This whole thing makes more sense with some back story...i apologize for the post, maybe I'm just long winded...
I grew up on a dying dairy farm and when the time hit I caught the first bus out of town... Eleven years later (wife and three kids too) after living in the City (Boston Area) the wife (also grew up on a dead farm) decide that the only way for us to live and be happy would be a self-sufficient life, lots of story here...
Anyway we are both really good with our hands, wood, metal, cloth, leather, synthetics (carbon fiber, plastics, etc) and decided that a fixer "dead farm" would be the ideal place for us to start... so we bought the one that needed the most work...12 months later now and as spring is quickly approaching I have 12 - 15 softwood logs laying on the old barn foundation and neighbors begging us to clean out more timber... we can't see hiring a mill when we know that building one is not outside of our realm of skills...
I write this to say... we are go getters, and the idea of making the mill a source of income is not outside possibility...so we would like to know... (and we know these questions have been asked before)
1.) Pulleys/Sheaves or Tires? - we want accuracy and durability
2.)what is first priority, saw head, track, band size?
3.)electric or fuel?
4.) Honestly, how much did you spend?
That was my last years project.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82853.0.html
Make it bigger than what you think you need
It only cost me $1280 to build mine and I'm very happy with it.
Here is mine
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82695.0.html
About $800 after the day before yesterday (new motor) and maby a bit more but that counts 10 blades.
You would not have a production mill with one like mine cause it is just too slow. It does cut enough to keep me busy with projects though.
Good luck
gww
I spent more, but buying a used mill I was able to start sawing within hours of getting it home. Time is money and IF you are thinking in terms of sawing for others it will pay the difference in a shorter amount of time. I envy those that have built their mills, but also know I wouldn't be able to build anything that performs as well as my mill. GOOD LUCK :)
Quote from: windyacres207 on January 30, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
I write this to say... we are go getters, and the idea of making the mill a source of income is not outside possibility...so we would like to know... (and we know these questions have been asked before)
1.) Pulleys/Sheaves or Tires? - we want accuracy and durability
2.)what is first priority, saw head, track, band size?
3.)electric or fuel?
4.) Honestly, how much did you spend?
1: I used tires and am happy with that choice. Tire selection may have a little to do with it, you need a SLIGHT crown in the cross-section
2: 1st - saw head, 2nd - track, band size is not a big deal in my opinion.
3: Mine is gas powered; if you have 3 phase electric power available, that would be great. Diesel would be better, not worth the extra cost for my hobby use.
4: After adding a home-made set-works (primitive but accurate) - ~ $3200 I could have purchased a mill for about that but it would not have nearly the capacity of the one I built (I love building things anyway).
den den
I looked in your gally at your pictures. Man that mill is a beast. Impressive.
gww
Quote from: windyacres207 on January 30, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
I write this to say... we are go getters, and the idea of making the mill a source of income is not outside possibility...so we would like to know... (and we know these questions have been asked before)
1.) Pulleys/Sheaves or Tires? - we want accuracy and durability
2.)what is first priority, saw head, track, band size?
3.)electric or fuel?
4.) Honestly, how much did you spend?
I once had a friend who was a "go getter". He would take his wife to work at 7:00 am, and about 4:00 pm he would get off the couch and "go getter". :D Just kidding. ;)
I built my mill in the mid 90's, so what it cost wouldn't be relative in todays world.
Of the choices you listed, sheaves. If I had it to do over, I'd order band wheels from Cook's.
First priority? The saw head, carriage, and track are all integral parts to the mill. It will only be as accurate, and strong as the least of these. As far as band size, you have a lot of other things to determine before making a choice there. If you're going to run over 50 horse power, and sawing softwood, you might look at 2" bands for speed. But 1 1/4" bands work pretty good for most folks. I run 1 1/2" bands because I can, and that's what I set up for when I built, but 1 1/4" might do me just as well.
Electric or fuel? Do you want to be portable? If so, fuel is the obvious choice. If you're going to be stationary electric might be a good choice, if you already have 3 phase on the property. The electric company wanted 12 grand to put 3 phase across a county road onto my place...I can buy a lot of fuel for 12 grand. I'm running a 1600cc VW engine on mine, but I've got a 40 horse Mitsubishi diesel waiting in the wings.
I have a TimberKing 2000. the log when cut will result in 3 groups.
1 = dimensional lumber
2 = almost dimensional lumber
3 = scrap or firewood
and of sawdust
pile 2 will contain lumber that is dimensional on 2 or 3 sides, and random lengths
I usually cut my slabs as 1x or 2x. next is a dry area to stack the usable lumber. stack of 1x, another of 2x, and so on.
