Something is happening, Snowstorm you fill us in?? See they defaulted on bond payment!
You guys have a long road ahead up there. I hope you can stay busy woodhauler.
sworn to secrecy is what she told me. and that it looks alot like newpage a few yrs ago
my prediction is they will file bankruptcy by monday
Our forester told us they are filing Bankruptcy. We were told to not haul anymore wood in until things are reorganized.
i sorta know someone .......it hasnt happened yet.........and they are owed enought to buy several new possnes
or about 20 new freightliners
2.6 billion in debt! Wheew
Verso did not direct deposit our check yesterday. The wood buyer said Verso is withholding payments
there are or will soon be larger vendors to verso that will be looking for others that verso owes to sort of team up with to share legal cost.
its in the bangor paper verso to file chapter 11. this is gonna be a mess
Quote from: Pulpwood mafia on January 22, 2016, 06:24:52 AM
Verso did not direct deposit our check yesterday. The wood buyer said Verso is withholding payments
usually if you are considered a critical vendor. you supply raw material or truck there product to market. you do get paid just may take a while. same thing happened with new page a few yrs back
This isnt gonna be good, I know a big contractor for AFM that told me last fall that 90 percent of his wood goes to Verso in Jay, what are the big contractor's gonna do now? SAPPI won't be able to take all of the wood now going to Verso.
All of this has been anticipated since last fall. It is good that they are trying to get Chapter 11. If it was Chapter 13 it would be all over. If they have filed the paperwork there is a fairly good chance that they could get debtor in possession financing and get back to work soon. The Bankruptcy takes a big bite out of their interest cost and they were paying very high interest rates; I saw 11% interest on one of the bonds that they skipped payment.
the good in all this would be if they sell the jay mill to a real paper co. and get these investment cos, outout of it
Rumor here in Wisconsin..... No payments were made on Friday as Direct Deposit. Chapter 9 bankruptcy and that was supose to happen on Thursday Late. So now what...... There is also talk of shutting Mills down. What has happened in the Northeast USA???? To me is this a Repeat of New Page a few years back.... I am not a big Producer but we all cut wood because we like the wood and we all like a paycheck!!!!!
QuoteChapter 9 bankruptcy
It wouldn't be Chapter 9 that is only for municipalities. It will be Chapter 11 or 7. 11 is better because some of the mills would try to keep going; the bond holders would have to agree to take newly issued stock for the bonds that they hold and the stockholders would get nothing. 7 they basically auction everything off and pay back the senior creditors until they run out of money.
a repeat of new page.....sure looks like it
no money in my checkbook yet from verso.
I got paid from them Friday as usual...??
I just heard that a large local producer is out $100,000.00 for now. Another guy is wondering whether he'll get paid for the train load he took in last week.
No disrespect grass fed :) but I thought it was other way around. I have not heard of chapter 9 used to be chapter 12 or 13 one was for farmers but that got done away with. Never see these liquidations pay much off except the lawyers and secure creditors. I will say you are up on your bankrupt proceedings. :D ;D
Quote from: grassfed on January 24, 2016, 09:01:31 PM
QuoteChapter 9 bankruptcy
It wouldn't be Chapter 9 that is only for municipalities. It will be Chapter 11 or 7. 11 is better because some of the mills would try to keep going; the bond holders would have to agree to take newly issued stock for the bonds that they hold and the stockholders would get nothing. 7 they basically auction everything off and pay back the senior creditors until they run out of money.
Quote from: Corley5 on January 25, 2016, 09:22:37 AM
I just heard that a large local producer is out $100,000.00 for now. Another guy is wondering whether he'll get paid for the train load he took in last week.
My money was in the bank today. Not hauling anymore till this works out.
Not good if you worry about getting paid. I see some chain reactions coming from this multiple bankruptcies.
This may not belong here, but did anybody look at the " baltic dry index " lately ?
No or very few cargo ships on the North Atlantic.
i was off by one day on my prediction. verso has filed along with new page and everything else with the verso name on it. if you go to the Delaware bankruptcy court web site its all there
Well I can't read the filings but the thing to watch for is whether they can get something like Debtor in Possession financing. If they can they could be back buying wood very soon. I agree that it would be nice to see a paper company buy and run verso but I don't think that will happen and I just want to find a market for as much wood as I can. I sell to sappi but they will be full sooner now.
look under recently filed chapter 11 on delaware bankruptcy court site. there is close to 30 filed today under verso newpage
I saw the filings thanks, but I could not read them.
there is a lot of them
3 of there mills are for sale. jay Duluth and stevens point
Here is a link to the company's statement. http://investor.versoco.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=951676 (http://investor.versoco.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=951676)
Basically it is about as good as one could hope for based on the fact that they said they were looking at filing last November. I would not count out sending them wood but I would not want to get to far ahead of the checks.
