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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Brandon1986 on November 23, 2014, 05:19:52 PM

Title: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 23, 2014, 05:19:52 PM
Ok so I know a lot of post have been made about the tooling required to operate a mobile sawmill, but is it possible to get all this going from scratch for under $4000?  This is what I have now.  Decent 15hp home made fairly accurate band mill $100 (basically this thing is rusting in my back 40 come get it please) Everything to get said mill in good running order $500.  Good old low mile pickup to support sawmill $800. Trailer to make mill mobile $200 modify trailer to go under current mill $300. Stihl 660 $300 (I used to work at the local stihl dealer so I acquired a burnt down one for free and rebuilt it) log tongs cant hook other assorted small tools $500. Stuff to build my own cable log loader for my pickup $600.  Do I lack anything BASIC to go out and do this? I'm not looking for in depth lists I can use the search feature for that.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: reswire on November 23, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
50 bucks for head-ache tablets, 50 more for Doan's back pills, and that should do it. ::)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: SawyerBrown on November 23, 2014, 06:04:42 PM
Hey, Brandon, welcome to the Forestry Forum! 

You mention "mobile sawmill", but are you doing milling for yourself or custom milling for others?

A couple things -- "fairly accurate" band mill -- how accurate is that?  If you're milling for others, my thought is you need to be "pretty darn" accurate, that customer is going to expect to get good stuff out of a likely limited supply of logs.  Good quality is important, I would think, if you're going to get a positive recommendation and grow the business.

The other thing is the cable loader on your truck.  How big a log can it handle (safely!)?  Again, if you're custom sawing, there is some expectation of being fairly efficient and getting through those logs (however many) in good time.  A truck will also be a bit limited on where it can go and not get stuck (as opposed to a tractor, skid steer, etc).

Otherwise, I would say you have the basics, with the exception of a good supply of blades to get started ($200-$300 maybe?)

Not trying to discourage you!!  Just some things to think about.  Good luck!!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 23, 2014, 06:16:30 PM
Brandon, the way your asking.....honestly no....In my opinion.

Now on the other hand.....do you know if your area is hungry for sawmill lumber?
Do you have a way of getting logs you can be sawing to sell lumber, in between mobile jobs?

An option is to finance a new sawmill or one that is slightly used. If there is enough work, you can make it. :)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: mad murdock on November 23, 2014, 06:25:37 PM
Welcome brandon1986! I think it could be. Obviously you have a skill set to make do, (rebuilding the 660) so you can save a lot of money by thinking outside the box and engineer cost effective solutions that work for you without needing a new piece. Expensive equipment each time a "need" pops up. Knowing your area and potential market will really reveal I it will pan out for you. If your area is saturated with mobile millers, might have to work harder to find and fill that niche that is not currently being serviced. The 660 will do nicely to break doe large pieces that won't fit on the mill. Maybe even consider a CSM attachment to be those pieces that can't be gotten any other way, then finish off in the band mill. Lots of possibilities, only limited by your ideas, IMO! Good luck in your venture 8)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 23, 2014, 06:28:00 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Brandon1986.  Yup, you can make an "operation" but I am not sure about a "business operation"  ??? 
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Napoleon1 on November 23, 2014, 07:16:56 PM
You can do anything you set your mind to do and have the will power to do it. If you listen to the ones who say you can't do it you never will be able to. Now it might not be easy but you can do it.Microsoft started in a garag. When I was a lot younger a smart old man told me I was to stupid to know I could not fail.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Delawhere Jack on November 23, 2014, 07:18:53 PM
You're Crazy.  :D

Hate to burst your bubble, but without hydraulics you are kidding yourself. Been there, done that.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 23, 2014, 07:19:23 PM
Thanks for the welcomes folk. I guess a little more info is in order, the cutting I have done is all straight within.... 1/32-2/32 I would say.  Not having done much with rough cut I guess I don't know if that is within acceptable parameters pre planer.

Thinking more about the info I put out it wasn't full enough I should augment that I come from 5 generations of loggers (I am like 2 times away from related to the Pelletiers off of "American Logger") My father and uncle started their own logging operation in Alaska in 1984 BASICALLY hung it up in the mid 90's in favor of excavation, but kept the logging iron (self loading log truck and clark 668 skidder).  They usually take the wood off of whatever residential house sites we dig. All that is to say that I have some free saw logs as I come across them and access to ways to move 10 cords at a time if I REALLY want to, but I want to be as un-reliant on the big iron as possible. The "Log truck" I built has handled fairly heavy logs (24"x12' green cottonwood) and done it safely all it really needs to do is drive me to work and gather up the saw logs I get during the course of clearing the house site just an exercise in efficiency. 

Also Define "make it" I already hold down a State job and a job with pops. I want to make it a fun hobby that will pay for itself + a little to buy other tooling and maintenance.  I was 18mos old in a car seat of a log truck I love the logging part and want to see the side of it that happens after we drop the wood so why not make a self sustaining hobby out of it. 

I did forget to mention that I just got a mini mill for the 660 (that got the hotrod rebuild so it screams) last week for $150 just so I could cut down the bigger timber to put on my band mill.

