Hello,
For the past few months I've been searching around for a concept for a bandsaw mill, I finally settled on a design I liked and started to build it. I am almost finished building it now but I have a few issues and concerns that I thought I should ask,
The main issue I am having is setting up the idle side wheel system, for the wheel system I used 3" square tubing that slides into a 3.5" square tube that's part of the main frame, the 3" tubing doesn't fit very snug and there is a lot of play in it, probably a 1/4", I am having a very hard time getting everything leveled out.
The other issue I am having is trying to setup a way to tension the band, I want to go with something simple but effective, I was leaning towards a bolt and spring tensioner but I don't know if it will work, or how to build it.
I'm hoping someone with more experience could help me, thanks.
Here are a few pictures of the sawmill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/IMG_4181.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/IMG_4179.JPG)
You might weld some thin stock to 2 sides of the small square tube; this would reduce the gap.
The best tensioner on a home-built mill was thunk up by arnold113. Pump and ram off a cheap hydraulic floor jack. Drill and tap a hole in the base and screw a 0-3000 psi pressure gauge in.
I did this to both sides. You can also see a slack adjusting screw or tracking bolt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Tracking_bolt_3~0.JPG)
Drill some holes for bolts in the bigger tubing. Weld a nut over the hole to fit the bolt. Put the bolt through the nut until it just touches the smaller tube when it's in the bigger tube. Put another nut on the bolt first so you can double nut it to lock it in position. Do this for one side and the top. This will push the inner tube over to one side and keep it down at the same time. You should be able to get all the slack out with a little tinkering. Cheap, easy, effective!
The other ideas are good ones too and will also work. I'm just trying to give another option is all. :)
I will yield to the sawmill builders but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, matt_K98. Adding your location to your profile will help with answering questions.
Thanks everyone for the help, I think I will try to weld some thin steel onto the tube to remove the slack. I will update after I get a chance to try.
Looking good!
One other option is to take some UHMW or Teflon sheet and stick some thin pieces in between the tubes. It will take up some slack and also provide some slick-ness for ease of adjusting. UHMW is what the plastic cutting boards are sometimes made from. You don't need to have it perfect. Once you tension up your band, it will cock in the outer tube and be snug - no wobble.
For tension, stay away from a standard screw/bolt. You will wear them out and they also have a lot of friction. Use a ACME thread - get one from a scissor jack along with the ACME nut. Buy an old jack at the thrift store. Find a VERY stiff compression spring (like a valve spring) and put it in the appropriate place on the screw. However, I did not add a spring. I figure the spring in the tire is enough.
As MM said, you need to be able to adjust the toe-in / -out on each tire to get it to track well. You need it to track where you want BEFORE you put your blade guides in place. The blade guides are ONLY for preventing the blade from going back as you are cutting (and providing about ¼"-½" of down pressure). Even then, the blade should not be pressing much on the backstop. The washer you have on there looks like a normal zinc washer. It will wear out pretty fast. Speaking from stubborn experience, get some Cook's guides and save yourself a lot of headache!
ljohnsaw, I believe that some of your reply was directed toward "Picky2016" and his build. ;)
Quote from: Magicman on May 08, 2016, 09:00:42 PM
ljohnsaw, I believe that some of your reply was directed toward "Picky2016" and his build. ;)
Oops, reading faster than my fingers can type, or is it my fingers are typing faster then my brain can think.. :-\
Thanks for the tips @ljohnsaw, are ACME nuts common?, I know where I can find the ACME rods but I have never seen the nuts for the ACME rods.
I believe that bronze Acme nuts would be best. Just do a Google Search (http://www.bing.com/search?q=bronze+acme+nut&form=UWDFDF&pc=UWDF).
I used a combo of two of the reply's. I used 4 pieces of UHMW inserted into the larger square tube and then drilled 4 holes on 2 sides of the larger tube, welded nuts over each of the holes and screwed in 1/2" bolts with a second nut on each. With the 8 bolts you can take up all the slack between the inner and outer tubes and have a slick surface for movement. You will have to take up all slack between the 2 tubes, to the extent of it being hard to move the outer tube by hand, or you will have all kinds of problems with your toe in/out adjustments. Don't ask me how I know this. The hyd jack ram with a pressure gauge will give you a easy way to tension your blade to the same point every time without guessing.
