I've been watching TV shows like Ax Men, where in between all the fake drama, you can see that there is a huge percentage of waste wood that appears to be left in the woods or on the landing. I commented to my wife that I'd love to have all of the chunks of butt logs that they cut off, no matter what the species. I also noticed on Youtube videos that originate from northern Europe, that they process a lot more of the tree, and smaller trees to boot. Coppicing seems to be a popular practice in much of the rest of the world and there are machines made especially for processing small diameter wood into firewood.
So why don't we do this in the US? Is it just that we are lazy? Do we have such an overabundance of firewood that we don't need the little stuff? I always thought my father was nuts for processing all the way down to the small branches, an inch or so in diameter, it seemed like a crazy amount of extra work. Now I find myself doing almost the same thing, I'll leave the stuff over 2" in diameter in the woods unless it's a species like hornbeam or hickory, then I'll go even smaller. There's been several times when I will load up my tractor bucket with dead branches and fill up the wood boiler. Only takes a little while and they burn just as well as anything else. The little stuff makes a heck of a bed of coals too.
I've got a neighbor who's recently cut down a bunch of trees, mostly hardwoods, to improve his view. He took all the butts for firewood, down to about 6" diameter. He's probably left a dozen cords of wood between 6" and 2" diameter and I know it's going to be pushed into a pile and burned. I have a hard time with this. I'm trying to find a good way to process these tops without too much trouble. It may be as simple as cutting it into 4' pieces and bringing it home one bucket at a time. At least there's no splitting involved. Just have to find a place to put it all. I just don't understand why it all has to go to waste. I drive by logging jobs and see there's tops all over the place, or along the highway they've chipped all the tops and all the logs are still there. Along the NYS thruway heading south from Albany there's a couple mile stretch where there's gotta be a hundred cords of wood all sitting there rotting, some of it is 18-24" diameter sawlogs and nobody is allowed to touch it.
Guess I'm just ranting. I'd like to see what ideas people have for processing the smaller stuff. Standing there with a crossbuck and chainsaw gets old and tiring after a while. I have a "Smart-Holder" from Bailey's which has proven to be more of a pain in the butt than I expected, I'm looking into a 3-point buzz saw or a 12" electric chopsaw for cutting the little stuff up. I'm not gonna waste it.
Around here, when a farmer buys an adjacent piece of property (tillable land), they will take out the fence line, which of course is littered with trees (sometimes a mile long or longer). They usually use a bulldozer/crawler, cut it, and push it into a pile and set it on fire. Same goes for old farmsteads. If there are some really good sized hardwoods, some of the trunks will be salvaged, but for the most part, same MO, push and burn.
For liability reasons, and time constraints (theirs) they are not receptive to anyone picking through it for firewood.
Ive been 4 wheeling out west in the sierras, at times running logging roads up in Oregon, Ive been on landings where the amount of lumber left on the ground, is mind numbing. I know nothing about the business and how that comes to pass, but was taken back by how much lumber was left behind, as a casual observer.
From my perspective, it's an easy answer: economics 101. Cost more to haul the small stuff to town than it'll bring in. Mills can only saw down to a certain size, and pulp price although improving, is only an incentive for close to town operators. On site chipping operations will recover more of the wood than hauling tops and small diameters, because it's more economical. From a firewood perspective, I can understand the "waste" one sees in a pile ready for burning, but burning that pile does good things for that area of soil; char and ash. I would agree that personally I would utilize every piece of usable/burnable wood possible.
I'm with you. I get stumped by the same thing. My town has taken to gathering up any down trees and auctioning them off in the fall as firewood, with proceeds going into the general fund. I'm cool with that. Personally I cut all straight branches down to 2" diameter. I don't cut up the branches that are 'feathery' with off shoots. They are too dangerous to cut with a chainsaw. I don't have a special technique, just cut to length with a chainsaw.
I have inquired about the down trees. Along the limited access roadways (highways) it is illegal to stop and collect the down wood. Along state and town roads, the logs are property of the town and/or landowner. Kind of weird. If one gets permission from the landowner to retrieve the wood then you can, unless the town removes them first then they are the town's.