I am not sure how many mobile mill operations are around here I have seen 1 lt28 being pulled this summer, so my guess is not very many if any.

If I can figure out how to post pics I will get some up.   
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 23, 2014, 07:31:45 PM
Well that changes everything Brandon.  :D

I work for the state also. With your toys you can have a really nice hobby and make a little money on the side.
But like Jack said and Magicman said, with out Hydraulics, I don't think you will have the BACK to have a business.

And yes....we would love to see some pictures......thats what we prey on.  :D :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: ozarkgem on November 23, 2014, 07:38:52 PM
It all boils down to BF per day. I doubt you can saw a whole lot on a manual mill by yourself in one day. By myself I can get about 700 BF a day. I have some hydraulics on my mill with a lot of support equipment. Don't forget the time it takes to get the logs to the mill. Specialty stuff might be better. Thick slabs, fireplace mantels, cookies, ect. Give it a shot and see what happens. I failed in 3 business's before I hit a home run. 
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: barbender on November 23, 2014, 07:41:14 PM
Quote

And yes....we would love to see some pictures......thats what we prey on.  :D :D

Actually, Poston preys on people that have $300 burning a hole in their pocket ;D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: DR Buck on November 23, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
Brandon,  You should update your profile to show your location.  That plays into whether you can make a go at it or not.    I also see nothing about cost of insurance.   If you plan on going mobile and setting up on other peoples property without insurance, your are putting everything you and your family own at risk.    Depending on location you are probably looking at ~$100 per month for a minimum coverage policy.

And to echo others, without hydraulics you will not have the bf rate per day to make it profitable.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Cedarman on November 23, 2014, 07:53:27 PM
I ran an LT30 manual from 1983 until 1996.  Two of us could saw 30 tapered cedar posts per hour.  We can't do that with hydraulics, too slow.  The scragg will but that is a different mill all together.  I sawed a log of 17" x 16' poplar by myself.  Did have tractor with boom pole to load logs.  When I started, we used .035 blades and no dial setter and a small hand feed sharpener.  15 cents a foot for custom sawing.  But 15 cents did buy a lot more 30 years ago.
Too often people get hung up on how many board feet you can get across the mill in a day.  Not the right question is being answered.  How much profit can you make in a day is the correct question.  Sounds like you have cheap logs.  That alone makes your margin better than if you have to buy logs.
The other question I always ask myself when I do R&D, is what is the downside if it doesn't work out and what can be the upside if it does.  If you can live with the downside, then the upside takes care of itself.
I was told my little LT30 was just a toy and go have fun with it.  The person that said that later had me saw a lot of RR ties for them.
Later I was told that no one could make any money sawing cedar.
Later I was told that we could not make a business of making mulch out of whole cedar trees as that idea would not work.
Good luck Brandon.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 23, 2014, 08:10:39 PM
Well I tried with the pic thing, but apparently "you don't have permission" is what the internet thing tells me whatever that means.  I will try later from a different computer.

I am 28 years old 6'2 230 pounds fairly lean and I grew up in the woods.  I am not afraid of a little manual labor haha.  Getting the logs to the mill really isn't an issue because I will drive my handy dandy self loading F350 self loading log truck to work if I know that we are going to be on a job that will yield some saw logs load those logs on the truck as they come out of the woods, drive home and from there the truck will be parked next to the mill and as the logs come off of the truck they will go from the bed of the truck to the mill deck and be cut into.... whatever, from there. Pretty efficient wouldn't ya say.

I THINK the mobile part will be where the specialty stuff comes from.  There isn't a lot of saw logs in my area, mostly cottonwood, aspen, spruce (under 18"), and paper birch which I think is a very pretty wood when finished right, but none of it really makes for a large quantity of quality dimensional lumber.  The only reason I will cut dimensional is because I can high-grade what comes off of job sites and bring it home and do it slowly. 

If I make $3000-$4000 a year with this thing I will be ecstatic because I have for all intents and purposes I have no real overhead and in a few years I can justify an LT-15 go and maybe like a self loading log trailer after that if I can get moderately big.

I hadn't even considered the insurance that is a VERY good point! Also I guess the downside if it doesn't work is I have a pile of playthings in my back yard that cost about $4000 I don't use much but sure had fun building from the ground up.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 23, 2014, 08:33:25 PM
Did you read/watch the "Picture Posting" thread at the bottom of the index page?  LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61788.0.html)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: customsawyer on November 23, 2014, 08:41:18 PM
I say go for it. Keep in mind that when you make mistakes, and you will, they are learning opportunities.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 23, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on November 23, 2014, 08:41:18 PM
I say go for it. Keep in mind that when you make mistakes, and you will, they are learning opportunities.