Lots of luck with your build and welcome to the FF.
If you go back up and look at my picture you can see that i used the
slack to my advantage. The slack is what i use for my tracking.
The red arrow is pointing to the adjusting bolt. Works great.
I'm not a fan of a hydraulic tensioner at all, no give plus loses tension fast if the blade heat up . I'd go with acme thread and a heavy spring, a valve spring is not near heavy enough. Should be able to find a heavy one a at a machine bone yard or maybe online. Steve
Use the air pressure in your tires for the tensioning. I used 2 1/2 inch heavy tube inside of 3" tube for my mill. I put a 3/4 inch tensioning bolt that could move the 2 1/2 inch tube outward. I got it to where it needed to be and tightened and aligned. To remove blade, deflate tires. Install blade and re-inflate to 65 PSI.
A big rubber donut and two big washers would make a good spring.
Something like a truck body donut off the frame should work.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 08, 2016, 09:23:16 PM
Thanks for the tips @ljohnsaw, are ACME nuts common?, I know where I can find the ACME rods but I have never seen the nuts for the ACME rods.
There will be one ACME nut in the jack.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_Tension_Adjustment.jpg)
In the foreground is the nut in its original bracket from the jack welded to the movable idle wheel mount. Further back is another part of the jack with the slip part of the jack that takes the pressure as you tighten it. It is welded to the frame of the head. The big silver handle is a locking bolt to tighten on to the shaft of the screw to keep it from loosening once set. Behind that is a large washer with a large nut welded to the end of the jack screw. I use a socket wrench to tighten. I suppose I could use a torque wrench to set it to a specific value. I "lubed" the ACME thread with anti-seize compound as it is out in the weather. Figured it would be better than grease as it doesn't attract sawdust as much.
That there tensioner is a thing of beauty. I love repurposed things.
Quote from: Ox on May 08, 2016, 07:05:33 PM
Drill some holes for bolts in the bigger tubing. Weld a nut over the hole to fit the bolt. Put the bolt through the nut until it just touches the smaller tube when it's in the bigger tube. Put another nut on the bolt first so you can double nut it to lock it in position. Do this for one side and the top. This will push the inner tube over to one side and keep it down at the same time. You should be able to get all the slack out with a little tinkering. Cheap, easy, effective!
The other ideas are good ones too and will also work. I'm just trying to give another option is all. :)
This is what I did on mine. It it also allows for adjustment for wear.
To each his own, but once you run a mill with a hydraulic tensioner, you'll never go back to springs and screws.. The pressure gauge lets you see what the tension actually is, otherwise you're just guessing... ::)
I'd never go to a hydraulic tensioner which has no give, soon as the blade heats up a little you lose tension. Or if I set up a hydraulic tensioner it would be pushing against a spring to take up the shock load. A spring has give and will keep the tension way better. My TK came with a pressure gauge on the spring setup. Steve
A hydraulic/spring setup sounds just about perfect, doesn't it? I have a hydraulic tensioner and monitor it closely. On a long, tough cut it'll sag a little. I just give it a small twist up then adjust accordingly afterwards. In normal milling it doesn't change much at all.
So a little update,
I welded a 1/8" thick steel plate onto the side of the tube and then a very thin piece of scrap steel plate I had lying around for the top. It's a lot better than what it use to be, and i'm sure if I squeeze another plate on the other side it would fit even better.
I found a small scissor jack in my garage so I used a grinder and cut out the ACME rod and nuts, I also found a used compression spring for $5 at a local tractor supply store that I think will work.
I Had to put a new spool of wire in my welder and the wire feed decided to stop working, so I never got a chance to work on the tensioning system. Waiting for my buddy to get off work so I can borrow his welder.
If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of my progress so far.
Everyone wants pictures....
If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of my progress so far.
Please post some pictures, thats what I live for. "I ain't got no mill!!!"
tnaz
Haha, alright. I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them.
Yep, pics please! Remember, others in the future will be reading this thread and learning, too.