QuoteSo why don't we do this in the US?
Simply cannot afford to pick up the junk.
Go ahead and mandate that it be picked up, and you (we) will have to pay to have it removed.
On the flip side, there are those who get a mandate that a certain volume of timber cut on Nat'l Forest has to be left on the ground to rot.. so the little critters and mites, etc. have a home. Was on a timber sale in OR once where the USFS Forester explained that one perfectly fine specimen of a large tree (30" dbh on this one) had to be felled and left laying on the ground. Along side it, a perfectly dead tree could not be felled as a substitute for the live tree sacrificed.
The forests are being used to satisfy every tom, dick, and harry (as well as the jane's) with little to do with good productive forestry management for wood. My opinion... ;)
If you want to see devastation after a clearcut, and removal of just the large timber, go to Alaska and see what the native people are doing with the forests that were given to them. Meanwhile, the USFS cannot cut anything.
But when the natives run out of timber to cut, they trade that land back to the public in exchange for more timber land to do their cutting. Pretty bad, but then that is our mode of operandi nowdays.
I had some wood cut on my land. I used the cut offs in my OWB. Some was 3 feet across.This was all white pine,so without the OWB,there is really no way to burn that stuff. I burn ALOT of small wood and stuff that don't look the best in my OWB. One of my friends laughs at my wood pile. ;D But I do what you do Engineer. I do have a OWB that will take a 54 inch stick. So this really helps out on the amount of small stuff that I can burn. I don't like to waste any wood either.
The common way of measuring firewood is the cord but it would be more accurate to say we need a certain number of tons of seasoned wood to heat for the season. It takes a lot more time and energy to get a good ton of 2" branches cut, hauled and stacked than say 6" wood so if it's in the woods I stop about 4" while if it fell in a field or pasture where I need to move it anyway than I'll cut much smaller. For me 8-12 inch trees is where I seem to get the most done per hour of my time.
Any wood that is left in the woods and allowed to rot and return back into the soil is considered biomass. This is a good thing. While not necessarily the nicest thing to look at when it is first cut, if it is cut into small pieces or run over with machinery, it will rot quicker and nourish the next round of trees to grow.
So it is not wasted, just re-used as fertilizer. The forests have been doing this for millions of years before we started managing them.
I haven't had a wood burning fireplace in about 10 years, but when I did, I'd go to FS land to get firewood. You had to go to a Ranger Station to obtain a "permit". You would buy a cord at a time. They give you three 1/3 cord tickets for $10 (IIRC). They figure the average truck could carry 1/3 of a cord. They would also give you a hand-drawn map of the local forest roads and identify recent clear cut areas. You had the best luck there for volume for next burn season but you could stop anywhere in the forest to take dead-down wood. You cold not cut standing dead. You load up your truck/trailer and attach a ticket (filling in the date) so if you get pulled over, you don't get cited.
I would go with a friend (with his own truck) and it became a running joke - "a great day for a drive". Since the maps weren't to scale, you would end up driving 10 to 30 miles on really bad dirt roads. Our "free" ::) wood got expensive. He broke his rear window, I got a flat and lost a really nice watch and got attacked by yellow jackets :(
There were a lot of BIG trees and lots of them before some educated person started managing the forests. smiley_tom_dizzy03
Maybe we have become too soft here in the US? Perhaps it just pound foolishness. Last summer my neighbor across the fence had a good size oak fall over, it was 1/2 dead before it fell anyway. Well, I saw him out there for the better part of a weeek with his tractor and a saw - figured he was cutting it up as he burns wood. Nope, later in the summer I "discovered" the pile on my side of the fence, all cut to what ever size he could toss around with his bucket and in about a 4' tall pile now with the root ball lying next to it. I made a point next time I saw him to let him know that had he simply called I would have happily brought over my skidder and excavator and cleaned up the whole thing in probably 1/2 hour in exchange for the wood.
When it's left to go back on the ground it's a good thing. It bothers me when biomass is buried in a landfill when it could be put to a good use.
What gets me about out west are the 3ft tall stumps. They waste more wood than I cut some days.
