The Forestry Forum

We are going to have some acres logged off this winter.  Some will be selective thinning.
But will have a few spots where we want to clear out an acre or two.  All trees will be cut.
Then will need the stumps removed.  Wife wants to plant some fruit trees in a spot or two.
I will likely put in one or two additional food plots.

So, trees will be felled, limbed, landed & hauled off for timber sale, leaving stumps behind.  It would be enormously helpful if  I could get some experience based opinions on removing the stumps.  Forester is handling tree selection, so size of trees will all be of a diameter that is commercially sensible.  Trees will be primarily softwood (spruce) with occasional hardwood (maple & birch) in the mix.  The last time I did this we hired it out, but the folks had their controlled stump burning get... well... out of control.  Lost a few trees that we did not want to lose.

Am considering buying either a used excavator or dozer with low hours.  Can use either on other projects around the place and after future timber sales.

What would be the minimum sized excavator or dozer to do the job?  Am not afraid of tearing the soil up since it will be tilled, limed & leveled anyway.  Am concerned about equipment cost & maneuverability in the woods.  We are on some fairly hilly terrain in Central VT.  Also, I assume that a tracked piece of equipment is preferable to wheeled.  Was wondering about all steel tracks vs. tracks with rubber pads.   Most work to occur in winter on (hopefully) frozen ground.

Thanks...

Obviously its all going to depend on the size of the stumps, but more importantly on the area to be grubbed out.
When it comes to anything landclearing - bigger is obviously better. But you probably dont want to go buying a D9 class machine to do just a few acres either.... or hiring one in because the freight can get scary.

For just a few acres your best bet would be to hire in a 20t excavator. My experience is that a mid sized excavator will do a job like that quicker then a mid sized dozer. Shift up to a larger area though and a big dozer is going to outperform anything else doing that sort of work - it is afterall exactly what dozers were designed to do, particularly if they come with cutterbars etc.

An excavator is about the most versatile piece of earthmoving equipment available and can do most anything with varying degrees of efficiency. A dozer on the other hand is only really good at a few things, but there aint nothing can match one when its a job thats right for a dozer.

Depending it can be better to hire in the right machine for a job then own it yourself - if its not a big job that you're talking about. I have 2 dozers and a wheel loader - I hire in an excavator about half a dozen times a year to do jobs that better suit an excavator because it works out cheaper then running my own gear to do so.

Stumps can be a PIA to remove........... in a perfect world a track hoe grubbing out stumps and a dozer windrowing them is the way to clear ground (stump field or timber) A small or mid size dozer will take alot of time grubbing stumps and you will have to push more dirt. Especially if the loggers leave short stumps. If using a dozer, tall stumps are preferred. A track hoe will remove the stumps far quicker. The problem comes when you need to "carry" the material any distance. That's where the dozer comes in........ I have cleared ground with both and both simultaneously. It can be done with either, but in my humble opinion an excavator for versatility cannot be beat. I really wish I still had mine. In a stump field or rocky ground rubber is gonna wear faster and take more abuse. With a careful operator the damage and excessive wear can be minimized but steel is the way to go. Especially on hill side ground. Not that the street pads on an excavator are anything to brag about. Just my two cents....


Others mileage may vary

Tom

I am not too worried about carrying & windrowing and/or burning.  I can carry the stumps away with my tractor & grapple.
I think that the bigger issue for me is getting the stumps out of the ground.  Can this be done with a compact excavator or small dozer?
Or more accurately, can this be done relatively efficiently with a compact excavator or small dozer?  Stumps will be cut fairly low to the ground so there will not be a lot of leverage for pushing.

Thanks....

The commercial clearing I do now is doing this every day. We normally utilize a 320 or 330 CAT. We dig the roots loose with the bucket, then push the tree over rootball attached. Saw that off, and proceed as normal. Removing the limbs, debris, etc. is accomplisged with a CAT track loader.

A trackhoe is definitely the way to go...but in the old days we used a Stihl Drill and Nobels 808... every stumping day sounded like  :new_year: 

If you're thinking about carrying the stumps with your tractor then I would guess that they're not that big.  Yes, probably a midsize track hoe would to the trick easy.

A 315 Cat or 160 size excavator would work good for what you want to do. If you were going to be clearing good-sized hardwood stumps you would want a 200 size machine.  An excavator works great clearing stumps because after you dig the stump out you can shake it to help get most of the dirt out of it.

Where all all the stumps going,buried,piled up??  You can get quite a rootball with a tree 2 feet across.  I have many rocks at my place. One stump,10 rocks.  ::)  And those 10 rocks will be big ones. There will be about 100 smaller ones too.

 Like everyone has said, each machine has its good points. Depends what your budget is, there is alot of nice iron out there in the 25-40k region. I see alot of landowners go down and buy a machine thats on its last legs, planning on doing clearing work and a pond, spend 15-20k, get it home and have it need 10k in parts, or it die's completely and it goes for scrap. I would sit down and figure out if you plan on keeping the machine. We have 3 excavators and 3 dozers that we do clearing work with at home, the smaller the handier the machines. The little J is pampered and wont see tree work. Our big excavator and dozer sit 9 months out of the yr. 202 truck in NH has a pile of decent stuff up there, if you take your time a 308-311-120 sized machine will do all the work you wanna do without eating you alive for fuel or parts. Plus if you keep it you can have it moved pretty cheap, bigger machines cost 125-200 an hour around here to move.

In the end it all comes down to time and money, bigger equipment more money shorter time, smaller equipment less money longer time.



In skilled hands a 30-40k pound machine will remove stumps with ease, say a 120-140 or so,

a 160-200 sized machine 50-60k pounds it wont matter if the operator is skilled...

A dozer is fine and all but its built or pushing or pulling, little else and for it to effectively remove stumps without overburdening your patience a D6 or better is the way to go, out here if they are taken seriously as a clearing and grading company a D8 better be on the payroll.  The other problem with a dozer is they involve some more actual skill to operate effectively, excavators not so much, don't get me wrong a skilled operator in an excavator is a thing of beauty, but any one can sit down and start wigging the joy stick until they figure it out and make something look like reasonable work...

Anyway, a med sized excavator is going to be priced better and with either a small bucket or a ripper hook it will make short work of even the biggest stump.

Barring heavy iron a gas auger and a few sticks of 30% do wonders, then you just need a wheel barrow and a shovel...

 I bought a 12000 lp. Kubota grey market excavator 10 years ago. I take out more trees / stumps with the excavator than I cut down with chainsaws. It handles softwood up to 16" but hardwoods are a lot of work when they are bigger than 10" .   Dig the roots up and push the tree over  of course having a tall tree for leverage does make it easier. It also has a grading blade and a mechanical thumb.  A hydraulic thumb would be a LOT better. Brookside Equipment usually has a good supply of mini,s.  I was going to buy a cat 3.5, 8000lb. machine which I had rented but a 12000 lb. machine and up would be the way to go. Having the ability to turn around 360 degrees in the woods is very helpful. With the excavator I have turned 5000' of a very grown over old cart path into useable path {my wife calls it a Dana's highway} 8) :)

 Brookside has always treated us right, 2 trucks and 1 loader from them the last 4 yrs. Certain grey market machines are ok, but ive seen a few that you just couldnt get parts for, yanmar B50 sits down the road with pump and electrical issues, whole diff machine than a US model. Scrap.  :D 

I used to own a 20 ton 690b with a rigged hydraulic thumb.  It was pretty ideal for what you want to do.  Just rip a stump and flip it over right back in the hole.   That said, it became too big for my property at a certain point and a smaller machine might be more versatile in the long run.   Of course the screaming deals do seem to
Be on the bigger rigs and since you don't need to move it you can do like I did and sell it for what you paid for after doing a bunch of stuff that wouldn't have gotten done otherwise.

Nobody has suggested ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel to loosen them. franken-smiley

Was considering a JD 60D or 60G in the 13,000# & 53hp range.

But am confused... some posters are suggesting Cat machines greater than 100hp, others
are saying excavators in the 50hp range would work well.  In any case, I am assuming that
a hydraulic thumb is a must.

 Thumb is basically a must for stumping and tree work, stacking rock. Your talking a machine in the 70-100k + for a newer 60D-60G. Personally thats a little light. If your going to throw down that kinda scratch go buy a decent 150 Kobelco bladerunner and have the best of both worlds. You need some weight for stumping, a 60 may get a decent stump out after you fight with it, but forget carrying it or pushing it. 311-120-160 sized.

Quote from: lopet on December 02, 2014, 06:27:53 PM
If you're thinking about carrying the stumps with your tractor then I would guess that they're not that big.  Yes, probably a midsize track hoe would to the trick easy.

Tractor is a JD 5095M with pretty good carrying capacity.

My father has a 120 cat that he uses for earthwork that will pull out stumps easily I would go with something in that size range 25 to 30k pound machine. A hydraulic thumb is nice but once you get the hang of it a mechanical thumb works pretty well.

If you hold your mouth just right...you can uproot a pretty good stump with a 450B John Deer. Of course it helps if you leave the tree attached until it hits the ground.  :D



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Wfcjr- How big are these trees?  DBH?  You'd probably be better off having an excavator come in and remove the trees prior to cutting them. Even if you lose some value from damage, you'll get it back from paying for less hours on a machine not trying to dig stumps. Stumps are heavy too. Really heavy.

