I have been approached by a local landowner to do some skidding. It is a job which will have to be charged by the hour because the bf/cordage just isn't there to consider a volume deal. I'm running an old 440A line machine with a 239 engine (about 75 hp). He wants an hourly rate for me and my machine. I pay my own fuel, he will pay the floating.
With our loon (dollar) gone for a dive again, I'm at a bit of a loss what to charge. Has anybody on this forum recently done contract work with a small skidder at an hourly rate? What did you charge per hour? Replies from eastern Canada would be particularly appreciated, but if fellows from the north-eastern states can give me their hourly rates, I'll just do a U$/CDN conversion.
What's the going rate say of a small Dozer if the land owner was 2 hire one around that area? Figure a older Dozer I guess. But sometimes the landowners figure a logger likes 2 run Eq just cause he likes doing it. But it's good 2 make a few bucks out of the deal also.
About a year ago, I contacted a local logger to do some skidding for me. He came out, looked it over and came to the conclusion that he would need $500 a day and the trucking to get his skidder there would be $250 to get it on site, and another $250 to return it. Said it would be a day and half job.
I decided I could log it with my 32 hp Deere for considerable less, but would take more time.
That doesn't seem like that was way over priced. I'm from NW Wis & lowboys charge $125 a hour & some have a 2 hour minimum. Also 500 a day can veri a lot. If the logger put in 10 hours a day(pretty much 3/4 of a day then)$50 per hour not 2 far out of line. But I think what would've been better was a lump sum price 4 the logger 2 do the job that u's both agreed on. Then if the logger's a slacker or if he has break downs ur not over paying. Plus a agreement on how long it'll take.
I charge 1200 a day for me and skidder and I pay for move and fuel, brake downs if I only work 1/2 a day they only pay for that time I don't care how big or small of a skidder you got its all in the operator do you have to cut the trees too just my 4 cents
I was wondering that also if it involved fell the trees also? I've had some land owners wanting some trees cut near the house or other high risk ones. If there over 16 inch & can't get with my 311 they out of luck. I say I a Logger not Tree Service. There's a reason Tree Service guys get paid pretty good. Around here I've heard a big tree cost 1k 2 get down. But they have a lot Eq & workers also so that's what it's worth.
Quote from: logger RK on January 11, 2016, 10:37:00 AM
I was wondering that also if it involved fell the trees also...
Nope. Straight skidding. So what I'm looking for is a flat hourly rate for me and my machine - no different than if you were getting a fellow with a back-hoe or a dozer.
i'd say check on rates for a backhoe and operator. i don't think i could turn a wheel on my gear for less then $70 per hour. and at that, i wouldn't really be making much. i charge that for repair work with my portable welder/tool truck. Thats in rural NS, and i'm a machinist/welder.
how much fuel will your machine burn in a day of straight skidding?
I charge $75 per machine hour (hobbs meter) plus floating. I have Detroit powered TJ 230.
Is the wood already felled or is it going to be skidded as cutting progresses?
Al
75 an hr cash is about as cheap as its going to be. How many days and how much travel for you is involved ? They are dropping and topping everything ? Are they skilled cutters, or are you going to be pulling down hangers and fighting for every stick of wood ? Decent ground ?
theonlybull-barge monkey when you say 70-75 an hour how do you figure that ??? (not trying to be a wise guy) just my time should be worth 25 and the machine should be worth 125 most other operators get 25+an hour that's how I figure it guys with dump trucks around here are getting 100-125 an hour a few of the log truck owners are getting 150 an hour and cant keep up with all the work they say there running 2 machines at the same time and they them self need to be paid a rate to witch I under stand also there are guys around here with little jd 35 track hoes getting 100 an hour and there real busy
Cable skidders with less than 100hp are rated at between $50 and $55/hr by most mills here in Nova Scotia. Take into account that you aren't working for a big mill and i would say something in the $70/hr range plus the floating bill should be fair.
I WOULD AGREE $50-100 per hour. Here is the problem figure the move cost, than assume you will have some days you will only get a few hours in due to rain, brake down, logs not ready etc.
Quote from: Jamie_C on January 11, 2016, 05:21:29 PM
Cable skidders with less than 100hp are rated at between $50 and $55/hr by most mills here in Nova Scotia.
again not trying to be a wise guy but how do you guys pay bills at 55 an hour that's 440 a day 2200 a week if your paying fuel, repairs ,insurance maybe truck or skidder payment house or rent payment food clothing saws and parts oil and if you have to pay a helper maybe im missing something maybe im doing something wrong please help me out
A buck per minute when I and my equipment is moving. I do not charge for downtime and I float my stuff with my tractor on the road.
