Just wanted to start a thread talking about different cuts used to swing trees, different face cuts, snipes, etc. Basically different techniques about saving out wood. Everyone is welcome to post their stuff and I hope you will! I'd like to get some new ideas shakin!
Since the question of snipes were brought up I thought I'd start there. Made a few videos the other day.
This first one I'm laying the tree downhill and I wanted to save out as much as possible. I put the snipe on the stump to get the butt on the ground asap. Didn't even bust up the pulpwood in the top!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzjah3K4_tE&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzjah3K4_tE&feature=youtu.be)
This next one I'm laying uphill. The snipe is on the butt log. I wanted it to stretch out as much as possible by keeping it on the stump instead of hopping off. Yes I have a dutchman in there to bring it around. The tree was leaned out towards the camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOBIdYVAcs&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOBIdYVAcs&feature=youtu.be)
This is another downhill lay. Snipe on the stump again to get the butt down asap. The pull came from the stump if any were wondering. Slow it down. You'll see it. I took a pic of the butt log to prove it if ya want to call me a bullshitter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PoFnGOrIX8&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PoFnGOrIX8&feature=youtu.be)
A conventional face with a snipe on the stump. Laid this one out somewhat sidehill. Snipe kept the stem moving instead of stalling when the face closed. It was easier to throw a conventional face in this tree from the start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SdLGRtYa8&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SdLGRtYa8&feature=youtu.be)
Sorry I'm too tired to figure out how to post the youtube window right in the post. Just had to use the links for now. Will have to figure that out.
Nice video's! I'm starting to learn a lot of new stuff and can't wait to try. Thanks for posting. Once I had one giving me trouble and somehow I got it to go almost 180 with a series of small wedge cuts. Not sure how I did it? :o work safe!
Thank you sir! I forgot to mention this is a clearcut although I'm sure its not that hard to figure out. In a select cut my backcuts might be a little different so I could have more time to retreat. Throwing the trees out into the cut lets me hang around the stump more. Theres no threat of branches being tossed back at me.
I'm not sure what the advantage of getting the stump on the ground ASAP is, can you explain in what kinds of situations that is an advantage?
The narrow notch seems as though it would increase the chances of fiber pull, since it closes early and pulls the hinge apart, rather than breaking the hinge from bending. In most of my cutting - at least if it's for saw logs, I use an open face notch. This keeps the butt attached to the stump as long as possible to maintain steering all the way down, and since it doesn't put much pull on the hinge, less chance of fiber pull. Fiber pull isn't a concern when I'm cutting firewood, but I tend to follow the same procedure anyway.
I don't do much clearcutting, so there is no clearing to "throw the tree out" into. I guess I can see situations where getting the butt away from the stump could help if I need to get past the stump when pulling the log out.
Getting the butt on the ground first allows the tree to lay out and have the top hit as softly as possibly in order to save out the logs. The narrow face breaks the hinge quickly and gets the stem free of the stump. With a conventional face sometimes the top will hit first and bust up the last log especially if there are multiple crotches involved and when laying a tree downhill. Its easier to bust a tree up when sending it downhill because it is falling farther and gains momentum. Getting the butt on the ground slows that process and allows the tree to "stretch" out. There are definetely instances where you want the tree to stay attached to the stump as long as possible. Also the snipe usually forces the fiber pull if any from the stump. I don't clearcut much either. Maybe one or two jobs a year. Thats not really the point of it though. My face cuts would be the same in a select, but my backcut might be different so im not chasing the hinge all the way till the end.
Interesting. Thanks. Not something I see folks doing around here. THe vriation from region to region is interesting.
this is interesting. I learned the game of logging way which there is a lot less variation and more about the "formula". that's what I love about this job. it never gets old because EVERY tree is different. I cut in flat ground all the time so that takes some of the variation away but obviously not all. sure looks like youre a good cutter. would love to carry your gas can someday and watch all day!!
OH Logger - I grew up north of Fostoria, OH on the edge of what was once the Black Swamp (and is now some excellent farmland) - so I know what you are talking about when you say "flat".
I also went through all 4 of the GOL training classes, as well as their "storm damage clean-up" class. Very interesting. One of the things I valued most about it was that the instructor took the time to make sure people understood the "why" of what they were doing as well as the "how". It really helps having that understanding when you run into something different and need to adapt the techniques.
It's an art for sure. GOL is a good place to start and a good place to learn safety and learn safely. Some of us just survived out there long enough to learn some skills. When I think back on how I used to thrash around in the woods I shake my head....
Great thread Bitzer!!
You guys have probably fell more timber in one good day than I have in my whole life- but I do have an observation ;) Red pine I have felled, if you don't make the hinge so it breaks, it tends to split the butt. That is to say, you don't want the tree attached to the stump when it hits the ground.
I Know in the US your timber is a lot bigger than ours here in the uk, but what cut do you guys use for a forward leaner, her we put our wedge cut in, then bore through the middle leaving a hinge then cut diagonally down the back. this is to stop any splitting from occurring!
Sounds like a bore cut variation. Allows you to make your hinge the way you want before you release the tree.
Quote from: cbutler703 on March 26, 2016, 02:02:01 PM
I Know in the US your timber is a lot bigger than ours here in the uk, but what cut do you guys use for a forward leaner, her we put our wedge cut in, then bore through the middle leaving a hinge then cut diagonally down the back. this is to stop any splitting from occurring!
That sounds a lot like what I do, except I don't cut "diagonally down the back". Once I've made the bore cut, I'll either just cut straight out toward the back till it releases, or cut most of the way, leaving a holding strap, pull the saw out and make sure the area is clear, then nip the holding strap from the rear.
So what does the diagonal cut do?
RHP - great videos and excellent explanation on your part. You are a true professional. Thanks for starting this thread, I am learning a lot.
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
Thanks boys! I will dig up some more pics this week. Maybe make another video or two. I've got a good one for head leaners somewhere.
Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
So you bore cut everything? You ever think about why? I cut all hardwood too. Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production. I did several years ago. Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing. You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump. Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood. Not knockin what you do. I mean think about other options in the best possible way. It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to. Whether in the face or the back cut. Food for thought like I said. Not raggin on your style.
honestly I chase white oak, walnut, makes up over 60% of my work, I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft which adds up very quickly times 20-30 trees a day and yes it a pain shavin butts flares down all day another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps. But that's me we all do things differently I just finished a contract I paid 360$ a tree for white oaks I need everything I can get but if I was cutting low grade tie logs etc. it probly wouldn't be worth the headache cutting low, and slow. That's my 2cents and its not worth that.
Great thread!
I'd like to put in a request for tips on felling walnut. Had an old timer tell me there's certain things that you need to do to every black walnut felled. He said the steps aren't necessary on every tree, but you take them regardless every time to insure you don't waste a tree. He did elaborate that you should remove any / all sap wood from the hinge but that's the only tip he gave away.
If it matters, I'll be taking 20-24" trees up to approximately 100' tall out of a wood lot with very few if any lower branches. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: killamplanes on March 27, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
honestly I chase white oak, walnut, makes up over 60% of my work, I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft which adds up very quickly times 20-30 trees a day and yes it a pain shavin butts flares down all day another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps. But that's me we all do things differently I just finished a contract I paid 360$ a tree for white oaks I need everything I can get but if I was cutting low grade tie logs etc. it probly wouldn't be worth the headache cutting low, and slow. That's my 2cents and its not worth that.
Makes sense to me. You do whatever you have to do i guess. I cut about 6 walnut a year. We just don't have em this far north. Generally we leave the white oak stand for its longevity unless i'm cutting down near Illinois where they grow like weeds. Then I'll cut entire jobs of them. You know where your bottom line is at. The wood I'm in right now is below average in quality for sure. Its break up work though. Take what i can get this time of year.
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 26, 2016, 11:11:30 PM
Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
So you bore cut everything? You ever think about why? I cut all hardwood too. Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production. I did several years ago. Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing. You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump. Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood. Not knockin what you do. I mean think about other options in the best possible way. It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to. Whether in the face or the back cut. Food for thought like I said. Not raggin on your style.
at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!
When i first started it was bore cut everything and flush cut stumps. Lots of dull chains and bitchin tho! I get the not wasting wood thing, but man that gets old.
I cut very few walnut but have seen lots of stumps of those who have. They will crown cut them often, meaning bore out all the heart wood from the side while leaving the root flares to hold up the tree. Then they start cutting the flares off tight to the stem. Basically they bump the flairs off when the tree is still standing. To me its a form of stump jumping because there is no hinge or control. I'm sure they would release the tree in the way they think it would go. The leftover flares look like a crown left on the stump. Walnut is very splitty and the tighter you can cut up t h e hinge the better. You can have directional control and still cut the hinge off when the tree is commited. Some kind of hinge or holding wood for directional purposes should be maintained on every tree at least until it commits. Stump jumping is a good way to get hurt.
I guess I'm more like Killamplane on this,but I do know what you're saying about cutting flush and being slower, and hard on chain, Bob. However, not to sound sappy,but trees are like people sometimes--many different types, circumstances, and other factors that influence each different example. That said, I don't always cut low--big, old red oak, hard maple or even hickory I come up to 8 to 10" depending on the tree. However, I cut a LOT of valuable walnut and white oak veneer, and many white oak and burr oak quarter saw-type big butt log trees that also bring in the 1.00 to 1.50/bd.ft range, and I get all I can out of the stump, even though it can be pain. if I can help anyone learn more about cutting veneer walnut I'd be happy to help any way I can. Great topic by guys who know what they're talking about; sure is interesting to learn more even when you're not in the woods!
Quote from: killamplanes on March 27, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft... another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps.
Quote from: cbutler703 on March 27, 2016, 08:13:23 AM
at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!
The old timers around here have a saying:
"An inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown"
Cutting low isn't any slower if you have to go around and lower your high stumps afterwards. I would not accept high stumps on my property, nor would a lot of other landowners around here. A max stump height is not uncommon in timber contracts, and the max listed sure isn't 2 feet.
meh, i quit makin real low stumps years ago. my buyer will just cut it off any way, he said there is almost always a defect that low. i am way more interested is getting them down where i want with no pull.
on the walnut, i would rather have the sap wood holding than any thing in the heart. on any timber really. i never seen one split in the sap wood.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on March 27, 2016, 05:53:49 PM
on the walnut, i would rather have the sap wood holding than any thing in the heart. on any timber really. i never seen one split in the sap wood.
Agreed
Quote from: SW Oh Logger on March 27, 2016, 03:49:10 PM
I guess I'm more like Killamplane on this,but I do know what you're saying about cutting flush and being slower, and hard on chain, Bob. However, not to sound sappy,but trees are like people sometimes--many different types, circumstances, and other factors that influence each different example. That said, I don't always cut low--big, old red oak, hard maple or even hickory I come up to 8 to 10" depending on the tree. However, I cut a LOT of valuable walnut and white oak veneer, and many white oak and burr oak quarter saw-type big butt log trees that also bring in the 1.00 to 1.50/bd.ft range, and I get all I can out of the stump, even though it can be pain. if I can help anyone learn more about cutting veneer walnut I'd be happy to help any way I can. Great topic by guys who know what they're talking about; sure is interesting to learn more even when you're not in the woods!
I get what you are saying. On the species you mentioned you may cut higher they tend to have more root flare. Maybe that's just coincidence along with lower dollar wood. White oak generally has little to none here. Walnut isn't terrible either. I'd like to see some pics of stumps if you'd be willing to share. Like low cut high dollar stuff. You run semi chisel then?
Quote from: John Mc on March 27, 2016, 04:29:27 PM
Quote from: killamplanes on March 27, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft... another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps.
Quote from: cbutler703 on March 27, 2016, 08:13:23 AM
at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!
The old timers around here have a saying:
"An inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown"
Cutting low isn't any slower if you have to go around and lower your high stumps afterwards. I would not accept high stumps on my property, nor would a lot of other landowners around here. A max stump height is not uncommon in timber contracts, and the max listed sure isn't 2 feet.
Not really sure where this 2ft stump is coming into play? Maybe the camera angle exaggerated the stump height? The camera was on the ground and pointed up some. I typically cut just above the root flare unless some other circumstance prevents. Stumps are less than 12" most times. My skidder has a clearance of about 20" under the belly. Sometimes the stumps get higher as you pass over em this time of year. A 1 foot stump sure as hell doesn't slow me down when skidding. Typically land 2700-4000 mbf per hour depending on the job.
I was also told by way of an old timer that a tree couldn't be swung more than 90 degrees just using holding wood. Old guys say a lot of stuff. 1" of wood on a big tree can be a couple of board feet. 1ft of the last log on a big tree can be a lot more than that especially if the stump helped you save that last log.
reply to RHP---Bob, I'm not all that high-tech, LoL, however I do now have a "smart phone" so I'll get some pictures out as soon as I can, even though I regret not generally carrying my phone with me while cutting!! Always think later I should have taken more pictures after it's to late! Anyhow, no, I always run full chisel even though it can get boogered up; I use an axe down low sometimes to get clean cutting areas. Walnut is often a problem getting clean as you want it, but the money is there big time. It's not my money anymore,but they always let know what the big money trees bring--it's a little hard to believe!
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 27, 2016, 10:24:43 PMNot really sure where this 2ft stump is coming into play? Maybe the camera angle exaggerated the stump height?
I was not referring to the stumps in your photo. Someone else made reference to a 1-2 ft stump.
QuoteStumps are less than 12" most times. My skidder has a clearance of about 20" under the belly. Sometimes the stumps get higher as you pass over em this time of year. A 1 foot stump sure as hell doesn't slow me down when skidding.
It's not the skidders, forwarding trailers, feller bunchers, & etc. getting over the stumps that is a concern. It's what's using the forest after the skidders leave. Many landowners here use their woods for recreation or for get their own firewood using a variety of vehicles not specifically designed for logging. A 12" stump is a problem for these activities. They are not going to be happy of they have to go back and trim down the stumps to get access - which is why some contracts specify a max stump height.
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 27, 2016, 10:24:43 PM
I was also told by way of an old timer that a tree couldn't be swung more than 90 degrees just using holding wood. Old guys say a lot of stuff. 1" of wood on a big tree can be a couple of board feet. 1ft of the last log on a big tree can be a lot more than that especially if the stump helped you save that last log.
To make sure we are using the same terminology: by "holding wood", are you referring to the strap that is left on the back of the tree, more or less opposite the side with the notch? This is generally what's left if you do the GOL technique (open face, bore parallel to the face of the notch to establish the hinge then work your way backward, leaving some holding wood to hold a front leaner, or support a back leaner until you are ready to drive wedges and or drop the tree). I ask because some folks use "holding wood" to refer to leaving a thicker hinge on one side to try to steer the tree.
"Swing the tree" to me means changing the direction of fall
during the fall. I generally don't do that, since it tends to require me to hang around the stump longer to make this happen. That's not something I want to do when thinning trees in a crowded woodlot. I'll generally just aim it in the direction I want it to go from the start, using wedges to drive it over if necessary. I do want to try the "soft dutchman" to swing a tree during a fall. I've heard some people describe here, but it's not something I intend to try on my own. I'd like to get an in-person demonstration before I mess with it.
I measured the tallest stump from the videos i posted because i got curious with all the stump height talk. It was 8" on the uphill side and 14" on the downhill side.
When i cut a job i typically push out existing trailsif ive thrown tops on them, but if i'm cutting my way in then new trails are not my responsibilty to maintain. I own a forwarder so i have to drive up to every tree. My trails usually follow the trees then. What the landowner does after that is his buisness. Ive never had a complaint about stumps and stump heights are not an unsual requirement.
I don't really bore cut anything so what i mean by holding wood is the corner of the hinge you use to pull the tree around when employing a dutchman to swing a tree. Its funny you mention the "soft" dutchman. I made a video today using one. Not really a practical cut in a production setting and in hardwood t h e circumstances have to be just right for it to work. I will try to get that posted this week. The soft dutchman uses multiple kerfs to bring the tree around as opposed to a regular or single kerf dutchman. I use the single kerf dutchman on a daily basis.
Yeah, I just though the soft Dutchman sounded interesting. Neither that nor the regular Dutchman are something I envision using on a regular basis. It's not often I've felt the need to actually swing a tree. I tend to just aim the tree in the direction I want it to go, using wedges to drive it over if needed.
On the other hand, as my tag line says "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." (i.e. if I knew how to do a Dutchman, other than from just reading about it, I might see more situations where it would be useful.)
Well heres a burr oak on a hillside not real steep but it did have a bit of butt flare just an average bore cut nothin special but it does have tall spikes but not gonna effect my skidder or bdf of log
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42551/20160329_114839.jpg)
I like trimed up logs for my mill.
U take care of trucking LOL!!!!
Generally trim mine up as well. And cut fairly low
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/jon_phone_054.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/jon_phone_058.jpg)
In blocking timber i tend to raise up on the stump
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/photo0224.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/photo0133.jpg)
Quote from: killamplanes on March 29, 2016, 10:07:51 PM
U take care of trucking LOL!!!!
My friends do. :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/timber_003.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/truck2_006.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN3182.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN3201.JPG)
Quote from: killamplanes on March 29, 2016, 09:07:13 PM
Well heres a burr oak on a hillside not real steep but it did have a bit of butt flare just an average bore cut nothin special but it does have tall spikes but not gonna effect my skidder or bdf of log
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42551/20160329_114839.jpg)
So you just leave the flare attached to the stump right? What bar length are you running? I will have to dig up some of my old low stump pics. I think we might be playing a different game here. Do you cut for a mill, yourself, or a logger?
Quote from: so il logger on March 30, 2016, 12:55:18 AM
Generally trim mine up as well. And cut fairly low
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/jon_phone_054.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/jon_phone_058.jpg)
In blocking timber i tend to raise up on the stump
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/photo0224.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/photo0133.jpg)
I like the humboldt in there! When I switched from cutting low stumps to where I'm at now I figured I was spending another 1-3 minutes on every tree when cutting low. Even an extra minute at 30 trees per day is 30 minutes. I typically cut 1500-1600bf per hour. That was 700-800bf per day I was missing out on. That's not peanuts. I cut for a mill and get paid in volume obviously. Nobody complained when I raised my stumps up. You guys may cut for someone demanding those low stumps and I get that.
he is bucket cutting or crown cutting some call it. I have seen it done, usually hardcore Walnut guys taught by Swiss German Amish. I was team cutting with a guy a few years ago that did that cut nearly every tree...we were cutting nearly on the same postage stamp...it was scarey to be near him really. I understand the cut, seen it performed, but I won't be doing it anytime soon. Low momentum on the fall and I can't see where there is tons of control. Not knocking the cut but I would assume that cut has claimed several saws over the years.
Nice cutting So Ill Logger :) you show the difference in cutting veneer and cutting regular timber and altering your stump heights and cuts depending what you are in and who you are cutting for. LOL!
Bitzer, So Ill may have seen someone litter his woods with Humbolt's...no idea who that would have been ??? LOL!
Quote from: CCC4 on March 30, 2016, 04:02:38 PM
Bitzer, So Ill may have seen someone litter his woods with Humbolt's...no idea who that would have been ??? LOL!