Quote from: NWP on December 03, 2014, 12:17:10 AM
Wfcjr- How big are these trees?  DBH?  You'd probably be better off having an excavator come in and remove the trees prior to cutting them. Even if you lose some value from damage, you'll get it back from paying for less hours on a machine not trying to dig stumps. Stumps are heavy too. Really heavy.

Foresters report gives a "Quadratic Stand Diameter" of 9.4".  But range in report is from 7"-18".  I know from walking the area that there are some trees that are larger. I am assuming that they will focus the harvest on the upper portion of the diameter range.  Stand is red spruce, white pine with some hemlock & hardwoods.   

OK,  Trying to distill the advice so far.....

I will unlikely go for a dozer since an excavator would be more handy in the long run for other tasks & projects on the property.

In terms of moving the stumps, tractor handle 3,000# and a bit more.  I am assuming that this is enough.
Please let me know if I am wrong.

Seems like several folks think that the opening bid is an excavator in the 80hp-120hp range and 25,000# to 30,000# of weight.  Two outliers... Holmes referenced a 12,000# Kubota.  I believe that Barge Monkey went as low as a 308, which is in the 55hp and 17,000-18,000# range.  But these recommendations seem to be at the lower end of the range.

I was considering something the size of a JD 60 series or Hitachi ZX60-USB, which I believe is an orange painted JD or more accurately the JD 60 is a yellow painted Hitachi.  These machines come in at 53hp and around 13,500# of weight.  I was assuming that these would have enough power & weight to do the job, would be maneuverable enough in the woods, and would be small enough that they can be stored & used on other projects.   Going up to a JD 75/85 series with similar horsepower, but more weight & more $$.

When looking at the larger excavators that others are recommending, I would not want to spend anywhere near that $$ for new.  Also, not sure that I want to take on the maintenance & upkeep associated with something that large.  Not sure I am tooled up for it.  (I certainly lack the experience.)

If I were to consider something in the 80-100hp & 25,000# - 35,000# range, what sort of hours is one looking for in terms of wear & tear?  Would assume that all things being equal, fewer hours are better, but there is a balance between price & expected life on a used car that has 10,000 miles vs a used car with 150,000 miles.  Just don't know what is reasonable for used hours on heavy machinery.

If folks really believe that 80hp-100hp and 25,000# - 35,000# is the minimum bid, it may make more sense to hire it out.

Any helpful thoughts & comments are appreciated.

Have no real world experince in this but a lot of country knowledge.

Had a guy bring his D-6 and do some land clearing for me. Very experienced in working in these mountains. Asked him ahead of time if he wanted me to cut the trees down he was going to push out. Did not want that said that he could take his blade raised up high and start to push them over and the weight of the tree helped alot. Then he would get behind the root ball and push them on out. Maybe you could work out a deal with a logger where he would then hook them and pull them to a pile, saw off the root ball, and then skid on out. Just a thought.

Second, and I do have experience in this, is when you make your clear cut areas leave just a few good trees in each acre. Maybe 5 or so depending on the size of the trees. You will find that your grass will come on better if it has a break sometimes from the hot summer sun.

Lastly, if your wanting to attract deer I would watch at Lowe's, Home Depot etc. and when they had some deals on apple trees pick up a few and plant around the edges or in the middle. Oh. And leave you a good tree for a tree stand.

A EX60 is way too small to get any real work done.  It's a fine machine for digging a trench to put in a water line or something like that but it's not heavy enough for stumping.

We run an EX200 and it's almost too small, it's about 45,000lbs.  It's not horrible, but have run into many stumps that too quite a bit of fussing to get removed.

Quote from: sawguy21 on December 02, 2014, 10:49:26 PM
Nobody has suggested ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel to loosen them. franken-smiley

The neighbors used 1/4 stick of dynamite dug in and repacked. Flipped them right out. ;D

And you don't need a 100,000K or better machine to do it. Just a drive bar, cap and a bit of fuse. ;D

Ahhh, the good old days. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on December 03, 2014, 02:27:22 PM

Quote from: sawguy21 on December 02, 2014, 10:49:26 PM
Nobody has suggested ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel to loosen them. franken-smiley

The neighbors used 1/4 stick of dynamite dug in and repacked. Flipped them right out. ;D

And you don't need a 100,000K or better machine to do it. Just a drive bar, cap and a bit of fuse. ;D

Ahhh, the good old days. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

*mesquite* I thought along the same lines. Just didn't mention it. Little dynamite and done. Lot of dynamite and be extra sure to be out of the way when they come back down.

Papaw used to tell me the story of back in the 50's when he worked in the coal mines. If you needed some dynamite just put it in your lunch pail and bring it home. They would get several guys together, take several sacks, and a little dynamite and go to the river.

Find a deep hole with some shoals below it and put most of the guys there. Throw in a little dynamite in the big hole and the guys on the shoals would have sacks of fish. Not one of the fish were wasted. They did that to feed their families.

He would tell this tale and just laugh.

Quote from: Nate379 on December 03, 2014, 01:24:21 PM
A EX60 is way too small to get any real work done.  It's a fine machine for digging a trench to put in a water line or something like that but it's not heavy enough for stumping.

We run an EX200 and it's almost too small, it's about 45,000lbs.  It's not horrible, but have run into many stumps that too quite a bit of fussing to get removed.

I agree with Nate. A 20ton excavator is as small as i would get, maybe a 16ton. But under that they are just toys. I ran a 30ton Volvo excavator for some years now.  Here some info about buying a excavator: I would not look at machines over 6000hours (around 8000-12000h some expansive repairs can come up). Check Swing bearing (very expansive), track and roller wear, pins and bushings (lots of excavator owners are pigs when it comes to pin and bushing wear, they never change a bushing and that afects the whole machine.

It might be on the smaller side for your application, but i have seen beefier ones made for bigger Bobcats or skidsteers; http://www.bobcat.com/attachments/digger (http://www.bobcat.com/attachments/digger)

It might work for your application, not sure of product rate or how many or how big your stumps are but it might be a fun attachment either way

 I will admit bigger is better when it comes to stumps. General purpose mine is a lot better than a backhoe or bull dozer.  My wish list was an EX 60 but the 308 is better.  Like shinlinger said his 20 ton unit outgrew his 40 acres.

Quote from: Holmes on December 03, 2014, 05:07:25 PM
I will admit bigger is better when it comes to stumps. General purpose mine is a lot better than a backhoe or bull dozer.  My wish list was an EX 60 but the 308 is better.  Like shinlinger said his 20 ton unit outgrew his 40 acres.

I am trying to avoid the two sins of the extremes here & find, if possible, the right size.
On the top end, I don't want a machine that is so large that it tears up portions of the woods that I don't want torn up, and/or
is not very maneuverable.  Also, don't want a machine so large that it is not adaptable or appropriate for other tasks.

At the same time I would hate to spend $$$ on a machine that is maneuverable & adaptable, but not up to the task of stumping.

The JD 60D/G or the Hitachi EX60 come in at 53hp & about 13,500.  Going up to the next level, the JD 75 & JD 85 (Hitachi X75/X85) only add about 4hp, from 53 to 57, but go up to about 18,000# in weight.  Is this still too light?  Am I looking for something that does not exist, an excavator that is heavy enough & powerful enough to stump, but is also maneuverable and adaptable to other tasks around the property that do not require a large excavator?

About 5 years ago I bought a 40,000 '84 690b with 7000 hours and tracks with less than 100 hours on them for 15k.   The thumb did not work but it didn't take a whole lot to figure it out. It was fairly tight and seemed to be reasonably cared for. I got to track around a bit and dig a hole at the sellers.   At the time I didn't know much but looking back I got lucky as it was a good machine.   If you don't know much, ask here what to look for or bring someone who knows with you.   Signs of trouble are fairly obvious IF you know what to look for.

As far as tooling up,   I bought a pneumatic grease gun to help with that and rigged up a 55 gallon drum I had kicking around with a hand crank pump to fuel it.  The handle promptly broke so I ground the shaft hex shape and ran it with a cordless drill.   Much easier than cans and cheaper than a transfer tank. 

I did tens of thousands of dollars worth of work while I had it.  Celler, driveway, septic, pond, de rocked fields, pulled logs, ripped stumps, demoed a house and barn, erected and relocated chicken sheds, split firewood, buried lines, etc while I had it.   Most of that stuff never would have been done at all if I didn't own the machine. 

I sold it to a neighbor for 12k and the condition I was able to use it the following summer for a month to clean up the little things I might have had sellers remorse over.  That worked very well for me.  He Has put in lots of wood roads on his property and it has been good for him too.   He has offered to loan it back again but I am afraid  I might break it. 

John Deere no longer has parts for these machines and the recent high scrap prices soaked up a lot of good spares.  That said, you can barely touch a used mini excavator for what I had in that 690 and even if the machine exploded, at 40,000 lbs it is still worth quite a bit in scrap assuming nothing else was salvageable.   I have seen used esco buckets going for 2 grand.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cafnNvEB5k&feature=player_detailpage              I found this interesting .Hope it is ok to post

My favorite hoe of all time for all around general use is a 490 Deere. My father in law had one (he owns an excavating business) and it was the first hoe I learned to run. Good size, but not too big. I have run Deeres, Cats, Kobelcos, and Link Belts. I have alot of time in the seat of a 308, they are a great machine, and could be used to stump with. What it boils down to is a smaller machine can do the job, albeit with a little more time and will be more versatile on a property. A bigger machine will make quick work of the stumping job and do it well. It's a trade off.

