Pickup this maple log today, is this ambrosia or spalted maple with the spots on the end? It pretty fresh cut so if I let it sit more shouldn't turn more figures in the wood? If so how long do would you let it sit? I did seal the ends when I took it off the trailer. I plan on cutting it into 2" live edge. It's 23" on small end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/maple_log_end~0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/maple_log~0.jpg)
Are you thinking Spalted Maple?
Looks like Ambrosia to me...Its not Spalted.
Ambrosia for sure. Don't let it sit. Maple develops an ugly splotchy gray stain that will ruin the appearance of the lumber. It is an enzymatic oxidation reaction that develops in the wood when the temp is up and there is high humidity.
Important to saw it as soon as possible, and with this heat, you need lots of air flow to prevent gray stain and sticker stain. I run a big barrel fan on my maple for at least the first 3 - 4 weeks. You want it nice and white to contrast the ambrosia.
I suggest that it is the Columbian Timber beetle.
That log looks like it is going to yield some pretty ambrosia maple.
OK first I corrected my spelling on "salted" thanks for that :laugh:. Probably for sure not the last time I do that. I took out some slabs in my solar kiln last week so I have room to put this in. Not a high volume fans like you are talking about but a fair amount. Do you think that a good idea?
I was reading in the past about someone letting maple lay around for pretty good time and it gets more character. What does this apply to?
Learning here, so Gene what does the CT beetle do?
It is my understanding that the Columbian Timber Beetle is a species of ambrosia beetle.
The Columbian Timber Beetle is indeed one of the ambrosia beetles.
For more info, see http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev2_043570.pdf
Note especially the picture Figure 1 D; it shows a log quite similar to the picture posted here (a bit worse).
Regarding ambrosia beetles, as a group, here is a paragraph from Clemson Univ.
Ambrosia beetles are a specialized group belonging to the family Scolytidae. They differ from the bark beetles in this family in several ways. While bark beetles burrow in the phloem layer or at the juncture of the bark and sapwood, ambrosia beetles bore through the bark and into the sapwood. The ambrosia beetles are highly specialized and feed on fungi that they cultivate on the walls of the tunnels. Both the adults and larvae feed on the fungus. In many cases, the fungi are specific to a given beetle and the spores are carried from site to site in specialized pouches (mycetangia) in the body of the female. As the female excavates a new tunnel, the spores are deposited on the walls.
Note that the maple (and others) tree reacts to this infestation by forming heartwood where there should normally be sapwood. The early heartwood is called pathological heartwood, compared to normal aging heartwood (that forms with age). This heartwood is somewhat isolated from the rest of the sapwood, and that is the way the tree tries to limit the spread of whatever infection is occurring. When a maple is tapped, in a few years the heartwood is formed around the tap and that stops flow, so new taps in a slightly different location are needed.
ok thanks Gene. Today I cut the log into 2 eight ft sections to saw Monday. Would I be better putting slabs under a high volume fan for a week before putting in solar kiln or just putting in kiln? I don't have a big fan so I would have to get one.
Hopefully, I am farming some ambrosia beetles in that planer-shaving-covered pile of pecan logs that I have. The logs laid out a couple of months this spring uncovered, so hopefully the ambrosia beetles found them. I love the result of ambrosia beetles and their black lined holes with a little fungal spalt and color in pecan. I have done it before, but completely by accident.
Xlogger, looking forward to seeing that ambrosia maple sawn. I really like that stuff.
As to the fan. @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) did some experimenting with stickering and using a fan on the stack for a couple of weeks before kiln drying. If I recall, he got excellent results with the pre-drying with the fans. Last time that I went straight to the kiln straight off the saw, I got some sticker stain, but I believe that is because I put in a bit too many BF for the capacity of my dehumidification unit. My last load of maple was pre-dried (air dried) with the big fan for about 3 - 4 weeks, and the results were very good.
Quote from: xlogger on August 08, 2015, 05:44:07 AM
OK first I corrected my spelling on "salted" thanks for that :laugh:. Probably for sure not the last time I do that. I took out some slabs in my solar kiln last week so I have room to put this in. Not a high volume fans like you are talking about but a fair amount. Do you think that a good idea?
I was reading in the past about someone letting maple lay around for pretty good time and it gets more character. What does this apply to?
Learning here, so Gene what does the CT beetle do?
Leaving the Maple sitting around for a pretty good time...This is when you will get your Spalting...and it can make reg. Sugar maple become Spalted Maple.
There are ways to speed this spalting process up...adding beer to the log for example.
Spalting is a stage the wood goes through before it is rotted and good for nothing, and then turns to compost.