Ha! A tree just looks better coming off the slope on the stump!
I've seen the crown cut before in walnut. I agree that there isn't a lot of control there.
Not particularly advanced technique on this one but it was on a day that tested me as a faller yesterday. Strong wind in one direction. I had a lot of fun using the wind to set my lead, didn't use a wedge all day and had a lot of back leaners.
I had to stayed glued to the stump on each one to make sure it didn't pull up the trunk.
Humboldt with a snipe and chased full throttle down to the ground
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37042/20160329_143540.jpg)
I generally make my sight cut right above the flare easier and faster.
I don't ussually use anything more then working the hinge on the way down to swing soft wood which is what I mostly cut. I'm anxious to get into some hardwood soon so I can try out some of these cuts particularly sizwheel.
No, I don't have any pictures up yet--may not even. However, I have cut and still do cut a lot of Walnut, never have crown cut,as you call it, have seen it in the woods, but not for a long time now here in S/W Ohio. I read the trees, move them to where I need them to be; make a small conventional or humbolt face cut, bore the heart out to either side for a triangular hinge depending on the head lean, size of tree, species, and value of timber--usually very low on prime timber,come up some depending on the terrain and value for lower grade. I am very focused on directional falling , safety, fiber pull--haven't lost a saw in over 40 yrs. of cutting. I will not say I haven't ever had a bar pinched . I do use wedges, but remember, trees are like people-- all different with many different circumstances influencing each one . So, I don't always cut just one way; but I generally cut very low if the value is there. Unlike Bob, and CCC4 I'm not a production cutter, certainly not now, and never have been much of one, but I get the job done right the first time if at all possible. A lot of my trees look like So Ill Logger's--nice work by the way!!
Heres the soft dutchman video. I kind of boogered up the second kerf so you can't see it as well, but oh well. Keep an eye on the top kerf. You can watch it sit in the back, then to the side and then out to the front. The same with the second kerf and eventually the third. Basically this cut is pre-sawing lean into a tree. The wedge is in there for more of a bobber. You can see it stiffen up a touch when I nip the face. AS I nipped the back she sat tight til she leaned out and started to come around to the front. Like I said before, its not really practical in a production setting, but it sure is fun. Initially the tree was leaned back towards the wedge. Top was also somewhat weighted to the back and to the side where it leans out to when it comes around. Honestly the situation has to be *DanG near perfect for this to work in hardwood. Mostly vertical and limb balanced tree, no limbs from other trees to stop the movement, holding wood needs to hold. I didn't realize the cameras mic would have picked up the wind so bad. You can kind of hear what I'm sayin. That and I need to keep the camera straight next time. Feel free to drill me with questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qyVZdHZfT8&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qyVZdHZfT8&feature=youtu.be)
Quote from: SW Oh Logger on March 30, 2016, 08:51:09 PM
No, I don't have any pictures up yet--may not even. However, I have cut and still do cut a lot of Walnut, never have crown cut,as you call it, have seen it in the woods, but not for a long time now here in S/W Ohio. I read the trees, move them to where I need them to be; make a small conventional or humbolt face cut, bore the heart out to either side for a triangular hinge depending on the head lean, size of tree, species, and value of timber--usually very low on prime timber,come up some depending on the terrain and value for lower grade. I am very focused on directional falling , safety, fiber pull--haven't lost a saw in over 40 yrs. of cutting. I will not say I haven't ever had a bar pinched . I do use wedges, but remember, trees are like people-- all different with many different circumstances influencing each one . So, I don't always cut just one way; but I generally cut very low if the value is there. Unlike Bob, and CCC4 I'm not a production cutter, certainly not now, and never have been much of one, but I get the job done right the first time if at all possible. A lot of my trees look like So Ill Logger's--nice work by the way!!
Come On! Still like to see a stump of yers! Clint is the real production cutter here. I only try to out produce myself!
I haven't broke it down in hourly footage totals, but 12 to 15k bd ft by doyle scale per day. In good river bottom tall timber maybe as much as 20k bd ft. In thick underbrush hill timber which is almost always shorter stem timber then 8k ft would be a so so day. Bitzer, CCC4 was good enough to come up and cut for me while i was laid up. I was forced to drive the skidder and i hadn't done that for years. Around here nobody faces out of the stump, ccc4 cut different than me for sure. But he done a outstanding job, and was always ahead of the skidder. I have been slowly trying to adapt to the humboldt
Yeah he told me he was up that way a while back. Good timber too if i recall.
My trees here average 200bf per tree. There are jobs where the average gets up to 500bf. I buck in the woods(forwarder) and cut pulp out of tops or surrounding pole wood so that 15-1600bf number is the total volume converted. Thats scribner. I know doyle is a touch different. I work alone so i cut half/skid half per day. I've never cut tree length in the woods. When i got started i just wanted to cut. Just didn't happen that way. Had to make my own show.
Clint is a good guy.
When you post a link of a video take the s out of https, just http. then the video appears in the post, i learned that here in the FF.
Quote from: teakwood on March 31, 2016, 08:30:49 AM
When you post a link of a video take the s out of https, just http. then the video appears in the post, i learned that here in the FF.
I just tried that, didn't work. I hit the "insert a link" button and pasted the address in there. Is there another way? Maybe I'm takin the wrong address. I did it fine on another site, but they have different buttons over there.
Just highlight the URL of your video then copy it by pressing ctrl c. When writing your post, press ctrl v to paste your link in. Then you can remove the "s" to have the video show instead of a link.
Thanks for the video, RHP. It's an interesting cut.
One of the problems with trying to film yourself cutting, once the camera is set up to show the cut, it's hard to see what's happening to the tree. Does the tree actually change direction on the way down (for example: start falling due east, then swing a bit to the south), or is it just a way to overcome back lean without using a wedge?
bitz you go just a little farther around with the kerfs than i do......of course it depends on the stick. about half the time it will pinch my tip just for a second as it turns on the stump. i always think it went well if the top kerf breaks down.
Quote from: John Mc on March 31, 2016, 06:22:41 PM
Thanks for the video, RHP. It's an interesting cut.
One of the problems with trying to film yourself cutting, once the camera is set up to show the cut, it's hard to see what's happening to the tree. Does the tree actually change direction on the way down (for example: start falling due east, then swing a bit to the south), or is it just a way to overcome back lean without using a wedge?
yes, it will start on the soft dutchman and as the kerfs close up the stem will actually turn into the face. assuming your hold wood is holding/pulling.
i will usually but not always combine it with a sizwheel.
Quote from: 1270d on March 31, 2016, 06:00:31 PM
Just highlight the URL of your video then copy it by pressing ctrl c. When writing your post, press ctrl v to paste your link in. Then you can remove the "s" to have the video show instead of a link.
Thanks, I will have to give that a try. Hows loggin up there goin?
Quote from: Plankton on March 30, 2016, 08:16:35 PM
Not particularly advanced technique on this one but it was on a day that tested me as a faller yesterday. Strong wind in one direction. I had a lot of fun using the wind to set my lead, didn't use a wedge all day and had a lot of back leaners.
I had to stayed glued to the stump on each one to make sure it didn't pull up the trunk.
Humboldt with a snipe and chased full throttle down to the ground
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37042/20160329_143540.jpg)
I generally make my sight cut right above the flare easier and faster.
I don't ussually use anything more then working the hinge on the way down to swing soft wood which is what I mostly cut. I'm anxious to get into some hardwood soon so I can try out some of these cuts particularly sizwheel.
the sizwheel works dang nice in the bigger yellow pine down here ;)
Like treeslayer said it does come around to the front. I wish i could get about three cameras on it to get all the angles. Still doesn't do justice to being there. The tree was leaned to the southeast and faced to the north. Basically you are undercutting the tree so it drops out towards the east and then as it hits the next kerf it keeps moving more north and so on. You can see the movement in the kerfs closing and the stem comeing around. To sum it up you are pre-sawing lean into the tree. When i orignally nipped the back it wanted to sit back. So i nipped the front and it sat out to the east a touch (kerf closes up). Then i nip the back, watch tree move east and a little north, repeat until its finally working on its own.. I didn't have much holding wood left, but there usually isn't. The thing is the multiple kerfs give the tree somewhat of a "soft" movement meaning it doesn't put the pressure on the holding wood like a regular dutchman would.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on March 31, 2016, 07:26:01 PM
bitz you go just a little farther around with the kerfs than i do......of course it depends on the stick. about half the time it will pinch my tip just for a second as it turns on the stump. i always think it went well if the top kerf breaks down.
The first kerf should be halfway through the entire tree. I guess it depends on the tree like you said for the other kerfs, but it seems like you need them where the tree needs to sit out and drop down so it can come around.
My main stay is the single kerf dutchman but I will throw a soft Dutchman ever once in a while. Also been known to throw a thin, fairly deep conventional in the compression corner then the tree finalizes into my Humbolt...seems to get things moving pretty good.
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 31, 2016, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: 1270d on March 31, 2016, 06:00:31 PM
Just highlight the URL of your video then copy it by pressing ctrl c. When writing your post, press ctrl v to paste your link in. Then you can remove the "s" to have the video show instead of a link.
Thanks, I will have to give that a try. Hows loggin up there goin?
It isn't going. Snowing now and going to be cold for a week or more, just not cold enough to hold the trucks up. Once the weather starts looking up we can put up some wood.
I'm really liking this thread. Thanks for sharing guys!
Hey sorry for late reply bad storms took wifi out. I cut for myself by timber lump sum with tree count ie 200 trees in 40ac 30k whatever very little shares here. I sell to probly 5 mill veneer exporter down to blocking I have a small mill and cut ties mainly sycomore odd ball stuff I cant get mills to pay up for the grade mill I use 3hour round trip. Lots of time spent in my truck work by myself 100% of time not for the werry. But I do good. Stay booked a year out 2 sometimes but I pay up front get to it when I get there.. not for everybody but works for me I cut cut good timber I can be choosee because I one guy not tryin to keep crew busy but u aint gonna steal timber here bring big check book and now ur markets..
Don't worry about me, i start feelin all dirty when i get close to the state line! Haha!
Like CCC4 said the single kerf(plain ole Dutchman) is a main stay. I use it everyday and it saves a lot of time instead of wedging. This ash was leaned out to the left. In terms of how I laid it out and where it was leaning- lets say where I faced it was 12 o clock. It leaned at 9 o clock. If I cut it with the lean it would have gone down the shorter part of the hill as well as split the crotch. My guess is I wouldn't have had much left other than a short butt log. Where I laid it out the ground was longer and I got the crotch to lay flat. This saved out all the logs. Yes I did pull some of the side out, but it really just saved the debarker some work. Usually the stump pulls instead, but this ash was pretty high and dry up on this hill. Of course I didn't clear as much from in front of the camera as I could have, but I cut the entire far side of the hinge off first(the 9 o clock side under the lean). Could I have done the same with a full hinge and a wedge, maybe? I don't know that I could have gotten it on the longer sidehill without swinging it some.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1u_8NRTVt4&feature=youtu.be
Heres another regular Dutchman in use. You can see the limb weight and lean of this hard maple is out over the shed. Hard maple does not hold particularly long on the stump when swinging, but this one came around. Removing the far side of the hinge in a Dutchman usually gets the movement going sooner than if I had left a full hinge. Could the same have been accomplished with a full hinge and a little wedging? Probably, but this cut does save time and energy as well as allowing more options to fall back on.
I still couldn't get the video to show up in the post after trying the options mentioned. I'm probably missing something dumb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49f9div3Wdo&feature=youtu.be
Nice job, What are the silver things hanging on your shirt? There's one on each side.
For myself I like low stumps flat as the dinner table and know splinter pull. I run a 32 inch bar and I always swing the heart out and leave only a small wedge on eather side of my knotch. Always carry a axe and two wedges and would fell lost with out them. The past few years with the dead ash I will put my knotch in then bore thur till my bar comes out the other side then get my hinge set up then swing on thur having compleate control of the tree till it tips over. Not a big hinge fan but will use it on small trees. Not any names on my cutting other then 44 years of Autocars way ;D We all have different ways and as long as we all come home safe each night from the woods we are on the right track !
To include a video in the thread, try cutting off the end of the web address you been using: the part that says "&feature=youtu.be". I'm not positive this will work, and I don't have a video to try it with right now, but I know that part is not needed to get you to the video. (might try this with and without the "s" in "https")
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 03, 2016, 07:46:27 AM
Nice job, What are the silver things hanging on your shirt? There's one on each side.
Thank you. They are tally clickers. I keep track of trees and logs. Thats how i know where i'm at for the day or job. I keep em in the forwarder too. Counting bunks of logs and pulp.
That is a great idea. 8)
It is nice to read such a polite and open discussion on felling! I have used the soft dutchman on more trees than I care to count. The way it gets cut can be a bit different from tree to tree, but you can swing them up to a full half turn if the wood is good and the tree is set up for it. I manage a tree lot for a guy and he pays me real well for my time. It is mostly white oak with some red oak mixed in. Good stuff. There are a few nice saw logs in there but they are smaller. He makes firewood. I have to swing trees half of the time just to snake them between keepers. Sometimes I climb and trim the top out so I can drop a stem. His lot has a lot of leaners and dead wood. It is looking much better now and will be full of nice white oak in another 20 years.
Again, thanks for the awesome conversation and manners!
I agree, this is an interesting discussion, which has avoided one school of thought trying to "out macho" the other. That's one of the reasons I spend time here, and have largely given up on other, related sites. The open, collaborative atmosphere beats the trolls and juvenile insults any day.
On the 20yrs there we be a lot of good white oaks. That brings me a thought I just finished a 200 tree white oak contract the timber was logged 28yrs ago and I'm tellin ya they either clear cut it or white oaks grow very very slow good trees but not very big....
So there is still something I'm not understanding about the advantage of a dutchman or soft dutchman. What does it get you that just aiming the tree and driving it over with a wedge (if needed) doesn't accomplish? I'm not so much wondering which is faster, just if there's a situation where one works, and the other doesn't, or doesn't work as well.
Quote from: John Mc on April 08, 2016, 08:28:17 PM
So there is still something I'm not understanding about the advantage of a dutchman or soft dutchman. What does it get you that just aiming the tree and driving it over with a wedge (if needed) doesn't accomplish? I'm not so much wondering which is faster, just if there's a situation where one works, and the other doesn't, or doesn't work as well.
it saves a hell of a lot of beating on wedges. say you have 100 trees leaning toward a property line or smz, they can not fall that way. suppose they are all 100' tall and 40" on the stump with heavy top lean toward the line........beating that many over in a day gets old fast. i think its alot easier once you get the hang of it. its also handy for not busting leave trees and to lay them out so as its easy to get um out with out barking leave trees.
I can see the "beating 100 trees gets old" part. But as far as "not busting leave trees and to lay them out so as its easy to get um out with out barking leave trees", I don't have trouble avoiding doing that now. I can directional fell a tree where I want it to go now, without doing a Dutchman. I'd still like to learn to do a Dutchman/Soft Dutchman, but I guess I'm not seeing what it gets me in terms of getting a tough tree down where I want it.
I'll admit that some of the reason I'm not seeing the value could well be because I've not seen a Dutchman done very often (in person, vs on a youtube video), and when I did see it, it was something I could have just as easily accomplished without it.
Treeslayer said it perfectly. It's not that you can't do it by just wedging them over its why. When used properly and on a regular basis it will open up a whole new world for you. You will be able to do things easier and more efficiently than before. The soft Dutch not so much, but just your single kerf Dutch yes. It truly is directional falling. Takes time to get good at it tho.
Think about never pulling a wedge out in a day of cutting. It will change your layouts and how you see the woods.
I don't even own a wedge, I don't do any of "special cuts" I do somewhat direction falling but honestly the only time I've experienced damaging a tree "busting" is tryin to put a tree were a tree does' nt want to go .defying gravity. I personally back up the skidder, tie on a choker high get the tree hanging by a thread, make sure skidder away from fall zone go 100ft out and give a tug and release.. not for everyone but been doin it for years this way but its not for everyone or every tree just the important one that I now I can't defy gravity on.. maybe I should be better at directional falling but it awfull hard to make a tree go 90degree differrent direction with a 20 degree lean. Just sayin
Quote from: RHP Logging on April 08, 2016, 10:12:32 PM
Treeslayer said it perfectly. It's not that you can't do it by just wedging them over its why. When used properly and on a regular basis it will open up a whole new world for you. You will be able to do things easier and more efficiently than before. The soft Dutch not so much, but just your single kerf Dutch yes. It truly is directional falling. Takes time to get good at it tho.
yeah, i'm older than you......mah shoulder hurts lol. actually, i have had a soft dutch, sizwheel and wedges in big timber to turn sticks i would have thought was impossible before learning this stuff.
Quote from: killamplanes on April 08, 2016, 10:37:43 PMmaybe I should be better at directional falling but it awfull hard to make a tree go 90degree differrent direction with a 20 degree lean. Just sayin
Actually not so tough to go 90˚ from direction of lean on a 20˚ leaning tree. 20˚ of
back lean is a bit of a pain in the rear-end to do with just wedges. I haven't really thought much about or measured
angles of lean when I'm cutting. I'm usually thinking "how many
feet do I have to move the top of that tree before gravity will take over?" Overcoming 5 feet of back lean on a 60 foot tree is simple, but that doesn't amount to a whole lot of degrees. I've done 10 feet from time-to-time. More than that, only a couple of times (and that was more just to see how far I could push that technique, rather than something I'd choose to do regularly)
Turning, spinning, or swinging a tree is more than just getting it to tip a different direction. It is a skill that really does open up the woods/forest like nothing else. If you have a cut tree next to a leave tree and the cut tree has to land on the other side of the leave tree, you have no choice but to use a soft dutchman and swing the tree around the other one and not hurt it. You just can't do that with wedges. I started using the dutchman at the age of 11 or 12, believe it or not. I had to swing a tree and there was no way to do it, so I started thinking of ways to make it do it. I came up with the dutchman, with was already widely used by other fallers, but completely unknown to me. I have been using it for the last 18 years with fantastic results. I used it while working for a tree service a couple of years ago. We were doing a select cut on a red pine plantation that was purchased by a neighbor lady and she wanted a wooded yard, sort of like a park. We cut maybe 200 trees out of there, and they all seemed to be leaning the wrong way. I swung most of them to save the nicest ones and the boss kept asking me why the trees were twisting and curving around the other trees. He told me to use a rope, something about osha or some such nonsense, but I didn't use one because I didn't need it and it would have taken forever to set a rope in that many trees. He let me keep cutting and we finished ahead of schedule. I kept 3 guys with a chipper and loader busy cleaning up behind me and felt great doing it because I didn't have to drive a single wedge.
I am not saying this to boast, only to show that true directional falling is a very useful skill that comes in very handy. It can save you a lot of time and money, as well as keeping good trees from getting hurt. Being able to tip a tree is different than being able to steer a tree through and around other trees while it is falling. These are two completely different things. Ask any good faller and he will tell you the same thing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that it may be a valuable technique. I'm just trying to understand it.