Holmes
That tooth on that Skidsteer with the thumb was a great way to go about stumps.  Granted, all stumps don't have as easy a root system as those stumps but think that size and design would work for most of them.

WFCjr, I've done something similar to what you're doing; here is what I've learned.

I use a Cat D8H with a root rake and a single shank ripper for stump removal.  The machine weighs 95,000 lbs with the ripper and the rake/13' blade.  For an 18" hardwood, usually I have to make a pass down all four sides with the ripper and then catch the stump with the root rake to pull it out.  Even then it can be some work getting an 18" stump out.  Having the ripper on the back of a D6+ sized machine is almost mandatory when it comes to larger stump removal, IMO.

If you let the stumps age a year or two they come up much easier!  Green stumps are much more work.

I've used a Cat 320 to removed stumps, and it was ok but required a lot of digging. 

For only a few trees, my preferred method is to use my backhoe to dig around the tree and then push it over.  The weight of the tree is very helpful in removing the stump.  Because we have horses here on our farm, I don't EVER leave a stump behind - they are always removed so that I don't have to worry about future holes and broken horse legs.

Hope this helps.

Scott

Another thing to consider is ease of use.   I have never run a dozer so I don't know but I have been told to do it competently and not leave a mess, you need to know what your doing.   

An excavator on the other hand has a quick learning curve.  You might not be as fast as a pro, but after a few hours of seat time you can get the machine to do what you want it to do.   Just don't start near the house and go dig a big hole to
Bury rocks or something. 

 

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22 ton works for me. ;D A smaller JD would be too much work, Go rent a big one :D :D

I've dug a lot of stumps out with a JD410 rubber tire backhoe, which the hoe on is comparable to that of a 6 ton mini excavator. I've also done a fair amount of hardwood stump removal with JD490 and JD690 excavators. Obviously, the bigger the machine the faster the stump comes out. A 6 ton mini is a very versatile unit, and will dig stumps out. It just takes longer. If I had a limited amount of clearing I wanted to do, and had other projects around the house, I would tend towards the mini. If you just want to hog the stumps out in the shortest amount of time, go big. I don't think you will like what scsmith's D8 will do to your woods- it will definitely make clearings though ;D

I've pulled down a few trees in the 18" diameter range with the 10K front winch of a deuce and a half.  Hook the cable about 20' up the tree and it pulls it down stump and all.  You don't have as much directional control as with proper sawcuts, so be careful.  And make sure the cable is longer than the tree height.

 When I was a kid I remember watching a bloke push a big old gum tree out with a dozer. I suppose I was about 6 or 7 at the time - and had enough time around dozers by that age to know that the tree was BIG and the dozer was wayyyyyyyyyyy small, can't remember what but probably an old D4 6U or something around that size.

The whole dammed dozer was disappearing out of sight below ground level in the hole he'd dug. Then her took all that dirt plus a bit more and ramped it up till he was pushing that tree about 15' above ground level. When the tree went it went quite easily though I can always remember the way he came scooting down that ramp going for all he was worth to clear the front of the machine off the rootball. Had he not cleared it there was no doubt it would have flipped that little dozer straight onto its back. All this of course took time, it must have taken the best part of a day to get that one tree on the ground.

I never have forgotten watching that tiny little dozer roll that tree over: the lesson served me well when I was contracting.
You can do a lot of big things with little equipment. And you can do those things without breaking the gear. What you can't do is do big jobs with little machines in any sort of hurry without breaking the gear.

The question is how much do you value your time? People grubbed stumps out with a pick and shovel long before the internal combustion engine. A little machine might not be more then a toy by modern standards but its better then a pick and shovel. So long as you take your time.

Quote from: MikeON on December 05, 2014, 07:39:49 AM
...and make sure the cable is longer than the tree height.

I learned that one the hard way, not to mention that it was winter time and the tree was full of snow  :snowball: 

Thanks for all the responses... went and looked at a few excavators.

Agree with the posters who said that the JD50G/Hitachi ZX50 would be too light.
Ditto for the Cat 305 & 305.5.  Have not yet looked at JD60G/ Hitachi ZX60.  But am guessing
that the may be on the light side at 13,500 pounds or so. 

On the upper end, looked at the Cat 312.  This machine just looked too big to use for other tasks around the
property.  I know, I know, the loggers here and the experienced folks who like weight and productivity believe
that 30,000#, or 15 tons is the opening bid.  No doubt that excavators 15 tons and up would be the most productive in pulling stumps, but they would be too big for some of the other jobs on the property. 

So, will likely narrow it down to the JD 75/85 class (Hitachi ZX75/ZX85), or the Cat 308.
On the lower & upper end, will still try to find a JD60 and Cat 311 to take look at.

Would be interested in anyone's experience using these particular excavators, or any similar in this size range
of about 9-10 tons.

Thanks...

Quote from: LittleJohn on December 05, 2014, 08:12:26 AM

Quote from: MikeON on December 05, 2014, 07:39:49 AM
...and make sure the cable is longer than the tree height.

I learned that one the hard way, not to mention that it was winter time and the tree was full of snow  :snowball: 

Use a snatch block, that way your not under the tree.

  Might I put my own twist on the subject..  I do this type of work for a living and when I'm not getting paid to do it I do it for 'fun' on my own property.  Back ground is such, 50 class up to 350 is used daily 'by us' for everything including yesterdays fire in Augusta.  All of them will dig a large stump.

  Excavators are cool no doubt and I disagree that it's easier to master than a dozer.  Excavators are fuel thirsty proportionate to size and regardless of size can get REALLY expensive to maintain.  I'd recommend against it unless you just have to have one because well, they are cool.

  I own a Kabota L4400 fel and 9' backhoe.  There isn't a stump on my property I cant remove and I have some monster trees.  This I can prove with my own personal stump dump.  What takes my 3 hours tractor time and my 4 wheel drive to pop out of the hole can be done in under a minute with the H350 from work.  My tractor consumes a bit over a gallon per hour working and the 350 will rock over a 100 gallons on a productive day.

  Getting a stump out is one thing, finding a home for it and its friends is another.  Got to move it and sure it can be buried but that's illegal in this state and lots more work.  On the clock we truck them home then farm out grinding when there is enough.  The finish product is used for erosion control and such.

  Leaving lots left unsaid Ill summate my opinion.  The most versatile home owner diesel tool is a loader backhoe.  You can dig, grade, lift/move, push, pull, plow snow, etc..  What may seem like a forgotten player in the dirt world came to existence for a reason.  It is the Swiss army knife of doables especially with the modern attachments and quick connects available.  I've used a case 580 whatever it is 4x with extendahoe and yard plus front bucket and rear jaw many hours in the last ten years.  Is it smooth, no.  Do I like binding it to the trailer, no.  Does it have the wow look at me factor, no.  Does it get the job done, you better believe it.  Bang for the buck It's where I opted to put my money.  If you go with a smaller 'tractor style' like I did then your door is now open to compliment your stable of excess with oh say a rotary mower, landscape rake, forks, etc..

  First post yes but have been poaching info off this site for years, thanks.  No welcomes please and I drink my whisky uncut at room temp.  Let it snow.

67x
That was a very well written "straight whiskey" summary of equipment and how to get things done.
Glad you piped up for a "shot" at this discussion.  ;D

My thought all along has been to hire someone who is in the business, getRdun, and in the end it will likely be much cheaper and the OP can get on with life.

But still, an opportunity or excuse to get equipment to own and operate if toys are on the "want" list.

Then enough of the poaching stuff already. Seems like you have a practical head. Time to pitch in on the info side. :P

And welcome anyway. :snowball: :snowball: :snowball: ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball: :snowfight1:

Quote from: beenthere on December 06, 2014, 10:27:52 AM
67x
That was a very well written "straight whiskey" summary of equipment and how to get things done.
Glad you piped up for a "shot" at this discussion.  ;D

My thought all along has been to hire someone who is in the business, getRdun, and in the end it will likely be much cheaper and the OP can get on with life.

But still, an opportunity or excuse to get equipment to own and operate if toys are on the "want" list.

Absolutely an option and one that is still on the table.  In terms of maintaining our place & managing the woodlots, we use a mix of doing it ourselves and contracting out, depending upon the task, equipment, etc.   But given some of the other work we have to do, as well as some bad experiences in the past, buying and doing it ourselves is an option we have to consider.  In terms of getting on with life... one of the things that I enjoy in life is working in the our woods & maintaining the place.  Also, in the past several years I have learned a lot from working on the place, as well as reading posts in this and other forums.  So, no matter whether we decide to buy or hire, this is part of our life.   Also, my guess is that this forum & others are fairly well divided between professionals who do this sort of work for a living, and others, like me, who do it either because it is more economical for us, or we enjoy it.  At any rate if all of us "hired someone who is in the business" for every job we needed done, this & other forums would be a lot emptier and lots of folks who enjoy working outside, would have less full lives.  So, you are absolutely right that there are times when it is better to hire out for a lot of a reasons.  There are other times when for reasons of either economy or satisfaction, it is OK to DIY.

