....are a discredit to their profession, have no conscience and should be catapulted to the moon. I had to put a new fan relay on a '99 Grand Cherokee. The dealer way is to remove the entire front of the Jeep and swap the little part. That would have been about four hours and countless twisted off bolts and screws. The YouTube cheater way is to remove one screw from the right headlight and chop a hole through the plastic bumper cover. I popped the light out and found a nice hole already chopped. That got the repair down to under ten minutes, including trying to find an 11/32" socket that would work in place of the proper metric that was missing. :D Relay wasn't bad. >:( Tracked it down to a bad electric fan. Picked up a tested one at the junk yard and thought I'd pop it in, it's only three screws after all. No, you don't just pop it in. Those three screws are facing the radiator with about 1/2" clearance. You have to remove the fan shroud. Four bolts, no waiting. Wrong again. Only one of those bolts is accessible without removing the steering box, frame, engine, glove box and at least one of the taillights. I figured that if I took the bolts out of the radiator, I could tip it forward enough to get a wrench on the shroud bolts. Not a bad idea, if I do say so myself. All you have to do is take the entire front of the Jeep off to get to them, but that should be easy, because you just did that to change the relay that wasn't bad. Or did you cheat and go to YouTube to find out where to chop a hole in to get to the top-secret-under-the-bumper-cover-Dick-Cheney-command-bunker? Yeah, I did that too. Dick was long gone, but there were plenty of WWII Army surplus spam and crackers in there. :D After locating the T30 Torx driver you can get about half of the grill screws out. Phillips for the rest. A 10mm here, a 13mm there, and about 14" of ratchet extensions, you have the bolts out of the radiator and it's flopping all over in there. You can actually get a wrench on the shroud bolts and there might be a chance of getting the fan switched. Well, time to go out and see if the new fan is the right one. The suspense is just killing me.
Yeah, I really miss my old '79 Ford.
SEVEN HOURS is the time quoted to replace the heater servo motors (which are prone to failure) in the 05 Ram. According to you-tube I can do it in under two hours if I am willing to perform a little surgery. Why do these jobs have to be so DanG difficult?
To change a headlight bulb in Tammy's malibu, you have to take off the entire front bumper/spoiler/shroud assembly of the car, and it takes about an hour. Over $100 labor to have the headlight bulb replaced if you take it to the dealer. (We don't) I can remove all the front lights and the grill completely from my 99 silverado in less than 5 minutes.
I'm forfeiting the first round to the Jeep. I have to drain the radiator to take the upper hose off. Tomorrow is another day.
Dave,
2007 gmc pickup one head light you need to take the hole air box out to change it eats one every 3 months.
Same truck needs new rear spring at 3 years old you need to drop the gas tank to get out the front bolts on the drivers side.
Drivers door latch breaks they tell me i need a new door panel $650.00 just for part fix it myself with out new door panel $200.00
They make the big bucks :D :D :D
Jim/Bruno
I think that I have at least two good general rules for the world but the world doesn't agree. The first is that if an agency wants to control or inspect some aspect of our lives, say water quality in public areas, then they have to pay for it out of their own budget not user fees, and anyone in the private sector that must participate can bill their regular hourly rate to the agency. The second is that engineers who design things have to be able to repair them in a timely manner or the design won't get approved. So if a headlight swap takes ten minutes in an average car, the new design had better take about ten minutes or you should be looking for a new profession.
I have a habit of chopping off useless crap that is getting in the way of repairing something necessary.
Dave you need to upgrade your fleet to Older vehicles. :) :) :)
The heater blend door on our 2005 Jeep is broken. 1999 to 2004 there is an aftermarket fix, less then $100 for parts and about an hour of labor. Not so for the 2005. Dealer estimate is $150 for the part, $1500 for 3 days of labor. The whole dash needs to be removed.
That is what the dealer says for our 05 Ram. There has to be an easier (and cheaper) way.
i have a ford that had trouble with the blend door. the foam that was on it to seal better some of it had come off and wouldnt let it close all the way. rather than take everything apart i sprayed it with a little carb cleaner. dissolved the foam that was caught in the door motor. works fine now
I know it would never survive EPA, safety or the follow-up lawsuits, I do dream of a simple functional transport mechanism. Grampy had a jeep, purchased of the dock in Boston after world war two. That thing worked in the orchard as a planting, mowing, pruning, spraying harvest and hunting rig. No electric windows or computer chips were needed.
I remember Volkswagon had a tin can called The Thing. The days that would seem to be The Solution!
KD
I dream of driving something pre 70s again because I know how to diagnose and fix them.
Quote from: r.man on May 23, 2015, 08:39:08 AM
I have a habit of chopping off useless crap that is getting in the way of repairing something necessary.
:D :D :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) same here but some times I go way to far and other things don't work ;D :)
I had a 1990 Dodge W150 that had a rattle under the dash. Never did anything with it until the heater control cable broke. I removed the glove box to fix that and discovered an electrical connector hanging around doing nothing. I plugged it in to a black box, pulled on it, it obviously didn't fall out. Somebody had unplugged the computer probably in an effort to improve performance.