I guess you can look at it like this:
Wedges with a standard notch will tip a tree straight over, meaning the top of the tree makes a b-line for the ground and anything in the way will either get damaged or will hang up the tree, which makes a situation that is slightly risky, very risky.
A good dutchman will swing the top of a tree out and around and then put that tree right where you want it. The path looks almost like a question mark. This is because you are putting multiple hinges in the tree and they are working in series, one after the other to change the hinge direction as the tree tips. The final hinge is the open notch that puts the tree on the ground. The rest are just slices that close and compress to tip the tree sideways so it will start falling. If you do it wrong, the tree will just fall over backwards and then you have trouble, because there is no notch on the backside, so the tree simply falls where gravity pulls it. The dutchman tips the tree at an angle to the natural lean and each slice adds to that angle after the previous slice is closed, sort of like falling down a spiral staircase in slow motion.
If done right, a tree can be swung 180* from it's original direction of lean without wedges or a rope, AND you can get it to land on the other side of the tree next to it without hurting that other tree. Most of the videos out there show the dutchman in a rather wide open space so it is hard to tell what is going on. The best camera angle would be just behind the tree with the camera on the ground pointed almost straight up so the motion at the top can clearly be seen.
It is a sight to behold when a tree walks right around in a circle and then lands BEHIND the tree nest to it. It is hilarious to see the reactions of those watching when they see how the tree moves. They think you have some super power to be able to get a tree to fall up and THEN down. It never gets old. lol
Falling down a spiral staircase is a good description. I just can't see it happening in the videos I've seen (most seem to focus on the cut itself, rather than the motion of the tree, and those that do show the tree seem to show from an angle that doesn't show the change in direction very well).
Do Dutchman cuts all tend to require being at the stump cutting as the tree falls? (I guess that would explain why OSHA has fits about it.)
I've tried making videos from the bottom of the tree looking up and it's tough to see because there is no point of reference. The video next to the building showed the lean and limb weight against a vertical structure for reference. Watch the video of the softdutch again and again. Watch what happens to the kerf when and where I remove wood from. When the kerf tightens up, that where the tree is leaning. Honestly you may have to learn by doing. Sometimes you do have to stay at the stump depending on how the swing is going. You can over swing with too much wood. Not enough holding wood and it won't come around far enough. Eventually you just know. One thing about learning how to swing and read trees is it makes you more observant and aware of what the tree is doing. You are looking up and watching how you are controlling the tree. You ever watch a video of a guy bore cutting a tree? They never look up. That to me is far more dangerous than staying at the stump longer.
I seriously doubt OSHA has a clue about any specific cuts other than GOL and that is why they like it. My C Faller instructor told me that I can throw whatever I want as long as it is done right. He goes on fire line falling out West and knows what cuts I need for out there. As far as I know, OSHA doesn't have anyone qualified enough in falling in my area for us to have even heard they cared. OSHA is more worried about guards over belts in sawmills and electrical boxes...actually I got wrote up as a sawyer once because I refused to clean my side glass on my saw cab. I had enough cleaned I could see my tail man and saw out my left window...those other idiots in the back were just being distracting, it was like a circus, we had a lot of fun but they acted like idiots most of the time. The day I see an OSHA person in my strip, im gonna pinch myself because I'm dreaming.
Just wondering if you all use the site lines on the saw to aim the notch,and sometimes I run a ring from one corner of the notch to the other as a guide so my back cut is level. Was thinking a level bubble on the saw would be neat. Thanks for posting all the neat notches! Work safe!
I use the sight lines sometimes but the quickest way I've found is use the handlebar which only works on jonsered which have a straight handle. I also run a full wrap handlebar so whichever way I'm in the tree with my sight cut I'm able to use it
Depends on my tree and cut. I run half wrap, so if facing normally and back cutting with back bar, I never look, I just know myself and where my cut is. Same if I am back barring the face in and doing a standard back cut. If on a big tree and I want to switch sides of the tree for the back cut, I always scribe a mark to follow. Reason is your body position changes due to terrain when you switch sides. I'm a big believer in using body points to line my cut up. I anchor my elbow on my thigh about 4 inches from my knee, I know where I am and this seems to work for me.
For facing I start dead in the middle and face up, if starting from one corner I straddle my corner with my falling dogs and line up that way.
i use the lines on really big sticks. now if i could find a way to line up perfect on a block bore on the real big ones every time lol.
Here is a cut so frowned upon I named it myself 8)...it's the K.O.D faceless bore cut for hard leaning busty timber. I use this cut sparingly but when I don't think I can beat the back cut I throw it. Usually used on ones leaning bad or have 100% of their top weight down hill from the main stem. I can cut any degree of leaner with this cut and have done some almost flat to the ground without busting or pulling any fiber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0767.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0768.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0769.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0766.jpg)
Stump jumper!
Quote from: timberlinetree on April 10, 2016, 06:27:33 AM
Just wondering if you all use the site lines on the saw to aim the notch,and sometimes I run a ring from one corner of the notch to the other as a guide so my back cut is level. Was thinking a level bubble on the saw would be neat. Thanks for posting all the neat notches! Work safe!
The only time I ever need to gun (sight lines) the tree anymore is on big sticks and I need to clean up the far corner of the face(notch). Otherwise it's more instinct. As far as getting level cuts, try cutting on your knees or one knee. It's a lot easier to square up to the tree kneeling than standing. Pay attention to where you body needs to be and eventually it will be muscle memory. Sometimes my cuts start to get a little wild and I have to check myself. Usually I toss the cuts in without thinking though.
I use them but they are about rubbed off.
Quote from: CCC4 on April 10, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
Here is a cut so frowned upon I named it myself 8)...it's the K.O.D faceless bore cut for hard leaning busty timber. I use this cut sparingly but when I don't think I can beat the back cut I throw it. Usually used on ones leaning bad or have 100% of their top weight down hill from the main stem. I can cut any degree of leaner with this cut and have done some almost flat to the ground without busting or pulling any fiber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0767.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0768.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0769.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31004/100MEDIA_IMAG0766.jpg)
Nice. Is that holding wood I see there?
Yes, you leave 1 1/2 or so in the front and a couple in the back. Pop the back and let the front rip down the stump.
i'v done that cut c4 is showing you, its tricky and you really need to know the wood your cutting. stay safe folks.
This is my favorite thread, I enjoy the posts, discussion and the videos. Thanks to everyone, springs here today, slowing down for the season so doing my CE!
CCC4 Ive been doing that for years on those hard leaning suckers. I never really bragged about it much because it looks like a slick handed dude cut the tree, but it sure works good lol
Before you break its back, try to cut just below the face so it doesnt tear all the way down the stump. You only have to cut in about 3/4 inch and it will snap off. It doesnt matter much because you obviously trim it after falling, but in case the log is laying tight on the ground there is only an inch or two hanging off the butt instead of 2 feet, and i dont really like sticking my saw that close to the ground. I have no idea if that makes any sense.
Makes perfect sense!! I'm gonna try that for sure, never even thought about doing that, great idea!!
Quote from: timberlinetree on April 10, 2016, 06:27:33 AM
Just wondering if you all use the site lines on the saw to aim the notch,and sometimes I run a ring from one corner of the notch to the other as a guide so my back cut is level. Was thinking a level bubble on the saw would be neat. Thanks for posting all the neat notches! Work safe!
They come in handy in tight quarter select cutting where the canopy can get hung up pretty quick if you are a couple degrees off.
beats taking down extra trees to knock down the hang ups.
Experience is the best "level bubble" I know, you throw enough wood on the ground in a day you can cut level with your eyes closed.
If you aren't comfortable doing some of these cuts, there is nothing wrong with the open face bore cut. It works excellent on hard leaners, small trees, huge trees, post oaks to veneer walnut. If your holding wood is good you can wedge, pull, beat, run into, and jerk on it all day. It is the safest cut in the woods.
Disclaimer lol
CX3 is right. I have used that when in some hairy situations and it always works. I have used it when jacking trees over as well. Cut the face, bore cut about half of the back. Cut out box for jack, put pressure on the jack, insert wedges in case of jack failure, start removing holding wood. Works great with en excellent safety margin. Make sure you have a good sized jack head for bigger trees, I have sunk a small one right into the end fibers of a red oak and it wasn't leaning that far. I have a 20 ton short bottle jack with a large head on it that works great for jacking trees. It is as small as I will go. A good 40 ton would be better for maintaining a weight cushion so you don't overload the jack. It is amazing how much compression or tension a leaning tree has in the base wood.
Gave the Dutchman a try the other day....started to work, then it ended poorly. Maybe I need to pay for the full lesson.
Can you give the scenario and the chain of the events leading to what went wrong? What type of Dutcman, kerfed or single.
It actually worked well, except for I forgot to move away from the stump. I was amazed watching the cuts close up one by one. Top broke and and whacked me on the head. I'm cutting an ash salvage and they are more dead up top than I thought. It lightly brushed another top and part broke off. And yes, I was alone but immediately looked around to see if anybody saw me.
If you are on the side of the tree watching the kerfs, you are on the kill side. Don't ever stand under the lean of the tree! I thought that was implied. A good way to get killed. You are lucky. Dutchman's are not meant to be played with in dead timber unless you REALLY know what you're doing.
Be careful out there. It gets bad quick. I worked for a tree service last year and was running the lowering line with a port a wrap. He was supposed to take out the top 10-15 feet of a big white pine, but cut off over 20 feet without warning. It came down way too fast and on the wrong side of the tree. I jumped back but it still hit my arms. Close call there. The saem guy dropped the top of a walnut on me about a week later and broke my hard hat, dislocated my shoulder, neck and a few places in my back. I walked off the job after that. He told me I was all clear to grab a branch from under the tree and then WAMO!! I was on the ground. Don't trust the tree or the guy in it. The boss was mad when I left, but I told him I was going back to doing my myself so I could be safer and make more money. That was a bad place to work.
be careful out there.
I feel like the cut went well, it worked. The problem is I skipped the most important step...get out of the way. I neglected to do so and I can assure you that's my one and only hang around and watch experience.
Quote from: rdobb13 on April 21, 2016, 01:45:29 PM
I feel like the cut went well, it worked. The problem is I skipped the most important step...get out of the way. I neglected to do so and I can assure you that's my one and only hang around and watch experience.
I'm glad you didn't get hurt with that top coming out. Main thing...did you learn anything?? I would say you learned a lot! This is called learning from the school of hard knocks, sometimes you learn more beneficial knowledge by a mistake. Would a book have told you about that snag...nope. Anyway, glad you didn't get banged up and I'm glad you walked out being able to share on the forum, your info will help more people reading this than you can imagine.
In my 30 yrs of felling timber, i used the Dutchman Swing on about 70% of the trees i fell. And on bad leaner's i used the box cut, never had one chair on me. I never used the bore cut and i never used a wedge in MN. When i was felling timber in MT i had one one my tool belt. I can remember using it a few times, but not very many, i always fell with the wind. I can remember waiting for the wind to come around the valley again ;D
But then i had a bag full of tricks when it came to felling trees after felling around a million trees.
I started running measuring stick for my father at 6-7 yrs old, he was using a 5-20 or the Zip or a 7-19 Homelite. It seemed like he was always cutting selective cut Jack or Norway pine here in the Chippewa National Forest. Will he made game out of felling trees, he'd fall a tree, then show me how he got it to fall that way. He never used a wedge or owned one that i know of. I can clearly remember him saying, Duane i'm still working on a method to turn a tree around on the stump, so it will fall the opposite direction its leaning, i just ;D
rdobb13 or a lucky guy, I'm not going to preach, because you all ready learned.
Here is a tree that didn't go just right. It had some back lean and a good amount of side lean and top weight. I was trying to use a hybrid GOL wedge it over and sort of Dutchman with a tapered hinge.
This is the heavy side, shows the back lean. The narrow end of the hinge just forward of the seam. I bored in to form the hinge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/ViewMaple1.JPG)
This is the back after I completed the hinge by boring in on the other side, set a second wedge, and cut the holding wood in back and added a third wedge to drive. You can see the side lean. I could not see any seam on the left side when I set the hinge where I needed the strong holding wood. But when I bored in it felt like there was not much there. I thought I just ran into the bore from the other side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/ViewMaple2.JPG)
I drove in the wedge and managed to beat the back lean then I heard the hinge break early as it was coming down. I didn't know that seam ran right thru the spot where I needed the good holding wood to beat the side lean. So the tree ended up a little more than 45 degrees off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/ViewMaple3.JPG)
As a Monday morning quarter back I can see what I could/should have done differently. But I wonder what how you guys that really know your stuff would have cut this.
gg
Well, I see a couple things that may have contributed to the tree coming off the non intended way. One of the things I see is that your left corner of the back cut seems to have come out high. When this happens on a tree that already has a tendency to want to go to the right lets say...the high corner will permit going to the low side overriding your hinge and your wedges because it lifts straight up instead of pushing forward if that makes sense. The 3rd wedge on the left being placed there sealed the deal. If the tree could talk it would have been saying, "Gotcha".
Seams play a fairly crucial role, I always try and cut in past them and try to eliminate them as having any baring. With the side lean and the secondary leader to the lean, there was a lot of pressure on the compression wood side. A quick elimination of the compression wood would have allowed more strain and reactivity to the tension wood and helped in keeping her from going with the lean.
However...I wasn't there to see the standing tree and me saying what I would have done won't help. I have had this same thing happen to me and this is why I think the high corner sealed the deal....just enough elevation and the 3rd wedge on the left caused hinge and wedge override. JMO though
was that hard or soft maple? i probably would used a block face........but it is difficult to fall opposite the lean, 90 is usually doable.
CCC4 thanks so much for your comments. When I tried to figure what happened I never considered that high corner even though I did notice it as being undesirable. After your explanation I can see how that high corner would lift the tree into the lean during the fall. Very helpful !!!
It was a soft (red) maple.
gg
First, that wood looks brittle and the twist doesn't help any. The high back cut caused the fibers to split along the grain with some forward runout, eliminating your hinge on that side. I try to be careful with "lobed" trees because of those seams. Finding the safest path for the tree trumps the path you want in this case. Brittle wood needs thinner hinge so it will bend. If I am worried about a tree, it gets dumped on the ground the safest way possible, even if it means damaging another tree in some cases. You can replace trees not lives.
Looking down your drop zone, do you think you could have got the tree in there by aiming 30 degs to the left? I've tried over compensating with side lean by changing the cut direction with some success.
I've do that a lot it's fairly accurate in my experience. I aim my face cut roughly the same degree that it's leaning from my lay opposite the lean. Say its leaning to the right of where I want it I'll put my face in pointing to the left of my lay the same amount it's leaning to the right and with some playing with the hinge as it falls it will go in the center where I want it if that makes sense.
Hard to describe cuts through a keyboard...
Soft maple usually swings pretty well. I'd put a Dutchman on the the lean side ( cut half The hinge off prior to backcut) and make sure I had good holding wood on the pull side. Sbouldn't be a problem bringing that around as long as you keep that seam out of your pull wood. Face the tree, cut the far half of the tree off from front to back. Then start your backcut in that kerf you created from the front side. Stick a wedge in the kerf if you're worried it will sit back. Continue to cut you back and watch for top movement. Tap the wedge to get the action going if needed. When it starts to move keep your holding wood(pull wood) intact. You can always remove more wood but you can't put it back. Knowing how much wood you need to keep the tree on the stump to swing it around to the lay is more instinctual than anything. You have to read and feel what the tree is doing. This is not in a book. It is the art of timber falling. Fluidity of movement. Working with the tree and gravity. Something that GOL and SFI do not teach and unfortunately is probably a dying form. Working with the tree and the elements around you will produce more volume for you every time with less effort and fatigue. You are also more aware of hazards that occur because you are watching the tree for movement versus the head down, bore cut everything, unnecessarily wedging style that is taught today.
Gman- it looks like you Had an unintentional Dutchman on the the side of the tree you needed you strongest wood. It also looks like you cut it up too tight on that side.
Well said bitzer. I am no good at explaining it on a keyboard. When i'm swinging one i remove 80% or so of what would be the hinge from the heavy side. And bring the saw around the back working toward my pull wood. Allot can be done with one, it is all in understanding the tree. And experience helps a little too
Quote from: RHP Logging on April 22, 2016, 10:07:03 PM
Gman- it looks like you Had an unintentional Dutchman on the the side of the tree you needed you strongest wood. It also looks like you cut it up too tight on that side.
That is what I thought too. My thinking is that it was a combination of that seam running thru the hinge on the left side and I may have or probably under cut the hinge a little with a poor face cut on that side so I ended up with Dutchman on the wrong side of the tree.
What I was trying to do was make a tapered hinge, weak on the heavy side and strong on the pull side, which I think will do the same thing as ED K suggested ie face the tree purposely in the wrong direction to get it to fall some where between the natural lean and the face cut.
I hear you and thoroughly respect your ability to work without wedges but I am no where near that level. Probably never will be but I keep trying to improve. Thanks for you great explanation of how you would Dutchman that tree. From what you said the key is make sure your holding wood is right by watching the trees movement as you make the back cut. Thank you.
gg
Great thread for us folks that are still learning. I rarely clear cut as a firewood cutter so control and aim are obviously critical when selectively cutting and getting the wood on the ground. Threads like this have made me much better at avoiding those embarrassing hang ups. Thank you.
I've watched and watched guys using the bore cutting method. What i see, it takes time, and your guessing on how much hinge wood to leave. Because when you cut the back strap the tree is out of your control. A guy has no idea how strong the wood fibers are, every tree is different. So how can a guy know how much hinge wood to leave. I wouldn't like guessing, i wanted full control of the tree. I talked to the tree, some had nice names, some not so nice.
The Dutchman Swing is the only way to fall trees directional with out using a wedge. And this is the main reason i ran a 16" bar, you don't have the same control with a 20" in 6 to 30" trees.
Lets say i had a tree with a little lean to the South and i want to fall more to the East. I would notch it on the East side and also put a small notch on the Southeast side to help the swing. Then i'd start my back cut on the South side, sawing around to the West, coming around to the North. Now the swing starts, i'd watch the top come around while butterflying the throttle of the saw, watching, watching, when the tree got right where i wanted it i'd saw it off the stump. Then i'd take my escape route, straight North.
In a Aspen clear cut, 6 to 16" trees, i could easily fall 70 to a 100 trees an hour.
Back in 1970 i told Farmer logger i'd help him on Sat. Will i went out dancing Fri. night and to a all night party. Then about 7 AM the wife reminded me that i had told Rod i'd help him. So i jumped in my new Mustang and headed for Wagner lake. When i got there Rod was putting fuel in the skidder. I still had my dancing cloths and shoes on, he took one look and shook his head. I grabbed the 800 Homelite, run a file around it, gas and oiled it up and headed out. When i came back to the landing, Rod had two twitches out. Then he asked me how many trees did i get down, i said around a 100, he said you've only been gone 55 minutes, no way. I told him to start skidding and i'd buck up. It turned out to be 96 trees, 17 to 19 cds
Heres a White Pine i fell using the Dutchman swing, it was leaning to the Southeast, it needed to go straight South. I wasn't happy with that little fiber pull, but at least i'm honest, i could have cut it off.
