When a log is taken to the mill and a check is written.
How much goes to the logger?
How much to the truck driver? (if contracted out)
How much for the landowner?
Is veneer a different rate?
I didn't know if it was a standard price or a percentage deal. Ive seen it both ways but that was years ago. This is for hardwood lumber and pulp no softwoods if that matters.
thanks
its all different 30% 40% 50% depends on the wood nice hard wood will go 40- 50% depending on how hard it is to get out I some times ask land owners to help if I have to put in stone or other things if there getting 50% I think its fair trucking comes off the top before any thing is split same with veneer
Exactly what he said. Anywhere from 40-50% usually. Regionally I think things are done a little diff, here I have wagner come pick it up, landowner is welcome to stand in the cold and watch the scaler. :D
same thts here how long is the skid, how steep the ground, how good is the wood, how much road building, gravel and landing construction, top lopin for the deer hunters, how extensive of a cleanup are we working on a class a trout stream could go on and on
Doesn't seem worth it log your property with prices so low. Its a once or twice a lifetime thing Id rather hold out as a landowner.
you could hire a forester have him mark it give him 15% and have him watch over the sale sometimes it is amazing what mills will pay for standing timber I don't get the same for logs cut and put roadside or delivered to the mill for that matter if you don't like the bids you can through it out and not do anything except pay the forester for his time
You can hold out til it's dead too. Trees are like humans they have a life span. once there past there prime the older they get the quality goes down and does the value. We see it a lot here.
Foresters and sawmill bought wood. >:( bad subject today. Had 6 bids on this last job I walked, I was 2nd highest. Wagners was 2x what mine was. I don't think for a second that 1 extra ounce of effort will go into the job, they will cut the best and run. They just cut 2 other local jobs, left - girdled half of it, then I read on hear about landowners crying about proper management.
Another logger who I've recently met off the FF had an interesting quote, "don't make the landowner your partner". What's fair is fair, but paying 60-70% on stumpage is almost unheard of around here. Certain lots, which require a short skid, awesome wood, you could justify more if conditions where right.
Barge monkey you know the new mill cuts 100,000 board feet a day. big mill big mouth to feed. It's hard to compete with that. if they want it bad enough they'll buy it.However, one hand washes the other.
They said that mill is the most efficient on the east coast. 12mbdft an hr is what I'm being told, with the other head saw running it gets up over 20. It's a double edge sword, just about everyone around here is feeding them wood. My relative cuts 2-3mil for them a yr, on ground I want no part off. For 210.00 per MBFT I'm half tempted to jump on the bus.
they keep me 🤑
I usually go 50%. The first time I had it cut,I got 60%. I've had my cut 3 times so far,170 acres and I got quite a chunk of change. And then some. I have heard of other people that had they land cut by other so called loggers. I say so called because I can tell by the way they talked,they did not get much money. But I had and still have some good trees to cut. The last time he did a thinning,did not get as much money as the other 2 times.
Quote from: woodman1876 on February 08, 2016, 07:05:06 PM
Doesn't seem worth it log your property with prices so low. Its a once or twice a lifetime thing Id rather hold out as a landowner.
what you mean prices are low? hard wood prices are good, pine is down from what it was a few years ago but it all fluctuates. don't pay any attention to rumors.
Part of the problem is explaining in a clear fashion the difference between logs and pulpwood to the landowner. They see a load of pulp and think it should pay the same as a load of nice logs.
I try to educate them on the difference. The best way I have found so far is to explain that logs are used to make lumber and that pulp is used to make paper or fuel. They seem to get it then.
Cherry and red oak are half the price they were about 10 years ago. Ive talk to loggers who said they selling wood for the same price they did 20 years ago. Hard and soft maple is up though.
There was a period where it was over valued and consequently a correction. Those extremely high prices will never return IMO...
Quote from: woodman1876 on February 09, 2016, 08:11:40 AM
Cherry and red oak are half the price they were about 10 years ago. Ive talk to loggers who said they selling wood for the same price they did 20 years ago. Hard and soft maple is up though.
i'v not seen any thing drop that far except pine. and i agree that won't go back to the all time high.
Ok, I got it now. You got your woodlot walked by a couple local loggers and didn't like what you heard, so you figured you would ask on here hoping for the answer you really wanted. Fair enough.
"Half" isn't quite right, yes oak is coming back but not what it was. Cherry is ok. HM and SM are paying but what's great $$$ ???
A decent reputable logger / forester can make or break your woodlot. Around here a cut every 10-15yrs is common, working around and releasing the good stuff that's not quite ready. Taking the highest bid blindly has worked out great for alot of landowners, if you read the past threads you can see that. :D
So much goes into it, from proper harvesting techniques, bucking for grade and knowing what logs to sell to which mill. Utilization is key, and it varies greatly by region. I willing to bet 99% of us on here have more wood / work than we can handle, didn't get there by paying more than the stuff was worth. I average 2-3 woodlots a month I walk, some I buy and some I walk away from.
Not quite had trees sold 20 years ago. Cherry was 650 now its 570. 1 dollar twenty years ago was worth a lot more than 1 dollar today. I'm sure your guys cost for fuel manpower equipment etc has gone up a lot over the years and the price of timber hasn't keep pace. I know a lot of loggers came and went when during that high price boom. Was your cut (logger) less during those years with timber prices were high and now your share is more of a % to stay fair for your logging costs?
no......i'd say most all of us take our % of falling price just like the land owner. in other words the land owner still gets 50% no matter the price.
what makes you think you know what the prices are doing if your not in the industry? like i said, do not pay attention to rumors, they are just that.
I'm in agreement with Woodsman on this. I'm not a fan of percentage contracts. I did do one about a year ago though. I received 30% of the delivered price and I did the hauling. That's 30% on the pulp/ firewood, 30% on the veneer sold direct to the manufacturer, 30% on the sawlogs. It was steep ground , a long skid, much of it uphill . It was not slamming timber, it was above average in size and quality, heavy to SM with RO being #2 . My goal was about 200mbf To CSH which is in line with the market price. Landowners have a tough time making $ as timber is not a great investment. Being that timber/ logs/ lumber are a commodity it is subject to pricing that has nothing to do with time but timing. I'll put on my hard hat.
Number 2 logs maybe 570. If your woods are full of low grade then you can't expect much. Quality hardwoods average considerably higher than that.
There is plenty of pricing on this forum if you look hard enough. without knowledge of the wood lot local, quality of the timber, (judged by someone who knows)and effort of removing it.( WV isn't exactly flat and urban)there is no way of giving hard numbers. IMO
landowners have a hard time making money on their timber? i suppose the evil logger is rolling in money, what with all the free equipment and fuel and insurance and what not.
Why are you calling loggers Evil ?
Just in case things change in tone.
bat_smailey
I always figured the woodlot owner was the boss of his ground, just as the logger is of his outfit. Make an agreement that fits both parties or walk away. Around here the majority of woodlot owners these days never leave the road, thus they don't really know what they have for inventory. Very few hire anyone to help them find out. If it's free, that's another story. Mostly, it's loggers around here that hire an inventory. Rarely is there a plan for the woodlot and if so, almost never followed. That's just reality in this region. Every time woodlots have a harvest around the area I grew up, it's a clear cut. You have an 80-100 year wait after that. But many try to make a buck in 30 year wood the size of fence posts. The big question is "How come your wood is so small?" I wonder. ;) A farm just sold this past summer in the area, several hundred acres of farmland. First thing done, is level the woods. It won't be cleared to farm. The cycle continues.
around here if you do it by percentages its 60% for the land owner , some places its 70% .
E&S plans,permitting,licensing fees, swamp mats,silt fence, stone access points,water bars maintained daily, road bonds, heavy highway road use tax,...🙄
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on February 09, 2016, 04:05:16 PM
landowners have a hard time making money on their timber? i suppose the evil logger is rolling in money, what with all the free equipment and fuel and insurance and what not.
The price will be what ever the market will bear. The logger has to make money and I'm sure wants to a raise like everyone else. I'm sure the equipment and fuel and insurance go up every year. The logger has to raise their rates to pay for everything. If everything cost wise goes up and timber prices stay the same id think the landowner would have to take less right? Its got to get harder to make money?
Do most of you on the forum use percentages? My loggers told me what they charged per hour for them and the machinery, and whether I make money or not depends on how much the trees are worth at the mill. Hauling will vary a bunch depending on where the logs go, it was $220/load to go from my place to Willamina. The loggers also spent a bunch of time widening the turn off my bridge so that the log truck could get out, so I lost money on that little sale. I knew I would, the only reason I did it is my wife wanted the trees gone so we would have more sunlight at the house. The rest of my place won't be ready for a commercial thinning for a few more years.
If log prices fall I'll let the trees grow. Douglas-Fir lives several hundred years.
The landowners feel they don't make enough. The loggers don't feel they make enough. Uncle Sam doesn't feel like he makes enough. Logs grow slow, log money spends fast. It's absurdly dangerous and difficult work logging, and if you make it safer and easier you do so by financing absurdly expensive machines. The timber owner has to hold his breath and pay taxes on his land for years to finally cut logs, and it's almost always less $ than he expected. The only people I know who really think they make a lot of money having their logs cut are people who inherited land. That's called a windfall. I don't know anyone who thinks they make a lot of money cutting logs. I'm sure there is someone out there ;D
Percentage is the majority here. There are a lot of costs associated with sale. If your logging for 70/30 absorbing costs like putting in skid roads, landings, surveying,management plans bonds permits. Your struggling to make anything. IMO.....if the mill or forester is absorbing it then it's another story...the moral of the story is there are way to many variables to say who's making money and who isn't.
Here in my area timber is paid for up front before a tree is ever cut. And bidding with alot of different companys you have to be on your toes. Bids can come in just a few dollars apart or thousands of dollars apart. No body said it was easy thats why they call it logging ;). With the bidding prosess the landowner can see the range of bids and when he picks a logger he should be happy :D.
The mills have a strangle hold on most of the timber here. They have such a dominate position that they wiped out the logging capacity. The system is broke.
I pay on a percentage but it's not straight across the board. Grade logs, veneer, flooring bolts, pallet bolts, basswood pulp, aspen pulp, hardwood pulp all have their own %. I pay by the cord for processed firewood.
PLEASE QUIT USING THOSE PHONE EMOJIES! THEY DO NOT WORK ON THE FORESTRY FORUM!
Quote from: Corley5 on February 09, 2016, 05:54:32 PM
I pay on a percentage but it's not straight across the board. Grade logs, veneer, flooring bolts, pallet bolts, basswood pulp, aspen pulp, hardwood pulp all have their own %. I pay by the cord for processed firewood.
I do it this way as well, changing my percentages depending on skid length and size of timber.
I see the emojis
Quote from: woodman1876 on February 09, 2016, 05:05:28 PM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on February 09, 2016, 04:05:16 PM
landowners have a hard time making money on their timber? i suppose the evil logger is rolling in money, what with all the free equipment and fuel and insurance and what not.
The price will be what ever the market will bear. The logger has to make money and I'm sure wants to a raise like everyone else. I'm sure the equipment and fuel and insurance go up every year. The logger has to raise their rates to pay for everything. If everything cost wise goes up and timber prices stay the same id think the landowner would have to take less right? Its got to get harder to make money?
your not understanding.......let me put it a different way, if the price goes down BOTH the logger and landowner make less. price goes up they both make more. this is on % and imo the only fair way. if come and look at your timber but you want all your money up front, do not think i will price it with a cushion slightly less than i think it will bring? it wouldn't take long for me to go out of business if i priced slightly over many times.
but this is all a moot point, no one can give you a price per tree, every log and every tree may be a different price unless its pine or pulp. meaning there is no guaranteed price and no one has x ray vision to see inside a tree. the very best way to find out what its worth is to invite several well known loggers to come and give an estimate. the honest guys will all be within 10% of each other. if your timber is mature or diseased, its time to harvest. if its a healthy growing stand, you have time.
Quote from: Jeff on February 09, 2016, 04:37:10 PM
Just in case things change in tone.
bat_smailey
sorry Jeff. just rang like things i have herd before from folks that didn't know what they were talking about. i will remain civil or silent.
So many variables depending on each individual job which have all been mentioned. I find in my business once we agree on the stumpage price and the other incidentals and we have a written document explaining it very thorough I always offer the scale slips from the mill so they the landowner can see how much and what has arrived at the mill and that reflects there payment. I never show them the money end as we have agreed already on the stumpage. These scale slips seem to help the landowner gain trust in the harvester. I am not a fan of lump sum pmt's as the landowner always thinks the logger is makin out as well as the forester once the trucks and loads start moving. Just my opinion with respect to you landowners and foresters out there. I have a couple of years work ahead with repeats that I have to fit in between, works for me in my neck of the woods.
With the percentage spilt if just seems to me that it would be more and more difficult to make it as a logger. I saw on a graph of timber prices I looked up cherry 1992 average 400 and in 2013 average 380. (approx. just looking at the chart) It had to been cheaper to operate in the early 90's compared to now? I know there's crews that have to give the landowner less percentage wise now than before so they could make a profit. I know every job would be different. Seems like a hard pill to swallow if your getting paid less than you were twenty years ago weather its timber, cows or widgets. Do you pass up on a lot of jobs now that wouldn't make sense for you to cut money wise where it would in the early 2000's when timber was high? Is the a lot of land owners willing to take a lower than normal amount to get you to log their property if they really want it done?
you keep talking about prices being low but i submit to you they are not. to start with you cannot say all cherry pays x per thousand, that is not true. there will be at least 6 grades besides sawlog. i would say the average price for all hardwood is good. you cannot go by some chart you found online.
I'm going to say Treeslayer hasn't been in bisiness for 30 or more years. When figuring for inflation log prices on average are lower now than in the last 25+ years. As for percentage purchases, it's not usually done around here. Walk the job, mark the wood, make an offer. Sometimes 1/2 up front, 1/2 when the job is 1/2 done. Sometimes it's all up front, but it's lump sum.
I don't get no money until they start hauling the wood. I had a logger here cutting for a few weeks. Yes,he was doing a thinning,the wood was being stacked,but no wood was being trucked. I've had him here 2 other times,he told me what was going to happen. The forwarder was busy on the last job. Just like when he was done cutting,but the forwarder was still here a few weeks after he was gone. I get paid weekly,by whatever wood was trucked. The guy that cuts for me will not bid on wood. He use to do ALOT of lots for the paper company. They started to require bids and he was not going to do it. Now he just cuts for private land owners.
I know some guys lost everything they had buying timber up front when the market plummeted. High value Appalachian hard wood has risen steadily with the exception of the bubble crash, since 1989 has it not? I have seen scale tickets from previous jobs that the land owners kept. And what I saw looked like it's going up.maybe not with inflation.I know soft wood and low grade hard wood hasn't moved much.....at least not here.. Post some numbers. I'm sure someone here has some hard numbers for 25 years ago. Apples for apples .
Markets change everything. I like to pay as I go. It works out better. But sometimes lump sum for the job is mandatory.
Quote from: ga jones on February 09, 2016, 06:28:17 PM
I see the emojis
Only people using certain phones can see them. On here it is a grey box that says gif in it. Annoying as heck.
Oh, no problem
Quote from: Jhenderson on February 09, 2016, 08:07:41 PM
I'm going to say Treeslayer hasn't been in bisiness for 30 or more years. When figuring for inflation log prices on average are lower now than in the last 25+ years. As for percentage purchases, it's not usually done around here. Walk the job, mark the wood, make an offer. Sometimes 1/2 up front, 1/2 when the job is 1/2 done. Sometimes it's all up front, but it's lump sum.
iv been doing this since 1988. my father since the 50s. so no, we don't know nuthin about it...........
You guys really have to remember that this profession can be totally different in different parts of the country. Sometimes stuff I see on here I think is crazy, If it was my neighborhood logger talking. I know enough not to judge for the most part when someone is working a world away.
Quote from: Jeff on February 09, 2016, 10:22:45 PM
You guys really have to remember that this profession can be totally different in different parts of the country. Sometimes stuff I see on here I think is crazy, If it was my neighborhood logger talking. I know enough not to judge for the most part when someone is working a world away.
your right Jeff. i for one pay particular attention to where guys are when they post about log value......i have noticed some trends.
"veneer" logs seem to bring the most in new england and get cheaper to non existent the farther south you go. one thing is sure, pine is down every where up and down the east coast. and i suspect some places do not have a real export market.....maybe to far from a port.
however.......i am getting at least twice what i was 25 years ago except for pine. veneer.....i don't like that word, i'll say grade logs, are all over but i do have alot more grades now and alot of those would have been saw years ago. so yes, all and all things look good price wise.......at least to me. plus i'm not paying 5 dollars a gallon for fuel like not so long ago.
also Jeff..........you already know this.........talking about prices being down is bad for all of us. kinda like the boy crying wolf.
It is also talking about prices as a group is potentially illegal. The illusion of collusion on an internet forum is not outside the realm of possibilities.
I don't get the percentage thing, if the logger needs 250 a thousand to get the logs to the mill, that's what he should get, whether the price is 350 or 750 per thousand. If the landowner aint broke and needs the money, those trees will be there anytime through out his lifetime, adding rings.
Now around here it is entirely different .The landowner says they want so many acres of land cut and i offer x amount per ton according to species and everyone gets paid weekly going by the truck weigh slips going across the scale .But again it is apples and oranges i very rarely see much for grade hardwood logs .
I agree Terry. It costs the same to harvest and truck firewood as it does veneer logs.
If the logger works on a fixed percentage, he's sure to be loosing money on low grade jobs, and ripping off the land owner that has quality logs. You can be sure the truck operator isn't going to drop his rates because the wood is less valuable, all his costs are fixed. At some point he's jut going to stay home, instead of rolling the truck and loosing money doing it.
For example pine logs locally might sell for $50 to $250 a ton at the mill. Say the logger needs $20 / ton to make a profit, and so does the trucking company. That makes the low grade logs worth $10/ton to the land owner, while the high grade logs have a stumpage value of $210. One land owner gets 20% for his crappy trees, while the guy that's managed his trees properly is receiving more like 80%. You aren't going to give Mr Crappy Logs 50%, leaving the logger and trucker to split the other $25...
And yes it also can leave the situation where the standing trees have no actual value. That happens too, and sometimes "Take them away for firewood" is the best deal a land owner can get, if they simply want the trees gone.
Now it may be perfectly OK to pitch a deal to the land owner as a certain %, spread over the whole job. But that's got to depend on the quality and market value of the trees, AND how much the trucking is going to cost. Could be $10 / ton if they go just down the road, or $30 a ton if they have to haul them further.
But the logger and trucker have fixed operating costs. If the market is down a certain amount, that doesn't change their operating expenses, and their need to still operate at a profit.
I log on my own land as a hobby only. I cut as much as i can mostly for firewood and some timbers but many times i need to hire a few cable skidders to help me out if im cutting a bigger block of 100 acres or more. I have always paid by the ton for felling skidding to the landing and bucking to length. The mills either haul the logs and pulp by themselves or hire someone to haul it for them. So they are buying my logs on the landing. Im the last six yrs or so i have paid between 7 and 11 dollars a ton depending on the skid length terrain etc - he sets the price. It is all uniform shelterwood and slection cuts so no clear cuts at all. I have had as many as five hired skidders working at one time. The jobber seems happy and always asks if i have more areas to cut in the future. I feel good that the jobber is making what he feels is fair and i gain on higher valued trees, especially poles.
I only ever did 2 percentage pay jobs in my life, the others were pd up front in cash. Those jobs were more or less salvage, it was all standing but inferior trees. Woodpecker holes, lightning strikes, snapped from wind, scuffed from the cut 25 yrs ago, you name it.
I no way would have pd cash or if I did, it would be so low I would have never got the job. I needed work, the ground was level, it was dry so I took it on a 50/50. I knew the landowner as teens, we always got along. It worked out OK, I didnt make much more than I would have just cutting and skidding for a Co, but I worked alone and had no payroll.
We sold the logs on the landing, no trucking involved, which would have been the deal breaker for me if we had to.
There is a great deal of trust that goes into a percentage deal, and heres what happens around here; Low grade logs get left in the woods, since splitting very little money equates into even less little money, but the landowner wants them out, he got nothing in them. And like someone else said, stone, bridges, maintenance, etc, gets piled on the logger. What do you do when the LO decides he doesnt want anymore cut when the price plummets? I prefer to pay cash, I will have a little more control, but will still do what was agreed on in the beginning.
Your completely wrong inab it cost double to harvest and roadside firewood than it does grade logs. There's no comparison. It's not apples for apples... I think you don't understand how logging is done in Appalachia Do you want to do 100 trees cut topped and skidded or 15 trees that's the difference . Low grade and firewood isn't even worth bringing out by the thousand or ton. Know one cuts and skids just firewood it's brought out with the grade trees or its left on the ground in the woods. There is just no explaining how it's done here I guess.. Percentage is king from NY to Kentucky it works everyone is happy the woods are continually harvested and we still have big high value hardwoods not toothpicks.
It can't be explained properly I guess. there is a difference with percentage the nicest timber makes the most money for everyone involved including the logger landowner and mill. There is incentives to get that job as well make sure the next time you cut it it's just as valuable. There is no incentive cutting by the thousand or ton. There is no incentive to make sure the logs are bucked for value not footage. That's what happens when guys log by the thousand or tonage they max out footage on the truck. Production production. even with low grade and firewood there is still incentive. The nicer straight firewood brings more money. Same with low grade logs. Incentive for all involved. That's why you go to work the chance to make a little more money than yesterday. If we wanted to get the same check day in and day out we'll work for someone else as a employee and not have the headache.
I cut mostly on % here in southeast Ohio. We are starting to see some of the larger mills from up north buying timber stands and using contract loggers. Most of that is going out tree length.
Quote from: ga jones on February 10, 2016, 09:41:45 AM
It can't be explained properly I guess. there is a difference with percentage the nicest timber makes the most money for everyone involved including the logger landowner and mill. There is incentives to get that job as well make sure the next time you cut it it's just as valuable. There is no incentive cutting by the thousand or ton. There is no incentive to make sure the logs are bucked for value not footage. That's what happens when guys log by the thousand or tonage they max out footage on the truck. Production production. even with low grade and firewood there is still incentive. The nicer straight firewood brings more money. Same with low grade logs. Incentive for all involved. That's why you go to work the
chance to make a little more money than yesterday. If we wanted to get the same check day in and day out we'll work for someone else as a employee and not have the headache.
Well said Sir
Another thing in this area is the size of the lots are generally under 50 acres and as small as 1. Landowners cut firewood and its left behind on many lots. i said it before there are many variables and one system doesn't work for everything.
We bring the whole tree after it is limbed in the woods. The logs go in one pile and the pulp/firewood in another. Anything under 10" (hardwood) is either pulp or firewood. $75/cord on the landing equates to around $150/mbf for the firewood and the LO gets $10/cord so in the end the pulp/firewood pays the expenses and the logs make the money for both the logger and the LO.
We did a TSI cut where in reality we should have charged the LO for the work but wound up OK because of the pulp/firewood, the logs that were marked didn't bring enough to justify doing the job. In the end the forester was happy, the LO was happy and we got the rest of 400 acres on a percentage for logs and a fixed price of $5/cord for softwood and $10/cord for hemlock and hardwood pulp.
Seems as though percentage is a recipe for high grading, not by guys on here, but others. If a logger is paid a set rate to get the wood out, it all comes out, if percentage, maybe only the high dollar wood comes out, not doing the forest or the landowner any good.
I cant see where firewood/pulp pays enough either way, through percentage or up front money. UNLESS you are mechanized and set up for firewood. Cable skidding/hand cutting it always slowed me down big time.
Sure, its on the end of the tree, and the woods look a bit better, but in my eyes thats where the work really comes in.
I say let the landowners cut/have it out of the tops after the job is over. I was told by many when doing my last percentage job that I should get to keep the firewood for free, I left the landowner have whatever was left on the landing for his own use.
Around my neck of the woods, which is Ontario, 50/50 between the logger and LO is typical for graded logs destined for the sawmill. Firewood is not work pulling out, unless the deal is about 80/20 (logger/LO).
And of the 50% the logger gets, he forks over about 30% to the trucker. So in the end the logger is making about 20% of what the mill will pay. As Donald Trump would say, HUUUUUUGE money! ::)
There's guys cutting aspen and hardwood pulp here day in and day out non stop. Sure they have a few log piles, but there is way more pulp. The only logs though are spruce and fir, not hardwood, they don't bother with hardwood logs for such low volumes. Also we have some firewood guys here that sell maple, yellow birch and beech firewood year around and process it with machine or wood splitter. A couple of the fellows I know quite well, one a processor, one a wood splitter operation. Firewood is around CDN$270 (US$190) a cord delivered around here and it goes up from there.
Locally, TL aspen is US$90-$120 a cord, hardwood about the same depending if you sell to Maine or in NB. Always more money in Maine, especially when $CDN falls.
we continually produce the nicest Hardwood in the world from southern NY to the mason Dixon line.plantations aren't ecology sound there is no diversity. Harvesting every 30-60 years produces little trees with low value. And clear cuts and manual replanting changes the ecological environment dramatically for ever.the markets drive every person involved with wood including the forester. The landowner has the last say in what they want to accomplish and should have the right to do whatever they see fit to do. Not the government..High grading is a term used very loosely here and mechanization drives the harvesting of small diameter low value trees.IMO
prices 21 years ago
Red Oak 390
chestnut oak 125
white oak 275
hard maple 240
soft maple 110
ash 340
popular 125
cherry 550
How does this compare today? I know you guys talk about different prices for different regions and that makes a huge difference. How can timber prices vary so wildly in the same state? On wvu website it has cherry ranging from a low of 250 to a high of 711 in different regions. That's such a huge price gap. I understand different prices in different areas but why that much in the same state?
Quote from: woodman1876 on February 10, 2016, 05:32:02 PM
prices 21 years ago
Red Oak 390
chestnut oak 125
white oak 275
hard maple 240
soft maple 110
ash 340
popular 125
cherry 550
How does this compare today? I know you guys talk about different prices for different regions and that makes a huge difference. How can timber prices vary so wildly in the same state? On wvu website it has cherry ranging from a low of 250 to a high of 711 in different regions. That's such a huge price gap. I understand different prices in different areas but why that much in the same state?
i'm not going to post prices as per Jeff's suggestion. how ever i will say that your list varies wildly from prices here back then. it does have to do with local markets even in the same state. also with quality which will vary greatly with different soil types. i know this because soil types vary alot here and i have learned what soil grows what well. for example most of our cherry is so full of shake it doesn't even make good saw logs. how ever poplar on the same tract could be stellar. another example is white oak, your list suggests red oak is always better there. its the opposite here with white oak some times worth double what red is. as i said earlier, throw out those internet price lists and talk to local loggers.
What grades are you posting there are different grades. pallet,tie,#1,2,3 select,prime,prime plus, rotary, veneer 1-3.you have to compare apples to apples.
by the way i sold cherry for much more than your high from the new list........so you see what i mean, forget the list. local experienced loggers will know where to get the best price.
Quote from: ga jones on February 10, 2016, 05:13:10 PM
we continually produce the nicest Hardwood in the world from southern NY to the mason Dixon line.plantations aren't ecology sound there is no diversity. Harvesting every 30-60 years produces little trees with low value. And clear cuts and manual replanting changes the ecological environment dramatically for ever.the markets drive every person involved with wood including the forester. The landowner has the last say in what they want to accomplish and should have the right to do whatever they see fit to do. Not the government..High grading is a term used very loosely here and mechanization drives the harvesting of small diameter low value trees.IMO
i agree with ya there on the plantations. however there is good hardwood south of the mason dixon.
Yes it was a generalization. There is great hardwood all through Appalachia
I've often thought that a true measure for a fair price of wood is whether or not a small time logger could purchase a brand new skidder (cable) and make a go of it himself. Where I cut, he would go out of business within the first month with the price of wood and equipment over the last 25 years. I don't know of anyone who has purchased a brand new cable skidder to go logging on their own. Today, an individual logger can only run old equipment to make a go of it, and barely too, and that says a lot. :(
Globalization, a fine thing until you have to look for another job. ;)
To answer Woodmans question , we cut private lots split the logs at 50% and 50% on the truck . The tops were left behind for the landowner for firewood and were not taken for pulp . We only cut the high grade and tried not to rub the bark off the butt log of the standing timber .
Quote from: ga jones on February 10, 2016, 05:13:10 PM
we continually produce the nicest Hardwood in the world from southern NY to the mason Dixon line.plantations aren't ecology sound there is no diversity. Harvesting every 30-60 years produces little trees with low value. And clear cuts and manual replanting changes the ecological environment dramatically for ever.the markets drive every person involved with wood including the forester. The landowner has the last say in what they want to accomplish and should have the right to do whatever they see fit to do. Not the government..High grading is a term used very loosely here and mechanization drives the harvesting of small diameter low value trees.IMO
You are so right !
Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 09, 2016, 10:51:47 AM
Ok, I got it now. You got your woodlot walked by a couple local loggers and didn't like what you heard, so you figured you would ask on here hoping for the answer you really wanted. Fair enough.
"Half" isn't quite right, yes oak is coming back but not what it was. Cherry is ok. HM and SM are paying but what's great $$$ ???
A decent reputable logger / forester can make or break your woodlot. Around here a cut every 10-15yrs is common, working around and releasing the good stuff that's not quite ready. Taking the highest bid blindly has worked out great for alot of landowners, if you read the past threads you can see that. :D
So much goes into it, from proper harvesting techniques, bucking for grade and knowing what logs to sell to which mill. Utilization is key, and it varies greatly by region. I willing to bet 99% of us on here have more wood / work than we can handle, didn't get there by paying more than the stuff was worth. I average 2-3 woodlots a month I walk, some I buy and some I walk away from.
Good, accurate post by a fair man who seems to know what its like in most areas!
lets talk about something less controversal. whos goin to be the next president??? ;D :D :)
Quote from: Jeff on February 09, 2016, 10:22:45 PM
You guys really have to remember that this profession can be totally different in different parts of the country. Sometimes stuff I see on here I think is crazy, If it was my neighborhood logger talking. I know enough not to judge for the most part when someone is working a world away.
This is the truest basic statement to remember for all of us!!
Quote from: Lumberjohn on February 10, 2016, 02:14:05 PM
I cant see where firewood/pulp pays enough either way, through percentage or up front money. UNLESS you are mechanized and set up for firewood. Cable skidding/hand cutting it always slowed me down big time.
Sure, its on the end of the tree, and the woods look a bit better, but in my eyes thats where the work really comes in.
I say let the landowners cut/have it out of the tops after the job is over. I was told by many when doing my last percentage job that I should get to keep the firewood for free, I left the landowner have whatever was left on the landing for his own use.
This is usually the way it is in my area{ SW Ohio}, the firewood tops stay in the woods--less ground and residual damage, and landowner retains some control and money/use possibilities. You are NOT going to make much on firewood handling if you are a logger full-time.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on February 10, 2016, 05:51:30 PM
by the way i sold cherry for much more than your high from the new list........so you see what i mean, forget the list. local experienced loggers will know where to get the best price.
[/quote} Amen!!
Most plantations up this way are fill plantations. I thin a lot of ground, and I might work on one full plantation a year. Most are fills. That means there is all the natural regen available on the site and just the dead zones are planted (yards, trails). I'd rather have a spruce than a raspberry cane or willow brush. ;)
We produce some nice hardwood if we manage for it, but it will never be as tall as in the southern range of hardwood growth and it certainly doesn't grow 4" in 10 years up here. I've seen a few 40" + hard maple and birch up here, but by then it's too old and gone in the middle. Most of it drops in grade beyond 20", you just have to look at it piled roadside on public forest land and look at all the "culvert" sticks. But that varies by site/soil. Some of our hardwood is on glacial sandy ground and the better stuff is on sites with soil like in the garden. Up here in the potato belt, the best farm ground is on old sugar maple forest that was cleared, where the soil has calcareous bedrock, a thin litter layer and dark upper soil horizons will lots of humous for the top 15"-30". Generally, it takes 60 years to get an 8" hard maple here in forest conditions and with proper thinning. Left thick, no. And maple and yellow birch grows a lot thicker than oak and cherry and needs thinning. Sixty years is a long time, and barely mature for hard maple. When land changes hands or someone needs money, the management plan changes.
We've had quite a few southern mills after our hardwood: Columbia Forest Products, Miller Veneers.. etc. We've had mills that would take even 4' veneer bolts. Trouble is it's getting scarce because it's not being managed for those markets. In recent years it's been forest products marketing boards trying to encourage better use for better quality. And it has not been much for volumes, in reality it has cost board offices more money than benefits running around gathering little puckles of wood that mostly get sorted out of the low grade as an afterthought. The trees (species wise) are there, but not the same vision as you guys down south. Our woodlot organizations (boards) have not convinced many people to manage long term for hardwood logs. Myself, I'm quite a bit different than most, I am on my ground with my work boots most every week when I can. I manage for the greatest diversity possible. I'm actually growing more wood per acre than has grown there in 2 generations. My ground is not dominated by aspen, it's got a fairly even split of softwood and hardwood, and a lot of the softwood was planted. A lot wasn't to. My land had been clearcut before I inherited it, my vision is different than that, I won't be clear cutting. That's not to say it will never be clearcut because once I am done, it most probably will be when you look at the local attitudes about managing the woods. ;)
treeslayer. Sense you seem to consider yourself quite knowledgeable on the subject go back to your tally slips( or daddy's) from the early to mid 80s. Comparing apples to apples, I was paid $450 mbf in the landing for prime red oak. That's a clear log with a 14 inch tip that wouldn't make veneer. Add for inflation using Bureau of Labor statistics and it comes to an adjusted price of $1294.39 .Is that what you're getting for that log? I didn't think so. Get your facts in order before you type. You'll appear much brighter.
Quote from: Jhenderson on February 11, 2016, 08:59:01 AM
treeslayer. Sense you seem to consider yourself quite knowledgeable on the subject go back to your tally slips( or daddy's) from the early to mid 80s. Comparing apples to apples, I was paid $450 mbf in the landing for prime red oak. That's a clear log with a 14 inch tip that wouldn't make veneer. Add for inflation using Bureau of Labor statistics and it comes to an adjusted price of $1294.39 .Is that what you're getting for that log? I didn't think so. Get your facts in order before you type. You'll appear much brighter.
if your so disgusted with log prices the best thing for you to do is quit. then maybe you can find some thing else to cry about and then you will seem much brighter. by the way, you should have left that little tree to grow.
You guys have picked a perfect time to get under my skin. We are burying my best friend tomorrow. We used to talk about the forum, and how it brought people together. He was always so proud of what I had somehow pulled together here, and when I would meet people that he knew, as an introduction of me to them, he would always bring up the Forestry Forum and insist I tell that person about it.
The Forum is about bringing people together, and I am all about removing them from that equation if it is detrimental to the bringing together part. So, you have 3 options.
1. KNOCK IT OFF and let us pretend this never happened.
2. Go away on your own accord until you can be civil.
3. Have me make you go away, and I'll let you come back as soon as I get Pete back.
Capeesh? Understand?
I just got the results from an inventory of my land. This land was last inventoried 6/16/2005 the new inventory is dated 2/4/2016. Both inventories were conducted by the same forest management company and they cover the same woodlot same access and similar total volumes/species.
This should be an extremely good representation of relative prices for stumpage value in Northeast Vermont.
I am a landowner with over 300 acres in managed forest and I happen to do all of my own harvesting with over 16 years of experience. Right now this is my primary source of income so I don't have any big biases as far as land owner or logger and I am not just a part time hobbyist. I take both the logging side and the landowner long term side very seriously.
Sugar maple #1 (2005)= $326(2016)=$250
Sugar Maple #2 (2005)= $125(2016)=$125
Spruce fir sawlogs (2005)= $121(2016)=$150
Yellow Birch #1 (2005)= $280(2016)=$210
Yellow Birch #2 (2005)= $140(2016)=$130
Cedar sawlogs (2005)= $116(2016)=$116
Pulp
hardwood (2005)=$10cd (2016)=$15cd
Spruce fir pulp (2005)=$18cd (2016)=$5
So these numbers are for landowner stumpage value and take into account what a logger may pay not what the logger is getting at the mill.
Jeff, sorry to hear about your loss of a friend.
He is also my brother-in-law. He is my brother. He has been in my life since I was 15 years old.
My condolences also.
Quote from: grassfed on February 11, 2016, 11:20:30 AM
I just got the results from an inventory of my land. This land was last inventoried 6/16/2005 the new inventory is dated 2/4/2016. Both inventories were conducted by the same forest management company and they cover the same woodlot same access and similar total volumes/species.
This should be an extremely good representation of relative prices for stumpage value in Northeast Vermont.
I am a landowner with over 300 acres in managed forest and I happen to do all of my own harvesting with over 16 years of experience. Right now this is my primary source of income so I don't have any big biases as far as land owner or logger and I am not just a part time hobbyist. I take both the logging side and the landowner long term side very seriously.
Sugar maple #1 (2005)= $326(2016)=$250
Sugar Maple #2 (2005)= $125(2016)=$125
Spruce fir sawlogs (2005)= $121(2016)=$150
Yellow Birch #1 (2005)= $280(2016)=$210
Yellow Birch #2 (2005)= $140(2016)=$130
Cedar sawlogs (2005)= $116(2016)=$116
Pulp
hardwood (2005)=$10cd (2016)=$15cd
Spruce fir pulp (2005)=$18cd (2016)=$5
So these numbers are for landowner stumpage value and take into account what a logger may pay not what the logger is getting at the mill.
wow 250 for #1HM in 2016 :o we are at 450 and going to get a raise for next week 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) just goes to show how much difference there is from state to state or even county to county
Yes, your right coxy hm grd#1 here is 600. Red oak prime is like 800 not real far off the inflation number.IMO. Not terrible Considering China's weak economy and their the biggest buyers of our red oak.it was like 950 a year ago Fluctuations a bit..IMO....
Sorry for your loss Jeff. They are not dead who live in the hearts they leave behind. Tuscarora
Quote from: Jeff on February 11, 2016, 11:30:48 AM
He is also my brother-in-law. He is my brother. He has been in my life since I was 15 years old.
Thoughts and condolences,
sorry for your loss Jeff.
i guess when you cant attack the facts you attack the messenger. I don't think an honest discussion about prices hurts the profession in the least. If anything it educates the casual observer as to real market conditions. It's no different than reading the market reports. When I go talk to previous customers and they start talking stumpage prices from 20-30 years ago i show them our market reports. Facts are what they are. Wood is a commodity. No different than wheat or corn. Don't harvest and it won't keep.
jhenderson, i will agree with that last part. if the timber is ready it needs cut. i can't tell ya how much big pine i seen die since that price dropped.
Treeslayer How much hardwoods is down where you are? Some of those eastern shore counties seem to have huge amounts pine.
Quote from: woodman1876 on February 11, 2016, 04:42:03 PM
Treeslayer How much hardwoods is down where you are? Some of those eastern shore counties seem to have huge amounts pine.
the lower shore is mostly pine and alot of replants. mid to upper shore has some *DanG nice poplar and oak. big difference in the ground, lower shore is alot of clay bottom, mid shore is sandy and upper is rolling clay hills.
here is some thing else to think about my guy may call it a #1 but ga jones guy may call it a #2 or a prime or the other way around there is a lot of difference in log buyers to my guy will call a 10in 4clear side small hart hm a #1
Well I get $875 (Bassed on Jan 18th 2016 price sheet) for 14+ 3cf less than 1/3rd heart sugar maple sawlogs and $675 12"+ delivered to the log yard 20 miles from here. The other prices are stumpage that is net after logger and trucking.
Of course right now I would never hire somebody to cut my maple; I do it myself and deliver it myself. It is gravy money, much easier than cutting pulp. I am saving the the 250,000 Bf of sugar maple since it is still growing well and ranges from 10-18 inches I only grab the occasional tree that starts to show early signs of decline.
I have to do a full timber management plan and inventory update every 10 years for Vermont Current use tax qualification.
I think that part of the price decline for stumpage comes from the fact that there are fewer loggers around now compared to 10 years ago and also fewer truckers so they charge more they also have higher costs from more harvesting regulations.
My harvesting plan is also pretty restrictive because I am focused on transitioning this land into a showplace for uneven age management and so that probably is reflected by lower stumpage prices but that was the same 10 years ago so the relative prices should not be affected by that.
Remember that 2005 was into the housing boom and also the China growth cycle so markets were really good.
I was going to hire a crew to harvest in the winter of 2005 but they could not start until March and the spruce fir ground that they were going to work would be too close to thaw so I passed on the bid.
I was all ramped up and ready to cut the same area during the winter of 2007-8 I had my skidder by then and I also hired a good man to work with me. We built and froze in all of the trails and landings and even made a nice polled log ford on a 20 foot stream crossing. We cut for a week and had a good full landing but then the markets crashed and we could not move any wood; everything shut down completely.
I would have done better financially if I got the wood cut in 2005 because by the time I really started moving that wood in 2010 I had lost quite a few trees to blowdown and red rot.
Since then I just do everything myself and work different areas and species depending on the weather, season and markets.
grassfed thanks for the info it sounds like your on top of things I would love to look at your woods in 10 years do you know how much some of your trees are growing per year stay safe
Thanks I hope I am still here in ten years! As far as growth I don't have any scientific data but most are growing really well probably 1/8 th inch + rings. I can always tell the Sugar maples that are doing well because the bark is a bit pink where it stretches on good years. I definitely have noticed the over all health and vigor is exelent and much better than 1999 when I first moved here. I kind of wondered if it had anything to do with a decrease in acid rain. Or maybe because I have cut many of the losers.
Quote from: Jhenderson on February 11, 2016, 04:02:16 PM
i guess when you cant attack the facts you attack the messenger. I don't think an honest discussion about prices hurts the profession in the least. If anything it educates the casual observer as to real market conditions. It's no different than reading the market reports. When I go talk to previous customers and they start talking stumpage prices from 20-30 years ago i show them our market reports. Facts are what they are. Wood is a commodity. No different than wheat or corn. Don't harvest and it won't keep.
I couldn't agree more about being open with pricing or just about anything in the public interest. We need to be informed as much as possible. That is the way democracy works in practice. An uninformed, inactive, purposeless citizen is incompatible with democracy, and that applies to the forest industry as well. In fact, I do not trust those who wish us to be less informed and inactive, for some people have agendas to control and secrecy is part of the plan.
Where I'm from mill prices and specs for products sold are readily available for anyone selling wood in round wood form. Anyone can contact their local woodlot association/forest products marketing board. After that it's between the logger and woodlot owner to work out the financial arrangement. The trucker is responsible for scale slips and a wood tracking record of where from and where to kept in his possession. The local marketing board pays the trucker when the scale is presented and at the rate he agreed to haul the wood.
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
That's what happens when you let the government control your land to save a little taxes. Up here timber land is not taxed much at all. I pay around $30 a year on 70 acres. And it's all trees that are all thinned. I controll all the management, when and where.
Quote from: schmalts on April 04, 2016, 10:54:57 PM
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
Not really sure where you think they are going to go. They aren't bad. Everybody complains about having to cut their woods when in the program, but they typically don't want out of the program either. The MFL program helps keep loggers busy as well. The trees that are selected to cut now should be ripe and may not be when prices get to wherever you think they should be.
Quote from: RHP Logging on April 05, 2016, 07:30:12 AM
Quote from: schmalts on April 04, 2016, 10:54:57 PM
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
Not really sure where you think they are going to go. They aren't bad. Everybody complains about having to cut their woods when in the program, but they typically don't want out of the program either. The MFL program helps keep loggers busy as well. The trees that are selected to cut now should be ripe and may not be when prices get to wherever you think they should be.
Well said. :D
Quote from: schmalts on April 04, 2016, 10:54:57 PM
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
Is your plan that rigid? I'm pretty sure mine says something like "thinning will be done if prices are acceptable." Even if it didn't, I could change it. Nobody has a copy of it but me.
I've been in the NRCS's EQIP and there's flexibility to the implementation of the plan.
Quote from: enigmaT120 on April 05, 2016, 02:44:54 PM
Quote from: schmalts on April 04, 2016, 10:54:57 PM
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
Is your plan that rigid? I'm pretty sure mine says something like "thinning will be done if prices are acceptable." Even if it didn't, I could change it. Nobody has a copy of it but me.
Yes and no. As long as you have a contract or are actively cutting yourself due dates can slide. The reality is in Wisconsin most loggers I got bids from want 3 year or longer contracts and have little intention to show up the first couple years. The DNR knows that's the case and they are ok as long as there is a contract. The reason I want to start doing some more on my own is I can take out what I want, when prices are currently good on some species and wait a little bit on others. I work with a forester to get advice and mark trees. Well worth it.
I do my own cutting and on my own land in VT and I don't have any problems with being forced to cut when prices are low.
The big thing with property tax relief forest land is that you have to cut in a way that follows recognized silvicultural practices; that means you have a strategy for forest regeneration; you can't just go in and high grade and if you are doing a clearcut it needs to fit with the long term plan for the land.
I do a lot of different things in different parts of my land and I support myself by selling the logs that I cut. When prices dropped on HW pulp I switched to SW sawlogs. If I can't make money I don't cut and try to find other work.
They really are not going to push you to cut here Vt unless you are just sitting on land that needs to be cut and not even considering logging.
QuoteI pay around $30 a year on 70 acres.
SwampDonkey, around here if you are in a plan you would pay about $150 ($196 cad) on 70 acres and without a plan you would pay about $1,800 ($2,358 cad) Unless you are rich in VT, you cannot afford to own land that does not have a forestry plan
Quote from: schmalts on April 07, 2016, 11:21:36 AM
Quote from: enigmaT120 on April 05, 2016, 02:44:54 PM
Quote from: schmalts on April 04, 2016, 10:54:57 PM
what sucks is knowing prices are low but being in a forest management plan that says you have to cut now at the low price. In Wisconsin Oak prices are coming back, but have a way to go.
Is your plan that rigid? I'm pretty sure mine says something like "thinning will be done if prices are acceptable." Even if it didn't, I could change it. Nobody has a copy of it but me.
Yes and no. As long as you have a contract or are actively cutting yourself due dates can slide. The reality is in Wisconsin most loggers I got bids from want 3 year or longer contracts and have little intention to show up the first couple years. The DNR knows that's the case and they are ok as long as there is a contract. The reason I want to start doing some more on my own is I can take out what I want, when prices are currently good on some species and wait a little bit on others. I work with a forester to get advice and mark trees. Well worth it.
We take out several years on a contract to account for weather/breakdowns etc. We also like to gather up several jobs in an area to keep moving costs down. There are other factors such as land type (swamps, landings) that could cause a delay in harvests. I wouldn't say little intention. I've cut plenty of jobs with the paint still wet. It boils down to a lot of scenarios, weather usually being the biggest problem. Bad winter, wet summer,etc.
Quote from: grassfed on April 07, 2016, 12:26:05 PM
QuoteI pay around $30 a year on 70 acres.
SwampDonkey, around here if you are in a plan you would pay about $150 ($196 cad) on 70 acres and without a plan you would pay about $1,800 ($2,358 cad) Unless you are rich in VT, you cannot afford to own land that does not have a forestry plan
I purchased this property I own while it was already enrolled. 75 acres would be over 2k a year in my area. In the program I pay roughly 150 bucks. Over a 25 year contract that adds up. Tax, tax, tax...
Taxes that high could pretty much wipe out any gains unless your woods is really well managed. If it is really well managed then I'm guessing you could pretty easily qualify for government programs.
The problem I see is when these GO's start telling the landowner exactly how to manage their land. I've had these fights w the feds over CRP management. Centralized command and control with one size fits all management plans are a bad idea. It takes a big effort to not get run over by the person who writes up your plan..... :-\ :-X :snowball:
In my area the taxes on bush land is WAY higher than what you guys are paying and I mean multi times higher than that , Land tax here is crazy . Standing timber prices on anything that has grade logs in it is pretty high as well . I was worried the log price was going to drop as I got to much timber bought but so far its the same or higher . The bush I'm cutting right now is about as low as I go as far as what the timber looks and what grade it cuts out at . Not a big job and its 164,000 feet . I paid $450/1000 for any timber logs so pallet grade and up, $25/per cord for standing firewood . If its good hardwood right now its nothing to pay a buck a foot for standing timber . It crazy here and you better know your timber and what your looking at or you will go broke pretty fast
I bet industrial freehold (mill ground) isn't taxed as high though. Imagine paying that rate on 4 Million acres? Taxing (or threat of) the little guy at high rates helps with timber supply I suspect. ;)
the mills here donot own much land , land here is costly . By my house for a average 100 acres which is normally 70 acres of workable field your looking at a average of $20,000 a acre so that's $2,000,000. Some blocks are going for $28,000 a acre if good land . If you go either east 20 miles or west 20 miles land is worth less as its not so sandy , its got more clay in it
one thing thou is our ash is pretty much junk now with the EAB so buying ash standing timber you really got to look it over real close , Once the wood starts to change colour the mills will not pay much for it
Land prices and tax is not the same although the tax assessor bases the rates on what land sells for. Who would bother farming at those land prices? If it's like down here the government has farm land tax relief. And if we have it here, I'm sure they do elsewhere. Your talking about being near high population density which we don't have around here. A $180,000 house built here is $480,000 over your way. We can see that is how the banks sell insurance. We can get house insurance for a third the price and the valuation about 1/3 on the policy because it can be rebuilt a heck of a lot cheaper. Here, farmers can buy land cheaper than clear it these days. And it's good farm ground to. There can be some farm areas here with ledge all through it, I don't call that prime farm. Although some farmers think so. :D But the good farms have a bit of a rise and no slag holes for water to pool. Dark soil with lots of gravel mixed in and humous (from tillage and broadcasting) and not the heavy red clay soil like some areas. Over two feet to a compact layer and can be several feet to bedrock (calcareous shales). It's not Mississippi soil, but grows nice russet taters as big as your feet. ;D
just have to ask is your acres the same as our acres I think its 211x211 here
Same acres, 0.4 ha. 64 m x 64 m ;D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 07, 2016, 06:53:35 PM
I bet industrial freehold (mill ground) isn't taxed as high though. Imagine paying that rate on 4 Million acres? Taxing (or threat of) the little guy at high rates helps with timber supply I suspect. ;)
In Oregon the industrial land owners pay the normal property tax on the land, all the time. But they are logging all the time so they are (hopefully) generating enough income so it's not a problem. They definitely pay more than I do. No taxes on standing timber, that would just be stupid. There is an upper acreage limit for people to enroll in the tax-deferral program that my property is in. I pay about 45 bucks per year (depending on fire season surcharges) on 28 acres. But when I sell timber I pay a severance tax, if I sell enough to trigger it. I can't remember right now how much that is. Anyway, while my county did require a management plan for my place so I could be eligible for the deferral, all they have is something I wrote out by hand on a sheet of paper. I don't even remember what I said. It was several years later that I took a plan-writing class through OSU Extension and wrote the actual plan that I have. Since my local stewardship forester was my mentor for that class, I guess he probably has a copy too.
No taxes on standing timber, it would be difficult to assess since the forest is dynamic and changing. It's the land that is taxed for sure. But your timber barons get big breaks.
https://sites.google.com/site/ecosytemadvocates/oregon-s-big-timber-elite-dodge-100-of-millions-in-taxes-to-oregon
That web site is pretty anti-timber. But I did remember right -- they used to try to tax standing timber:
"DeFazio chastised Lane County Commissioner Pete Sorenson and Lincoln County Commissioner Bill Hall for proposing to raise property taxes, but he failed to mention that in 1977, Gov. Bob Straub and the Oregon Legislature bequeathed the timber industry an exemption to paying taxes on the value of their standing timber.
The industry hasn't paid taxes on private standing timber, valued at approximately $40 billion, since then. By 2003-05, that "standing timber tax exclusion" was valued at $511 million per biennium."
The articles there keep saying that the industrial (defined as over 5,000 acres in holdings) stopped having to pay the severance tax, but fail to mention that in return they pay more in annual property taxes.
I don't feel too sorry for our supposedly cash-strapped timber counties. They whine about the BLM not paying any property taxes but fail to notice that the counties provide zero services to the BLM property. Even the industrial land owners just pay taxes on the bare land. There aren't any improvements to pay taxes on.
Someone is always complaining when they don't get what they expect. ;D
I know this topic is old .... but curious ...... I've owned my lot for 25 years {70 acres/ 50 acres wooded}, and it's time to pull the trigger on select cutting (thinning). I have a mile drive way, that I would rather have a straight truck transport vs tractor trailers. I would also prefer to have the trees cut by hand, vs a tree cutter (less damage to other trees) Most logging companies want to clear cut. Hard to find one that will select cut for me with my two preferences. The trees to be targeted are Popular, White & Red Oak. Popular Diameter run from 27" to 14" with a grade of P1 & P2. White and Red Oaks are about the same, but the track is dominated by Popular. Flat & well drained soil, no hills, skid paths will not exceed 1/4 mile - 80% is close to the landings. Mills are 35 minutes to commute to - My quote is 1/3 spit - logger handles transport, gravel if and when needed. I do nothing - would this be fair pricing?
To be clear, you are proposing a 25-75% with logger getting 75%? I think southside may add more local insight but I think things are backed up you might be in for a wait if you get anyone.
I tried to give away 12 acres of mid sized poplar (about what you have) with lots of smaller cherry (only 5mbf of sawlogs in the cherry) and i had no takers. Had to go way down market to a part time logger that hand fells. Funny because I cut walnut for a sideline and I still had issues.
I don't know anyone other than firewood guys that do straight trucks anymore. I think that hand felling vs a feller bunch with a sawhead is not the damage factor it is skidding. Lots of discussion on this site re how important hardwood thinning is and how hard it is to do it and make money.
Hi Bay Beagle
Uncertain what your area practices are, IMHO I think you're getting too low a percentage,
Get a price sheet from the local mills and do a little more homework on local loggers and trucking.
Check here as well http://dof.virginia.gov/marketplace/index.htm
best
D
{To be clear, you are proposing a 25-75% with logger getting 75%?}
It would be a 33-1/3 percent share - example: load ticket $1,200.00 divided by 3 = $400
Well...if you are proposing 33% for you, in a TSI type project....I think you better have really amazing trees. Not to be a depressing soul but...I don't think you'll get anyone to bite. Here the small logging companies that would touch it will want to high grade it so you'll have to get someone to mark the timber for you as well. There is a lot of timber waiting to get cut in VA and they don't have to hand cut slowly they can clearcut quickly or work on larger tracts. Someone I know has a 4000 acre cut going on with a 2 man crew, he'll retire there and he's in mid 50s.
However, it is very much a local thing, maybe it's different there than in Northern VA. I'd keep trying for another month but then be prepared to adjust your expectations or just wait a year and see if the market has changed.
Another concern I have is that the market is getting flooded with poplar right now, small poplar logs are getting very hard to move here in Fauquier county.
Quote from: Bay Beagle on January 28, 2018, 05:44:21 PMI would also prefer to have the trees cut by hand, vs a tree cutter (less damage to other trees)
Don't pass judgement so quickly a good equipment operator can perform thinnings just as well as a hand cutter. A good operator can be better than a bad hand feller, so be open to either but check references and past jobs.
Correct on the hand felling and getting the wood out too. There was 2 small lots cut just off the road I live on,one chain saw and a skidder. Drive by them when I go to work. One looks good,took about 5 years for it to grow up and cover up the mess he did. :( :o The other lots has about 3 more years before that looks better. :o
Best way is to check on past jobs. I kinda have a hobby of checking logging jobs. I don't just go in 50 feet either.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on January 28, 2018, 08:17:33 PM
Quote from: Bay Beagle on January 28, 2018, 05:44:21 PMI would also prefer to have the trees cut by hand, vs a tree cutter (less damage to other trees)
Don't pass judgement so quickly a good equipment operator can perform thinnings just as well as a hand cutter. A good operator can be better than a bad hand feller, so be open to either but check references and past jobs.
I had some opposition to mechanical in the beginning, other local guys openly talked how the woods where going to be wrecked 😂 now I take landowners to see these half wrecked hand falled jobs that look like a nest from the road. the handwritting is on the wall here for most state and DEP jobs that it will be mechanical or you won't bid. in the bigger stuff a hand faller beats mechanical but on a thinning job it's the way to go, what takes weeks is done in days.
There is virtually no cutting on private land here, but unless you are a small one man show, workmens comp dictates all falling to be mechanical.
Sounds like Canada or here in the PNW now insurance has got it high enough they can play yo yo with guys again like the 70's.
I see a 50/50 split here in middle TN. The full time mechanized logging operations are semi trucks and mostly pulp. The summer farmers who are winter loggers are hand falling, tractor skidding and straight truck or gooseneck hauling. a lot of straight single and tandem axle bunk trucks here due to very narrow roads where most woodlots are.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 28, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
I see a 50/50 split here in middle TN. The full time mechanized logging operations are semi trucks and mostly pulp. The summer farmers who are winter loggers are hand falling, tractor skidding and straight truck or gooseneck hauling. a lot of straight single and tandem axle bunk trucks here due to very narrow roads where most woodlots are.
The guys down there have the right idea with log trucks, straight trucks with 4 bunks and a pup, I can't get a trailer in on 75% of my jobs.
Guys who log for the general public typically not even a pup, no room. We are a logging friendly region, you can move your knucleboom down the street with your grapple skidder on most roads. The landing is usually one load of 3-6" sandstone dumped on the edge of the tar. Knuckleboom is 10ft from the tar and the 4 post truck gets loaded with its steers in the street.
Theres 3 of those sites on my road. No turnarounds on most side roads, you gotta back the knuckleboom few miles down the road.
The big rig logging companies are the ones who cut on dedicated corporate timber stands with real roads and landings already cut in. These little guys are showing up to a soggy field at best or a place where you cant even scoot off the shoulder at worst. First tool on site is the dumptruck full of rock.
Quote from: Bay Beagle on January 28, 2018, 05:44:21 PM
I know this topic is old .... but curious ...... I've owned my lot for 25 years {70 acres/ 50 acres wooded}, and it's time to pull the trigger on select cutting (thinning). I have a mile drive way, that I would rather have a straight truck transport vs tractor trailers. I would also prefer to have the trees cut by hand, vs a tree cutter (less damage to other trees) Most logging companies want to clear cut. Hard to find one that will select cut for me with my two preferences. The trees to be targeted are Popular, White & Red Oak. Popular Diameter run from 27" to 14" with a grade of P1 & P2. White and Red Oaks are about the same, but the track is dominated by Popular. Flat & well drained soil, no hills, skid paths will not exceed 1/4 mile - 80% is close to the landings. Mills are 35 minutes to commute to - My quote is 1/3 spit - logger handles transport, gravel if and when needed. I do nothing - would this be fair pricing?
In King William, there are a lot of mills near you... in West Point, Tidewater, Ball to name a few... plus several in the Northern Neck. Lots of forestry consulting firms too. Have you checked with them? Recently, most tracts that I have seen cut in the Northern Neck have been under 50 acres and not great timber... I think it's worth checking with some of these professionals before selling yourself short or driving people away with a high offer.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 28, 2018, 11:57:53 PM
Guys who log for the general public typically not even a pup, no room. We are a logging friendly region, you can move your knucleboom down the street with your grapple skidder on most roads. The landing is usually one load of 3-6" sandstone dumped on the edge of the tar. Knuckleboom is 10ft from the tar and the 4 post truck gets loaded with its steers in the street.
Theres 3 of those sites on my road. No turnarounds on most side roads, you gotta back the knuckleboom few miles down the road.
The big rig logging companies are the ones who cut on dedicated corporate timber stands with real roads and landings already cut in. These little guys are showing up to a soggy field at best or a place where you cant even scoot off the shoulder at worst. First tool on site is the dumptruck full of rock.
Unfortunately NY is becoming less friendly about everything, sat on my loader the other day picking up wood and the forester was giving the logger a hard time because they had wood stacked within 10' of the edge of the dirt road, a seasonal road, yrs ago I could get away with the rare move down the road on a snowy day, tried that a week ago and it didn't fly.
A lot depends on state weight laws. Any lift axle here takes 3,000 pounds off of what your gross weight can be, then the weight of the lift axle comes off of your payload, so no strait trucks here. It takes too long to make a round to make a straight truck pay at all, Any logger that owns a way to load a truck, will not even use a truck that has a knuckle boom on it.
Most guys here won't touch a self loader anymore unless they're farmers or a super small outfits most of which bought shovels.
Why don't you guys east of South Dakota adopt a track setup for a shovel or loader they can shovel like a skidder and make faster work as well as load?
I'm not sure what the weighs are down south or out west, my haul distance is also pretty short compared to what you guys are used to. I'm legal for 79,930 + 3% on 4 axles, on 22.5 drives 👎, a 2 axle pup on 5 axles with the truck is 114 ? I know a 3 axle log trailer and a triaxle tractor is 118k. not the Michigan train specs but still pretty heavy. My GF works for DMV, one of these days I need her to print me out a sheet showing specs and axle spacing.
"small" shovels don't exist 😂 Most guys around here have a smaller loader they drag around with a skidder, up north you see more self propelled trailers. Guys working next door to me have a 830B Timberpro, that is a slick machine.
barge it doesn't matter what DMV laws are DOT makes there own up as they go or the other way also DOT will recognize AG plates on a log truck but98%of DMV will not give them to you for a log truck
Here we still have many small independant mills happy to buy from anyone, in a 25 mile radius id say i can hit 5 or 6 not counting the guys with their own woodmizer or whatever. A few big land companies have owned nearly all of the vacant land since the indians, and as the roads and utilities get closer, the tracts get parcelled and sold for home sites. So that company is most of the work that the little old school hand fallers and straight trucks work for, theyre never close to town or interstate, this is all kinda out on the frontiers where people havent ever really lived but a handful. No stores or gas stations for 10 miles. No law either. 80k + 10% leeway is the general rule on county roads. Ive never heard of a logger getting on the interstate loaded, thats crazy.
its a huge trap to get the freight haulers out there. Agree with coxy, DOT makes it up as they go. Show em the book and it only gets worse.
The big loggers run semi down the mountain to bowaterin east tennessee or rocktenn and brown foreman in northeast alabama. Youd never see a straight truck go from here to there. And ive not once seen a self loader. Been one for sale on LSN forever. Its all knucklebooms, prentice and barko. No hoods here. Hardly any linkbelt stuff. Cat and deere for the skidding.
About 98% of the log trucks up here are self loaders so there is no need to have a shovel for loading. Occasionally we would load a crib trailer with the forwarder but not usually. With a two man processor/forwarder there is no time to be loading trucks, and often times our equipment would be on the next job and trucks still loading themselves at the last job. I've been surprised many times at where a Michigan truck and pup can turn around and maneuver, they don't take much more room than a pickup and gooseneck trailer.
Are those pups just regular pintle hitch or do they ride on a convertor dolley?
Are the log haulers usually independant contractors or a driver of the same company that owns the harvester/forwarder?
Most of the trucks are independent of the logger. There are some companies that have a dozen or more trucks hauling for many different loggers.
The pups are a dolly setup but not a converter, they are built as a dolly. They have a locking pin on the turn table so the two pivoting axles at the front of the pup can be locked straight so you can back them up and jockey them around.
On crown land I see mainly trucks with no self loaders. On private land there are both self loaders and just trailers also with a loader truck. And yes the trucking is usually independent of cutting contractors like in Chevy's neck of the woods. Very few straight truck here unless it is a farmer who uses his truck the haul wood and on the same truck might put a fertilizer box to haul during the planting season and haul local hay and straw other times. That was our setup for years, all our own wood, fertilizer and hay. No hauls of wood further than 40 miles. If the wood had to go more than that we called a tractor trailer in. When we wasn't moving farm produce, we was cutting wood. And might be day after Christmas if we was inclined....err if father was. :D My school break vacations was all working ones. None of this laid back stuff during school breaks. :D :D My father sold the cows off in the 70's, he couldn't find a way to work 24 hrs. :D
This year I needed to haul some short wood, 20 and 24 footers, so I took my normal log bunk off and bolted two stationary bunks on and pulled a pup.
The first 3 loads the road was in good enough shape I could pull the pup in, but then it started raining and turned to snow, so it was not possible to pull an empty pup in anymore. I then built a trailer ride, which I should have to start with and loaded the trailer. The real reason I didn't was the customer did not have a way to load my pup to start with, so we also had to buy a loader and leave it at the customers before I could start loading it up when empty.
Pulling an empty pup is not a good program at any time though, if you need the brakes they just slide.
Any way, the point is you can turn around in the very same space with a pup or long log trailer either one that you can turn around a strait truck. Before I built the trailer ride, we would just unhook the pup in the woods and turn it around with the shovel.
On a straight truck here you can only gross 51,500, IF you are long enough to bridge it and the weight is perfectly divided. I can still only gross 91.500 with a 2 axle pup or trailer. Extra axles do count on the trailer, so we could in theory use 3 or 4 or even 5 axle trailers, but you can't drag that weight out of the woods with only 38,000 on the drives, so a 2 axle is all a guy can use.
my load from yesterday had 10,221 feet doyle scale on it , hardwood with most being 8 ft 6 in or 10 ft 6 in long logs
One trip? thats like 180k pounds.
That isnt too abnormal around here depending on the size of trees. We average around 8000 but my best was 11,300 of soft maple.
ya I get 10,000 plus feet a lot this winter , scale has been really good
Our hardwood (shade tolerant) log market here has pretty much been twindling because most of it gets clear cut, yet it was 60 % of our forest. Aspen pulp has never suffered too bad because we can send into Maine as well. You can't cut big log trees if all you do is clearcut every 30 years for just low grade markets. But, your never going to change attitudes around my area. My dad was not one to clear cut hardwood, one of very few. Always managed for logs, and cut the junk for firewood. Most old timers before him never clear cut it neither. Clear cutting hardwood was for land clearing, not forestry. The good potato ground up here in the potato belt was tolerant hardwood land, dominant to sugar maple.
We don't have to work too hard for the market research end, it is done by our marketing boards. This is or local one.
https://www.cvwpa.ca/products
This will probably tick some loggers off but I don't believe a 50/50 split or any type of percentage cut except on the lowest grade stands is in the landowners interest for Pennsylvania, New York and most of Ohio. In my area it typically costs $120 - $150 per thousand board ft(Doyle scale) for a logger to cut. Some independents will try to charge double that. On the very worst piece of timberland I've bought, which also happened to be my 1st, we got .40 cents per board ft.(Doyle scale) on standing timber After paying the forester his 10% we netted about .35 cents a board ft. If we had done a 50/50 split we would have netted .20 cents a board ft as well as dealing with any trucking split. On some nicer pieces of timberland we've bought, the disparity is even greater. On one tract we received a high bid of .92 cents per board ft back in 2005. After paying the foresters cut we received about .82 cents per ft. If we hade done a 50/50 split we would have received .46 cents per board ft.
On the flip side, you'll generally get more board ft out of a tree by a logger than the estimate of the standing tree. From my experience this can be as high as 20%. That can make up for some of the lost revenue to the landowner doing a split.
One last point to make me really hated. The timber market reports can be very low for timber prices. In 2016 we did a timber harvest in nw Pa. According to the Penn St timber market report we should have received .40 cents per board ft. We received .65 cents. We timbered some very nice mature trees but also around 1/3 of the trees were poor quality and taken for stand improvement. We've seen this same trend on other timber tracts we've owned. On low quality stands the pricing tends to be more accurate. When you understand that the mills are the ones providing prices for these reports, you may question their motivation for the prices they report.