Are you talking about posting pictures?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 23, 2014, 09:33:24 PM
Ah a tutorial! Dang State computer has you tube blocked DOGS!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: beenthere on November 23, 2014, 10:06:10 PM
QuoteState computer has you tube blocked

Makes for good sense. You can view them on your own computer tho.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on November 23, 2014, 10:58:05 PM
Brandon1986,

When figuring your costs of doing business don't forget DOT.  An F350 will be over 10,000 lbs. GVWR, especially pulling your mill.  There are several threads on this topic but think medical card, commercial vehicle insurance w/ hazmat endorsement, motor carrier records, annual inspections, etc.  If someone tells you are exempt make sure you obtain documentation to back it up - the alternatives can be very expensive.

The first question probably should be, "is there a market for my product or service?"  If so, how is that market being satisfied currently?  If not, then you might be able to create one... or acknowledge that there isn't one and cut your losses.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brucer on November 24, 2014, 12:12:30 AM
No, you aren't crazy. And don't listen to those wimps who say you need hydraulics to make money with a mill  :D :D.

This is me, age 56, with  a 33" dia x 20'-7" Ponderosa Pine that I winched onto my manual mill ;D.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11885/NST_Aug_1.jpg)

That was a killer of a job but the owner was so impressed that he decided to buy a truckload of logs for me to saw, instead of buying pre-cut timbers. Fifteen Douglas-Fir logs, 50' long, 22" to 24" diameter tops, all bucked (by his employees) to 16' lengths.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11885/BRs_05.jpg)

That job wasn't so bad until ... it started to snow. Six inches on the ground the week after that picture was taken. That really slowed me down :(.

After that, things kinda got out of hand. Owner started buying logs by the truckload. I had to switch to full time sawing. Then upgraded to a hydraulic mill. Added a 6' extension, then another one. Bought a twin-blade edger.

So, yes, if you're keen and can take the work, you can start with a tiny budget and make-do equipment and bootstrap yourself up to a serious mill and serious log-handling equipment.

Read Cedarman's comment about daily profit being more important than daily BF. Read it again. Remind yourself every day.

There's a saying that if the blade isn't in the wood, you're not making money. Nonsense! In 2009 I sawed exactly half as much wood as I did in 2007 but I made more money than in 2007.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: 5quarter on November 24, 2014, 12:28:50 AM
Brucer...good post. I've always said that if you're not on the phone you're not making money.  ;) :D
seriously, hydraulics have their place. for example, members Backwoods and magic could not do what they do without them. but there are as many business models out there as there are sawyers and only some of them really require an hydraulic mill. as long as you keep your day job, you really don't have a lot to lose, but a whole lot to gain. It doesn't get any better than doing what you love and making a few bucks doing it. Saddle up and make some dust (sawdust, that is).  :)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: 5quarter on November 24, 2014, 12:30:33 AM
Do you have the picture of yourself in traction a day or two after sawing that big pine?  ;) :D :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 24, 2014, 01:02:48 AM
Ok Now that I am on my home computer here is a short time lapse of my set up the day I got the "log truck" done.  I still need to finish building the trailer for the mill to go on. I know its small wood but it was just a trial run.  I did end up selling all the cants I made that day for $10 a piece to someone for a raised garden bed 20 cants $200 paid for my mill twice over haha
http://youtu.be/Ye_jeJvUbAE
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Ianab on November 24, 2014, 01:15:22 AM
Because you are going into this for little more than "hobby" money, and are only planning a part time business it should be possible to get things off the ground. The thing is you don't HAVE to work "x" number of days a month at it. You don't have to make "y" payments each month on a fancy mill. You just have to make a few bucks on each job. As the guys have said, that includes maintenance  / depreciation etc, not just the days expenses. Eventually the mill engine will wear out. Or you will need to spend a day rebuilding something. Even if you are doing it yourself, that's a days work, that you aren't being paid for. Unless you make a bit extra on the working days.

Other things that have been mentioned is speciality work. The mantles, beams, odd species, live edge slabs that people can't buy off the shelf. Also, making things from your sawn wood and selling that. Outdoor furniture, cedar chests etc. Then having a manual mill isn't such a big deal as it's only a part time sawing thing.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Puffergas on November 24, 2014, 01:38:54 AM
I like this plan.. ;D
But we should be asking for your advice.   :P
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 02:00:52 AM
I've never heard of "mobile milling".  I know 99% of our customers just want lumber and don't care how it's made.
A few do bring in weird stuff to get milled but thankfully it's not too often.  Stuff like burls, resawing something they bought (like we cut some big glu-lam beams in half a few weeks ago)

The market is pretty saturated with sawmills already and it's hard to compete with the local lumber yards.  There's no money in selling 2x4s at $3 each like SBS or Lowes does.  Thankfully we do other work than just milling because the supper table would be pretty bare.

We used to be the Woodmizer dealer, believe me there are LOTS of mills in this state!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Chuck White on November 24, 2014, 05:31:02 AM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Brandon1986!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: SawyerBrown on November 24, 2014, 06:28:25 AM
Quote from: Delawhere Jack on November 23, 2014, 07:18:53 PM
You're Crazy.  :D

Hate to burst your bubble, but without hydraulics you are kidding yourself. Been there, done that.