Any of you new tree fellers, don't copy this. When you don't put your back cut a least two inch's above your notch, the tree can easily spin around or slid back off the stump.
Why did i do it ? I liked to save one step, and that is, theres no snipe to cut off the butt.
What kind of saw is that ? It is a 70 Plus Partner, good old saw.
This was cut off a timber sale by Sucker Bay [1986 ]
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21649/scan0012.jpg)
Your back cut was way to high.
With open face/GOL technique you should wind up with a flat stump. It never works if you put your back cut too high and the hinge always breaks early. If the stump has a "stair step" look you did it wrong.
It would be hard to judge any other issues because the high back cut is a big issue.
As far as people bad mouthing bore cutting I want to make one thing clear OSHA has concluded Swing Dutchman is one of the: "Unacceptable Practices for Felling Difficult Trees" They came to this conclusion after years of investigating and analyzing logging fatalities. When someone is found dead at a stump the stump tells the tail.
I am all for people doing what they want but I think that they should hear the whole story before they make up their minds.
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html (https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html)
I was wondering when someone was going to mention that, Grassfed. The step makes sense (and is a safety precaution) on some types of cuts, but not if you are doing the GOL technique.
As far as using a Dutchman regularly, there is a reason OSHA doesn't like it. The statistic bear out that it is a riskier cut, and requires you to stay at the stump as the tree is moving. That's not to say there aren't people who can do it safely, but it does entail more risk than other methods. Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance, and I'm not saying mine is the "right" level of risk for everyone.
I typically don't clearcut, but I still can generally find a way to get a tree down and on target even against the lean. Up to this point, I've been able to get them where I want without "swinging" the tree or chasing the hinge on the way down. If another tree is in the way, I just find another way to accomplish what I need to do.
I'd like to learn to do a Dutchman, but mostly because I'm curious and I like to learn new things. I don't "need" to do it, nor am I willing to take that risk on a regular basis. (If I was making a living at this, maybe I'd feel differently.) When I do learn to do it, it will be by working with someone in person who is experienced at it, not by reading about it and going out on my own to try. As others have said, it's hard to describe this sort of thing on paper and get the idea across.
We never clear cut here, knowing how to implement a dutchman or sizwheel to turn or swing a tree is a must. The guys that only bore and release that i have watched here either need aid from a skidder to push or they beat wedges non-stop. And then there are a couple guys i personally know that gol cut and always turn the tree loose the direction that it wants to fall. Results in damaged residual stand and unnecessary limbs and debris flying back to the stump, and lodged timber. There is no 1 cut fits all scenarios, on any given day i will swing probably 70% of what i cut. Also on hard leaners i use the same cut as others have mentioned, bore the tree out leaving a tab on front and back. Weaken the front tab and pop the back to release. As well as the dreaded match or crown cutting method aka jumping...... ;D
Quote from: so il logger on April 23, 2016, 03:29:38 PM
The guys that only bore and release that i have watched here either need aid from a skidder to push or they beat wedges non-stop. And then there are a couple guys i personally know that gol cut and always turn the tree loose the direction that it wants to fall. Results in damaged residual stand and unnecessary limbs and debris flying back to the stump, and lodged timber.
Well, yeah, I think we can agree that if someone is incompetent it doesn't matter what type of cut they are using.
This shouldn't be an argument. Any reasonable person knows there is more than one way to take down a tree. Go to Game of Logging and then read a book by D. Douglas Dent or get some training from some one using his methods and you will see a ton of contradictions (stepped stumps among them). How can anyone say one is right and one is wrong - that is crazy.
gg
I didn't think we were arguing. It's an interesting discussion. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to fell their trees. It's just that the methods discussed in this thread aren't for everyone,
agreed JohnMc, i have personally tried just about every method i'v read about. i have my favorites but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
A couple thoughts/replies on GOL. I cut trees from 1972-2005 before I ever took GOL. During that time period I worked professionally some time and did other things like military and school other times.
No mater how you cut down trees you get better and learn tricks over time.
lumberjack48 said
Quoteyour guessing on how much hinge wood to leave. Because when you cut the back strap the tree is out of your control
Well what I have learned over the last 11 years of using GOL is that I know more about how much hinge wood to leave because the plunge cut reveals how sound the wood is inside the tree. I see rot in the chips coming out before I decide how to cut the hinge. When you cut the face the wood may be fine but you have no way of knowing if the wood changes and rot starts right on the other side of the hinge. If you start your back cut without plunging and don't have any holding wood, then if you hit rot, you are guessing and hoping that you have good wood at your hinge.
As far as beating the heck out of wedges: that tends to happen when you don't use enough wedges and you don't place them correctly on heavy/ hard leaners. I use a 3 lb cross peen hammer that has a custom long handle and I always drive my wedges with one hand. The trick is to drive each wedge a couple of hits and then go to the next one.
Quote from: so il logger on April 23, 2016, 03:29:38 PM
We never clear cut here, knowing how to implement a dutchman or sizwheel to turn or swing a tree is a must. The guys that only bore and release that i have watched here either need aid from a skidder to push or they beat wedges non-stop. And then there are a couple guys i personally know that gol cut and always turn the tree loose the direction that it wants to fall. Results in damaged residual stand and unnecessary limbs and debris flying back to the stump, and lodged timber. There is no 1 cut fits all scenarios, on any given day i will swing probably 70% of what i cut. Also on hard leaners i use the same cut as others have mentioned, bore the tree out leaving a tab on front and back. Weaken the front tab and pop the back to release. As well as the dreaded match or crown cutting method aka jumping...... ;D
Very well said. I clear-cut a job or two a year. 90% of the time I'm select cutting. swinging trees opens up a new world of options and efficiency. Like you said, saving out your trees as well as protecting the residual trees. Once you cut the strap on a bore cut tree you are just hoping the tree does what its supposed to instead of KNOWING.
QuoteOnce you cut the strap on a bore cut tree you are just hoping the tree does what its supposed to instead of KNOWING.
That is TOTALLY untrue! I aim the tree and it lands exactly where I aim it.
I have more control because the hinge does not break until the tree is down.
I'd love to have that partner back 8) was the best saw I ever had.
X2 on no one cut for every tree. Need a whole bag of tricks ;) .
Quote from: grassfed on April 23, 2016, 02:20:40 PM
Your back cut was way to high.
With open face/GOL technique you should wind up with a flat stump. It never works if you put your back cut too high and the hinge always breaks early. If the stump has a "stair step" look you did it wrong.
It would be hard to judge any other issues because the high back cut is a big issue.
As far as people bad mouthing bore cutting I want to make one thing clear OSHA has concluded Swing Dutchman is one of the: "Unacceptable Practices for Felling Difficult Trees" They came to this conclusion after years of investigating and analyzing logging fatalities. When someone is found dead at a stump the stump tells the tail.
I am all for people doing what they want but I think that they should hear the whole story before they make up their minds.
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html (https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html)
I get your point and someone always calls.OSHA out when I talk about swinging trees. Most loggers I know of that were killed or hurt in the woods were gotten by a branch falling out of the sky or failing to retreat or walking under hung up trees. Not really even linked to how they cut the tree on the stump. I don't want to turn this thread into a pissing match. It was a place to share ideas and I like a little conflict. Friction can help create ideas if it's constructive. One question I have for you is, is govt always right? In that link they mention not to dominoe fall either. There are situations were that is 100 percent safer than cutting trees individually. The biggest.problem with the safety regs like that is they try to make a blanket to fit all situations. How many of the rule makers have ever cut trees on a professional level? Negligence is negligence wether you cut GOL syle or swing trees. Like I said before, the style of cutting I lean towards makes you sharper and more aware of the situation as a whole. It keeps you looking around instead of looking at the saw. We will probably have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is OSHA doesn't cut timber for.a living.
Quote from: grassfed on April 23, 2016, 09:18:01 PM
QuoteOnce you cut the strap on a bore cut tree you are just hoping the tree does what its supposed to instead of KNOWING.
That is TOTALLY untrue! I aim the tree and it lands exactly where I aim it.
I have more control because the hinge does not break until the tree is down.
You are letting all that momentum go at once. It's like 0-90 in a split second. You are completely relying on what you left for.a hinge.instead of adjusting for the tree as its moving. Reading what the tree is doing. When you cut that strap thats it. Its game over. I'm guessing you cut with the lean alot. Also sometimes you need the hinge to break early to save the entire tree or stay attached to the stump longer or whatever.
I rarely cut with the lean unless I just happen to be lucky; I cut to save my crop trees and to facilitate winching the trees out with the skidder. The only time I push trees is when there is broken topped, hanging, widowmakers. I prefer to work with the chainsaw more than most people and I often cut a day ahead of the skidder.
If I want the hinge to break early I just make a narrower notch.
It is all in the aiming and you adjust the aim for the lean of the tree and the crown.
There are a lot of thin soils over hardpan in this area so there are plenty of leaning trees and blowdowns.
One of the things you are not getting is that I use wedges to support against the lean. If a tree is leaning hard to the right and I want to drop the tree 90 degrees to the lean I wedge it on the right side by the hinge even if I don't need the wedge to push the tree over.
I'm not saying that your technique does not work but I know that mine works and it gives me an extra margin of safety to escape the stump area. I don't want to be worrying about where the tree is falling when I cut the trigger wood or drive the wedge I know where it is going and the second it starts to move I am moving to safety. I am older now and I have bad arthritis I can't run or jump so I have to know what I am doing.
The guys that I see killed are often killed near the stump and it seems like they are in their 50s like me. A lot of the guy were old school and I think that worked for them when they are young quick and nimble .
All that said I do stuff that OSHA frowns on; If the situation calls for it I will domino fell trees. I just think that you guys are not personally experienced with GOL techniques so you don't really know how well they can work.
I know GOL techniques, I took a course. And it is well and good for a part time or firewood guy. I implement the bore and release method on line timber or timber along power lines or roads. It works well for that, having a skidder there to push or pull the tree away from the obstacle. I can have the tree set up and then pop the trigger when the skidder op is ready to make things happen. The true art of hardwood falling is dying, the older generation that knew other ways are retired. I am lucky to have my father that done it all his life to have shown me. He cut production without the osha way all his life
To say that a guy can aim the tree and it falls exactly where it is intended for it to fall. And the hinge that was prepared before the tree was actually turned loose produces these results? I can see maybe 15 degrees left or right on a tree that already wants to go that general direction. The whole purpose of staying in the cut and seeing it through is to ensure fall placement. These methods of falling are not for anyone but the guy's doing it for a living everyday. And that is more less what the thread is about
I started out bore cutting everything. I get how to use wedges. Pretty remedial stuff here. Being able to retreat sooner would be the only positive to gol in my book. Different trees need different cuts. Gol doesnt offer that.
Quote from: RHP Logging on April 24, 2016, 12:40:28 AM
I started out bore cutting everything. I get how to use wedges. Pretty remedial stuff here.
I started out bore cutting as well. I relied on wedges. One day i had a white oak open up instantly with only a minimal hinge. Strait grain as could be, my dad watched it happen as i cut the trigger. The back half of the tree chased me into a ravine. It scared him and he took it out on me, after he looked at the stump he apologized. I was maybe 17 but i knew i had done the cut right.
Quote from: so il logger on April 24, 2016, 12:05:54 AM
To say that a guy can aim the tree and it falls exactly where it is intended for it to fall. And the hinge that was prepared before the tree was actually turned loose produces these results? I can see maybe 15 degrees left or right on a tree that already wants to go that general direction. The whole purpose of staying in the cut and seeing it through is to ensure fall placement. These methods of falling are not for anyone but the guy's doing it for a living everyday. And that is more less what the thread is about
Basically you can aim a tree pretty exactly with just a proper hinge. In ANY direction, as long as the lean isn't too extreme.
The idea of staying at the stump to adjust your hinge as the tree is falling scares the heck out of OSH (and me). All sorts of things can go wrong, that have nothing to do with your actual cut. Tops break out of trees, vines drag rubbish out of other trees, logs bounce backwards or roll off the stump, barber-chairs can happen even when they shouldn't. The further you are away from the action, and taking large steps to improve the distance, the safer you are.
So while not a pro, I do a variety of cuts, and on some fairly large and gnarly trees, And they land where I'm aiming them, even it involves some wedges or a rope and winch. Steering a mild leaner off 90deg to the side is pretty straight forward, and if you compensate for the lean when you make your notch, you can still hit the bullseye.
I do like the GOL style bore cut, but basically only use it on forward leaners. It's big advantage is you can line up your notch and hinge first, and got those just right, before the tree moves. If your hinge is formed correctly, then it's going to steer the tree where you want it. You can clip off the wings, or bore out the middle for various reasons, as long as you leave a functional hinge.
Now I understand what you guys are talking about, and the idea that you can start a tree moving in one direction, then change it's direction. I can see how that would be useful sometimes.
But the idea of messing about at the stump AS the tree is falling? That will get you frog marched off any professional logging operation here in NZ. The management just can't afford the liability when you get injured and weren't using one of the "approved" methods.
I totally agree with Ianab.
In Ontario the immediate supervisor and on up the management chain to the owner or president of the company could also be included in the frog march.
I cannot speak for other jurisdictions but in Ontario the loggers had and still do have input to safety and training regarding logging operations in Ontario.
Thanks
Al
I like the gol method and started out using it always, but I have had similar issues to southern Illinois logger in regards to splitting, mostly in hickory. You can minimize this with boring from the face. I think time wise this cut is usually just as fast as the others.
In repeat to gol being safer, I broke my shoulder last year on a tree I cut using the gol method. I was over 12 feet away when I got hit, it was a dead limb I think was pulled from a vine. With any method you need to be aware of surroundings and have an escape path. Danger comes from above when felling timber.
I have been trying different cuts And appreciate reading about other types of cuts. I am by no means an "expert", but consider myself very experienced.
My opinion is the government likes to make rules and regs that are one size fits all, but they leave out the common sense. I have seen time and again book smart regulators tell us how i should do my day job, but they are not "down in the trenches" and usually have limited insight into how things actually develope on the ground. My dad has had same experience with his conservation plan. Most recently they wanted him to plant wildflowers in the prairie grass, and the plan called spruing it later in the year which would have killed the flowers, really? He had to explain the conflict to the soil conservationist in order to change the prescription. Would have been waste of money.
I look forward to seeing more timber pictures and video.
This a pile of Basswood saw bolts and none of these have been rebutted after being fell. Not to get off the subject but this was the wifes decking expertise's. The reason the top ones aren't quit even is because the blade on the skidder wouldn't go that high.
I've had to get out of a Dutchman early because of a limb or something going wrong. Because of to much hinge wood being left, the tree pulled way to far. This is what i would be afraid of when using a bore cut.
I know if i was cutting a tree by a house that i wouldn't trust my judgment on how much hinge wood to leave. And like i said earlier on bad leaner's i used what my father taught me, the box cut. The same cut they used with a crosscut saw back in the day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21649/Eunice_on_wood_pile.jpg)
Quote from: lumberjack48 on April 24, 2016, 12:53:22 PM
This a pile of Basswood saw bolts and none of these have been rebutted after being fell. Not to get off the subject but this was the wifes decking expertise's. The reason the top ones aren't quit even is because the blade on the skidder wouldn't go that high.
I've had to get out of a Dutchman early because of a limb or something going wrong. Because of to much hinge wood being left, the tree pulled way to far. This is what i would be afraid of when using a bore cut.
I know if i was cutting a tree by a house that i wouldn't trust my judgment on how much hinge wood to leave. And like i said earlier on bad leaner's i used what my father taught me, the box cut. The same cut they used with a crosscut saw back in the day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21649/Eunice_on_wood_pile.jpg)
LJ do you mean a box as in the same thing as a block? how did they do that with a cross cut? i assume with the axe....
i just noticed the IH, s7? it looks just like my s8 but with smaller rubber.
i for one would to see some cross cut stumps........any one?
Thats a 76 S8, Detroit with a Funk power shift.
You take a bad leaner, [ 12" butt ] notch as deep as you dare with out sticking your saw. Then strap cut both sides of the tree, about 4" deep, then make your back cut. When all said and done you end up with about a 4" square on the tree, and stump.
I never seen it done with a crosscut, my father told me this was how his father and him did it when felling big White Spruce with a crosscut.
Quote from: lumberjack48 on April 24, 2016, 02:27:08 PM
Thats a 76 S8, Detroit with a Funk power shift.
You take a bad leaner, [ 12" butt ] notch as deep as you dare with out sticking your saw. Then strap cut both sides of the tree, about 4" deep, then make your back cut. When all said and done you end up with about a 4" square on the tree, and stump.
mine is a 80 358 funk and 23" rubber. great skidders
I had a new 79 S8-A with the 358 Turbo , 23" rubber. I didn't like the way the shifter set was, burned to much fuel, like 40 gal a day and more then half of my logging was selective cut. The 23" rubber made it to wide.
The one in the picture is the same skidder, except, the 4 speed shifter is on the left hand side, and the froward and reverse is on the left hand side of the dash. It twice as fast on the landing and when shifting just hold the throttle down and keep shifting. This one has 18:4x26's on it, i ran it 16 years, its the best skidder i've seen in the woods, and fun to drive. One thing more, tires are loaded.
Quote from: lumberjack48 on April 24, 2016, 03:07:15 PM
I had a new 79 S8-A with the 358 Turbo , 23" rubber. I didn't like the way the shifter set was, burned to much fuel, like 40 gal a day and more then half of my logging was selective cut. The 23" rubber made it to wide.
The one in the picture is the same skidder, except, the 4 speed shifter is on the left hand side, and the froward and reverse is on the left hand side of the dash. It twice as fast on the landing and when shifting just hold the throttle down and keep shifting. This one has 18:4x26's on it, i ran it 16 years, its the best skidder i've seen in the woods, and fun to drive. One thing more, tires are loaded.
23 about narrow as ya go here or ya sink lol. my f-r is in the same left hand shifter as the 1-4. i have had trouble with the cables.
wish i could turn it into an s10 grapple, thats a hell of a machine.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on April 24, 2016, 01:48:54 PM
i for one would to see some cross cut stumps........any one?
I've seen them up in the coast range, pretty rotten by now but a person who knows how they did it could probably spell it out. If I remember I'll take pictures next time I'm up there. I don't know enough to look at a stump and know how the fallers did it, except I always see the slots for the boards they used to stand on, to get above the butt of the tree.
Great thread and neat vids; the saw sounds like it is running optimum too.
Why do threads like this help people like myself (non pro)?
I have a good number of big leaf maple stumps that were cut in the 70s; they all were allowed to produced between 5 to 10 sprouts that are 4" to 12" in dameter and 40-60 feet high.
All the sprouts are leaning out (or away) from the stumps; most are too narrow to plunge cut. Lots of tension and barber chairs. They make a lot of turns when being cut too.
It's tough for a non-pro like myself to consistently and accuratly determine where most of the weight is up high......
I've learned that if the wedges are too hard to pound into the kerf, the weight (up high) is probably on the opposite side of the face cut.....more pounding than cutting towards the hinge usually helps the tree fall in the desired direction.
