I attended a public high school that specialized in trade craft skills (automotive, electrical, woodworking, foundry, and metalworking). There I learned many of the basic things that provide a solid foundation for any field a person should wish to persue. 45 years later I am still using these skills and now I am trying to instill some of this basic knowledge in my grandkids.
With the budget cutting our school systems continue to limit the real education needed by youngsters today. Teaching the future generations science, math, and computer operations is important however we are allowing an entire generation to lose knowledge of how to do anything but sit at a desk. Gone are art, music, and most shop classes.
TV shows show blacksmithing, construction, cooking, woodworking, and other "do it yourself" things give the impression that it's easy to work with your hands. But it takes YEARS of training and skill building to be good at these fields. When people ask me how long it takes to make a piece of pottery they fail to understand the years I have spent developing the skill to learn how to create something in an hour.
Recently I have read Mike Rowe's blog (Link here: http://mikerowe.com/2015/08/gofundrealinitiative/ ) about a high school that is trying to teach students shop but lacks the tools needed to expand the program. They turn out amazing work and only wish to educate the kids how to work with their hands yet the school system will not fund the program. One of the projects they built is a barbeque smoker that resembles a train locomotive and is incredible how beautiful it looks. When they tried to enter it in the State Fair it was rejected as the officials didn't know what to do with it and were cautious about liability or something.
So the teacher has tried another way of getting the needed tools. He is attempting to earn money by going on the website "gofundme" and asking for donations. The title is: "Small School Industrial Class Tools".
(Link here: http://www.gofundme.com/umbhes )
Given the reality of education, I would hope people respond with enthusiasm. There are people trying to teach essential skills and they could use a little help. I know I have benefited from my high school education in shop classes and would hate to see future generations lose these skills.
Around here they no longer teach American history or cursive writing much less industrial arts.
Crazy world and times.
I think I seen a ghost
Howdy,
My wife retired as a teacher 5 years ago. She taught band/instrumental music and since she was a free lance photographer she got to open up the photo classes when they built a new school - were not going to even offer classes till she saw our former pastor who was on the school board. She fought for 20+ years here in this system for every dime she got for the programs. Her graduates did well and had standing offers of music scholarships from the in-state colleges where she was best known. One of her last graduates just left Rutgers where he got his Masters and just moved to FSU to get his PhD in music.
When she taught photography she showed the kids how it could be used for fun or profit. One of the schools tops grads that year went on to a career in photojournalism. Then they took her photo class and gave it to the art teacher who did not want it or know how to use a camera. She had to teach the art teacher every week enough to stay ahead of the class and answer questions the kids would bring her.
Instead the money would go to support the football team who considered a 4:6 season a major accomplishment or the girls basketball team. None of these graduates were good enough to get scholarships for continuing ed. These are good programs but not at the expense of others.
The local bank put money up front to fund a project where the shop built a house from top to bottom. They'd auction and move the house which was built on rails to be relocated and with the profit they'd build another. The shop teacher retired so they hired a political appointee with no teaching certificate so the kids could not use the tools, guy failed to get his certificate so quit and now another no-nothing babysitting that class.
Its frustrating and getting worse. Wife said last few years her big problem with 9th graders coming up from middle schools were not taught to think - just memorize enough to pass the tests.
I love to visit the craft shows where the old timers weave baskets or make furniture or such. As they die out those skills are gone. I worked many, many years and vacationed overseas in remote areas and loved watching the people build homes from local materials, tan hides like had done for centuries, make mud bricks like Biblical times, hunt, fish, farm and make baskets and such. Those people had great skills. My home is decorated with stuff they built and used daily. The sad part is they placed no value on their labor so a woven hunting net or crossbow made by the pygmies in central Africa or rawhide rope made Mongolian nomads cost nearly nothing.
I dread the thought of the loss of those skills.
I think that internet sites and youtube are improving the situation. there are many collaborative efforts that happen today online.
I definitely agree. I am an engineer in a high tech field and we struggle to get craftsman of sufficient skill for welding, pipefitting, etc. We host lots of school and teacher groups and I always try to emphasize the need for trades is live and well, and that you can make a good living doing it.