If a blade heats up it is dull and needs replacing. :)
Here are a few pictures of what i have done,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1462991769)
You can see the two metal plates I welded onto the tube, this worked really well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1462991782)
You can see on this picture that the plate is now level.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1462992335)
Here is all the hardware that came out of the scissor jack, a 15" long 1/2" ACME rod, and one nut that fits the thread on the rod. The other nut doesn't have any threads, the rod just slides through it.
I bought a little piece of angle iron that I am going to weld onto the sawmills platform, and I will run the rod through.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~3.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1462992335)
So this is where I am at right now, I'm just trying to figure out how this will all work.
If anyone knows how I could set this up from the pictures above, please let me know. ???
Sorry, but I'd have to be there in person to see the stuff in real life. I'm not very good at seeing and imagining things in 3D. Someone smarter will be along soon!
Will that rod be pushing or pulling ?
My set up was pulling with the rod so it was easy to do. Yours looks like it will be pushing so here is one way to get 'er done:
You need to mount the threaded "nut" on to the LEFT side of the axle mounting plate in the picture. You just need to prevent it from spinning. A couple of small pieces of angle iron welded on each side of the hole will do it. The piece of angle iron that you drilled a nice hole in - weld a plate on the LEFT side of that so there is a pocket for the end of the rod to ride in. There will be considerable force on this plate so it should be thick and welded securely. If you wanted, you could weld the un-threaded "nut" to make the pocket deeper. Now the question is, with the ACME rod that will be sticking out quite a bit on the left side of your axle mounting plate be accessible to rotate and also not in the way of your wheel axle?
If it will interfere there, you could reverse the installation: Make a pocket by welding a plate on the RIGHT side of your axle mount plate and put the ACME nut against the RIGHT side of you angle iron bracket.
Its your choice as to how much of the ACME rod you want to use - you would just adjust where you put your angle iron bracket. The longer the rod (since it is in compression), the more apt to bow under the strain. Scissor jacks pull, not push.
Hope this makes sense.
I can make the rod push or pull, whichever is easier to do.
If you make it so the rod is pushing make it as short as possible the longer the piece is that has pressure on it the more likely it is to bend. If the rod is pulling it shouldn't matter since it will be trying to pull it straight.
I also don't know if that is a heavy duty enough threaded rod to stand up to the abuse it will receive.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 11, 2016, 09:09:28 PM
I can make the rod push or pull, whichever is easier to do.
With your setup there, I don't see how you could make it pull...
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 11, 2016, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 11, 2016, 09:09:28 PM
I can make the rod push or pull, whichever is easier to do.
With your setup there, I don't see how you could make it pull...
I'm sorry, I don't think I quite understand what your saying about the "pushing setup."
I never posted a picture but I was planning on using a compression spring over the ACME rod, I don't know if that will effect the way I set it up?
Really whatever way I can set it up I will do, I don't want to make this over complicated.
I'm making an assumption and you know what happens when you assume...
It looks like the plate must extent out to tighten you blade, correct? So there is no way you could "pull" with the threaded rod with what you show in the picture. To make it pull, you would have to jump through some hoops with some fancy brackets. Doable but try with what you have so far and see how it works.
Correct, the plate in the picture is shown pushed inwards so the blade can be installed, the plate extends a few inches out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~6.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463020298)
So here's a little diagram of what my intentions were.
I was going to weld the nut onto the left side of the mounting plate then move the piece of angle iron that I drilled a hole in, closer towards the mounting plate to support the rod, weld it down, then weld another piece of angle iron behind it so the rod pushes against it.
Then eventually weld a handle on the end of the rod.
That should work great. Two things, keep the rod as short as possible and brace the left angle iron really well. You don't really need to weld the nut to the plate, just capture it between two bars. That way if you change your mind, you don't have cut it off. Plus, if you weld it, there is the chance of destroying it. Don't ask me how I know about things like that... ::)
Just so you know what kind of pressure your working with...
This is my setup. I'm using 1/2" all threaded rod.
I had a chunk of 1/2" water pipe welded to the hidden end of
the rod. One of the long bolts that clamp the sliding part
had the chunk of pipe over it. When I first tried it out the
pipe snapped in too. I had to weld a 1/2" thick steel plate
with a hole drilled in it to keep it from snapping in too.