Each situation is different.
My equipment is paid for and I do not have to make a living with it. When I brake something well then I didn't make anything, when everything goes well I made a little. Oh yeah, and I don't pay myself $ 25. I just don't think I am worth that much. ;D
A guy was building a pond and had a dozer there, He was taking too much time getting the uprooted trees up to a pile so the land owner ask me what I would charge to grab them after he shoved them out and skid them up out of the way. I ask what the dozer was getting and he said 65.00 an hour, I said well that's my rate too. He offered 20.00 an hour and I said no thanks. Next day he told me he would do the 65.00. After all that's what he was getting to push them up out of the way I figured it was right.
But that was 20 years ago too, so Id say 75-100 now days
Quote from: coxy on January 11, 2016, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: Jamie_C on January 11, 2016, 05:21:29 PM
Cable skidders with less than 100hp are rated at between $50 and $55/hr by most mills here in Nova Scotia.
again not trying to be a wise guy but how do you guys pay bills at 55 an hour that's 440 a day 2200 a week if your paying fuel, repairs ,insurance maybe truck or skidder payment house or rent payment food clothing saws and parts oil and if you have to pay a helper maybe im missing something maybe im doing something wrong please help me out
The mills don't care if you have a truck payment or housing payments, they know what the machines cost to buy and finance, what they cost to operate, what the operator costs, they crunch the numbers and tell you what the machine is rated at per hour and there you are.
Welcome to industrial forestry, margins are tight and you have to be business smart in order to survive and not just be a hard worker. People up here can only dream about getting the rates per hour you guys seem to be able to get. I could spend $800,000 on a top of the line harvester and it still wouldn't be rated as high per hour as what you guys want to charge for a cabke skidder.
well i am in the same neck of the woods as you jamie and i get where you are coming at with the mill rates but i can assure you i dont work for those rates .The mill also pays for some things i pay for myself floating and running lines and also there is the guarantee of steady work .But they dont leave you much to live on .I dont believe i could survive on their rates again.
I charge 50$/h for me and my 540A. she burns just 5lt of diesel per hour. I am happy to pay myself 10$ hour. :D But of course rates down here can not be compared
A newer skidder can surely charge more for being stronger
I get 100-120$ an hour for me and my 30ton volvo excavator and i am earning big bucks there. 1000-1200$ a day, 6000$ a week, half of that is profit.
of course, thats when there is payed work around! :D :D
you are 100% right they don't care they are the same here that's why I don't work for a mill been down that road before im just trying to figure it out if you have a machine that's burns 100gal of fuel a day at 2.50 a gal there is half your wages a day not counting other daily working expenses it don't leave much if any to put away I don't want to work till im 70 I want to have a little fun before I kick the bucket my hole point is im in biz to make money if i cant why bother
witch machine burns 100gal of fuel a day??
My excavator burns 40 gal a day and the 540skidder burns 12gal a day. a 440 will burn probably 8gal a day
Just me but at $75 an hour I know I would not jump at that , stuff cost way to much to fix now so you need to make some money , I just put over $5,000 in parts in my skidder and 3 years ago that would of been about half that cost , I'm not trying to get rich but would like to be able to buy food other than KD, bread and water
i run a 662 clark and would not work it for less than $75/hr i would expect to get closer to $100/hr
Quote from: teakwood on January 11, 2016, 08:48:07 PM
witch machine burns 100gal of fuel a day??
My excavator burns 40 gal a day and the 540skidder burns 12gal a day. a 440 will burn probably 8gal a day
ill stick my foot in my mouth now my 518 cat will burn 50gal a day no trouble with out running it hard if I heard the lady right from tiger cat at the logger fest this year she said the one tiger cat would eat 100+ a day depending what you where doing i know there is bigger ones out there than that not only skidders but im shur some harvesters, forwards and so on will a 440may not even burn 8gal when I get to be 60 ill have one to do one load a week if I feel like working but for now ill stick with my fuel guzzler its so much faster and smother and don't have to build road to every thing like you would with a 440 its not vary flat where I work but there is nice timber and I buy it cheap cheap
The last time I ran my old 440b by the hour I charged $80 and hour. But that was for a pretty good friend. When I figure the 440b on a job that I've got to bid, I figure it at $125 an hour.
I must be doing something wrong. I see people saying that they can run a 440 all day on 5 to 8 gallons of diesel. I just can't get that kind of efficiency if I'm working it. Skidding all day I'll use 15 to 17 gallons depending on the terrain, and size of wood.