Hey, he's 28, big, and yet to experience his first back surgery.   :D  I'd say go for it.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: delvis on November 24, 2014, 06:42:39 AM
Brandon, you have a job and it sounds like you're more than willing to put the effort in to running a sawmill so here is my two cents worth:  I started with a $5,000 budget.  I used that for my down payment on my first hydraulic mill and have never regretted doing it.  I won't lie to you, there are times when the money isn't coming in and that payment is still due, but if you're willing to travel with the mill and you charge enough and don't short yourself, you can make enough to make your payments and have a little left over for yourself ON a part time basis. 

Another option would be to take a look at a new manual mill that can be put on a trailer.  I have a hydraulic mill and there are times when I wish I had that new Wood Mizer LT15 wide just to be able to handle big logs when they come.

I agree with what other people are saying in that you want to have a mill that is quite accurate and not fairly.  People know what a band mill will make for lumber these days they expect more from each log.  These days, it's standard to have lumber that is the same dimension from one end to the other and not thick and thin.

Keep at it and you'll get where you want to go and remember this forum is a great resource for any information you may want as you go along.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 08:13:30 AM
I guess I'm just thinking 5k is peanuts.  I put 135k into my business to go full time last year and I could have easily put double and triple that.

It didn't buy very much either.  Firewood processor, skid steer, old dumptruck, couple used chainsaws, some tools, repairs and sorta covered labor for 2 hired hands.
Just about every bit of profit I've made, I've rolled back into the company.  Newer, better equipment = less down time plus more output.

Ex that mill you have, sure you have $500 or whatever into it, but you mention it taking most of a day to cut 20 beams for a garden at $200.
That's not too bad if that's the only job you have to do, but if there is a decent demand you'll be running yourself into the ground trying to keep up.
Vs a decent sized mill at $35ish k, those beams would be an hr job.

I've pretty much been there, done that.

I started doing firewood by accident in 2012.  Bought a log truck load for my own heat and had a few folks ask if I was selling wood.
Decided to advertise a little bit, next thing I know I'm pushing 500+ cords a year  :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 24, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
A couple of comments regarding regulations you will face being in (above board) business.  There may be mention of "flying beneath the radar" etc, but this approach conflicts with being in  business where you want as many people as possible to know about what you are doing.

One advantage of starting on $4000 budget is that the depreciation for your equipment will be this amount, or less.  In business, with respect to taxation,  you get to subtract expenses from income (revenue) and pay tax on the difference. Depreciation is one of the expenses.  It will be easier to show a profit, or have less of a loss,  when getting started, if your expenses are low at the beginning, because your revenue will be low, too. One of the IRS tests for whether you have a business or not (which pertains to whether you can deduct expenses from you income and pay tax on the difference, as opposed to just on the income), is whether your business shows a profit in the last 3 out of 5 years of tax filings.  As long you can make some money with what you already have you may be able to make a go of it.    You would not want to start a sawmill business with little or no experience, a homemade sawmill, and go buy another piece of expensive equipment that you have to claim depreciation on.  Going with what you have right now lowers the stakes for a number of reasons, including taxation.   Of course the down side is whether you have enough to make enough of a salable product to make money.

Looks to me like the AK DOT rules define a commercial vehicle used inside the state, as over 14000 pounds.  http://www.aktrucks.org/servlet/content/faq.html   I definitely suspect the 14000 means the combined GVWR's of your truck and trailer.  You will probably not be going out of AK otherwise I think the requirement for USDOT kicks in at over 10000 pounds (for international in your case).

So you would want to take care that you keep the truck plus trailer GVWRs 14000 pounds or less.  Meaning look at your truck GVWR and plan to keep your trailer registration low enough to stay below the combined limit. Otherwise you will need to get a USDOT number and be subject to all the DOT regulations.   You will not want to take this regulatory challenge on, for what you can make with your current investment.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 24, 2014, 08:46:29 AM
After watching your video, I will have to revise my previous response.  You showed some "getty up & go" that has "gotten up and gone" for me.  :-\  :D   More information is always good.

Without identifying your potential market, you could easily invest $4k $40k+ in a sawing operation and go "belly up".  Your equipment will surely change as you get some sawing jobs under your belt, and you appear to have the planning skills necessary to make it go.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: just_sawing on November 24, 2014, 08:48:54 AM
First Mill I bought was a 00Frick in which my wife asked me to sell with having small children and them with me all the time I did.
Six Months later I bought a LT40 non hydraulic. I paid for it in a year learning and sawing.
Then LT40 super hydraulic. It paid for itself in a year also
Then LT70 It paid for itself in a year and a half
I now have machinery and such but the bottom line is as I learned the hard way it isn't how much you cut but how you handle what you cut. I am running the 70 by myself and don't regret it. What I am going to is to cut less but cut with a higher margin of profit.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13282/01b599fc562f2c181d9e363c159ba2d98d6c50c0cc.jpg)
This is a piece of wood like a thousand other pieces I have burned many time over. Now that scrap is worth $35 dollars. This is good for me and not you but what I am trying to say is everyone will have opinions and they may mean well but the bottom line is it is up to you to make a game plan and drag it home to the family.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 09:08:28 AM
I wouldn't even worry about it.  Just don't plaster up the truck with logos and you'll never have an issue.
They aren't going to stop anyone with a duallie pickup or a pickup and trailer unless it doesn't pass the "sniff" test...