Now a display appeared on the dash when the key was on, the ABS worked, and I actually got noticeably better gas mileage plus the rattle disappeared. A running problem during really cold weather also went away. At least I could fix some stuff on that one unlike the current ride.
I'm working a lot of OT and have several "NEW" and "YET TO BE" engineers around me. This week we got a new batch from the local university and I took one out to "HELP" with a change on a DC control board on a hunk of shop equipment. He said he had to get to meet his adviser in 3 hrs (no problem it is a 20 min job I thought.) ::) ::) ::) Yep kid who is 3rd year Electrical Engineering Student couldn't figure out how to operate a standard pair of wire strippers. (Yes the box was a disaster so I wanted to clean it up and have it wired properly.) So almost 2 hrs later he HAS to leave & still only about have done... I told him point blank that as an engineer you HAVE to make things easy to fix when it breaks kid should be ashamed for not knowing how to do simple task but then at 3rd year so should the university for having let him get that far and NOT know how to do something as simple as solder or strip a hunk of wire... :o :o >:( >:(
Mark
Exactly why I have a '78 F150 and a 2000 Tacoma. Ford is easy. Tacoma just doesn't need anything even at 207k.
It's not limited to just Automotive Engineers. Naval architects have their own fair share of yahoos that didn't concern themselves with maintaining the equipment. I've got radiator cooled engines (only morons would put radiators on anything but emergency engines on a ship) that require complete removal of the outboard one to access the inboard unit. It's only a good 3 day job. With a crew of 4 on it.
The office engineers get a slight say in designing any new build... think they ever ask us? Obviously not, what does the guy in the field with grease on his hands know!!?
Quote from: bill m on May 23, 2015, 08:46:38 AM
The heater blend door on our 2005 Jeep is broken. 1999 to 2004 there is an aftermarket fix, less then $100 for parts and about an hour of labor. Not so for the 2005. Dealer estimate is $150 for the part, $1500 for 3 days of labor. The whole dash needs to be removed.
The heater blend doors on my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee are broken. All 4 windows failed and dropped into the door because of a cheap plastic clip that broke. I have bought my last Jeep.
New cars are engineering marvels, unfortunately fixing them easily is not a design priority.
Proprietary software, multiple computers, miles of wiring, sensors and sleek packaging has made 300+ HP
high MPG a reality. So it seems the trade-off is ease of maintenance.
Makes trading them in sooner and staying inside a warranty more appealing
especially if you live in an area that uses salt on the roads.
DGDrls
I think they do it that way so you get mad and trade .
But that cost a lot of money .
Jim/Bruno
Quote from: SPIKER on May 23, 2015, 10:00:37 PM
I'm working a lot of OT and have several "NEW" and "YET TO BE" engineers around me. This week we got a new batch from the local university and I took one out to "HELP" with a change on a DC control board on a hunk of shop equipment. He said he had to get to meet his adviser in 3 hrs (no problem it is a 20 min job I thought.) ::) ::) ::) Yep kid who is 3rd year Electrical Engineering Student couldn't figure out how to operate a standard pair of wire strippers. (Yes the box was a disaster so I wanted to clean it up and have it wired properly.) So almost 2 hrs later he HAS to leave & still only about have done... I told him point blank that as an engineer you HAVE to make things easy to fix when it breaks kid should be ashamed for not knowing how to do simple task but then at 3rd year so should the university for having let him get that far and NOT know how to do something as simple as solder or strip a hunk of wire... :o :o >:( >:(
Mark
I work at an Ivy League institution where varying disciplines of engineering is taught. One of the first courses the students must take is basic hand tools course. Believe it or not they are taught how to use a screwdriver, open end wrenches, basic soldering skills, etc... things we were taught by our dads not a college course. A lot of the students are from families of privilege where they were not taught what these things are or what they do. However, put them in front of a computer it's a different story. Roger
The high schools in our county quit teaching a shop class a few years ago. In it you learned basic electricity like how to replace/wire a light switch or plug. Basic woodworking and welding plus a little agriculture. Much needed skills for any person to learn.
Quote from: WDH on May 24, 2015, 08:00:29 AM
Quote from: bill m on May 23, 2015, 08:46:38 AM
The heater blend door on our 2005 Jeep is broken. 1999 to 2004 there is an aftermarket fix, less then $100 for parts and about an hour of labor. Not so for the 2005. Dealer estimate is $150 for the part, $1500 for 3 days of labor. The whole dash needs to be removed.
The heater blend doors on my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee are broken. All 4 windows failed and dropped into the door because of a cheap plastic clip that broke. I have bought my last Jeep.
Dave and Danny. Dump those Grand Cherokees and find yourselves one of the old plain Cherokees. Worlds apart in reliability and ease to work on. And they've got the old Rambler straight six which is DanG'd near impossible to kill.
BIL had a 2010 Dodge Ram 3500 crew cab, full bed, 4x4 turbo diesel, rolling luxury condo on wheels. The turn signal in the drivers side mirror burned out. Dealership told him they'd have to replace the entire mirror assembly. $1,000. No way to replace just the bulb. It didn't need it to pass inspection so he said never mind.