Quote from: Engineer on January 20, 2015, 01:54:46 PM
I'm looking into a 3-point buzz saw or a 12" electric chopsaw for cutting the little stuff up.
I just picked up a used 3 point pto powered buzz saw to cut up slabs and reject lumber. I love the thing! Respect it as you would any potentially dangerous tool...I think it is safer than a chainsaw. Certainly faster!
We do firewood harvest all winter for a guy. I too am amazed at what we waste. Its too bad. I skimmed through above posts but agree it just cost us too much to get every piece. $1 in diesel fuel to get .25 cents worth of wood.
I too watch you tube vids from around the world and i think we are stuck on big machines. Those micro operations else wear really get work done and get the most out of the forest it seems.
I leave anything smaller than 3" or so to rot and return nutrients to the soil. Most of the nutrients are in the surface layers (bark and just under the bark, as well as leaves). By leaving the small stuff, you are leaving a good bit more nutrients than you might expect if you just judged by volume or weight. I don't consider this "wasted". I consider it an investment in future forest productivity.
My other reason for leaving the small stuff is that it's just too labor intensive to get it usable for firewood. My one exception is that I will burn smaller sizes of buckthorn. I HATE that stuff, and it's taking over parts of my woodland -- so I tend to terminate with extreme prejudice, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense financially or in terms of time spent.
North America has always had vast forests and we have been like the kid in front of a bowl of gum balls. Nothing left in the woods is wasted. The real crime is housing developments and strip malls that destroy forests. European countrys conserve because they don't have much left. Frank C.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 20, 2015, 08:34:46 PM
I haven't had a wood burning fireplace in about 10 years, but when I did, I'd go to FS land to get firewood. You had to go to a Ranger Station to obtain a "permit". You would buy a cord at a time. They give you three 1/3 cord tickets for $10 (IIRC). They figure the average truck could carry 1/3 of a cord. They would also give you a hand-drawn map of the local forest roads and identify recent clear cut areas. You had the best luck there for volume for next burn season but you could stop anywhere in the forest to take dead-down wood. You cold not cut standing dead. You load up your truck/trailer and attach a ticket (filling in the date) so if you get pulled over, you don't get cited.
I would go with a friend (with his own truck) and it became a running joke - "a great day for a drive". Since the maps weren't to scale, you would end up driving 10 to 30 miles on really bad dirt roads. Our "free" ::) wood got expensive. He broke his rear window, I got a flat and lost a really nice watch and got attacked by yellow jackets :(
I wish they did that here on the east coast. Here, it's illegal to take downed wood that's on the side of the road. Why? No idea...don't make sense to me.
There isn't much U.S. Forest Service land in NY state 4x4American. Just a little bit in the Finger Lakes area. You can get the firewood permits on the Green Mountain National Forest in VT last I heard. I don't know if the same is true for the Finger Lakes, which is technically operated from the Rutland VT headquarters.
I too don't like to waste wood. I process down pretty small, 3" or so. Having a buzz saw was the best thing I ever made for this type of work. I pile up the limbs that are 3" to 6" or so off to the side of my larger logs. When I cut and split the larger pieces I'll fill my dumptruck about 3/4 full than top it off with the limbs as I cut them on the buzz saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26694/004.JPG)
Years ago, many in fact, my buddy and I got permission from a logging contractor to salvage fence posts and firewood from the brush pile as long as we didn't make a mess. We pulled a lot of wood out of that pile, apparently we are no longer permitted to do that. The tops are chipped and used for fuel at the mill steam plant.
What really breaks my heart is seeing wood ctl, especially birch, and stacked along utility rights of way. I don't know if it gets sold, chipped or burned but we are not allowed to touch it.
Not just in the USA! Here on the East Coast of Canada as well. A lot of land here is privately owned and it used to be after a block was harvested if there was some wood left over you could talk to the land owner and would usually get permission to take it. Unfortunately some people took the permission too far and would start cutting standing wood. Most times now it just rots in piles.
