comparison, thought I would add a couple of pics.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/reparian_1.jpg) This would be a gully were drainage and accumulation would begin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/reparian_2.jpg)
Put a sediment barrier about 100' down the gully.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/reparian_3.jpg)
About 100' below that water starts to dampen the ground.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/reparian4.jpg)
Riparian zone begins were water volume and flow are sufficiant to cut the surface of the ground...LFG layer
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/reparian_5.jpg)
All activity must stay back 100'.
Never done here on private land and haven't seen it on crown land either other than along road ditching. Some places where I thin the ground is one rut to the next, all cut up.
I was thinning a block near an operation that was harvesting in heavy down pore. They had the public road all trashed. A ranger comes along through a woods road narrow enough for barely a pick-up truck to ask if I could move. Where? Anyway it was raining hard then, so I was leaving soon. I asked him about the road they trashed and the harvesting in heavy rain, whether that was what they called BMP. His response was something like they gotta do what they do. So that's how it works up here. ::)
I re bee your first posts on this and the continual bad posts on what was going on, your forester and the logger should have been fired long ago so to be realistic, they got their money and you are going to be stuck with some horrendous bills for clean up and fines, should have listened to advice others gave long ago, I myself can't imagine how people like this are allowed to operate and surly hope you take them to court for damages and the outcome on your behalf is in your favor, sue them for the cleanup, ground restoration,, damage to the left trees and aggravation, unprofessional ism and what ever else you can think of, run them out of business, Better buissnes beauro, word of mouth, talk with DNR about them, your going to end up dealing with them eventually with the stream issue, get these guys Blackballed, they did it to you and they will do it to others.
Good Luck.
Shout out to Tom... How did the re-conditioning of your woodlot go since the walk-through in April?
Hope there was some recourse for you and brother to get the place put somewhat back in reasonable order and usable for trails and such.
Tom kind of left us hanging...
Quote from: ga jones on November 07, 2014, 01:00:38 PM
It's logging not landscaping!!
This is correct. Logger's get a bad name, i can not attest to how said property was treated. I do the best i can for the future of the land and timber growth. I am 3rd generation in the trade, i have logged tracts that my father had logged twice before me. I am not by any way saying this landowner was not wronged. I am saying sometime's there is no way of pleasing a landowner, once the check is cashed.
Every time I read this thread my blood begins to boil.
The OP hired a Forester to protect his interest and there is evidence that he (the Forester) failed to do this.
If a Forester operated like this in Ontario he is liable and can be sued and have his license to practise forestry suspended or revoked.
The logger in my opinion based on the pictures and operating practises was of the "get er done" type operating in the grey area, definitely not a leader in quality operations.
In my opinion the Forester is responsible for this fiasco and it may be that the OP is not responding because the mater may now be before the courts.
My nickel's worth
Al
X2, Al