Hey All.
I'm wanting to up my firewood sales and I'm trying to figure out the logistics of it all. I have zero exposure to the commercial firewood business and am probably going to ask a couple really stupid questions.... Try not to laugh. :)
I have been selling firewood on the side for several years but I've never been all that serious about it. 20-25 cords in a year is a good year for me. My phone nevers seems to stop ringing with people wanting more though. I need to figure out how to up my game a bit.
I'm usually a one man show. I have twin boys who are getting old enough to help now (as their crazy school, Scouts, sports schedule will allow anyway...)
I own a fair amount of timber. I have several old fields that grew up on previous owners and are now in need of TSI to get the basal area right. I cut a lot of small logs in the 10-12", maybe 14" size for firewood. Anything bigger is usually sawmill stuff, especially white and red oak, post oak not so much. I usually split the whole log, right down to the 4-5" stuff. I don't like wasting anything and the customers never complain.
Everything goes into a big pole barn with a dirt floor and open ends.
I have been cutting them and skidding them out with a 65HP 4x4 tractor. Sawmill logs get moved around with a Cat 299D XHP. It has a grapple on it and I use the Marshall Tree Saw on the smaller logs too. I buck them at the barn and split them with a Brave 36 ton splitter. I then load into a 14' dump trailer. I built sides on the trailer so when I stack one row up it equals 1/3 of a cord. I can get 3 cords and then some on the trailer. It won't lift that many, but my main market is 45 minutes away and it's to far to burn diesel for just one cord. I end up unloading 2 cords by hand and then usually dumping the 3rd.
My logs go on a dual tandem with a 25' deck.
My biggest bottlenecks seem to be splitting and stacking. Probably unloading too.
I've been looking at getting a processor. I am liking the Multitek stuff but I know there are a lot of others out there I need to take a look at too.
I still see the loading and stacking as being something a person can not avoid. I do have some people come out to get their wood and I was thinking of building a box built to measure "thrown cords". How accurate is that?
Does anyone have any thoughts on processors a person should take a look at? I am liking those circular saw ones.
Any ideas on how to speed up the stacking/measuring/delivering? I want to be accurate. I want to make sure and give people what they are paying for. Maybe I should figure out a way to better utilize that dual tandem deck. I have a F-550 to move it around with and can put a pretty good load on it.
Thanks for reading and for any thoughts you all care to share.
Cannot really help you with which processor but in the UK logs are mainly sold by volume. I would think you can work back from whatever is a common US measurement and build your box to suit. Log boys over here sell in big bags, pickup loads and very ocasionally weight but never stacked. It would take too long, as you are finding. Good luck with it.
Should be able to stack a cord than throw it is into a box and then mark it. I would do iit at least twice to make sure. I worked for a guy that had a dump trailer. I loaded it,using a conveyor,to the top of the second side board. I had to get in and lever the load and that was a cord.
Hi,
I agree with thecfarm. I process my wood into my 1 ton dump truck, then dump it in my staging area. When i'm making delivery's I load the truck with my loader tractor. I have lines inside the box so I know how much is in there. I do not stack a thing it's a time killer, time I could be on the processor.
You can gain some time & production with a different splitter. Have you looked at the Super Split? I have on & it is very fast & efficient.
190 cubic foot of volume for a cord of loose 16" cut and split wood. Save a lot of time versus stacking it in trailer. Look at Blockbuster processors. Also, load the loose wood into the trailer with the grapple.
Don't stack any of it.
Yeah, we are all thinking along the same lines. Stacking wood is a killer....
My market is so full of con artists. They make it hard to sell wood that is not stacked up in a trailer. People have been made to be paranoid by the guys who go buy one cord from someone like me and then "magically" turn it into two cords with their stacking/cross-stacking/loose stacking. I have new customers sometimes measure the cords before buying. I am thinking that "thrown cords" are going to be a tough sell. I know it can be done though.
I'm going to build up a 190 ft^3 box and give that a go. Thanks for the number to work with!
I knew I would get some good feedback here. Thanks guys.
The loose tossed standard is fairly solid, here is a bulletin from the University of Maine for reference for you and or your buyers maybe...
http://forest.umaine.edu/files/2009/10/Tree-Volume.pdf
It refers to loose tossed in the firewood paragraph, i dont see it in any table.
Reference some legit sources backing up the research that has resulted in the 180ft3/cord standard, educate the people and you may be okay. If you have plenty of (or too much) demand now maybe you can stand to thin out the people that dont want to deal with loose tossed.
I know there was loose tossed standard for Maine on the books because I found it for my own reference... but now I cant place it. Of course your not in Maine but still, its reference material.