You know like the guy hauling 2 John Deere 9560s on a huge gooseneck with a Dodge 3500 (I'm not kidding!... in case your wondering, that's about 80,000lbs of tractor  :o!)



Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on November 24, 2014, 08:43:41 AM

Looks to me like the AK DOT rules define a commercial vehicle used inside the state, as over 14000 pounds.  http://www.aktrucks.org/servlet/content/faq.html   I definitely suspect the 14000 means the combined GVWR's of your truck and trailer.  You will probably not be going out of AK otherwise I think the requirement for USDOT kicks in at over 10000 pounds (for international in your case).

So you would want to take care that you keep the truck plus trailer GVWRs 14000 pounds or less.  Meaning look at your truck GVWR and plan to keep your trailer registration low enough to stay below the combined limit. Otherwise you will need to get a USDOT number and be subject to all the DOT regulations.   You will not want to take this regulatory challenge on, for what you can make with your current investment.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 09:19:09 AM
Anyhow OP, if you want to talk shop and hear all sorts of old time logging stories come down to the shop and talk to Russ.  I'm pretty sure he made boards on a mill for the Mayflower (ok ok... I'm kidding).  He's around most days from 9-10ish till around 5.
Bring coffee and donuts  :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: 78NHTFY on November 24, 2014, 09:31:15 AM
Not crazy--Go for it!  1.  All equipment is paid for. 2.  You have a "real" job that supports you.  3.  You're young, strong, smart and have "passion" for the work (unlike me who only has the passion part--that ain't bad, is it?) :D.  4. you have family in the business, so a good support system. 5.  As and when the biz grows, you can always upgrade to bigger equipment to meet the demands of the markets you want to serve. 
The only way to really make is work is to start doing it and learn by doing--you'll figure out everything as you go along.  Looking forward to hearing of your success in the coming years!  All the best, Rob.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: pineywoods on November 24, 2014, 10:52:16 AM
Go for it. I started out with less. Hydraulics is nice, but it won't help gettin logs on the mill or handling the lumber and scraps. If you can build your own mill, you can definetly add homemade hydraulics. Go here for some ideas.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,39860.0.html
I have no idea how many different mills this has been applied to since I made the original post. I have personally built 3. From the pics of your mill, you would probably need to beef up the frame a bit where the turner attaches..
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 24, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 08:13:30 AM


Ex that mill you have, sure you have $500 or whatever into it, but you mention it taking most of a day to cut 20 beams for a garden at $200.
That's not too bad if that's the only job you have to do, but if there is a decent demand you'll be running yourself into the ground trying to keep up.
Vs a decent sized mill at $35ish k, those beams would be an hr job.




That was about an hour and a half of tinkering... so put in that light that's like $150hr job right there haha

Quote from: Nate379 on November 24, 2014, 09:08:28 AM


You know like the guy hauling 2 John Deere 9560s on a huge gooseneck with a Dodge 3500 (I'm not kidding!... in case your wondering, that's about 80,000lbs of tractor  :o!)





I used to work at united rentals before I started with the state.  I had people trying to pull 12,000# skidsteers with their for explorer. Once witnessed a 2500 dodge pulling a hitachi ex120 on a bumper mount trailer.  I don't know how he made it at all. 

I appreciate all of the helpful comments on this along with some thinking about some of the stuff already accomplished has helped me make an educated decision.  I am going to give it a try! I have a little more fab work to do before I can make an honest run at it, but as many of you have said what have I to loose if it doesn't pan out, really nothing! I guarantee if it doesn't work or I get bored of it I can sell everything for MUCH more than I have into it.  I had fun building everything thus far so there is no loss.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: gimpy on November 24, 2014, 04:28:56 PM
Just a personal opinion. Since I'm not getting paid for it, it's probably worth the cost. I did plenty of things when I was younger that may not have been the best way of doing something but in the end, I made it work but I had to work harder than I needed to. Perhaps.

A friend and his girlfriend are cutting 3 cords of firewood every day. Selling it for $200 a cord. 2/3 daily profit.

If it were me, I might consider going with firewood since the mill is a bit sketchy but you have a good saw. Easier to rig up a lesser trailer to a lesser truck and haul a bunch of firewood.

Since you have a regular job, I'd stick the firewood money in a sock for a couple of months and then go out and buy a used mobile mill (for cash) and hook it up to the same truck and start your milling. A good accurate mill is a much better way to go. But do this endeavor debt free and you'll grow well until you can replace your day job.

