My wife tells me I can't do both at one time. So I need advice.
How about adding some additional information about where your lumber will come from without a sawmill. What are your lumber plans? What species are you planning to dry and use?
And Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
what are your goals? do you have a business plan?
do you have a source for green lumber?
do you have an outlet for dried material?
do you have a budget?
I really like anything to with wood, firewood gettting lumber from old barns. I have a friend that has a mill and can get wood to dry. Is there enough money in drying 1000bf at a time while building up business. Plan to start small kind of a hobby. I still work full time at a local gas processing plant.
No brainer...You need a mill to cut lumber to build a shed to put the mill under, then you need a kiln to dry the lumber that you needed in the first place ;D Sorta like which came first, the chicken or the egg..
Thanks for the info . You didn't have to think on that one long. Is there room for another mill and in this neck of the woods.
I have seen many people start with one kiln, buying lumber from sawmills or doing custom drying for others. Profits are good if you have the right species. In fact, many people add a second kiln soon after starting. Consider a DH kiln.
I've had a mill for quite a while.....the biggest hang up is not having a kiln to dry the wood I've milled. There is only 1 kiln I know of in the area. It is expensive and has a 1000bf minimum. He's always busy, or so he was last time I checked.
If I had a kiln first I could be drying other's lumber. I'd consider a small kiln, or large kiln which could be divided in 1/2--if there is such a thing--so that 500bf could be run at a time. I think that's more practical for the average guy who wants his custom milled lumber dried.
I was going to build a portable-ish solar kiln, and I still might. In the long term plan though, I think I'm going to put a DH kiln in an insulated shipping container and make some rail-cars on tracks to get the materials in and out.
Another good reason to never listen to your wife ;D
Get the mill first then build your own kiln !
personally i would look hard at your area to see what the sawing versus drying needs are, building a larger kiln will provide you better than a small kiln .you can put less wood in a larger kiln but,you can put more wood in a small kiln. :)
the natural process would be sawmill first ,kiln second.
This is not as simple as logic, instead you have to think like the person you are trying to convince. If you get the kiln first, you will buy wood from someone else (like your buddy, or someone else with a mill.), dry it, and sell it. At this point to the untrained eye it will appear that your enterprise operates 100% A-OK without even owning a mill. However, if you buy the mill first and then immediately start griping about how there are no kilns to dry your valuable lumber you will plant the seed. Then deliberately leave some fresh cut boards out in the sun to warp and make a big deal (when she is looking) about how they were ruined, by lack of having a kiln. Meanwhile make sure to sell some straight air-dried boards and brag about the profit for that "straight, dry wood". The rest is child's play.
I know of which I speak, for I have been waging this kind of battle for 20 some-odd years, and I am a grizzled veteran of the tool & equipment wars. It's been a tough campaign, I gain a little ground on one front, but then she flanks my forces on another and we lose the beach head. My lieutenant (teenage son) and I huddle in the war-room (workshop) and confer about battle-plans (tool catalogs) in the fading candle light (dim glow from the wood stove). Slowly we craft our strategy and deploy our resources. The worst thing about this kind of conflict is that the enemy doesn't always fight fair. Sometimes she employs brutal siege tactics (won't make dinner), or uses devious psychological warfare (the silent treatment). That's ok, sometimes we have our own sneaky tricks (sparkly gifts on anniversary and birthday) that we are confident are lulling the bear into submission. Victory will be mine!
But seriously, I would buy the mill first, then build the kiln. The mill is the key that unlocks so much other stuff.
I would not build a business dependent upon someone else's lumber or sawing.
Of course with a sawmill, you also might find that there is a niche sawing market and the lumber selling might not happen or may be a minimum portion of your new business.
The key to sawing or drying is selling what you produced. This means producing a product that is desired by a customer. Marketing requires time and effort. A poor showing in this effort means failure.
I do believe I would be able to dry lumber with less of my labor than sawing. A properly run kiln should make at least $125 per MBF pure profit.
I built my kiln three years before I purchased my first sawmill, and would do the same thing again.
There are lots of folks around that can mill, but there usually are not a lot of kilns available. Additionally, the profit margin on milling is much less than the margin on kiln drying. Plus, since there is usually less local competition for kiln drying as opposed to milling, you have a better chance of staying busy.