I also travel to Denmark a lot with work and it is interesting visiting places like that where skilled trades are on par with college education in people's mind and funding. We could learn a lot there. At least in our county we are seeing a resurgence in trade school's associated with the public school system. It seems they have figured out if you force a child to do what they don't want to do they get done with college with a D average they are unemployable.
On a side note have you ever read the article "shopclass is soulcraft?" Interesting read.
There is plenty of information/ways to learn out there, ....If you want to learn.
It's not part of a complete education anymore. It's all elective, and at additional cost or on your own time. If you want your kids to learn these life skills, you have to teach them yourself of find a program to place them in. Or the kid needs to want to learn on their own and take initiative to do so, and how often does that happen.
Howdy and I, both from Oregon have similiar views. They say our system is poorly funded, so they have to cut,cut,cut expenses. There go the vocational programs. There used to be 3 or 4 forestry classes in the high schools where I live, none anymore. 1 as an after school program still exists, barely. Not sure if my high school still has a woodshop class, probably not. The local community college dropped it's forestry program years ago. So what is being taught? Balancing a checkbook rather than the skills to earn the money to put in the checkbook. Lots of burger flipping skills and such IMO. When I washed dishes in a restaurant as a kid it was a beginning job, not a career. And to echo others, quite frankly, the majority of kids do not want hard work as part of their resume. I could go on and on, but then we all could about this subject. >:(
Quote from: Raider Bill on August 28, 2015, 08:08:59 AMI think I seen a ghost
I saw Casper but I ain't skeered because I saw Poston and survived. ;D
Quote from: Dan_Shade on August 28, 2015, 09:12:43 AM
I think that internet sites and youtube are improving the situation. there are many collaborative efforts that happen today online.
Unfortunately, they are also spreading junk information at an alarming rate.
I agree that there is bad info out there, but there is a lot of great info out there too.
For example, I know everything I know about sawing from this place.
My woodworking has improved from watching videos (however, I've purchased the ones with the best info on them).
I do agree, I don't think that one could become an electrician or a plumber by watching Youtube.
There has been a full on assault of hands on trades for at least 20 years. I was the only "good" student in my shop classes in highschool in the late 80's and early 90's.
As you probably know, I'm a public high school woodshop teacher. A few things led to the reduction of shop courses over the past 30 years. From the belief that computers were going to be the next big thing and this country was going to outsource its manufacturing to folks voting down school budgets and Washington's belief in testing the living soul out of education, it hasn't been pretty.
The good news is that folks have realized you can't pound a nail over the Internet and we are kinda screwed as a country if we forget how to make stuff and new research has shown adolescent minds develop more completely with hands on activities( no crap) A person will become a better businessman, dr or lawyer taking shop courses and kids don't just take shop classes if they want to get in the trades these days. This is good as some of my former students have gone on to big degrees at Ivy League schools but they frequently come back and reminisce about their shop days and sometimes make significant donations. The shop is now a melting pot if you will, because the blue collar kids are right in there too working side by side and I'm not sure that happens in a lot of other tracked classes. At least a third of the students these days are girls also from all walks of life.
Shop programs are not out of the woods yet, but I believe the tide has started to turn.
I've enjoyed reading this thread. My degree is a BA in Industrial Arts...basically how to teach shop class. Once I graduated however, I began working on my own designing homes, and have done it ever since. I majored in drafting and woodworking, and it served me for a lifetime. I've designed and built many homes for myself and others through the years, as well as a number of furniture items from walnut, cedar, cypress and pine. If I had a need, I would research a little through my collection of furniture books, and build it. As most of you guys know, I play music too. I love making things and creating music!
I guess I'm posting to say that shop class benefited me for a lifetime...I've used everything I learned at CSULB! Later, in my forties, I went back to college at Louisiana Tech in architecture. I almost graduated with another degree, but fell a few hours short. It benefited me greatly though in my home designing. But my days in Industrial arts made my life of building a good one. I hope that school districts will soon come around to the benefits of shop class!