2 " slabs sound good for that Maple.
I really like to use fans to pre dry red maple before it goes into the kiln. I have had quite a bit of difficulty in the past with getting sticker stain, especially in the summer, but since ambrosia maple is one of my best sellers, I have to crank it out no matter how hot and humid it is. So I will generally stack up to four packs of stickered maple in front and behind two big fans, turn them on high, and feel the air behind them as it evaporates the water.
The drying rate is highly proportional to air velocity when wood is relatively wet, less so as the wood dries out. So blasting lots of air through the stacks straight off the saw will dry out the wood extremely fast, and quickly get it beyond much of the danger of sticker stain. I like at least a week in front of the fans, but two is better. At that point, put the wood in the solar kiln but remember that generally, the solar kiln dries slow, so it is a ripe environment for white wood sticker stain.
Here a picture of me with two packs in front of a couple fans, and I would finish it up by putting two more packs on the other side, with the fans in the middle. It may seem like overkill, but it works. Of course if I did this for oak, it would destroy it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/Fans.JPG)
Fast drying gets the best color in most cases. A solar kiln can be used on freshly sawn maple, but it is best if you run the vents wide open and maximum air flow. Some kilns will keep the doors cracked open to increase the venting for the first week. Obviously, no need to run the fans when the humidity is over 90% RH.
Off to Lowes today to get a couple fans, they have a 24" that blows around 7000cfms for about $130. I have a chance of getting more of these maples later so I'll be needing them more later. Also only getting to high of 85 this week, might help a little. Now I'm only thinking about sawing one tomorrow and saving the other so maybe it will spalt more. I'll look at the slab after I saw it and decide. Also got 2 walnuts and 2 ash logs to saw maybe this week also, both are bigger than the maple. Two of the logs will have to be trimmed too big for the saw. Got a helper so I hope we can handle the weight ok.
Here's a couple other tips that will help. First, if at all possible, use an increased airflow sticker, like these H ones I made myself. They decrease the sticker contact surface on the wood, and will allow airflow under the sticker. Decreased sticker contact will decrease sticker stain, as long as there's enough sticker to support the wood in the stacks and keep from indenting the boards. Here's some home made ones I made on a table saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~51.jpg)
It's also a good idea to monitor the wood as its drying, especially in the beginning. Every day or so I like to go out and bang a few stickers sideways with a hammer and see if any stain is forming under them. If not, it only takes a few seconds, and I can sleep peaceful that night, if I start to see it, then I will hammer or knock as many stickers as possible sidewise to get the to a new spot on the wood. They only have to be moved an inch or so, just off their old spots.
I also like to space my maple boards about an inch apart when layering, I noticed that if I developed stain, it was generally in a wide board, or a tightly packed solid row of boards, where there was no way to let the moisture move through the stacks vertically. When I had gaps between the edges I had a much better result.
The good news is you will know that the fans are working because when you stand on the back side of the stacks you will feel a noticeably cool breeze coming out the downwind side, due to the evaporative effect of the fans in the wet wood. That's also a good way to know when it's OK to pull the fans, if the air coming out is just warm dry air, they are done, if the air coming out is wet and cool, keep them blowing because they are still doing their job.
When to Lowes yesterday and got 3 - 20" fans. They didn't have the 24". Cut the maples up this morning into 6-5/4 , 2-4/4 , 13-8/4 , 1-6/4 and 1- 7/4 . 23 eight foot live edge total. The fans got a good flow blowing threw the boards.
(http://yh,%20i'll %20check%20under%20stickers%20the%20best%20I%20can%20but%20I%20sure%20if%20I%20hit%20my%20stickers%20over%20they%20would%20break.%20I%20use%20cedar%20and%20they%20are%20brittle.%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttps://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/ambrosi_maple~1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/maple_stack~1.jpg)
I lost my other picture so I'll put it here.
YH, if I hit my stickers over they would probably break, I use brittle cedar stickers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/ambrosi_maple~2.jpg)
xlogger
Need some help with pics? I see several duplicates in your gallery (5 of the stack above) and thought maybe something wasn't going just the way you want it ... give a shout if needed.
If you click your user name, then you can go to your gallery.
I went to my galley and try to delete some with no luck. Computers and me should not be in the same sentence.
But I do like my slabs. One you see is the worst one.
Xlogger, WOW!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/ambrosia_maple.jpg)
Those are fantastic.
oooo ahhhhh 8)
Those are really nice, they are definitely "wow" wood.