Sappi will keep its long time suppliers going, the ones that came from verso may have trouble. Also there may be something too with verso paying the jay suppliers and not anyone else?? Jay mill may be around and others not??
Suppliers should read this https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES (https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES)
Bankruptcy draws a line between bills incurred before the filling date (jan 26) and the bills incurred after that date. If verso owes you money before the date you must file a claim to get paid and you might not get everything. If you sell them wood going forward they have to pay you because things are now controlled by the court.
Woodhauler you are safer selling them wood now when they are in Chapter 11 than you were before they filed.
Quote from: grassfed on January 26, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
Suppliers should read this https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES (https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES)
Bankruptcy draws a line between bills incurred before the filling date (jan 26) and the bills incurred after that date. If verso owes you money before the date you must file a claim to get paid and you might not get everything. If you sell them wood going forward they have to pay you because things are now controlled by the court.
Woodhauler you are safer selling them wood now when they are in Chapter 11 than you were before they filed.
Ask that to the contracters that had to pay newpage back!!!! Someone in the company told me to wait for a week or two! I'm following his advice.
I think that waiting a week is fine since they just filled today and it probably won't be approved for a few days. But you were at much higher risk of getting stiffed before they filled than you are after they start running under chapter 11.
If anybody paid money back to new page for goods and services that they delivered after a chapter 11 filing I did not hear about it. If they had paid me and the money was in my bank they would have to sue to get it back.
I lost a couple of weeks pay back in 1979 when a subcontractor I worked for went under. A week later the main contractor came in and rehired everyone that agreed to drop a claim against him...it might not have been legal but we needed to pay rent...maybe that is what the Newpage suppliers did.
Quote from: grassfed on January 26, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
I think that waiting a week is fine since they just filled today and it probably won't be approved for a few days. But you were at much higher risk of getting stiffed before they filled than you are after they start running under chapter 11.
If anybody paid money back to new page for goods and services that they delivered after a chapter 11 filing I did not hear about it. If they had paid me and the money was in my bank they would have to sue to get it back.
I lost a couple of weeks pay back in 1979 when a subcontractor I worked for went under. A week later the main contractor came in and rehired everyone that agreed to drop a claim against him...it might not have been legal but we needed to pay rent...maybe that is what the Newpage suppliers did.
I got the letter from newpage demanding me to repay them. Snowstorms wifes employer fought them in court,and won. Three contracters in know of had to pay back money.
Grassfed there is some law (you see it once in awhile) where they go back 3-6 months and make people pay back if a company goes bankrupt. It has something to do with hiding assets, I doubt it is highly successful with small amounts. Also my wife got burned similar to you she worked in a restaurant, it went under, and she did not get paid for the last week or two, many years ago >:(
Quote from: grassfed on January 26, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
I think that waiting a week is fine since they just filled today and it probably won't be approved for a few days. But you were at much higher risk of getting stiffed before they filled than you are after they start running under chapter 11.
If anybody paid money back to new page for goods and services that they delivered after a chapter 11 filing I did not hear about it. If they had paid me and the money was in my bank they would have to sue to get it back.
I lost a couple of weeks pay back in 1979 when a subcontractor I worked for went under. A week later the main contractor came in and rehired everyone that agreed to drop a claim against him...it might not have been legal but we needed to pay rent...maybe that is what the Newpage suppliers did.
It's possible they can recall payments made BEFORE they filed. If some parties had been paid "preferentially", and others had been stiffed completely it's legally possible to demand the money back. But this is usually intended to prevent directors "siphoning" money out, to a separate company, and leaving nothing for other creditors. It takes a court order to enforce, so it can be disputed in court, and often isn't successful.
Once a court appointed manager or receiver is in place the financials are effectively "reset". You get order forms from the receiver, have a new account set up, and will be paid from a new bank account. Once things reach that point you can be pretty sure you will be paid for NEW invoices. The overdue ones are "frozen" and you wait in line to be paid those.
This is to give a company a chance to trade out of trouble, be sold as a going concern, or refinance. If people got stiffed by the receiver for later invoices, there is no way the system could work. No one would supply them with anything. No power / phones / fuel / supplies etc. So the receiver sets up new utility and bank accounts etc to trade, and suppliers go along with this as the new debts are secure, and it's usually the best chance of recovering the outstanding debts.
Yes this is what I have been trying to say. The big danger of getting stiffed is before they file. If this chapter 11 is all set and in place it is a good thing and based on what the company is saying they are going to keep operations going. I am happy that this is happening but I know that in the long run they may still fail. I just think that it is nice to hear that there is not going to be a huge drop in demand for pulpwood this winter.
Ianab gave a great explanation of what is going on and how bankruptcy works
if verso owed you money before 3 am today [ the time they filed] you may or most likely will not get it all. anything after that your all set. there financing is in place. maybe they will have to behave now.
Quote from: grassfed on January 26, 2016, 11:48:05 AM
I think that waiting a week is fine since they just filled today and it probably won't be approved for a few days. But you were at much higher risk of getting stiffed before they filled than you are after they start running under chapter 11.