The maples block way too much light, so it's worth the trouble/fun/work.
The Plunge Cut and Humbolt Face are 2 awesome techniques I learned here; thanks.
Straightgrain have you tried the tongue and groove cut on those skinny maple sprouts ?? It lets you get a wedge set before you start the back cut on skinny trees. Cut your face then bore straight back thru the center of the face cut so your saw comes out the back of the tree. Stick a wedge in the back kerf. Make your back cut to form the hinge in two passes, one on each side of the tree. Start your back cuts about an inch or so above the wedge and just barely over lap that side of the bore cut you made. Stop where you want the hinge. Then do the same on the other side. That leaves a solid strip of wood above the wedge. Bang in the wedge if needed to drop the tree. The stump and butt will look like tongue and groove.
Works great on skinny trees that need a little direction from a wedge. I learned that here several years ago from Ed K.
gg
Quote from: g_man on April 25, 2016, 08:22:51 PM
Straightgrain have you tried the tongue and groove cut on those skinny maple sprouts ?? It lets you get a wedge set before you start the back cut on skinny trees. Cut your face then bore straight back thru the center of the face cut so your saw comes out the back of the tree. Stick a wedge in the back kerf. Make your back cut to form the hinge in two passes, one on each side of the tree. Start your back cuts about an inch or so above the wedge and just barely over lap that side of the bore cut you made. Stop where you want the hinge. Then do the same on the other side. That leaves a solid strip of wood above the wedge. Bang in the wedge if needed to drop the tree. The stump and butt will look like tongue and groove.
Works great on skinny trees that need a little direction from a wedge. I learned that here several years ago from Ed K.
gg
Awesome! I'll give it a try.
Thanks
Playing around with what yall are calling a soft dutchman on a decent size gum with a fairly good lean. Expected to swing it 90* at most. That sucker made a double hitch about half way down and swung around about 120*. Another 20 degrees and it would have landed in middle of the landowner's shed.
I like it! :D :D :D
Quote from: mills on April 27, 2016, 05:23:43 AM
Playing around with what yall are calling a soft dutchman on a decent size gum with a fairly good lean. Expected to swing it 90* at most. That sucker made a double hitch about half way down and swung around about 120*. Another 20 degrees and it would have landed in middle of the landowner's shed.
I like it! :D :D :D
yeah, sweet gum will hold on forever
This is a good example about what i explained earlier, every tree is different. I aways watched the tree pull over to right where i wanted it to lay, then saw it off the stump. When i was teaching my two boys how to swing a tree, they'd put targets up for me to hit. The boys got there first new saw on their 8 th birthday. The kids are sure different today.
My deceased neighbor (10/2009), mentor, and "captain" gave me a few lessons on tree felling; particularly the art of cutting one side of the hinge thinner (or leaving one side of the hinge thicker) than the other side in order to manipulate the directon of fall.
Unnnnnnnn-fortunately, no matter how I much I try to imitate my neighbor, I have not yet come close to his accuracy. I've had mixed results to "say the least".... ;D
Shooting for a voluntary-consensus: If I understand it correctly, a tree usually swings or falls towards the same side as the thicker portion of hinge?
Yes you want the thickest wood.on the side away from the lean of the tree. That wood pulls the top around by holding it to the stump. No hinge on the lean side will get you there. If you leave even a slight hinge on the lean side you are fighting the effect of the swing. Being able to properly read a tree is the biggest factor in being able to swing it.
Wanted to see if I could post a picture directly from my phone. Got a smart phone a few weeks ago. They claim it's shatterproof so I went for it. I will have to find the sweet spot for pixels. I knocked this one down quite a bit so they would take it.
Anyway here is a red oak from yesterday. 36inches on the stump or so. The tree was leaning to the right in the picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/IMG_20160429_194217.jpg)
Quote from: RHP Logging on April 29, 2016, 08:53:03 PM
The tree was leaning to the right in the picture.
So it went 90 degrees CCW of the lean? I can see the right hinge was removed. What, if anything else, was done? Were wedges involved? How did you insure the pulled fiber came from the stump?
The stem and most of the top was leaned to the right. The top did have just enough limb weight towards the lay that it pulled itself forward with no wedges. Sometimes on flat ground you need a few taps from a wedge to get everything moving. The face(notch) was a fairly wide conventional. That allowed the pull to come from the stump. I didn't on this stump but if you put a snipe on the stump or butt the pull will come from the stump. The butt cleaned right off. No cracks or pulls.
Looks good Bits
I love a challenge, and dropping trees is definitely challenging.
You boys keep this one going. smiley_beertoast
This ash is from several years ago. 30+ inches where I cut it. It was Leanng to the left in the pic. You can see the sweep in the stem. The landowner wanted the tree down but insisted I couldn't lay it up the hill where it was leaning. I had to use a wedge to keep the Dutchman side kerf open to get it cut off. Then I took the wedge out. As you can see I used the side of the stump and the roots to pull this one around. Having spent months cutting rotten butt swamp timber you get creative. How would a GOL guy handle this? Not sure she would hold up to wedging. I suppose you could try to pull it. Not sure how that would handle it either. Not trying to brag here. Just showing that sometimes the trees and cuts don't draw inside the lines. And I saved out a couple of 12 or 14fters. Can't remember now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/1002120838.jpg)
RHP, in your last 2 photos, the trees didnt go in the direction of the notch (or it looks that way). If so, was it planned that way? It looks like what was left of the hinge pulled out or broke off before getting maximum aim.
Quote from: Lumberjohn on May 02, 2016, 09:37:52 AM
RHP, in your last 2 photos, the trees didnt go in the direction of the notch (or it looks that way). If so, was it planned that way? It looks like what was left of the hinge pulled out or broke off before getting maximum aim.
yes it did. he left only one side of a hinge, the face is where the tree fell. remember he is not useing that shallow GOL face.
That ash doesn't look like any fun! Nice job.
Pretty much run of the mill straight up and down spruce every day here. But I did find one that was leaning hard to the left with some stem and branch weight to the back so here's a not very exciting dutchman stump photo.
Kerf dutchman, Used a wedge to get it going nipped the right side of my pull wood when it was centered where I wanted it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37042/20160429_105837.jpg)
I ussually run a 32 on my 90cc and a 24 on the 70cc, I've been in a smaller diameter patch so Ive been having fun with a 20" on the 90 and wiked aggressive rakers. Rippin em down!
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on May 02, 2016, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: Lumberjohn on May 02, 2016, 09:37:52 AM
RHP, in your last 2 photos, the trees didnt go in the direction of the notch (or it looks that way). If so, was it planned that way? It looks like what was left of the hinge pulled out or broke off before getting maximum aim.
yes it did. he left only one side of a hinge, the face is where the tree fell. remember he is not useing that shallow GOL face.
Thanks Mike! How's the woods been lately? I think we are finally into warm season Logging. Ground is firming up.
Quote from: Plankton on May 02, 2016, 10:51:43 AM
That ash doesn't look like any fun! Nice job.
Pretty much run of the mill straight up and down spruce every day here. But I did find one that was leaning hard to the left with some stem and branch weight to the back so here's a not very exciting dutchman stump photo.
Kerf dutchman, Used a wedge to get it going nipped the right side of my pull wood when it was centered where I wanted it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37042/20160429_105837.jpg)
I ussually run a 32 on my 90cc and a 24 on the 70cc, I've been in a smaller diameter patch so Ive been having fun with a 20" on the 90 and wiked aggressive rakers. Rippin em down!
Sure is fun when it works isn't it! You forwarding any wood yet?
Quote from: RHP Logging on May 02, 2016, 07:01:25 PM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on May 02, 2016, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: Lumberjohn on May 02, 2016, 09:37:52 AM
RHP, in your last 2 photos, the trees didnt go in the direction of the notch (or it looks that way). If so, was it planned that way? It looks like what was left of the hinge pulled out or broke off before getting maximum aim.
yes it did. he left only one side of a hinge, the face is where the tree fell. remember he is not useing that shallow GOL face.
Thanks Mike! How's the woods been lately? I think we are finally into warm season Logging. Ground is firming up.
meh, i'm in small saw logs right now. its ok but truck break downs and now a week n half of rain is starting to get aggravating. thats loggin.
Quote from: RHP Logging on May 02, 2016, 07:04:25 PM
Quote from: Plankton on May 02, 2016, 10:51:43 AM
That ash doesn't look like any fun! Nice job.
Pretty much run of the mill straight up and down spruce every day here. But I did find one that was leaning hard to the left with some stem and branch weight to the back so here's a not very exciting dutchman stump photo.
Kerf dutchman, Used a wedge to get it going nipped the right side of my pull wood when it was centered where I wanted it.
I ussually run a 32 on my 90cc and a 24 on the 70cc, I've been in a smaller diameter patch so Ive been having fun with a 20" on the 90 and wiked aggressive rakers. Rippin em down!
Sure is fun when it works isn't it! You forwarding any wood yet?
Unfortunatly not, the bank said no...been self employed for less then 2 years so they wouldn't even think about it.
It's still for sale so still a possibility, at least now I know what kind I'll be looking for.
You been in good wood up there?
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on May 02, 2016, 07:32:09 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on May 02, 2016, 07:01:25 PM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on May 02, 2016, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: Lumberjohn on May 02, 2016, 09:37:52 AM
RHP, in your last 2 photos, the trees didnt go in the direction of the notch (or it looks that way). If so, was it planned that way? It looks like what was left of the hinge pulled out or broke off before getting maximum aim.
yes it did. he left only one side of a hinge, the face is where the tree fell. remember he is not useing that shallow GOL face.
Thanks Mike! How's the woods been lately? I think we are finally into warm season Logging. Ground is firming up.
meh, i'm in small saw logs right now. its ok but truck break downs and now a week n half of rain is starting to get aggravating. thats loggin.
Yep! I'm finishing a job where the ground doesn't matter. As soon as I get to the next one it will start raining or the skidder will break or both. Or maybe I will just get some serious work done.
Quote from: Plankton on May 02, 2016, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on May 02, 2016, 07:04:25 PM
Quote from: Plankton on May 02, 2016, 10:51:43 AM
That ash doesn't look like any fun! Nice job.
Pretty much run of the mill straight up and down spruce every day here. But I did find one that was leaning hard to the left with some stem and branch weight to the back so here's a not very exciting dutchman stump photo.
Kerf dutchman, Used a wedge to get it going nipped the right side of my pull wood when it was centered where I wanted it.
I ussually run a 32 on my 90cc and a 24 on the 70cc, I've been in a smaller diameter patch so Ive been having fun with a 20" on the 90 and wiked aggressive rakers. Rippin em down!
Sure is fun when it works isn't it! You forwarding any wood yet?
Unfortunatly not, the bank said no...been self employed for less then 2 years so they wouldn't even think about it.
It's still for sale so still a possibility, at least now I know what kind I'll be looking for.
You been in good wood up there?
Better wood this week. Nothing special. Should be moving by weeks end though.
Back slip. This tree was leaned up the hill and the way it wanted.to fall would have split the crotch and wrecked the last log. So in order to save it (and also take it easier on the residual stand) I slipped it back off the stump. Narrow face with most of the hinge gutted. I left maybe 2 inches of hinge on either side. The narrow face closes quickly allowing the hinge to break early which causes the tree to slip off the back of the stump. A low back cut is preferable. Mine is pretty crooked in the picture. Thats just a screw up due to an already long day. Anyway it worked perfectly and save out all the wood. Pretty fun to watch(I was 20 ft away as it did it). Will have to video one sometime. When the tree slips off the back it really takes the momentum away from he top where it normally would be and evely distributes it. Be smart about this one boys. This is short wood on not very steep ground. On tall trees on steep ground they will really come back off the stump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/IMG_20160515_201957.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463362221)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/IMG_20160515_202116.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463362192)
Pulling this topic back up just to get back into the swing of things, I honestly don't care much for summer, never have but its one of the four seasons up on the plains so I go with it.
Not much logging this summer but Woodchuck did cut and grab some ash, so we got it out, hauled it home and actually processed it. We got around 75 cords or so, anyway I always try to advance my skill with a saw so I watch these over and over, try a few during the year and actually enjoy making a few of them happen.
Safety is always first, ordered a different helmet and got a good pair of boots this year. Saws are all tuned up and I have a bunch of blades sharp and ready to go. Trailers are all worked over and skid goes in soon for a service, etc.
Thanks again to RHP Logging for this thread, he is a skilled professional who gives back and makes a difference!
LHL
RHP I'm gonna hafta take a vacation and come up there for lessons! Some of these are so hard to comprehend by reading and not much easier watching videos, none of us seem to have luxury of full camera crew on set lol. I love learning and challenges, but safety first. I can see how in every circumstance, different cuts are safer than others and I want to learn more and more! You could teach me more in 3 hours than I've already learned up to this point lol next week weather pending I'll be getting into some big butt white oaks. Most of the terrain is really reasonable and most of them are pretty straight. There's two or three I'm gonna pull my hair out over because there is not much room for error. They're on the edge of a pond, right next to a foot bridge over said pond, and within reach of a shelter house. Couple of them are leaning towards the pond of course as they're practically on the bank. Going in the drink isn't first preference especially if they hit the bridge. Hitting the shelter isn't an option. He said if they hit the bridge oh well, but that means I'm still fishing for them and I have no interest in that or in destroying the bridge. Maybe they'll just hafta stay. Soon as I get there I'll get pics and get your opinion. These are too big to safely pull with my mini machine. If they go with their lean it'll sling shot it into the pond with them. Most all the rest of them should be real easy drops on this job.
Maybe you should try jacking over some of the easy ones opposite their lean to decide if you are comfortable with jacking the pond trees.
Quote from: leeroyjd on November 03, 2016, 03:57:59 AM
Maybe you should try jacking over some of the easy ones opposite their lean to decide if you are comfortable with jacking the pond trees.
I'd thought about that! I've never used a jack before but it's definitely crossed my mind... Might hafta give that a go.
I don't know how big these trees are or how badly leaning. But you could try taking an extension ladder to get 30' up the trunk to increase your leverage when pulling them back. or you could use the cable to simply anchor them, then swing them sideways. But you probably already thought of all that. ??? Good luck!
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 03, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
I don't know how big these trees are or how badly leaning. But you could try taking an extension ladder to get 30' up the trunk to increase your leverage when pulling them back. or you could use the cable to simply anchor them, then swing them sideways. But you probably already thought of all that. ??? Good luck!
30" or so white oak, not leaning super bad but as heavy as they are it's a lot of weight shift. My mini skidder is about 4500# if cable is up 30' it's gonna pull it off the ground lol. I'm not sure yet. He really wants them gone.
The worst part if they get in the water it takes twice the pull to get them out. It feels like a suction every time I every pulled a top out of water. I always found taking my time of course the one thing I don't have.
Quote from: bigblue12v on November 03, 2016, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 03, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
I don't know how big these trees are or how badly leaning. But you could try taking an extension ladder to get 30' up the trunk to increase your leverage when pulling them back. or you could use the cable to simply anchor them, then swing them sideways. But you probably already thought of all that. ??? Good luck!
30" or so white oak, not leaning super bad but as heavy as they are it's a lot of weight shift. My mini skidder is about 4500# if cable is up 30' it's gonna pull it off the ground lol. I'm not sure yet. He really wants them gone.
Tractor don't weigh enough to pull them, not saying it can't or won't but I wouldn't. It probably would go over if you get tied off high enough, or you may just loose traction. At that point you have already faced and hinged...
Get some pics of lean and mass, and if there are any signs of a hollow stump or rot visible as they stand get pics of that as well. Almost impossible to really teach some of these methods on a keyboard... If it isn't an extreme leaner or rot where it needs to be solid it can be manipulated
Keep in mind that white oak splits easily. A little too much pull at the wrong time and you lose the most valuable part of the tree. Not enough pull and the tree takes the skidder for a ride.
will the landowner pay or pay part of the bill for a tree service to come in and take PART of the tops out of them? one time me and the LO split the bill to take the tops out of a few big Burr oaks around his house and it worked out fine. just somethin to consider.
4500#? That is a mini skidder. What brand or type is it? Have you posted any pics of it on this forum? I agree that would not be nearly enough to pull a tree with any size to it. It would be great to see a few pictures of these trees.
Brand new to the forum and was reading through this thread. I use a humboldt cut which to me would eliminate any need for a snipe also it eliminates the need for hinge wood. If you get your back cut to match the top of the face cut and do any boring if needed you can simply cut a your butt log with no need to clean up the butt.
Humboldt face means a fella don't need a hinge?
Notch only does so much, hold wood directs. Once directed then the notch comes into play.
What do I know, I usually neglect to implement either :D
to the pros here,......on splity white oak use the out side edges of the hinge to direct fall, it won't split in the sap wood. obviously don't do this on a back leaner or if you are unsure what i mean.
to the OP, like John said it is impossible for us to speculate with the limited info we have. pics would help, but not like being there. if you are very unsure, don't.
Thanks for the replies guys, got a couple days in on the job and found a weak link in my recent hydro to PTO winch conversion so I have all the parts together to fix and prevent from happening again. I've posted pics of the machine before, they're in my gallery. I converted A Vermeer v440 trencher. I'll get some pics of these trees first of the week but don't know if I can post them. I don't have any luck with the photo upload thing here and it's illegal to link to off site hosted photos I guess. Not sure why.
On white oak or any valuable tree, beyond blocking wood. I always nip the sap wood on my pull corner. Or if it is full hinged I nip both sides.
Keeps from pulling sapwood off of the butt log. I know it don't hurt the tree to rip some bark, but these buyers pick at every possible thing.
I get by with pulling fiber on a siswheel... So long as sap wood is intact and not ripped up the side
Quote from: so il logger on November 11, 2016, 11:21:56 PM
On white oak or any valuable tree, beyond blocking wood. I always nip the sap wood on my pull corner. Or if it is full hinged I nip both sides.
Keeps from pulling sapwood off of the butt log. I know it don't hurt the tree to rip some bark, but these buyers pick at every possible thing.
I get by with pulling fiber on a siswheel... So long as sap wood is intact and not ripped up the side
they would rather have fiber pulled in the heart than on the edges? weird buyers.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 12, 2016, 12:07:26 AM
Quote from: so il logger on November 11, 2016, 11:21:56 PM
On white oak or any valuable tree, beyond blocking wood. I always nip the sap wood on my pull corner. Or if it is full hinged I nip both sides.
Keeps from pulling sapwood off of the butt log. I know it don't hurt the tree to rip some bark, but these buyers pick at every possible thing.
I get by with pulling fiber on a siswheel... So long as sap wood is intact and not ripped up the
side
they would rather have fiber pulled in the heart than on the edges? weird buyers.
Not heart wood, but outer. My normal fiber pull from a swing tree is roughly fist size. Rarely does it pull from the tree. Out of the stump is fine.
I'm more aggressive as far as swing or turning a tree than most anyone in my area
Quote from: so il logger on November 12, 2016, 12:36:44 AM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 12, 2016, 12:07:26 AM
Quote from: so il logger on November 11, 2016, 11:21:56 PM
On white oak or any valuable tree, beyond blocking wood. I always nip the sap wood on my pull corner. Or if it is full hinged I nip both sides.
