I have a job coming up that will require a lot of box joints. The boards will be 3-1/4" wide and about 1/2" thick. I was looking into stacking 1/4" straight cutters on my shaper spindle and doing them on the shaper, but I am getting sticker shock at 7 shaper cutters and six 1/4" spacers. I bought my stackable box joint saw blade set for what one shaper cutter costs. It started putting ideas in my head about mounting saw blades on the shaper spindle... somebody tell me thats a bad idea.
be very careful with the blade speed you may not can find high enough rpm blades to run on shaper. most of my blades are only rated at 5900 rpms the grizzly shaper im looking at will only go down to 7000 rpms :-\ :)
If you can be satisfied with the rpm difference mentioned, then the saw blade usually doesn't give a flat bottom to the cut. But may just need some extra grinding of the teeth.
Will be interested in what you decide to try.
I like your facebook page. You have some good pictures. If I had a page I would give you a like.
I was thinking the Harbor Freight 4" circle blades might work. It doesn't say how thick but they do have the right speed rating. Have to bore for your spindle but I think I have that figured out now.
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-24t-mini-table-circular-saw-blade-61243.html
Another idea is there joiner blades but I think there only 3/32" thick and a bit higher price. They may have some other blade that would work.
If I had some steel round I might be able to turn spacers on the lathe.
Jake , if you opt for saw blades, look at rip blades as they have a flat bottom out for what you want to do.Freeborntool has probably the cheapest groovers , and they work fine. Look at Schmidt for spacers. Rob
http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SBOX8-Cutter-4-Inch-grooves/dp/B000ASGV1E I was looking at the freeborn groovers. They are actually cheaper than grizzly and they are made in the us. Go figure. If I used saw blades, I would use the freud box joint blades and they're rated at 9,000 rpm. My oliver shaper is 7,200 rpm. They are flat top grind and I would have the ability to switch them around to do either 1/4" grooves or 3/8" grooves.
Jake, if your shaper has enough vertical travel, you should be able to hook up one of them digital readouts made for planers. Then you wouldn.t need but one cutter, just make multiple passes..
I think I am going to give up on the 8" diameter saw blades. That's be a lot of rotating carbide and it would probably sound like a helicopter taking off.
Quote from: Larry on April 24, 2015, 11:37:53 AM
I was thinking the Harbor Freight 4” circle blades might work. It doesn't say how thick but they do have the right speed rating. Have to bore for your spindle but I think I have that figured out now.
I may need to give these a try. @ $5 a pop, it sure would be cheap.
Just remember that pictures of your setup will be greatly appreciated when you get it all figured out.
What size is your spindle? I swing some pretty big cutters an my Unitronix but I have 1 1/8" spindles. I have been thinking about doing the same thing myself. I like box joints, they never fail, but are a paint to make.
Amana makes this.
http://www.amanatool.com/content/index/detail?id=51
Reasonably priced and I am very happy with all of the cutters I have from Amana. There is also this...
http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5731-insert-adjustable-grooving-cutter-with-scorer-8-24mm.aspx?variantids=8972,0&affiliateid=10054?source=pricegrabber&gdftrk=gd
I have one of those adjustable groovers and it works well, but you would not be able to stack close enough for multiple cuts at one pass because of the body.
If your spindle/hood are big enough, I think the 8" size would give better results. I know I have slotting cutters in different diameters and the larger ones do a better job, especially coming out of the cut.
Larry
Curious what you come up with as well, Larry
Jake,
Have you considered a corrugated shaper head and some custom ground HHS knives? I've had custom knives made up to match many profiles, plus once you have the head you can use it for any knife pattern. If your boring out a 5/8 arbor hole to fit your router spindle you run the risk of getting slightly off center and out of balance. Plus if anything goes wrong, at 7,000 + rpm's it could be a mess! I've got a 4" tall head I use for crown, etc. Or, just get the Freud set, make a sled for the table saw with an index pin, and go at it. The advantage to this approach is unlimited box depth, where as on the shaper you would be limited to a fairly shallow box depth, based on spindle height.
www.wmooreprofiles.com
www.cggschmidt.com
Ive thought about insert tooling, but at 1" depth on a knife with 1/4" wide cutters, id think the knife would be too weak. I have a powermatic shaper with a 1" spindle and an oliver with a 1.25" spindle. The oliver doesnt have a miter slot, but that can be worked around. The Freud box joint blades are a two blade set. Id need seven sets being 14 individual saw blades at 8" diameter. And I know a machinist thats already set up for boring out saw blades. He aint real bright but hes a decent machinist. ;D
how many are you making?
Do you have a table saw jig? I don't think I'd want to use a shaper....
I have a table saw jig and it just takes too long. The job will be building crates. On the table saw I have to make seven passes per end per slat. Thats 14 per slat or 140 passes per crate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25938/20150425_195733.jpg)
I would clamp those slats together and batch cut them with my jig on the tablesaw using the Freud box cutter set.