Thanks everyone!
reading through inspires another question, has anyone converted from tire hubs to sheaves once they had some cash under their belt? It seems that with a 1.5" shaft in a large trailer hub i could eventually throw an H type hub on it and slide some nice big sheaves in...
A possibility that might be worth looking at is buying a head from a manufacturer (if they'll work with you) and building your own track. As for track length, I would build it as big as you think you need, then add another 12 foot to it! I made my mill from a flat stack of steel and hardware parts from Linn Lumber that came as a kit with blueprints. I'm glad I did it this way for the memories and satisfaction but would never do it again. Hopefully you don't have the troubles I have building stuff from scratch. Cost me around $3500 total, I think, for a 13hp mill that'll cut 34" across and I think 36" high, maybe more, and I can squeeze a 17 foot log on if needed.
windyacres207,welcome to the forum.
Go long!!! :D I bought a Thomas sawmill. I wanted the options to cut 20 foot logs,so I had them add on 4 feet onto the mill. Never cut a 20 foot log yet,BUT,that extra four feet is a great thing to have. I can put a 16 foot log on and have 4 feet of room,instead of inches. That 4 more feet allows me to get the sawhead out of the way. Yes,it cost more,but the pay back to make things better was worth it.
My max cut length is 13' 9". My advice is this. On the tire versus pully and also on the length of cut. Do what you need the first time because once it is cutting good enough, it is very hard to stop and retrofit things that you now want. Maby I am the only one that this is hard for? I have found in building that 13 feet is not long enough. It is fine for 8x10 sheds but the pavillion we built we hat to buy 20 2x4s twenty footers and 6 4x4 Sixteen footers. I have more railing to lengthen the track but can't seem to make myself do it cause I am getting by working around my limmitations.
I see this all the time. My uncle built a house that could have had a 5 acre lake in his back yard for $15000. Had he did it, it would have been payed for by now. Now that same lake would be $35000 or more.
I don't get many logs that I could cut something 20 foot out of but I have also had to cut off ends of logs cause I couldn't get two logs out of it. Fire wood.
Do the work while you are in the mood and before you can't shut its production down to do it later. Later never comes.
Good luck
gww
Quote from: windyacres207 on January 30, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
1.) Pulleys/Sheaves or Tires? - we want accuracy and durability
2.)what is first priority, saw head, track, band size?
3.)electric or fuel?
4.) Honestly, how much did you spend?
1. I went with tires. There is a limit to how tight you can get the blades using air filled tires. If you want accuracy I would suggest going with Sheaves rather than tires. And if you are buying everything new building with sheaves may be cheaper than going with tires. If you are scrounging stuff tires and axel bearings are much easier to find.
2.I would build the head first. Maybe keeping in mind common band sizes(you can have any length of blade made by the major band saw companies and it doesn't cost any more than a standard blade) Once you have the head build you will be able to figure out what is needed for a bed.
3.Electric is probably cheaper to run and fewer mechanical problems but if you want to run a motor larger than about 10 hp you probably need 3 phase. If you are scrounging parts it is much easier to find a 10-30 hp gas engine then a similar sized electric motor. Gas has the problems that come with small gas engines and requires a clutch or some way to disengage the blade. If you go with gas you can run the mill anywhere. If you go with electric you need to be within the length of your extension cord of power and if you go with three phase you probably won't be able to move the mill.
4. Building my mill and my first 12 blades cost about $800 using scrap material. Since then I probably put another $600 into it(New starter,two new batteries, points, 5 new coils{it eats coils for some reason} new flywheel{I tipped the head over while it was running at full speed} a trailer axle and a hitch)
Then you have to keep in mind all the tools required to run a mill: chainsaw, cant hook, pry bar(s), chains and cables, maybe some way to move logs such as a trailer, dolly or tractor, come a long jacks, winch, sharpening and setting equipment, blades. You don't need everything on the list.
Quote from: windyacres207 on January 31, 2016, 08:00:38 AM
Thanks everyone!
reading through inspires another question, has anyone converted from tire hubs to sheaves once they had some cash under their belt? It seems that with a 1.5" shaft in a large trailer hub i could eventually throw an H type hub on it and slide some nice big sheaves in...
As mentioned above, if you do not already have wheels and tires it is probably cost effective to start with sheaves. It should be possible to use greater tension with sheaves than with tires but this is only true if the frame, axles etc is stiff enough to maintain alignment with that much tension. I found a good deal on 40mm pillow block bearings so that is my axle size, seemed overbuilt at the time but is probably closer to minimum size than too big.
