Ok folks, now be nice to me on this one, I am just looking for some clarification.
I am by no means what most would consider a "seasoned" sawyer. But I have cut down a lot of trees and seen a lot cut down. And since I can first remember I have heard the dangers of the tree "kicking back" or "kicking out", ect. However, I have never once seen it happen. I have been told how it happens, why it happens, how to be safe about it, ect, ect... I have also gotten a lot of conflicting theories....
What is some input you folks could offer me.
Read the "Scary Tree" post on this forum ... ;D
Hi Abeyanko
I'm not an expert either, but I think what you are talking about is the butt log bouncing back past the postion of the stump. More common in heavily branched 'springy' trees or on rough terrain. The tree hits the ground and the branches act like springs and push the tree back toward the stump. Not a good thing if you are standing there :o. Thats why it's recomended you walk clear of the stump at a 45 deg angle as soon as the tree starts to fall. Hopefully the butt just hits the ground in front of the stump, but it could roll to the side or bounce back toward the stump.. or even both. Being safe means planning for things that MIGHT happen :P
This log has kicked back a couple of feet over the stump, and could also have rolled off if I had been unlucky. Dont worry I expected this to happen as it was falling uphill. I was 10ft away behind the next tree when it hit the ground ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/ianab_port_orford_felling.jpg)
Ian
A log will slide back over the stump if you make your back-cut even or below the apex of the notch. If you will cut to the hinge above the apex of the notch, that little bit of a lip will often times catch the tree and keep it going forward.
If you cut through your hinge the tree can do all kinds of strange things. You lose all control.
If the notch is too narrow it will close before the tree breaks the hinge. that stops the log from falling but the top is still trying to go to the ground. That's what causes a Barber Chair. The top exerts too much pressure on the log and it splits right up the middle.
A friend of mine got his head caught in the split of Barber Chair once. DanG near Killed him. He, nor anyone there is quite sure how it happened. The tree split and he reached in with the bar to cut some of the hinge and the tree began falling. The split closed and his head was in there. The tree started falling but didn't fall all the way down. It knocked him silly, almost tore his ears off and skinned him up pretty good. His brother began relieving some of the stress by cutting the split part above his head. They were lucky that he was able to relieve enough pressure for them to get his head out of the crack. By all rights he shouldn't be here today, and he knows it.
In winter, if you don't back-cut a hardwood fast, (and have the heart bored out in good order!) it can split like Tom said. And, it can send the "outer/uppper" portion flying out and up into the air...taking you with it if you are not careful! Ash is a great one for this. It could easily kill you if it hit you right.
re:kicking back
I have seen trees bounce pretty good with the butt going up into the air, especially ones that are all branches, once they hit the ground. So I could see one bouncing back towards the stump and over it, especially on a low stump. I have had them jam back into the stump pretty good too. Once I cut a water oak that bounced and then the trunk (36 dbh) split in 1/2 so it was over 7 feet high on the ground.
I had one of my fallers injured quite bad from a "kickback" while we were working some mountain sides in West Virginia years back. A yellow poplar caught him breaking ribs, puncturing a lung, etc.
He had to be carried out to an ambulance and spent a couple weeks in the hospital. It was some time before he was able to get back to work. Awareness is always needed for possible "kickback".
In my younger day,before getting smart :-[, I watched a 14" white birch fall into a forked oak. I was standing next to the stump. Before I realized what was happening it jamed my foot into the stump :o. Broke every bone from the toes to ankle, one was broke in 5 places :'(. I now bore cut almost all of the trees, so I can WALK away from it before it falls. I back cut only when I know I can cut to the hinge quick, and still move away before it falls.You never know what a tree will do as it hits the ground. Especialy brushy ones.
appriciate all the input
I understand it a bit better now.
Thanks....
Not a pro, but I have been dropping trees for half my life. Best lesson learned, is never take any tree for granted, even one that's dead straight and in the middle of a field. I have gotten to the point where, nine out of ten trees fall within a few feet of their intended resting spot, but it's always the tenth tree that hangs, barberchairs or gets rolled or blown out of target.
Worst experience I have had so far was a big forked ash tree, fork was right about eye level and the only way to drop it was to put each fork down opposite each other. Well, I managed to notch and backcut one side, and it started to drop, and then I realized that the tree was being held up by a giant wild grapevine. It was then that the wind came up and leaned that critter right back onto the other fork. Only thing that saved a really big mess was that I managed to cut a nice even hinge. We wound up cabling the two halves of the tree together and I dropped both halves the other way after cutting the grapevine out. That vine wound up tearing off half a dozen widowmakers on the way down.