The all threaded rod is what pulls on the long bolts that
slides everything.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC02383.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1463023535)
I worked on the wheel tensioning a bit more this morning, I welded everything down and then I put a blade on the wheels and tested it. It works great, the only issue I am finding is that the ACME rod is wanting to bend since there is nothing supporting it, just like @Kbeitz said would happen. So I will weld a piece of steel with a hole drilled through it, onto the tube that's attached to the mounting plate.
The other issue I am having is with the blade tracking. Just to test the tracking I ran the wheels parallel with the frame, put a blade on then tightened it down. It did not track very well and wanted to roll off. I then started to mess around with the "toeing" of the wheels, it still did not want to track very well. So I will keep adjusting the wheel toeing until the blade wants to track. (If anyone has any tips to do this that would be great!)
Here are a few pictures of the bolt tensioner,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/thumbnail_IMG_4298.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463077560)
I took this picture before I welded a support onto the angle iron, I found that when the rod was putting pressure on the angle iron that it wanted to bend, so to fix that I got a 2"x2" 1/4" thick piece of steel and welded it onto the back of the angle iron. Eventually I will secure the nut and then weld a handle onto the end of the rod. I may order a 3/4" ACME rod just to be on the safe side. (As you can see, I'm not the best welder out there ;))
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/thumbnail_IMG_4300.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463077546)
Here is the wheel mounted and the blade under tension, this is when I had the wheels parallel to the frame.
Matt,
Not to throw the proverbial wrench in the works... With you blade on, I noticed something and you need to verify. The motor MUST pull the blade through the cut, not push it. The teeth on the blade on the bottom of the wheels should be pointing toward the powered wheel. Is your engine running the correct direction to do that or in the direction that the blade is currently shown.
The reason is that the blade needs to be under constant tension. If you are "pushing" the blade, the tension will wander up and down as the tires flex under the load (as you begin to cut) and will adversely affect the quality of your lumber. The shaft on the adjustable side looks long enough to mount the drive pulley there if you need to swap sides. However, the blade tension adjustment will also affect the drive belt tension unless you have other arrangements.
Also, I don't see it in the pictures - how are you adjusting the toe-in on the wheel? Shims? If so, you really need a bolt-like adjustment. You will find you need small changes and you need to be able to do it while it is running.
The way I mounted my motor, the shaft is facing behind the sawmill, my engines shaft runs counter clockwise, so the blade will be spinning to the left. (When you are standing behind the mill.)
I totally forgot to check if the teeth on the blade are facing the right direction, but If they are not, then I can always flip the blade inside out so the teeth are facing the right direction.
For the toeing adjustments, I am putting washers behind the pillow block bearings to angle the wheels outwards.
It seems to be working good, but maybe I do need a fine adjustment, I may have to tinker around and see what I can do.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 12, 2016, 04:29:16 PM
The way I mounted my motor, the shaft is facing behind the sawmill, my engines shaft runs counter clockwise, so the blade will be spinning to the left. (When you are standing behind the mill.)
I totally forgot to check if the teeth on the blade are facing the right direction, but If they are not, then I can always flip the blade inside out so the teeth are facing the right direction.
Perfect! I just didn't want you going down a bad path. Don't forget to flip the blade - they don't cut so well the wrong direction :D
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 12, 2016, 04:33:32 PM
For the toeing adjustments, I am putting washers behind the pillow block bearings to angle the wheels outwards.
It seems to be working good, but maybe I do need a fine adjustment, I may have to tinker around and see what I can do.
Here is a wild hare thought. Make another plate to mount the pillow blocks on and have a rod welded in the middle, vertically on the back side of it. If you use long enough bolts on the pillow blocks, they will extend through your original mounting plate (might have to elongate the hole a tad). With nuts on the back of your original plate, you can teeter-todder the secondary mounting plate. A nut on the opposite side would be snugged up when you have the correct toe-in.
That sounds like a good idea!
Now do you think it would make a difference if I mounted the rod in the center of the plate or near the front that way I can use a bolt on the back end to adjust the toeing.
