I have been sawing Red and White oaks up to 24 inches the last couple weeks. I have been using WM 42 thousandths 10 degree blades. As that is what I have had on hand. Been QS as much as I could so some wide opening faces. Everything is with in spect's for adjustments, logs are pretty clean and I use the debarker. I still was getting dips and dives on the cants. I figured I was only getting 400-450 BFT to a blade.
Today I received my new blades a box of 5 of 45 thousandths 4 degrees and 10 42 thousandths 10 degrees. I was really impressed with the 4 degree blades was able to push saw harder and faster than I ever have before. The dips and dives were gone. Was able to do 450 bft in a hour and blade was still cutting clean and fast. I do like the flat box you get when you buy 15 blades. Today was the first time I have gotten coiled blades, not impresses with the packing. I can see having several blades with teeth out of set by the way they were packed. I will be keeping some 4 degree blades in stock from now on. Need to try the 7 degrees next.
I keep an assortment of 10, 7, 7 turbo and 4 I take to the job site and I keep finding myself going to the 4 as an all purpose blade. I'll try the others based on the profile of the wood but if I'm not satisfied I'll install a 4.
If I could only take one blade to a job site it would be the 4 degree.
I've been running 4° blades for over 10 years now, with a 4 I can push hard and cut straight, with a 10 I don't trust it to cut straight when pushing it when sawing tough wood. Steve
I have never used anything but a 7/39 turbo, .045". Wondering what I may be missing out on?
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I use wm's 13 degree blades almost for everything. They are similar to a turbo 7 but with a way more aggressive tooth angle. I've tried the 7 turbo and it cut great but much slower than the 13.
Quote from: Percy on June 04, 2016, 08:45:57 PM
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I use wm's 13 degree blades almost for everything. They are similar to a turbo 7 but with a way more aggressive tooth angle. I've tried the 7 turbo and it cut great but much slower than the 13.
Percy,
Are you cutting an assortment of woods or do you consistently cut the same kind of wood? What kind of mill are you using?
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on June 04, 2016, 10:24:37 PM
Quote from: Percy on June 04, 2016, 08:45:57 PM
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I use wm's 13 degree blades almost for everything. They are similar to a turbo 7 but wiytgth a way more aggressive tooth angle. I've tried the 7 turbo and it cut great but much slower than the 13.
Percy,
Are you cutting an assortment of woods or do you consistently cut the same kind of wood? What kind of mill are you using?
I cut mainly western red cedar and Sitka spruce but have done several truckloads of birch as well. Some cottonwood too. I have an early lt70 with a kubota 42.
I'm a newbie but I switched to 4 degree based on recommendations on this site, since I got them Ive been cutting red oak, ash and a lot of knotty pine and havent had any waving and I believe good life.
Percy are you the one with the lt70 or the 40? I always get you and Brucer confused..and maybe also Igneroid? or is that just a YT handle headscratch :D
So how did you like the 13's in birch?
Quote from: 4x4American on June 05, 2016, 10:23:25 PM
Percy are you the one with the lt70 or the 40? I always get you and Brucer confused..and maybe also Igneroid? or is that just a YT handle headscratch :D
So how did you like the 13's in birch?
Im the one with the LT70. Alias Igneroid. I join up here in 2003 when I didnt relize it wasnt prudent to use your real name on the internet.
The 13s are great in most anything but sharpening pretty much requires a CBN type rig as they are very unforgiving with burrs and poor sharpening. AND misaligned mills. Birch is a consistant density type wood compared to sitka spruce with the glass hard knots. The feed rates were incredible in the birch. I had to relearn spruce and cedar when I switched back. I run alot of set when cutting spruce and cedar but with the birch and cottonwood, it wasnt as necessary. The turbo 7 was nice but to get the same rate as the 13, you have to turn the feed knob way up higher. And on my mill, both will wiggle when you hit those glass hard knotts at maximum feed rates. Im actually surprised more folks dont use the 13s. My competition up the road from me uses them on an old lt40 that has had several different engines including a 28hp kohler. He likes them with any engine
I have tried the 13° blades before. They did fine in SYP but they didn't like hardwood at all. This is just my experience.