Id like to weigh in on this. I do this for a living and I have all these options available.
I have a 220 Komatsu 57,000# and rarely use it for stumping jobs unless they are huge,its just too much for me to justify moving it.
I have a 150 komatsu 40,000# and almost always use it for stumping.mechanical thumb which I wish was hydraulic. Still takes  a semi-lowboy to move.prefer to tip trees over as opposed to pulling stumps.
Big dozer 1550 case..have used a couple times to stump on jobs that needed big areas cleared but small soft wood stumps.
Small dozer..small jobs small stumps...backhoe..same thing...mini excavator...never.

You have to accept the compromises in this
Big excavator...best for stumping but expensive to move it.expensive to own and if something breaks??
16-20 ton excavator..still need a semi/lowboy...still expensive great tool for clearing/stumping
120 size excavator...can move behind dumptruck on 20 ton tag trailer.still good with smaller stumps,practical to own..any smaller would involve a lot of time digging out every stumps and you might as well go to a backhoe which is much more versatile.
Big Dozer....you better have deep pockets..and something smaller to clean up...small dozer....are you in clay ground at all? that would make you wish you never tried it.same with very rocky ground.
I agree with the other guy that posted about a backhoe..just realize your not pulling them out,your digging them out,move them away,clean up the holes..and all the other thing you can do with it around your place? cheaper to own,drive it down the road.
should be a lot out there for sale, I know the compact track loader/mini excavator combo is hurting the backhoe market pretty bad and they are going for fair prices.
resale...every farmer/landowner/contractor/you name it would like one..easy guaranteed money back on resale..a thousand people are buyers for a backhoe for every one buyer for a big excavator or dozer.
If its one machine..I say a backhoe and for the prices for a nice excavator of good size I believe you could get a good used backhoe and small dozer and if you could use them both in the applications more practical for each machine...that I believe would be the least of all compromises..

Quote from: BEEMERS on December 06, 2014, 12:18:40 PM
Id like to weigh in on this. I do this for a living and I have all these options available....

Small dozer..small jobs small stumps...backhoe..same thing...mini excavator...never.

You have to accept the compromises in this
Big excavator...best for stumping but expensive to move it.expensive to own and if something breaks??
16-20 ton excavator..still need a semi/lowboy...still expensive great tool for clearing/stumping
120 size excavator...can move behind dumptruck on 20 ton tag trailer.still good with smaller stumps,practical to own..any smaller would involve a lot of time digging out every stumps and you might as well go to a backhoe which is much more versatile.

I agree with the other guy that posted about a backhoe..just realize your not pulling them out,your digging them out,move them away,clean up the holes..and all the other thing you can do with it around your place? cheaper to own,drive it down the road.
should be a lot out there for sale, I know the compact track loader/mini excavator combo is hurting the backhoe market pretty bad and they are going for fair prices.
resale...every farmer/landowner/contractor/you name it would like one..easy guaranteed money back on resale..a thousand people are buyers for a backhoe for every one buyer for a big excavator or dozer.
If its one machine..I say a backhoe and for the prices for a nice excavator of good size I believe you could get a good used backhoe and small dozer and if you could use them both in the applications more practical for each machine...that I believe would be the least of all compromises..

Thanks for the response.... lots to consider.

I have a JD5095M with a bucket, also a grapple.  Was planning on using that to move the stumps. 
Plenty of room to either pile the stumps or burn them. 

For the rest of my questions, I am not challenging folks, I am just asking questions to try to understand.  Please
look at them as questions, not challenges.

With regard to the backhoe.... I am a bit confused by some of the advice on the forum.  Some folks say that
a 30,000# excavator is opening bid... Yet the other poster who weighed in on the Kubota L4400, with FEL & backhoe... If I am not mistaken that tractor weighs a fraction of what the excavator weighs, or even what my JD tractor weighs. Ditto on the power. 

When you look at a JD 410, that loader backhoe is in the 20,000# range.  Just a tad heavier than a Cat 308.  A bunch lighter than a Cat 311.  So I am a bit puzzled at the recommendation on a backhoe, but against
smaller excavator.  (not challenging, just trying to understand_

I appreciate the counsel on the small dozer/backhoe combination.  It may be spot on.  But I would rather add one piece of equipment to the fleet rather than two... maintenance, storage, etc.  But still something to consider.

an excavator in the 120 and up size whips a backhoe for stumping..hands down not even a challenge.But weigh out what else you can do with it.It doesn't sound like you have really big stumps..if its a big job, which big means different things to different people..definitely excavator work.
BUT..when the stumpings done..what else will you do with it?
What else would you do with a backhoe?
67x said its the swiss army knife of equipment.If you want one piece to do it all...and many other things for many years I recommend it...and this is coming from a guy that HATES stumping wih a backhoe.

You asked about the cat 308 class. All I can say is run one and compare it to others in the same class.
I have always thought the Cat hyd were weak and slow on the 308/312 when compare to the competition.

A few weeks ago I got logs from a lot clearing.  The trees were 12 to 30 inch diameter.  He cleared and removed all the stumps from a half acre lot with rubber tired backhoe in less than two days.  The backhoe had a clam shell grapple bucket which he used to load tree tops and brush..  Heavy equipment is nice to have, but expensive to maintain and repair.  I personally would rather hire a contractor, than to own a big piece of equipment.     

Quote from: BEEMERS on December 06, 2014, 01:03:04 PM

BUT..when the stumpings done..what else will you do with it?
What else would you do with a backhoe?

We always seem to have something around here that requires dirt work.   Have several old logging trails on the property that would benefit from culverts over small & intermittent streams.  Have three ponds that require maintenance.  One needs "fixing", another one could use an expansion.  Have several food plots in the woods that
I have to use perimeter roads to access.  With a few well-placed culverts I could shut down some "highways" that folks use to poach & access them internally.  Have at least two dry wells to put in for drainage purposes. 

Am hiring someone a few times a year to remove isolated trees from our fields when they die or blow down...

Place is big enough and we have enough going on to keep busy.  It would not collect dust.  If we ran out of projects, can always sell.  We try to maintain our equipment very well.

 wfcjr   I think we are in the same boat and want to do the same type of projects. I would like a bigger excavator but I have what I have.  It is just plain handy. I was going to buy a back hoe for my property  but when I rented an excavator and found the 360 turning capabilities saved so much moving around compared to a back hoe.  10 years later I still hop on the excavator, rebuild stone walls, move dirt, push over trees, remove stumps, build bridges, hoist things up and down, rebuild box culverts, load the dump truck without tapping the side of the truck  ;). It has been great for digging footing holes and setting poles.  I may not use it for a few months then its back in use weekly. I have thought of selling it but still have to much work for it to do. 8)

"With regard to the backhoe.... I am a bit confused by some of the advice on the forum.  Some folks say that
a 30,000# excavator is opening bid... Yet the other poster who weighed in on the Kubota L4400, with FEL & backhoe... If I am not mistaken that tractor weighs a fraction of what the excavator weighs, or even what my JD tractor weighs. Ditto on the power. 

When you look at a JD 410, that loader backhoe is in the 20,000# range.  Just a tad heavier than a Cat 308.  A bunch lighter than a Cat 311.  So I am a bit puzzled at the recommendation on a backhoe, but against
smaller excavator.  (not challenging, just trying to understand_"
   

     Wfcjr, that's what was trying to get to in my post- a 5 ton mini-x I ran had the same size hoe as my grandad's 10 ton 410b backhoe. As someone else pointed out, with a smaller machine you are digging the stumps out, not pulling them. It takes a 30 ton class machine to just pluck stumps, I don't think you want something that size driving around your forest.

      Having used all of this equipment, if it were me, I would want an 8 ton mini-x and a good sized skid steer to go with it. (If I could have both ;)) An 8 ton, or even 6 ton will out dig any rubber tire hoe. If I could have only one, a rubber tire hoe is very versatile.

Well said Barbender "If you could have only one". That's my point.
Also how much are you willing to spend? The backhoe may be the most practical from an expense standpoint.If price is of no concern get the biggest mini excavator you can get with rubber tracks and a 100 horse rubber track loader.
Also when we are all comparing equipment keep in mind we cant compare an old worn out backhoe against a new mini.
Also we cant be comparing a new 100 plus horsepower backhoe against a mini you could drive in the back of a pickup truck
When Im saying backhoe,mines a newer 580 Super M wide track at 98 horsepower its a heck of a machine.I guess that's whats in my mind when I say a backhoe..I can imagine others experiences with backhoes could be better...but many may have had experience with something 40 years old and power about 40% of what Im talking about.If that's what your picturing I can see why its not a practical picture.
And guys who have experience with mini evcavators may have been on  a new one...and believe me they are very quick and very powerful and so  easy to operate.
I have a buddy who sold his backhoe and got a mini and he will never go back,he loves it....BUT...he also has a rubber track loader paired with it and the promise that he can borrow my backhoe when ever he needs it...that being said...he borrows it a few times a year..that should tell you something.