Quote from: xlogger on August 10, 2015, 02:26:00 PM
When to Lowes yesterday and got 3 - 20" fans. They didn't have the 24". Cut the maples up this morning into 6-5/4 , 2-4/4 , 13-8/4 , 1-6/4 and 1-1 7/4 . 23 eight foot live edge total. The fans got a good flow blowing threw the boards.
A 17/4 board? Dang, that's a thick one! Watch it like a hawk, if you start seeing any surface cracking, pull it off. I bet you are feeling some cool air and the smelling maple on the back side of the stack? I did a pallet of 9/4 last year with fans and had no problem. Yours will also turn out great. But still....watch them....at least for the first couple weeks...
I've broken more than one sticker trying to look under it. ;D buts it's worth it to confirm no stain.
I notice the slab one on the left in your picture has signs of pith cracking, not much you can do about that. It'll do what it will do.
Here's a few pallets of ambrosia (red maple) we milled up this Sunday afternoon, I figured I'd post the picture so you know I practice what I preach. ;D. I've got the fans tilted so they suck air through the bottom stack and blow on the other two. These are 42" fans, set on high, and I wouldn't dry this kind of wood without them in the summer. It's all 4/4.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/image~155.jpg)
I need to proof read more before I post. It should of been 7/4. I corrected it and after I did I lost the pictures. I'll try to go back and get them back on. Like I said I'm not the one to call for a computer problem. Maybe I will just try to get them on this post. I'll also show the "little" fans I got but they put a nice flow of air threw the stack. thanks for the advice, going to cut another maple today but smaller and some red oaks all in slabs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/fans~0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/ambrosi_maple.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28470/maple_stack~0.jpg)
YH your boards look really good. I might look around for bigger fans and try to put this in my kiln if they will fit in the box area I have to put them in, They do a pretty good job, Another question. I'm trying to catch up on my slab cutting in the next couple of weeks before my helper goes back to school. Like I said earlier I have red oak, big ash, and some big walnut to cut. For sure not enough room in kiln for all. I'm thinking you all said that the ash and maple should go in first but with the lengths that will not work. After I leave the maple on fans for a couple of weeks which one would you put in first? One of walnuts is 12 ft long and really bigger than my mill will cut. I hate to trim it down will have to.
Gene, I remember what you said awhile back that after you built your first one plan for room for the second one.
As long as the maple, or any white wood is on fans and drying correctly it is safe, and there is no rush to put it in a solar kiln, which dries slow and is a hot, humid environment ripe for stain. The fans are really there for the purposes of accelerated drying, as well as keeping the temperatures of the wood cool. Both of these good conditions will help prevent sticker stain. While the wood is wet, the fans are actually drying the wood faster than the solar kiln will, and certainly keeping it cooler. This is why fan drying can't be used on some species, such as red oak, it will dry them too fast.
A solar kiln, by its nature, dries wood relataivly slowly. So it's best not to put the wood into the solar kiln until it has reached a low moisture content when the fan effect drops off, and the kiln is more advantageous.
I have had my solar kiln zebra strip white wood such as poplar, because I put it in too early and it was still wet. So I would keep the fans on the maple as long as they are having an effect. This is easily determined by a moisture meter, or even standing behind the fan stack. If the air is cool and moist, the fans are still doing their job and moisture is being evaporated.
As was suggested, if you put the wood in the solar kiln, it must have plenty of airflow.
Thanks for the advise, so I'll just leave the maple where its at and cut the ash up next week and put it in the kiln. Ash is like a white wood, do you think that would be the correct thing to do? I think Gene said it should go straight to the kiln. Also I cut some red oak slabs and put them in the kiln yesterday, I hope that was the correct thing to do? We cut some nice size walnut yesterday and another one to cut today. I plan on just for now putting under the shed for kiln drying later.
The faster we can dry maple and other white woods (more air flow and lower humidity), the whiter the color.
Quote from: xlogger on August 12, 2015, 06:48:13 AM
Also I cut some red oak slabs and put them in the kiln yesterday, I hope that was the correct thing to do? We cut some nice size walnut yesterday and another one to cut today.
Red and white oak, especially 4/4, is in the sweet spot of a standard solar kiln, it will do a great job. Walnut will also dry very well in a solar. However, thicker wood takes longer to dry and also generally will develop more defects.
YH, what do you get your moisture down to in a week with the fans on the maple? I put my moisture meter on the edge of the maple and got a little over 16% does that sound right?
Quote from: xlogger on August 18, 2015, 01:24:41 PM
YH, what do you get your moisture down to in a week with the fans on the maple? I put my moisture meter on the edge of the maple and got a little over 16% does that sound right?
