If given a choice what which do you feel is more beneficial as a first purchase to add value for lumber resale? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Fred
I own both. My opinion would be to get the planer first. Jointer not too essential unless you are doing your own cabinet work.
James
planer for sure! 2 sided would be better :)
Planner for sure!
I disagree. If you are selling hardwoods for fine construction, get the jointer. Techniclly speaking, a rough sawn board should be joined before planed. You can sell your products hit and miss on one side. This would show grain for customer and allow them to take home and shoot thru their planer(Most woodworkers have a planer not always a big (12+)jointer) to desired thickness. This may after short time with some sales warrant the planer purchase and you could still sell hit and miss, and then add s4s.
If you are selling construction lumber and siding and such, the jointer doesn't need to be used at all.
Here is a long thread with lots and lots on the topic of jointers, mostly lauding them over planers.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,78440.msg1190444.html#msg1190444
As previously stated, most of the guys seem to use these for cabinet work but there is a lot of good information there.
I own both, but would go with the planer first. I sell my lumber skip planed. It gives the customer a good look at the grain and any defects. I plane to 1" or 15/16". This leaves some meat for them to work with. If I joint wood it's by the hour. You never know how many passes it will take to get a flat surface. It can be wasteful also. I don't know how long a board the customer will need. If I have a 10 foot board with a slight bow I'm going to take a lot of wood off to get it flat. If he needs a 2 foot piece out of that board then it's easy with little waste.
speaking from dreams here, so take it for what it's worth, a planer first if this is the limit, but keep in mind a good molder. I know set up are or can be at times time consuming, but, think of the potential at the end of the day.
I'm a cabinet maker and I use both. Most woodworkers who really care about material stability will let the wood acclimate to their shop and then work through the steps of jointing. First one face, then one edge then surface planed with the freshly jointed face down, then ripped through the table saw and finally edge jointed. This makes for a very true board. If a guy is really anal about stability, he will go through the process and stop just short of the finished size to allow the new material tension to acclimate and stabilize, then finish on another day. If the material is planed by the sawmill, it would be for the purpose of sizing the thickness to be closer to the end use. Most guys in the trade prefer a 13/16" or 7/8" rough planed for a 3/4" final. But fine woodworkers prefer 1" material to allow for the fore-mentioned processing. I've never heard of a supplier offering jointed lumber, however, single straight line ripped, rough planed is the go-to for many shops. S4S is usually sold in home centers for DIY'ers and not for pro shops. I suggest only adding value that is true value for your end user. That being said, go with planed material first, then single straight lined second. Leave the jointing to the shop. This whole discussion is based on an assumption that we are talking about hardwood. Dimensional softwood is another topic. There, S4S would be a good option.
Have you considered a drum or belt sander instead?
I have a 36" drum sander that I put 40# paper on for sanding rough sawmill lumber.
It works great and if I hit a piece of metal it just sands it down. No planer knives to remove, grind, and reinstall.
I've never understood why jointers are half the width of planers. I think they should be close to the same size. I would go for the 12" jointer first because 12" planers can be had pretty cheap.
For me, there's no doubt planing is the most important step after kiln drying, and I consider it an essential process for my business which I always do, or pay someone else to do, every week. Planing (really 95% skip planing to 15/16", generally cleaning up one side and most of the other) allows me to accomplish several tasks with one process that adds significant value and convenience for both me and my customer. Planing cleans up the lumber to make it more presentable and easier to visualize to the customer, allows me to grade it easier, assures I have no hidden sticker stain or drying defects (extremely important), shows the true colors of the wood, allows me to stack and rack it easier, makes more stable packs for inventory, and makes it easier for customers with lunchbox planers to bring it to their final desired dimension.
I mostly sell high quality hardwood to retail customers, however, the more wholesale a customer is, the less board dressing they need, as they will have the equipment to make it the way they want it.
I ran a few trials where I would put un-planed lumber on the sales rack, right next to the same stuff that had been planed. The planed lumber would sell much faster than the unplaned, even though I charged significantly more for it.