As far as shaft size goes, I used 1 1/2" shafts and that would be minimum size shafts in my opinion. Pillow block bearings? What's that saying? You can pay me now, or you can pay me later. Buy quality bearings, they hurt more at purchase, but you'll be happy in the end.
My band saw wheels took a 30 millimeters shaft. Thats 1.18110236 inches.
So I bought high carbon steel.
The TK 2000 is a great mill, BUT i wish i could move the log length ways. and it had two log turners. the largest log i have had on it was a Green pine, 32 inch by 18 foot. the longest the mill will do is 21 foot, and i do not mean 21 foot 1 inch. Heavy and could almost not turn it.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,84779.msg1316189.html#msg1316189
I have had my TK-2000 for a couple of years now and i LOVE IT.
Setworks = 9 out of 10.
Remote throttle = 8 out of 10. needs to move slower by 15%
Hydraulics = 8 out of 10.
log loader = 9 out of 10. needs to lift new log about 2 inches higher to have it role onto the bed without help.
log turner = 8 out of 10. has trouble rolling LARGE logs, 32 inch by 18 foot.
toe board 8 out of 10. rams need to be moved more to the log stops to prevent twisting of toe boards.
Log stops = 9 out of 10.
Log clamp = 9 out of 10.
FYI, no mill is a 10 out of 10. there are always room for improvement.
now looking at how to do a dust collector system. 55 gallon barrel is not enough.
My mill is built with pulleys for the drive sheaves(18.75" from surplus center were very reasonably priced) that are supported on both sides with pillow block bearings(1.5 shaft diam). Using tires and then converting to sheaves could be doable depending on how you build it. My sheaves are supported on both sides with pillow blocks which is probably stronger, but harder to change the tires(belts in the v pulley) I have seen others(and most setups that use tires) that are supported with the bearings just on one side.(cantilevered) There seem to be pluses and minuses to both designs.
My mill is 22 hp, I do have some hydraulics and I have around $3000 in it. It is not painted yet and did use a bunch of used parts that I already had...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35957/100_1746.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35957/100_1744.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35957/100_1716.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35957/100_1747.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35957/IMG_1211.JPG)
Quote from: windyacres207 on January 30, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
1.) Pulleys/Sheaves or Tires? - we want accuracy and durability
2.)what is first priority, saw head, track, band size?
3.)electric or fuel?
4.) Honestly, how much did you spend?
My build story: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,84444.msg1290881.html#msg1290881
(https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,84444.msg1290881.html#msg1290881)
1.) I used rear hubs (front wheel drive car) from a Toyota and fit them with free doughnut spare tires.
2.) My priority was width of cut. That lead to blade width typical of that cut (1.25" blade). That lead to a wheel diameter (> 21" - mine are 21.5"). Built the head and that gave me the track width (44").
3.) Started out electric but switched to gas.
4.) I bought all new steel for the 32'+ track (2x4x.25 box with 2x3x.25 angle on top). Add the used 18hp motor, 15 new sawblades (WM), hubs (pic-n-pull) and welding supplies - about $1,600. Everything else was free CraigsList finds, etc.
4b.) Priceless - love to build stuff and figure out what went wrong or how to improve.
Welding introduced a slight valley in each section of track (1/16" - 3/32") along the length but the way the wood moves, not too concerned.
Oh man.... So MUCH INFO....
I actually spent the day breaking down an old trailer...two 8' 4x5x.25 box beams and a bunch of smaller stuff...
I have a few sketches drawn up ill try to attach the head diagram... note three cross beams, should absorb all the torque and make the carriage only for lifting and pushing....
I had figured a 1.5" shaft with pillow blocks figuring about 40" between sheave centers (yep gonna fork over for some 19" sheaves....)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/41992/IMG_20160201_183805829.jpg)
WisconsinTimber
how are you adjusting the toe of the idle sheave? I like the bearings on both sides of the sheave.
What are the downsides to that build?
Since you are still on the drawing board, some tricks I've learned and seen others document...
It is VERY important to be able to easily change the angle (toe-in/toe-out) of BOTH your wheels. You want to be able to have your blade track exactly where it needs to be at full tension WITHOUT your blade guide rollers installed. Then you add the guides, pushing down on the blade about 1/4 - 3/8".
On mine, I was able to swing my wheels probably close to 1/2" either way of center/flat. This has to work independently of your blade tension setup and drive belt setup. Also note that your driven wheel should be PULLING the blade through the wood, not pushing it.
does anyone have a good pic of their toe adjustment set up?