I live in a small rural town in southwest missouri, just around the corner from our public school, there are somewhere around 225 students total from kindergarten thru 12th grade. Last year the school district bought a woodmizer band mill and had it setup behind the vo-ag shop building. I don't know much about sawmills, but i know several students, high school boys and girls have taken a real interest in it. I think it is great to teach them to work with their hands and figure out what to saw out of a log. I wish we had one when i went to school there 30 year ago.
I'm about to leave MA, tomorrow, to travel to Kansas to teach the age old craft of timber framing to a bunch of college students at Kansas University (KU).
There is still a desire in some circles to learn the "old ways" of doing things.
I was lucky to be taught by a bunch of men that learned the old ways from old timers before they passed on.
I am continuing to pass it on to the next generations.
Jim Rogers
The focus of education has changed to college prep. Not everyone wants, needs, should go on to college from high school. Society needs tradesman and the trades pay very well. Better than a bachelors degree in many instances.
A fair number of the trades still offer apprentice programs.
Low pay while learning, but you come out with a marketable skill and NO DEBT
shinnlinger, Thanks for blowing the dust off and waking up some of my brain cells. Remember an article years ago about parents who took their children off sailing around the world. The author debunked the myth that these were "horrible and bad parents".
His case studies of the children showed they were better educated, more well adjusted and mature than their peers 'back home'.
If they went on to higher education,they excelled and were in the top of their class,and usually went on to post grad degrees.
A lot started small business's that were very successful. And the ones who went to work for large corporations climbed the ladder of promotions to high levels at a fast rate. The authors conclusion for the children's success latter in life was their " hands on and living it" learning experience.
James A Michener's small book "The Quality of Life" has a chapter about young people who take an unconventional path,and if it includes "hands on,living it" they go on to very successful lives.And usually surpass their peers that took conventional paths.
Howdy, Thank you for the OP. Really enjoy having a 'conversation' with you thru your writing.
Quote from: Corley5 on August 29, 2015, 08:33:44 AM
The focus of education has changed to college prep. Not everyone wants, needs, should go on to college from high school. Society needs tradesman and the trades pay very well. Better than a bachelors degree in many instances.
My Granddaddy used to ask me when I got to college age, "If everybody gets a college education, who in the world will do the work?" He could see back in the sixties that America was loosing skillful trade people.
When I was in middle school in the early '70s, industrial arts was NOT and option. Everyone had to take home economics, wood shop and "industrial arts". A lot of kids hated one portion or another. My mother taught all of us to cook and she sewed a lot - something I found interesting. So in 7-8th grades, the sewing and cooking was fun. "Today", I used my sewing skills to redo my pop up tent camper - albeit more fun with a big industrial sewing machine 8)
In wood shop and the industrial arts classes, we were totally hands on with some great teachers. Those classes were doing stuff like silk screening and litho blocks as well as using wood scraps to make "art" sculptures. My dad was as hands-on guy from West Virgina and taught us how to make killer rubber band guns that used loops cut from car inner tubes and how to fix your bike. Growing up, we had all-out battles with our guns and it wasn't over until someone got hurt.
In high school, we had drafting class (no computers), metal shop, wood shop, auto shop, ceramics and art classes. I would spend all my "study hall" time I could down there. It was great to be down there!
My son will be starting middle school next year and it will be interesting to see if the wood shop, ceramics and home ec. classes are still in use that my daughter attended 12 years ago. This school did offer a taxidermy class linked up with a wildlife curriculum - I'd like to see if that is still a go as well. High school here has a wood shop class but is reserved for those wanting to go into construction - which seems kind of sad that it is limited.
On the plus side, visiting the State Fair, there are industrial arts projects on display. Some pretty amazing stuff coming out of some of the schools.
Hi Folks ,
In 1979 my great uncle who owned a building and hardware supply started a building trades program for our high school .He gave land to build on for 4 years , tools , and all material to build a new house every year .The houses sold every year with a waiting list of people wanting them .After 4 years the program stood on its own , no cost to the school but a teacher to over see it .
I went though the program in 1983 and 1984 and was Foreman both years .The teacher and i became life long friends and still talk often .I have worked for myself as a carpenter sense . I know of my class mates that are tradesman because of this program .
