I need to make a ERC table top that will be 1 1/2" thick. Do you use biscuits or dowels or what to stick the joints together? It will be about 36" wide. Maybe 3 joints.
I use biscuits. Not for strength, but to align the boards before gluing. That really makes for a smooth top and greatly reduces the sanding time.
I usually glue it up without biscuits (mainly because I don't have a joiner) and then take it in to the local cabinet shop and they run it through their wide belt sander. When it is done, I ask the owner "how much do I owe you?" and his usual reply is "How does $10 sound". It saves me at least $10 worth of labor in sanding alone. If it were 32" instead of 36", I would just prepare two 16" panels, joint and plane the panels, and then glue the two panels together using plenty of cauls. Some final sanding required
Most of the time I use cauls. I make the cauls on the jointer with a slight taper. These are about 24" long with about 1/8" of taper. Packing tape on the face so glue doesn't stick. This pair will handle up to 1 3/4" thick. You only need two for a table top.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8370.JPG)
I do have a biscuit joiner and use it, just not for table tops.
After the panel is glued I rent time on a wide belt sander. The price is cheap but the trouble is running down somebody in the shop that knows how to run it. I've been there half a day tracking the guy down. Next time I'm going to use Jake's guy.
I also have the biggest PC belt sander made and can do a good job with it. I learned 45 years ago in a cabinet shop....it takes practice to get it right.
I have been glueing and clamping. regular gorilla glue. good Luck with it!
Quote from: Larry on April 23, 2015, 09:31:58 PM
Most of the time I use cauls. I make the cauls on the jointer with a slight taper. These are about 24" long with about 1/8" of taper. Packing tape on the face so glue doesn't stick. This pair will handle up to 1 3/4" thick. You only need two for a table top.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8370.JPG)
I do have a biscuit joiner and use it, just not for table tops.
After the panel is glued I rent time on a wide belt sander. The price is cheap but the trouble is running down somebody in the shop that knows how to run it. I've been there half a day tracking the guy down. Next time I'm going to use Jake's guy.
I also have the biggest PC belt sander made and can do a good job with it. I learned 45 years ago in a cabinet shop....it takes practice to get it right.
I am confused with the taper. Do you mean a slight bow? What does the taper do?
If you clamp with straight cauls, you may not get much if any pressure in the middle of the caul length and only on the ends where the clamps are. The taper allows it to exert pressure over the whole length of the caul.
I also use cauls w/o biscuits or dominoes. Typically Titebond 2 and I use Titebond 3 if it will be outdoors. The problem with biscuits is if you ever need to shorten the top you may saw through them, creating an ugly table end.
I learned an easy way to make cauls if you have to make a bunch of them. I will have to sketch it out if anybody is interested.
Oz ark, the taper allows the caul to provide relatively constant pressure along its length when clamped in pairs.
Quote from: LeeB on April 24, 2015, 05:42:12 AM
If you clamp with straight cauls, you may not get much if any pressure in the middle of the caul length and only on the ends where the clamps are. The taper allows it to exert pressure over the whole length of the caul.
so its really a bow not a taper. you can have a caul that is tapered from 3"-31/2" but it will still be straight, or am I missing what you are saying.
Clamps and cauls and biscuits all. Experience is important. Do some experimenting first on some thick scraps. Watch out for "squeeze-out" from too much clamping pressure.
Don't ask too much from the glue to hold a joint together just because you can squeeze it shut with the clamps. Sharpen up the hand planes and fine tune the joints until the boards want to lay tightly together. Then you glue it up! 8)
Quote from: ozarkgem on April 24, 2015, 06:35:59 AM
so its really a bow not a taper. you can have a caul that is tapered from 3"-31/2" but it will still be straight, or am I missing what you are saying.
That would be correct, tapered smaller on the ends than in the middle. As you clamp the ends down tight to the edges of the glue up it will be able to put plenty of pressure in the middle also. Both cauls would be tapered the same and the 'point' would be in the middle. The lines below are a bit exaggerated but should maybe let you see what I'm trying to explain.
)l(
scsmith42, now ya got me curious. What is your caul making method?
I use a big Amana glue joint cutter in the shaper for most unless it is a light wood where the joint will stand out, and I try to keep my colors close. Comes out flat as they are perfectly square and self aligning. Very little sanding. Stock must be well prepared.
Something like maple I don't like the look of the joint and will use bowed cauls like pictured above.
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=173417#top_display_media
Here is a Makore top done this way.
never heard of a caul before, like mm says I learned something today. I use the bisquits on all my glue ups, if it get thicker than an inch and a half im likely to double stack the bisquits. one look at my bathroom cabinets will tell you where I learned about biskit placement prior to machining.
sc, I to would like to see your method to make them.