Keeps from pulling sapwood off of the butt log. I know it don't hurt the tree to rip some bark, but these buyers pick at every possible thing.
I get by with pulling fiber on a siswheel... So long as sap wood is intact and not ripped up the
side
they would rather have fiber pulled in the heart than on the edges? weird buyers.
Not heart wood, but outer. My normal fiber pull from a swing tree is roughly fist size. Rarely does it pull from the tree. Out of the stump is fine.
I'm more aggressive as far as swing or turning a tree than most anyone in my area
so am i. i hate picking up sticks out of a field or smz, so i learned how not to. most would just leave um.
Quote from: MWRILEY on November 11, 2016, 08:38:45 PM
Brand new to the forum and was reading through this thread. I use a humboldt cut which to me would eliminate any need for a snipe also it eliminates the need for hinge wood. If you get your back cut to match the top of the face cut and do any boring if needed you can simply cut a your butt log with no need to clean up the butt.
Sounds like stump jumping.
Quote from: bigblue12v on November 11, 2016, 11:17:07 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, got a couple days in on the job and found a weak link in my recent hydro to PTO winch conversion so I have all the parts together to fix and prevent from happening again. I've posted pics of the machine before, they're in my gallery. I converted A Vermeer v440 trencher. I'll get some pics of these trees first of the week but don't know if I can post them. I don't have any luck with the photo upload thing here and it's illegal to link to off site hosted photos I guess. Not sure why.
Get some good pics of different angles on those trees and I could probably steer you in the right direction.
Typically the pics I post on here are of extreme circumstances. Often when swinging a tree I saw it off the stump when I get it to where I want it. No fiber pull at all. For those that need to pull hard sometimes you need to leave that extra wood to hold and that the amount you leave is based on feeling really. Watching the tree move and being happy with how it's going. A snipe along with any face will help keep the pull from the stump rather then the butt.
This ash from the other day was hanging over the river to the left. The wood is brittle on these and it would be a big problem to lose it in the river. Also needed a wedge to get things going in the right direction. Normally i would snip this off the stump when it was where I needed it but I needed it to hang on. Butt cleaned off just fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/IMG_20161112_084034.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478961675)
rhp your hard head wedges look like mine do after some beating...steel is gone but they still have a lot of life left ;)
Quote from: bigblue12v on November 11, 2016, 11:17:07 PM
I'll get some pics of these trees first of the week but don't know if I can post them. I don't have any luck with the photo upload thing here and it's illegal to link to off site hosted photos I guess. Not sure why.
On the pictures. Ever been to another site and there is a red X in it's place? That is because he link is broken from there to it. Will only find a few red x's on here. That is why pictures are put in a gallery and than linked to your gallery. I rememeber you posted pictures of your trencher.
I am not very advanced, but I do enjoy reading about it all. I use the open face with boreing almost exclusively. Or like some have called it GOL the game of logging. It is the way I learned and I like the extra safety margin and control it gives me. But the real reason I am posting is these pictures. It is a good sized red oak along a driveway that I was opening up a bit for the owner. As you can see, it did not land where I had it aimed. It should have landed more toward where the skidder is currently sitting, but instead it broke the hinge part way down and went its own way. My question is, Is there a way that I could have kept it going where I aimed it? Or is there only so far off of heavy lean you can swing a tree. It had significant lean to the right on the picture. And red oak tends to be brittle too. Any thoughts? The second picture shows the large limb that added lots of sideways weight plus the whole tree had a lot of slant both to the right on pic, but also some forward weight too. I did pound a wedge in on the heavy side of the hinge to take some of the strain off the compression side. Don't know if it does much good, but I tried.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161507-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479001913)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161508-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479002326)
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 12, 2016, 09:03:02 PM
I am not very advanced, but I do enjoy reading about it all. I use the open face with boreing almost exclusively. Or like some have called it GOL the game of logging. It is the way I learned and I like the extra safety margin and control it gives me. But the real reason I am posting is these pictures. It is a good sized red oak along a driveway that I was opening up a bit for the owner. As you can see, it did not land where I had it aimed. It should have landed more toward where the skidder is currently sitting, but instead it broke the hinge part way down and went its own way. My question is, Is there a way that I could have kept it going where I aimed it? Or is there only so far off of heavy lean you can swing a tree. It had significant lean to the right on the picture. And red oak tends to be brittle too. Any thoughts? The second picture shows the large limb that added lots of sideways weight plus the whole tree had a lot of slant both to the right on pic, but also some forward weight too. I did pound a wedge in on the heavy side of the hinge to take some of the strain off the compression side. Don't know if it does much good, but I tried.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161507-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479001913)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161508-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479002326)
I use a version of GOL too but I heart out the center of the tree through the notch. I have noticed that when I leave a hinge across the whole stump I struggle to swing them much at all. if I bore out the heart and swing cut them starting on the heavy side and coming all the way around (while pounding a wedge on the heavy side and cutting slow) it works pretty good. no need to use a wedge much unless its really leanin hard. if theres not much forward lean I cut slow and let the tree move and then cut a little more and so on until she goes
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 12, 2016, 09:03:02 PM
I am not very advanced, but I do enjoy reading about it all. I use the open face with boreing almost exclusively. Or like some have called it GOL the game of logging. It is the way I learned and I like the extra safety margin and control it gives me. But the real reason I am posting is these pictures. It is a good sized red oak along a driveway that I was opening up a bit for the owner. As you can see, it did not land where I had it aimed. It should have landed more toward where the skidder is currently sitting, but instead it broke the hinge part way down and went its own way. My question is, Is there a way that I could have kept it going where I aimed it? Or is there only so far off of heavy lean you can swing a tree. It had significant lean to the right on the picture. And red oak tends to be brittle too. Any thoughts? The second picture shows the large limb that added lots of sideways weight plus the whole tree had a lot of slant both to the right on pic, but also some forward weight too. I did pound a wedge in on the heavy side of the hinge to take some of the strain off the compression side. Don't know if it does much good, but I tried.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161507-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479001913)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37360/1105161508-00.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479002326)
yes. but not with the gol method. face more like 1/3 into the stump, either a block face and much wedge pounding or a combo siswheel and soft dutchman. to help you understand what the funny named siswheel does, it works to swing by inletting the stump on one side in front of the hinge so the holding wood holds on longer and breaks out of the stump instead of the log. its like a half block face. you can try that, make a block and then cut the lean side off. understand, i do not believe any of the swing cuts will work well with the shallow face of GOL style falling.
Would a much thicker hinge (more holding wood) on the side you wanted it to move toward (side where skidder is) and cutting the hing to almost no, or no holding wood (as you did) on the left have helped?
square1,I would of tried the same thing. BUT there is 2 limbs,that I can see,on the wrong side of that tree.
i would agree that the deeper and wider hinge (notch) the better when swinging trees
It looks like you could have gotten away with a simple Dutchman on that. You cut the hinge off on the compression side and leave holding wood on the pull side. Like the ash I just posted above. Use a wedge to get it moving if stubborn. When you wedge a tree with a side lean and keep a full hinge the hinge on the compression side actually fights you. If you cut that side of the hinge off the tree can pivot using the holding wood on the pull side. Make sure you leave plenty of wood for the pull and nip a little at a time. Sometimes when the tree starts sitting ahead you need to cut some more from the face on the Dutchmen side. What I mean is the kerf will start to close on the Dutchman side in the face but the tree just stalls. Saw it again (be quick and careful about it so you don't pinch) and it will start to move forward again. Leave as much wood as you can on the pull side and only start cutting it as needed otherwise you will lose it to the lean. Also at least a third deep face and open up your pull corner so the fibers have room to move and not break off. The sizwheel is one way to open the pull corner to expose those fibers allowing them to bend even more.
What was the DBH of this tree, how thick and how long was the hinge?
I'm gonna guess mid 20's, hinge looks 1/2 to 3/4.
What I don't get is he said most of the lean was to the right but it went left?
Quote from: RHP Logging on November 14, 2016, 06:47:28 AM
What I don't get is he said most of the lean was to the right but it went left?
Wondered the same.
You guys ever put a "key way" in the stump? Keeps tree committed to intended direction. Maybe someone knows and can explain it better.
Just pulled off one of my most difficult swings. Backward lean mass, forward top mass to the road. Swing it with a Dutchman/Humbolt combo with 3 wedges backing her up. I will post the video this evening when I get in.
Quote from: CCC4 on November 13, 2016, 09:21:02 PM
I'm gonna guess mid 20's, hinge looks 1/2 to 3/4.
If those estimates are correct, that would explain why the hinge broke partway down on a side-leaning tree. A good rule of thumb is that the hinge thickness should be 10% of the DBH (and the hinge length should be 80% of the DBH). In this case, that would mean a 2" thick hinge.
That rule of thumb does sometimes need to be tweaked a bit. For example, when cutting Hickory with any significant degree of front lean, I go thinner on the hinge, due to Hickory's propensity to split (I also may bore out some of the center of the hinge, especially if the log is going for someting other than firewood).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160290)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095947.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160558)
Cutting a little higher than normal in this junky red oak. This one had to swing more than 90 degrees to not disturb young save trees. Pull is from stump
??? ??? ??? Ok, the jokes on me! I can't tell right from left! Oh well. Tree was well over 20" DBH. May have been 30" max. Hinge was about 3" maybe a bit less. I too use the 10% gauge. But that is a max thickness, I would understand. I tried the idea of a thicker hinge on the pull side on a small ash I cut today. Worked perfectly. Now just for a larger tree to try it on. After I thought about it, it makes sense that a full hinge would actually be counter productive. OH Logger, does it work better to have the thicker hinge on the pull side or does cutting the center of hinge out do the same thing? Seems to me that the center of the hinge could work like a fulcrum and actually increase stress on the pull side. Well, I will get plenty of chance to practice starting this week. I and 5 other fellows are going to start felling for pipeline right of way. This will be the 4th winter we've done it, so we are somewhat experienced. Pays good and can't be beat from a faller's stand point. You get to have all the fun of felling and NO cleanup or limbing. Plus no select cutting. Get it opened up and away you go. Just keep me out of the grapevine jungles. :)
I think this cut is advanced enough to go in this thread LOL! Back sweep body mass, Top lean to the highway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinoxNJXF-A
Quote from: so il logger on November 14, 2016, 05:01:45 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160290)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095947.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160558)
Cutting a little higher than normal in this junky red oak. This one had to swing more than 90 degrees to not disturb young save trees. Pull is from stump
block with lean side cut off to form a easy siswheel. did you have to start it with a wedge? i bet it held to the stump till at least 45 degrees.
Clint that was a short leaf right? really yellow wood makes me think it is, and the bark.
yep, dutchman humbolt combo. maybe less beatin with a soft dutchman but worked good. i beat on three wedges today in a pine that size, i honestly think bigger trees are easier to turn........the fat boy i didn't use a wedge at all, dutchmans closed up and he swung into the wheel pretty, no sweat.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 14, 2016, 10:14:48 PM
Quote from: so il logger on November 14, 2016, 05:01:45 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160290)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095947.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160558)
Cutting a little higher than normal in this junky red oak. This one had to swing more than 90 degrees to not disturb young save trees. Pull is from stump
block with lean side cut off to form a easy siswheel. did you have to start it with a wedge? i bet it held to the stump till at least 45 degrees.
I'm not sure if i even got wedges in the new truck yet. It held on to near 90, missed the intended fall by a bit because i got in a hurry to thin the pull corner. This is not at all how I normally swing, just experimenting
Quote from: so il logger on November 14, 2016, 11:05:57 PM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 14, 2016, 10:14:48 PM
Quote from: so il logger on November 14, 2016, 05:01:45 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160290)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095947.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160558)
Cutting a little higher than normal in this junky red oak. This one had to swing more than 90 degrees to not disturb young save trees. Pull is from stump
block with lean side cut off to form a easy siswheel. did you have to start it with a wedge? i bet it held to the stump till at least 45 degrees.
I'm not sure if i even got wedges in the new truck yet. It held on to near 90, missed the intended fall by a bit because i got in a hurry to thin the pull corner. This is not at all how I normally swing, just experimenting
it works. to break the hinge, only snipe the bottom or top. bottom will break it sooner, top later, both much later as you found out.
Quote from: so il logger on November 14, 2016, 05:01:45 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160290)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161114_095947.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479160558)
Cutting a little higher than normal in this junky red oak. This one had to swing more than 90 degrees to not disturb young save trees. Pull is from stump
Wait a minute! I thought we had different cutting styles?! ;D. A sizwheel will save you a lot of time and produce nearly the same results. Sometimes I do what I call a poor man's siz and I just open the pull corner by rounding it out with the saw. Glad to see you're experimenting! Usually takes crappy timber for that! Looks good!
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 14, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
??? ??? ??? Ok, the jokes on me! I can't tell right from left! Oh well. Tree was well over 20" DBH. May have been 30" max. Hinge was about 3" maybe a bit less. I too use the 10% gauge. But that is a max thickness, I would understand. I tried the idea of a thicker hinge on the pull side on a small ash I cut today. Worked perfectly. Now just for a larger tree to try it on. After I thought about it, it makes sense that a full hinge would actually be counter productive. OH Logger, does it work better to have the thicker hinge on the pull side or does cutting the center of hinge out do the same thing? Seems to me that the center of the hinge could work like a fulcrum and actually increase stress on the pull side. Well, I will get plenty of chance to practice starting this week. I and 5 other fellows are going to start felling for pipeline right of way. This will be the 4th winter we've done it, so we are somewhat experienced. Pays good and can't be beat from a faller's stand point. You get to have all the fun of felling and NO cleanup or limbing. Plus no select cutting. Get it opened up and away you go. Just keep me out of the grapevine jungles. :)
Or you could ditch the books and numbers, saw off the hinge wood on the compression side completely and use a pie shaped piece of hold wood on the pull side. :laugh:
Quote from: RHP Logging on November 15, 2016, 06:52:43 AMOr you could ditch the books and numbers, saw off the hinge wood on the compression side completely and use a pie shaped piece of hold wood on the pull side. :laugh:
Of course, that would negate the whole purpose of doing an open face with a bore cut in the first place, which is to give you directional control and set the hinge before it starts moving, then get away from the stump as it falls.
NOTE: The above is just an observation on the "open face w/borecut" style. It is not a criticism of those who use sizwheels, soft dutchmans, etc. If you are comfortable cutting that way, and don't have to deal with OSHA or some other safety police throwing you off a job, how you choose to cut is your business.
::)
Quote from: John Mc on November 15, 2016, 07:27:28 AM
Quote from: RHP Logging on November 15, 2016, 06:52:43 AMOr you could ditch the books and numbers, saw off the hinge wood on the compression side completely and use a pie shaped piece of hold wood on the pull side. :laugh:
Of course, that would negate the whole purpose of doing an open face with a bore cut in the first place, which is to give you directional control and set the hinge before it starts moving, then get away from the stump as it falls.
NOTE: The above is just an observation on the "open face w/borecut" style. It is not a criticism of those who use sizwheels, soft dutchmans, etc. If you are comfortable cutting that way, and don't have to deal with OSHA or some other safety police throwing you off a job, how you choose to cut is your business.
You can use a sizwheel or block face with a bore cut. You can even use a Dutchman but you better make sure all of your wood is cut off on the far side. One of the problems with the bore cutting method and steering trees is that you are letting all that momentum go at once. I'm pretty sure bore cutting is not the only OSHA approved cut out there. Cutting half the hinge off for OSHA is probably a no no, but then again if you lose the tree is that really safer? Not trying to start an argument just being constructive here.
What happened to my video? It's all blavk
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161115_103735.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479251810)
One from earlier today...... OSHA probably would frown on it :D
Quote from: CCC4 on November 15, 2016, 06:18:03 PM
What happened to my video? It's all blavk
still there for me
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 14, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
??? ??? ??? Ok, the jokes on me! I can't tell right from left! Oh well. Tree was well over 20" DBH. May have been 30" max. Hinge was about 3" maybe a bit less. I too use the 10% gauge. But that is a max thickness, I would understand. I tried the idea of a thicker hinge on the pull side on a small ash I cut today. Worked perfectly. Now just for a larger tree to try it on. After I thought about it, it makes sense that a full hinge would actually be counter productive. OH Logger, does it work better to have the thicker hinge on the pull side or does cutting the center of hinge out do the same thing? Seems to me that the center of the hinge could work like a fulcrum and actually increase stress on the pull side. Well, I will get plenty of chance to practice starting this week. I and 5 other fellows are going to start felling for pipeline right of way. This will be the 4th winter we've done it, so we are somewhat experienced. Pays good and can't be beat from a faller's stand point. You get to have all the fun of felling and NO cleanup or limbing. Plus no select cutting. Get it opened up and away you go. Just keep me out of the grapevine jungles. :)
not sure I even want to get involved in this one anymore but u asked and yes I DO have a thicker hinge on the pull side and If I have to I will stay at the stump and keep cutting on the pull hinge as its falling if its a valuable tree. and then escape quick fast and in a hurry ;). the only trouble I have with leaving little to no hinge on the compression side is I have done that (on accident) and had them spin on the stump and go where they wanted to go all along. how do you all avoid that if you leave no hinge on the compression side? I'm just trying to learn so I can add more arrows to my quiver. :D
Swinging a Water Oak this size can have it's fun factor. This tree would have overrode a full hinge because of shear weight on the compression side. It's roll, swing , spin...whatever ya wanna call it is what helped from hang up in the timber below and eliminated residual damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfjLmPgdr90
Quote from: OH logger on November 15, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 14, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
??? ??? ??? Ok, the jokes on me! I can't tell right from left! Oh well. Tree was well over 20" DBH. May have been 30" max. Hinge was about 3" maybe a bit less. I too use the 10% gauge. But that is a max thickness, I would understand. I tried the idea of a thicker hinge on the pull side on a small ash I cut today. Worked perfectly. Now just for a larger tree to try it on. After I thought about it, it makes sense that a full hinge would actually be counter productive. OH Logger, does it work better to have the thicker hinge on the pull side or does cutting the center of hinge out do the same thing? Seems to me that the center of the hinge could work like a fulcrum and actually increase stress on the pull side. Well, I will get plenty of chance to practice starting this week. I and 5 other fellows are going to start felling for pipeline right of way. This will be the 4th winter we've done it, so we are somewhat experienced. Pays good and can't be beat from a faller's stand point. You get to have all the fun of felling and NO cleanup or limbing. Plus no select cutting. Get it opened up and away you go. Just keep me out of the grapevine jungles. :)
not sure I even want to get involved in this one anymore but u asked and yes I DO have a thicker hinge on the pull side and If I have to I will stay at the stump and keep cutting on the pull hinge as its falling if its a valuable tree. and then escape quick fast and in a hurry ;). the only trouble I have with leaving little to no hinge on the compression side is I have done that (on accident) and had them spin on the stump and go where they wanted to go all along. how do you all avoid that if you leave no hinge on the compression side? I'm just trying to learn so I can add more arrows to my quiver. :D
Naw man, don't let the bickering discourage you. There are text book guys and then there are guys that cut everyday for a living. About the same as the difference between an engineer and the guy that builds it. Neither are wrong really, they just butt heads.