I would use 13s, but they only come in 1.5 inch widths. They cut pine much better than a Turbo.
It's been awhile but I think mine were 1¾". That might be the wrong direction that you were wanting to go. ;)
Quote from: customsawyer on June 06, 2016, 08:49:59 PM
It's been awhile but I think mine were 1¾". That might be the wrong direction that you were wanting to go. ;)
The ones(13 degree) I get from WM are 1.5s...
DESCRIPTION
(Thickness X Width) Hook Angle TOOTH SPACING
.035 x 1-1/4" 10° 7/8"
.042 x 1-1/4" 9°, 10° 7/8"
.045 x 1-1/4" 4°,7°, T7°, 9°,10° 7/8"
.045 x 1-1/2" 4°,7°, T7°, 9°,10°, 13° 7/8"
.050 x 1-1/2" 10°, 13° 7/8"
.055 x 1-1/4" 4°,7°, T7°, 9°,10° 7/8"
.055 x 1-1/2" 4°,7°, T7°, 10°, 13° 7/8"
.055 x 1-1/2" 10° 1 1/8"
Interesting thread.
With my SMLT10 running a 10hp motor I only had a choice of 10° bands but with my new LT40HDG26 I have many choices.
So far I've run 10° Double Hards -- my standard that seems to work well as long as the drive belt is tight, 10° Bi-Metals which cut the same but last longer from what I can tell and a pair of 7° Turbo's which seemed to cut Fir and Pine smoothly but didn't last as long as the Bi-Metals and at the time I had a loose drive belt so they got hot and dulled faster than they should have.
Fighting the wavy cut seemed to be mostly eliminated if not totally by cranking up the drive belt to 15lbs (Figured 14 is recommended and I last checked it was 15 so I left it there -- figured tight was better than not).
My wonder is: why would 13° bands cut smoother or faster than 4° bands?
Quote from: OlJarhead on June 07, 2016, 12:53:36 PM
Interesting thread.
My wonder is: why would 13° bands cut smoother or faster than 4° bands?
I don't think they cut any smoother than the others. Most say they are mainly for softwood but I've had great results with some hardwoods I've cut. We don't have oak or hickory up here which I've heard can be miserable. I don't think it's do all blade like a 10 but when they are sharpened properly and your mill is in good condition alignment wise,they cut fast.
Jarhead- be careful not to overtension your drive belt. More than one WM owner has been rewarded with a busted crankshaft by overtensioning their drive belt. A pound over shouldn't hurt, but don't err on the side of tighter with you're drive belt.
Just tried my new WM 4 degree blades on the black locust 6x6 to finish my order this evening.
Started with a WM 10 degree today and the waves showed up quickly. The way the 4 degree slid through the massive 20" cant to create a bunch of posts was fantastic.
I have a few 9' blades also that I ordered but not sure I will need anything but 4' moving forward. Do you guys really switch up blades based on wood type or time of year (cold vs. hot)?
For your application I would say just stick with 4 degree blades it's all you'll ever need. Those 9 degree blades dont impress me much they are too old school for this new school buck
My go to blade is a 4°. They stay sharper longer and cut straighter in most applications. I have 7° bands on hand as well. When I am cutting poplar, clear pine, cedar or cypress, I will use a 7° band, simply because these species are easier to cut and more forgiving than knotty pine and more extreme hard woods. These "easy" species give me an outlet to use my 7° bands, plus I get a little faster feed rate. I have also run into situations in 36+ inch pine where a 7° worked better than the 4° bands. The 7's allowed me to achieve a faster feed rate and cleared the sawdust out of the cut better than the 4's.
I will even use 7° bands on hickory, when resawing cants. If I am breaking down hickory logs I go back to a 4°. It handles the wide cuts much better.
Hello,
Wow, it is amazing to see so many different hook angles, thickness, widths and the list goes on blades. Even Bi Metal on mills. We have LT10 with 10 hp and up to LT70 with 62hp running another hook angle. There are so many variables to this sawing business. You also talked about drive belt tension and can also effect how the blade cuts in the wood. We can also talk about width of cut and species of wood.