Here is an example of what I mean,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/Untitled.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463087377)
That'll work! I think it's similar to Bill Rake's design.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 12, 2016, 05:06:50 PM
That sounds like a good idea!
Now do you think it would make a difference if I mounted the rod in the center of the plate or near the front that way I can use a bolt on the back end to adjust the toeing.
Here is an example of what I mean,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/Untitled.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463087377)
Sure would. I just figured you could use the same holes with longer bolts. If you wanted to get real clever, figure out some sort of cam system. You flip it "off" to change your blade and back "on" to go back to your preset toe setting and tension.
In regards to the tires I am using, what PSI would be ideal? I measured the PSI and they were both around 20-25 PSI, I decided to put 50 PSI in both tires and the blade seems to stay on the tires a bit better. The blade still wants to wander off the front but I have yet to fine tune the toeing so that may be the issue.
What kind of tires? What is the recommended tire pressure on the side wall? I'm running mini doughnut spares that are supposed to be at 60psi. If I don't run them at a high pressure, they don't track well.
I'm just using some small trailer tires, 4.80-8 I believe, with a max load rating of around 600lbs.
On the wall of the tire it's saying 60 PSI, I'm not sure if that's the recommended or max PSI though.
I will check the tire size to be sure. I have the intentions on eventually switching to cast or metal wheels. I was on a tight budget with everything else that I had to do so these tires were the only thing I could find in my price range.
Went outside and looked at the tires, they are actually 4.80-8
On trailer tires, the max psi IS the recommended psi. They need the pressure to maintain the rigid sidewall for trailering - can't have sidewall flex or they overheat and you have a blowout. So, I would recommend you run no lower than 50 or 55 psi and 60 if you can (the blade tracks ok). Then they will also have a good crown for the blade to rid on.
I messed around with the toeing a bit more and the blade seems to track near the center of the tire. Not perfect but looks "OK" for this moment.
I'm not sure if there is to much of a crown and the blade wants to just slide onto the ends?
Thought I would just share some pictures of the blade tracking on the tires.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463157691)
Here is the crown on the tire, the blade has a hard time running ontop of it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463157985)
Here is the blade on the drive wheel, the blade is running almost at full speed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~9.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463158174)
Here is the idle wheel, also running around full speed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~10.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463158364)
This is where the blade sits after I stop it.
I need to build some guards for the blade but just for now I will be extra careful.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 13, 2016, 12:55:49 PM
I need to build some guards for the blade but just for now I will be extra careful hope that I can outrun the blade if it jumps off and tries to cut my arms off.
There, fixed it for you.
All kidding aside, you should really get some guards made and in place before something bloody happens.
Be Careful!
Herb
Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on May 13, 2016, 01:20:36 PM
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 13, 2016, 12:55:49 PM
I need to build some guards for the blade but just for now I will be extra careful hope that I can outrun the blade if it jumps off and tries to cut my arms off.
There, fixed it for you.
All kidding aside, you should really get some guards made and in place before something bloody happens.
Be Careful!
Herb
Don't worry, he still has the blade on backwards so it won't cut him :D
As far as the tracking goes, looks pretty good. Would be interesting to see if putting the blade on in the correct direction would change anything.
The blade is turning the right direction for the engine rotation...it's just like my mill. :)
Looking at the PTO it turns counter clockwise.
If nobody is ever going to be around the mill, it's safe. But running a mill you have to be around it. No joking - blades can almost explode sometimes. For a test run I'd run without guards, but milling I'd want them. Just sayin'. :laugh:
Quote from: Ox on May 13, 2016, 08:48:20 PMNo joking - blades can almost explode sometimes.
Yup, nice description. I once had a blade to break into two different pieces. We found ~18" piece lying on the ground beyond the log loader. Depending upon where it breaks, it can do some awful stuff. Two weeks ago I had another end that came put of the sawdust chute. :o
Went to a local tractor supply store and priced out some steel for the blade guards, I will go back during the week to buy the steel I need, then I will start making the guards.
With the blade facing the right direction (I believe?) and tracking properly on the tires, I decided to start making the blade guides. I didn't have the money to spend on proper blade guides so for now I just used a good quality bearing with a bolt running through.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/thumbnail_IMG_4320.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1463239549)
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 13, 2016, 12:55:49 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~10.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463158364)
This is where the blade sits after I stop it.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 14, 2016, 11:27:58 AM
With the blade facing the right direction (I believe?) ...