Firewood sux any way you look at it, your busy, I would drop the customers that don't trust you on quantity and want you to stack it. I would reconfigure your trailer so it will dump a full load. Firewood is mostly handling labor anything you can do to reduce that is money in your pocket. Good idea to mark your trailer with cord and cubic feet levels and show doubting customers. Firewood dealers have always been like used car salesmen folks just don't trust em. Your average joe muff doesn't know a cord of wood if he tripped over it. Frank C.
If the customer wants it stacked charge for the stacking. I think double would be fair.
Client tells me So an So will stack the delivery for another $10.00 per cord. I tell them they should buy it from him ;D 8)
I should clarify that as $10.00 a face cord ;D
The only stacking I do is for commercial accounts. I charge them well for it too. If I lose a sale because I won't stack, so be it.
We stack wood bundles for those two accounts. That's it. There used to be a couple elderly clients that I'd stack for but they have since passed away :(
I stack for little old ladys are those youngers ones with big.........
Raise your minimum delivery too. I won't delivery any less than two 16" face cords and charge accordingly for that. It takes the same amount of time and fuel for a two cord delivery as a five cord load. I had a guy call a couple weeks ago looking for a half face cord delivered. I told him I'd bring him two for the same price it would cost him for a half ;) ;D :D He didn't want two and didn't feel 130 dollars was fair for a half smiley_thumbsup smiley_smug01
Tons of good advice here guys. Thanks.
If I followed you, you are stacking for two reasons: 1) to get more in your truck per load, so you don't have to make as many trips, and 2) so you can show it to your customers already stacked (in your truck) and they can see it's a cord.
I can't help you much with #1, other than to say you need to decide which is worth more to you: the time you spend stacking, or the time and diesel you would spend making an extra trip.
For #2, if you have repeat customers, they'll learn that you are honest in your measure. If you can justify not stacking it in the truck to get more in the load, just sell to the ones whoare willing to trust you, and make sure you err on the + side, rather than the - side (it may be worth it to give a little bit extra, rather than spend time stacking). It sounds as though you have more customers than wood anyway.
The thought comes to mind that stacking delivered wood may be a good venture for one or two high school boys looking for part time work. If it could be that the seller had a couple lined up that the buyer could pay to stack, would be some loose change for the youngsters.
Could even be some spin off jobs that a home-owner could dream up if the workers show some ambition.
I've done that. Sometimes it's ok but there unreliable and do shoty work.
QuoteSometimes it's ok but there unreliable and do shoty work.
Being that they would be working for and paid by the buyer, don't worry about it. Up to the buyer to supervise their work.
As the seller of wood, it takes the monkey off your back to stack wood for customers... is about all I was suggesting (so maybe not lose the customer).
I'm overwhelmed with all the great advice here guys. There is A LOT of knowledge on this forum. Joining it is going to be one of my best moves in a long time...lol. I hope at some point I will be able to repay it with some advice of my own. The only advice I have so far is to tell you to tell your kids not to grow up to be firewood salesmen. :)
I've been charging $10 to stack a 1/3rd. I feel that's pretty fair. Some people are okay with it, others look at me like I have an arm growing out of my forehead. What are others seeing?
How does a person get into the bundled firewood business? I thought about taking some bundles around to area stores to see if I could work out a deal or two, but I don't even know where to start. Are the stores buying the wood themselves then marking it up however they please and selling it or is the firewood supplier keeping the racks full and paying so much per bundle sold to the store? I would not even have a clue what to ask the store for a bundle.
Don't handle the wood anymore than necessary, including stacking. If the customer wants it stacked, charge them what it's worth to you for it or move on. Life's too short to stack cords for peanuts, especially considering how much labor is already put into that cord prior to that point.
Are you selling green or seasoned wood? From reading your 1st post, it seems you are splitting directly into dump trailer and delivering, which is fine...just curious. Seasoned obviously has to be handled 1 more time (to unload it wherever it sits to season) and is more labor intensive and should command more money if nothing else than for that reason.
We sell 25-30 cords per year to 1 customer year-round at this point (restaurant with wood-fired oven) and are also brainstorming and looking for ways to up production without too much out of pocket equipment costs for other sales next year, but we are working with much less equipment than you already have.
I think if you take the time to measure the dump trailer at 1 cord and/or 2 cords loosely tossed in (or use 180 cu ft as a guide, which I've found to be accurate) and don't do any stacking, you'll notice some good gains. As it is you are taking time to stack 3 cords at a time, which even if you can do it super quick, good lord your back must hate you after that. Then you're having to unload 2 of those 3 by hand out of a dump trailer before you can finally dump the last one. Seems like you could come out ahead by sticking with what the trailer can lift to dump and possibly considering a minimum delivery amount for customers. Say you have 2 cords in dump trailer and you need to deliver 1 cord here and the other cord somewhere else...rig up some kind of stout barrier at the proper measured distance in middle of trailer (maybe an oversized pallet or custom wooden "door" that can hold the last cord in trailer when dumping the 1st) then take it out for last delivery. That way you're not running 45 min for 1 cord deliveries and wasting time and fuel.