Quote from: barbender on December 06, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
      Having used all of this equipment, if it were me, I would want an 8 ton mini-x and a good sized skid steer to go with it. (If I could have both ;)) An 8 ton, or even 6 ton will out dig any rubber tire hoe. If I could have only one, a rubber tire hoe is very versatile.

Having looked at a range of equipment and attempting to digest the info on the forum, am leaning toward the 8 ton - 10 ton range.  I think that it will be acceptable productivity and not oversized.  But may take the advice given to rent both, but 8 tons on the bottom end, not 5 or 6.

Current workhorse is a JD5095M tractor.  Attachments include an FEL & bucket, so if I were to get a backhoe would have some duplication.   

Why the skid steer??

Renting is not a bad option at all. You can try more than one machine and decide if you really want to buy after all.

Quote from: LeeB on December 06, 2014, 05:19:54 PM
Renting is not a bad option at all. You can try more than one machine and decide if you really want to buy after all.

Agreed, as another poster suggested, may rent one in the 8 ton - 10 ton range, and another in the 30,000# range & compare
size & suitability.

Why not consider a stump grinder, you could get a pretty good used stump grinder for a lot less than most if not all of the equipment that has been mentioned.  I have an 850 C Case dozer and a 580 k Case backhoe....and a bunch of stumps that could stand to be removed that are just rotting in the pasture.  Makes too much of a mess to dig them out...I just bushhog around them,  if I wanted them out with out all the mess a stump grinder would be the way to go.  But it will only grind stumps, and they can be expensive to keep up.  Banjo

Quote from: Banjo picker on December 06, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Why not consider a stump grinder, you could get a pretty good used stump grinder for a lot less than most if not all of the equipment that has been mentioned. 

You are correct on cost & have considered.  But in some of these spots, the ones we will clear, I will be putting in food plots.  I generally plow, then have to remove rocks, disk, add lime etc.  So preference is to remove stump, backfill & rough grade.

With grinding, it does not remove the stump low enough to avoid catching the plow.  Also, if I grind stumps in the woods, when the remainder rots will leave a sinkhole or soft spot.  I know it will take some time, but I don't want to be in the woods 10 years from now & flip my tractor because a wheel fell into an old stump hole.

I have about 8 acres of cedar stumps 8" to 15" in diameter that are all about 16" tall. The stumps are pretty close together and there's s a few hundred of them. There's also some small maple trees and brush in the fields. I was going to rent a cat 953 highlift, roll the teeth over a Little,raise the bucket up a little and blow through them.. I never thought of trying to finesse them out with a mini ex..

Quote from: wfcjr on December 06, 2014, 07:06:52 PM
 

With grinding, it does not remove the stump low enough to avoid catching the plow.  Also, if I grind stumps in the woods, when the remainder rots will leave a sinkhole or soft spot.  I know it will take some time, but I don't want to be in the woods 10 years from now & flip my tractor because a wheel fell into an old stump hole.
[/quote]
This is not true. It all depends on the type of machine and operator. I have a lot of experience in this area and have ground thousands of stumps over the years. My machine would grind 24 inches below grade which is plenty deep enough to get 99% of the stump out. What little that is left will not leave any type of sink hole that could be a problem.

Quote from: bill m on December 07, 2014, 08:46:33 AM

Quote from: wfcjr on December 06, 2014, 07:06:52 PM
 

With grinding, it does not remove the stump low enough to avoid catching the plow.  Also, if I grind stumps in the woods, when the remainder rots will leave a sinkhole or soft spot.  I know it will take some time, but I don't want to be in the woods 10 years from now & flip my tractor because a wheel fell into an old stump hole.

This is not true. It all depends on the type of machine and operator. I have a lot of experience in this area and have ground thousands of stumps over the years. My machine would grind 24 inches below grade which is plenty deep enough to get 99% of the stump out. What little that is left will not leave any type of sink hole that could be a problem.
[/quote]

OK, always happy to learn.  What is the grind vs. dig/pull time?  I am guessing it is a pretty big stump grinder to get 24" below grade.  Is is a stand-alone or a 3pt hitch/PTO model?  How big of a stump can it handle?  Is it practical to use in grinding an acre or two of stumps left by logging in the woods?

I am all ears... thanks,

All those questions are depending on the size of the equipment involved.  A large (stand alone) grinder will get the stump out quicker than a small excavator or a back hoe.  & vice versa..  The grinder I have run is an attachment that goes on a skid steer.  (bobcat).  It will go pretty deep, just how much time do you want to spend.  All we want to do is mow over it. Banjo

I'll weigh in just because the stump grinder idea came up.

With a PTO powered stumpgrinder, on your 5095M, you would be amazed at how fast you can grind an "average" sized stump.  I have 39 hp at my PTO, and I can grind a large stump faster than I can dig it out with my JD 410 backhoe, and leave a lot less of a mess doing it. 

My stumpgrinder (by spec) can grind 12" below the ground, but that is assuming the grinder is level on the 3 point hitch, so if you have a hydraulic top link, or just extend your top link, you can get lower than that, not 24", but still lower.  However, if you truly need to get over a foot below the ground on every single stump, this may not be a good option. 

With the 85 hp that you have available at the PTO, you would absolutely demolish stumps.  You can pick up a brand new Shaver SC50 Stumpgrinder which is the model I have, for 7k brand new.  You can't even touch a large piece of machinery for that, nor a large stumpgrinder with dedicated engine (if comparing new price to new price). 

However, a stumpgrinder is only good at one thing, then it sits.  The beauty of the PTO grinder, is it can sit for 2 years, you hook it up, burn the rust off the slip clutch, and it's ready to roll and grind through another hundred stumps. 

It seems you are pretty well set on buying the excavator, and that's a great option.  Not to mention, a whole lot more fun than a stumpgrinder.  If money were no object, I would have one as well, but I'd still have my stumpgrinder.

The only problem I see, and the reason I wouldn't 100% recommend the stump grinder, is that you need to grind the stumps fairly far down.  You can certainly do this, but it becomes sort of tedious when you need to grind many stumps, very deep. 

I completely agree that you have no use for a backhoe, and I wouldn't even consider one in your situation. 



By the way, not sure how far you are from me, but if your interested, you are more than welcome to try out my stumpgrinder on your tractor.  I think you'd be impressed.....
What do you have to lose?

Don't know if a link to Facebook works, but this thing was in my feed this am.  https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=857454940941867&id=100000321075903
If the link doesn't work, It is a massive European PTO post hole digger with wings that drills down into the top of the stump, basically eradicating it.  While it does go down below 2ft rather easily, it is on a 100+ hp tractor and I'm sure really expensive if you could even get one. 

A low cost route would be to drill the stump with an auger bit and keep the holes topped up with diesel for a few weeks and then place a metal barrel or trash can with no bottom over the stump, fill with kindling and light a fire.   

I appreciate neither of these options really pertain to the OP but just throwing them out there. 

Piston & Shinnlinger,

Your comments are well taken.  I have seen some of those auger/shavers.  Most recently I think that I saw one advertised in Northern Woodlands.  Will look into it. 

Ditto on the PTO stump grinder.  I can see how they would work very well in clearing a few stumps out of an otherwise open field.  Does anyone have any experience using them for stump work in an acre or two of woods/forests that we want to turn into fields?   

Piston, your offer to check out your grinder is very generous.  I live in NH, but work in Western Mass sometimes out in the Lennox/Pittsfield area.  I am guessing 2 hours or so.

Am not wedded to an excavator.  Just trying to figure out the combination of cost effectiveness, time effectiveness and future utility of whatever route we go... including hiring it out.

Quote from: wfcjr on December 09, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
Ditto on the PTO stump grinder.  I can see how they would work very well in clearing a few stumps out of an otherwise open field.  Does anyone have any experience using them for stump work in an acre or two of woods/forests that we want to turn into fields?   

As a matter of fact, the PTO stumpgrinder doesn't really excel at a few stumps here and there, in open land.  A field, sure, but anything that is sensitive to the heavy weight of a tractor, and the aggressive tread of tractor tires, is better off left to a dedicated stumpgrinder with low weight/impact to the soil.  It also takes longer to get the tractor, hook up the grinder, disconnect the grinder, put the tractor away, than it does to grind a couple stumps. 

Where the PTO stumpgrinder excels, is in exactly what your talking about.  It is excellent for grinding stumps quickly, when you have many of them, in a woods environment.  A small stump (say less than 14" or so at the ground) is almost a non event, it will take about 3-10 minutes to grind.  Then simply lift the 3 point hitch, move over/back up to the next stump, drop it, and grind away again.  I don't even disengage the PTO when moving short distances (I do throttle down however.)