Matt,
Just trying to help but I'm making some assumptions based on this picture. In the pictures with the blade running, I can not tell what direction things are going. So in the picture above, the idle wheel is on the right, the powered wheel is on the left. The blade teeth (in order to cut) need to move from right to left on the top side, left to right on the bottom side.
IF that is the direction you blade is going on your mill, then you are PUSHING the blade through the cut and you WILL have annoying little problems with cut quality because the blade tension will vary as you cut.
IF, however, the blade is running the opposite direction (i.e. backwards), then all you need to do is turn the blade inside out so the teeth can cut and all will be good. I have not needed to turn a blade inside out, but I'm guessing it might be a tad easier with an extra hand or two - they are pretty stiff. I think MM described how to do it once, IIRC.
I would recommend building your guards out of wood. You are going to make mistakes when sawing and your blade will come off. If you have metal guards your blade will at least need to be sharpened, If you have wood guards you can probably put it right back on and continue sawing.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 14, 2016, 12:45:44 PM
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 13, 2016, 12:55:49 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~10.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463158364)
This is where the blade sits after I stop it.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 14, 2016, 11:27:58 AM
With the blade facing the right direction (I believe?) ...
Matt,
Just trying to help but I'm making some assumptions based on this picture. In the pictures with the blade running, I can not tell what direction things are going. So in the picture above, the idle wheel is on the right, the powered wheel is on the left. The blade teeth (in order to cut) need to move from right to left on the top side, left to right on the bottom side.
IF that is the direction you blade is going on your mill, then you are PUSHING the blade through the cut and you WILL have annoying little problems with cut quality because the blade tension will vary as you cut.
IF, however, the blade is running the opposite direction (i.e. backwards), then all you need to do is turn the blade inside out so the teeth can cut and all will be good. I have not needed to turn a blade inside out, but I'm guessing it might be a tad easier with an extra hand or two - they are pretty stiff. I think MM described how to do it once, IIRC.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image-10.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463251145)
The blade is spinning to the left, so the teeth on the top are facing towards the powered wheel and the teeth on the bottom are facing towards the idle wheel.
If that makes any sense to you?
The way I have it now looks to be right, but you obviously are more knowledgeable about this, so if you think the blade is backwards then I will flip the blade inside out.
However it is, the teeth should be pointed toward the powered wheel and it should be pulling the blade through the log. The sawdust should be exiting the log/cant and passing the powered wheel.
The powered wheel can not push the blade through the log/cant.
Quote from: Magicman on May 14, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
However it is, the teeth should be pointed toward the powered wheel and it should be pulling the blade through the log. The sawdust should be exiting the log/cant and passing the powered wheel.
The powered wheel can not push the blade through the log/cant.
The way I have it the saw dust will exit the log from the idle wheel side. So if the blade can't push through the log then I would have to reverse the engine somehow.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 14, 2016, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: Magicman on May 14, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
However it is, the teeth should be pointed toward the powered wheel and it should be pulling the blade through the log. The sawdust should be exiting the log/cant and passing the powered wheel.
The powered wheel can not push the blade through the log/cant.
The way I have it the saw dust will exit the log from the idle wheel side. So if the blade can't push through the log then I would have to reverse the engine somehow.
Yes - if space permits, turn the engine 180° and mount the drive v-belt between your pillow blocks or right behind your drive wheel. If that doesn't work, then you will have to move the engine to the other side (idle wheel will become drive wheel) and you will have to re-work your belt tension setup so as not to compete with your drive belt tension setup. Better now than later!
I wish I knew this before I mounted the engine haha, However... I think I will be able to cut a slot for the pulley belt then I will remount the engine on the same side.
I believe someone stated above you can turn your blade inside out so to speak and put back on and that will fix your problem; I don't know??? Worth a try.
#64
IF, however, the blade is running the opposite direction (i.e. backwards), then all you need to do is turn the blade inside out so the teeth can cut and all will be good. I have not needed to turn a blade inside out, but I'm guessing it might be a tad easier with an extra hand or two - they are pretty stiff. I think MM described how to do it once, IIRC.