But, the answer to your original question is yes you can. Either way you go. Good luck.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: glassman_48 on November 24, 2014, 05:54:56 PM
Brandon1986,
Welcome to the forum, and at your age and your experience, I would be surprised if you didn't make it :laugh:  When you look at some "iffy" jobs or get yourself in a spot, come back here and I am betting you will get some more good advice.  I would also look at the smaller type specialty milling jobs, or fireplace mantels etc.  that might take less time but deliver you some better $$$.  good luck, Ed
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: boscojmb on November 24, 2014, 10:20:01 PM
Hi Brandon,
I did well with a manual mill for several years in Alaska.
The trees that far north are tiny compared to the trees in the lower 48 and easier to load and turn by hand. The advantage to a hydraulic mill is significantly less.
I found my niche milling off the road system. A small mill can be towed behind a snowmachine (snomobile for those in the lower 48). If you can get your mill in to places that a delivery truck can't, you can basically charge whatever you want for the lumber.
Back in 04, where I was A 2" x 8" x 12' was about $8.00 + $50.00 air freight from Anchorage.
Alaska in a very unique place. Most business models that work in the lower 48 would never make it in 907.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: dustintheblood on November 25, 2014, 12:06:43 AM
Are you "crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?"

Wayyyy back all I had was a beat up ford pickup, and a powersaw.  Naive and didn't know fetch from sickem.  Still don't know much more than that, but I do know now that the forest and the wood business provides well for my family.

Totally made some dumb decisions along the way, and some really good ones.

This forum is an amazing resource, but I still remember going into the local coffee shop with all oldtimer farmers and asking them a question.  If there was six there, I was guaranteed at least seven different answers.

In the end, it was up to me to get up in the morning and do something.  Anything.  Over time, I figured out what was a waste of that time, and what paid off.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brucer on November 25, 2014, 12:25:40 AM
Quote from: 5quarter on November 24, 2014, 12:30:33 AM
Do you have the picture of yourself in traction a day or two after sawing that big pine?  ;) :D :D

Nope. It wasn't allowed. We'd planned to go on holidays for a week and my wife wasn't taking any excuses :D.

The winch on the manual WM is mounted to the frame with a 3/8" thick angle bracket. I bent it loading that log :o.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 25, 2014, 12:57:54 AM
Quote from: boscojmb on November 24, 2014, 10:20:01 PM
Hi Brandon,
I did well with a manual mill for several years in Alaska.
The trees that far north are tiny compared to the trees in the lower 48 and easier to load and turn by hand. The advantage to a hydraulic mill is significantly less.
I found my niche milling off the road system. A small mill can be towed behind a snowmachine (snomobile for those in the lower 48). If you can get your mill in to places that a delivery truck can't, you can basically charge whatever you want for the lumber.
Back in 04, where I was A 2" x 8" x 12' was about $8.00 + $50.00 air freight from Anchorage.
Alaska in a very unique place. Most business models that work in the lower 48 would never make it in 907.

I dunno what you consider big but we have somes los here that won't fit in an Lt40 Woodmizer.  I believe it can do up to 36" across. 

Made a bunch of 3"x24"x18' the other day for top boards on snow hauling dumptrucks.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 25, 2014, 08:10:34 AM
I looked at a Red Oak job yesterday.  The 13' butt log is 39" butt and 34" top.  The second cut is 34" and 30".  The job also includes some 20 footers. 

They will all be heavy and require hydraulics.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: dboyt on November 25, 2014, 09:59:52 AM
There's a lot of difference (weight) between a big pine log and a big red oak like MM described.  Even with a manual mill, you can turn logs with a front end loader, but it takes longer.  If you're going to work with logs like that, make sure the mill is stout enough to handle them.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 25, 2014, 11:05:33 AM
I have had a 30"x12' cottonwood on my mill that I slabbed up for a quick work bench.  I had to take my 660 with the ripping chain and 36" bar to carve off some spots that were interfering with blade guides and other such important things.  To get those heavy ones on my mill I have nice long ramps and a 40" rope attached both ends to the mill about 8' apart (parbuckled) attach the looped end to the back of my sportsman 6x6 and make sure I don't pull it clean over the mill.  Then turning the cant on the deck is just a matter of bruteness and a can't dog.  By and large like it has been said most of the wood up here falls under the 18" range so I can almost just pick it up and put it on the deck.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 25, 2014, 04:37:12 PM
I thought about my last sentence in Reply #46:
QuoteThey will all be heavy and require hydraulics.

No way can the LT40 lift a 13' Red Oak log with a 39" butt.  That baby will weigh between 5500 and 6000 pounds.  It will take a combination of the sawmill's loader and the customer's FEL.    Of course I will try, but experience tells me that it will not happen.  ;)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 25, 2014, 05:38:20 PM
Log like that I'd tell customer be prepared to have me cut off 2-3 feet.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 25, 2014, 05:53:37 PM
Yes, in the past when the customers did not have a loader, I have suggested that the customers trim back to 10'.  They have and I can load that, and even turn it using both the log turner and the log clamp.   ;D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: drobertson on November 25, 2014, 06:28:17 PM
I'll never forget my first 12+ 36"+ log,(red oak) the mill lifted it, I was going by the specs then.  What I'm saying is they get heavy in a hurry,  I've seen enough engineering from the folks with manuals on here to know just about anything is possible,  the main thing is know the limitations, and keep your eye on the possibilities.  It just boils down to hard work.  But the reward is there.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: DR Buck on November 25, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
I've done 38" and 40"  10 foot oak in the past.  It makes the hydraulics groan.    I have a 9 foot 40"   in the yard now waiting for me to mill.   It takes a long time to whittle something that big down to the point you can pull the first board off.   :'(   