I did the same with straight line ripped and the SLR was about a wash, with no significant increase in sales price. What I mean is that customers preferred the SLR boards, but wouldn't pay for it.
Just my experience, others may vary. Everybody's market is different.
YH
as others have said...get the planer. a dedicated jointer is really a cabinetmakers tool. a 2 sided planer joints on the bottom and planes on the top and would be the perfect tool for dressing rough lumber. I have an 8" Powermatic jointer that is big enough for 75% of what I do. If I need to joint a wider board, I do it on my mill and then take it to the planer.
As a sawmill owner and a cabinetmaker, buy the planer if you can get a good price. We have a 24" wide. Most buyers would just want their wood skip planed or possibly thicknesssed. If they are fussy eough to ask about jointing, they are much better off purchasing rough cut. You aren't going to joint boards much longer than 8' anyway. Our schedule would be, cut wood to rough lengths first, then joint and plane. As said earlier, most times you would want the wood in your shop to acclimate a bit to your conditions before final sizing anyway. Now if you find a deal, don't pass it up!
To All,
Thanks for all the replies, this is all new to me and having your input is a big help. Haven't decided if I will just cut for customers or do some cutting for resale. I wanted to get a feel for what would better serve the customer.
Thanks,
Fred
a planer only makes two faces parallel it does not make the faces flat!!!
If I were to buy lumber, I would much rather buy boards that have been jointed on one face, than planed on both faces. Most hobby woodworkers would probably agree. I would guess that 90% of hobby guys have 6" jointers. They can square up the edges easily with a 6" jointer and they can plane it themselves with their benchtop planers. Planing before jointing is just wasting wood.
For those that already know, just ignore my post.......
For those who are new to milling rough sawn timber, the procedure is as follows:
1. Flatten one "face" along it's width by using the jointer first.
2. Now, with the flattened face against the jointers fence, joint an edge of the board. You now have a board that has one side flat, with a perpendicular edge.
3. Now, to the planer. With the flattened face down, run the board through your planer. This creates a board of even thickness with both sides flat and parallel to each
other.
4. Take this 3 sided milled board to your table saw. With the jointed edge run against the fence, rip your board to your desired width. Run this fresh 4th edge over the
jointer. You now have a board that is flat and square, and equal thickness throughout. S4S.
Using your planer first is a mistake. The board must be flattened before proceeding to your planer.
In an ideal situation, your jointer and planer are of equal capacity in size. If you work with wide boards frequently, you need to have the capacity to both joint and plane the width you are using.
If I need to flatten a board wider than my 16" jointer, I use a hand plane to do it. My planer has an 18" capacity. At some point, I plan on finding 24" capacity in both. Nice to have the capacity for wider slabs, if you do that sort of work. I do.
Jeff
Good post Jeff !
Jeff is correct on the order of jointing and planing. I'm just not sure someone purchasing lumber from a mill would want the lumber to be jointed right off the bat. Is this wood already kiln dried? If not, jointing is a waste of time and really should just be sold as rough cut. As I said earlier, I joint wood after it is cut to rough lengths and sizes needed. It's more of a woodshop process based on the project you're building. Most people are best of buying their wood rough sawn in my opinion. If someone wants wood surfaced for flooring or paneling in longer lengths it usually doesn't even get jointed, just straight lined and planed, and edged with t&g.
Quote from: johnnyllama on February 11, 2015, 07:54:22 PM
If someone wants wood surfaced for flooring or paneling in longer lengths it usually doesn't even get jointed, just straight lined and planed, and edged with t&g.
Most large molders I have seen have a jointing head as the first head in the machine.
Woodworker9...good post. I'd love to work in your shop. ;)
Fred...keep in mind that as long as you're sawing good logs and drying your lumber properly, you should have a majority of boards That are straight enough for skip planing and won't need to be jointed. in every batch, you will always have a few that need extra attention. it's those boards that will need a pass or two through a jointer before planing. some will take the extra time with them, others, depending on what they are, will just toss them in the cull pile. As I mentioned earlier, a 2 sided planer consolidates 2 separate operations, greatly reduces handling and produces a better product than skip planing alone.