On the other hand, yesterday I was cutting some more trees around my house site and I got full of myself, and drove a stake in the ground about thirty feet away from a 14" dbh ash I wanted to cut. Told my dad I was gonna drive that stake in using the tree trunk, and he started laughing. Well, I was proud of myself 'cause I put that tree right on top of the stake. ;D
Lucky I guess. One of these days I'm gonna forget to move my truck and wind up with branches in the cab.
"Lucky I guess. One of these days I'm gonna forget to move my truck and wind up with branches in the cab."
I done that one time, too! :-[
Me too DanG. But i only put it across the bed of the truck . It was one of those DanG grape vines that caused it to roll out about 120 degrees to the left . My dad was probably 500 yards away and he came fast to see what the ruckus was about . A new used bed and all was fine . The plus I quess was I didn't have far to carry the firewood that day . ::)
Well at least you had a grapevine to blame it on. Mine was just too easy. Pine tree was limb-heavy in just the right direction, with at least 150 degrees margin of error. Problem was, it was so easy, it didn't appear to require any thinkin', so I didn't do any. I put the DanG thing right where I intended, but didn't figger on those big ol' stout limbs. Didn't figger how long they were, either. They didn't look all that big when they were 75' up in the air. Anyway, the limbs hit the ground just as the tree released from the stump, and took a big rolling bounce to the right. One limb crunched the truck door, costing me a severe tongue-lashing from my better half, whose truck it was. :-/
I did learn something that day . I don't park any of my equipment anywhere near the felling area . I have learned alot since that happened 17 yrs. ago . Alot of it has come from the words of wisdom on here . I have just started using wedges in the last year . I have been Practicing on small cull trees . I have cut some leaners with out barberchairing them also lately using the plunge cut method then cutting the holding strap .
Hillbilly
Same here. That plunge cut is a neat trick. I've been using it on some of these uprooted hurricane trees, too. Many of them are "bridged" from the rootball to the branches, making them hard to buck without pinching your saw. The plunge cut sure makes it a lot easier. :)
I was felling a 18" dbh SYP several years back and realized my tractor was too close, so I moved it out further and away from where I expected it to fall. Yep' you guessed it, it fell right across the engine of the tractor, just lucky it was the top small branches and only did some sheetmetal damage.
Park them vehicles away from the work site. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/lewzxs.jpg)
& spectaters ::)
thats some impressive carnage!!!!!!!!!!! 8)
too bad theres not a video of that occorance:)
If you run into a double bole at eye height, try this. I determine the two directions of fall, and notch accordingly. I then bore cut from back of one hinge to the other. I then cut straight down from the crotch, watch carefully as the trees start to split, move out of the area at 90*.
Ed;
That sounds a little risky to me.
I would prefer to fall one at a time providing the branches weren't intertwined or fall both in the same direction at the same time.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/double.JPG)
I used to have one ofthem step side chevys when I was in school. Darn thing never would qite haul a big enough load of wood.
About a year or so back a logger of probably 30 years or better was seriously injured while he was cutting a rather large WO, there was a grape vine that ran around the opposite side of the tree from him and then under the leaves on the ground to another tree behind him, when he fell the tree the grape vine caught him across the back and threw him under the tree as it was falling ,still alive but he sure can't do much.
Yea, vines are pretty dangerous and I could see that happening.
They are like 1/4 steel cable in strength. What I hate is cutting through them and the kickback. A vine covered tree can dull a saw just in one felling.
I have had trees so rotted the only thing holding the tree up was the vines around the trunk and in the branches.
Two weeks ago a friend of mine had just that type of tree, it was a white pine with two stems leaning in opposite directions. The tree was about 120 feet tall and dead. One stem was 36 inches diameter and the other was 30 inches across.
The smaller stem went first. First the notch cut, second a vertical cut from the marriage point of the two stems down to the horizontal point of the back cut. The back cut was a plunge cut started at the hindge and worked back on each side. The last of the back cut was made from the escape route side of the tree and the stem went over.
The second and larger stem was cut in the same manner except that the back cut was made from the hindge point to just a couple of inches of the backside of the tree. The back cut was finished from the outside.
I most always use a plunge cut to counter any chance of a barber chair. I had a barber chair happen once before I knew about plunge cutting and boy that was scarry, only by the grace of God did I escape being hit in the head.
Randy
That is interesting!
I had wondered about that kind of tree. Someone wanted to know if I wanted to cut an unusual pine tree. It looks like a big Y.
The first thirty feet is straight trunk and then it splits into a Y with two huge trunks. I have never seen this on a pine tree. I declined, I know my limits. All I could see is the tree splitting before hitting the ground and hitting a house or something.
What is it called when a pine tree does this?
A double .