I used to make them out of scraps. Took three hands to use them. Than they would mysteriously disappear after a few months. Now I put all thread in the ends and they are a pleasure to use. They don't disappear either.
I have made quick and simple table tops just gluing and clamping together and a few craigh pioleys and screws to hold it together while I am adding another board then sand it all up
I you are doing just a few tables , a flat work bench with clamps and cauls is the way to go. If you have a restaurant full of tables to do then the glue joint cutter-head and a clamp system is much faster. By far , I mostly just clamp to a true flat table. Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/glue_joint_cutterhead.JPG) A Garniga glue joint cutterhead. Weight is around ten pounds ! When you squeeze the boards , they align perfectly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/glue_up_rack.JPG) A gluing rack. With this setup quite a few tables per day is possible.
Quote from: tule peak timber on April 24, 2015, 11:03:12 AM
I you are doing just a few tables , a flat work bench with clamps and cauls is the way to go. If you have a restaurant full of tables to do then the glue joint cutter-head and a clamp system is much faster. By far , I mostly just clamp to a true flat table. Rob
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/glue_joint_cutterhead.JPG) A Garniga glue joint cutterhead. Weight is around ten pounds ! When you squeeze the boards , they align perfectly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/glue_up_rack.JPG) A gluing rack. With this setup quite a few tables per day is possible.
I like that system. Should be strong. Just don't have a shaper that big.
Quote from: bucknwfl on April 24, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
I have made quick and simple table tops just gluing and clamping together and a few craigh pioleys and screws to hold it together while I am adding another board then sand it all up
[/quote
what are craigh pioleys?
Quote from: LeeB on April 24, 2015, 07:52:54 AM
Quote from: ozarkgem on April 24, 2015, 06:35:59 AM
so its really a bow not a taper. you can have a caul that is tapered from 3"-31/2" but it will still be straight, or am I missing what you are saying.
That would be correct, tapered smaller on the ends than in the middle. As you clamp the ends down tight to the edges of the glue up it will be able to put plenty of pressure in the middle also. Both cauls would be tapered the same and the 'point' would be in the middle. The lines below are a bit exaggerated but should maybe let you see what I'm trying to explain.
)l(
can you tell me how you make the bow in your cauls? I guess you are using Oak. I have some Hedge I could use.
Ozark, You can use straight cauls with wax paper and a small standoff spacer at each point you wish to pressure. Insert thin wood wedges here and there as necessary to "pin" everything down. The 99 cent wood wedge packs from any big box store are super useful. All of this assumes you are working from a "true' table. If not,,,, breakout the straight edge and string and you can loft off of anything.Pick a slow setting glue and check the accuracy of the glue-up every which way you can think of. Hope this helps ! Rob
Quote from: ozarkgem on April 24, 2015, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: bucknwfl on April 24, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
I have made quick and simple table tops just gluing and clamping together and a few craigh pioleys and screws to hold it together while I am adding another board then sand it all up
[/quote
what are craigh pioleys?
Sorry fat fingered the keys again. Craig joint screws
Quote from: stanwelch on April 24, 2015, 08:14:10 AM
scsmith42, now ya got me curious. What is your caul making method?
Stan, here is my process. I start with some 2X stock, such as a 2 x 4 for cauls less than 36" long, and a 2 x 6 for cauls between 36" - 60" long. The blanks are S4S'd and left about 6" - 8" longer than the width of the top that I'm gluing.
Next I saw a cut through the blank from each end, leaving about 8" or so of uncut blank in the middle.
Then, I will spread open the ends of the cut and insert a small wedge. The wedge diameter is based upon the length of the caul; for every 1' of caul length I increase the wedge diameter by 1/4". Thus a 2' caul uses a 1/2" wedge, a 3' caul a 3/4" wedge, etc.
The next step in the process is to clamp either a board or a channel iron to the fence on my tablesaw in order to make an extended fence. The fence needs to be extended on the infeed side to be equal to or longer than the length of the caul. After the fence extension is in place I will run the caul blank through the tablesaw, trimming of the outer sides of the board to be flush with the middle portion of the caul. The final step is to remove the wedges and cut through the remaining portion in the center of the board. Voila - you have a caul!
Once you have the process down you can make them very quickly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/shop_made_cauls.jpg)
good idea . will give it a shot
Quote from: Lud on April 24, 2015, 07:48:29 AM
...Don't ask too much from the glue to hold a joint together just because you can squeeze it shut with the clamps. Sharpen up the hand planes and fine tune the joints until the boards want to lay tightly together. Then you glue it up! 8)
Couldn't agree more. The clamps and cauls are there just to hold the work firmly until your glue is dry. There's really no substitute for flat lumber and well jointed edges.
Larry...Those are some really nice cauls. I've been known to use scraps of bowed lumber and other jerry-rigged methods in place of proper tools like yours. I'll be adding those to my to do list. ;)