I have a small jointer and a 20" planer, because I'm not a for hire pro, more like a novice wood worker. It's easier and quicker to get a flat edge with a jointer, but very doable to get a flat surface with a planer. However a jointer can't make two surfaces parallel like a planer can. Because I don't work with wide boards all day everyday I simply flatten a wide boards with a sled and shims and run it thru the planer, then flip it and run it thru again to get two parallel surfaces. With a good blade in the table saw, two flat parallel sides, and a long fence I can get a glue joint edge on the sides of a wide board.
This is my method because I can't justify the expense yet of a wide jointer for the occasional wide boards that I use.
I say the get the big planer first.
Adding to my earlier post about process, it's always extremely important to allow the rough wood to acclimate to your shop before working it. In my shop, I have a wood storage rack on the wall where I can keep 1000 bf (give or take) stacked and stickered for the acclimation process. I am always thinking ahead to upcoming projects, and I make sure that I have the proper amount of timber in whatever species I need for upcoming jobs.
I also NEVER thickness wood to final dimensions on the first go-round. I always leave however much I can, and repeat the process after several days of re-acclimation before proceeding to cutting up parts and performing joinery.
This is also based on my use of hardwood lumber for making cabinets and furniture. I wouldn't waste my time for rough building lumber.
Using a planer sled is an excellent way of accomplishing the same thing that a jointer does, and can be a great workaround to having a wide jointer if you only need to flatten wide boards every once in a while. However, I will tell you, as a guy who used to use a planer sled before I got my first wide jointer 15 years ago, it is a time consuming process, and not very efficient if your volume increases.
As a planemaker, I also must add that you can flatten any width board by hand, also. I have quite a few customers who do all their stock preparation.....flattening and thicknessing.........by hand with planes. I do this myself for projects for myself where speed is not a criteria, and it is very rewarding, and also a great workout.
An excellent byproduct of hand planing is that you have plenty of shavings left over to start wood stove fires with. In the colder months here, my day starts out every morning with shavings and scraps in the woodstove.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for the posts I too prefer to do all my planing by hand because I enjoy the work out. :)
Fred
Quote from: Dudaks on February 08, 2015, 05:32:33 PM
If given a choice what which do you feel is more beneficial as a first purchase to add value for lumber resale? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Fred
I'm not disputing the pros and cons of planing or jointing or SLR, everybody has their own opinions and I respect that. Since the question was directed about lumber resale, and value added by a process on the product for increased profit, then I will say that in my experience, one of the best ways to increase the value of lumber for sale is proper skip planing. For low grade wood, which includes severely cupped, bowed, or warped, I sell it as is, investing effort and money in poor wood is a net zero game.
However, investing effort or money into planing, or improving the usability or appearance of high value wood only increases its value further, and in my case, the net return for two sided skip planing is "significant."
For example, for this one load of my kiln dried premium lumber going on a road trip to 2 sided Pinheiro planer, the real net value increase (cost of planing vs return in sales price) was just slightly more than $3,000.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~77.jpg)
YH
I guess the real answer to his question is "it depends on your market". I have a wide jointer for my woodworking, not lumber sales. The only luck I have had selling lumber has been selling it dirt cheap. My local market won't support high dollar lumber sales so any extra effort I put into the lumber is wasted.
Agreeing with all of the jointing first, skip planing first, and not doing either perspectives above.
But perspective is key. Sawyer, customer, customer's knowledge and ability, wood purpose, green, air-dry, kiln dry, thickness, grade, species are some of the variables in the perspective. I don't sell wood, but I saw a fair amount, and work it some. When custom sawing, it's time for me to turn off the saw and have a discussion of perspective, when the customer says "just an eighth over, to save work planing". ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o