The heaviest I've had on the mill was a 20 foot 34" poplar, fresh cut.    It was loaded with a tractor bucket pushing up along side of my loader arms.    It took 3 guys with cant hooks in combination with the hydraulic turner and the 2 plane clamp pushing it up to turn it over until I got it cut down some.   I cut 3" thick slabs out of it.   I think I remember it taking 7 or 8 guys to move the slabs off the mill onto their waiting truck.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 25, 2014, 08:22:41 PM
A fresh cut Poplar has a tanker full of water in it.  :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 25, 2014, 08:33:15 PM
One very cold morning (~20°) we rolled a 12 foot, 40" Red Oak onto my loader.  I couldn't lift it, so we whacked it back to 11'.  Still no go, but I did load it when we shortened it back to 10'.

I do not know if it would have been better with warm hydraulic fluid?  Also I have learned to use the log clamp, chain, and end tong to assist the loader on it's initial left from the ground.

I have sawed more than one 42" butt log, and they were no fun to whittle/Bibby down.  :-\
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 25, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
For a customer....I will attempt a big log like Magic was describing.......but you can bet your sweet Bibby I will be charging by the hour. And thats s fact Jack!  :)
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: SawyerBrown on November 26, 2014, 06:32:58 AM
Quote from: Magicman on November 25, 2014, 08:33:15 PM
One very cold morning (~20°) we rolled a 12 foot, 40" Red Oak onto my loader.  I couldn't lift it, so we whacked it back to 11'.  Still no go, but I did load it when we shortened it back to 10'.

I do not know if it would have been better with warm hydraulic fluid? 

Magic, that 40" log would have weighed between 5000 and 5500 lb (depending on taper), so your mill may have a shot at picking up the 13' log ... 

My little mill had a red oak on last week, 15+' long, about 34" at butt and 30" on the other end, putting it somewhere in the 4500 lb range, picked it up as easy as a smaller log.  Temp in the 20's.  I'm wondering if you might be starting to get some leakage in your hydraulic pump just from normal wear/age? vs a newer mill.  If that's the case, colder (higher viscosity) hydraulic oil will give you more lifting power than warm as long as your pump speed doesn't drop too much from the heavier oil.

Interesting that the advertised capacity on these mills (21', 36" diameter) would put a red oak log at over 9000 lb, apparently way beyond the lifting capability.  Not that you'd ever find a perfectly round 36", 21' red oak log.  But kind of fun to dream about ... let's see, that's over 1300 bf -- enough for Mrs SB's new hardwood floor in a single log!!   ;D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 26, 2014, 07:44:21 AM
Both of my hydraulic pumps have been replaced since then. 

The 21' and 36" are both maximum capacities.  I do not believe combined capacities, especially for the hydraulic capability.   
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: SawyerBrown on November 26, 2014, 08:57:53 AM
Just curious ... what drove you to replace hydraulic pumps?
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 26, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
My LT40 Super....or, not and....
4400 pounds, or 36", or 20.5 feet, about 27" maximum board width

That being said, I've sawn probably 5200 pounds, about 42" (oval log 34 x 42"), more like 20 ft 8" without "scooching", and nothing can be done about the 27".
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: backwoods sawyer on November 26, 2014, 11:56:46 AM
If you spend all your $$$ on tools you will need to go make some more to operate on.

Are you crazy, well we need more info to deturmine that ;D

12' x 38" pulled in tight with the clamp is a max load for the hydraulics with loading arm legs flat on the ground. Soft ground and side hills reduce that a bit.
About the time the log is half way loaded, the loading arm legs start sinking in the soft ground, the mill starts to buckle up lifting the inside legs and shift towards the log is when you know you have to much log ;)
Now you have to get rid of it and reset the mill and that all cost time. 





Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 26, 2014, 12:46:32 PM
So being fairly green at milling let me pose this question to those of you that are trying to handle those 5k# + logs.  My plan for handling those is trim them down to a manageable size with my 660 and mini mill. Why can't you do that, aside from a possible loss of useable wood which if properly planed wouldn't be that much it would seem to me. Or possibly the time it would take to do it?
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Magicman on November 26, 2014, 01:12:31 PM
There is nothing at all wrong with trimming logs down, just time consuming.  Even with my sawmill, anything over 36" has to be trimmed either with the sawmill or a chainsaw.  We call it Bibbying out of respect for one of our senior FF members, Bibbyman.

QuoteJust curious ... what drove you to replace hydraulic pumps?
A couple of different instances related to the motors, not the pumps.  It was simpler to replace the pump/motor unit than to wait for the motor repair shop to get the necessary rebuild brush rack kits.  I did have one pump that was leaking fluid but it was still pumping fine.  I ended up with a spare pump/motor assembly, so any failure in the future will not cause any appreciable down time.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Delawhere Jack on November 26, 2014, 06:10:51 PM
Just skimmed through some of the replies and didn't see this mentioned.