Personally on your tree I would have cut the compression side especially if that was the side with those 2 limbs. They overrode your hinge plain and simple. It happens on widespread canopy hardwood fairly easily.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on November 14, 2016, 10:23:05 PM
Clint that was a short leaf right? really yellow wood makes me think it is, and the bark.
yep, dutchman humbolt combo. maybe less beatin with a soft dutchman but worked good. i beat on three wedges today in a pine that size, i honestly think bigger trees are easier to turn........the fat boy i didn't use a wedge at all, dutchmans closed up and he swung into the wheel pretty, no sweat.
Yep, shortleaf. Well Mike with that much top lean at the road, I decided against the soft Dutchman because I was afraid it would take to it too much. The back lean sweep made me use the wedges, that tree had a lot going on and not a whole lot in my favor. LOL!
Quote from: CCC4 on November 15, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Naw man, don't let the bickering discourage you. There are text book guys and then there are guys that cut everyday for a living. About the same as the difference between an engineer and the guy that builds it. Neither are wrong really, they just butt heads.
Personally on your tree I would have cut the compression side especially if that was the side with those 2 limbs. They overrode your hinge plain and simple. It happens on widespread canopy hardwood fairly easily.
Bickering? My post was not intended to further the felling style wars. If you notice, I did not say one was better than the other. Just that Ohio Logger described using the open face and bore cut / "GOL" method. The point of this method of directional felling is to allow you to get away from the stump as soon as the tree starts moving. Yes, OSHA "likes" it. No, it's not the only way to safely drop a tree. No, I'm not saying it should be the only tool in your tool box.
What some less experienced people may miss in many of the descriptions of "swinging a tree" is that these methods carry significant risk. Yes, that risk can be managed by someone very experienced with them. The learning curve is steep, however, and the consequences of falling off that curve are significant. It's not something you learn by just reading about the technique and running out to practice it on your own. Since he started off his post saying "I'm not very advanced..." I just pointed this out.
There is a reason OSHA and many insurance companies do not like some of the styles of cuts. Staying at the stump is riskier, and they see their job as reducing risk. That risk could also be reduced by experience and training. Unfortunately, they are not able to judge who has the experience, skills and judgement to use the techniques without incident, so they try to throw a blanket ban on their use by anyone, including those who may well be able to use them safely.
If this came across to some of you as bickering, I apologize. However, I stand by my assertion that these cuts are not for everybody. Further, I don't think more or less of someone as a feller if they use various styles of cuts. You do what gets the job done for you, and more power to you.
Quote from: OH logger on November 15, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
Quote from: Ohio Logger on November 14, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
??? ??? ??? Ok, the jokes on me! I can't tell right from left! Oh well. Tree was well over 20" DBH. May have been 30" max. Hinge was about 3" maybe a bit less. I too use the 10% gauge. But that is a max thickness, I would understand. I tried the idea of a thicker hinge on the pull side on a small ash I cut today. Worked perfectly. Now just for a larger tree to try it on. After I thought about it, it makes sense that a full hinge would actually be counter productive. OH Logger, does it work better to have the thicker hinge on the pull side or does cutting the center of hinge out do the same thing? Seems to me that the center of the hinge could work like a fulcrum and actually increase stress on the pull side. Well, I will get plenty of chance to practice starting this week. I and 5 other fellows are going to start felling for pipeline right of way. This will be the 4th winter we've done it, so we are somewhat experienced. Pays good and can't be beat from a faller's stand point. You get to have all the fun of felling and NO cleanup or limbing. Plus no select cutting. Get it opened up and away you go. Just keep me out of the grapevine jungles. :)
not sure I even want to get involved in this one anymore but u asked and yes I DO have a thicker hinge on the pull side and If I have to I will stay at the stump and keep cutting on the pull hinge as its falling if its a valuable tree. and then escape quick fast and in a hurry ;). the only trouble I have with leaving little to no hinge on the compression side is I have done that (on accident) and had them spin on the stump and go where they wanted to go all along. how do you all avoid that if you leave no hinge on the compression side? I'm just trying to learn so I can add more arrows to my quiver. :D
if you don't cut the lean side off ya can't swing it. if it spins one the sump you left to little hinge. bear in mind, as i said before i don't think swing cuts will work as well with the really shallow face. they don't do as well with little sticks either as you just don't have enough meat to work with.....but those are easier to wedge any way.
Quote from: John Mc on November 15, 2016, 08:42:50 PM
Quote from: CCC4 on November 15, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Naw man, don't let the bickering discourage you. There are text book guys and then there are guys that cut everyday for a living. About the same as the difference between an engineer and the guy that builds it. Neither are wrong really, they just butt heads.
Personally on your tree I would have cut the compression side especially if that was the side with those 2 limbs. They overrode your hinge plain and simple. It happens on widespread canopy hardwood fairly easily.
Bickering? My post was not intended to further the felling style wars. If you notice, I did not say one was better than the other. Just that Ohio Logger described using the open face and bore cut / "GOL" method. The point of this method of directional felling is to allow you to get away from the stump as soon as the tree starts moving. Yes, OSHA "likes" it. No, it's not the only way to safely drop a tree. No, I'm not saying it should be the only tool in your tool box.
What some less experienced people may miss in many of the descriptions of "swinging a tree" is that these methods carry significant risk. Yes, that risk can be managed by someone very experienced with them. The learning curve is steep, however, and the consequences of falling off that curve are significant. It's not something you learn by just reading about the technique and running out to practice it on your own. Since he started off his post saying "I'm not very advanced..." I just pointed this out.
There is a reason OSHA and many insurance companies do not like some of the styles of cuts. Staying at the stump is riskier, and they see their job as reducing risk. That risk could also be reduced by experience and training. Unfortunately, they are not able to judge who has the experience, skills and judgement to use the techniques without incident, so they try to throw a blanket ban on their use by anyone, including those who may well be able to use them safely.
If this came across to some of you as bickering, I apologize. However, I stand by my assertion that these cuts are not for everybody. Further, I don't think more or less of someone as a feller if they use various styles of cuts. You do what gets the job done for you, and more power to you.
thank you for the clarification, and you are right, these are advanced falling methods. the very inexperienced should not be attempting swing cuts nor falling heavy head or back leaners. i think we as fallers are assuming these questions are coming from folks with at least some experience .......i hope any way.
Depending on severity of lean and how aggressive of placement a semi shallow face will work to a point. I started falling using a variation of a bore cut. It requires removing all the heavy side hinge, leaving maybe 25% on pull side. But this thread is titled as what it is. And these methods work well in a commercial setting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161115_101842.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479262687)
This depth face combined with a sis worked well this morning.
Quote from: so il logger on November 15, 2016, 09:20:08 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38699/IMG_20161115_101842.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479262687)
This depth face combined with a sis worked well this morning.
thats deep my friend. deep works, she goes quick from the back that deep.
Holy geez So I'll...where did ya even have room to put the Sizwheel? Lmbo! That's D E E P!!! LOL!!! 😳
Deep like the minds of Minolta!
Bad angle of pic I suppose. I'd guess it at 40% depth. Side closest to me was heavy side
Quote from: so il logger on November 15, 2016, 11:28:28 PM
Bad angle of pic I suppose. I'd guess it at 40% depth. Side closest to me was heavy side
Most of my faces are 40-50%. It's when I get carried away and they start looking more like 60%+ I'm like wow I better settle down.
It's not uncommon for the eye of the heart to be in the wedge removed from the face :)
Yep. From today. Pretty typical stump of mine when I'm not trying to swing something. Flat ground conventional. About 30" ash.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/IMG_20161116_194715.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479347311)
Ohio logger- this is how you swing red oak!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/hardpull.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479347823)
Butt cleaned up
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37560/hardpullclean.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479347861)
Rhp
Nice stumps. Love that root flair swing on the red. Your videos on YouTube have been pulled? What's the deal? Do you have a channel otherwise accessible?
Cheers
Thanks! I deleted that account. I'm going to be putting up a new one under the same username as I have here when I get the time.
RHP, I love it. I wish I could do it over and try it on that tree. I suppose there is a point that there is just too much side weight, and I would guess that tree had to be close, but I would like to try it. I have been having a lot of fun swinging some small (18" and less) cherry on our pipeline job. I don't see why the open face notch is a down side to swinging trees. Can someone explain why you would use such a narrow notch as some of these pics show. I don't really want any tree coming free from the stump for as long as possible. A lot of my trees with flexible wood will stay attached the whole way to the ground. Now when a body is select cutting, that is not always a good thing. I am not knocking what you are doing. More just curious. I typically get close to that 70 to 90 degree notch ( usually closer to 70), but I cheat. I angle my bottom cut up from the bottom a lot of time. That lessens the amount of cutting down on top of the grain which is a real pain.
I like OH Logger's post about experience v. Osha. I agree 100%. As far as my own experience level, I have been in the woods more or less full time for about 5 years. But my experience on the pipeline work has probably increased my number of tree cut far more than years would indicate. Although they would average a good bit smaller than most loggers. We are cutting everything 3" and up. Plus with power lines and roadways, it can test your skill a good bit. I like this thread even though I don't understand exactly how to do some of these cuts, I get the gist of what you do and can see how it would work. While I am not comfortable with these cuts, someday I aspire to at least being able to use them occasionally. Good luck and be safe!
I reread this thread every so often and grasp a bit more each time. The production rates quoted by some guys here astound me, and make me realize im slow as mollasses.
GOL is my thing but it can be a real bear levering some of them over against the lean and you really are trusting you have the weight figured right in the setup, which ive figured wrong a time or three. Nothing makes my heart pound like furiously beating wedges after ive already nipped the trigger and the tree is just sitting there contemplating its crash toward earth while im choosing between beat wedges or beat feet. Those are the moments that make me consider moving away from GOL on some trees that look noncommital on direction.
Im getting more comfortable with deeper and narrower notches to help undermine the trees balance in my favor, and it has helped, but still skiddish about getting away from wedges. I use a bunch.
Ive gotten a handful of leaners to go 90* from the head lean using a tapered dutchman hinge with the compression wood cut out but i still use wedges to keep from pinching the bar, then pound on them to get the fall started. Its still a static felling though, i cant make a tree question mark its way through the canopy on command while live cutting through the fall. Any time i try i screw it up and take 3x as long.
Heres a 30" stump cut using a dutchman that went about 15* shy of the full swing target, the stem landed perpendicular to the notch but i wanted it to pull a little further from that wood pile to the open spot . Would a little more hold wood have done that or do i need to cut ramps in the notch?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0725171212.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501293981)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0725171246.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501295319)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0725171246c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501295781)
The lean was onto the wedges toward a neighbors house, and also up hill opposite the pie tab.
read up on the siswheel. on oak, use it with a soft dutchman, also i deepen the wheel on oak for a little more flex.
Hope RHP LOGGING is still around. I have learned some cool tricks off his posts for sure. Sounded like he may have got offended and left the forum...hope not
Anyways been in some decent red oak.
First set is a siswheel setup on a leaner. Saved out the regen and the tree (not me in the photo but my falling partner willy)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18183/20170727_102934.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501332735)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18183/20170727_103845.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501332773)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18183/20170727_104106.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501332758)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18183/20170727_142906.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501332765)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18183/20170620_150918.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1501332786)
Cheers
So is the siswheel just a big clearance cutout for a fat hold tab to flex more before coming off?
I've wondered a lot about a lot of the siswheel pictures I see on here. It's always hard to tell from photos what the real situation is - nothing replaces being there in person. Jut from the pictures, it looks as though a lot of these could be done by using a standard notch and just aiming the tree in the appropriate direction. Are some of these being done "for fun" or for practice, or is there something I'm not seeing in the pictures, or do some of you just prefer using a siswheel to using a standard notch and perhaps needing a wedge to drive it over?
The siswheel is not for fun. We are full time loggers. It is a tool in a directional felling plan. We use Gol methods on most of these trees. The big oak with the sis wheel was leaning heavy downhill with beauty save trees in its path. The notch was aimed 30 degrees above the intended lay.
A siswheel is just elongating your hinge wood on one side (the side you want to hold and swing the tree. It allows it to bend and hold not just break as the notch closes. It can be done very successfully with bore cutting. It is more effective not bore cutting (ie chasing the backcut) but if set up right it works fine with gol methods.
Every tree is different and only time and experience can teach you how to assess the right tools to use on each tree.
I know what a siswheel is. What I was asking is whether some of the videos posted were more for demonstration purposes, since what I can see from pictures it looks as though some of them could fall in a straight line, rather than needing to redirect on the way down. I do realize a lot of this is probably just because the photos don't do it justice.
What would be really cool is to see a split frame video of a siswheel: one from the normal ground level, and one from an overhead drone showing the path of the fall (perhaps with some graphics added like the commentators do on the football replays).
Johnmc
The job I am on now is 1 hr 40 min. From you. Pm if you ever want to take a field trip. See some cuts look at stumps. I'm sure we both have plenty to learn and share
Quote from: chep on July 29, 2017, 02:49:01 PM
Johnmc
The job I am on now is 1 hr 40 min. From you. Pm if you ever want to take a field trip. See some cuts look at stumps. I'm sure we both have plenty to learn and share
PM sent
chep, tell your pard good job on the wheel. it broke out of the stump so i assume it went as intended. btw, i prefer to use it with a humolt notch, i just feel like it steers better......could be all in my head.
yes Mike B it is intended to hold one side and flex so it pulls the tree into the face.
John, it absolutely will bring a stick around and with out pounding wedges. i learned to do this on jobs where every stick was leaning toward a smz or property line. you get really tired of relentless pounding. the very few times i got to watch the top [usually running away] it really does pivot around in a half circle, hence the wheel term. caution to guys not used to these methods, it is imperative all your cuts match precisely, otherwise it will not hold. i can't stress this enough, it will not work with any sort of over cut any where. remember i learned to do these through trial and error and tips from west coast fallers and one in the mid west lol. there is no one here to learn from. so i know exactly what it takes for it to fail.
Mike B, since i know you are experimenting with these cuts, i must caution you on that face cut, i couldn't get away with that in whits oak here. i would made that humbolt much steeper. the oak here can be splitty, so take my advise for the suggestion that it is........i just don't want to read about one chairing on ya. of course you will end up with a taller stump.
Thanks for mentioning.
Do you really think the notch is that much of the recipe for barber chair? I was having them all the time when i first started cutting culls on my homestead, actually started a thread on this forum called white oak barberchairs and got lots of good advice.. Have cut about 70 trees since without issue.
Gutting out the center and reducing the hinge down to the minimum seems to have eliminated it. I havent made a connection to facecuts and BCs.
it really depends on the wood. gutting will usually eliminate chairs. i just prefer a steeper face.
I would like to thank John Vader for his diagrams on felling. Made a significant difference in how I cut.
This was a multi-stem Red Alder with a hard lean. Firewood tree so I was not concerned with pull out nor lost length. The stump is sitting up in the air so it will get get cut into camp fire wood. Has a little heart rot which I expected.
Red Alder is well know to barber chair, so I use a fresh chain so I can cut quickly. I fell this in the direction of the lean. I like this cutting technique to avoid barber chairing.
1st cut - wedge.
2nd cut - plunge cut, cut forward to make the hinge then back. Left a thick holding strap.
3rd cut - 24" bar wasn't long enough so I cut the buttress.
4th (felling)cut - Cut the holding strap well above the plunge cut, from the back toward the center.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36370/Stump_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1521316592)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36370/Stump_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1521316767)
I been developing my own cut for leaners that must go sideways of their lean and cannot risk having them miss the mark. I call it the whole enchilada and its a blend of almost every trick i ever saw put into a stump. I will aim to explain it clear enough for novice cutters to gain some understanding of the forces at play here. I apologize for how wordy this will probably be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1003181525-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541800073)
view from a treehouse deer stand, of shooting lane over my skid road to a run that crosses my landing. Those two curvy white oaks in center had to go and wanted to eat the boundary fence, which i couldnt afford but didnt want to climb and leash these out of laziness i guess. I put one down exactly where it was supposed to go with this funky cut, then went and got the phone for pics of the same setup on number 2 to explain it.
The pic below is of the first tree and the stack of face pieces. The top one is the standard notch i started with, then the block face i changed to, and finally the siswheel clearance tab below. Atleast thats the way i understand the terminology, maybe im wrong but theres no SAE nomenclature on these things. Dont ask me who came up with "siswheel" for a name or who decides whats right or wrong. You can call it a tootsie roll if you want, i dont care.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181605a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541517752)
So in goes the blockface and a half the siswheel chunk.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181608.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541517510)
Then the rest of the siswheel comes out and a bore cut goes through but not parallel to the notch, its tapered in the swing dutchman style, more on this in a minute.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181609.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541478273)
So thats a blockface above a triangular 'siswheel' clearance cut. The blockface makes it so that the face pieces never actually close, atleast on this diameter tree and face depth... And it exposed a length of fiber so that the hinge fibers bend over a more gentle radius rather than snapping over a short radius. A face notch closing is what forces the hinge wood to tear and turn the tree loose during its fall. So your notch face angles control the timing of closure and hinge tearout. In this case i wanted zero tearout and was willing to injure the buttlog to ensure that the stump controlled it all the way to the ground.
But then again a barberchair is never good right? Too much hingewood resisting the top's gravity seems *in my opinion* be what causes them. The top says im going and the stump says youre staying. The buttlog says i hate when you two fight and blows apart. So the challenge is selecting cuts that keep the top from following its gravitational lean, and keep the top on your target despite that lean, but undermine the stumps ability to chair the buttlog. Its complicated!
The fibers that the siswheel exposes are the hold wood keeping the tree from choosing to obey gravity instead of your wedges and its such a critcal concept, i hope im explaining this well. There is so much lean that half the tree is in compression and half is in tension. This tension side fiber is whats holding your tree up against gravity's evil clutches. The magic hold tab. You can cut out all the compression side of the hinge and it wont matter, but too little hold wood is a disaster. the tension fibers furthest from the center have more influence than do those closest to the center so we give them the most room to breath, hence the wedged shape of the siswheel. It took me a long time to get that.
a "swing dutchman" hinge is used to put almost all the fibers of your hinge on the tension side that hold your leaner up. You are cutting away compression fibers and leaving extra thickness among the tension fibers. It looks like a pie cut left on the stump after the tree is felled. Again the siswheel pie cut right there below the blockface is to give this hold tab a lot of fiber length, which creates the freedom of movement for the tab to bend instead of snapping. another little detail that gives the stump a longer retention time before tearout.
Enhancing this tab flexibility is that bore cut going in behind the tab. [I stole it from logger wades "triple hinge." I prefer a single bore to box the swing dutchman tab, wade does 2 bore cuts to make a 3 piece tab.] Running the bore slit down toward the roots a bit lets the hold tab peel away and flex even more.
Now on the compression side im severing the hinge line to make the pie shape. Note that vertical strap of tension wood. critical.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181610.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541820245)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181610a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541472193)
then i put in one wedge, cut some more and get a 2nd wedge.. Really pound them both in and finally go back to whittle a bit more on the tab until she goes over.