Use your Cat loader with grapple or bucket (if you have one) to load the splits into dump trailer and your back will thank you.
Do you have a 4 or 6 way wedge on your splitter? If not, with logs within a certain diameter range, that can certainly speed up splitting time.
I am still learning new tricks to all this myself, but I would love to have at least a couple of the pieces of equipment you already are working with for our firewood production. You may as well use them to save your body and your time whenever possible.
Hope this helps!
To answer some of the questions... Yes, I often split it and put it right on the trailer. I've been working though a lot of white oak and red oak that's been down 5 years and I'm getting no complaints about it burning, so I figured why not cut a step out. When I do get ahead, I buck a lot of logs and put them under the roof of the barn. In my area, there does not seem to be any price difference between split for six months and just split. It is so cut-throat and there are so many con artists.... People assume that they are going to get taken no matter what. They price shop right down to the dollar too and won't give an extra five bucks for wood that has been under a roof. It's nuts...
It makes it difficult, but it also has a lot of possibilities. A person could take advantage of that by offering a quality product that burns well, honest volumes, and timely service. It might take a couple years but there is a good possibility of lining up a lot of repeat business and rising above the Craigslist ilk (not everyone, but 99% of them seem to be bad around here).
I don't know if just a wedge will make the difference I am looking for. It would help for sure, but I don't believe my splitter is up to the task.
I have just about made up my mind to purchase a firewood processor. I thought maybe I could rig up some kind of a tumbler too. A clean product would help a person stand out with the city crowd who want their driveways spotless.
I have been looking really hard at the Multitek 1620SS and a similar one from Cord King. There are some others out there, but I definitely want to stay away from the "chainsaw" versions. I see that as a pain.
I'm thinking a person could cut the 10-14" logs while doing TSI then stack them so they can start seasoning. Then you could use the Cat to feed the processor the logs. A conveyor with a debris removal could then drops it right into a dump trailer or into the barn just depending. I am going to use the info I gained here and weld up a panel to divide the trailer in two. I can drop a "thrown cord" into the front and a second one in the back. I don't know if the trailer has the nuts to lift both up, but at worst, I would have to throw half a cord off, then dump the rest. I could then remove the gate and dump the second cord. I lose a cord per trip, but I also don't have to stack three cords before I go or hand bomb two cords at the customer's site. That is going to help a lot!
Logs don't season well. I've cut red oak left on a header for three or four years and it's just as soggy as when the tree was dropped, maybe worse. :D Most of the water in a log escapes through the end grain, so it really doesn't start to season until it is bucked to firewood lengths.
I longer attempt to sell seasoned wood. It's green and my clients now it. I'm getting them trained to buy it early and season it themselves ;)
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 17, 2014, 02:32:59 PM
Logs don't season well. I've cut red oak left on a header for three or four years and it's just as soggy as when the tree was dropped, maybe worse. :D Most of the water in a log escapes through the end grain, so it really doesn't start to season until it is bucked to firewood lengths.
I'm pulling mine off of a south facing slope that gets a lot of light and air. So far, no complaints, none last year either and several repeats. I should have said that the bigger ones get bucked and then sit. The smaller diameter, no problems so far. I heading out now to knock on some wood. :D
The name of the game is to get ahead of the curve. :) That is the plan anyways....
I agree that logs don't season well. Health of the tree and time of year that it was felled plays a bigger part. Oak especially; it just holds water forever till it is split...but if the customers seem happy with fresh split oak, more power to em! That's less work for you.
That's nice for those of you that can get the same price selling green wood. We couldn't get away with that in our current situation, but at the same time we get $300/cord delivered for mixed hardwood (including tulip poplar) split to 4" average splits. That's top dollar in this area.
I'll be following this thread closely. We have some of the same goals and scale going on in our operation and a 40+ acre TSI job coming up soon that will yield as much firewood as we can skid out. Not really in the financial position to buy a new processor by any means, but still dreaming. How much does the Multitek go for that you are considering?
I sold my processor. A 4 way wedge is a must for production with any machine you choose and if your not handling it by hand a cleaner is a must. I don't stack anytime any where. Way to time consuming. And I buy my wood early early spring like February and March and sell it as Seasond the next winter. Never any complaints. Except oak that needs a little longer. If your running split loads put a divider gate in your rig. You can't up production with a sore back. Handle less faster and keep a clean consistent product and they have no reason to go elsewhere unless it's cheap. Then they'll be crawling back. I've never had wood left over for the next season. And you'll never get rich.