Plus you can team up with several sawyers and offer them kiln drying services.
Re pricing, a number of years ago Gene suggested that a fair rate for kiln drying was $25.00 per day per 1M bd ft. I've found that to be a good guideline.
The kiln first idea is not silly.
What is the market looking for? More green lumber, or dry finished product? If you buy a mill, you are competing directly with your buddy for the same log source and customers. If you buy a kiln you can be a business ally to your buddy, You don't have to depend on each other as a sole source of income, but you can work together to both make more $$.
Other thing about a kiln, MUCH less labour. Sure you have to load and unload it. But that's a few hours work. For the week in between it just needs checking to make sure it's running right. Means you can run a small kiln operation AND hold a regular job as well. A sawmill, you have to actually be working it to earn any money.
There may even be the case of expanding the downstream side of the operation. A planers and moulder to convert the kiln dried wood into flooring and moulding ready to use. One of my day job clients does just that. They buy in green lumber by the truck load and process it and sell the finished product wholesale. Multimillion dollar operation with maybe 50 or so staff. No sawmill on site, although they are part of a larger group that does operate mills. No reason you can't do the same thing on a smaller scale.
Thanks All for your input. I am really enjoy the forum ,look forward everyday to read my messages and see what is going on in the "world of wood"and the other side of theworld.
I have the sawmill and stacks of un kilned slabs and lumber, mostly slabs. I need a kiln to sell my wood. I agree with Ianab.
Now my question to the forum, is there a certain type IE: DH or Solar or Radial kiln that will dry big slabs better than the other, or faster
In most case, but the answer might vary with species and climate, the best idea is to shed dry in an open shed down to 25% MC, give or take. Use mesh curtains to avoid excessively fast drying.
Then kiln dry to the desired final MC. Because solar is not a 12 month operation, a DH kiln offers year round performance with lots of people available to answer specific questions, because those people have a DH kiln and have already tried out what you have a question about.
i started with a big 4 sided planer, later that same year i added my first dh kiln. the following year i hired a portable circle mill to saw for me. i did that for 3 yrs before buying my first bandmill.
even having my own mill running 6 days aweek, i still hired the portable circle mill 1 day a week.
i guess the moral to my story is you can be in the lumber business without having to own a sawmill :)
One thing to consider, and something that is far too often overlooked, is how much cash you have available after your purchase. If you are drying other peoples lumber, you will not need as much cash but will likely make less profit. If you are purchasing lumber, then drying it and reselling it you will need much more cash. At $1.50 a bd/ft it will take $1,500 to fill that kiln, plus you will likely want 2 more loads shed drying so that $4,500 extra needed to run your operation. Now lets pretend that you get a couple of cabinet shops buying from you, but they don't pay you for 45 days, oops, you need more cash. Many profitable businesses fail not from low profitability but from lack of cash.
Geoff
Don't want to make it too simple but you have to build the kiln firs ;Dt... If you build the mill first your wife might change her mind and not let you have a kiln. >:(.. If you build the kiln first she'll have to let you build a mill so the kiln won't be a waste of money :o which would be technically her fault for giving you a choice in the first place... LOL 8) 8) 8).
Thanks addysdaddy. I think I will probably build a kiln first.
By now, you have gotten some very good advice on both sides of the topic. All I can add is that I am building a DH kiln right now. I plan on buying my own logs from loggers, getting the logs to a local sawyer, and then kiln drying the lumber on my premises. From there, I will be able to sell the dried lumber to local woodworkers.
Yes, I have gotten very good info. I am most likely going to build the kiln first. What kind of kiln are you building. Would like to see some pictures. Are you planning to get a mill later. Thanks for all advice. I really am enjoying the forum, can't wait till its too dark to work on my kiln/ mill site so I can come in and check out what is going on. Thanks again. Please keep me posted on your progress.
It might pay to do some "market" research..... I have been visiting local woodworkers to promote my sawmill products. I'm getting a 50/50 response on kiln needs. There are a great many craftsmen who like to work with air dried wood as it machines better and in certain species has better color. The production shops want KD and reliability & stability..... Some of the furniture makers and small shops are just grateful for access to local woods and stuff they can't buy on easily or inexpensively from the wholesalers. They understand wood and it's movement and work with it.
That being said....I am still planing on building a Pineywoods' Kiln soon.....