Before painting... Works great...
The little bolt moves the whole block. The band saw wheel shaft is welded to the block.
Lots of mills track in all four directions. I dont think it's needed. I only track right to left.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Tracking_bolt_3.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Tracking_bolt_2.jpg)
I agree with Kbeitz in that only right to left tracking is needed. Pay close attention when building so that everything is perfectly straight and plumb. Left to right tracking keeps the blade on under tension. The blade guides take up whatever might be needed to make the blade perfectly flat and level in the cut. I have found that if the blade stays on when installed and loose it'll stay on under tension. This requires zero flex in the saw frame and so must be stout enough.
Sorry, I don't have a close up of my toe adjustment, but both the drive and idler are adjustable. The bolt holes in the pillow blocks are slotted so there is plenty of adjustment there as long you have them mounted straight to begin with. I built a bracket on the tension side of each pillow block and threaded in an adjustment bolt to push against the end of the pillow block to adjust and help hold...
I don't know if that make any sense or not? :-\
The only downside that I see to the design that I used is that it will be time consuming to change the tire/belt on the sheave because the pillow blocks will have to be unbolted to get the belt on and then realigned. I have yet to change a belt so they seem to last pretty good!
It's too bad a link belt couldn't be used in this application.
Quote from: Ox on February 02, 2016, 04:48:24 PM
It's too bad a link belt couldn't be used in this application.
yea I wish that to.
I have over 3000 feet of that stuff. anywhere from 3/8" to double sided 1" stuff.
But link-belt is not good for moveing power. Even the good stuff that I dont think is sold any
more is not good for high power stuff...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/link_belt.jpg)
Maybe Ox was not thinking of that link belt that is riveted, but this Fenner design. I use it to remove vibration from regular belts.
http://www.fennerdrives.com/powertwist-plus/
Thanks Keibtz.
As far as flex and the saw head goes, as heavy as it may end up (just an excuse to make a power feed....) I'm thinking 3x3x.25" box... is the consensus that that would be thick enough? i think that this and maybe the rails may be the only steel i have to buy
Quote from: beenthere on February 02, 2016, 06:43:34 PM
Maybe Ox was not thinking of that link belt that is riveted, but this Fenner design. I use it to remove vibration from regular belts.
http://www.fennerdrives.com/powertwist-plus/
yeah... could drop some serious cash on that site....i really like a few of their hub setups...
Quote from: beenthere on February 02, 2016, 06:43:34 PM
Maybe Ox was not thinking of that link belt that is riveted, but this Fenner design. I use it to remove vibration from regular belts.
http://www.fennerdrives.com/powertwist-plus/
i have used link-belt for years in the textile world.
PowerTwist belts dont even come close to the quality of the stuff in my picture.
If you slip the belt with PowerTwist it melts.
But I dont think what I have is being made anymore.
I was only thinking that it was too bad there wasn't a sectional belt with the profile of a v belt for those applications where you have to unbolt a shaft to slip the belt over a pulley. Power King garden tractors are this way, if you have a model with the hydraulics. You have to unbolt the engine and pulley/clutch shaft and slide the whole mess forward to change the hydraulic pump belt. I put a new one on and wired a second new one in place so it doesn't touch anything, just so's I ain't gotta do that again for awhile!
For adjusting my band saw the driven band wheel is adjustable in and out and on the idler band wheel there is the blade tensioner as well as the toe in adjustment against the band blade tension.
With a solid enough beam technically it would be all the adjustment needed and rather easily done.
Quote from: Ox on February 03, 2016, 08:59:39 AM
I was only thinking that it was too bad there wasn't a sectional belt with the profile of a v belt for those applications where you have to unbolt a shaft to slip the belt over a pulley. Power King garden tractors are this way, if you have a model with the hydraulics. You have to unbolt the engine and pulley/clutch shaft and slide the whole mess forward to change the hydraulic pump belt. I put a new one on and wired a second new one in place so it doesn't touch anything, just so's I ain't gotta do that again for awhile!
Yea I got 5 PowerKing tractors and the link belt does work fine for the pump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/3_sleeping_Beauties.JPG)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on February 03, 2016, 09:40:07 AM
For adjusting my band saw the driven band wheel is adjustable in and out and on the idler band wheel there is the blade tensioner as well as the toe in adjustment against the band blade tension.
With a solid enough beam technically it would be all the adjustment needed and rather easily done.
Do you have a pic of both sides?