After 15 years of the program the school administration milked all the money out of the program and closed it down , it was better to spend money on the kids that went to college .
When in school most teachers hated us building trades kids , they would single us out and tell us we would be nothing . Funny thing some who did that would call me up to work on their houses and act like my buddie because they wanted a deal >:( >:(
i had good grades and could have went to college but had a calling to work with my hands . I would not change taking wood shop or building trades it has served me well in life .
My great uncle would be very sad that they cared more about making them selfs look good by meeting college guotas for the school board .
Sorry for the rant it just makes me >:( >:( >:(
Jim/Bruno
Our local community college has now taken on the task of teaching skills. They have courses in automotive repair, carpentry, HVAC, electric technology, welding, home building and remodeling, CDL training, CNC machining, equipment repair, as well as a host of other technical degrees. Many offer diplomas or certificates. There are also several tech schools at the county level. Seems that these programs can give the needed training to develop the skills. Things are a lot more technical than they were decades ago. Cost is $200-250 per credit.
The ability to get a much better education in these areas are out there. It depends on how they will to pursue them is instilled in the young people. There's no need to be burger flippers. It may be more in line with high schools to show students what other professions are out there. It probably would be good to get local companies involved in recruiting out of high school instead of the classified ads.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any budgets being cut in government sponsored schools. In fact, the budgets have done nothing but multiply to critical levels per student. My small town/city couldn't get a tax increase for schooling, so it went around the backdoor and raised everyone's home values, thus increasing millage(read that as taxes). So now I live in a $68,000 house valued at $115,000(that I could never sell for that much) in order for some communist to teach child that they get a trophy for showing up and their feelings matter.
Yes, children need to learn fundamentals in government sponsored schools. But to teach them, we'd have to eliminate the 'crop of teachers' we have now! And install those that grade on real levels of knowledge based on performance.
Liberal classes need to be eliminated also. Basics is what made America powerful 50 years ago....no basics in school equals what we are now.....
Scott in Cabot
Our school taxes are high , but our school does a good job informing the taxpayers of needs and exactly what the money will be spent on when they propose a rate hike. I don't like paying more and more but i've never voted no on our school tax proposals because i believe the school does a good job overall, and i try to support the kids and the school. I know several teachers well, we have some that are topnotch, good teachers as well as good morals.
Our local community college has a program for the hands-on stuff. My son came back from Iraq the third time with PTSD after an IED and other things. A failed marraige too...so off to college via military priviledges he earned. It is the AM GI Bill.
Son finished 1st in state in carpentry both years. he went to national competition in Kansas CIty and met Mike ROWE. After completing carpentry he has gone on to HVAC school.
I am all about community schools and hands on teaching and learning. After all, I am a blacksmith too, after being a logger.
David G
carry on
I had the pleasure of working with a couple teenagers last year on a milling job. At least one if not both of them were home schooled. The older one, 16, was the son of a farmer, the younger, 14, came from a family of electrical contractors.
Both of them could read fractions on a tape measure, ask intelligent questions about the mill, warm me before I sawed the log clamp ::) and work consistently without staring at their "smart" phones. We were able to have intelligent conversation when we stopped for lunch, and they out worked virtually all of the adult men that I've had work with me on milling jobs. They didn't break their backs, they worked steady and smart.
I can assure you that they did not develop these skills-aptitudes in a public school.
I know from my wife who has taught for 25 years, early elementary, and from my experiences in life, the will to learn and ability to teach those that want to learn are key. I believe it really starts at home, and grows from experiences from outside sources with the base and resources to expand. Trades are essential in our day and time as they have been from the beginning of time. The emphasis just needs to be made more on the benefits, As well as finding the aptitude of each student for the given field. Funding has and will always be an issue within the school districts in many locals in smaller areas, as will finding the right mentors(teachers) in the given fields. The fact is that yes we are as a country losing skills, but all is not lost, there are lots of nocks and crannies where some great talent still thrive.
Quote from: Corley5 on August 29, 2015, 08:33:44 AM
The focus of education has changed to college prep. Not everyone wants, needs, should go on to college from high school. Society needs tradesman and the trades pay very well. Better than a bachelors degree in many instances.