Turning a blade is no problem. Just wear leather gloves.
Flipping the blade inside out won't work for my issue unfortunately. I also went outside to have a look and there is no possible way I can turn the engine 180°, the way my platform is there is nowhere to mount the belt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~11.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463259240)
Engine on drive wheel side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~12.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463259317)
Engine on idle wheel side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~13.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463259377)
The only option I found was if I put the engine in the center and run the drive pulley right behind the wheel, I would have to move the wheels out more but I think it could work.
If you could put in a longer shaft then all you would need to do is to turn the engine around...
Or you could do like I did and run a jack shaft.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Engines_mounted_2~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1463261202)
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 14, 2016, 04:58:00 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~13.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463259377)
The only option I found was if I put the engine in the center and run the drive pulley right behind the wheel, I would have to move the wheels out more but I think it could work.
That looks very doable. Also, with the engine mounted in the middle, it will be a little more balanced with respect to your winch lifting the head.
The only downside I can find with doing that is the shaft won't be as supported as it should be. The pillow block bearing would be 4-6 inches away from the wheel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image-11.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1463262929)
True, but what is the diameter of your axle? Worst case you would have to use a higher strength steel or a larger diameter. Can you get away with just moving out an inch or so? It looked like you almost had enough room there. It looked like the plate the pillow blocks are mounted on would need to be trimmed just a little bit to expose the axle a little more and that would do it. If the post is in the way, move the pillow block further toward the front edge?
You could also just put a half twist in the belt. That would reverse the direction of the wheels. You will wear out your belts quicker and you may have issues with your clutch if you are using your belt as a clutch.
I would do like Kbeitz and run a jack shaft. Means 2 more bearings and another shaft but less headaches.
It worked out better than I thought it would. Just tapped the pulley off with a hammer then oiled it up and slid it down the shaft, a key way was already cut so I put a key in and taped it into place. I left about half an inch clearance between the pulley and the steel plate that the pillow block bearings are bolted onto. Measured the clearance and there's only around 3" of shaft sticking out. I am using 1 1/4" rod for the shaft so it should be fine.
I also Centered the engine and using a level I aligned the pulley with the clutch, instead of using a 50" belt I now have to use a 70" belt. Only thing left to do is to drill some holes into the frame to mount the engine.
Congrats! You are back in business! 8)
Gotta love it when a plan comes together! A belt and some holes to drill ain't bad for fixing up a bad thing.
Been really busy and haven't had much time to post an update on the mill. I have made a few major changes, the mill was a little front end heavy and would want to tip if it hit a bump, so I cut the legs off and just centered the tubing, this seemed to fix the issue and it is a lot more stable. To slide the engine up more I had to weld another 3.5" tube onto the front, I had to shim on top of the tube so the whole platform was level. I got a small piece of 3/16" steel sheet and welded it onto the tube to make it level, but the sheet was so thin and the heat was making it warp and it never worked out for me, so I decided to just cut the whole platform off and buy a 1/4" thick sheet and weld it back on.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/thumbnail_FullSizeRender.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1464282998)
Here is a picture of what I have done with the legs and platform.
I put the wheels on and alligned the pulley to the clutch on the engine then mounted the engine onto the platform.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/IMG_4412.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1464283179)
I was messing around with the winch lift and the way I had it setup was not ideal, the handle on the winch would hit the engine and I could only raise the platform about half way. So I started to think of a new way I could get the winch to work. I ended up mounting the winch on the top and run the cable through the steel tube, this fixed my issue with the handle hitting the engine but now I had a problem with the cable rubbing on the winch.
Here is a picture of the winch on the top.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/IMG_4415.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1464283651)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/IMG_4414.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1464283706)
You can see The hole I drilled for the cable to run through is big enough that the cable doesn't rub, but the cable is rubbing on the bolt that's on the winch, I believe this is because all the weight is pushing on the bolt and when the winch turns the cable digs into the bolt, so I was thinking of putting a pulley so the cable runs on the pulley instead of the bolt. I can't use a wall mount pulley since the cable is feeding through the tube, so I need to find a way to install a sheaved pulley.