I use some pretty small poles for firewood, depending on how far I have to carry/drag them through the woods to my landing. I bought a crib from northern tool
Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company; they call it something else, but I can stack a bunch of poles in it and saw them all up with a few passes of my chainsaw without the little pieces flying all over the place or into my face.
I agree that what I leave in the woods is not going to waste, but I do want to minimize fire danger and leave at least some trails clear enough that I can get around in it easily.
Often the wood needs to be within 10km from your base to make it economic. Further and your just giving money to your mechanic.
In the land clearing business around here it's hard to be competitive unless you have outlets for the wood, it's too dang expensive to haul to an "approved" facility, or to tubgrind. We have to take all the grade logs and firewood out right off the top to help offset the clearing cost, and even when we chip or tubgrind we still have to dispose of that waste, luckily there's a composting facility that will take the chips and mulch for low $. Stumps, twigs and leaves are the only part of the tree that are "waste" in my mind. Everything else can either make money, or at least pay for itself.
Quote from: CJennings on January 21, 2015, 08:44:13 AM
There isn't much U.S. Forest Service land in NY state 4x4American. Just a little bit in the Finger Lakes area. You can get the firewood permits on the Green Mountain National Forest in VT last I heard. I don't know if the same is true for the Finger Lakes, which is technically operated from the Rutland VT headquarters.
I don't care if it's US forest service land or state land, I wish that they'd let us do it in state land. Or some landowners would let us clean up their properties. Some sort of a system where people without much land who want firewood or sawlogs and are willing to work for it can get it. They don't have problems taking our tax money but we can't touch any downed trees on state property or on the side of the road. I saw VT had a bid system or something where you could bid on woodlots. That's cool. But it don't help me cause I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to cross in NY from out of state with firewood.
4x4
If you were in charge of a woodlot or forest, how would you set up the "free firewood" plan with the public? I'm curious... to how it might work as you see it working.
I wouldn't, because I'd be taking care of it myself. And I never said anything about free, you're putting words in my mouth. But, as you know, there are many forest fires out in the west. I've heard a few wildland fire fighters say one thing that doesn't help is the people who buy a bunch of acreage and don't manage it, they just let it go. If those landowners would let people who need wood come in and help manage the property, then the woods is cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable. They could work it out on a wood share basis, or a small fee. I had an ad on craigslist awhile back, catering to older landowners who burn wood, that I'd help do their firewood on a share basis. Because I need firewood and am willing to work for it. Plus I like spending time with old timers.
Around here the trees on the road in front of your land are yours.
QuoteIf you were in charge of a woodlot or forest, how would you set up the "free firewood" plan with the public? I'm curious... to how it might work as you see it working.
I'm interested in how you would envision this to work (take out the word free) ??
Hopefully you have an idea how a landowner (be it private, or gov't) would enable people to come and gather "wood" off their land. You mention a "system" and I'm curious (because I don't think it is very possible).
QuoteOr some landowners would let us clean up their properties. Some sort of a system where people without much land who want firewood or sawlogs and are willing to work for it can get it.
Engineer-
A cordwood saw is a good investment.New Haven Equipment sells a Yankee Woodsman.I bought one used.As BradS said treat it with respect.I try not to leave too much small stuff behind.The wood that is too small to bother skidding with the winch I cut into 8' and under lengths and bring out in the front grapple.We heat our home with a Stanley Waterford cookstove and a Mansfield soapstone stove.I understand that it is not practical for most people to do this.
"The Department of Forests, Parks and Recreation has made personal use firewood lots available to Vermont residents since the 1970's. The program's popularity has grown to the point where the demand for lots exceeds the available supply, so in 2009 the Department instituted a lottery system to distribute permits.
FPR's foresters mark the trees to be harvested in 3-cord lots. These lots are generally located adjacent to woods roads which are accessible by four-wheel drive vehicles. The standing wood on these lots is sold to Vermont residents who are successful in the lottery. Permittees must cut and haul their own wood and mechanical skidding is not allowed. Firewood lots must be left in a condition acceptable to the forester in charge. Trees may not be left hung up, stumps must be cut close to the ground, and brush must be dragged back away from the road and well out of streams, ditches and culverts.