A larger stump, will take considerably longer.  I ground this white oak stump that had been dead for 2-3 years, and it took me close to 45 mins (I don't remember exactly) to grind it down, and I only went about 4-6" below the surface.  Keep in mind, that's with 39 pto hp.   ;)
The saw is my MS361 with 25" bar.  I trimmed the stump down as much as possible before grinding it.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17127/IMG_49865B15D.JPG) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17127/IMG_49885B15D.JPG) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17127/IMG_49905B15D.JPG) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17127/IMG_49945B15D.JPG) 



You can see what I mean in this pic, regarding how tedious it would be to consistently grind 12" or more below the surface.  The tip of the grinding wheel will go that deep, and then some, but of course since it's a circle, you'll have to make sure to hit every spot of the stump with the deepest part of the wheel, which would require a LOT of small movements with the tractor.  (does that make any sense? ::))
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17127/solar_010.jpg)

The time it will take to grind down an acre or two of stumps, is unfortunately, impossible to answer (you knew that was coming right  :D)  If you have large trees, with huge stumps, and a lot of them, then it will take a LONG time.  But if you have a mix of small, medium, and large (sort of relative terms  ::)) stumps, then you'll be very surprised how much work you can do. 

The beauty of the grinder, is you grind the stump, feather out the dirt/chips left behind with the bucket or grapple (I almost always have my grapple on so I "backblade" with the heal of the grapple) and your pretty much done, not much cleanup (actually, no cleanup). 

I don't want to go on and on about how great a stumpgrinder is (although I would certainly love to  ;D) because just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will be best for you.  If you really need to get that deep on every stump, I do think your better off with an excavator, and completely rip them out of the ground, then bring in heavy equipment to smooth everything out, and clean up your mess with your tractor/disc/grapple. 

Again, the grinder "can" get deep enough, but once the stumps flare out, and roots go every which way, you find yourself chasing the roots all over the place, and moving the tractor around every which way to get them.  It's exponential how much more you need to grind for every couple of inches you go down, depending on the species. 

If you can deal with only a foot below the surface (which if your regrading the area, you may not be able to) then it's a good idea to look into the grinder.  I like that your keeping an open mind about your options and not dead set on something before you even have any info on it, that is respectable. 

Since you really need to remove the stumps, and your not concerned with making a mess and leveling the area, then I think your on the right track with the excavator.  I just wanted to mention the stumpgrinder in case it was something that may work for you. 

With any small trees, I simply knock them over and uproot them altogether and carry them away with the grapple.  Medium trees, I'll almost always cut and grind, but if I don't mind making a mess, I'll knock the tree over.  For large stumps, I always grind.  Like I mentioned, I can grind down a large stump quicker than I can dig it out with the 410.  However, if I didn't mind making a mess, and I happened to have a 50 thousand pound excavator sitting next to me, I may just find myself digging out a stump.   ;D  (Then again, if I had 85 hp at my PTO, I doubt it)

Quote from: wfcjr on December 09, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
Piston, your offer to check out your grinder is very generous.  I live in NH, but work in Western Mass sometimes out in the Lennox/Pittsfield area.  I am guessing 2 hours or so.

Am not wedded to an excavator.  Just trying to figure out the combination of cost effectiveness, time effectiveness and future utility of whatever route we go... including hiring it out.

If you would really like to try out the stumpgrinder, the offer is on the table.  Shoot me a PM and we can figure out a time you could pick it up.  Likewise, if your ever in my area, I could always demonstrate it on my tractor just so you get the idea of how well/bad it works for your situation.  I have a never ending supply of stumps  ;D


The only way you'll know the "best" way to clear all the stumps, is by doing it multiple ways, finishing the job, looking back, and then deciding....
EXPERIENCE- It's what we have right after we needed it  ;)

Forgot to ask (maybe you've already told us) but do you have an "average" size stump figure?  What are the majority of them? 

Pictures would also help.

Been sitting on the sideline for a while,i grind stumps,the two grinders i have are Carltons SP4012 and SP7015 33hp& 60 hp turbo diesels,self propelled wireless remote controls and Sandvic cutting wheels .The stump that Piston shows is about 20 mins work with my big grinder,i would first make a pass and grind it ground level then second pass could go down 15" if customer wanted it and ground would allow it[Rocks],thats the enemy of a stump grinder.As piston said chasing exposed flair roots can be time consuming.You have to consider you will hit rocks in N.H. just like i do in MA.,which will dull the teeth on the grinder.The grinder will grind the stumps,but your still going to have to deal with rocks. In my area usually can't compete in a quote to clear acreage against an exavator,for he can clear land,i can only grind stumps.A good used self propelled medium [60 HP] grinder will cost excess of 25K and you have teeth and teeth pockets to deal with.I would suggest rent a exavator with a skilled operator probably be a couple days work.You can buy a small machine to do small work at a later date.I would personally put the stumps thru a tub grinder rather than bury then,if you bury them you will get sink holes in about 10 years [ my personal experence.

Quote from: s grinder on December 10, 2014, 05:18:04 PM
Been sitting on the sideline for a while,i grind stumps,the two grinders i have are Carltons SP4012 and SP7015 33hp& 60 hp turbo diesels,self propelled wireless remote controls and Sandvic cutting wheels .I would personally put the stumps thru a tub grinder rather than bury then,if you bury them you will get sink holes in about 10 years [ my personal experence.

Thanks for the post & the info.  I am assuming that your Sandvik wheels have carbide cutting teeth or inserts.
The carbide is very hard and will cut/grind very well, but won't like the rocks very much.

Wat is a "tub grinder"  I have never heard of one.

Thanks,....

tub grinder (http://www.morbark.com/equipment-line/tub-grinders/)

Whoa.....

Just looked at the pricetag on those .....

Also, gotta grind a lot of stumps to need one of these guys.

Get all the dirt knocked off of the stumps with the excavator, then pile them up an burn them.

That would work,even if you left them small piles ,nice winter project if locals will allow it,sometime they'll burn for days

People that clear land, some have tub grinders,maybe you tie up a deal

Thanks for chiming in S Grinder, that's some good info that you posted!

  I'm guessing that it might depend on soil type but a dozen or so years ago at the advice of a local that did excavating I dug a few 24+" oak stumps with a back hoe and after getting the root ball out I dug about 4' deeper then put the root ball back in upside down and then buried. I was told if you have 3' of dirt on top it won't rot, so far no sink holes.

I mentioned this before but I never saw if you had a reason to not do this. Take the trees down whole in the 2 acre area you want clear cut.  Why mess with stumps if you don't have to?  No reason to make it harder than it needs to be. Then you could grind the remaining stumps that are here and there if you wanted.

Quote from: NWP on December 10, 2014, 09:59:52 PM
I mentioned this before but I never saw if you had a reason to not do this. Take the trees down whole in the 2 acre area you want clear cut.  Why mess with stumps if you don't have to?  No reason to make it harder than it needs to be. Then you could grind the remaining stumps that are here and there if you wanted.

We are having some logging done this winter.  Some will be patch thinning, but we will cut & clear a few acres as well.  The logger is felling, limbing, skidding out, landing & coordinating the timber sale.

QuoteTake the trees down whole in the 2 acre area you want clear cut.  Why mess with stumps if you don't have to?  No reason to make it harder than it needs to be.

Seems the best overall plan to me too, and the cheapest/easiest to get to the goal of some cleared land. Rescue the logs from the trees before things get pushed into piles. Bring tree down with root ball attached, cut out the logs, and deal with the rest easy with the Deere.

I agree, that's the easiest way but that takes away his main reason for getting the new excavator ;)

Quote from: barbender on December 10, 2014, 10:34:27 PM
I agree, that's the easiest way but that takes away his main reason for getting the new excavator ;)

He could take the trees down with the new excavator.

Quote from: wfcjr on December 10, 2014, 10:04:21 PM
We are having some logging done this winter.  Some will be patch thinning, but we will cut & clear a few acres as well.  The logger is felling, limbing, skidding out, landing & coordinating the timber sale.

Sounds to me like the logger is taking the trees down, not the landowner.   ???

Quote from: Piston on December 10, 2014, 10:58:50 PM

Quote from: wfcjr on December 10, 2014, 10:04:21 PM
We are having some logging done this winter.  Some will be patch thinning, but we will cut & clear a few acres as well.  The logger is felling, limbing, skidding out, landing & coordinating the timber sale.

Sounds to me like the logger is taking the trees down, not the landowner.   ???

Correct.... While I love to spend time in our woods, there are limits.
Firewood, I can fell, limb & skid out...weekend work.  Larger projects...and logs to the mill... the forester & logger take over.

Taking trees down stumps and all sounds like the easy but it isn,t! i had to cut a bunch of blowdown years ago after a microburst touched down in Waterville,  and every tree that was blown over had dirt thrown up onto the log. This required a lot of filing saw chains on my part , and grumbling ! ;D

Quote from: loggah on December 11, 2014, 07:28:07 AM
Taking trees down stumps and all sounds like the easy but it isn,t! i had to cut a bunch of blowdown years ago after a microburst touched down in Waterville,  and every tree that was blown over had dirt thrown up onto the log. This required a lot of filing saw chains on my part , and grumbling ! ;D

It is definitely hard work that requires skill & experience to do properly.  That is why I leave the major falling to the loggers.

With regard to pushing trees over, roots, stumps, etc..

At our place most of the forestry work is done in the winter when the ground is frozen and firm.   Pushing the trees over rather than felling them complicates things a bit.  In winter the soil (and any attached rocks) are frozen.  This makes it more difficult to shake the dirt from the root ball.  Another reason why we prefer felling & stumping to pushing over.

All the other posters certainly have a valid point.  At the same time the technique has to be considered with in the context of the clearing goals, seasons, etc.

Thanks....