It depends what moisture level you started at, but yes, fans remove moisture very quickly, which is why I like to use them. Main thing is that if the reading is even close, you're getting well out of the sticker stain danger zone. Time to look under a few stickers, see what you can see. Any zebra stripes? If not, then things are going very well. Is the surface of the wood cool and moist or is it kind of dry? Is the air coming out of the back of the stack moist and cool, or just windy? Lift up a few boards, are they still heavy or have they gotten noticeably lighter? Use the moisture meter to probe around the stack (edge readings are fine for this) to see if you have any wet spots. If so move the fans. After awhile you will be able to develop a feel from all these clues as to how things are going.
I like to keep the fans blowing on the stack as long as it is still dropping moisture. Remember the whole trick of drying white wood is to get the moisture out of it as a fast as possible while keeping the surface of the wood relatively cool. So no reason to pull the fans unless you are at a point where the kiln will dry them quicker.
Also, have an EMC table handy, it's invaluable for determining what the current air drying conditions are, and where you can expect to end up.
It will be 2 weeks Monday and I've keep the fans on all the time. They are still in the 16% range and the fan feels like just air blowing. I've checked a few stickers and they look good. So do you think I should put them in solar kiln next week or air dry some more?
If the stickers are looking good, you're not seeing stain on the boards, and dry air is coming out of the back of the stacks, then pat yourself on the back because you have passed through the the most critical stage successfully, especially considering its August. In Bahama, NC right now, it's 67°F and 80% RH with an EMC of almost 16%. Tomorrow, Sunday, at noon, the weather should be 82°, 45% RH and have approximately 8% EMC. So your wood is going to stall out somewhere between 8% and 16% if left in the open air. Since it's at 16%, and you are not feeling any appreciable moisture coming off the wood, then it's not going to go down much further without some help. So I'd put it in the kiln, but I'd run for a awhile with the vents pretty open and get lots of air exchange and airflow. Basically, you are trying to make sure you do the same thing you're doing now, outside, but in the kiln utilizing it's extra heat to drive moisture out of the wood. However, you don't want to stagnate or trap the moisture and have it turn the kiln into a sauna. So it's important to get the moist air out if the kiln.
When you get the vents adjusted right for optimum air exchange, and when you open the door in the daytime to check how things are progressing at these relatively low wood moisture levels, you should feel a nice comfortable dry heat, not a steam bath.
Also, since you've checked the stickers, you'll know if you get stain, it happened in the kiln. Since it's a solar kiln, it doesn't dry real fast, so now patience is required.
I have a closed kiln like Pineywoods built so I don't have vents. The doors are not that air tight so there is some air there. I do have a DH I can run also if you think that would help? Or I could just leave them outside under a shelter for a few weeks more. I've got some walnut and ash I could put in the kiln now. Thanks for all the help with me on this learning process. Ricky
Without vents, on the maple, I would run the kiln with the doors cracked open to get good air exchange like Yellowhammer advises for a week or so.
Outside area runs about 12% EMC or a percent higher, on the average, in most of the USA, so it is impossible, without artificial heating to get lumber much under 15% MC. You need a heated room to evaporate water under 15% MC. If the room is really tight, then the evaporated moisture will increase the humidity, so then the wood will stop drying. So, you need vents, leaks or a DH. But DH often will not run above 100 F and drying at low MCs at 100 F or cooler takes a lot of time. As DH doesn't like over 100 F (some units do like hotter), you can heat and vent during the day and then run the DH at night when the kiln is cooler.
sounds like a good plan, might leave them outside for another week with fan blowing. going out of town for a couple days and will not be able to cut DH on and off.
That is some nice looking Maple...It Is Soft Maple right?
What size DH do you have?
It's a small room DH. Only use it a couple times and it didn't pull much water out of the kiln. But the wood had been air dry for months. Yh, today is the second week of sawing and fans on all the time. If I put the maple in the kiln and do like Gene said I'm going to wait till next week. I'll be out of town for a couple days and will not be able to cut DH on and off. So I'm thinking about just leaving fans on this week also.
The walnut in the kiln now is around 12%, sure is slow. This makes me think more about building the other kiln that I was thinking about and running it off my OWB to heat it up and finish off the wood after air drying or solar kiln drying.
Leaving the soft maple on the fans won't hurt anything, that's for sure. I occasionally use a 40 pint DH in my solar kiln, depending on the wood species and the time of the year. For this maple, fast finishing is desirable, as the hot kiln will drive the moisture out of the wood. All you have to do is figure how to get the moist air out if the kiln as fast as possible. ;D.