Thanks, Kbeitz. That's good to know. I gotta stop this thread drift thing, it's a bad habit I seem to have.
Quote from: Ox on February 03, 2016, 07:51:13 PM
Thanks, Kbeitz. That's good to know. I gotta stop this thread drift thing, it's a bad habit I seem to have.
Yea I think we all do it... Some like me has the habit more than others.
But it's all about learning. One thing leads to another.
I'll try to keep under control.
Quote from: windyacres207 on February 03, 2016, 07:28:54 PM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on February 03, 2016, 09:40:07 AM
For adjusting my band saw the driven band wheel is adjustable in and out and on the idler band wheel there is the blade tensioner as well as the toe in adjustment against the band blade tension.
With a solid enough beam technically it would be all the adjustment needed and rather easily done.
Do you have a pic of both sides?
To be clear I was talking about a wood shop band saw not a sawmill.
Sorry no pictures, you could watch a youtube video called "How-To: Bandsaw Tracking & Coplaner Adjustment" by Grizzly tools that explains it quite well. Also if you haven't looked at Cook's saw online store for parts and ideas it would be worth a look, the also have technical videos that are worth watching.
Quote from: Ox on February 03, 2016, 07:51:13 PM
... I gotta stop this thread drift thing, it's a bad habit I seem to have.
Here at the Forestry Forum, a thread has not really drifted until it turns to FOOD! And even that's not bad...
Herb
instead of sourcing from a manufacturer for guides... has anyone here used flange bearings instead of, say the cooks guides?
seems like i could use a bigger diameter for a longer life... an idea
also had anyone used linear bearings on their saw head for vertical travel?
Quote from: windyacres207 on February 13, 2016, 01:34:18 PM
also had anyone used linear bearings on their saw head for vertical travel?
I put linear bearing on another saw I made. They give problems when used outside.
What problems arose? Did you use linear rails with slides and an acme to lift? Electric actuator?
can i post a youtube link here to show what im thinking? its not my video
windy
I have posted you tube vidio links to show what I ment and have never been yelled at because of it. I would like to see what you are meaning.
gww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7IHI3l_d3g
except with steel, i just wonder about the wear of the bearings into the steel....
one would be able to control the plumbness and squareness of their mill to a pretty high degree
I think the big key in being able to do that would be that the head itself took all the force from the wheels and bands, then the carriage is only responsible to lifting the head and moving it down the log, if the stance is wide enough - I'm planning 36" right now, then the torque stress should be distributed to a minimal degree on each bearing....
I wouldn't get too hung up on the need for precision bearings. Your cutting wood (rough cut) that, if you want "perfect", you would run through a thickness planner. Also, if your tolerances are too tight, a little bit of wood chip/sawdust is going to wreak havoc. With my simple setup, I was able to cut an 1/8" slices that didn't vary more than 1/32" or so - way better than I was hoping. Once your blade gets a little dull, hits a knot and start to wander, it won't make a difference. ;) That's my 2 cents!
a good two cents... I make prosthetic limbs for a living... I tend to over think some things.... and not think about other things...
Quote from: windyacres207 on February 14, 2016, 11:26:50 AM
I think the big key in being able to do that would be that the head itself took all the force from the wheels and bands, then the carriage is only responsible to lifting the head and moving it down the log, if the stance is wide enough - I'm planning 36" right now, then the torque stress should be distributed to a minimal degree on each bearing....
I think that could work well. Realize that the final result depends for a big part on the alignment of the blade which is done with the blade guides. I also made the wheels and whole head adjustable in a lot of directions which turned out to be less important then the blade guides. Here's how I did the up-down rollers for the head, they work fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31167/DSC_2174.jpg)
Quote from: roghair on February 14, 2016, 06:39:16 PM
Quote from: windyacres207 on February 14, 2016, 11:26:50 AM
I think the big key in being able to do that would be that the head itself took all the force from the wheels and bands, then the carriage is only responsible to lifting the head and moving it down the log, if the stance is wide enough - I'm planning 36" right now, then the torque stress should be distributed to a minimal degree on each bearing....
I think that could work well. Realize that the final result depends for a big part on the alignment of the blade which is done with the blade guides. I also made the wheels and whole head adjustable in a lot of directions which turned out to be less important then the blade guides. Here's how I did the up-down rollers for the head, they work fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31167/DSC_2174.jpg)
What are you using for rollers?
Your build looks fantastic!
I think you call it pallet pump? I mean the wheels from a pallet pump. Bought a box full of them on an auction and someone machined them for me on a lathe.