You can mill mobile with a manual mill, but you won't be able to charge as much per hour. Or if you charge by the board foot, it's going to take you longer to produce as much as a hydraulic mill. You're looking at at least a factor of 2x difference.

I started with a manual mill, using a hand winch to turn logs. After turning an odd shaped 1,200 lb cherry log one day, I got home, had one beer and went to bed at 7:30pm.......And slept like a log. :D

You've got to have an idea of what the end cost per board foot is going to be for the client. If that price is going to approach the retail price of comparable lumber (which is also dried and usually surfaced), they aren't going to hire you. Some small jobs I do, say one or two cherry or walnut logs, where the client has no equipment on site, the cost for milling approaches $1/bf. That's ok, because the lumber will be worth much more than that. On softwoods that would be a deal breaker.

Anyway, give it a go. Just keep in mind that $800 pickup trucks have a way of becoming $2k, then $3k, then $4k trucks...... Don't ask.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: JoeB on November 26, 2014, 06:52:10 PM
Well said Delawhere Jack! X 2
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 27, 2014, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 25, 2014, 08:22:41 PM
A fresh cut Poplar has a tanker full of water in it.  :D

I had one last night that at 20ft I could barely lift with the skid steer.  It was over 5000lbs.



I chuckled at the "one very cold ~20* morning".  20* is sweatshirt weather for most Alaskans.  -20* on the other hand is getting pretty cold.  My equipment starts getting cranky... And me too!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Cedarman on November 27, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
At minus 20, I don't even crank. :D :D
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 28, 2014, 01:24:53 PM
My $800 pickup was a steal I think I could clean it up a little and sell it for $2500 pretty easy, but thats one of those things that is a debateable sawmill expense in the first place due to the fact that I will use it way more for other things in life than milling, to include a minor restoration project just for fun.

I already had decided on the fact that sawing demensional lumber for profit would be limiting with my set up and the type of local wood, so if I do it profit margin would be VERY slim. I guess I just like to cut lumber and once cut I don't have much to do with it so making it cover itself is all I really want.

Another idea I was tossing around was building and selling sheds. I think selling a finished product would be much easier than selling raw lumber. I THINK (and correct me if this is a bad idea) that if I frame it with spruce and side it cottonwood (when its kept dry it lasts just fine) I might be able to sell those with next to no overhead.

On a side. Note if this post doesn't land in the right spot or looks funny I'm sorry but I am experementing with doing it on my Iphone
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: york on November 28, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Brandon,ya did ok with your phone-have a friend who is into the shed thing and there is a waiting list for his sheds....
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on November 28, 2014, 03:06:22 PM
Brandon1986,

"I guess I just like to cut lumber and once cut I don't have much to do with it so making it cover itself is all I really want."

That statement may shoot your business plans in the foot.  IRS deductions for business expenses, depreciation, etc. are predicated on the intent to generate a profit from your business endeavors.  That statement pretty much indicates that it is a hobby and most deductions would not be permitted.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 28, 2014, 03:16:29 PM
Swing by the shop today, I'll be here till pretty late.  I have a bunch of bandsaw blades you can have.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Puffergas on November 28, 2014, 11:29:09 PM

Quote from: Brandon1986 on November 28, 2014, 01:24:53 PM

Another idea I was tossing around was building and selling sheds. I think selling a finished product would be much easier than selling raw lumber.

Sheds are a hot item at two auctions that I go to every year.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 29, 2014, 01:56:58 AM
Sounds like I found a winner idea then!
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 29, 2014, 02:09:50 AM
Nate just saw you're based in palmer I am suprised to run into someone on a world wide forum that lives so close. Which shop is yours?
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 29, 2014, 04:37:06 AM
Mat Valley Milling, not owned by me, I am just a partner so to speak.  I have my own company setup there, Valley Firewood.
I don't do any of the lumber making, not sure how to run the Woodmizer even. 

The bands got tossed in the scrap metal pile, not sure if the scrapper guys are working this weekend or not till Monday.
They are good blades, most have been sharpened a few times.  They are rusty a bit and we have a metric ton of them in better shape so decided to toss them.
Probably 10-12 of them.

Dunno if it's something you can use or not, but figured I'd offer.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Brandon1986 on November 29, 2014, 11:27:21 AM
Oh yeah Russ Fransic (sp?) is one of our old customers. We used to haul him saw logs all the time!  Hey if they need an extra set of hands some time in the winter let me know I would very much like to work for a mill just to learn a little better! 
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Nate379 on November 29, 2014, 01:10:32 PM
Lumber has been real slow the last year or two.

That's why I mention the market is pretty saturated.  We stay floatung by being diversified.
Title: Re: Am I crazy to try to start a mobile saw mill operation on a $4000 budget?
Post by: Meadows Miller on November 30, 2014, 02:14:42 AM
G'day

And welcome to The Forum Brandon  ;D ;D 8) 8)

By all means you can start with bugger all  ;) ;D I have had to do it afew times in my life so far infact starting all over again rite now   :o :) ::) ;) :D :D

You are on the rite track with doing sheds cabins and such Mate  ;) ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris