I am about to pull my hair out over my Kohler engine.
It got to skipping and losing power about 3-4 weeks ago.
It would crank and idle perfect. Engage the blade and it would die.
The engine has 1100 hours on it.
Never been in the rain.
Things I have done:
I have had discussions with Woodmizer Indy, Albemarle, N.C. and Kohler.
I have tried everything we discussed.
1. Brand new gas tank installed.
2. Brand new male and female connections from mill to gas tank
3. Brand new fuel lines throughout and new clamps
4. Brand new fuel filters from Kohler
5. Brand new fuel pump from Kohler
6. Brand new spark plugs recommended by Kohler and Woodmizer
7. Brand new plug wires
8. Brand new 02 Censor
9. Brand new Non-ethanol gas
10. Ran Sea-Foam through engine
11. Brand New Inner and outer air filters.
Now the engine runs 98% perfect.
As it stands now.....it cranks perfect and idles perfect.
I can engage the clutch and NO power lost.....acts just like a new engine.
NOW.....when the engine is running and the blade is engaged and its at full RPM's you would think it is perfect.
However, when I hydraulic the back stops up......the engine starts to sputter and finally begins to run right.
When I engage the blade, a puff of smoke comes out and I can smell gas in that puff of smoke....it then goes away.
The engine a 29hp (printed on engine) which legally is now defined as a 26hp.
It is EFI.
I am NOT losing any production cutting wood.....it saws fine.
Sometime when the blade enters a log, it will sputter a little.
This problem is driving me bonkers!
I thought I would check with you guys before pulling the engine and taking it to Kohler in Charlotte, N.C.
Air Filter ? Maybe
i dont know but i would bet if you take the engine off and take it to them it will run perfect while they check and tell you the engine is fine >:( at least thats the luck i have :)
I would run it with an inline spark tester on each plug. If the spark is steady as the engine falters look for debris in the carburetor high speed circuit, it comes into play when load is applied and the throttle is wide open.
Seems like you covered the bases, not sure, but I have a smaller hp on the mower, and was told that Kohler changed the specs on an orfice within the carb due to epa stuff, mine still sputters, the other thing although you did change wires and sensor, this seems the only electrical you addressed, could the voltage be breaking down while loaded and or could it be the mechanical governor? It seems it only happens while under a load,
Quote from: Ohio_Bill on March 02, 2016, 07:23:03 PM
Air Filter ? Maybe
Yes....BRAND NEW Kohler air filter. Inner and outer.
The engine is EFI. No carburetor.
I would check valve clearance and make sure the rockers are lifting high enough.
It would not be the first camshaft with lob worn off.
Also could be ignition breaking down hence the fuel smell. Might try a new coil or two and keep old one for spare if that's not it.
Odd that the hydraulic backstops will cause it, that would or should be just a small load from the alt. Almost seems like something electrical is going on.
Quote from: starmac on March 02, 2016, 07:51:18 PM
Odd that the hydraulic backstops will cause it, that would or should be just a small load from the alt. Almost seems like something electrical is going on.
This is what we have been talking about since replacing the other parts. I checked the alt. and battery with the meter everything is fine when the engine is at idle and when the blade is running. However, I cannot check it when I raise the backstops.....not enough hands. I may pull the alt. and take it and get it checked out at the shop so they can load it up.
Is the MIL on? (malfunction indicator light). If so pull the code and unveil the gremlin causing your problems.
Also check for a vacuum leak usually on the intake, verify your governor settings, and check your throttle position sensor.
Quote from: hamish on March 02, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
Is the MIL on? (malfunction indicator light). If so pull the code and unveil the gremlin causing your problems.
Also check for a vacuum leak usually on the intake, verify your governor settings, and check your throttle position sensor.
The code light does not work at all. I told WM about it and they didn't say anything.
I went through turning the key on and off 3 times as the book said....it doesn't work. Its like it never was hooked up.
So most likely the MIL was optional (the engine spec number can confirm this), and why any manufacturer (Woodmizer in this case) would not automatically include it is beyond me.
Stop chasing your tail (goats have tails too!), pull the motor and have a Kohler dealer pull the codes.
Guessinosis is a terrible way to troubleshoot things.
There was a TSB out about those engines having inadequate grounding a few years ago. Kohler should be able to tell you about it.
It's sounding like you have an intermittent engine control problem. There must be a "brain" somewhere (PCM - power control module), this being an EFI engine. I'm guessing this is the culprit. You've covered all the other problem areas. Your problem is likely in the circuit board of the PCM. A new one will probably fix your problem. Whenever I ran into these types of problems on vehicles and there are no codes thrown but still has a slight problem running, a new PCM always solved these annoying little problems.
One question: is this engine built with adjustable valvetrain or is it hydraulic lifters and requires no valve adjustment? Just curious...for future reference for myself.
Quote from: Ox on March 02, 2016, 08:21:31 PM
One question: is this engine built with adjustable valvetrain or is it hydraulic lifters and requires no valve adjustment? Just curious...for future reference for myself.
I truly have no earthly idea.
Sounds like ignition but don't rule out exhaust. It could have broke something in the muffler that is restricting it. I chased my tail (which I don't have) for a long time once on a muffler that had been plugged by mice filling it with oats for the winter. Hold your hand over the end and feel the pressure difference while you put under a load.
My guess would be something in the "brain". Too bad the check engine light doesn't work, that would probably help immensely.
It seems like everything now is has a computer involved. My old mill had a 18HP Briggs. Over 2,000 hours and I never did a thing except change the oil and air filter. I don't think I ever even changed a spark plug.
I know you said no carb but I had this issue I couldn't figure out with my snowblower this year and the culprit was related to air intake screw (3:20 into video), not sure if this concept exists on your engine but figured it couldn't hurt to share at the point. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jKl_5EOt1bQ
I don't know either, but since you have not mentioned it, maybe the fuel injectors are worn, since they are electo/mechanical devices. If the ports have worn and become enlarged, it might be allowing excess gas to be injected (black smoke) under load. I have same engine but no where near 1100 hours, so I will be taking notes so when mine starts acting up.
Dave, there is an engine control module under a cover on the outboard side of the motor. right behind the non-functional status light. It definitely contains a micro-processor (computer). Computers don't like spikes and dips in the power supply. If actuating the hydraulics for the backstop causes the problem, what about the loader or toe rollers ? Chances are, there's nothing wrong with your motor, arcing and sparking somewhere else causing voltage fluctuations in the 12 volt electrical supply causing the control computer to go bonkers.. OH and for what it's worth, the last one of these I wrenched on, the bulb in the status light was burned out...
1100 hours. Have you tried a compression test to check the cylinder and valves?
It should not matter which hydraulic operation you are doing. Other than loading a log, the amperage should be about the same. Use a digital voltmeter and read the alternator output. It should be over 14 volts. What is the reading with the hydraulics operating?
Quote from: Sixacresand on March 02, 2016, 09:15:41 PM
If the ports have worn and become enlarged, it might be allowing excess gas to be injected (black smoke) under load.
The puff of smoke only comes when I engage the blade. After that, no more puffs.
Quote from: pineywoods on March 02, 2016, 09:30:47 PM
the bulb in the status light was burned out...
Now this is a thought. Thanks.
when it misses is it one bank or both you could have a weak coil, does yours have a coil for each bank tj
Quote from: Magicman on March 02, 2016, 09:42:32 PM
Use a digital voltmeter and read the alternator output. It should be over 14 volts. What is the reading with the hydraulics operating?
Don't know yet. I'm getting a digital meter tomorrow. This is 1 thing I really want to know. What the output is under HD operations.
Quote from: tjhammer on March 02, 2016, 09:46:24 PM
when it misses is it one bank or both you could have a weak coil, does yours have a coil for each bank tj
You can't buy just plug wires....I had to get the coil pack with the plug wire......one unit. Company in Oregon will have me ANOTHER one to try this Friday afternoon. They're working with me trying to figure this out.
Good people helping me all the way around.
Does your engine have a fuel pressure regulator? I had one go bad and had similar problems,just my thought. good luck
Quote from: cwimer973 on March 02, 2016, 09:08:57 PM
I know you said no carb but I had this issue I couldn't figure out with my snowblower this year and the culprit was related to air intake screw (3:20 into video), not sure if this concept exists on your engine but figured it couldn't hurt to share at the point.
Hey thanks for the video I have similar blower with similar engine with similar problem. I tried adjusting the carb only to find that there are no adjustments. Gonna give this a go next time and hope it does it! Thanks!
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 02, 2016, 09:48:52 PMDon't know yet. I'm getting a digital meter tomorrow. This is 1 thing I really want to know. What the output is under HD operations.
That is the reason that I installed the permanent voltmeter, but you still need a good digital voltmeter and clamp-on DC ammeter.
I have a 27hp kohler on my tk1600. Mine isn't fuel injected. I had trouble with the electric blade clutch and in monkeying with that I shorted a hot wire to ground. Messed up the coils. in working with the Kohler mechanic we discovered that this unit has electronic coils with a chip in each one. Guess they have had trouble with them and there is a replacement kit to convert back to the old style coils. This doesn't sound like your problem, but thought I would mention it cause electronic stuff failing can do some weird things. Mine is a CH740-3148.
Hello,
First fix the light. There are two wires that go into the light. You can hook up a 12volt light to the wires( test light) and check for codes. Sounds like a governor issue.
I had one of these with a loose throttle plate. Factory never tightened the screws on the plate inside the intake. Base idle could also be low check min rpm.
When you run the hydraulic pump you turn on the alternator and it cycles the governor. Could be something as simple as a spring broken or loose ,weak governor spring.
Not sure if this helps. We don't see many issues with these engines.
Marty
To answer some of the questions ...
It has hydraulic lifters.
There's separate coil for each cylinder.
Mine has 2500 hours on it and no compression or injector problems.
I've had three kinds of problems with the fuel system. One was a pinhole leak in the suction tube in the fuel tank. David's replaced the tank, so that isn't it. The second was a worn O-ring on the suction connector -- that's happened several times. David has replaced those, so that isn't the problem.
The third problem was self-inflicted. I had trouble with the plastic return line connector in the winter -- couldn't always get it unplugged. So I replaced it with the same kind of metal connector as the suction line has. That worked great ... until I once fired up the mill without connecting the fuel return line. Then it would not run at high speed at all (even after I plugged in the return line).
It turns out that the valve in the fuel line end of the connector got pushed firmly shut and the remaining pressure in the line kept it shut. The way these engines work (at least with my mill) is the fuel pump feeds fuel at a fairly high pressure to a "fuel rail" that feeds the injectors. A pressure regulator maintains the rail pressure at 34 PSI (if I remember correctly). The excess fuel returns to the fuel tank via the return line. With the connector valve shut, the excess fuel had nowhere to go but into the engine! Exactly the same effect as a carburetor with the high speed jet opened to far.
A faulty fuel pressure regulator could cause a similar effect even if the fuel connectors were fine.
Before I bought any more parts I would clean all of the ground wire connectors on the engine. I don't know if the gas engines are similar to my diesel engine but I had some issues with mine and it ended up being a bad ground connection. There should be a black box on the loader side of the engine with some relays in there. It will contain a ground bolt with several ground wires on it. Clean every wire and make sure that the connector is tight on the end of the wire. Make sure where they contact the metal on the engine that you clean it extremely well so you have a good ground.
Quote from: StimW on March 02, 2016, 07:34:04 PM
I would check valve clearance and make sure the rockers are lifting high enough.
It would not be the first camshaft with lob worn off.
Also could be ignition breaking down hence the fuel smell. Might try a new coil or two and keep old one for spare if that's not it.
This. Could be the valves needs adjusting.
:-\ I know you've already checked a lot of stuff. Try starting it up in the dark with no lights on to see if there are any arcs visible. Won't cost anything.
Week today my mechanic and myself put a digital voltage meter on the battery.
Everything is good per Woodmizer. Charges at a little over 14. When I use the hydraulics, it pulls it down to 12.5.
So then we check the code light. Low and behold, it came from the factory never hooked up. We then hooked the light up and the light does not work. Bad bulb I guess.
So we hook up a test light to run the code and it works like a champ. The only problem is, it blinks code 61 telling me it finds nothing.
I thought the problem might me with the Throttle sensor. Ron at WM didn't think so. If it were bad the throttle would be going crazy.
I'm at the point now to where I think it may be an injector tip needing attention. Its getting to much fuel at certain times. My pull the engine off and go to Kohler.
Quote from: JAOGWASM on March 03, 2016, 09:59:21 AM
:-\ I know you've already checked a lot of stuff. Try starting it up in the dark with no lights on to see if there are any arcs visible. Won't cost anything.
I am not taking this lightly. This is a very good idea Jaogwasm.
Thanks for the suggestion.
It sounds like somebody has got your goat! smiley_turkey_dancing smiley_alcoholic_01 smiley_big_grin3
There is a timing advance system built into the Kohlers.
You have your 2 separate coils (ignition modules) a spark advance module and a magnetic pickup.
It is actually a pretty good system most times.
Because yours works most times I would say you have a ground issue somewhere.
The voltage regulator which is not part of the ignition is mounts to the plastic housing surrounding the flywheel. Should be 2 AC wires coming from the stator they will plug into this module on the outside tabs. The center tab is the DC and this goes toward the battery. There is also a little often overlooked ground strap that of course grounds the regulator to the engine block.
Kohler has always stressed to us to check the grounds as this is where most of their problems come from.
So I will also stress looking at the grounds.
If its not a huge job on this mill perhaps you could even remove the flywheel housing and just check the wiring inside there.
Regards Chris
It's a very simple Fix . Start by sending me $300 . . .
It truly sucks when you know it's almost perfect, but not quite, and the computer tells you there's no faults. Give me a magneto and an updraft carburetor and shimmed babbit bearings (old tractor iron) anyday over this computerized stuff. It's just too maddening at times.
One good thing - information in an earlier post informs us your engine has hydraulic lifters which means there is no adjustment for the valves necessary. You said the engine runs out fine and idles fine which indicates proper functioning valvetrain. If a lifter was partially collapsed, you'd have a doggy engine and bad idling with a raw fuel smell likely. If a lifter was fully collapsed you'd have a completely dead cylinder and it'll be running like it was half dead. 100% it's not a valvetrain issue. I'm betting a dollar on an electrical issue (wire, computer, sensor, etc.) But heck, if it runs 98 or 99% I'd be happy with it because I'm not too picky on some stuff. As long as it idles well and saws wide open well, that's your majority of running. Kinda like a chainsaw - it's either idle or wide open 99% of the time. :)
Hey Poston...you aren't, by chance, lucky enough to have a mechanic buddy with a handheld oscilloscope? I know I'm stretching, but doesn't hurt to ask...
If so, let me know, and I could guide anyone through some fast, easy tests to narrow this one down...if it was mine, this is what I would do...prolly not in the right order, but the easiest...
1-check power to brain via good dvom/high impedance under occurance... Need a quick meter, like a fluke, or scope...under 12v at any time fails...do the same check on the brain ground side...anything over a few tenths of a volt is a problem, and that's being liberal...these tests should be done at the brain, via careful backprobing...
2-eliminate fuel supply issues by installing a fuel psi guage, monitor for drop during occurance...
3-check valve adjustment... Despite running good at idle, throttle up, if the valves are too tight on an engine with hydraulic lifters, it can float the valves at high rpm/load, causing what you describe...
4-check power supply to coils under occurance, with same parameters as listed in step 1
4-these tests require a scope, fluke 88, or such...check trigger side of coils for loss of signal during occurance... From here, if you lose or have a poor signal, you can jump back to the primary triggering device, and check the a/c signal off the two wire crank sensor... Only thing in between is the module... Where does it get its ground? Many get it from the place they bolt to...check for corroded bolts, mounting flange, and such... Clean them with sandpaper anyway...if provided by wire, check the power and ground in the same manner listed for the brain in step one...modules, whether it be the computer, ignition module, or other, basically just count on 4 things to work right...power, ground, good info in, then their own integrity... Garbage in, garbage out...
Hope this helps someone at some point
bkaimwood, please stop by and give my engine a colonoscopy.
I understood the grounds with sand paper.....but the rest?......I just don't know.
I have a friend that has the same mill I do and same engine. His starting acting the same way. I spoke to him today. He took his to Kohler and they had to put a new came shaft and fix an injector. $1500.00. :o :o :o
If you go and spend 1500 spend more and get a diesel. ;D
I wish I could... I need a vacation, and SC sounds good to me!!! But seriously, wish you were closer, would help you anyway I could... I could help you diagnose a bad cam, if you can take a valve cover off and have a dial indicator. If you end up with a pal that has close to what might help with diagnosis as I mentioned, feel free to PM me or whatever, I'd be more that happy to guide you or anyone through diagnosis...like ox said, sometimes 98% is good enough...
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 04, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
If you go and spend 1500 spend more and get a diesel. ;D
$8200. I've checked it out.
I'm willing to bet you could find a used diesel somewhere..the engines that they use are real common. Hope you get her figured out.
Quote from: 4x4American on March 04, 2016, 08:39:41 PM
I'm willing to bet you could find a used diesel somewhere..the engines that they use are real common. Hope you get her figured out.
I called WM Indy today. The salesman said I could not put a diesel on an LT40HD because of weight.
I think he's wrong.
Anyway, I told him he was wrong.....I maybe wrong.
He said they did not have any conversion kits to go from gas to diesel.
If I bought the diesel, I would get it in a crate with the wiring harness and I was on my own. :D
I think he was a new guy. :)
But again, I may be the one that is wrong. I just don't know. I will eventually take the engine to Kohler when the fish start biting good. :D
My son and I just went to the mill and cranked it in the pitch dark.
Ran the hydraulics and the blade. It spit and sputtered as usual.
I was looking for maybe an arc of electricity......but saw nothing.
8200 bucks, and you are on your own? Sounds like the start of a secret savings stash for a new mill someday.. :)
Our '99 non-Super LT40 at work has a 33hp Kubota diesel. They may not offer a diesel conversion, but you could certainly put one on. If it was not a complete bolt on kit from WM, then I don't see the advantage of buying one of their engines at that price. Surplus Center would have something far cheaper that would work. I've never felt the need for more power with this mill, and it would take a really long day to burn a tank of fuel.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 04, 2016, 09:33:42 PM
I've never felt the need for more power with this mill, and it would take a really long day to burn a tank of fuel.
I agree Dave...The 29 I have its all the power I need. I'm not in a race. :D
Even with it skipping, I can still put out the lumber.
Don't know if you have one close, but my Dixie Chopper dealer has the best Kohler mechanic in our area.
That's crazy!!! I woulda told him that if we can put a man on the moon we can most certainly put a diesel engine on a sawmill for cryin out loud!!!
You would of really blown his mind if you mentioned that Canadian on here who cut his sawmill in half and made it an extendaboom or whatever you wanna call it.
When I picked up my second mill (LT40HDG28), the dealer tried to tempt me with a diesel powered LT40HD. I don't remember what the power was, but it was a standard WM offering.
David, when I had to get my engine looked at, the nearest Kohler repair shop was an hour from here. The owner told me to bring the whole mill, as it would be easier for both of us.
David,
I agree with the previous post.Find a service center that will let you bring the mill to them.They should have everything needed to perform diagnostics.I know it is frustrating but you will get it sorted out.
Best of luck to you,
Mick
When I bought my LT40HDD35 with the 35 HP diesel last Junel, they told me that because of the weight of the diesel, that my mill, while not a super, was built on the super frame.
What is the difference? I thought the only different parts were the up down and drive motors, etc.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 05, 2016, 11:17:07 AM
What is the difference? I thought the only different parts were the up down and drive motors, etc.
Me too!
What does the conversion kit from gas to diesel consist of? I sure don't know. say_what
Hello,
Which question do I start with?
If you change the mill from gas to diesel. Start with a new wiring harness because if the glow plug light, front panel has a light to show you the glow plugs are on. The engine drive belt and drive pulley are three grove 3/5V and the gas engine has two grove pulley. The belt support for the belt is different.
The Diesel engine kit is for changing from Lombardini diesel, Kubota Diesel or Cat to Yanmar. It includes, engine, alternator , engine mount and covers new drive belt. Radiator is also included. It would not include the parts listed above like wiring harness, drive pulley and front operator panel etc.
It is not that WM would not let you purchase the kit. It is just hard to diagnosis a issue if it has been changed or not engineered to have a retro kit.
Marty
I think it would be most cost effective, if a goat's time is worth anything, to trade up to a diesel, rather than make the switch.
I've learned a lot this morning. If you have this type of Kohler engine and you DO NOT have a manual......
then you will be completely in the dark and throwing money right out the window.
First, there are 2 fuel pumps. Read the manual.
Lets just say the problem is 1 of the fuel pumps or both for that matter.
Even is you replace them your problem has not been fixed.
This is a closed loop system. Meaning, that if anything in that loop goes wrong, the engine will not run right.
You can change everything in that loop to brand new parts and it still will not run right.
Why????
The computer MUST BE RESET!
How do you know what is wrong in that loop?
You run the code light. Mine was burn out and and not even hooked up when I got it. I had to use a test light. The test light worked BUT if the computer was not reset after everything I did, it did not give the proper code.
Anything that is replaced, the next thing is to reset the computer.
When I put on the new fuel pump, I did not reset the computer. I don't even know is it was the fuel pump because the code light was burned out.
Now I'n gonna have to go by the manual and figure out how to reset the computer, then run the code light to pin point exactly what is wrong. IT IS POSSIBLE that when I reset the computer, the engine may run correctly because of the reset.
When I got this engine and it was installed by Woodmizer, they did not give me a manuel.
Woodmizer......I love ya but make sure the customer gets a manual.....it is important.
Woodmizer......I love ya but when something goes wrong with a Kohler 29, please tell the customer what ever he changes the loop on the engine.....THE COMPUTER MUST BE RESET or time and money is just wasted.
A lot of company's sell this engine, not just Woodmizer. If you are a seller of this engine, MAKE SURE you have read the manual from cover to cover or you are wasting your time and the customer's with your recommendations.
How did I finally get a manual? Ron from Woodmizer sent it to me Thursday. Thanks Ron.
Let's tighten up team....we all need to read these manuals and KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON before giving advice.
When things slow down a little, Kohler said bring it to them....they already know the engine is from Woodmizer by the number I gave them Friday. They also told me the problem may already be fixed and the engine will start running right once I RESET the computer.
Y'all have a good weekend. GO ORANGE
I would have told you that . But you never sent me $300
The manual for my Kohler is available for free on the Kohler website. Couple hundred pages. Kohler also has friendly and knowledgeable techs that will help trouble shoot at no charge over the phone.
Unfortunately when the mouse chewed into my wiring I was not able to figure it out. The Kohler trained service man made short work of it. I would always go to him first, but he is normally back logged a couple of weeks.
Quote from: Larry on March 06, 2016, 12:06:58 PM
The manual for my Kohler is available for free on the Kohler website. Couple hundred pages. Kohler also has friendly and knowledgeable techs that will help trouble shoot at no charge over the phone.
Yep, lots of pages and hard to take a lap top and use it at the mill. >:(
Kohler told me when I get time to bring it to them.
So there,sounds like you are going down the right path now. ;D Good luck!!
Thanks for passing that on Dave.
good info. I don't have a kohler, but i occasionally wrench on other sawyers mills. I would be interested in what's actually involved in reseting the computer. Most of the control computers I have fiddled with do a scan and reset every time power is applied..
Quote from: pineywoods on March 06, 2016, 01:43:18 PM
Most of the control computers I have fiddled with do a scan and reset every time power is applied..
Taking the negative battery post off for 1 minute resets the code finder. But on another note, the computer has to be reset also. If not, the code light will keep telling you something is wrong.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 02, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
Quote from: hamish on March 02, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
Is the MIL on? (malfunction indicator light). If so pull the code and unveil the gremlin causing your problems.
Also check for a vacuum leak usually on the intake, verify your governor settings, and check your throttle position sensor.
The code light does not work at all. I told WM about it and they didn't say anything.
I went through turning the key on and off 3 times as the book said....it doesn't work. Its like it never was hooked up.
Maybe now that it's hooked up try doing this again?
Quote from: 4x4American on March 06, 2016, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 02, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
Quote from: hamish on March 02, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
Is the MIL on? (malfunction indicator light). If so pull the code and unveil the gremlin causing your problems.
Also check for a vacuum leak usually on the intake, verify your governor settings, and check your throttle position sensor.
The code light does not work at all. I told WM about it and they didn't say anything.
I went through turning the key on and off 3 times as the book said....it doesn't work. Its like it never was hooked up.
Maybe now that it's hooked up try doing this again?
The bulb is burned out. Have to use a test light.
Gives code 61 al the time.
Needs the computer reset.
Did you put in the jumper wire? (CU Reset Procedure from service port to 4 way diagnostic port)
Man I hate the new stuff... If I can't fix it then I don't want it.
My truck is the same way. Sometimes you just don't have a choice.
Everything getting unfixable unless you have schooling for it.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 06, 2016, 11:15:39 AM
Let's tighten up team....we all need to read these manuals and KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON before giving advice.
Please don't yell at us... We are just trying to help. When answering questions that ask for help, we just do our best.... Remember most of the responses come from fellas that do not have the exact same piece of equipment as you, and certainly not the manual for it!!! Hahahahahaha, just giving you a hard time, we can tell your just venting over a drawn out concern that you may have already fixed, and just a simple thing performed after the repair would have completed it successfully, and the post would never have been made in the first place...been there. All we can hope is that it fixes your problem, and that your provided information helps the next unfortunate soul.
On a side note, just an informational note...if there were no codes, most of the computer controlled equipment out there has no need to reset...you are not resetting codes, there were none...but however, you are resetting fuel adaptations, or strategies, that the computer has "learned" via an algorithm over a predetermined operating period. Most technology now days can easily relearn back in the right direction, with no reset. I'm hoping yours is one that has trouble relearning without a reset, and you can out this thing to bed!!!
bkaimwood, I'm not yelling at ya, I promise. :)
I think all of us at one time to another have worked on something and said at least, once...."Why don't they do this?"....or " if I were them I would have...." or "I can't believe they did this this way".... :D
I have the mill packed up right now, she's ready to roll. Leaving out for the Kohler in the morning place only 30 minutes away.
I will say this....I have learned a lot during this process....positive things.
I have not lost any production to my engine problem, I decided to just take it to Kohler for fear the problem may get worse or damage something else.
Its all good (old saying)....If he tells me it will be fixed in 3 days, I will tell him to keep it a week. :D
I can help my Dad catch up on some of the disking on the fields.
I'll let y'all know what's up with the engine. :) Maybe this thread will trouble shoot someone else's problem in the future.
I know poston, let inquiring minds want to know...finger crossed!!
Quote from: bkaimwood on March 06, 2016, 08:21:58 PM
I know poston, let inquiring minds want to know...finger crossed!!
Thanks. Honestly I'm kinda excited about going...I'll get to learn something from Kohler. :)
Are you carrying a log and blades so that you can put the engine under load? Maybe you can dazzle him with sawdust. :D
Swap the work for a mantle,seems you have a knack for that.By this time next week this will only be a memory.
Either trade or take $300 with you. :)
Quote from: Magicman on March 06, 2016, 09:09:59 PM
Are you carrying a log and blades so that you can put the engine under load? Maybe you can dazzle him with sawdust. :D
I did ask about this. However all I need to do is just raise the backstops. Even when it idles, you can hear a very small miss fire every now and again. They said no problem. Diagnostics will pinpoint the problem.
I said okie Dokie.....I'll tell Magicman. :D
Did Yukon send you the magic spoon yet? That might save you the trip to Kohler :D
Quote from: 4x4American on March 06, 2016, 10:49:12 PM
Did Yukon send you the magic spoon yet? That might save you the trip to Kohler :D
No.....I'm still waiting. >:(
On my way to Kohler. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6863.jpg)
Man I sure like my lt15. :D
No complicated equipment that needs hair pulling.
I like the pic of today, that would be me , off to the guy that knows. Lol
Made it to the Hospital. The mill is checked in and and is in room 40. ;D
A preliminary check up by the Dr. said it may take 2 to 2 1/2 weeks.
There is a lot of foreign equipment ahead of me. >:(
Went through a few steps with the surgeon on how to engage the blade and run the hydraulics. They will hook it up to their computer that will pin point the problem. Also a new code light will be installed.
The mill was resting comfortably when I left.
I will give an update as progress becomes available. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6865.jpg)
You could have hit it a lick with the pressure washer before you left it there. Kinda like your kid showing up in the emergency room with dirty underwear. :D
You notice I don't post pictures of mine. :D
Quote from: LeeB on March 07, 2016, 12:40:52 PM
Kinda like your kid showing up in the emergency room with dirty underwear. :D
:D :D :D :D
Did you reset the computer or do you have to take it to them to get it reset?
I was browsing through the greeting cards at Dollar General but failed to find a "Get Fixed Soon" card. Its really the thought that counts. :D
Quote from: Weekend_Sawyer on March 07, 2016, 01:07:08 PM
Did you reset the computer or do you have to take it to them to get it reset?
Kohler will reset everything and run test on the engine.
Quote from: Sixacresand on March 07, 2016, 01:27:38 PM
I was browsing through the greeting cards at Dollar General but failed to find a "Get Fixed Soon" card. Its really the thought that counts. :D
You can get those cards at the Vets office. :D
your vet or another one? wouldn't want a breach of trust.
Two to 2½ weeks! Are you serious? Could you have made an appointment and kept on sawing until they could get to it?
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on March 07, 2016, 03:42:03 PM
Two to 2½ weeks! Are you serious? Could you have made an appointment and kept on sawing until they could get to it?
They don't do appointments. You're put on a list and your stuff better be there rain or shine.
He said a 3 hour job may turn out to be 30 minutes or 6 hours. So having your equipment there may be better than making an appointment and this is why they don't do it.
How long after getting fixed will it take for your mill to return to normal? ;D
Seriously though hope all goes well.
I hear you Chuck. :D :D :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/card.jpg)
Nice card available from the Beitz Card Company, I hear. :D Some of these posts had me grinning. Your wit, sirs, is legendary.
So are you saying the Kohlers engine are that bad, you have a 2 week wait. :o
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 07, 2016, 05:37:05 PM
So are you saying the Kohlers engine are that bad, you have a 2 week wait. :o
This place is huge! It one of the few authorized Kohler repair shops. They have Woodmizer's in their system and know how these engines work on a band mill.
But I did not say what you thought I said Peter. :D
I really don't think its gonna take that long....I hope.
I tell ya, the DanG shed sure looked empty today.
It was really warm today.
I just cleaned up the place and unloaded 2 loads of logs that came in.
After that....I went to the Tanning Bed to get ready for summer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/G1_copy.jpg)
Quote from: Chuck White on March 07, 2016, 05:13:44 PM
How long after getting fixed will it take for your mill to return to normal
I don't think David does normal!
So mostly Kohlers in there beaning a dealer and all. smiley_headscratch
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 07, 2016, 07:12:28 PM
So mostly Kohlers in there beaning a dealer and all. smiley_headscratch
Nope.....imagine the Bass Pro Shop of Lawn equipment. This is huge place. Chainsaws of all brands, weedeaters of all brands, Zero turn mowers of all brands. They put in sprinkler systems on farms and gold courses. Huge water fountains from homes to hotels.
There shop is top of the line with equipment.
They work on all types of engines and have pro mechanics using computer technology and tools to get things running again.
They were recommended to me by Woodmizer.
TSI TURF CARE
Charlotte, N.C.
Good, ;D
Doesn't Kohler make toilets too?? What a kawinkidink I guess.... :)
Just kidding, I hope they can fix it!! I know how dealing with an intermittent or stubborn issue can be from working on an old ford! ;D
At least you will get a nice tan so that you won't sunburn when you come to Georgia.
Quote from: WDH on March 07, 2016, 08:49:20 PM
At least you will get a nice tan so that you won't sunburn when you come to Georgia.
;D
Think I'll stick to my 'Ice Tan'.
That kid in the oven looks like a Baaaad idea.
When we're at Jakes's place, you will hopefully be telling us about how smooooooth your Kohler runs.
Good motors. My son has one on his Morbark log chipper.
Many's a time when I wished that DanG motor would break down, 'cause I needed a break !
POSTSONLT40HD, You posted my suggestion earlier, about starting it in the dark.
He has a coil and wires coming, that should take of that, if it were the problem.
I've not heard a thing since I took the mill on Monday.
I may slip up there tomorrow and see if they have started on it. smiley_curtain_peek
Sure is heart breaking to see an empty mill shed. smiley_cry
The logs are starting to back up. :o :o :o
Take a grill and start cooking food? Tell them they can have some as soon as they start working on it. Maybe burgers and goat cheese? :D
Quote from: KirkD on March 09, 2016, 09:58:45 PM
Take a grill and start cooking food? Tell them they can have some as soon as they start working on it. Maybe burgers and goat cheese? :D
I'm up to trying anything. :D
Sawmill withdrawal soon to be a 12 step program
poston you can come over and run 1 of mine till they get yours going if you want ;D only problem they will have yours fixed by the time you get here :-\ :D :D :D
8 days since you took it in am I the only one who hears Jeopardy music playing? :-\
i hear it to but im waiting on the drum roll..... :D
All that I heard was a Goat blowing his horn.
:D :D :D :D
popcorn_smiley
Maybe we need their phone number so we can call and let the know they are messing with the wrong Goat by not getting on top of it and fixing it. :D
I went up there to visit this morning..... I am not a happy Goat. It's has not been touched.
I swear on my grand paw Billy's grave, I did not cuss them but I did tell them how I felt.
4 different guys explained to me that I'm just a number in line and it looks like they can start on it next Tuesday.
I explained to him I'm not a lawn care service where I can drop a Kohler powered lawn mower off and have 2 backup mowers to keep me caught up.
I have 1.....yes 1 sawmill and I'm getting behind.....way behind.
He told me just be glad I'm in line and have 1 week to wait for them to start.
My ears got red!
What can ya do.....may start figuring numbers to see if it's worth it to have a spare engine on the shelf for times like this.
So that's how it stands for now.
Peter.....I have to agree with you on this one. popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
i would go buy a new honda engine and install it setting in their front parking lot >:( ;D :D :D :D
but i have been accused of being smiley_dizzy smiley_whacko
If I felt like I had to have a spare after treatment like that...it wouldn't be a Kohler. :o
That's one thing we're lucky in out here. We've got a "local" service center that covers all the major brands (except Husqvarna, but that's another story). If they know that you are making your living with a piece of equipment they get you out the door A.S.A.P. They do quality work, not cheap, but quality. ;)
David, it's better to be behind because of mechanical setbacks rather than health setbacks. Be patient. Play golf, build something, go fishing. Easy for me to say: My mill is running fine at the moment.
I guess I understand the repair shop's position, and at least they have a procedure to insure fairness, but two weeks to even get started is tough to swallow. Yikes. I can't blame you for considering alternatives.
Get off a few thousand of that million $ of goat buck$ you got stashed away and get a spare mill. I'll have Jake call you with suggestions as to which mill.
Like most things in Life this is just a TEST
Time to trade in for an LT50? With a Yanmar of course... ;D
EFI ... maybe the O2 sensor in the muffler , or the O2 sensor ground wire ....
That stinks like goat manure..I hope they find the problem once they get to it.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 15, 2016, 10:12:25 PM
I went up there to visit this morning..... I am not a happy Goat. It's has not been touched.
I swear on my grand paw Billy's grave, I did not cuss them but I did tell them how I felt.
4 different guys explained to me that I'm just a number in line and it looks like they can start on it next Tuesday.
I explained to him I'm not a lawn care service where I can drop a Kohler powered lawn mower off and have 2 backup mowers to keep me caught up.
I have 1.....yes 1 sawmill and I'm getting behind.....way behind.
He told me just be glad I'm in line and have 1 week to wait for them to start.
My ears got red!
What can ya do.....may start figuring numbers to see if it's worth it to have a spare engine on the shelf for times like this.
So that's how it stands for now.
Peter.....I have to agree with you on this one. popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
I went thru that last summer for service on my Kohler motor. >:( Come to find out it was a bad rudder gasket in the petcock. Cost me like$80 and the motor was under warranty, but they would not make it good. >:(
I said a long time ago in another post that my mill is like a family member.
It sure does feel like it too. The shed has an empty spot and its a funny feeling when I go down there and Ol Orange Bud ain't there.
I feel for the guys who finally reach the age for one thing or another when they realize the sawing is over.
Its sad dog gone it! :'(
Late arrival....
That old girl was really singing when Roy and I stopped by for our meet-and-greet last month. Sorry to hear that you're having these problems. It will get better. Every situation is temporary. ;)
Durn shame. Maybe spend the time finding another Kohler repair shop so if this happens again, you have an alternative?
Long time ago when I was a little less patient and not as nice as I am now ;D, I brought my pride and joy bass boat into a top of the line repair shop for some engine work near Birminham, Al, a long way from home. They gave me the same type song and dance, it'll take a long time, yer lucky we're working on it, and oh, why are you still here? So I drive off, get madder and madder, went about 10 miles, turned around, came back to the shop, hooked up my boat and started driving away. The manager came running out and yelling what are you doing? And I told him I was about to make a big mistake, and when the manager asked what, I told them the mistake was me letting them touch my boat. So I drove off, found another marine dealership up in Tn, and everything was fixed.
I don't know what the point of my story is, other than I still remember to this day how mad I was at their arrogance and smugness, and how I make sure I NEVER treat one of my customers the same way.
Good luck, I hope it'll work out.
If it was mine, out of all the parts they have for all the lawn mowers, weed eaters, Woodmizers, the problem would be the one part they don't have in stock. That part for some reason couldn't be flown from China. It would have to come on a slow boat in the very bottom shipping container. That's my luck. :-[
Life without a mill, arg-smiley arg-smiley arg-smiley arg-smiley
Patients grasshopper
All good Goats live to butt again. 8)
You need another mill. Jake has 2, he's never not sawing. ;)
Quote from: Raider Bill on March 17, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
You need another mill. Jake has 2, he's never not sawing. ;)
:D :D :D :D smiley_thumbsup
I had maned up and offered him 300$ for that mill before finding out it needed prolonged hospitalisation. But, being who I am, I will honour my offer if so it pleases him. smiley_smug01
It must be a "kind hearted and generous Canadian" thing because I too would offer $300 for his mill to help Poston out and would even go so far as to pay the mill's hospital bill as well.
No one has to " worry " about David as he told us once he has a B O A T
All this spare time to golf and fish.
Quote from: Raider Bill on March 17, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
All this spare time to golf and fish.
But is his golf dress clean and ready to wear???
Herb
he's a cute little feller so i'm sure his dress is clean. materhead
If you think he's cute Raider, you better get your eyes look at. :D
Well, well, well.....I walk in and see that y'all have been really showing me some good ol forestry forum love while I've been working today.
Y'all have done sold my mill for $300, picked out my dress and put me on a boat :o :o :o :o :o :o
What are friends for.
I did manage to do a little something today while tearing up thinking about my mill.
I made these out of old Cedar logs and cedar blow downs. Sanded them down and hung a birdhouse on each one and put on a sign.
These should sell pretty good....I'm mean its stuff I can build without a mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6897.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6901.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6902.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6903.JPG)
Then when I go to leave the mill shed and the F-250 starter goes out.
I finally got it off and will have to take it to Kohler my buddies generator shop in the morning to get it rebuilt. If it ain't one thing its another. >:( >:( >:(
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6911.JPG)
Those are awesome David! What do you think you can get for them, if you don't mind saying.
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on March 17, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
Those are awesome David! What do you think you can get for them, if you don't mind saying.
The one with the regular birdhouse is $150, the one with the Monkey birdhouse is $175.
People set them on their porch, patio, gardens or where ever.
i like those smiley_thumbsup and sorry about the starter :-\
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 17, 2016, 08:15:12 PM
i like those smiley_thumbsup and sorry about the starter :-\
I'll get the starter fixed in the morning.
The bad thing is I've never removed a starter from an F 250. I thought it was held on by 4 bolts....nope, 3.
I pulled the 3rd bolt out and the started came down and hit me right on the head. smiley_tom_dizzy02 headscratch
Hope your mill is better soon.... :) And your head, too ;D
A week after I bought my used diesel truck like yours, the starter FELL off :o :D
No wonder it sounded funny...
OUCH >:( :D :D :D sorry i cant help but laugh but it wasnt funny when the one off my 6.5 diesel done me the same way :-[ i got by without stitches but it did require 2 applications of krazy glue to get sealed up ::) :D :D :D
Sandsawmill14 and Sprucebunny.....ya'll have made me fell better. :D :D :D
Nice work Mr. Poston. You have many talents.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 17, 2016, 08:42:51 PM
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 17, 2016, 08:15:12 PM
i like those smiley_thumbsup and sorry about the starter :-\
I'll get the starter fixed in the morning.
The bad thing is I've never removed a starter from an F 250. I thought it was held on by 4 bolts....nope, 3.
I pulled the 3rd bolt out and the started came down and hit me right on the head. smiley_tom_dizzy02 headscratch
If it is a diesel ask the shop about doing the conversion kit to convert it to use the Dodge starter. It will turn over faster and is a better starter. I did it on my 97 Power Stroke @ 150,000 miles and was glad I spent the extra $40 to do it.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 17, 2016, 09:21:29 PM
.....ya'll have made me fell better. :D :D :D
Did you feel better after you fell? :o :)
mm he is still a little rattled from the lick on the noggin :D :D :D :D :D :D
poston always helps to share the pain :D :D :D ;)
Quote from: Magicman on March 17, 2016, 09:32:55 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 17, 2016, 09:21:29 PM
.....ya'll have made me fell better. :D :D :D
Did you feel better after you fell? :o :)
:D :D :D Took me a minute to figure this one out. :D :D :D I'm a little dazed I guess. ;D
Looks like a good place to hang your starter...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/starter.jpg)
:D :D :D :D......thats pretty good K.
Still staying busy.
Did this Beaver Birdhouse today.
Notice the log chewed halfway at the bottom.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/image~3.jpeg)
Very nice, but why did it fall over? ???
Quote from: Magicman on March 18, 2016, 07:33:05 PM
Very nice, but why did it fall over? ???
I see that Lynn. My boo boos are because I'm doing pics from my cell phone. Just realized.
I'll have to replace the whole pic. :)
I fixed it. :)
Talk about kicking a man goat when he is down. ;D
I was wondering if da beaver finished da feeling felling job.
Quote from: Magicman on March 18, 2016, 09:08:34 PM
I was wondering if da beaver finished da feeling felling job.
:D :D :D :D :D now thats a good 1. :D :D :D :D :D
Did you chew that notch out yourself, Poston, with those little lower jaw goat nibblers of yours? If so, you really must have time on your hands ;D
Well Kohler called about an hour ago. The tech said they reset the computer and the engine is doing the same thing even after all the parts I put on it.
He told me from what they could figure is that the engine is getting to much air. He thinks the head gasket may have a space in it and they will pull the head to see if that is the problem.
They did check all the exterior hoses for leaks and they were good.
It for sure, once they pull the head off, I will surely need a new head gasket.
I thought you could run a compression test before taking off the head.
Said it would be a 2 hour job and he would call me later. :-\
Sure thing they should be able to use a compression Tester but you may not be able to tell 8f it's the valve seats or gasket. I had a Kohler that had bad seats that leaked where they were pressed in.
Might be your problem... Kohler is known for bad head gaskets in certain models.
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 21, 2016, 06:36:03 PM
Might be your problem... Kohler is known for bad head gaskets in certain models.
Cheap material I guess.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 21, 2016, 06:43:06 PM
Quote from: Kbeitz on March 21, 2016, 06:36:03 PM
Might be your problem... Kohler is known for bad head gaskets in certain models.
Cheap material I guess.
I don't think so... I think the problem is to small of an area for sealing and head bolt stretch.
I think you suppose to retoque the head bolts every so often.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 21, 2016, 04:05:28 PM
Well Kohler called about an hour ago. The tech said they reset the computer and the engine is doing the same thing even after all the parts I put on it.
He told me from what they could figure is that the engine is getting to much air. He thinks the head gasket may have a space in it and they will pull the head to see if that is the problem.
They did check all the exterior hoses for leaks and they were good.
It for sure, once they pull the head off, I will surely need a new head gasket.
I thought you could run a compression test before taking off the head.
Said it would be a 2 hour job and he would call me later. :-\
??? if it getting to much air ( sucking in from leak) that would be easy to find with ether :-\ if it was leaking compression would be easy to check with a gauge headscratch maybe its built different from my old one ??? maybe they will get it done in a day or 2 though :)
But the mill will not be ready until they run out of Logs . How many blades did you give them ?
What sands said...
Maybe some head studs will be on your grocery list
Quote from: Seavee on March 21, 2016, 04:31:15 PM
Sure thing they should be able to use a compression Tester but you may not be able to tell 8f it's the valve seats or gasket. I had a Kohler that had bad seats that leaked where they were pressed in.
They could use the engine leak down tester that is part of the basic Kohler engine tool kit required by all dealers to have (and should be in any hacks tool box), which would narrow the major guessinosis down to 3 of the 4 major engine components.
On the minor side of things, I keep wandering towards the governor system.......................just saying..........the engine still has a mechanical governing system..................
Quote from: red on March 21, 2016, 09:09:50 PM
But the mill will not be ready until they run out of Logs . How many blades did you give them ?
:D
Quote from: hamish on March 21, 2016, 10:13:51 PM
Quote from: Seavee on March 21, 2016, 04:31:15 PM
Sure thing they should be able to use a compression Tester but you may not be able to tell 8f it's the valve seats or gasket. I had a Kohler that had bad seats that leaked where they were pressed in.
They could use the engine leak down tester that is part of the basic Kohler engine tool kit required by all dealers to have (and should be in any hacks tool box), which would narrow the major guessinosis down to 3 of the 4 major engine components.
On the minor side of things, I keep wandering towards the governor system.......................just saying..........the engine still has a mechanical governing system..................
I agree a compression test and leak down should have been done by any professional shop before a call to the customer. does not take long to do both.
starting to sound to me like the old Midas commercial where they have "three of their best guys on it right now"
I feel your pain on this.
I hate to see parts thrown at a problem. Keep doing something until you finally find what was wrong. :-\
WOW , I feel for ya David. A 10 page thread with no end in sight. You can come up and run my mill if you have DTs, I could learn a lot from someone who actually knows how to run a bandmill !
Frank
David, You can come run my mill while I'm trying to survive brain cancer. I'm lookin at a 40' trailer of logs in my log yard that's drivin me crazy.
Quote from: gfadvm on March 22, 2016, 10:15:14 AM
David, You can come run my mill while I'm trying to survive brain cancer. I'm lookin at a 40' trailer of logs in my log yard that's drivin me crazy.
I'm praying for ya Brother. Hang in there and fight.
Don't worry about those logs right now. :)
That's right Andy. The logs can wait until you get better.
Quote from: WDH on March 22, 2016, 04:16:38 PM
That's right Andy. The logs can wait until you get better.
I just sold the last of my big slabs, feel fine, and bored. I'm not a sit around kind of guy. Surgeon removed 98% of the tumors and chemo and radiation will probably begin in the next week or two. May not feel this good then so wanted to saw some before then. But I'll wait :(
Quote from: gfadvm on March 22, 2016, 08:24:03 PM
Quote from: WDH on March 22, 2016, 04:16:38 PM
That's right Andy. The logs can wait until you get better.
I just sold the last of my big slabs, feel fine, and bored. I'm not a sit around kind of guy. Surgeon removed 98% of the tumors and chemo and radiation will probably begin in the next week or two. May not feel this good then so wanted to saw some before then. But I'll wait :(
If I was close enough you could bet your sweet bippy I'd be sawing your logs for you. smiley_chop
Kohler called me yesterday as I posted and said checking seals would be a 2 hour job and they would call me.
No word from them until I called them at 3pm today.
They told me the Technician that is working on my mill got a call to go out in the field and work on an engine.
Sooooo.....this is what I'm dealing with.
Note to Woodmizer: I would drop their engines in the blink of an eye.
So... the tech is out o a field trip, could he have not gone to you...... Just askin' ???
Sounds like some wheel with more "squeak" got the grease. Perhaps if Corporate knew that your saga was posted on the internet, you would get more respect. I hope in the end your engine is fixed and gives you many years of service.
Quote from: isawlogs on March 22, 2016, 08:47:16 PM
So... the tech is out o a field trip, could he have not gone to you...... Just askin' ???
This is a good point Frenchy. I'm gonna ask them when I go get my mill.....if that day ever comes. smiley_hourglass
Maybe you should give the tech an extra $300 to stay in the shop and work on your mill. :D :D ;)
You need to remember to tell them that you also have a field that they could work out of..... A fileds a field as far as I go.
Who you callin' Frenchy.... MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... Moiiiiiiii ! I resemble that remarque.... smiley_smug01
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 22, 2016, 08:41:33 PMThey told me the Technician that is working on my mill got a call to go out in the field and work on an engine
If I am following you the guy in the field did not have to wait two weeks. The technician dropped your work and drove to his?? :-\
You have waited this Long . Keep focused on the Goal of a good running engine . when you are hanging in there your not suppose to let go .
Quote from: Magicman on March 22, 2016, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 22, 2016, 08:41:33 PMThey told me the Technician that is working on my mill got a call to go out in the field and work on an engine
If I am following you the guy in the field did not have to wait two weeks. The technician dropped your work and drove to his?? :-\
This is what gets under my skin. Evidently they service customer's equipment FIRST that buy their equipment from their outlet.
I did not have a choice where to buy my Kohler, it was provided by Woodmizer.
Personally, when I buy a piece of equipment, part of my buying is based on the customer service reviews. If customer service is top priority for a company, they will get my business.
I didn't have an Ace in the Hole for this hand.
There is a place in Rock Hill that sells and services top of the line chainsaws, mowers, weed eaters, etc.
They will tell you right of the bat, if you DID NOT buy from them it will be a 30 day wait...at least.
Buy from them....less than a week.
Drives me NuTs! smiley_whacko
I think I'd be getting major smiley_bull_stomp right about now.
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 15, 2016, 11:46:54 PM
i would go buy a new honda engine and install it setting in their front parking lot >:( ;D :D :D :D
but i have been accused of being smiley_dizzy smiley_whacko
this is still an option you know ;D
Boy, Poston...I'd definitely be taking this issue up with Kohler. They sure haven't made it very easy to get service on their products. Sorry for how this is going for you >:(
BTW, sand- I'd probably do something similar to your idea (swapping another brand in the parking lot) I tend to get unreasonably vindictive when companies give me the runaround like that. I absolutley refuse to buy anything from Sears, they have really gave me poor service on some appliances. And treated me like a fool while doing it. I offered to return a refrigerator to them on a dolly and flip it onto their showroom floor in their largest local store so all their potential customers could see how happy I was with their product ::)
:D :D :D thats why i dont have a husky chainsaw anymore >:(
Quote from: barbender on March 23, 2016, 12:18:56 AM
Boy, Poston...I'd definitely be taking this issue up with Kohler. They sure haven't made it very easy to get service on their products. Sorry for how this is going for you >:(
BTW, sand- I'd probably do something similar to your idea (swapping another brand in the parking lot) I tend to get unreasonably vindictive when companies give me the runaround like that. I absolutley refuse to buy anything from Sears, they have really gave me poor service on some appliances. And treated me like a fool while doing it. I offered to return a refrigerator to them on a dolly and flip it onto their showroom floor in their largest local store so all their potential customers could see how happy I was with their product ::)
I was told a story about a Sears tractor that was drove through the glass doors in the Muncy store in Pa.
The very unhappy buyer had the steering wheel fall off for the third time mowing his grass for the first time.
sears came to his home to fix it each time. Cops got involved. He got his money back. Backed his truck right
up to the doors and drove it right off the truck with no ramp and right through the doors. I also have had
bad dealings with them. I wont go back. Last buy I lost $300.00 on a battery.
i dont use sears anymore either :-\ they were who we counted on for everything when i was a kid but it seemed they started downhill when they quit the the big catalog ::) i still go to make them honor the craftsman tool warranty but other than that i dont mess with them >:( ::)
I am so happy to read that I am not alone at being vendictive when getting poor/neglictive service... No more sears for me either, no more delta.... or millwauki orbital sanders ( they really need to look into the dust collecting concept. ::) I have a list of places that I just won't go back because of the customer service is just plain pathetic.... The guy from Delta told me I should not be planing knots with my planer, that is how I had abused it. ::) I bought a Ridgid planer at a Home Depot opening, the Delta rep, he really wanted to help, but I told him I needed him a month earlier to do something,... Not now, also told him I was in the market for a band saw and a larger tablesaw.... :) Not to worry about it, I told him that Delta was not going to even be looked at. ;)
It is a very common practice for dealers to service their products/customers first. I understand the mentality, but innocent ones like Poston get caught. :-\
David,
I was gonna post in the Whatcha Sawin' ??? thread and ask you whatcha NOT sawin', but I didn't because that would be mean :D.
Yes Danny, that would have been like kicking a goat when he's down. Good thing you're not mean.
But funny......well to some folks. The others can just butt out. :D
Yeah Paul, I always try to be nice to David. He does not have much of a sense of humor, and I do not want to offend him ;D.
Ah.. Goats have thick hides. go for it Danny... ;D :D
He is a Real Good Kidd
Well I get up this morning, go get a little breakfast. Come back to the house and call Kohler.....this time I tell them like it is. The guy says they are working on it RIGHT NOW and will call me ASAP.
Makes me feel a little better but I aint counting my chickens before they hatch....just yet.
So I say to myself, "Goat....get on the FF and read a few post in your thread from your friends to get a little
'pick me up' encouragement for the day.
I start reading and :o :o :o :o :o :o.......
Y'all just keep this in mind, Ye who laughs last is worth 2 in the bush...wait a minute....that ain't right.
Ok...heres a good one:
The Wolf and the Dog agree, at the expense of the Goat which together they eat. (Basque)
So Y'all can just kiss my Grits!
smiley_roller smiley_roller smiley_roller smiley_whacko
I'm posting here to I can keep track of what's happening.
I hope you get your mill back soon, and think about a back up plan or another service center.
Jim Rogers
We may as well band the goat now too while we have him down ;D
I concur with the sears. They are staffed with bozos who don't know anything. One time I went there, the cashier wouldn't let me pay without giving him my phone number. So I made one up. Why do they need my phone number to buy a cheap claw hammer? I rarely ever go there. About the only thing I go there for anymore is to get tools replaced. I brought them a ratchet once, and they tried giving me a lesser one. It was the pro version and they wanted to give me the cheapest one. I said bull dinkle, brought it to another store, and they took it in the back and replaced the ratchet mechanism.
Keep positive it will all work out. Either enjoy the time off or if work is building up you may just consider an engine sawp. I didn't catch how many hours are on that engine. At least they are working on it.
Note to self: Call da Goat before buying anythang witha Kohler. :P
Do they know that they are messing with your livelihood? >:(
Hi folks.
I have been following this from the start and am somewhat disappointed that it has not been resolved already.
Being a small engine mechanic for the last too many years as well as a sawmill owner I feel bad for our friend Poston.
For the last 2 days I have been 300 miles from home on an update course for engines and power equipment.
We spent a morning with Mr. Kohler and I did pay attention to the instructor even more than usual.
Thinking that possibly I might find a little info to help out.
They do have 1 little problem with the computer on fuel injected models.
There is a sticker on the back of the computer and it covers a small vent hole on the casing for the computer.
We were made well aware that a pressure washer will easily allow water in the computer and issues will result.
This is only some new news to Kohler and will take some time to get this info to everyone that works on them.
Just a fer instance...we work on commercial equipment first regardless of where it came from.
At our shop Poston would have been invited to stick around while we at least trouble shooted the issues.
Getting the parts here in Atlantic Canada from our normal source of supply have not been easy but WoodMiser actually has been very helpful in these situations.
Regards Chris
Some dealers are great, some good and some doodoo.
Been following this with interest.
Hope it works out for da goat.
I'm thinking of calling Woodmizer and see if they can help by calling the Kohler Cooperate office.
This is really getting ridicules. >:(
I've just about completely turned on Kohler!
If any "high ups" with Woodmizer is reading this, the place I took the mill is:
Turf Care
Downs Road
Pineville, N.C.
704-554-0500
The Guys handling my engine is Shane and Lewis.
Thank You.
Woodmizer helped me many years ago when I had issues with a Lombardini engine. A call couldn't hurt.
I told you. Mine sat in the shop for three weeks to find a bad gasket to the shut off valve. Oh course Kohler would not pay for it. Motor was only about 5 months old. >:(
popcorn_smiley
boxingsmiley
21 days since the post was started :o poston i do have to say that i admire your patience smiley_clapping although i think the problem is with the service center instead of kohler i would have lost my mind smiley_dizzy (how much that is to lose is according to who you ask :o headscratch ) but i would have bought a engine and left that one with them before the end of the first week ::) some thing you should consider is your probably losing the cost of an engine per week at least thats how it works for me you can always fix the old one and keep it for a spare :) but maybe they will get it going by the end of the week :-\ :)
Here are some slabs I sawed to day.
Look close at the grain in the second slab.
Also this evening I sawed 24 Cedar logs. Notice the heart goes all the way to the edge.
Had a good day sawing.
:D :D :D
:D :D :D smiley_thumbsup
You poor ol' goat :(
I think I counted 28 cedar logs in your picture. :D
;D ;D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 23, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Here are some slabs I sawed to day.
Look close at the grain in the second slab.
So, I take it you've been picking "majic" mushrooms during your downtime, hmmm? ;)
Also this evening I sawed 24 Cedar logs. Notice the heart goes all the way to the edge.
Had a good day sawing.
:D :D :D
Boy, that is one quiet motor,good upgrade.
I think the goat needs to change pasture! fly_smiley smiley_whacko
David ol buddy ol pal i could bring my little Woodland mill down there might help you feel better to get some saw dust on the ground. And i could watch a pro work :D
At least your blades should stay sharp longer while sawing that kind of logs.
Lordy, he's starting to hallucinate. :o This needs to get resolved soon.
Had to go to Spartanburg, S.C. for my physical fitness training for the Forestry this morning.
At 8:15 am, got the call my mill is ready.
On my way.....will give details tonight. Thanks for hanging with me on this. :)
You will have to work overtime to catch up.
I have a Kohler that one of the valve cams wore down.... weaker and weaker till it wouldn't run at all. Replaced and works perfect now for many years.
I hope you wash it and wax it when it gets home
8) 8) 8) smiley_thumbsup
Gee whiz, this is like a movie that has gone on for too long. Can't wait for the ending! I gots ta know!
Glad to hear that you got word, "it's ready to go" Dave. 8)
smiley_bouncing_pinky smiley_bounce
Break time is over, put the coffee down and grab your gloves. :D
popcorn_smiley
He must be sawin'.
Ok guys......this is one of those endings to a story that can only happen because of a Yopper named Jeff.
If it wasn't for the Forestry Forum, there is no telling what some of our lives or blood pressure would be like.
I picked my mill up at around noon today.
The Tech came out and went over every little detail as to what they did.
Cranked the engine several times and engaged everything we could to put a load on the engine.
Beautiful sound.....Ol Orange Bud was singing like a bird. :)
Here is the work details and what they replaced:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6946.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6945.jpg)
Total bill: $620.91
Parts: $95.91
Labor: $525.00
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6944.jpg)
Now.....here is the kicker when the Angels appeared.
Marty Parsons, a member here on the FF who is a Woodmizer Tech, has been watching this thread from the get go.
He saw the struggle I was having.
He had his people call Woodmizer Indy's people and a Mr. Jim Brown (service manager ) called me and left his cell phone number for me to call him.
I called Mr. Browns personal cell phone and spoke with him. We talked for a few minutes about this situation.
He was VERY interested in my story even though I had just picked up my mill a couple of hours earlier.
He asked if I could hang on for a second....I said sure.
Within a minute, we had a 3 way conference call with the Kohler Cooperation service manager.
I told my story to him.
The route Turf Care took in fixing my engine could have been done a little different as it was explained to me.
To make a long story short....3 weeks will not happen again.
In fact, Kohler will even come to my mill if need be.
This is really hard to actually believe that Woodmizer and Kohler BOTH put aside what they were doing and got together within a few hours and listened to details from a customer that had a problem.
This just blows my mind! But its true.
I was assured that if I had anymore problems, Turf Care would get right on it.
I do have to say this. Lewis (the Tech) at Turf Care apologized to me for taking so long. I know.....what could I say.....he was really sincere and I thanked him and shook his hand.
Where to you even begin to thank people?
All my crazy friends on here helping to keep me calm... :D :D :D Thank you guys a lot....I mean it! :)
To Woodmizer and Kohler....you people are truly the greatest. You really have a BIG heart.
To Marty Parson's.....check's in the mail. :) :) :)
Your one heck of a friend Marty and I DID NOT even ask for your help....you took it on your own to step up and help me. Thank you very much Sir. I really appreciate you.
Again, if it wasn't for the Forestry Forum....sometimes a lot of us would be in a jam. smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb
I set the mill up outside to saw and enjoy the sunshine.....what a great afternoon. 8)
Sawed Red Oak, Pecan, Sycamore and Cedar.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6938.jpg)
I just can't say enough. :)
The End.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/goat-ears.jpg)
Yet another benefit to being a FF member!
When my mill had 30 hours on it, Milton CAT refused to warranty a defective exhaust manifold. I called WM Hannibal, and within a few hours, I got a call from Indy saying they had set up a charge account at HO Penn, and they would pay for the repair and then fight with CAT about the warranty. :)
That is great news glad to see it all worked out. taz-smiley
That is a good report. I have seen JB (Jim Brown) perform miracles before. He and his man Nick are top notch. Also thank you Marty for your "behind the scene" intervention. 8)
Now if that don't make ya feel warm and fuzzy on the internals I don't know what would... 8)
So, it says head showed sign of dirt ingestion..did they make sure that the air intake system is free of leaks? If they didn't you can spray something flammable around the intake system and hear if it's ingesting it and where. But I'm sure they would have found and fixed that during their testing.
Good for you goat man, WM stands up for their customers. 8) 8) 8)
I'm happy to hear that it finally got fixed, in the first place!! 8) But even more so, Poston, that you got some attention from WM management for an unacceptable service situation that their engine supplier left you with. How many companies would've just said "that's Kohler's problem"? I'd also second the notion of finding where the dirt got into the engine. Now, after this is all said and done, what is your favorite color again, Poston? ;D
My guess would be green. He wants $300 dollar for every little thing. :D WM Orange after that.
I'm guessing here, that you may not be accepting my offer to take that mill off your hands for 300$... :-\
I'll sweeten the deal with a few packs of sausages.... Smoke ham and "poutine cheese" saussice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10487/104_4643.JPG)
We got a deal there now ??? :) :)
I am happy to know that all is good with your mill now, ;)
My favorite color is still ORANGE.
.....and Frenchy, you sure are making it hard with those sausages. food6
And so the movie ends :D Is there a sequel ???
Since there was 1100 hours on the engine, is that considered the valve train service life? Or, is the dirt ingestion cause for the premature failure? I agree an air leak would be an issue to make sure is resolved. If an air leak is present, wouldn't the ECU read it as a lean condition and go "open loop" causing the oily plug conditions? So many questions.... :P
Yup, the solution only causes me to have more questions. I see no way for this to be "normal" wear and tear. ??? ???
Quote from: Magicman on March 25, 2016, 01:43:01 PM
Yup, the solution only causes me to have more questions. I see no way for this to be "normal" wear and tear. ??? ???
Good point Lynn. I can only say I have taken care of this engine and serviced it on time.
I just don't understand it.
I don't run a WM mill but wish I did !
Mr Marty is a good man I like reading his post and his helpfullness is top notch .
I'm glad things worked out for ya .
Bruno
That machine has been babied . Now Run it like you Stole IT ! your golden
Excellent ending to this saga!
Faith restored and loyalty rewarded - who's gonna star in the movie?
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 25, 2016, 05:49:20 PM
Quote from: Magicman on March 25, 2016, 01:43:01 PM
Yup, the solution only causes me to have more questions. I see no way for this to be "normal" wear and tear. ??? ???
Good point Lynn. I can only say I have taken care of this engine and serviced it on time.
I just don't understand it.
Its like a wet stacked diesel engine, just not being run at its happy place.
When you say serviced it on time, what service schedule did you follow?
Regardless, the shop could have diagnosed the engine in less than half an hour, but glad you are back up an running. Only another foot of snow then my mill awakens for the season.
David, I have a question about your air filters. Are they they kind that have a small diameter cylindrical filter inside a much large cylindrical filter? And if so, is the inner filter the same length as the outer filter? Here's why I ask.
I change my air filters exactly on schedule, and I always have replacement filters on hand -- replace the filters and order new ones immediately. After a couple of years I discovered they'd sent me the wrong inner filter -- it was way shorter than it should have been. Called Wood-Mizer and they sent me a replacement and said to send the other one back collect. I got the same one they'd sent before -- too small.
After some discussion with me, head office, and Kohler, it turns out that the smaller filter was the new standard. It would still plug into the opening inside the outer filter. I told them in that case I'd just return the too-small inner filter and could they refund my money. This caused a little consternation -- if you don't use the inner filter, you could ruin your engine. I explained that there was no point in using the inner filter, because it kept falling out of the opening -- every time I removed the outer filter I found the small one lying loose inside it.
The reason for the problem was that the original inner filter was supported by the end cover on the filter housing. The much shorter (and lighter) one relied on friction to hold it in place -- and the vibration from sawing was obviously causing it to work loose. When I explained this to Marv at WM Canada West, he bought some of the old style filters directly from Kohler and kept them in his stock room.
Apparently there was further discussion with head office and the original inner filters are once again stocked by WM.
In the dusty summers we have here, if I'd continued using the "new and improved" inner filter, my engine would probably be in the same condition as yours was.
Quote from: Brucer on March 26, 2016, 12:34:01 AM
David, I have a question about your air filters. Are they they kind that have a small diameter cylindrical filter inside a much large cylindrical filter? And if so, is the inner filter the same length as the outer filter?
This is a really good question Brucer.
What I have been doing since I got my mill is when I get plugs, air filters and oil filters, I take what I want replaced with me to the shop down the road that sells Kohler replacement parts.
That way I can match the numbers.
However......the last time I replaced the air filters.....I have outer and inner......they were the same. The only difference was the mesh screen around the inner filter was different.
But both filters fit like the filters that came on it.
I'll call WM and order from them this morning.
I do blow my filters out about every 3 days - 1 a week. I should probably do it at the end of each day now that dusty season is here.
Thanks Brucer.
.....update. Just ordered them and 2 B57's which I needed. Will ship Monday. :)
Whoa, what a saga!!! POSTONLT40HD: orange-we happy you are back to sawing 8). I for one was beginning to worry about your mental health! :D :D....and I myself didn't have any fingernails left to chew off. Will be checking my fingers filters first thing in the morning.... All the best, Rob.
Quote from: 78NHTFY on March 26, 2016, 09:09:11 PM
Whoa, what a saga!!! POSTONLT40HD: orange-we happy you are back to sawing 8). I for one was beginning to worry about your mental health! :D :D....and I myself didn't have any fingernails left to chew off. Will be checking my fingers filters first thing in the morning.... All the best, Rob.
:D :D :D
I have been following this thread intently, as I do with many diagnostic, problematic threads...I am so happy for you Poston, and are glad you got the attention from the parties mentioned as necessary. Especially good to hear you got the good from what started out as the ugly, meaning manufacturer support. I would have lost my mind in 3 weeks without my mill... Thankfully, you have other skills that helped fill your time. Marty Parsons is world class material, IMO....and humble....
Everybody's Happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlYlNF30bVg
Cleaning your filters too frequently can be as bad as not cleaning them.
Filters are designed to accumulate a certain amount of material before they start to restrict airflow. The dust that builds up on them acts as an extra barrier to very fine dust getting through.
Keeping the filters super clean all the time will allow the fine dust to get through the filters and into the engine. Letting the dust get too thick will restrict airflow which causes an excess pressure drop. That will start to drag dust through the filter. Somewhere in between is a sweet spot where the filters do their best job.
The same principle applies to fuel and oil filters. Replacing them too often lets extra grit get through.
Even though I get a lot of dust in the summer, I always change my filters according to the equipment manufacturer's recommendations.
I have to disagree with that. Especially with air filters. They are made to remove dirt
and are rated in micron size. If they fill up it's like running half choke. The extra gas
the engine will pull will wash the oil off your rings and that will damage your engine.
Same with oil filters rated in micron size. If it get restricted the by pass will open
and the filter quits working. I will stick with a very clean filters.
I agree with brucer. An air filters effectiveness increases until it becomes too restrictive. That's why trucks have restriction gauges on them. Usually tapping the fitter to loosen the bulk of the dirt is enough to put them back in service. I personally would never blow a filter out with an air hose.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 27, 2016, 09:39:01 AM
I personally would never blow a filter out with an air hose.
I blow and tap.
Caterpillar recommends blowing the filters out on the dozers we use to fight fire.
I am a believer if you just tap.....particles will become loose you can't get out and the engine will surely suck it in.
So again, I tap and blow. :)
******Glenn, the Goat vid is a hoot!****** :D :D :D :D :D
Hope you get back on line, and finally think I know what poutine is? and it looks good,, pretty much has to be a southern Canadian (french) concauction, :D but taters, cheese, gravy and meat works for me, and might make you feel better about the Kohler? not,, but good eatin' ;D
About filters, from a one-time maintenance systems professional.
Here's the short version if you can't be bothered reading the whole thing. On the other hand, reading the whole thing could save you some grief.
- Buy your filters from the equipment manufacturer.
- Replace or clean them according to the manufacturer's instructions.
- Ignore advice to the contrary.
Here's the long version.
Liquid filters are typically given a micron rating. Any particle larger than the rating will be blocked as the liquid passes through the filter. This plugs the filter but not very quickly. That's because the systems that use this kind of filter are closed systems – they don't pick up contaminants from the environment. The filters are designed so they will have very little pressure drop, even when partly plugged up.
Air filters work on an entirely different principle. They are usually rated by efficiency,
not micron size. The efficiency indicates what proportion of a standardized test dust is collected during the life of the filter. In these kinds of filters momentum causes the particles to separate from the air and get trapped in the filter mesh. The filters can hold a lot of material before they start to restrict air flow. These kinds of system usually includes a pre-cleaner that captures most of the contaminant before it can get to the actual filter.
The inner filter in the Kohler system is safety filter that is only there in case the outer filter gets damaged or bypassed in some way. Both filters are made from exactly the same material. Safety filters are smaller because they aren't meant to actually collect much material.
It seems intuitive that if a filter is significantly plugged it will be restricting the air flow into the engine. That's not the case though, because the filter only contributes a little to the overall pressure losses through the air intake system. Doubling the loss through the filter doesn't have that much effect on the amount of air flowing into the engine.
So, does it hurt to replace a filter sooner than necessary? Yes. Here's a quote from Donaldson Filtration Solutions.
"The efficiency of an air filter increases as it is used. As soon as the air filter is put into operation, it begins to remove harmful dust particles. As these particles accumulate throughout the filter media, the microscopic openings in the media become obstructed. This on-going reduction in the size of the openings helps the filter stop increasingly finer dust particles, thus resulting in a more efficient filter. As the filter continues to plug with contamination, the restriction to air flow will increase. Most engine manufacturers establish a maximum degree of vacuum in the air induction system that the engine can tolerate and still operate efficiently." Finally, most air filters for gas engines should
not be cleaned. Each time they are cleaned, their efficiency drops by as much as 40%. When the equipment manufacturer says "replace", that's exactly what they mean. Edit: a little clarification. Cleaning these kinds of filters will damage them, thus causing them to be less efficient at collecting dust.
On the other hand, manufacturers of diesel powered equipment often recommend cleaning their filters. That's OK, because their filters are designed to be cleaned without damage. When you clean these filters, follow the manufacturer's instructions! If they don't say to tap, don't tap (yes, I know, everybody does it – that doesn't mean they're right). Tapping a filter can embed dust in the element, or even tear the element.
It's perfectly OK to clean the pre-cleaner cup (not the filter) on a regular basis. This isn't a filter, just a centrifugal dust catcher.
- The manual for the EFI Kohler gas engine on my sawmill says to replace the filters.
- The manual for the Kubota diesel engine on my edger says to clean the filter with compressed air, not exceeding 30 PSI, from the inside out. It also gives instructions for washing if there's any carbon buildup.
- The manual for the Yanmar diesel engine on my JD tractor says to clean the filter by patting it gently (but not tapping it on a hard surface) and then using compressed air from the inside out. Again, there are instructions for washing.
Thanks... I'm learning something new.
The last two posts were extremely interesting reading for this boy. Good maintenance is my creed.
Brucer, thanks for taking the time to post some very good information. I have some questions:
"In these kinds of filters momentum causes the particles to separate from the air and get trapped in the filter mesh."
What does this mean?
"Finally, most air filters for gas engines should not be cleaned. Each time they are cleaned, their efficiency drops by as much as 40%."
Doesn't this imply you'd be better off starting with a dirty filter vs a new one?
"Buy your filters from the equipment manufacturer."
Kohler doesn't make the filters. Aren't equivalent after-market filters likely available from the same manufacturer?
The first mill I owned had a 34HP Kohler with a "filter minder"(I think that's what they called it) that I never saw pop out. I assume it was activated when a certain level of vacuum was reached. Was I changing the filter too soon?
QuoteOk guys......this is one of those endings to a story that can only happen because of a Yopper named Jeff.
If it wasn't for the Forestry Forum, there is no telling what some of our lives or blood pressure would be like.
Definitely agree with this statement. I posted a problem I was having with Oregon saw chains over on the chainsaw board and a member here who works for Oregon reached out made the situation right. Glad to hear your back in the dust!
In answer to some questions ...
Quote
"In these kinds of filters momentum causes the particles to separate from the air and get trapped in the filter mesh."
What does this mean?
Air is about 1000 times less dense than the dust it picks up. On a microscopic scale the filters look like a 3 dimensional labyrinth and force the air to twist and turn as it passes through. The much heavier dust particles tend to carry on in a straight line (rather than following the air) and they get trapped in areas where the air isn't flowing.
Quote
"Finally, most air filters for gas engines should not be cleaned. Each time they are cleaned, their efficiency drops by as much as 40%."
Doesn't this imply you'd be better off starting with a dirty filter vs a new one?
No. Cleaning this particular type of filter will damage it so it won't capture as much dust. I edited the original post to clarify this.
But since you mention it, when it comes time to replace an excessively dirty filter with a new one, in theory it would be better to have a tiny amount of dust spread over the new filter (see the quote from Donaldson). The problem is, how much, and how do you distribute it? So the message from the filter experts is, only change the filters when you have to.
An interesting side note: the major cause of contaminants getting past a filter (both air and liquid) is dirt getting accidentally brushed in when the filter is changed.
Quote
"Buy your filters from the equipment manufacturer."
Kohler doesn't make the filters. Aren't equivalent after-market filters likely available from the same manufacturer?
Absolutely. I made that comment for people who didn't want to read the whole post. The important thing is to be sure the filters truly are equivalent. If your equipment has a filter made by "XYZ Filter Corporation", and there is an XYZ part number on the filter, there's no reason not to buy identical filter from the manufacturer.
You can run into problems when the equipment manufacturer's have their own name printed on the filters. Who actually made the filter, and what is their own equivalent?
One pleated "paper" filter can look exactly like another and fit like another, but still be very different. The paper isn't actually paper, it's a specially fabricated material. It might take a Scanning Electron Microscope to show the difference, so how can you be sure? You have to talk to knowledgeable people and do a bit of research.
Quote
The first mill I owned had a 34HP Kohler with a "filter minder"(I think that's what they called it) that I never saw pop out. I assume it was activated when a certain level of vacuum was reached. Was I changing the filter too soon?
Maybe. I don't like the go/no go type of indicators. How do you know they're working? And what is the actual indication that the filter needs changing.
I once saw one where nobody was changing the filter because the "button hadn't popped out". It turns out the button wasn't meant to pop out. It was meant to reset the red flag that gradually rotated into a viewing port on the side of the device. When I noticed the device the viewing port was completely red and the filter was long overdue for changing.
There are some very good ones that give a visual indication of how plugged the filter is, and will hold their highest reading so you can check them even when the engine isn't running. These are the best indicators of when a machine needs new filters.
If your machine has a reliable one that was meant for use with your specific engine, that's your best indication of when to change the filters.
If you think the machine is due for an air filter change but the indicator doesn't show, take a look at the inner (safety) filter to see if there's any dust on it. If there is, you probably can't depend on the indicator.
I remember running a milk sock (milking pipeline filter) on the old bedding chopper's carb throat. It worked fantastic. ;D
Looked funny, lasted a good while and was a cheap replacement part as well. Those old Hondas are one fantastic engine.
We have a Norwood Mar4 mill with a Honda GX620 engine. Not sure when JR bought it but its been a while. When the engine
start to back fire on going to idle if we tap the filer till most of the dust comes out. That takes care of the back fire, but should
we replace the filer as its been the only filer its had. I need to check the manual to see what it says. This has been a good thread
with lots of good info.
Sawwood
The engine is now running worse than what it was.
I called the Kohler shop where they were suppose to fix it. They said they will not come out to check it and I would have to bring it back to them.
BS!
I then called Joe at WM Albemarle, N.C.
We talked about several options.
What I decided was to just order a brand new Kohler 26.5 hp engine.
When it comes in at the NC office, I will get them to bring and install.
I am gonna try to ship the 29 hp that has the problem to the Kohler Cooperation where these things are built and let them have a look at it.
Somebody HAS to find out what is going on.
Here is a video of the engine running.
Listen close and you can hear the surging of the RPM's and at the end it backfires twice.
I also had a voltage meter on the mill all day. There is no lose in power.
I will continue to use this "old popper" until my new engine comes in but it will drive you up the wall!!!! >:(
I just don't know anything else to do as the logs are piling up. :o :o :o
https://youtu.be/hJjjU6835O0
That is too bad. :(
Stinks,,, back in the old days,, I was a Kohler fan, these new ones seem to have too many quirks that can and seem to go wrong,,
Wow! That's a bunch of bull. I'd make it a mission to spread the word on that shop! Bad news travels fast..
I'm sorry to hear that David. I guess I'd be doing the same thing at this point.
BTW, as I understand it, the 29HP EFI and the 26.5HP EFI are the same engine. Kohler was over-rating the HP of those engines early on.
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on March 29, 2016, 08:52:21 PM
BTW, as I understand it, the 29HP EFI and the 26.5HP EFI are the same engine. Kohler was over-rating the HP of those engines early on.
You are correct Sir. :)
I'd fight to the end for a full refund from the "repair shop". I hope to u know who its an engine problem, and not an external issue...
It runs like a engine that is running lean to me. Hope you get it sorted out soon.
"I was assured that if I had anymore problems, Turf Care would get right on it.
I do have to say this. Lewis (the Tech) at Turf Care apologized to me for taking so long. I know.....what could I say.....he was really sincere and I thanked him and shook his hand."
David, I would have thought that Turf Care would have given your latest problem with your engine a higher priority based on the ordeal you have endured over the past several weeks. Regardless if this latest problem is an unresolved issue leading to the repair you just paid nearly $700 for or something entirely new and unrelated, one would think Turf Care would be beating feet to get to your mill.
We have three Kohler engines. The LT-28 has a 25hp, the Dixie Chopper mower has a 22hp (I think), and the JD Gator has a smaller one. They have all provided good service but after this horror story you have told, I hope I never have to take one to the shop.
Good luck with your new Kohler. I hope they are able to produce a harmonious ending to this saga. Hang in there.
Caveman
I guess I would ask myself why would I buy another Kohler (I own two of them). Why not go with a Honda or? If I were working one as hard as you I would have went Honda over the clone I went with. Who is number one in small gas engines for reliability, performance and customer service.
I too was a little surprised to hear you were going to buy another Kohler. What other options do you have? Can you get some other brand or is that it for an easy replacement engine?
Jim Rogers
April Fools
That stinks David. Stinks!!! :-\
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on March 29, 2016, 09:24:27 PM
I too was a little surprised to hear you were going to buy another Kohler. What other options do you have? Can you get some other brand or is that it for an easy replacement engine?
Jim Rogers
Its the only gas engine Woodmizer offers. If they have another, I was not told of it.
New 26.5 hp gas Kohler : around $2400 from WM
New 33 hp Yanmar Diesel: around $8200 from WM
What else can I do? Just tired of down time.
*****As it is now.....this engine is burning almost twice the amount of gas as it used to*****
I am seeing a 35 hp gas, but the brand is not indicated.
Quote from: Magicman on March 29, 2016, 09:54:25 PM
I am seeing a 35 hp gas, but the brand is not indicated.
I see the 35 hp on the WM website....its a Kohler.
A 35HP Kohler is an option on the LT40HD.
Those people at Kohler need to know if they mess with the goat, they're going to get the horn! I think they just found an easy mechanical problem to blame the issue on and never found the real problem. But it's easy for me to say that from here. I hope you get back to milling soon.
What. boxingsmiley..
Not sure what I would do. smiley_headscratch smiley_headscratch smiley_headscratch smiley_headscratch smiley_idea
Yup. I would tell Kohler where to put the engine. Get the diesel have WM put it on the mill.
Take the old Kohler put it out front of your place with a sign on it.
Turf Care can't fix this 25 horse engine.
Dave, here's something to try. Costs nothing. Find the wire going from the key switch to the ECU. Disconnect it from the switch and hook it to an external 12 volt source, like a jumper pack (other side to frame ground.). If the problem goes away, you have an electrical problem messing with the ecu, if not then it sounds like an ecu problem, or one of the sensors feeding the ecu. ..The backfire sounds like ignition, but the ecu fires the spark plugs and the fuel injectors. . Yeah, I see you hooked up a voltmeter but it will be too slow to show a momentary drop in voltage.
Quote from: pineywoods on March 29, 2016, 10:48:22 PM
Dave, here's something to try. Costs nothing. Find the wire going from the key switch to the ECU. Disconnect it from the switch and hook it to an external 12 volt source, like a jumper pack (other side to frame ground.). If the problem goes away, you have an electrical problem messing with the ecu, if not then it sounds like an ecu problem, or one of the sensors feeding the ecu. ..The backfire sounds like ignition, but the ecu fires the spark plugs and the fuel injectors. . Yeah, I see you hooked up a voltmeter but it will be too slow to show a momentary drop in voltage.
Good idea Piney
I would be hard put to buy another kholer. Old saying, " Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me."
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 29, 2016, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: pineywoods on March 29, 2016, 10:48:22 PM
Dave, here's something to try. Costs nothing. Find the wire going from the key switch to the ECU. Disconnect it from the switch and hook it to an external 12 volt source, like a jumper pack (other side to frame ground.). If the problem goes away, you have an electrical problem messing with the ecu, if not then it sounds like an ecu problem, or one of the sensors feeding the ecu. ..The backfire sounds like ignition, but the ecu fires the spark plugs and the fuel injectors. . Yeah, I see you hooked up a voltmeter but it will be too slow to show a momentary drop in voltage.
Good idea Piney
Just run a jumper form your truck battery.
Did it run like that right after you got it back from Kohler or take a while... What kind of gas are you using, try a different supply. I like Pineys idea to run a external power supply but it sure sounds like its starving for fuel or bad gas. If your using ethanol you could be getting some with 20%. Steve
Poston - this sucks with a capital S. I'm very sorry to hear your troubles and tribulations. I also believe you're a guy who doesn't just lay down and take it and I don't believe you'll ever give up. I hope the end to all this is near and I hope you'll get satisfaction from this run around with that "repair shop". This is not looking good concerning WM and Kohler and Kohler authorized repair shops. I put my money on you and WM.
Did you try changing the blade? ;D
My bet's on a loose drive belt.
POSTONLT40HD
Is the ECM sending out any codes ?
Sorry to hear this. I have been shying away from Kohler products for a while now. When I picked up my mill a couple weeks ago someone had dropped off a mill in front of the building over the weekend and just left the Kohler engine siting on the ground beside the mill. I think they tossed in the towel on that one. I hope this works out for you.
WOW I have just read this entire thread. I have always figured I would get the kohler replacement engine from woodmiser when my onan gives up the ghost, but will now have to rethink.
I've had the 25hp Kohler on my sawmill now for coming up on 2 year, come July and I personally have nothing but praise toward the engine.
I suppose with any product that there will be issues here and there.
Quote from: Chuck White on March 30, 2016, 04:48:46 PM
I've had the 25hp Kohler on my sawmill now for coming up on 2 year, come July and I personally have nothing but praise toward the engine.
I suppose with any product that there will be issues here and there.
And with those issues Woodmizer and Kohler should step up to the plate?/! Customer service!!!!
Thats my NO ADVICE
and please excuse the spelling and grammer errors; thats why I don't post.
Here is what went on today.
Got a call from Woodmizer, N.C......the engine I ordered will be at their place in about 10 days.
I asked them about getting the Kohler 35. If I bought this engine, it would come with no warranty. Why? Because I would have to change the wiring harness myself to fit my mill to the 35 hp engine.
I am assuming, I would have to take my mill to WM and let them put on the 35 hp to get my warranty.
Now....15 seconds after I hung up.....Kohler in Ann Arbor, MI. called and wanted the names and number from the folks at TURF CARE. It seems that Kohler pays these company's extra money to have a tech. come to your place and check a problem. This guy I talked to was really concerned that Turf Care blew me off.
As soon as I hung up with Kohler, I called Turf Care and told them I knew Kohler pays your company to come out to the field for problems. He got a little tongue tied and didn't know what to say. I told him he would be getting a call from Kohler.
As soon as I hung up with Turf Care, the Kohler people in Ohio called me. This was a super guy.
I explained everything that had been going on. He asked for all the serial number and model numbers on my mill and told me he is going to look into the warranty on this engine and he would help me and get back in touch with me.
Now.......within 20 minutes, a shop 6 miles away from me called me. This guys name in Ron.
He is a Kohler Tech at FORMAN'S REPAIR SHOP. Kohler had called him and asked him to call me.
He wants to see the work order from Turf Care and find out what they did.
He is coming out and bringing his lap top to plug up to my engine and see whats going on.
He asked me about the codes from the light. I explained that Turf Care has ordered me a new code light since my original light did not work. Ron said I would need to get that light. I said as soon as it comes in I will call you. Well.....low and behold, 15 minutes later Turf Care calls and my light is in.
I go to Turf Care and pick up my light....knowing Kohler has already called them. I was nice but they knew I was not a happy camper ( miss you brother). I paid for my light and he told me they are working on getting my money back to me I spent with them for a "band-aid". I said thanks and I'd call them in about a week.
Now....I have a friend that has an LT40 newer than mine. His Kohler engine went crazy doing the same thing about a 7 weeks ago. He took his engine and mill to FORMAN'S 6 miles away....the same people that wanna see my engine now.
My friends engine needed a new cam shaft. His is running like a brand new engine now.
The bad cam shaft was causing the surging and causing the fuel pump to act up.
***********************************************
This is what I have done today. I have talked to my customers today. They know what I am going through,
They are very supportive in having to wait.
Me, Kohler, Woodmizer and Forman's really want and need to know what is going on with this engine in case another member or another customer with a piece of equipment has the same problem. One way or another, we're gonna find out.
I toss and turn at night thinking if I just install a brand new engine, I'll never know whats wrong with the engine thats got a problem.
The good thing is I can still saw but have to listen to the surge and popping and backfiring.
I'm mean DanG....I didn't see a Crow within a half mile of my mill all day from the backfiring.
Ron at Forman's will touch base and set up a time to come hook up his computer and read codes.
I'll let Y'all know how things work out. :)
I was just on the phone with a guy who had the same exact thing happen to him. Figure the odds of that... ;D
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on March 30, 2016, 07:48:13 PM
I was just on the phone with a guy who had the same exact thing happen to him. Figure the odds of that... ;D
;D
The Bright side is with all that backfiring the inside of your muffler is going to be Bright and shiny...
Hello,
I have some comments you can take them and use them as you please.
- To rate one issue with Kohler on an open forum is great. If you look at every Kohler engine and think WOW i remember one post and there was an issue I would never own one is not correct. WM has sold many of these engines. We have been selling these engines on the Wood Mizer mills and we also sell zero turn lawn equipment with the same engine. Not seen many issues. I could also most say zero issues. We had one last week and I posted the issue it had. You can read the post. I would say they are a great engine. These engines have great power and work well.
- I have been following this post and helping when I can.
- It is unfortunate for David to have these issues and he has been good about posting what he is going through. I am sure there will be a happy ending! It will help others in the future. That is what this forum is all about.
- Kohler tech team is top notch. They are always willing to help the dealer network. We just purchased the program so we could look at the information the ECU sees. Never needed it.. Kohler recommended we purchase it about 3 years ago. I told Roger that we would purchase the program when we started seeing issues with these engines. The issue with the muffler we had last week. I thought it would be something other than the muffler so we purchased a fuel pressure gauge and the program for a lap top. We will be prepared if we do find an issue that needs more attention in the future. Still did not need it. We just kinda lucked into finding the issue.
- WIth out having the Red light on Davids mill working it is hard to diagnosis the issue over the forum, phone or providing help. The proper term is MIL light or you can call it a check engine light.
I hope this information helps others.
Marty[/list]
Quote from: MartyParsons on March 30, 2016, 08:07:24 PM
Hello,
I have some comments you can take them and use them as you please.
- To rate one issue with Kohler on an open forum is great. If you look at every Kohler engine and think WOW i remember one post and there was an issue I would never own one is not correct. WM has sold many of these engines. We have been selling these engines on the Wood Mizer mills and we also sell zero turn lawn equipment with the same engine. Not seen many issues. I could also most say zero issues. We had one last week and I posted the issue it had. You can read the post. I would say they are a great engine. These engines have great power and work well.
- I have been following this post and helping when I can.
- It is unfortunate for David to have these issues and he has been good about posting what he is going through. I am sure there will be a happy ending! It will help others in the future. That is what this forum is all about.
- Kohler tech team is top notch. They are always willing to help the dealer network. We just purchased the program so we could look at the information the ECU sees. Never needed it.. Kohler recommended we purchase it about 3 years ago. I told Roger that we would purchase the program when we started seeing issues with these engines. The issue with the muffler we had last week. I thought it would be something other than the muffler so we purchased a fuel pressure gauge and the program for a lap top. We will be prepared if we do find an issue that needs more attention in the future. Still did not need it. We just kinda lucked into finding the issue.
- WIth out having the Red light on Davids mill working it is hard to diagnosis the issue over the forum, phone or providing help. The proper term is MIL light or you can call it a check engine light.
I hope this information helps others.
Marty[/list]
And one motor would be minimal?
Replace the motor, whom ever pays!
Wooodmizer or Kohler!
First I really feel sorry for the trials you are going through with the engine on the blink. It is super frustrating and also hurts in the pocket book.
I have had one question for a while. Being stationery why not an electric mill? No contest in reliability when compared to a gas mill. Expenses would also be much less. Production would be higher. Even if all you have is single phase it wouldn't take much to run a 15 HP electric off a rotary phase converter.
Good post Marty.
I have not once been mad about this situation.
I wanna learn and want others to learn what the problem is.
Kohler and Woodmizer both are working very hard to help me and I appreciate it.
Let it be known I am ready to buy another Kohler Engine if this one can't be fixed.
I have not turned against Kohler....I working WITH Kohler and they ARE helping me. This is good! :)
It'll all work out.....Kohler is a good engine. smiley_thumbsup
Just in case I miss read something, or not read something; how old is the mill and motor?
Quote from: Larry on March 30, 2016, 08:27:47 PM
I have had one question for a while. Being stationery why not an electric mill? No contest in reliability when compared to a gas mill. Expenses would also be much less. Production would be higher.
Good question Larry.
I am stationary. I looked into a 3 phase before ordering my mill. Over $6,000 to get 3 phase run from the highway to my mill in the shed.
As I am set up now, I can saw up to 14 foot.
Anything over 14, I pull the mill outside the shed.
It gives me 360° movement for equipment etc. which I do not have in the shed.
Now, IMO, selling a gas or diesel engine with sell much quicker than a 3 phase motor.
Some potential customers back out of an electric band mill when they get sticker shock :o :o :o :o as to what 3 phase will cost.
And who knows, I might wanna go somewhere and saw a log somewhere, someday. ;D
it appears that turf care is the problem here. but maybe you will get it fixed soon :) kohler will probably fix the problem with turf care too ;D i know that the big corps do care about dealer service back in 93 or 94 me and my wife were on vacation in dodge pickup that was under warranty and the oil pressure light came on so i cut it off and spent the night in campground and called the local dealer the next morning and they would not check it unless i made an appointment and the earliest one they had was 4 days >:( i called the dealer that sold the truck and told them the problem and he said dont even check the oil just drive it (in some colorful language) :o :D and ask for the dealers name and town so i told him ??? then i did find a speedy lube type shop who checked oil pressure with a manual gauge and said it was just the sensor so we finished the trip with no problems :) but about 3 months later we had the truck at our dealer for service and steve came out and ask if i remembered a certain dealership and i said yes and he said they were no longer selling dodge products that they lost their dealership over that oil sensor :o :o :o the thing is our dealer is no better but he said that there was something about a stranded motorist that no dealership could put off over just a few hours ??? i dont know if its that way now or not and if was all dealers or just dodge. :) but turf care could be the one losing out here in the end if they dont get it together :)
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 30, 2016, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Larry on March 30, 2016, 08:27:47 PM
I have had one question for a while. Being stationery why not an electric mill? No contest in reliability when compared to a gas mill. Expenses would also be much less. Production would be higher.
Good question Larry.
I am stationary. I looked into a 3 phase before ordering my mill. Over $6,000 to get 3 phase run from the highway to my mill in the shed.
As I am set up now, I can saw up to 14 foot.
Anything over 14, I pull the mill outside the shed.
It gives me 360° movement for equipment etc. which I do not have in the shed.
Now, IMO, selling a gas or diesel engine with sell much quicker than a 3 phase motor.
Some potential customers back out of an electric band mill when they get sticker shock :o :o :o :o as to what 3 phase will cost.
And who knows, I might wanna go somewhere and saw a log somewhere, someday. ;D
Sorry for getting in the way.
Quote from: tnaz on March 30, 2016, 08:46:01 PM
Just in case I miss read something, or not read something; how old is the mill and motor?
The engine has about 1200 hours
The mill is a 2010
Crap. I didn't know the "sequel" would show up this quickly :embarassed:
I've been biting my lip saying this, but my small engine repair guy that I've dealt with for 30+ years told me last year to stay away from the newer Kohler engines. At the time I was looking to repower something besides a sawmill. I know that's sounds like "here say", etc, but that is what he told me, and I have bought a lot of equipment from him over the years. Let's hope you end up with a "good" one or another choice :(
I currently have 5 Honda small engines. One dates back to 1995. All run flawlessly. Just an FYI.
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 30, 2016, 09:17:42 PM
Quote from: tnaz on March 30, 2016, 08:46:01 PM
Just in case I miss read something, or not read something; how old is the mill and motor?
The engine has about 1200 hours
The mill is a 2010
Thanks
All engines will eventually need repair.....ALL OF THEM.
My opinion of an engine is only as good as the repair guy fixing it and what he says.
Again....this is just my opinion.
I do my home work and know and talk to a lot of engine repair guys from different shops I know in my town and across the state.
I personally think Kohler is one of the top engines along with Honda and Kubota.
I'm sticking with my guns on this problem and Kohler also. I may not stick with Turf Care again :D :D :D :D
.......but I'm sticking with Kohler. :)
A sticking goat. :D :D :D
I'll be interested to find out what is wrong with the engine and if the EFI system actually tells you anything. I'm still undecided if I like the idea of EFI on small engines....
I'm not sure why this thread invoked this thought, but I'm fearful that even the good (larger?) companies are making cheaper and less reliable products these days. We have purchased Kubota, Deere and Honda products in the past few years that are of lower quality than the models they replaced. Less R&D, cheaper materials, and poorer Quality Control. That said, I have nothing but praise for my Woodmizer mill thus far. ;D
Hope you get to the root cause of the problem without much more grief. smiley_thumbsup
When I bought my first mill (LT40 manual) I had a choice of a 25 HP carbureted Kohler or a 28 HP EFI Kohler (for $400 more). I couldn't afford the diesel options :(. I ended up buying the 28 HP engine (with some misgivings, but I had 30 days to return it if I wasn't happy).
That engine was great. Started in any kind of weather, never let me down. A year later I sold the mill and bought a hydraulic LT40 with the same engine. Now, one week shy of 10 years old, the second mill is about to roll over to 2500 hours.
I have only had three problems with the engine. Two were mechanical problems relating to the fuel supply.
The first problem was caused by a blocked fuel return line (which was my fault because I changed the connector in the return line). The local WM dealer couldn't help, so he put me through to Indy. The WM engine gurut couldn't help, so he gave me the contact info for the Kohler distributer here in BC. Even he wasn't able to help, so he gave me the name of a local repair shop. That guy told me to bring the whole mill over. He quickly discovered the blocked fuel return, fixed it, and the engine was fine.
The reason none of the experts could diagnose the problem was that nobody had ever experienced the problem before. I changed something, didn't even consider that it might cause a problem, and never mentioned it.
The second problem was a pinhole leak in the suction tube in one of my fuel tanks. It was so tiny that it only caused problems in very hot weather.
The Kohler distributor was great. He guessed I was having fuel issues and walked me through the whole fuel system. He also e-mailed me the complete service manual.
The third problem was a burnt out fuel pump. That happened at 2340 hours and I didn't need any help in figuring that one out.
I would not hesitate to buy another Kohler EFI engine.
For those of you who suspect that it might be the fuel system and not the EFI, keep this in mind. The only fuel supply issues that are strictly mechanical involve the fuel getting to the fuel rail that feeds the injectors, and the surplus fuel returning to the tank. That's basically the fuel lines, the connectors, the fuel pump, the fuel filters and the pressure relief valve.
Everything to do with the timing, the fuel mixture, and the governor is controlled by the EFI system. The diagnostic light (MIL) will give you a complete set of diagnostic codes. The codes are visual, two digit numbers which you read by counting the number of flashes. No external computer necessary. The WM engine manual has a listing of all the codes.
What this basically means is that if the light isn't working, you have a real problem with troubleshooting.
I bet it could very well be the cam shaft. They had it running good at the shop.
I'm betting they adjusted the valves and the cam was bad. After adjustment the rough
cam wore down fast going back to running bad again. Just my $0.02.
Heres the lasted update.
I started having problems with the Simple Set about the same time I started having problems with the engine.
As we all know the engine is still not operating properly.
My simple set started displaying the EO3 Sensor on the screen. At times it would not work at all.
I am wondering if the engine and Simple Set problems are related in the electrical system.
I ordered a new brain for the simple set, installed it.....it gave me the proper codes that the old brain did not give.
I thought well, problem solved. Nope....Now the Simple set is even worse. The cable is good, checked it with a meter. The Encoder light blinks properly. The Simple Set will work in manual mode but as soon as I enter a thickness....the EO3 sensor is displayed. Turn the engine off and turn it back on.....if I'm lucky, the Simple Set will work but not stop where it is suppose to. The thicknesses I program into it will change sometimes on its on....and all the while the DanG engine is skipping away. Drives me up the wall!!!!! >:(
Now, heres the good part. Turf Care repair shop was suppose to fix my engine to begin with. Their work did not solve the problem. Kohler talked to another Authorized repair shop (Forman's) and they were to make a house call to my mill this afternoon to work on the engine in my shed.
Well this morning, Turf Care Repair Shop calls me and evidently Kohler had a word of prayer with them. The top manager called and said their TOP tech would be at my mill this Monday. He said if they could not find the problem, Kohler would send someone from the Big House.
I am about ready to trade the mill or strap it on my chest and board an airplane. The engine is gonna blow up one day if its not fixed.
I think it has a problem nobody has ever seen before.
Personally I'm thinking the simple set and engine are related. But something new always happens that changes my mine.
Hopefully betweem woodmizer,kohler,turfcare and foremans, you will get some relief soon.
I have run kohlers on everything from rototillers to welders and aircompressors, but all one cylinder and carbed, no efi at all. I expect I will need to replace the onan on my mill eventually and sure hope the woodmiser replacement kohler is carbed.
Have you tried operating the SS without the engine running?
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on April 01, 2016, 06:45:15 PM
Have you tried operating the SS without the engine running?
Yes....same as with the engine running.
This afternoon I even went and bought a new ignition switch from O'Riley's. I did this after talking with Woodmizer.
I installed the new switch and it changed nothing. I thought it was worth a try to see if I had a glitch in the switch.
Pineywoods....I liked your idea about running a jumper from the ECU to the battery.
The Kohler tech asked me to PLEASE wait until they come. :)
Just want to let everyone know, Kohler and Woodmizer is not taking this problem lightly.
They're in this with me and are keeping in touch.
We're all working together. :)
Poston,
You are to be commended for your good attitude through this process.I just can't imagine the level of frustration that you are going through.I am well aware of WM's track record as well as Kohler's.Having two companies trying to get to the bottom of your engine problem must provide some re-assurance.Without your great sense of humor things would be a lot worse.We are all pulling for you.A goat like you doesn't come along just everyday.
Since the SS does the same thing with the engine off I don't see how the two problems can be related, unless the engine is somehow putting out large voltage spikes and damaged the sensor (you've already replaced the "brain). As you said, the trouble with your SS started two years ago, long before you starting having engine trouble.
Quote from: 47sawdust on April 01, 2016, 07:16:55 PM
Poston,
You are to be commended for your good attitude through this process.
Well I am getting pushed to my limit some what.
I'm sure Joe Whitley at Woodmizer, N.C. has probably had enough of me. :D :D :D :D :D
But honestly is a great guy. He has a talent for helping people hold things together.
I vent to him about things that drive me up the wall but he always seems to make things better and the most important thing.....he takes time to listen.
I found this today in our S.C. Forestry News Release......the last one made me laugh. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/Fun_Facts_copy.jpg)
Here is hoping that you get out of the Dumps very soon. :P 8)
Poston...I feel for ya brother...with these additional issues mentioned, you can help but wonder if they are related... Takes me back to the not do quite, but basics... Power and grounds to all the players, measured via voltage drop measurement...best of luck!!!
Quote from: bkaimwood on April 01, 2016, 08:35:30 PM
Power and grounds to all the players, measured via voltage drop measurement...best of luck!!!
None.
Ya, Goat man you have more patients than I. By now I would have all the parts of the Kohler and setworks in a pile outside somewhere.
I would have a new diesel and accquset2 on the mill by now sawing.
Or a LT70 in the barn. Good goat man. 8)
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 01, 2016, 09:17:28 PM
By now I would have all the parts of the Kohler and setworks in a pile outside somewhere......
.......in the snow. :D
This may seem odd but seems like you have checked everything else. Just throwing spaghetti against the wall here. Have you had anybody check the electrical system with an oscilloscope to see if you are getting clean power? Just thinking that the alternator maybe generating artifacts or RFI that is affecting the ECU's of the engine and SS. I'm thinking checking the output of the alternator for a clean sine wave, then the output of the regulator for noise, and lastly the input to the SS.
RickV makes a valid point. I spent a lifetime working on computers and I can tell you for sure, they all will do weird things if there is electrical noise on the power line. Try pulling the big wire loose from the back of the alternator and run on just battery, see what happens (or doesn't happen). Voltage regulator most likely internal in the alternator. Repair shop not likely to have a scope...
Just how much Voltage goes thru those power lines on your property ?
RickV and Pineywoods.
I am really impressed at what you have suggested. Y'all know things I haven't even imagined.
But with respect to both of you....Kohler ask me not to do anything else to the engine.
The simple things I have already done have not changed anything.
In fact, the repair shop wanted me to take the engine off and bring it to the shop.
I put my foot down and said no!
I don't want anyone to suggest that I have done something to make the problem worse. :D
RickV, I have never given an engine a colonoscopy..... :D I would not know which end to start on. :o :o :o
Poston,
J'peux t'aider mais je'n pourrais qu'le faire qu'en Français.
;D :) smiley_smug01
Quote from: isawlogs on April 01, 2016, 10:16:35 PM
Poston,
J'peux t'aider mais je'n pourrais qu'le faire qu'en Français.
;D :) smiley_smug01
Thanks Frenchy. :)
I have never heard French exhaust. smiley_furious3
Post, I understand what you are saying completely. It's unlikely but one test you could do is pull your car close to the mill, put the radio in AM mode and tuning slowly in the upper portion of the band and listen for loud interference signals, real loud buzzing. It's worth a shot. I found an insulator on a power pole about a block away that way. The noise it generated had everyone on my end of the neighborhood tv and cordless phones wiped out. Like I said unlikely but plausible.
The back of my mind still worries about an erratic ground somewhere. :P
MM, I agree, something electrical. it effects motor and SS
It would be easy to just unplug the alternator for a test run.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 01, 2016, 09:17:28 PM
Ya, Goat man you have more patients than I. By now I would have all the parts of the Kohler and setworks in a pile outside somewhere.
I would have a new diesel and accquset2 on the mill by now sawing.
Or a LT70 in the barn. Good goat man. 8)
i had a 3 1/2 hp briggs on a push mower years ago that was REALLY hard to start and didnt run right when you got it going after 2 years and countless trips to the shop i made one small adjustment (actually not so small) to the engine with a sledge hammer and it never bothered me again ;D :-[ but that was over 20 years ago and my temper has calmed a lot now :)
I have a friend that had a chainsaw that was always a royal pain to start. smiley_devil Yup, he shot it with a 45. smiley_devil_trident That did not make it start any easier, but at least he did not have to pull that rope anymore. teeter_totter
Quote from: Magicman on April 02, 2016, 08:16:47 AM
I have a friend that had a chainsaw that was always a royal pain to start. smiley_devil Yup, he shot it with a 45. smiley_devil_trident That did not make it start any easier, but at least he did not have to pull that rope anymore. teeter_totter
Magicman i did the same thing to a old homelite saw with my 270 that was the of the trouble for me :o
:D :D :D glad to know i aint the only one ;D :D :D :D
I wouldn't ever shoot my engine but being a Firefighter......well....... bon_fire
I did the sledge hammer shot to my cell phone on the front sidewalk of the Verizon store.
I had been have issues with it and like 4 wasted trips to get it fixed. Told them I had enough.
The salesman oh you can't do that........Wrong words....lol
I got a new phone in just a couple minutes.
I have never had any problems since . I think there may be a note on my account.... LOL
Dave
WoW has this post enlightened me . . We did miss the throwing spaghetti at the wall.comment. Food is a much better topic
IF and WHEN the Tech comes Monday afternoon, I will post s few pics of the surgery.
.......if I can stand it. smiley_curtain_peek
I pray that the Forum is still around "When" my Kohler starts acting up, so I can reference all this information. Maybe I should print this thread and stick it in my File.
David, the video you posted said a lot. Gonna be a real interestin problem. The fixit instinct is very strong in me. I take it as a personal insult when a piece of machinery just refuses to behave. Probably something wierd like the trouble I had with my homemade remote control on my lt40. At times it would just go nuts, turned out to be park a tractor with engine running close to the mill. Hot engine with turning fan blades looks like an infra red control... ::)
Pineywoods, just the fact you figured that Remote Interference out is amazing. We are all pulling for the goat. Hope his a happy fix too.
Years ago I had a lawn mower give my problems.
I was so mad at it that I wired th governor wide open fill the tank with gas and drained the oil.
I started it up and got away from it . Would you believe it ran the whole tank of gas out running wide open and northing happened. it went to the junkyard anyway. My Dad just shucked his head.
I wish I was there, diagnostic kit in hand...always found wierd stuff intriguingly.. But sure sorry it is at your expense!!!
Quote from: outpost22 on March 30, 2016, 09:18:14 PM
I've been biting my lip saying this, but my small engine repair guy that I've dealt with for 30+ years told me last year to stay away from the newer Kohler engines.
Just as another FYI Kohler is THE forefront of EFI in small engines, they know there stuff.
Being able to teach old dogs new tricks is front and center, the problem industry wide. Very seldomly do I walk into a shop that even has some of the basic tools, let alone diagnostic equipment.
Most shops are perplexed by a simple 2 stroke engine!
Quote from: rasman57 on April 02, 2016, 05:34:48 PMWe are all pulling for the goat. Hope his a happy fix too.
Oh no, are we gonna have to
fix da Goat. :o I'm thinking that a couple of rubber bands will fix dat
engine Goat. :D
Quote from: Magicman on April 02, 2016, 09:52:00 PM
Quote from: rasman57 on April 02, 2016, 05:34:48 PMWe are all pulling for the goat. Hope his a happy fix too.
Oh no, are we gonna have to fix da Goat. :o I'm thinking that a couple of rubber bands will fix dat engine Goat. :D
running-doggy
You can run,but you can't hide. ;D
:D Rubber bands and goats reminds me of a story on the farm.
The farm momma had a pet goat named Ace. He was a pain in the butt. He'd always get up in the mangers and crap his little pellets in the cow's feed. He wouldn't learn to stay out of there. We painted him orange one day with the paint sticks used for marking cows (he was a mostly white goat). Of course, this cracked momma but we thought it was funny as all get out seeing a bright orange goat wandering around. Others who stopped at the farm laughed too, so we didn't figure we were too out of line. We were young teenagers and being stuck on the farm made your sense of humor and longing for any kind of entertainment kind of immature. One day the vet came around and the boss figured if Ace was castrated he would calm down some. So we were up in the parlor and we saw the vet walking down to the heifer barn and we started chuckling a little. A minute later we heard a scream. A few seconds later we heard another scream. Darn goat screamed like a little girl. I guess I would sound like that too, after some things were crushed. :o Anyway, we laughed like crazy over that. I feel embarrassed about it now, but stepping back in time it was the highlight of the week on that stupid farm. Pretty sad, huh? :-X Worse part is, that stupid goat never changed his behavior.
Quote from: Ox on April 03, 2016, 09:50:38 AM
Worse part is, that stupid goat never changed his behavior.
Hard headed. :D
Hello,
Well I thought this would interest you. We purchased a Kohler program last week. This would help diagnosis any problems like this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~11.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~12.jpeg)
You can see everything the ECU sees and even see how many hours are logged into the engine. How many hour it was at Idle. How much time was at load over 80% and the list goes on and on.
Pretty cool.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~13.jpeg)
Here is the program plugged into a Kohler 26 hp. And No this engine was not a problem engine. It was a test to understand how it works. We even put some codes in to the system just to see what would happen. We unplugged the O2 sensor and unplugged the TPS. ( Throttle Position Sensor) This set a code and we erased them to see how it works.
I am kind of like bkaimwood. I like the difficult stuff.
Have a great day!
Marty
That looks like a nice diagnostic tool for these futuristic engines nowadays. I guess this is the way the world works: either keep up or stay out of the way! I don't think I'll ever completely embrace computerized engines. They're great when they're working properly but when something goes wrong it's increasingly difficult to fix without the proper tools. The old simple engines were able to be repaired by almost anyone. Now you almost have to be a specialist to fix them. Oh well - time marches on.
I like this Marty.
I'm glad you got the software. How long does the cord reach? :D
I bought a new John Deere Zero turn. Just as soon as I found out that it had a computerized engine I sold it.
I'll keep my older garden tractors. I work with PLC's and computers all the time but I really dont like them in
my tractors. If i had a choice they would not be in my trucks eather. I like things I can work on.
Sweet, Marty...doing what you are doing experiment wise is a great thing, especially with diagnostic software. Manipulate inputs and see how your readings change, and aside from the obvious, there is one really good reason for doing so...too many techs assume you are seeing what the computer is seeing...in other words, its like an old school breakout box, and you are directly reading what the computer is seeing or reading. However, there are software systems, usually manufacturer specific, that show you what the computer THINKS it is seeing. In other words.... Computers decide what action they are going to take, based upon input signals, which simplified, and turned into a binary code, plugged into a prewritten chart, or algorithm, and converted into what the output is going to be, or the "answer" to the input. So, in the mentioned situation, you are essentially seeing a skewed value, skewed by the computer itself. This situation is very rare, and is most likely to apply to a very small number of European manufacturers... Typically highline or exotics....useless trivia, courtesy of bkaimwood...
I like David's "long cord" idea. :D
Quote from: Magicman on April 03, 2016, 09:01:53 PM
I like David's "long cord" idea. :D
pc_smiley___________________________________________________________________________ smiley_chop
Whatcha reading Marty?
Hello,
I hear you all. Every time you call the tech line when you think the computer is the problem they ask you. Did you check the mechanical issues first? Did you check all electrical connections? The engine that prompted me to go ahead and order the diagnostic program turned out to be a defective muffler causing the O2 sensor to go wild. Not sure what exactly happened inside it. All the tubes were rotten inside. So I guess it was messing with the mixture reading. I called the owner Saturday for a check up and he said it working like new.
The response about want to hold onto the old. Wasn't there a song about an old hippie?
Honestly these engines have been trouble free.
The Industrial Equipment WM4000 does have a phone hook up so the Engineer can call the program up and see exactly what is going on. Pretty cool.
I would bet it could be done with this engine if you had the correct wires.
Marty
I am very much interested in the outcome of this problem. I'm the go to guy for the dozen or so woodmizers in my local area. Several of them have kohlers..Only problem I have seen so far was a dead fuel pump, an easy fix...
As I have the same engine, I am also very interested in the outcome. Of course my number one concern is that David gets back to sawing soon. ;)
I just got out of a Forestry meeting and now back at home.
The Tech from Turf Care said he would be calling me at 1:20pm today and sending someone who nows what they are doing.
I'm waiting to see. ::)
There is another thread going on the forum about a Nissan powered Wood Mizer with issues.Marty Parsons has been involved with both.I'm really curious to see both these mills running and how the problems are solved.This forum really is unique.
Thank you Marty and especially you,Jeff.
The Tech ( Scott) showed up at 2:45.
He truly is a nice and knowledgeable guy.
I guess sometimes bad is a good think......why?
He asked me to go through my normal routine as to how I start my day.
I checked the oil first and then cranked the engine.....let it warm up for 5-7 minutes.
The engine idled like a brand new engine. ::) Wouldn't ya know it. ;D
He then hooked up my new code light....works perfect.
Then we turned it off and plugged the computer with the Kohler software up to the engine.
Cranked the engine and let it idle to read numbers on the computer screen.....all seemed to be fine.
Then he said "engage the blade"...... :D :D :D
POW!!!! Skip!!!! Surge!!!!.......The smell of gas was unreal! I laughed and said "that's my boy". :D
This is the worst the engine has been yet. So I'm glad it showed its colors today. :)
All the grounds were checked...OK
He checked for dirty power......OK
However, on the computer read, out the TPS (throttle position sensor was going nuts).
So....he called his people to order, overnight shipment a TPS and a ECU.
If its one or the other at least we will have the parts in hand tomorrow. He's pretty sure its the TPS though.
I asked them were they hard to replace....YES! The reason is, its a simple switch out but everything has to be reset by the Kohler Software and Computer after the replacement for it to run correctly.
So he said he would have to check with his manager to see if he could come back and replace the parts since I told him I AM NOT BRINGING THE MILL BACK TO TURF CARE.
During this time he did call and leave a message with the Kohler people as to what was going on since this engine has been moved to top priority.
I will give an update hopefully tomorrow evening if we get any progress tomorrow.
Thanks Y'all for hanging with me.
****Note: The 26, 28, 29hp Kohler engines are suppose to operate at 3600-3700 rpm's. Mine was running at 4,000 rpm's since I've had it. The engines are built to run up to 4500 rpm's but it will shorten the life of the engine over time running this high. The RPM's are controlled by your throttle cable. Just be careful adjusting the cable. This info was told to me by the tech.****
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6985.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6982.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6983.JPG)
Fingers crossed, Poston...nice update post as usual...
::) ::) popcorn_smiley
Hello,
Engine total hours are 1238.
Engine hours trip? 16 hours
I think if you add all the totals above this you would get the 16 hours.
Just thinking. Is there a total of time the engine ran above 4000 RPM. Looks like 2.4 hours of the 16 hours.
M
Quote from: MartyParsons on April 04, 2016, 07:35:06 PM
Is there a total of time the engine ran above 4000 RPM. Looks like 2.4 hours of the 16 hours.
M
I have no idea Marty. :)
I would be nuts by now. dadgum you, Charlie! arg-smiley
Respectfully, you are already nuts. So, that would make you double nuts. I am sure that is not a pretty sight, even in the frozen, glaciated North.
I think you are way past the would be part. :D
:D :D :D :D
See? I told you.
Quote from: thecfarm on April 04, 2016, 08:48:05 PM
I think you are way past the would be part. :D
I'd be nuts if I didn't believe this. :D.......but if I am, I have an excuse. Read the OP. ;D
So, David, while you're waiting for someone to do something, now you can play with test your new MIL (that's the indicator light you finally got).
If you've got Wood-Mizer's engine manual, there should be a list of diagnostic codes in the back (plus instructions on how to interpret them).
Looking at the list of codes, I see Code 22, Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). "Unrecognizable signal being sent from sensor (too high, too low, inconsistent)".
The expected response to this code is: "A 'limp-home' operating mode occurs, with an overall decrease in operating performance and efficiency. Fuel delivery is based upon the oxygen sensor and five mapped values only. Rich running (black smoke) will occur until a "closed loop" operation is initiated. A stumble or misfire on hard acceleration and/or erratic operation may be exhibited."
Sound familiar?
The book also gives a number of possible causes for the "unrecognizable signal", besides the TPS and the ECU.
This has me worried enough to purchase a tach and see what my Kohler is running at. I wonder what a 38 hp kohler should run at under blade engaged condition?
Quote from: bates on April 04, 2016, 11:22:36 PM
This has me worried enough to purchase a tach and see what my Kohler is running at. I wonder what a 38 hp kohler should run at under blade engaged condition?
This is an example of a very good reason to have a tach! I have NEVER liked running any engine with out a tach. Yes it personal preference but it is a mitigating personal preference and it only costs a few dollars.
i think tose rpms will be in your manual and I would have to check mine to be 100% positive but i think no load high idle is 3800, loaded 2800 to 3200 and idle is 1200 to 1600. I will check to make sure. Marty may find if faster than I can.
I was close. high idle no load is 3750, Idle is 1600 to 1800, loaded 3200.
That from the service manual that my local Kohler service rep gave me.
I find best and most constant torque rise between 2800(max torque) and 3200. 3000 to 3100 is sweet spot.
My engine is the CH745 EFI
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/sm_24_690_01.pdf
I am checking but prelim data indicates similar spec for the CH980 EFI
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/tp_2580.pdf
Marginally different High idle no load is 3600, max torque at 2400 so a bit longer in the leg. operating load range is 2800 to 3000
Thank you BB. I need to get a decent manual for my kohler.
Quote from: bates on April 04, 2016, 11:53:44 PM
Thank you BB. I need to get a decent manual for my kohler.
I added links the the service manual PDFs from Kohler forthe CH745EFI and the CH980EFI
Bad tps sensor makes sense...tps sensors typically go bad in the range that they are used, varied, or scrolled most often...in car engines, this would be at idle, or more likely just off idle/tip in, or cruise...this usually results in a client concern of hesitation, bucking, sputter...it does kinda match your symptoms, Poston...except one of the tps's busiest or heaviest range useage in your case is idle and wot, with wot being your problem area. Providing they have the problem circuit nailed down, there are likely only 3 causes, and the tech will have 2 of them in his arsenal... The sensor, and the ecm...if that don't fix it, they may look into the wiring, and or overlay a new one. Sonlong as the sensor has good power and ground. Hopefully you'll be cookin' by COB today!!!
Not trying to start anything. But why didn't they do this test when they had the mill for three weeks. I have been following this from the start as I have the same motor .
I like the tach idea anyone has done this yet if so what kind and where did you mount it.
I just tried to post that same question but Klicker beat me to it. What the heck were they doing for all that time?
Quote from: Klicker on April 05, 2016, 07:06:15 AM
Not trying to start anything. But why didn't they do this test when they had the mill for three weeks. I have been following this from the start as I have the same motor .
I like the tach idea anyone has done this yet if so what kind and where did you mount it.
That's because turf care has no idea what they're doing. :D :D :D :D :D :D
I can only tell you what he explained to me.
When the mill was in the shop, the code light was sending the code that nothing was wrong but obviously something was wrong from just good ol common sense.
Since the code light was not working, he hooked up the software from the computer.
It showed air leakage around a valve. Replaced all that.
He ran it for about 15 minutes....not sawing....and the engine ran fine.
Now after I have worked the engine and it is now acting up again, the computer says the TPS is bad.
Now from what he has gone through on the engine.....
The TPS works the other week but not yesterday.
The code light always says things are fine.
The engine ran fine for me and him for a total of 45 minutes the other week but now dies when I engage the blade.
He seems to think its the main brain.....ECU.....which controls everything.
Turf Care just called me.....just got off the phone.....the parts will be here in the morning since they were ordered so late yesterday after he left my place.
So this is all I know. :)
I thought of it about 400 posts ago, but didn't want to make light of you issues. Now that your tossing everything and the kitchen sink at it...
Did you check the fuel tank to make shore you didn't spill any gr*ts in there? smiley_curtain_peek
Quote from: WmFritz on April 05, 2016, 08:56:24 AM
I thought of it about 400 posts ago, but didn't want to make light of you issues. Now that your tossing everything and the kitchen sink at it...
Did you check the fuel tank to make shore you didn't spill any gr*ts in there? smiley_curtain_peek
The manual says if you add 1 table spoon of dry Grits per 5 gallons of gas your board footage will increase by 45% per hour with maximum engine output. I only have 1 helper 3 days a week. smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb
Couple things I wonder about.
Computer says the tps is eratic. When the engine mis-fires and slows down, the governor will jiggle the throttle..
Hope swapping the ecm fixes the problem, but in view of your simple set experience, I'm doubtful.
Keep in mind, the computer readouts are not full-time.
the computer samples things one at a time, no idea how often.
This is indeed a whole new generation of sawmill gremlins... ;D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 05, 2016, 09:33:05 AM
Quote from: WmFritz on April 05, 2016, 08:56:24 AM
I thought of it about 400 posts ago, but didn't want to make light of you issues. Now that your tossing everything and the kitchen sink at it...
Did you check the fuel tank to make shore you didn't spill any gr*ts in there? smiley_curtain_peek
The manual says if you add 1 table spoon of dry Grits per 5 gallons of gas your board footage will increase by 45% per hour with maximum engine output. I only have 1 helper 3 days a week. smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb
Does it matter if they are white or yellow?
Quote from: Klicker on April 05, 2016, 07:06:15 AM
Not trying to start anything. But why didn't they do this test when they had the mill for three weeks. I have been following this from the start as I have the same motor .
I like the tach idea anyone has done this yet if so what kind and where did you mount it.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.msg1377743.html#msg1377743
Got it from the Kohler dealer here in town and took about a half hour to install. made by Tiny Tach and was cheaper through Kohler. Think it was like 49 bucks CDN.
The Main Brain thing. smiley_dizzy
You can get the software and cable fom kohler to do your own trouble shooting without wasting time trying to read the flashing light
http://www.kohlerengines.com/press/article.htm?articleId=EFIDiagnostic2010
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on April 05, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
You can get the software and cable fom kohler to do your own trouble shooting without wasting time trying to read the flashing light
http://www.kohlerengines.com/press/article.htm?articleId=EFIDiagnostic2010
The software is $299.99.
I've got a tiny tach on my Onan; works for me.
Jim Rogers
PS. got it from WM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 05, 2016, 01:41:06 PM
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on April 05, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
You can get the software and cable fom kohler to do your own trouble shooting without wasting time trying to read the flashing light
http://www.kohlerengines.com/press/article.htm?articleId=EFIDiagnostic2010
The software is $299.99.
Let's just round that off to $300.00.
Quote from: Raider Bill on April 05, 2016, 04:19:45 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 05, 2016, 01:41:06 PM
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on April 05, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
You can get the software and cable fom kohler to do your own trouble shooting without wasting time trying to read the flashing light
http://www.kohlerengines.com/press/article.htm?articleId=EFIDiagnostic2010
The software is $299.99.
Let's just round that off to $300.00.
Yea up here it would have to be 300 cause we aint got pennies!
Quote from: Klicker on April 05, 2016, 07:06:15 AM
Not trying to start anything. But why didn't they do this test when they had the mill for three weeks. I have been following this from the start as I have the same motor .
I like the tach idea anyone has done this yet if so what kind and where did you mount it.
Although I am not there, sounds like David has what is commonly referred to as a "no code driveability" in the auto industry. It means just like it sounds... There's an obvious operational problem, but the processor is either not fast enough to catch it, or it does not happen long enough, or long enough outside the computer's fault parameters to set a code. This is where a good oscilloscope, or a good software program is what's needed to diagnose the problem, coupled with (more importantly), a tech that knows how to use it. I'm by no means, standing up for the shop, just to be clear...I would have flipped my lid after a week...hats off to David for his patience... I am patient... David is a saint!!
Quote from: bkaimwood on April 05, 2016, 08:04:48 PM
[..I would have flipped my lid after a week...
I have flipped my lid several times....but not having much hair on either side, no one paid me any attention. :D
Gram told me life was slower down south...
lol
I didn't sit around today waiting.
My encoder showed up at 10:30 by UPS. I got it installed.
I also took the up and down motor off and took it to the shop for new brushes. They didn't stock them......so, I ordered new brushes from Woodmizer. They will be delivered at 10:30 in the morning. Then to the shop to put the motor back together and put back on the mill.
By then the Tech should be close to showing up with TPS and ECU.
temps will be in the 30's in the morning. 50's by lunch....the warm up will be just in time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6989.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_6988.JPG)
So thirty two day since this started. I would have thought with parts coming it would have been worked on today. In my day job of computers I would have been fired if I kept a client down this long. I feel your pain and respect your patience's.
I know Kirk....32 days IS a long time. But if I don't get all the problems fixed before I go.....
I'm gonna take them with me. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/Hurst.jpg)
Now there's a frugal Mortician! ;)
Guys, it's time to stop changing parts and fix it !! This isn't rocket science and their is no reason that continued use of the computer is necessary to resolve this problem !! The MIL has pin pointed the cause of the problem to be in the TPS circuit. IMHO it's time to look at each piece and test each piece of the system independently with meter in hand. All test procedures are covered in the free online service manual. Even the ECM can be reset (ECU Reset Procedure) / (TPS Learn Procedure)pg. 36, of the service manual, with out the computer !! This could be as simple as one of the pins in a connector has been pushed back while putting a connection back together and the computer is not going to find that one for you..
Sorry about the rant POSTON .
This will be a long story short. Worked on the mill for 3 hours with the Tech.
Turns out its the Throttle Position Sensor.
The little brushes had gone bad.
You could "jar" the sensor and change the engines performance.
Had to take the air filter and everything under it off to get to it.
Here's the new TPS installed. Its the new black plastic circle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_7001.jpg)
He checked the ECU.....it was good.
So everything was put back together. The throttle was reset, the RPM'S set to 3750, and the idle was set to the right specs.
I cranked the engine.....it was a sound different from what I had been listening to. It was like a brand new one and very responsive.
It seems the TPS brushes had been breaking down for a while. I can remember the engine losing power for a split second or maybe the idle being off but everything correcting itself just as fast as something would go wrong. The engine would run for weeks before it would do it again.....in fact I'd forget about it.
Now that everything was correctly put back, then it was time to crank it and saw. I could tell the engine was not bogging down when I tried to saw faster. The TPS would give the correct fuel and the power was back as it was suppose to be. I guess this went down hill so little at a time that it wasn't noticeable until 33 days ago.
Here's what it sounds like now.
https://youtu.be/VdbIm-qDxLE
The Tech actually stayed there while I sawed hard for 45 minutes to an hour. Everything was then rechecked and all was fine. Unbelievable the difference now.
As it was told to me, this EFI came out in 2010. After time things are gonna begin to happen sooner or later.
Most engine repair shops are not even set up to work on these EFI engines. It takes a laptop, software, someone who understands it and how to reset the engines to tell it things. If your spark plug number starts with RC....its for carburetors.....the EFI engine plug number starts with XC. Both plugs should end in YC.
This stuff is way over my head. :D
I guess when the brusheS start to go out on a motor, it starts out not working every once in a while. Same thing as with the TPS on my engine.....it started out going down hill until it gave up. How was I suppose to know about the brushes in a TPS? ::) The Tech said this is the first problem with a TPS he has seen.
Has far as I know, I don't owe anything else. He is to give Kohler a call and let them know what he found.....they are wanting to know.
This Tech tries to keep up with the latest things. He said Stihl has 4 new chainsaws coming with EFI on them.
Huqvarner has a saw coming that only uses their mixture of fuel. You have to use their mixture to get it to run properly. The world has gone nuts!
Tomorrow.....business as usual with sooooo many logs to saw for customers.
I'll let ya know how it saws tomorrow.....done been bit once so I'm gonna be careful before I 8) 8) 8).
*****Just a note....yes the doors are off the blade wheel and the shield are off the sides. Completed an alignment on the mill this morning, tweaked my Simple Set and Encoder, put the up and down motor back on with the new brushed in it, new B57''s, greasing and so on. Just didn't have time to put everything back together before the Tech got here. This was the first time he has seen a Woodmizer run outside and in. He was very glad to see what things do.******
Great news!!
Thank you for sharing this thread.
Dan
Good news, and hope it stays strong for ya. I've never touched a saw mill but this thread had me P o'd to point of never owning a WM or Kohler.
Still think I want give one a try?
Good luck,
Terry
Quote from: tnaz on April 06, 2016, 06:14:46 PM
Good news, and hope it stays strong for ya. I've never touched a saw mill but this thread had me P o'd to point of never owning a WM or Kohler.
Still think I want give one a try?
Good luck,
Terry
I don't think its Woodmizer or Kohler.....I think its the knowledge of working on EFI engines has not been fully understood yet using laptop computers to carry on a conversation with an engine. :o :o :o
There and than some!!!! That makes you all smile.
Running perfect, ain't she? Fantastic! I'm relieved for your sake. This has been an informative thread and thanks for keeping us all up to date. Whew. What an ordeal.
I'm very happy for you. Just wish it could have come together sooner, the suspense was giving me ulcers :-*.
I can honestly say, I thing IMO, when it cams to this Kohler Engine, the FF members learned something, I KNOW I learned something, Turf Care and Forman's Repair learned something, Kohler and Woodmizer learned something and the Tech (Scott) learned something.
This is what its all about. :)
VERY well said. :P
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 06, 2016, 06:30:57 PM
I can honestly say, I thing IMO, when it cams to this Kohler Engine, the FF members learned something, I KNOW I learned something, Turf Care and Forman's Repair learned something, Kohler and Woodmizer learned something and the Tech (Scott) learned something.
This is what its all about. :)
I gained a good bit from this; the main point is you are a Gentleman, with a much better attitude than I will ever have.
Hallelujah!!!! Congratulations!!! Time to saw like a madman now...
That's great news David! Glad you're back up and running like new. 8) 8) 8)
So the issue with the SimpleSet turned out to be the encoder? Did you really even need the new controller board?
Glad you finally got it lined out, I was afraid we would eventually have to start calling you postal instead of poston and have to send you commissary money. lol
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on April 06, 2016, 07:30:39 PM
Did you really even need the new controller board?
Will find out later when I have time to compare the 2. But for now, I gotta get to sawing.
Quote from: tnaz on April 06, 2016, 06:14:46 PM
Good news, and hope it stays strong for ya. I've never touched a saw mill but this thread had me P o'd to point of never owning a WM or Kohler.
Still think I want give one a try?
Good luck,
Terry
I would hope so, WM went to bat for the goat, and got results. As mentioned, this was the first TPS failure, it's got to happen to somebody. I bet any manufacturer would be happy with just one failure.
You better get 10 more TPS things for backup. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I was wondering about the band wheel covers :).
Glad its fixed for you. Now lets hear about these efi chainsaws!
Quote from: onorato on April 06, 2016, 08:31:03 PM
Glad its fixed for you. Now lets hear about these efi chainsaws!
And WOODMIZER is now making LAWNMOWERS too. Just ask them. :)
Quote from: WDH on April 06, 2016, 08:29:48 PM
I was wondering about the band wheel covers :).
I knew it was coming. :D :D :D
If ya can't own a Goat....ride a Goat. :D
They've been making mowers for decades.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 06, 2016, 08:51:35 PM
They've been making mowers for decades.
Well I didn't know it. Goats don't know Lawnmowers.....thats competition.
Great news that you are back up and sawing again. Sorry about the long wait which would have really hurt a lot of small businesses in the pocket book. But I guess its like momma said: "patience is it's own reward". You handled this situation much better than almost all of the people I know and with a greater degree of diplomacy. Now it time to get it cause daylight is burning.
I'm glad your Kohler is running like it should. Like you said, David, It has been a learning experience for all of us.
I can tell you were excited, the little ballerina goat kick you did at 40 seconds in gave it away :D :D :D :D oz_smiley oz_smiley oz_smiley oz_smiley ;D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 06, 2016, 06:01:38 PM
This Tech tries to keep up with the latest things. He said Stihl has 4 new chainsaws coming with EFI on them.
Huqvarner has a saw coming that only uses their mixture of fuel. You have to use their mixture to get it to run properly. The world has gone nuts!
No Stihl has 1 EFI concrete saws that's already out, and the Husqvarna Oil Guard system has been out for almost 4 years. The oil guard system uses a special oil that is recognized by an optical detector, to determine a mix or no mix situation, yet can be disabled to use regular mix oils.
Most shops will not encounter Kohler EFI engines, for it s a small market. As a Kohler Dealer and Master Tech, the only time I have touched a Kohler EFI has been at service school, the market is just not present in my area. Its primary market is in large scale commercial applications (mainly grass cutting) to compete with the diesel market.
From a shop perspective many times we get asked to fix an engine uncoupled, thus no means to test it under load, and other times an engine attached to a piece of equipment we have no idea how to operate. In such cases all that can be done is to run to basic unloaded specs.
Never ever, regardless of what you are running start tossing parts at it for a solution. I don't even want to know how much money spent in parts that were not required.
Hello,
Glad we got to hear the happy ending .
Marty
I watched the video, and over the engine purring, I could hear your smile all the way to here. 8)
Congratulations, but you ain't got time to be on on the Forum, you're supposed to be sawin'!
QuoteI don't think its Woodmizer or Kohler.....I think its the knowledge of working on EFI engines has not been fully understood yet using laptop computers to carry on a conversation with an engine.
That's the thing alright.
I'm guessing a sawmill would be hard on the throttle compared to most applications because the load is changing all the time. A bit like the mechanical governor on an excavator, the constant surging as the load comes on and off wears them out too. Running on a governor will be opening and closing the throttle all the time, hence the faster wear. I would have thought they would be solid state, with a magnet and Hall affect, so no mechanical wear? But even then, connections inside the modules can go bad.
Chasing problems in a computerized system like that take a whole new knowledge set. Being able to read the diagnostic codes for a start. The on-board computer knew it was getting inconsistent readings from the TPS, it just had no easy way to tell you.
Modern cars are the same. They don't actually work on Voodoo, it just seems like it if you don't have the diagnostic and test tools. But now you can buy a cheap and relatively generic module that plugs into the cars diagnostic port, and displays all the engine info on your smart phone. But yeah, it's not like working on a 60s vintage car that you could pretty much tune by ear :D
this could have all been avoided if they just used the old style mechanical governor like they have used for the last 100+ years ;D >:( ::) computers are for taxes and forestry forum not sawmill engines >:( but im afraid they are here to stay and i want to thank poston for for the amount of trouble (at least its hard for me) to keep us informed in detail from start to finish on this problem :) i saw alot of lumber and my mill is a 2000 model so i know i will likely have one of those engines in the next couple of years but i will run my old b20 till nothing is left to patch to ;D :D :D :D and poston you are one patient peckerwood i would have give it the sledge hammer tune up by the end of week 2 :o :D :D :D
I agree with Sandsawmil14, above. Nothing wrong old fashion governors. But realizing that engines and most other stuff are purposely built to be more complicated either to eliminate the shade tree mechanics or make them more green, a person has to keep up with technology or hire somebody who has. This thread has certainly made me realize that. Just wondering, do diesel engines have all these electronics?
Quote from: MartyParsons on April 06, 2016, 11:19:26 PM
Hello,
I was telling my grandson about this story.
Marty
Good 1 Marty. This makes me smile as much as getting my mill fixed. :)
Poston,
Thanks for the great post, I think my mill is identical to yours, but only about 460 hours. I never heard of the TPS before but I am sure that Marty will explain at his Owners Day on April 22. Keep on millin'.
Glad you got it fixed. 8)
That was quite the ride.
Jon
Looks like the grandson liked the happy news too. ;D That is funny. I would not want to get on the wrong side of him.
The smell of irony is just wafting all through this thread......that one of the FF's most notable Characters has had to endure such a character building process! You are probably od'ed on character by this point. :D
Glad it's over, hope you are better for it! I know a lot of folks have learned a lot from your miss-adventure. Thanks for letting us tag along. 8)
Now I will do the dance! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
We sawed around 1400bf today. Started early because I couldn't stand it.
Not one hic-up from the engine or the simple set all day.
Just flip the auto-clutch and she takes off in the sparkle of an eye.
Had a good day. :)
Real good news!!!
David I am very happy for you. I want to commend you for doing a great job of communicating the facts and staying positive through the whole time it took to solve the problem . I know I learned a lot from flowing this post . Thanks Sir .
I wanted to be sure it was really fixed before I offered my congrats. You are truly a gentleman for handling this the way you did.
I have been too busy myself to read, but it's good to read that all is OK with your mill. Thanks for sharing your pain as it certainly will help someone else along the sawing way. :P smiley_thumbsup
Wow, the saga finally ends. ;D I too admire your patience through all of this. I am a semi retired Briggs master service tech, we have not yet seen EFI in the field but know it's coming on the Vanguard series like it or not. It's a combination of fuel and power management demands by the OEM's plus tightening emission standards. Carburetors and mechanical governors are old technology, just won't cut it in a lot of applications. Thanks David and Marty for sharing this with us, it was a great learning experience.
Can we add a /Fixed to the Title of the thread or do you want to wait? ;D
The soap [As the blade turns] :D :D :D :D :D
Happy for you Goat man.
Quote from: Sixacresand on April 07, 2016, 07:54:54 AM
... Just wondering, do diesel engines have all these electronics?
New ones do :(.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 07, 2016, 11:30:48 PM
The soap [As the blade turns] :D :D :D :D :D
Happy for you Goat man.
:D :D :D :D
Quote from: Mooseherder on April 07, 2016, 10:51:39 PM
Can we add a /Fixed to the Title of the thread or do you want to wait? ;D
Da goat is fixed???? :o :D
Just like when you loose or misplace something . Its always the last place you Look . . .
Glad your mill is back up and running again.
Thanks a bunch for posting. Your patience and generosity is having ripple effects hundreds of miles away. Only 1 local mill with an efi motor, but I wrench on it frequently. Owner has no engine manual, so I'm gonna download one, thanks to the ff and a great bunch of guys.
Been watching this all along , glad your sawing again . Good attitude !
Quote from: Mooseherder on April 07, 2016, 10:51:39 PM
Can we add a /Fixed to the Title of the thread or do you want to wait? ;D
Lets see . . . this is two days after the big fix. No time for fixin' titles!
I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet that Kohler is making up for lost time.
Poston might have his helper refuelling NASCAR style, while he swaps out blades.
...... and betcha Jake will see sawdust in Dave's ears when the Project is on next week.
Happy Milling POSTON!
Someone mentioned the word fixed and da boy left town. running-doggy
Quote from: Mooseherder on April 07, 2016, 10:51:39 PM
Can we add a /Fixed to the Title of the thread or do you want to wait? ;D
Its done Glenn. ;D
I did manage to saw these 16 foot Red Oak boards the last 2 days with the engine running strong.
I had a couple of guys helping which made the job and the new sound of my engine more enjoyable. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_7011.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24625/IMG_7010.JPG)
I can fix a goat. Seems to calm them down. I've never seen a fix male goat wear a purple skirt. ;D
Willie Nelson? ???
Quote from: barbender on April 08, 2016, 08:27:25 PM
Willie Nelson? ???
Willie Nelson has more teeth than this guy did. :D :D :D :D
I was also going to ask if Willie Nelson was a customer of yours. I am glad they mystery has been solved and that you are sawing again.
Caveman
I'm glad you got this resolved.
You have far more patients than I do. I feel like sometimes we are the R&D department for some of these companies.
Quote from: barbender on April 08, 2016, 08:27:25 PM
Willie Nelson? ???
My first thought was, "Lordy, the stress of that engine problem really took a toll on poor ole' David" :D
While I do feel sorry for the engine . Good ole $300 David you never have to worry about .
Ol Poston is so happy to be back up and running, he hired a Willie impersonator to follow him around singing "blue skies, shining on me- nothing but blue sky, do I see" ;D
Quote from: barbender on April 09, 2016, 08:41:51 AM
Ol Poston is so happy to be back up and running, he hired a Willie impersonator to follow him around singing "blue skies, shining on me- nothing but blue sky, do I see" ;D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
You probably even smell better when you are happy. :D
Once fixed, goats do settle down some! :)
Been following this thread sporadically.
All I can say is Yippeee!