Permits are valid for one season (generally from early July to early October depending on weather and road conditions) and cost $30 each ($10 per cord). Participants must sign a waiver of liability and permit fees are non-refundable.
All participants are strongly encouraged to learn chainsaw safety skills before using this equipment.
There is no application fee. Applications are limited to one per household and applicants may make a first and a second choice. Please return between January 2nd and 16th to enter the lottery."
-http://www.vtfpr.org/energy/for_energy_roadside_fuelwood.cfm
I wish they would do this in NY.
If some landowners wanted their woods cleaned up in exchange for some firewood or $ they could get on the list.
Any chance they have this in NH? How would one find out?
Nevermind. Some hard core googling provided half an answer. http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/whitemountain/passes-permits/forestproducts
I'm not sure if they do, if you ask me, every state should do it!
I would never allow anyone to cut firewood on my property unless they had a current and verifiable certificate of insurance that covered them for that activity. My insurance doesn't allow me to let anyone except my own crew operate on one of my active logs jobs unless they provide proof of insurance coverage that can be verified. It's all from the lawsuit happy society that we live in. An injured firewood cutter just has to claim they're working for the contractor or landowner "cleaning up" and there's the lawsuit.
I had a guy get really mad at me a few years ago after we cut some maple on the farm woodlots. My wife and I knew him and his wife distantly. He found out about the tops, decided we were best friends and was insistent that I let him and his BIL cut firewood and wouldn't take no for an answer. He even had his wife talk to my wife about it. We both got the sob story about them having cut firewood 50 miles away and how this would be so much better for them. I'm sure it would have been. The last time I talked to him I told him again that if he showed me proof of insurance coverage that covered anyone who would be here involved in harvesting firewood they could cut otherwise if I caught him on the property he would be arrested.
Dad and I cut firewood for two seasons until it started to get soft. Probably half of the tops went back on the ground. That was better than lawsuits.
The MiDNR sells firewood permits that allow for 15 full cords of firewood to be cut from a specified area. The wood must all be dead and down. No standing dead trees can be cut. They used to let people slide on this when there was so much dead and dying elm but not anymore.
Its a darn shame. Everything is a liability nowadays. Around here, alot of the snowmachine trails go through private property. The snowmobile clubs that maintain the trails get the permission from the landowner. If a rider has an accident on the landowners property, the landowner is not held liable. If they did something like that for firewooders, and the gov't was involved i'm sure landowners would be fine with it.
Personally I would never allow the general public to harvest wood from my property. Say you get the liability matter resolved, what happens when somebody drops a live tree? What if they decide to throw a cigarette butt on the ground and start a fire? Leave a gate open for "just a minute" then drive off while my cattle wander out? No good deed goes unpunished, and I can see this being no exception. I won't even say sorry, I actually have a friend coming over Saturday who needs some firewood, its already cut, he is bringing his own splitter and we will load it onto my dump trailer and bring it over. I have no problem being generous, but the general public is off limits.
(I wouldn't either) But there's some people out there who have more money and land than they know what to do with and maybe they would.
OP-
That's why we waste so much wood in the USA.
In many cases the extra labor involved makes it more expensive than it is worth. Also it isn't wasted to leave it laying on the ground to rot. It can provide food and homes for all sorts of wildlife. And once it rots it helps the soil and ties up carbon, both good things.
If you cut a tree in a yard where you need to clean it up then it makes sense to cut up even the smallest branches for firewood cause whatever you don't cut up you still need to remove. If it is in the woods it will reach a certain size where it is not worth cutting any more (for each person that size will be different.
Also if you pile the tops in strategic places you can create great hunting conditions for small game and upland birds. As well as runways for deer hunting.
You can also use the tops to protect other plants.
Years ago, James River Corp -formerly Brown Company- let me do a pre-commercial thinning of the hardwoods in a young softwood stand. It provided me with a lot of firewood, and gave them a free silvicultural intervention. I paid no stumpage, but I believe I had to sign a waiver of liability.
Maybe this concept would work today.
Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 07:58:40 PM
I wouldn't, because I'd be taking care of it myself. And I never said anything about free, you're putting words in my mouth. But, as you know, there are many forest fires out in the west. I've heard a few wildland fire fighters say one thing that doesn't help is the people who buy a bunch of acreage and don't manage it, they just let it go. If those landowners would let people who need wood come in and help manage the property, then the woods is cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable. They could work it out on a wood share basis, or a small fee. I had an ad on craigslist awhile back, catering to older landowners who burn wood, that I'd help do their firewood on a share basis. Because I need firewood and am willing to work for it. Plus I like spending time with old timers.
Whoa there partner! I live "out in the west", and this type of management is my business. That being said;
I wouldn't listen too close to those "wildland fire fighters" if I were you. Since they're working for a "government agency", what they are saying is like the pot calling the kettle black. Most of the wild fires start on Forest Service, BLM, or some other government land that is in such a poor state of management because of having to fight all of the environmental wacko's to get any "management" done, and then burns across private land that may, or may not have been managed. Either way they are generally moonscaped after the fire goes through (at least in my part of the country). The Forest Service has their hands tied, so they aren't all to blame. But don't lay the blame on the private land owners.
Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 10:00:54 PM
Its a darn shame. Everything is a liability nowadays. Around here, alot of the snowmachine trails go through private property. The snowmobile clubs that maintain the trails get the permission from the landowner. If a rider has an accident on the landowners property, the landowner is not held liable. If they did something like that for firewooders, and the gov't was involved i'm sure landowners would be fine with it.
I agree that it's a darn shame. But all of the benefits of being trustworthy ended when a man's word quit being his bond. Also, the government being involved might cause a lot of land owners to shy away from your idea. What was the old joke about; "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."?
Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 10:26:54 PM
(I wouldn't either) But there's some people out there who have more money and land than they know what to do with and maybe they would.
OP-
That's why we waste so much wood in the USA.
Hahaha!
I've worked for some pretty wealthy individuals, and I've never met one that had more than they knew what to do with. That's how they got it, and how they are able to hold on to it...they know exactly what to do with it.
Another thing to consider is the fact that the more money and land that you have, the greater the liability.
I think a small land owner that didn't have much would be more likely to let you cut wood on their property than someone who has a lot to loose.
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Re: Why do we waste so much wood in the USA?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 02:09:21 pm »
Quote
Around here, when a farmer buys an adjacent piece of property (tillable land), they will take out the fence line, which of course is littered with trees (sometimes a mile long or longer). They usually use a bulldozer/crawler, cut it, and push it into a pile and set it on fire. Same goes for old farmsteads. If there are some really good sized hardwoods, some of the trunks will be salvaged, but for the most part, same MO, push and burn.
The thing I can't figure out is for years the DNR and Dep of Ag has paid farmers to keep some land in CRP for wildlife, why can't we get a little $ to farmers so they would quit pushing miles of fencerow into a pile and burning it. Its such a waste of wood and people wonder why the quail, pheasant, rabbit etc. are dwindling in southern WI, Iowa and Illinois? I would never blame a farmer for wanting a few extra acres to boost yield when grain prices are high, BUT didn't the country learn their lesson back in the dust bowl days, erosion of your best topsoil? That's why fence/tree rows were put in? I would think there would be a happy medium, but maybe I'm too optimistic. I agree I would not allow the average joe to cut wood on my property, just can't be too careful these days. However the amount of hardwood being bulldozed and burned as waste is staggering. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ smiley_eek_dropjaw
Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on January 21, 2015, 09:43:52 AM
I too don't like to waste wood. I process down pretty small, 3" or so. Having a buzz saw was the best thing I ever made for this type of work. I pile up the limbs that are 3" to 6" or so off to the side of my larger logs. When I cut and split the larger pieces I'll fill my dumptruck about 3/4 full than top it off with the limbs as I cut them on the buzz saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26694/004.JPG)
I like your setup. How well does it work with that little engine? I have been looking for a belt pulley so I can run one off my tractor. That style is cheap, where as the shaft driven ones are pricey.
"Most of the wild fires start on Forest Service, BLM, or some other government land that is in such a poor state of management because of having to fight all of the environmental wacko's to get any "management" done, and then burns across private land that may, or may not have been managed."