Quote from: hackberry jake on April 25, 2015, 02:30:18 PM
And I know a machinist thats already set up for boring out saw blades. He aint real bright but hes a decent machinist. ;D
I heard that! ;D
Nice looking crate and original to. :)
cool ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
I do Large kitchen drawers like that with slats but use 1/2' spacing. 1/2" would cut you cutter requirement in half. Still looks good.
Still won't be able to do the middle/end of the crate with the shaper because of reach I suspect.
What about wedged through tenons? Good look, strong, and you could set up your CNC to do most if not all of the work. It would be stronger on the bottom as well.
Quote from: gfadvm on April 25, 2015, 09:22:52 PM
I would clamp those slats together and batch cut them with my jig on the tablesaw using the Freud box cutter set.
This is what I would do also.
Quote from: hackberry jake on April 25, 2015, 09:04:02 PM
I have a table saw jig and it just takes too long. The job will be building crates. On the table saw I have to make seven passes per end per slat. Thats 14 per slat or 140 passes per crate.
Those look cool! What will they be used for? Are they a practical application for a grower, shipper, etc or are they just neat crates for display? They look like they would be very sturdy.
I made one today using 1/2" fingers and used nothing but the cnc router to make the cuts. I lined six slats up on the cnc table and started it while I was cutting more parts. It worked pretty good and with 1/2" fingers I would only need four cutters for the shaper instead of seven. The pine one is the one I built today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25938/20150427_113455.jpg)
Nice craftsmanship, Jake. 8)
they look real nice.
Update. I just ordered the shaper cutters for box jointing the slats. I checked around and AHturf had by far the best deals on shaper cutters. The 1/4" cut 4" diameter straight top groovers were about half the price of a grizzly, and Freeborn cutters are American made. If you guys need shaper cutters, check em out.
http://ahturf.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=26954_22218_22220
I order cabinet hardware from those guys. Slow shipping sometimes, but great prices.
About half my shaper tooling is Freeborn with the other half Grizzly and other Chinese brands. Just a guess but I would say Freeborn stays sharp maybe four times as long as the China brands. If I was doing it as a business all my tooling would be Freeborn....cheap tooling is too expensive. :D
a box joint is really strongest end grain to end grain, is there a reason you choose that joint for the bottom? is it cosmetic or does it make the glue up easier? it seems to me you could move your bottom side slat down a use a floating panel held in place by your bottom slat and ends.
just a thought...
Quote from: jueston on May 04, 2015, 08:19:34 AM
a box joint is really strongest end grain to end grain, is there a reason you choose that joint for the bottom? is it cosmetic or does it make the glue up easier? it seems to me you could move your bottom side slat down a use a floating panel held in place by your bottom slat and ends.
just a thought...
I really just did it this way to simplify it. I only have two different parts that make the crate. The end pieces that are just small glued up panels and then cut out on the cnc router, and the slats. What would you use for the bottom panel? 1/4" hardboard comes to mind. It's pretty stgron and cheap. It might take away from the "rustic" feel though.
for that size i think 1/4 ply would work fine.
in my humble opinion, that item is a little too pretty to be rustic. i think of rustic as some roughsawn boards attached with exposed nails.
i'm not saying the bottom isn't strong enough, just saying that the joinery there seems like unnecessary complication.
i didn't realize the bottom was the same slats as the sides, making lots of the same piece is always faster, so thats a good idea if you want to knock out a lot of them.
if you changed the design to a 1/4 ply and put in dado's to hold it, it would make a lot more unique pieces, which might take more time to keep straight.
Well, Larry was right. It took a while to get them, but they came in yesterday. While I was at it, I ordered a 4" diameter rub bearing so I can use the same cutters as a poor mans spiral pattern cutter. I got two 1/4" cutters and two 1/2" cutters for more versitility. I got the T-alloy versions instead of carbide because T-alloy gets sharper than carbide and it should help minimize tear-out. I also ordered an assortment of t-bushings and spacers (which cost about the same amount as the cutters). Since one of my shapers has a 1" spindle.
I know you boys like pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25938/20150514_111602.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25938/20150514_112733.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25938/20150514_115150.jpg)
looking good---
how do those flat faced cutters put the radius in the corner?
and how do you set up the adjacent cut, just redo the spacers to match?
I havent tried the shaper yet. The piece in the picture was cut with a router bit. The sides of thr crates are cut using a router as well.
I would suggest you double nut the spindle with that setup. I usually do on any cutter that weighs over 5 pounds. Was recommended to me by an old man I trust.
Larry
That shaper just happens to have a set of nuts two threaded locking devices. Both nuts have setscrews as well.
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc
I saw this utube and thought of my friend Jake. Do a search for beehive finger joints and a whole bunch of interesting links come up.
And just to get the wheels turning, I have such an arbor that I think will do up to 12" wide. It would require some machine work. Its on a small gang rip I bought to part out.
Man, that looks like the bees knees box joints!