Quote from: Philbo on December 17, 2014, 08:47:14 PM
I agree that logs don't season well. Health of the tree and time of year that it was felled plays a bigger part. Oak especially; it just holds water forever till it is split...but if the customers seem happy with fresh split oak, more power to em! That's less work for you.
That's nice for those of you that can get the same price selling green wood. We couldn't get away with that in our current situation, but at the same time we get $300/cord delivered for mixed hardwood (including tulip poplar) split to 4" average splits. That's top dollar in this area.
I'll be following this thread closely. We have some of the same goals and scale going on in our operation and a 40+ acre TSI job coming up soon that will yield as much firewood as we can skid out. Not really in the financial position to buy a new processor by any means, but still dreaming. How much does the Multitek go for that you are considering?
Yeah, it sounds like we have the same ideas. $300 a cord is a dream where I am. Too many oaks trees in the Ozarks and too many competitors. I average $200 a cord. I can tack on a $20 delivery on each of three cords so by the time the diesel is paid for, I could say I add a little to that, but not much.
It seems anything decent starts at around 40k.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on December 18, 2014, 05:10:22 AM
I sold my processor. A 4 way wedge is a must for production with any machine you choose and if your not handling it by hand a cleaner is a must. I don't stack anytime any where. Way to time consuming. And I buy my wood early early spring like February and March and sell it as Seasond the next winter. Never any complaints. Except oak that needs a little longer. If your running split loads put a divider gate in your rig. You can't up production with a sore back. Handle less faster and keep a clean consistent product and they have no reason to go elsewhere unless it's cheap. Then they'll be crawling back. I've never had wood left over for the next season. And you'll never get rich.
Why did you sell your processor Joe? Just curious to hear the other side of the story. It's never as easy as the videos the sales folks send out I'm sure...
There worth the money if you can feed it wood steady. I was buying and trucking 100" into my yard and the price of pulp is high enough I wasn't happy with the ending numbers. Figured I'd try cutting at the stump again and handle it less. But now I'm driving loader truck so I may not do as much firewood anyway. Funny how things work out when other things change.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on December 18, 2014, 11:40:36 AM
There worth the money if you can feed it wood steady. I was buying and trucking 100" into my yard and the price of pulp is high enough I wasn't happy with the ending numbers. Figured I'd try cutting at the stump again and handle it less. But now I'm driving loader truck so I may not do as much firewood anyway. Funny how things work out when other things change.
What kind did you have and what did you think of it when you could keep enough wood in front of it? I wonder about how they handle small stuff? I don't like to waste wood and I want to split everything right down to the branches that are big enough. The videos only show trunks getting split and usually they are pretty nice ones. I can't see feeding a nice straight 18" white oak into it like they seem to do. That doesn't make sense to me. I always have a hard time figuring firewood vs. sawmill on a lot of smaller straight logs, but an 18-20" log seems like a no brainer to me.
It was a Dyna. A smaller one. 16" max cut. But we cut our logs down to 8" if it's straight and solid enough to get a cant out of. It was a good machine. I'd buy another one. The harvester chain is only real good in winter cut wood. Those big ones that will cut anything standing with a slasher saw is out of firewood price range as far as I care. $100,000+ is not firewood equipment. And I don't think they would handle 3" stuff well. And you only get that big money production if you cut at full campasity diameter. Mine would cut 2".
Quote from: labradorguy on December 15, 2014, 04:49:50 PM
I'm overwhelmed with all the great advice here guys. There is A LOT of knowledge on this forum. Joining it is going to be one of my best moves in a long time...lol. I hope at some point I will be able to repay it with some advice of my own. The only advice I have so far is to tell you to tell your kids not to grow up to be firewood salesmen. :)
I've been charging $10 to stack a 1/3rd. I feel that's pretty fair. Some people are okay with it, others look at me like I have an arm growing out of my forehead. What are others seeing?
How does a person get into the bundled firewood business? I thought about taking some bundles around to area stores to see if I could work out a deal or two, but I don't even know where to start. Are the stores buying the wood themselves then marking it up however they please and selling it or is the firewood supplier keeping the racks full and paying so much per bundle sold to the store? I would not even have a clue what to ask the store for a bundle.
there are quite a few different ways to do it on the bundle end of firewood. I have a few accounts that just buy a couple cords from me and then they stack and sell it at there price. then i have some accounts that want a 2x2 stack and plastic wrapped. On the accounts that want it 2x2 they just hold the wood for me and sell as people want it then i give them a percentage for letting me store at there store or where ever it maybe there is a few ways to do it i pefer to do the cord accounts and let them deal with it but i make a little more off of the 2x2 stacks cause in state parks you are not allowed to take any wood to burn so people have to buy it. Hope this helps on the bundle. The best advice is to work with the store owner and firgure out what would be the best way for both parties.