To those who say that they aren't trying to get rich...I'll just say, we have different goals in life.
To those who say that they aren't worth $25 an hour as a machine owner/operator...Well, you don't think much of yourself evidently.
I try to figure my time at least at $40 an hour, and by the time I find the job, figure the job, deal with the land owner, do the job, do the maintenance and paper work. I'm really only making about $12 or $15 an hour for my time. That's poverty level. I can make that just about anywhere and not have the headaches of owning equipment. :o
My thinking exactly. If I am helping a friend, I may do it for free, or at cost. If I use a piece of equipment I figure to make money, and not just for the day, for the life of the equipment.
The way I look at it is....if small skidders aren't worth much an hour then everyone should own one and do all the maintenance on them and buy the fuel, transport them and so on. Tried to rent a small dozer once...D3 Cat was what they had. Daily rate, plus transport, plus proof of million dollar liability ins., plus pay for any broken parts on machine. It got expensive real quick. I am not sure I would even do it. After you get there it may turn into a nightmare real quick.
Thanks for all the input and suggestions, lads. I'm going to tell him $85 CDN. He may choke on that, but that's okay. I've got other things to do with my machine anyways.
Better to be high bid and lose job than low bid and lose posterior!!! ;D
Quote from: Kodiakmac on January 12, 2016, 07:17:36 AM
Thanks for all the input and suggestions, lads. I'm going to tell him $85 CDN. He may choke on that, but that's okay. I've got other things to do with my machine anyways.
Coxy one thing I see rates vary a lot depending on location for any machine or service. Also stuff like this guy with very little work, old old skidder, no insurance, not reinvesting in it and so on. Equals one of these doing $3000 job for $1000 take care.
Quote from: coxy on January 11, 2016, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: Jamie_C on January 11, 2016, 05:21:29 PM
Cable skidders with less than 100hp are rated at between $50 and $55/hr by most mills here in Nova Scotia.
again not trying to be a wise guy but how do you guys pay bills at 55 an hour that's 440 a day 2200 a week if your paying fuel, repairs ,insurance maybe truck or skidder payment house or rent payment food clothing saws and parts oil and if you have to pay a helper maybe im missing something maybe im doing something wrong please help me out
I am looking at it as a landowner too, because at the end it has to make sense for him also.
Wood is only worth so much.
I would much rather work on a per cord or per mbf basis rather than a strict hourly rate. There is a better potential to make more money by getting the job done in less time that way. I have always made out better getting paid by the piece vs by the hour.
Kodiac,
I'm not a logger. While it may be interesting to compare what others charge for similar jobs the bottom line is what would it cost you to do the job and how much do you require for your labor/time/effort? That is what you need to quote and if you get the job, great. If not, no loss as I suspect you are in business for a profit, not as a community service.
I run a mobile sawmill service and everyone I know of around me charges more than me but I keep getting more and more work. They know what they are worth and I know what I am worth. I did my biggest job back in November/December and when I did my site visit and quoted on the job the guy said he had others quoting about 2/3 to 3/4 what I did. I told him no hard feelings if he used them then he told me go ahead and do the work. Not sure if he was BS'ing me or just happier with my work.
Good luck.
Quote from: mad murdock on January 12, 2016, 06:27:23 PM
I would much rather work on a per cord or per mbf basis rather than a strict hourly rate. There is a better potential to make more money by getting the job done in less time that way. I have always made out better getting paid by the piece vs by the hour.
But according to the OP
QuoteHe wants an hourly rate for me and my machine.
Kodiac,
Build the profit in first, not at the end.
Someone smarter than I uttered those words well before this post.
best luck,
if you get the project take some photos
since we here on the FF know... if there are no photo's it didn't happen!!
Dan
Haveing older paid for equipment means different things to different folks I guess.
To me it means it isn't hurting anything sitting right where it is at, nor is it wearing out or breaking down. If it isn't profitable, as in better than wages, then it doesn't move. I do not buy equipment to make wages period, why would anyone buy a job, when folks everywhere will pay you to have one??
My 75 an hr rate was a "down the road / friend rate", which was kind of what I thought the idea was. Bidding a job out to Joe blow, 125up. You guys would tar and feather me if I told you just how deep I stuck it in on these last couple clearings jobs I've done, but you've got to make money sometimes.
Around here I don't think I could make any money if I was skidding for volume for the average landowner, 99% of them have no concept of cordage, footage, or what stuff is really worth. I know wagner is paying 210 per MBFT right now to cut and skid, you keep the fw, if you had big payments to make your going to hustle to stay alive if fuel went back up.