OK,

Went and played with a couple of machines on the dealers' lots.

Am now convinced of the wisdom of the posters who recommended against the mini-excavators.
Agree that the machines at 8 tons & below would be too light.  There appeared to be a world of difference between
excavators in the Cat 308/JD75/85 range vs those in the 13-14 ton range.

Am looking strongly at Cat 314 & JD 135.  Both machines are in the 13-14 metric ton range...  32,000# to 33,000#.
Both machines have a reduced tail swing.  I like this feature because machine will be more maneuverable and as a rank
newbie, I may be less likely to tear up the tail by banging it into trees if it pretty much (all but 8") fits between the tracks.

Also, after digging stumps we will have plenty of projects for it... at least for a few years.   

Three questions....

Am I still too light?

How useful are excavators in re-habbing old logging trails & putting new ones in?

Are there any mods available for triple semi-grouser tracks to help with traction on packed snow & ice?  (should this question be in a separate thread?)

Thanks,,,,,

I think that size will be ok, as you dont want to go any bigger. the short tail is a very good feature for you.
Buy a quick coupler! I would never buy an excavator without one.

As for making trails and i have experience with excavators: you have to be a good operator to make nice trails in a   reasonable time. A tilt bucket would be almost a must for this work and they are not very common in the states.
Here is a vid from a tilt bucket, seems to be about same size machine as those you are looking for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDvvBxMhLbg

A 135 is a real nice machine. What you need all boils down to what you are going to use it for the most. 

     If you go through and grub your trails out with the hoe, and smooth the stump holes out a reasonable amount, you should be able to take your tractor and box blade and put the final touch on. We used to do a lot of trail building like this with an excavator followed by a skid steer or CTL. The hoe pops the stumps and fills the holes, the skid steer smoothed things out. You can smooth things out with an excavator but you waste a lot of time.

Update...

First, hearty thanks to all of the folks here, with much more experience than I have, who chimed in on this thread.   The input was valuable and caused me to think about the size and the uses for equipment.

Ended up getting a Volvo ECR145 DL.  Machine is a tad over 35,000 pounds and 113hp.  It is a zero clearance/reduced tail swing model (max overhang is 6"). Came equipped with a dozer blade.  Got it with a trenching bucket as well as a tilt finish bucket and hydraulic thumb.
Also had installed on the tracks, things called Montana Track Claws.  These are V shaped bars that are bolted through the track clean-out holes.  The provide great traction in both ice and mud.  When delivered, they had to walk the machine up the last mile of road and then up our gravel drive.  Was all ice and snow at the time.  Technician and salesman both said that the excavator would never have made it up the icy hill without the Track Claws.

Only saw limited service this winter due to cold, snow cover, and other extenuating circumstances (great ski season).  However in the last couple of weeks (really weekends) have installed a couple of culverts and taken out several good sized stumps, both hardwood and softwood.  Very confident based on stability and use so far that it will do well with even larger stumps in our woods.   So far stump pulling/digging has been limited to trees that we have taken out of some of the fields.  I want to get more familiar with the machine before maneuvering in the woods. 

I think that this size machine, as equipped will be darn near perfect for maintenance around the property as well as clearing stumps and forestry work for cleaning up large cuts that we will turn into fields.  Will also be enormously helpful in cleaning up some old logging roads that have fallen into disuse, and for ongoing maintenance of same.   

Thanks to the much more experienced folks who chimed in on the original post.  It caused me to look hard at use & application.  Prevented me from getting a machine that would likely have been too small.  While some probably think that even the Volvo 145 (think Cat 315/314) is too small, I think that it has all the power that we will need and it is in a package that we will be able to operate more nimbly and safely in the woods. 

Thanks again for the input.

Congratulations! you chosed the best excavator brand there is (i own a Volvo EC290) ;)

We want pictures, need to see those claws

Quote from: teakwood on April 26, 2015, 08:13:46 AM
Congratulations! you chosed the best excavator brand there is (i own a Volvo EC290) ;)

We want pictures, need to see those claws

Here is a quick pick.
Will try to get a better pic of the track claws.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34923/IMG_0387.JPG)

Nice machine
You can also load out logs with the hydraulic thumb option
Al

Nice !!
Where are you in NH / VT ?
Jim/Bruno

That'll be fun to run.. you can tear stuff up good now.  Nice.

That is a REALLY nice machine  8)

Quote from: wfcjr on December 02, 2014, 11:02:27 PM
Was considering a JD 60D or 60G in the 13,000# & 53hp range.

But am confused... some posters are suggesting Cat machines greater than 100hp, others
are saying excavators in the 50hp range would work well.  In any case, I am assuming that
a hydraulic thumb is a must.

We have a JD 60 at work, and it can do a suprising amount of work.  It is our bread and butter machine.  We have 4- 15-20 ton excavators, but of them all, this little mini stays the busiest.  We just tow it with our F-550 and most jobs with it are a day or less, sometimes longer.  Here's a picture of it doing a wheelie tackling a large stump on fairly steep ground. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/IMG_0837.JPG)

Quote from: wfcjr on December 02, 2014, 11:02:27 PM
Was considering a JD 60D or 60G in the 13,000# & 53hp range.

But am confused... some posters are suggesting Cat machines greater than 100hp, others
are saying excavators in the 50hp range would work well.  In any case, I am assuming that
a hydraulic thumb is a must.

Just my two cents worth...

It is hard to give advice without knowing the size of your stumps.  If they are fresh and from 24 in. Diameter trees, you need a big machine.  If they are apple trees you can push them out with your farm tractor. 

I purchased an 8000 lb mini excavator in 2010 and now dont know how i ever got by without it all these years.  It will do a lot, but big, fresh stumps are a challenge.  My suggestion: hire out your stumping then purchase a small excavator to use for years.  You wont regret it.

Somewhere i read that the largest component of maintenance costs for an excavator is in the undercarriage.  For a mini, rubber tracks are the way to go.  Much easier to maintain yourself.  Just to give you some ideas of scale, a new set of rubber tracks for my machine cost $1600 for the pair (and weighed 700 lbs!). Replacement track drive motors are in the range of $2500-3000 each.  Considering some of the repair costs you could run into on a used machine, you could hire out lots of stumping.

I have also heard good things about Brookside.

wfcjr, that is one sweet machine!

So....are you going to tell us what it cost???

So.......Are you going to post more pictures of it in operation?   ;D

Quote from: Piston on May 18, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
So.......Are you going to post more pictures of it in operation?   ;D

Will do in a few weeks.  Right now, trying to get my deer fields planted, help with the wife's garden and
get a bee hive established.

Also waiting on a stump ripper attachment.   Once that is in, will have the trenching bucket, finish bucket with hydraulic tilt and the stump ripper.  Should be all set, except for that one little thing called "experience".  Definitely need to grow into this suit.  Lots of learning to do.

Yes lots of learning but it is fun.  My brother called running an excavator Addictive.  :)

Quote from: Holmes on May 18, 2015, 04:08:14 PM
Yes lots of learning but it is fun.  My brother called running an excavator Addictive.  :)

I think I would agree with him if I had one as well, I dream of a mini or mid sized excavator someday!

Crikey. Clearing stumps? You are just a harvesting/processing head and log trailer away from  your own CTL operation with that thing.

Hmmm, I can't seem to find the jealous/drooling smiley.

Quote from: KiwiBro on May 19, 2015, 04:57:34 AM
Crikey. Clearing stumps? You are just a harvesting/processing head and log trailer away from  your own CTL operation with that thing.

Hmmm, I can't seem to find the jealous/drooling smiley.

     I was thinking the same thing, don't give him any ideas :)

Quote from: KiwiBro on May 19, 2015, 04:57:34 AM
Crikey. Clearing stumps? You are just a harvesting/processing head and log trailer away from  your own CTL operation with that thing.

No won't happen.  But there is a dozer on the way too....

Best way to clear stumps is with a front end loader or a track hoe.. I like the front end loader.. simply cut around the stump amd pop it up.. leave it in the sun for a week.. that let's the dirt dry after you have them all up cut you a BIG hole where you plan on burning them.. after they dry as you push them to the burn pile the dried dirt falls off.. burn them simply use the bucket to clear the ashes and cover them up.. been doing it that way for YEARS... no matter how big they're.. or how little.. a front end loader does the trick

Hillbilly_89,welcome to the forum.
Must not have many rocks where you are.  :)  I dig out one stump,I found 1-2 big rocks and about 20-30 smaller ones. The 1-2 are usually at least 3 feet across and then sometimes even bigger. Than I have to fill the hole in with dirt, and then found more rocks digging dirt for a stump hole.

Oh ya no doubt do the rocks the same with the bucket.. if you're using the hoe we smash them with the buckets

Just got this stump ripper in.  Some folks had suggested that a ripper would be more effective in cutting roots, pulling stumps and put less pressure on the dipper than when stumping with a bucket.

Salesman who helped me with the excavator was able to get it made at Craig.
They offer a standard single tine ripper, but I wanted a double tine ripper.  Figured that the double tines would be handier when trying to pick up stumps.... particularly when paired with hydraulic thumb.   Steel on tines is 1 1/4" thick...very stout.  Front edges of tines are beveled. Total length is just over 44".  Was made so that the two tines will fit with our hydraulic thumb.  Hydraulic thumb has 3 tines.  Middle tine on thumb will fit in between tines of ripper.  Ripper tines will fit inside of outer thumb tines.  Have not used it yet, but will report when I do. 