If anybody paid money back to new page for goods and services that they delivered after a chapter 11 filing I did not hear about it. If they had paid me and the money was in my bank they would have to sue to get it back.
I lost a couple of weeks pay back in 1979 when a subcontractor I worked for went under. A week later the main contractor came in and rehired everyone that agreed to drop a claim against him...it might not have been legal but we needed to pay rent...maybe that is what the Newpage suppliers did.
yes some paid some back. i heard about it every night sometimes all night. every news paper and tv news was calling my wife for an interview. when you are trying to collect well over 6 figures from a co that filed 11 you make the news. verso is well over 6 figures
We are back to shipping wood at the same price as before. Hopefully be 200 cord or so of ours hauled in by the weekend.
http://www.dailybulldog.com/db/features/verso-sells-local-hydroelectric-facilities/
A piece of the puzzle I was unaware of. I hope the paper plants
do better than the ones numerous companies tried to save here in NY
after the Hydro assets were sold off.
I wish all the folks at these plants and the folks who are involved
with pulp, logging and hauling the best,
Dan
Quote from: lopet on January 25, 2016, 09:57:15 PM
This may not belong here, but did anybody look at the " baltic dry index " lately ?
No or very few cargo ships on the North Atlantic.
This has been building up for awhile. Things could get very rocky. The worlds economy is slowing down.
Quote from: Corley5 on January 25, 2016, 09:22:37 AM
I just heard that a large local producer is out $100,000.00 for now. Another guy is wondering whether he'll get paid for the train load he took in last week.
have you heard any more about this? from what i am hearing this guy will not get all of the 100k owed him
I think there is something to not paying guys in some mills? Maybe they are on the chopping block? This could be a chance to close a couple more mills?
i heard this a while back that when its all said and done verso wants only 3 mills. luke and 2 in the lake states
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 08:01:02 AM
Quote from: Corley5 on January 25, 2016, 09:22:37 AM
I just heard that a large local producer is out $100,000.00 for now. Another guy is wondering whether he'll get paid for the train load he took in last week.
have you heard any more about this? from what i am hearing this guy will not get all of the 100k owed him
I haven't heard anymore but I'll make a couple calls later today and see what the word is.
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 08:06:44 AM
i heard this a while back that when its all said and done verso wants only 3 mills. luke and 2 in the lake states
Sappi is meeting with verso today. Fire sale time!
If Sappi buys Verso in Maine pulp prices will most likely drop since they were bidding against each other. I get $27 a ton right now after trucking. I'd probably stop cutting around $20 get a CDL and do some cross country driving. I'm going to CDL school this mud season if I can afford it. I can cut wood part time after that,.
the latest.......verso is not selling the jay mill there are going to run it
now whats going on...expera just sold the old town mill to mfgr llc
mfgr sounds like there are the one handling the auction at Lincoln pulp & paper
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
the latest.......verso is not selling the jay mill there are going to run it
we will see! buyers are looking. if its not for sale why keep courting them guys?
new imfo in the bangor paper
Quote from: Woodhauler on January 27, 2016, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
the latest.......verso is not selling the jay mill there are going to run it
we will see! buyers are looking. if its not for sale why keep courting them guys?
dont know but that was the text i got and you know where it came from
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
mfgr sounds like there are the one handling the auction at Lincoln pulp & paper
Another mill going to the crusher!
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 05:25:27 PM
Quote from: Woodhauler on January 27, 2016, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: snowstorm on January 27, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
the latest.......verso is not selling the jay mill there are going to run it
we will see! buyers are looking. if its not for sale why keep courting them guys?
dont know but that was the text i got and you know where it came from
Well I was told they are still shopping it around. Everything is for sale.
sounds like old town is going to the crusher also
in the bangor paper verso says there market declined because of imports. so did all the extra come from canada? or some from europe... finland sweden?? i read that lumber is being imported from sweden finland
if verso owes you for wood and they offer you $.25 on the dollar and say they will pay you if full a few months later....dont unless you read all the fine print or your lawyer dose. you may be never get the rest
Quote from: grassfed on January 26, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
Suppliers should read this https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES (https://www.versoco.com/wps/wcm/connect/6a552b43-db26-48ca-b955-6fd2b9ca5f73/Restructuring+-+SUPPLIERS+Frequently+Asked+Questions+FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES)
Bankruptcy draws a line between bills incurred before the filling date (jan 26) and the bills incurred after that date. If verso owes you money before the date you must file a claim to get paid and you might not get everything. If you sell them wood going forward they have to pay you because things are now controlled by the court.
Woodhauler you are safer selling them wood now when they are in Chapter 11 than you were before they filed.
they can go back 90 days before bankruptcy and ask for some of what they paid you back. thats what happened with new page. when i say they the judge desides. this could be a wild ride for some