If anyone has an idea that would work better, or any tips would be appreciated.
I would get one like this. The handle will then be in the front and you
wont need to worry about the handle flying around and removing skin.
When you let go of the handle it stays put. I also started out with one
like yours.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Worm_gear_winch~3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1464302720)
Quote from: Kbeitz on May 26, 2016, 06:46:35 PM
I would get one like this. The handle will then be in the front and you
wont need to worry about the handle flying around and removing skin.
When you let go of the handle it stays put. I also started out with one
like yours.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Worm_gear_winch~3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1464302720)
That winch looks like it would work a lot better than the one I have now but the only one I can find around my area is $90, I really don't want to spend that much, if I can make the winch I have now work then I would prefer to do that.
Got mine from E-bay....
You coulg hook on a large chunk of angle iron and mount your winch on sideways
with the handle sticking out front.
Maybe drill holes opposite each other just above the bolt you don't want the cable to be on, put a sacrificial bolt through the holes and have the cable chew up that bolt? You'd need to keep it oiled or greased to make it better on the cable. I know this may be crude, but my life has made me think this way first - simple and cheap.
I've been working a little more on the winch and I think I found a solution.
I ran into another issue today, the centrifugal clutch is grabbing the V-belt when the engine is idling. I'm not sure if there's a problem with the clutch, or the belt is to tight. The clutch is new and has never been used so I don't see why it would be the clutch, and the belt doesn't feel like it's too tight, so I'm lost to what is causing it to grab.
Perhaps your idle is too high causing the clutch to partially engage?
The clutch Engages at 1800 RPM, and my engine has a max of 3500 RPM, so at idle the engine should be around half of that, so the clutch should be borderline of engaging.
I find that when I loosen the drive belt the clutch won't spin, but if I tighten the belt the clutch engages.
Quote from: matt_K98 on May 27, 2016, 03:07:24 PM
The clutch Engages at 1800 RPM, and my engine has a max of 3500 RPM, so at idle the engine should be around half of that, so the clutch should be borderline of engaging.
I find that when I loosen the drive belt the clutch won't spin, but if I tighten the belt the clutch engages.
You should be able to get your idle down to 600 rpm. If the clutch is "almost" engaging at your idle, then you are going to wear it out too soon.
How do I lower the RPMs without the engine stalling ?
Is it already just above stalling? If so, the you can't do much more. I was just saying if you haven't already tried, back out the idle screw until it's just popping over. The other thing you might need to check - if the carb has a low idle jet, you might mess with that a little to smooth out the idle as you get it lowered.
The idle screw doesn't seem to be making much of a difference, I can take the whole screw out and it will still spin.
The clutch felt really hot, so I took off the cover. Does anyone notice anything wrong?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~14.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1464381721)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~15.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1464381784)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42996/image~16.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1464381848)
You can get heavier springs for that clutch that will allow the clutch to not engage until at a higher RPM. They're cheap.
When I have a clutch like that grab I just put a few drops of
Oil on it. Never had a problem doing that.
I removed the clutch completely off the shaft and cleaned everything. I wanted to make sure that the issue was with the clutch springs, like Ox said. So I put the clutch back on so I could see the springs when the clutch is engaged. Started the engine and the clutch engaged On idle, so that explains why My clutch isn't working properly.
I will have to purchase different clutch springs.
Kinda late seeing this, but just in case anyone else needs the info...
Surplus Center has ACME threaded rods and nuts (http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/ACME-Thread-Lead-Screw-Nuts/).
I wanted to see a centrifugal clutch work when I was a kid. Took the outer housing off and started her up. I had the throttle linkage hooked up temporary and forgot to take it off, causing the engine to speed right up when started. That clutch engaged, alright! The shoes and the big long spring in those days went flying all over the barn. Took me a while to find all the parts again. You guys are the first to hear this story, I think. I'd forgotten all about it until today.
Quote from: Ox on May 10, 2016, 08:55:47 PM
Yep, pics please! Remember, others in the future will be reading this thread and learning, too.
I went to see your mill pictures. You don't have any. I don't because I haven't built it yet.