First one down.. Aiming second one at the first..
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181606.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525882)
Jackpot.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181625.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525970)
Landing exactly perpendicular to the notch face, no rotation, no drifting off the mark, no barberchair, no significant fiber pull in the buttlog and really not even a broken top or a bang. This is the slowest, most boring fall you ever saw, its as slow as a wet ground uprooting. The buttlog does not sever from the stump. You have to cut it free after and trim up the last few inches.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181602a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525900)
Stuck wedges into the kerfs to illustrate the planes of bore cut
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541518580)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541518770)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541519151)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541477877)
*please note*
This is not a swing cut. Its just another way to get a heavy leaner to go left or right instead of straight forward toward its lean. But its easy on the sawlogs and pretty safe for a novice IMO.
Say the lean is straight north and you want the top to lay straight west and to do it gently, this will works well, and youd set your aiming sights exactly west.
If you first needed to bend north for clearance before circling west youd have to add in the ultrasoft part of a swing dutchman, which im not great at.
If you wanted the north leaner to land south west youd probably have to throw it off the stump by tearing the hinge mid flight. So for that, regular notches timed to close sooner is probably the ticket. I think youd have a hard time aiming the notch much beyond 90 degrees off the lean and still getting the tree started with just wedges.
But if you set a regular notch plus siswheel and borecut for extra flex, your hold tab will stay attached as the compression side of the hinge breaks while leaning west. That last bit of south side fiber will hang on longer and give a southern pull to tug this westward fall to southwest. It may not land exactly as controlled as it would staying attached to stump, but you can only do so much with a chainsaw i reckon.
Anyway, just one more thing for the toolbox
Quote from: mike_belben on November 13, 2018, 10:27:35 AM
I been developing my own cut for leaners that must go sideways of their lean and cannot risk having them miss the mark. I call it the whole enchilada and its a blend of almost every trick i ever saw put into a stump. I will aim to explain it clear enough for novice cutters to gain some understanding of the forces at play here. I apologize for how wordy this will probably be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1003181525-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541800073)
view from a treehouse deer stand, of shooting lane over my skid road to a run that crosses my landing. Those two curvy white oaks in center had to go and wanted to eat the boundary fence, which i couldnt afford but didnt want to climb and leash these out of laziness i guess. I put one down exactly where it was supposed to go with this funky cut, then went and got the phone for pics of the same setup on number 2 to explain it.
The pic below is of the first tree and the stack of face pieces. The top one is the standard notch i started with, then the block face i changed to, and finally the siswheel clearance tab below. Atleast thats the way i understand the terminology, maybe im wrong but theres no SAE nomenclature on these things. Dont ask me who came up with "siswheel" for a name or who decides whats right or wrong. You can call it a tootsie roll if you want, i dont care.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181605a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541517752)
So in goes the blockface and a half the siswheel chunk.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181608.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541517510)
Then the rest of the siswheel comes out and a bore cut goes through but not parallel to the notch, its tapered in the swing dutchman style, more on this in a minute.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181609.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541478273)
So thats a blockface above a triangular 'siswheel' clearance cut. The blockface makes it so that the face pieces never actually close, atleast on this diameter tree and face depth... And it exposed a length of fiber so that the hinge fibers bend over a more gentle radius rather than snapping over a short radius. A face notch closing is what forces the hinge wood to tear and turn the tree loose during its fall. So your notch face angles control the timing of closure and hinge tearout. In this case i wanted zero tearout and was willing to injure the buttlog to ensure that the stump controlled it all the way to the ground.
But then again a barberchair is never good right? Too much hingewood resisting the top's gravity seems *in my opinion* be what causes them. The top says im going and the stump says youre staying. The buttlog says i hate when you two fight and blows apart. So the challenge is selecting cuts that keep the top from following its gravitational lean, and keep the top on your target despite that lean, but undermine the stumps ability to chair the buttlog. Its complicated!
The fibers that the siswheel exposes are the hold wood keeping the tree from choosing to obey gravity instead of your wedges and its such a critcal concept, i hope im explaining this well. There is so much lean that half the tree is in compression and half is in tension. This tension side fiber is whats holding your tree up against gravity's evil clutches. The magic hold tab. You can cut out all the compression side of the hinge and it wont matter, but too little hold wood is a disaster. the tension fibers furthest from the center have more influence than do those closest to the center so we give them the most room to breath, hence the wedged shape of the siswheel. It took me a long time to get that.
a "swing dutchman" hinge is used to put almost all the fibers of your hinge on the tension side that hold your leaner up. You are cutting away compression fibers and leaving extra thickness among the tension fibers. It looks like a pie cut left on the stump after the tree is felled. Again the siswheel pie cut right there below the blockface is to give this hold tab a lot of fiber length, which creates the freedom of movement for the tab to bend instead of snapping. another little detail that gives the stump a longer retention time before tearout.
Enhancing this tab flexibility is that bore cut going in behind the tab. [I stole it from logger wades "triple hinge." I prefer a single bore to box the swing dutchman tab, wade does 2 bore cuts to make a 3 piece tab.] Running the bore slit down toward the roots a bit lets the hold tab peel away and flex even more.
Now on the compression side im severing the hinge line to make the pie shape. Note that vertical strap of tension wood. critical.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181610.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541820245)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181610a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541472193)
then i put in one wedge, cut some more and get a 2nd wedge.. Really pound them both in and finally go back to whittle a bit more on the tab until she goes over.
First one down.. Aiming second one at the first..
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181606.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525882)
Jackpot.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181625.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525970)
Landing exactly perpendicular to the notch face, no rotation, no drifting off the mark, no barberchair, no significant fiber pull in the buttlog and really not even a broken top or a bang. This is the slowest, most boring fall you ever saw, its as slow as a wet ground uprooting. The buttlog does not sever from the stump. You have to cut it free after and trim up the last few inches.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181602a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541525900)
Stuck wedges into the kerfs to illustrate the planes of bore cut
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541518580)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541518770)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541519151)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105181603b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541477877)
Mike,
That was a very informative and well- constructed post. Thanks.
I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198199)
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump. His first attempt to drop the tree. Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198318)
This one brought it down. It fell toward the first attempt above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198505)
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.
Quote from: Magicman on November 13, 2018, 07:02:03 PM
I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198199)
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump. His first attempt to drop the tree. Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198318)
This one brought it down. It fell toward the first attempt above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198505)
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.
I feel a bit better now. That's worse than the ugly stump I left a couple weeks ago :^D No pics cause I already destroyed the evidence :^D I mangled it so bad, I had 5 wedges stuck in the back, and still couldn't get it to go over. I recut the face, and nipped the sides. Then it literally took a tap with my hatchet to send it over. Right where I wanted, but with 600% more effort than it should have been.
Next tree I'm gonna premark every cut, and pay close attention to the bar. I seem to have a problem judging level with the saw.
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 26, 2016, 11:11:30 PM
Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
So you bore cut everything? You ever think about why? I cut all hardwood too. Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production. I did several years ago. Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing. You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump. Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood. Not knockin what you do. I mean think about other options in the best possible way. It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to. Whether in the face or the back cut. Food for thought like I said. Not raggin on your style.
When the first cat face is 8' 6" off the ground, you don't leave a stump.
Quote from: lxskllr on November 13, 2018, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Magicman on November 13, 2018, 07:02:03 PM
I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198199)
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump. His first attempt to drop the tree. Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198318)
This one brought it down. It fell toward the first attempt above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198505)
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.
I feel a bit better now. That's worse than the ugly stump I left a couple weeks ago :^D No pics cause I already destroyed the evidence :^D I mangled it so bad, I had 5 wedges stuck in the back, and still couldn't get it to go over. I recut the face, and nipped the sides. Then it literally took a tap with my hatchet to send it over. Right where I wanted, but with 600% more effort than it should have been.
Next tree I'm gonna premark every cut, and pay close attention to the bar. I seem to have a problem judging level with the saw.
Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.
Magicman - I'm having trouble figuring out what his plan was in that first photo. What's going on with that big diagonal cut?
Quote from: John Mc on November 13, 2018, 10:51:15 PM
What's going on with that big diagonal cut?
It was the start of a funeral procession.
Either his bar is completely smoked or hes got a 050 gauge chain on a 063 bar. Thats a lotta scallop.
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 13, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 26, 2016, 11:11:30 PM
Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
So you bore cut everything? You ever think about why? I cut all hardwood too. Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production. I did several years ago. Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing. You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump. Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood. Not knockin what you do. I mean think about other options in the best possible way. It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to. Whether in the face or the back cut. Food for thought like I said. Not raggin on your style.
When the first cat face is 8' 6" off the ground, you don't leave a stump.
Loggers in my area have a saying: "an inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown." Loosely translated: "it's usually worth it to cut a low stump". Sure, there are exceptions, but it doesn't really take them any longer, and you have more options when bucking the log later.
About 50% of the time i go after a low stump, i end up cutting a dirt chimney inside. So i really only do it now if the tree is in a travel lane ill have to drive over, or the buttlog is nice, or theres a defect up above that im trying to get one clear log out from under. Some kinda half decent reason required to fill my sprocket tip bearing with mud.
On my land i leave em high now along the skid trail. They make great posts to redirect a winch cable or bumpers to protect keep trees. The stumps bush out and feed deer.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 13, 2018, 11:34:16 PM
Quote from: John Mc on November 13, 2018, 10:51:15 PM
What's going on with that big diagonal cut?
It was the start of a funeral procession.
I am just glad that I was not there but I am glad that I took the picture. :o
Mike - Very good explanation on what you did on each step and why. Allows a better understanding of many complex cuts. Thanks
gg
thanks.. I had to mess up a lot of little culls to really understand the whats and whys. Figured it might save someone grief or injury.
Oh hey.. I forgot that i uploaded a sketch of the layout. Its hard to "see it" all in writing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1105182035-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541472094)
Quote from: Skeans1 on November 13, 2018, 09:49:03 PM
Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.
It was softwood. A mitigating factor was I brought it down from the top, and left a 12' spar, so I didn't have much top weight to work with. It also had a moderate lean at 8 o'clock if my fall direction was at 1 o'clock, but the main problem was my terrible cuts.
I can intellectualize the process, and pick out good stumps and bad stumps, which has become a hobby for me this year. I know *what* to do, but as I wrote in another thread, thinking isn't the same as doing. My single biggest problem is not controlling my bar. What looks like level to me, isn't. That's why I want to mark my cuts on the tree, then follow them. I think that'll help visualizing and feeling what the saw should be like while following the correct cut path.
I have forever. None of this is a job, so speed isn't an issue. Once I get the accuracy down, I'll work on speed. All for personal satisfaction. There's nobody to judge but myself.
You need glasses?
I learned from my Father. A hard teacher,but I know how to bring down a tree. We cut wood here for logs,sawmill. His last few years,we had some discussions about trees and straight cuts. Sometimes he was great and sometimes he was way off and I would just jump in and do it. He was kinda bull headed,but when it was down on the ground,excatly,where I said it would go,he would say,I would of never thought it would go that way. As I would tell him,I just use,what you taught me. Even sometimes cutting logs out, his cuts would be at a sharp angle.Not top to bottom,but from side to side.
Yea, I do need glasses. This particular tree was the one I created my "climbing" thread about. I said it was all dead except for some green at the top. That green at the top was Virginia creeper. Blind :^D
I have glasses though, and while I need to get a new prescription, I don't think that's the issue. I dog into the tree, say "Yep, that looks good", and start cutting. Step around to the other side, and it's "Oh..."
I've said,oh,a few times too. :o I can still hear my Father say,If you can't see,step around to the other side of the DanG tree. I can still hear him say that as I check myself today. ;D And many other words too.
We had some trees that was an easy 3 feet across,there was many 4 feet across. I was waving around a 28 inch bars on those big ones. We would knock down a bunch on my last day off and he would limb and buck for 4 days. Than we would twitch wood for 3 days and start felling on the 4th day and start all over again.
Memories.
We was on a steep hill,horseback,he had cut trees in this situation before. I never had. A 3 foot white pine. I did what I always did,tree started to fall and that tree left the stump and I think flew through the air about 10 feet,while it felt like 10 feet and all I heard was a woosh what seemed like 5 minutes and than the tree hit the ground. WOW!!! Never seen anything like it. My father was all smiles. He knew I would get a kick out of it.
Than I kept backing into the same spot to twitch the logs out. It was a wet hole and I do mean wet. The last time I backed in the right rear tire of the tractor went out of sight. And I do mean out of sight. The front left was way up in the air. Not a good thing. But the tractor came right out. Lucky.
Video links don't seem to work anymore. I'd like to see a video of a GOL cut on a good leaner if anyone has a video. Also does everyone use this cut for softwood too? Seems the discussion is mostly centered around hardwood. Most folks out here do production cutting in oversize softwood so things are done just a little bit differently, or rather with different goals. Not too many people are worried about veneer logs etc.
Quote from: lxskllr on November 13, 2018, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Magicman on November 13, 2018, 07:02:03 PM
I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198199)
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump. His first attempt to drop the tree. Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198318)
This one brought it down. It fell toward the first attempt above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198505)
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.
I feel a bit better now. That's worse than the ugly stump I left a couple weeks ago :^D No pics cause I already destroyed the evidence :^D I mangled it so bad, I had 5 wedges stuck in the back, and still couldn't get it to go over. I recut the face, and nipped the sides. Then it literally took a tap with my hatchet to send it over. Right where I wanted, but with 600% more effort than it should have been.
Next tree I'm gonna premark every cut, and pay close attention to the bar. I seem to have a problem judging level with the saw.
at least you didn't have 5 saws stuck in it :D
Quote from: lxskllr on November 14, 2018, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on November 13, 2018, 09:49:03 PM
Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.
It was softwood. A mitigating factor was I brought it down from the top, and left a 12' spar, so I didn't have much top weight to work with. It also had a moderate lean at 8 o'clock if my fall direction was at 1 o'clock, but the main problem was my terrible cuts.
I can intellectualize the process, and pick out good stumps and bad stumps, which has become a hobby for me this year. I know *what* to do, but as I wrote in another thread, thinking isn't the same as doing. My single biggest problem is not controlling my bar. What looks like level to me, isn't. That's why I want to mark my cuts on the tree, then follow them. I think that'll help visualizing and feeling what the saw should be like while following the correct cut path.
I have forever. None of this is a job, so speed isn't an issue. Once I get the accuracy down, I'll work on speed. All for personal satisfaction. There's nobody to judge but myself.
What length of bar? What dawgs on the saw? A larger set of dawgs can help you find level same with a slightly nose heavy set up you can feel level.
Quote from: Skeans1 on November 14, 2018, 11:02:10 PM
What length of bar? What dawgs on the saw? A larger set of dawgs can help you find level same with a slightly nose heavy set up you can feel level.
I used my 362cm with a 25" bar, and the standard dawgs. It's definitely nose heavy. That bar's really too long for the saw, but it was purchased for a specific project, and I'm not otherwise often cutting big wood. I suppose that could change in the future. This time last year, I'd have never guessed I'd own all the gear I now possess.
I'll look into bigger dawgs. My boss' farm is gonna be my next project, and there's some sizable trees he mentioned wanting down. There's a lot of practice available there to get things right.
I'd call that still short if it was mine I'd run a 28 with square chain if it has a hard time pulling the chain. My 562 runs a 32 with semi skip on it in 5' wood.
Dang thats a lotta bar on a 60cc saw.
way too much IMO, or are you just in softwood?
Quote from: teakwood on November 16, 2018, 07:08:39 AM
way too much IMO, or are you just in softwood?
We have both hard and softwood in Oregon, there's some ash, red alder, Maple, Oak, beech. It comes down to chain prep.
Mike is the new advanced falling technique teacher
:D
Man, how things change
Looked to me like he was trying to get this conversation started back up, and I'm glad he did. Falling trees is my favorite part of logging. Every tree is a challenge, and nothing is more satisfying than dropping a difficult tree right where you planned. I really enjoy seeing what others are doing... what worked... what didn't... and more important is why.
I grew up learning from Dad and later with Mom's brother. They were both good, but I had limited exposure to other styles. Found out how really good they were once I learned to read stumps and saw what other "professionals" were doing. I'm sure these guys had limited training and mostly learned from experience. If they lived long enough.
I enjoyed reading Mike's post. The way he explained it allowed me to visualize each step he took, and why he did it. Definitely didn't disagree with any of them. It may have been more complicated than what I would have done, but being simple minded limits me somewhat. ;)
Keep this thread going boys.
Quote from: so il logger on November 17, 2018, 01:37:30 AM
Mike is the new advanced falling technique teacher
:D
Man, how things change
Ironic no? im a housewife sitting around on rainy days with enough time on my hands to type it out while the real men go work. I figure its good for everyone if it prevents just one tax payer funeral.
The lord put me here for something and i think it was to teach. I cant stand not understanding intricate details, and i cant feel like ive learned a thing until i can successfully teach it to someone else. The business i sold to buy this homestead in cash, began with trying to understand the phase angle relationship between camshafts and crankshafts. Then making a tool and teaching others to degree cams and understand the significance of valve events on power curves. I just kept going from there.. question, ponder, experiment, document, explain.
Maybe i should write a book on felling techniques and buy a nicer place! :D
If you write a book on feeling techniques I will buy you one ! I am like MILL always interested to see like other are putting down trees. Keep on writing
Quote from: mike_belben on November 17, 2018, 02:06:24 PM
Quote from: so il logger on November 17, 2018, 01:37:30 AM
Mike is the new advanced falling technique teacher
:D
Man, how things change
Maybe i should write a book on felling techniques and buy a nicer place! :D
Same here
But honestly I hope you don't. Plenty of seasoned fallers out there that are capable of writing the book.
No offense
Here's how a sizwheel really works.
https://youtu.be/Y8bA-Iyef4w (https://youtu.be/Y8bA-Iyef4w)
https://youtu.be/_FrzG5gzX7I (https://youtu.be/_FrzG5gzX7I)
Here's how a soft Dutchman works
https://youtu.be/tbN1sKN7IlI (https://youtu.be/tbN1sKN7IlI)
Quote from: so il logger on November 21, 2018, 01:11:59 AM
Same here
But honestly I hope you don't. Plenty of seasoned fallers out there that are capable of writing the book.
No offense
I hope i dont either because i know and always disclose that im simply an unqualified homesteader trying to help myself and others. So whenever you guys decide to actually write it, autograph it and send me a copy. Clearly there is a need in the world.
No offense.
This is an excellent thread!
Mike, IMHO, I think you should write THE BOOK. There are few if any who can put down in writing what is being done in the field--word-smithing a gift, you definitely have it, so go for it. I'd be happy to buy the first copy 8). Where do you want me to send the advance payment.....? All the best, Rob.
Happy thanksgiving fellers
I need to build a 1/4 mile road, put up a house and shop then go fetch 15 more loads of equipment from 990 miles away. Dont hold your breath on that felling techniques guide!
Happy thanksgiving gang, be safe.
You too, Mike; and to all- Happy Thanksgiving!