Not here. Our local fires start from people shooting during the dry season (one time a guy firing a 50 caliber with tracers!) or from logging operations, and not on public land. At least the loggers have fire trucks around, and put the fires out quickly. I saw where one fire burned up a bunch of young trees, where it started, and petered out where it tried to go into a patch of BLM because the trees were too big and there wasn't enough flammable material on the ground. If it had got up to the crown that would have been a different story.
A old logger I get logs from tells me that mankind interfering with fires is why we have so many diseases and all the brush and junk around. He firmly believes that fires are good for the forests. If you manage your land properly, I reckon that's real good too.
Quote from: 4x4American on February 02, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
A old logger I get logs from tells me that mankind interfering with fires is why we have so many diseases and all the brush and junk around. He firmly believes that fires are good for the forests. If you manage your land properly, I reckon that's real good too.
Someone has to take care of it
properly. Either human or mother nature. If we do it wrong, mother nature will correct us. Obviously that includes a lot of fire and brimstone, just like our mothers did to us.
Up here, the Federally managed lands are, as a rule, more poorly managed than other public agencies lands. We had a huge windstorm blow through 3 summers back, and there is still many acres of 100 year old pine laying on the ground on USFS land to the west of our property. I hear they are going to get a chipping contractor in there, I hope so because it is a huge fire hazard.
To the OP, we leave so much wood waste in the woods because it's not profitable to get it out. I wish there were better systems in place to make use of tops and such, maybe small scale firewooders or something. There is a cycle where wood chips become a hot commodity, and loggers gear up for whole tree chipping. Every few years the markets tank and most of them go bankrupt. Then all the tops stay in the woods again.
A portion of the answer to the OP's question of the reason for wood-waste is that I think the land owners liability and resultant fear of litigation due to the good intentioned weekend chain-sawyer that gets hurt doing something he really isn't experienced at....
My older brother, a retired forester, could give an answer to the governments reasoning, but it would end up being a 10 page dissertation at the minimum.
What I have a problem with is the burn-pits on the highway or other large construction sites where dozens upon dozens of trees at a time are dozed into pits 20' deep or deeper and 60' long or longer and burned, combustion air being provided by a Cat powered blower that's 15 or 20' wide. Once burned, the pits are filled in with crushed limestone or clay and sheepsfooted in to 95% compaction then covered with soil. No one benefits from this type of waste, not even the remaining forestation, bugs or four legged critters.
I've never seen the burn pits you mention, but I think a more reasonable alternative would be to run all those trees through a whole-tree chipper and use them for biomass, or even spray them back out onto the site and use them as an organic layer underneath the final topsoil.
Referring back to my original post - when a logging operation ends, what happens to all those chunks off the butt of the tree that get trimmed off by the processor? I have seen photos and video of massive piles of spruce, fir and cedar chunks where, if they were all dropped in my yard, I'd have firewood for years and I wouldn't complain a bit.
We had the wooded portion of our farm logged out about 8 years ago. Maybe 40 acres. Much of it by now is too rotten to use but i'm still finding firewood logs all over the place. I've taken at least 25 cords out of there.
Quote from: Engineer on February 09, 2015, 08:11:32 AM
Referring back to my original post - when a logging operation ends, what happens to all those chunks off the butt of the tree that get trimmed off by the processor? I have seen photos and video of massive piles of spruce, fir and cedar chunks where, if they were all dropped in my yard, I'd have firewood for years and I wouldn't complain a bit.
I used to get wood cutting permits from Weyerhaeuser and Boise Cascade, to cut wood from their slash piles. A lot of it just gets burnt. I just walked through a new clear cut near me and saw all those butt ends in a pile, and I still want to get the firewood from them even though I have more than I can use from my PC thinning operations on my own property.
The logging operations that I have seen operating in my little slice of heaven (Eastern pan handle of WV) not only cut timber but firewood too. Now the 3 operations I have been able to see up close are all small operations. 5 guys or less. They cut timber, haul pulp and make a large stack of firewood and sell that too. The landowner gets a cut of it all.