I figure its like anything else. The more hands off you want to be, the more itll cost ya (In fees to have other humans do your labor.) The more hands on ya get, well the more that'll cost ya too.. (in equipment and repairs and all the struggles that inseperably come with actually doing any sort of commerce.)
Theres no honest easy money, and probably shouldnt be.
Mike said it really well--the less hands on you are the more you'll pay, or at least that's how it used to be! Now first of all, I don't know why you think you'll be hated--unless you are either feeling guilty about something OR you are implying that all loggers are somehow crooks who are "stealing from helpless old ladies"! I know this does happen, I never have and I'll bet many other loggers here haven't either. However, the real point I'd like to make is that buying any timber job is such a complicated thing; such as the type of wood i.e. species and quality, location difficulty of the operational logistics both in the woods and the highways and surrounding area, forester or not. So, to make an apples to apples comparison of every job or species is not realistic. Obviously the landowner or investor wants to maximize his value, but have you any idea of the expenses and hoops that the logger has to jump through? Besides, the art of negotiation and also character judgement on the landowners part must come into play--where does this show up in your bottom line figures or the State Forestry Dept. general guideline prices? I always have kept a 20,40,000 dollar timber buy line of credit , but some jobs did not justify an out front payment due to many of the factors I've mentioned above. Get to know the logger, negotiate--I cut jobs on split % for veneer and prime as opposed to the low grade, or a lower% for me altogether when I considered all the costs involved. Personally, i had 1-2 trucks and did not include a workbill or separate trucking costs - I pointed that out in my negotiations. I don't know if Dobie is an investor or landowner--but generalizations are dangerous, every job stands on it's own. Also, most private consulting foresters generally charged 15% in this area of Ohio.
I've said too much. I'll keep my mouth shut.
Loggers and land owners look at different prices, owners look at what a logger offers, loggers look at mill gate prices, what the mill will pay at the gate. Prices around here have been logger costs are anywhere from $25/ton to more, depending on product . So, loggers know what the mill will pay them, what they have to make, and what they can offer the land owner. Pine log prices last trimester around here was $25.60 per ton. Pulp $7.82 a ton. So the log price is about 50-50, pulp you can see. In pulp it may be a 1 to 3 ratio, not much is moving right now, except "good" logs.
The best that can be done is sell through a forester, competitive bids, or sit on it. Timber is a bank account, you don't have to sell except for some situations, like cash flow or beetles, so it stays there a grows.
Land owners need to be patient when prices are low.
Sw Ohio logger. Great post
@Dobie (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20505) why have you said to much? What is your occupation? You brought up good points. If like to hear more
Thanks, Chep . Dobie, I think it's unfortunate that you've chosen to disengage. However, general assumptions can be as harmful to landowners as they can be to loggers. Unrealistic expectations are leading this business {logging and wood procurement} to a slow, steady death. Less loggers, especially smaller operators, will only lead to lower prices for landowners for their trees in the long run. You know, I'm older now, but still cutting timber and helping other guys make it in this way of life, just because I want to see them succeed. I learned that you sell yourself to the landowner first with good character presentation and reputation--I am not going to be on your land unless you are satisfied with me. I have learned that is something that a consulting forester may not be able to deliver--a personal connection. I've got a lot of stories about this just no real way to tell them!
Rather than selling his timber Dobie might try hiring his own logger and pay by the cord and thousand for harvesting. Take the low bid and see what you get.
SW Oh Logger hit the nail on the head. It is the personal connection that matters to my son and I and as a result we have landowners coming to us to harvest their timber.
Quote from: jwilly3879 on February 08, 2018, 08:08:55 AM
Rather than selling his timber Dobie might try hiring his own logger and pay by the cord and thousand for harvesting. Take the low bid and see what you get.
SW Oh Logger hit the nail on the head. It is the personal connection that matters to my son and I and as a result we have landowners coming to us to harvest their timber.
I've done that multiple times on high grade pieces and I also paid a forester to scale and bid the logs. No offense but I'm more concerned with how I make out than a "personal connection".
Quote from: chep on February 07, 2018, 01:54:23 PM
Sw Ohio logger. Great post
@Dobie (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20505) why have you said to much? What is your occupation? You brought up good points. If like to hear more
I'm retired military.
Since then I've bought (and mostly sold) 12 different tracts of timberland. All thru realty except 1 which was a neighbor. My wife has a good job which allows me to speculate on land and I love eveything about it.
If real estate agents was your comparison for doing good on land sales, then they must be subdivision sales and not timber management sales. They have no clue what timberland is worth and don't care to. :D That is why up here 99% of landowners clear cut before selling because to the real estate folks they want to throw it in for cheap with the cleared land and buildings. If your only going to get $300/acre, you might as well get more off the timber value before you get that $300. :D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 08, 2018, 03:49:30 PM
If real estate agents was your comparison for doing good on land sales, then they must be subdivision sales and not timber management sales. They have no clue what timberland is worth and don't care to. :D That is why up here 99% of landowners clear cut before selling because to the real estate folks they want to throw it in for cheap with the cleared land and buildings. If your only going to get $300/acre, you might as well get more off the timber value before you get that $300. :D
I've done well buying timberland thru realtors specifically because they have no idea what it's worth nor do they care. Historically, I have to look at 3-4 dozen properties before finding something to get excited about but they're out there if you put in the work.
I've also only have done 1 subdivision on a 100 acre tract of land that I cut into 3 pieces. Not worth the headache and not likely to mess around doing it again. Dealing with government bureaucrats is not something that puts a smile on my face.
So I guess they work for the buyers, like the rest. :-X
@Dobie (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20505)
Thanks for coming back to the conversation.
So when you buy and log these parcels are you getting them into a current use type program with a management plan? or just cutting them and putting them back on the market?
I stay away from ant type of government program. Especially tax incentive ones. What sounds good upfront usually has many strings and you'll pay one way or another.
As for what I do, it all depends on the property. I love finding tracts of land that have cool little cabins on them. With those you can be more selective with how you cut leaving a good stock while making some decent money and reselling the property for near what you bought it for. You get greedy with the timber and you'll pay for it later on. If it's just standard timberland without ant type of cool feature like say Hemlock bottoms with a pretty creek running thru it I might wack it, get most of my money back and sell the residual land dirt cheap for hunting and make my profit there. Where I see peple making mistakes is when they think people are stupid and they'll go and cut all the good trees and leave all the junk and then over price the land. The property just sits on the market for years while I've bought 2-3 more pieces in the meantime because I'm fine with smaller profits in exchange for speed.
When I got out of the military I couldn't tell you the difference between a red oak and a beech tree but I always had a love for land and an admiration for trees so I sort of had a knack for this though I'm still an amateur when it comes to timber.
This is what i figured, our tax dollars "at work" !! It seems to me that what you "do" isn't anything like logging or stand improvement , for future growth not only in the forest or for hardworking individuals trying make an honest living doing what they know and really care about. I should have known... No one said you had to have "personal relationship" with a logger, BUT I fear that some day soon you'll get bit by a shady operator, and the forester may not be able to help you.
What did I miss, how is Dobie steering clear of government programs via tax incentives equate to our tax dollars at work.
Yeah that was kind of a stretch.
Swampdonkey is right. I see land here cut,than the for sale sign goes on it. Probably most times it gets handed down because of a death and they cut the wood on it and then sale it. Use to matter what was on it for trees,that was way back in my Father's time. He always complained about that. Now you get just about the same amount of money with trees or no trees.
Its not really surprising when you consider that the millenial generation has been brainwashed into believing that good forestry is to never ever disturb anything in the forest. Most probably dont ever plan to cut it.
Well I am not a forester by any means, and our logging here is totally different from what you guys do back east or down south, especially on private land.
I read a lot on here and call myself learning and trying to understand, but from what I have read (this coming from more of a farming and ranching type background) the very last thing I would probably do with my land would be to plant trees if I wanted a return on the investment, unless the land was just of no use for farming or even running some kind of stock.
That said, one of my wifes cousins is in the pecan business, and does very well with it.
Depends, many folks have access to incentives for reforestation and first thinnings. Where I am there is no tax incentives to amount to much. Forest land taxation is very low here and not dependant on tree value at all, just acreage. Where I live there are no strings attached to that kind of help and I have been doing it for 30 years, both as the guy doing the assessments and the guy behind the planting dibble or the brush saw (not at the same time). Taxes are paid on the income off harvests, and some of that can be reduced if the forest you own and work is a business (hobbies don't count) where you follow a management plan. The forest grows quick when it is young and thinned out at the right time or planted with the best trees on the site from nurseries that select the best seed for the region. The cutting cycle in these parts seems to run about 40 years, not that a few of us don't grow them for longer for bigger ones. But there is a lot of small sticks on trucks rolling down the road these days, has been for 25 years. The millenial attitudes change in crisis mode when they need to pay the bills, just like anyone else. ;D
I been reading a lot on here. There so much difference logging in how things are done. I only have a short bobtail truck and most loads are 15 to 18 tons. I cut small tracts that our bigger loggers will not cut. I can make money at it because its just me and my son when he out of school. I work offshore 35 days on and 35 days off too so I have another job. But here what I pay to LO as of todays market. I pay the LO on Friday after my wife picks up the checks. I take him all the slips and settle up. I can get 6 loads a day by my self most of the time and on the weekends My son and I bunch the loading ground so I will not have so much to cut when the mills are open.
all Pine
saw logs I get 40 per ton LO get 10 per ton
Pup 21 per ton LO gets 5 per ton
tops 21 per ton LO gets 2 per ton so much more work to get tops out.
chip and saw 29 per ton LO gets 8 per ton
Like I said I cut small tracts I just have my Truck, Loader and tractor I can move in a few hours all at one time. I have cut for 2 diff LO in a day and still get 6 loads. But that's how I do it and with me its take it or leave it. Because there not very many people cutting a few loads here and there. A lot of time if its just a load or 2 I get the wood for free.
Matt