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34923/RipperLongView.jpg) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34923/RipperSideView.jpg)

It might not necessarily be the best way, but a few pounds of tannerite and a .243 did a fine job on a couple stumps I had a vendetta against a few weeks ago...

wfcjr
That looks like it will do a great job for you. Like how it can be used to pry out a stump, much like the leverage of a claw hammer to extract a nail.   

Look forward to some good pics and a video or two of it in action.

Awesome looks good. 

It seems some of you guys were mentioning very large equipment for stumps.. I haven't found a stump yet that my 580sk couldn't remove in a timely matter most stumps it's about 5 scoops then you can pop them out. I wouldn't really want anything smaller than the 580sk though. I had a l2500 kubota with a 7.5' 3pt backhoe.  I had birch? Stump that had 2 trees about 18" in diameter coming out of it. It was about 18hrs of digging and then the stump with root ball was heavier than the tractor could even move.  The stump was heavy enough it made the rear of the 580sk light.

Lol.. I was delivering fill to a place this week, and they had a little kubota M59 there spreading the piles and such.  Well one day, I dumped my first load at 8am, and the guy (green operator, older guy) was prodding this decent size pine stump with the hoe.  He had already dug around it the day before.  Anyways, he was still there messing with that stump when I dumped my last load at 5pm.  I walked up to him and gave him my card said when you get sick of that stump give me a call I'll take care of it LOL

Quote from: 4x4American on June 30, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
Lol.. I was delivering fill to a place this week, and they had a little kubota M59 there spreading the piles and such.  Well one day, I dumped my first load at 8am, and the guy (green operator, older guy) was prodding this decent size pine stump with the hoe.  He had already dug around it the day before.  Anyways, he was still there messing with that stump when I dumped my last load at 5pm.  I walked up to him and gave him my card said when you get sick of that stump give me a call I'll take care of it LOL

When we were considering equipment for stump removal, our sights were set initially on some mini-excavators up to say 7.5-8 ton range.  Folks on this forum warned vociferously about going too light.  Very fortunate that they did. We went heavier due to the loud chorus of advice.

I'd  have to agree the bigger the better. I wouldn't want anything smaller than my 580sk for digging stumps. It digs them up pretty well though.

I think it's all relative to what you use, and the stumps you pull.  Guys with 580 sized machines can dig any stump out there for the most part, but it may take ridiculously long on larger stumps.  Guys with little Kubota backhoes can usually dig out any stumps they come across as well, just takes longer. 

I rented a Kubota U25 mini ex a few weeks ago, and wouldn't want to attempt digging a stump out with it.  I used my old Dynahoe at around 20k lbs. to dig out a giant stump, took over 5 hrs.  Now I have a deere 410 (about the same as a 580) and I find that it's quicker for me to grind the giant stumps down than dig them out, and makes MUCH less of a mess. 

Now something like the larger excavators, especially with a ripper like you have, now that's the way to go!  I had an opportunity to run a few year old CAT 315 a few weeks back, and that was an impressive machine! 

Nothing beats the shear weight and power of a larger sized excavator!  Puts my little 16k lb backhoe to shame. 

Quote from: 4x4American on June 30, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
Lol.. I was delivering fill to a place this week, and they had a little kubota M59 there spreading the piles and such.

Hey don't make the M59 guys feel inadequate. Its a great machine within its limits. Just have to remember its not a 25,000lb industrial machine. My problem with it, is I can dig out things I can't lift/move

What I really need is a 30k excavator, for a month but the wife is never going to go for that.

Quote from: jdonovan on July 12, 2015, 11:26:10 PM

Quote from: 4x4American on June 30, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
Lol.. I was delivering fill to a place this week, and they had a little kubota M59 there spreading the piles and such.

Hey don't make the M59 guys feel inadequate. Its a great machine within its limits. Just have to remember its not a 25,000lb industrial machine. My problem with it, is I can dig out things I can't lift/move

What I really need is a 30k excavator, for a month but the wife is never going to go for that.

The M59 is my dream machine at this point.  If I had the spare cash, I'd upgrade from my L4610 in a heart beat.  If I could afford an aftermarket cab for it, I'd sell the JD410 as well and consolidate down to one machine.  The 410 is almost useless to me for my paying jobs as I can't trailer it myself. 

Quote from: Piston on July 12, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
I think it's all relative to what you use, and the stumps you pull.  Guys with 580 sized machines can dig any stump out there for the most part, but it may take ridiculously long on larger stumps.  Guys with little Kubota backhoes can usually dig out any stumps they come across as well, just takes longer. 

I rented a Kubota U25 mini ex a few weeks ago, and wouldn't want to attempt digging a stump out with it.  I used my old Dynahoe at around 20k lbs. to dig out a giant stump, took over 5 hrs.  Now I have a deere 410 (about the same as a 580) and I find that it's quicker for me to grind the giant stumps down than dig them out, and makes MUCH less of a mess. 

Now something like the larger excavators, especially with a ripper like you have, now that's the way to go!  I had an opportunity to run a few year old CAT 315 a few weeks back, and that was an impressive machine! 

Nothing beats the shear weight and power of a larger sized excavator!  Puts my little 16k lb backhoe to shame.

how big are these stumps? 5hrs with a 20k lb excavator?  With my 580sk a 3' diameter stump is like 20min. 5hrs of solid digging is a ton of dirt. I love my backhoe because of the sheer versatility.  There isn't too many jobs it can't accomplish well.

Quote from: Piston on July 12, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
I think it's all relative to what you use, and the stumps you pull.....

.... Nothing beats the shear weight and power of a larger sized excavator!  Puts my little 16k lb backhoe to shame.

Agree with your first statement, but disagree a tad, with the final two sentences.

It is all relative to the job at hand and the situation.  When I read the posts throughout this forum, it is pretty obvious that there are a large variety of machines, machine types and machine capabilities, being put to use in an equally large variety of situations.  What works well for one person, may not fit the bill for the next.  It really is amazing the variety and versatility of the tools and machines employed.

Consistent with the point above, I don't think that anyone's equipment puts any other person's equipment to shame. It is all a matter of situation & use.  This forum runs the gamut from professionals to rank amateurs like me.   The machine that works well for someone who is doing work for himself, or on a hobby woodlot or farm, won't be appropriate for the gent who makes his living where time is money, and vice versa.   I am consistently amazed and humbled by the expertise, experience and ingenuity of the seasoned folks on this forum and how they get stuff done.  It certainly has opened my eyes in a number of areas and caused me to think differently at times.  But it has never led me to believe that one guy's equipment is necessarily better than someone else's.

My dad has an old john deere 410 (I think) Backhoe.  It has worn out bushings.  Its hydrolics are slow as a snail.  My uncle had a bit bigger and newer backhoe.  It is so fast compared to dads that I am thinking of having it moved for $200 to dads to try and salvage logs in a lake building project.  I relize situations are differrent and there are differrances in an $8000 machine and a $16000 machine.  I love dads back hoe but depending on the job the machine that better fits makes life a little easeir.  It reminds me of when I mowed 3 acres with my craftsman mower compared to the zero turn.  It would get the job done but you needed 4 hours compared to 1 and 1/2 hours.  I know, a useless comment, but this thread put it on my mind.
gww

Well from what I've read the newer machines don't really dig faster or are hydraulically stronger than my 580sk. My Era of tlb was about the prime of them and I'd agree I love that machine. Some days an excavator in the 40k lb ranger and a d8 or so would be nice too lol.

Quote from: wfcjr on July 13, 2015, 09:07:01 AM

Quote from: Piston on July 12, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
I think it's all relative to what you use, and the stumps you pull.....

.... Nothing beats the shear weight and power of a larger sized excavator!  Puts my little 16k lb backhoe to shame.

Agree with your first statement, but disagree a tad, with the final two sentences.

Just to clear it up, I wasn't saying that Case 580 and other sized machines like that aren't good, I was just saying that based on my limited experience running a CAT 315, vs quite a bit of experience running my JD 410, the 38,000lb excavator puts my 16k lb backhoe to shame.  I really don't think anything can beat the weight and power of a large excavator like that, which makes sense, since they are designed specifically for digging, vs the versatility of the backhoe. 


Even as easy (relative to my smaller equipment) as it would have been to dig out the 3 good sized stumps I had to deal with using the CAT 315 Excavator, I still chose to grind them instead, it's just so much neater and easier to deal with when the stumps get really large. 

Here are the before and after pics of a few stumps I ground down, using a PTO powered grinder:
(Nevermind, I guess even an iphone takes pics too large for the photo software to handle.)

Best I can do is a time lapse video, a stump like this takes between 10-15 mins to grind with my little 40hp PTO tractor.
https://youtu.be/ibhGW35AFGw

Related  ;D

https://youtu.be/D6PGKcVr-8s (https://youtu.be/D6PGKcVr-8s)

still a lot of clean up.

Quote from: jdonovan on July 11, 2016, 09:39:31 AM
still a lot of clean up.

And way more time....  Cool video nonetheless!