I have no complaints about the Jeep otherwise. We've had a few of them and really like them. I think most vehicles have their highs and lows. On a different note, I discovered that there was no air filter in this vehicle. Maintained regularly by the same shop my family has been using for over 40 years.
Rear axle started leaking on my '13 Nissan Frontier with 20K and under warranty. When I broght it in for repair, the mechanic started complainging about how hard it was to replace the bearing and seals on that model. I jokingly told him, " if its that difficult to fix just put a whole new rear end in it". When I came back in a few days to pick it up, it had a new rear end under it. We were both happy.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 25, 2015, 08:09:35 PM
On a dude not I discovered that there was no she comes in this vehicle.
I was thinking the same thing, sort of, in a symbolic kinda way, kind of :D.
Is that better? I could have sworn I proof read that whole post. ??? DanG stooopid phones. ::)
No. I felt that the original version described Jeep engineering perfectly ;D.
I loved the Jeeps made in the forties. So easy to work on. The newer stuff is $400+ per repair. Just a fact of life. Just park it under the "shade tree" until the roll back comes to pick it up. :D
Bruno,
Years ago (May still do it) Japan (At least Okinawa) had a solution to encourage people to buy new cars - the property taxes went up on the old used ones every year (not down like ours typically do). Eventually it was cheaper to just buy a new car rather than keeping your old junker running.
Dave,
You should be happy these guys are just designing cars. If not they might get into politics and design our laws and tax systems.
Having worked (as a contractor) at an Automotive parts supplier for 12+ years I can vouch for the fact that very little to no consideration is placed on maintenance. They want it at the cheapest price possible. As far as assembly at the assembly plants is concerned the same applies.
I personally feel that fuel tank design employees should be obligated to pump fuel for a year before they are allowed near a computer with a design software package. The nozzle kicking off with the tank only partially filled, why that is sacriligeous.
Gerald
A subject that makes me cranky.
There really should be standards and prescribed clearances, one really should not have to remove the front axle to change the alternator or take the cab off to replace the exhaust manifold or cylinder head, remove the intake manifold to change spark plugs..............
They design them like they design everything else now cheap compacted and plastic and just throw it away and buy new when it breaks. That's why I laugh when people tell me I should buy a new truck I'll stick with my old 1999 f550 6 spd. You cant even buy a new truck with a standard transmission anymore its sickening. I'll spend 70k rebuilding mine before I buy a new one.
You can't buy a Ford or GM with a manual, but you can buy a Dodge with one. I've heard they've picked up quite a bit of market share because of it. I'm not surprised they are doing away with manual transmissions. They want the computers to control the engine and transmission for maximum economy.
Who's maximum economy? Maximum input to theirs?
A couple of years ago we needed a new headlight on our 08 Prius. I stopped at one shop, they said they had no idea how to get it done. That we HAD to go to Toyota. The next week we had Toyota do it. 3.5 hrs and $280 later we had the new light. Apparently to change the headlight, they need to remove the inner fender and a few other things before they could get to the headlight. What a marvel of engineering. I used to swap out a bulb in about 10 minutes (and the lens by the way never got cloudy) now the engineers have designed a 10 min. job to keep a mechanic busy for over 3 hrs at the consumers expense.
Quote from: SPIKER on May 23, 2015, 10:00:37 PMYep kid who is 3rd year Electrical Engineering Student couldn't figure out how to operate a standard pair of wire strippers.
I'll see your third year student and raise you a PhD. I once had to go to China to help set up a new manufacturing line for a large high-tech company. As an EE, I was the hardware guy, but another engineer, a PhD EE, came along to do data analysis.
At our hotel, Mr. PhD went to take a shower. The water control was one of those single-knob things that you pull to turn on, and twist one way or the other to get hot/cold. There were red and blue marks on the wall to indicate the direction to turn for water temp. Being a smart guy, Mr. PhD looked at the marks, figured out which direction to turn the knob, and turned on the hot water. After quite some time, no hot water came out.
So what would you have done? I know what I would have done.
Mr. PhD turned off the water and called the front desk to complain. A few minutes later a maintenance guy showed up and got plenty of hot water by (wait for it) turning the knob the other way.
Anyway, cars (and most other products nowadays) are not designed to be maintained easily--they are designed to be manufactured easily.
Tim
My father bought a shift kit for one of his IH tractors from a guy out in Iowa I think. The 06, 26, and 56 series tractors get cranky after 50 years, so this guy came up with a really nice kit to fix it. The instructions were very detailed, and the guy didn't cash your check until you were satisfied with the upgrade. My father asked if anyone had ever not been satisfied. The guy said only one. The guy called numerous times because he couldn't understand the directions, including which way to turn a right hand thread. The guy was a mechanical engineer. :D
I think many are designed to keep the common handyman from fixing things his (or her) self.
2004 2500hd change head light no time, pull up a long pen and swing out the light change. 2007, luckly on the passenger side, remove the air box and remove bulb. Drivers side is removing a lot more pieces and parts.
My neighbor works for a dealer and he gets frustrated too. As said, I believe it is decrease manufacturing cost to sell them and then the service will bring in whatever it costs but it is not easy to service.