I would say the $125 dollar would be good, but working by the hour if things aren't going good you can drop it down a gear and still get paid.
well there ant much if any logging around hear but i would don't think i would run any of my iron for less then 100 per h. i got a 201 tj and fixing up a red ram j5. don't sell you self short. just ask him what he work for a hour. i AL welding on the side at home in my shop and that's 100 cash per hour had not had any complainants. but logging is just a weekend think for me really just a reason to have more iron lol
100-125 an hour. Depending on the job. I get no less than 75 an hour and that's just me and a saw. If it is me and the machine, no saw work I usually get a minimum of 125 an hour up to 200 an hour with no complaints. But mind you the 200 an hour is for complex work. (75% of the time I work per thousand board feet but almost every job the mill will also pay by the hour on top of by the bdft for certain things. IE: road construction, water bars or site cleanups a previous "logger" left a mess) My time is extremely valuable so yours should be too, so I think you should get paid well for it.
Sometimes when things go wrong I make $0 an hour!
When I was working up to 2 years ago I started at $60/hour and went up from there. Of course it depended on the situation, are they a friend? Do I have a machine close by? Etc. I didn't care if it was just me, me and the skidder, saw, forwarder, whatever. I got paid the same whether I was marching or fighting.
Now in my neighborhood there is a logger on every corner which keeps our prices down. There is always some guy with junk equipment and no knowledge of his costs or what a profit margin is wanting to undercut you, but that's ok. The landowner usually gets what he pays for.
Quote from: timberlinetree on January 17, 2016, 07:14:33 AM
Sometimes when things go wrong I make $0 an hour!
Hahaha! Sometimes when things go wrong...I have to pay to work. :D
If you run your own equipment there will be weeks, even months that you get the luxory of paying to work. lol
Quote from: starmac on January 17, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
If you run your own equipment there will be weeks, even months that you get the luxory of paying to work. lol
how true those words are :D :) ;D 8) 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18202/logging_1.jpg)
quote author=dgdrls link=topic=87938.msg1348923#msg1348923 date=1452646970]
Kodiac,
...if you get the project take some photos
since we here on the FF know... if there are no photo's it didn't happen!!
Dan
[/quote]
Started on Friday. Got 2 days in. Mostly white ash, elm, Manitoba maple and silver maple from 10 to 18 inch diameter. Couple of good big bruisers too.
Working out well...I'm not doing much of the choking. :)
Looks like you have some good hard ground to work on too 8) .
Quote from: Ed_K on February 03, 2016, 02:37:29 PM
Looks like you have some good hard ground to work on too 8) .
Yup. It was okay up to last night...but it's 33 - 34F and raining right now, so things will have to get colder and stay there for a while or the trucker won't be able to get in. Supposed to get colder tomorrow night and stay seasonal for a while...hope they're right.
glad everything worked out for you :) stay safe
Quote from: Kodiakmac on February 03, 2016, 01:37:45 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18202/logging_1.jpg)
quote author=dgdrls link=topic=87938.msg1348923#msg1348923 date=1452646970]
Kodiac,
...if you get the project take some photos
since we here on the FF know... if there are no photo's it didn't happen!!
Dan
Started on Friday. Got 2 days in. Mostly white ash, elm, Manitoba maple and silver maple from 10 to 18 inch diameter. Couple of good big bruisers too.
Working out well...I'm not doing much of the choking. :)
[/quote]
Well done K'mac!! looks like a nice level and solid landing.
Dan
Wow! That looks like some nice flat ground. I wasn't sure trees grew on anything less than 30%. :D I'd like to try some of that flat stuff some day. ;D
Oh, and congratulations on landing an apparently nice job. smiley_thumbsup
I finished everything and the skidder is floated home. I did it for $95 CDN with the property owner supplying the fuel and paying the floating - that works out to about $72 USD at today's exchange rate.
Now that I have finished, I've had time to sit down and figure things out with a depreciation table my accountant just found for me on the internet. If I was asked to do the same thing tomorrow, I'd be charging no less than $120 CDN (a bit over $90 USD) and he would still be supplying the fuel and paying the floating.
So thanks for all the help and advice I got and I hope this might assist other FFers in the same position.
In comparison, I own and operate a small contracting business which mostly includes skid steer work, and snow plowing in the winter months. My skid steer is operated at $75/hr with me in it, Case 580 backhoe was $85/hr.
Both of these machines are modern, reliable and very reasonable to operate.
My latest Skidder is a TJ 350, 3-53 Detroit. It is my toy, and seldom used for any business purposes. In my opinion, I would be loosing money to hire it out for less than $100/hr.