They don't pay as good as they used to. I have been building pretty much my whole life, and I have not been able to raise my rates to keep pace with inflation. I have raised my site rate $2 since 1992, but the cost of everything I have to by has gone up a lot more, and government mandated costs have made it impossible to make money on employees on a small scale. Under the radar scabs are cutting my throat more and more, to the point where I wonder why I play by the rules.
If I had a son, and I don't, three daughters, I would try to get him into something else. I would want him to know what I know, but to make a living at something else. Our area has never really recovered, and Bay Harbor brought in so many contractors that stayed even after Bay Harbor slowed down. People are getting ten bids on houses, and if you do the quality of work I am known for you are never going to be low bidder. I am surviving on old customers that know quality, something that younger buyers do not seem to know or care about. That and the younger set do not seem to want us old guys.
I'm still working every day, by myself these days, but the money just does not go as far as it used to.
I agree however that a firm understanding of how things are done is important no matter what you do for a living. I made my daughters take an automotive course so they would not be so easily taken for example, something they thank me for occasionally when they run into a shyster mechanic. Shop classes help anyone take care of their home, a good thing.
I don't have the answers, just a lot of questions. I wonder where we are going some times.
Larry
someone mentioned that schools are no longer teaching cursive writing. i had heard about that. also that they are quitting teaching history. i feel both of those ideas ridiculous. they think that we will always be able to depend on our computers and electronic gadgets. what will they do if their computer and smart phone quits? also if i can believe what the net is saying about how common core is teaching math it is unbelievable how complicated it is to add and subtract with a pencil and paper.
What we need is a few more MBA types that have never been in the system before running our education system along with a bunch more education budget cuts. Remember, the rich already have theirs. Let the rest of us pay through the nose for what they got for free.
Here we speak of shop classes not being funded while many of the schools have to have their teachers pay for things like copy paper (so the teachers can copy book because the school can't afford class books) and there are no computers for the students.
Back when we all went to the same schools (well except for those with dark skin) we all benefited by the total. We all had basically everything we needed, including shop classes. Now days, we have some school with virtually everything modern technology has to offer and many schools have absolutely nothing because they in poor areas.
Now we have almost 100% millionaires in higher elected offices taking care of their friends and work mates instead of taking care of all of us the same. They have no problem passing bills that give millions to contractors and administration but little to classes or teachers.
The biggest downturn for most of us has been since the 80's when privatizing just about everything became the goal.
I still have my original hospital bill from my birth with a couple days stay. $101.24. Just got the bills from my wife's 10 minute carpel tunnel surgery. Tipping in at about $3000. She was in the facility for less than 2 hours. When I was born, it was in a government owned hospital. My wife's present work was in the all to well known private medical facility.
Bottom line, we need many more tax breaks for the richest individuals and corporations in our country so they can enjoy the profits they make overseas that they don't have to pay U.S. Taxes on.
I got a great education in public schools growing up. Now I can't find many benefits we enjoyed growing up in the present education system. I grew up with a growing middle class, now, there is no middle class. However now we do have mandatory testing.
Sorry for the rant. I have a daughter in a University. I got out of college with a doctorate degree and had $600 in student loans. My daughter is likely to end up with student debt that overshadows my entire college costs. That does not include what we are paying.
My personal opinion is: Fire the entire education administration above campus level, divide the entire education budget equally between all schools and give it directly to the individual campuses. We could cut that budget in half and still have everything we needed in the schools to give a quality and meaningful education to all.
If it wasn't for shop class I would have dropped out. I learned a lot!
Apprentices are only lowly paid when you compare them to a full tradesman. 50 percent to start and then a 10 percent increase at certain plateaus. Compared to paying for your education they get a great wage.
I follow a blog by neighbor, woodworker, shop teacher, and nationally known box maker Doug Stowe. If your interested in the state of our educational system it is an excellent read. He normally posts something new everyday.
Wisdom Of The Hands (http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2015-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&updated-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=14)
The title says it all.
Larry, thank you for the information about Doug Stowe. I have added his site to my list of good reads. Seeing his skill at box making is added bonus.
Howdy