My point being if you feel you are missing something because it works better for another sawyer compare more than just what blade they are using.
Hope this helps.
Marty
Quote from: derhntr on June 03, 2016, 09:56:40 PM
Need to try the 7 degrees next.
I have the same mill you do. No need to try the 7°......skip them and go strictly 4°.
I've done been down the road you're going down now with blades.
4° is all I use.
Just bear in mind that PostonLT40 is sawing watermelons with those 4° blades, so...
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on August 31, 2017, 09:19:25 PM
Just bear in mind that PostonLT40 is sawing watermelons with those 4° blades, so...
He also saws flower pots (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,74356.0.html). Man ain't right.
:D :D :D Truer words were never spoken :D
I have been told by my woodmizer rep and friend that he will not sell me 4* or 7* untill I own a mill that has a minimum of 38HP. Says he knows of no other sawyer that runs the mill right at the point of ZERO torque rise available to the mill like I do.
The fact is that 4° cut straighter when pushing hard in tough wood than 10° blades do. . Steve
Dang, I have never tried 4's, my old Cats claw has been set for 6 degrees for years. After many grindings my 1 1/2" bands start to dive and dodge knots maybe a 4 degree would allow a couple more sharpening's. Anyone here had good luck with 0 degrees hook, that would pretty much act like a scraper. Really it takes an accurate tool to pick up a degree or two on a band. I use a LS Starett protractor head with a white paper background and leave a small gap between the tool and tooth. Frank C.
I would expect little to no cutting progress with 0*
What I have garnered from this thread is what most band manufactures have advocated.
In general softer woods cut better with more hook angle, harder saws better with less.
D
dgdrls,
Yes but the problem is those dang knots causing inconsistencies in the wood density making blades want to jump and ripple. I've said before if I could only take one blade to a job I'd take a 4 degree. I am slowly phasing out my 7 & 10 degree blades and will scrap my test turbo 7's. My problem is I will have to use up the others on my own stock because I don't want to mess up a customer's wood and use 4 degree blades almost exclusively there. I just got a new box of them delivered Tuesday.
I tried one of my -4°blades the other day with 5 people watching. They don't cut too well. Had blade on backwards :D
I love the smell of burning blades in the morning.
Tell those folks you like to back lap the teeth for a keener edge and a better overall sawing experience.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$%!*.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 01, 2017, 07:28:09 AM
Dang, I have never tried 4's, my old Cats claw has been set for 6 degrees for years. After many grindings my 1 1/2" bands start to dive and dodge knots maybe a 4 degree would allow a couple more sharpening's. Anyone here had good luck with 0 degrees hook, that would pretty much act like a scraper. Really it takes an accurate tool to pick up a degree or two on a band. I use a LS Starett protractor head with a white paper background and leave a small gap between the tool and tooth. Frank C.
Frank I tried 0° once, didn't cut good. I don't try and measure the hook on my blades just set the sharpener wheel at 4°. Steve
Thanks Steve, I have found that as the grinding wheels wear they tend to give less hook as they wear up the side of the wheel. When we dress the wheels mostly we just radius for the gullet. It would be wasteful to dress the wheel back enough to keep the side of the wheel perfectly straight. I think if most folks accurately checked the hook on the band it would be ball park but not right over home plate. But again if bands are cutting well why change things, most folks would do better with less hook anyways. Frank C.
The curve on the face of tooth from wear on the wheel is why its hard to measure with a protractor. I think the hook angle is still there right at the tip of the tooth as the wheel is wearing at the bottom also bringing the side of the wheel down with it. After sharpening hold the blade together in the middle with the teeth close to each other then you can see the hook is still there right on the tip of the tooth. Once in a while I take a little off the bottom of the wheel but not very often. . They cut as good or better than new . Steve
Speaking of 4 degree bands I had this experience: in wide cuts they cut flat vs. 10 degree bands 'crowning' in wide cuts.
I was 21" boards out of big doug firs for a customer and noticed the crown which I've seen on wide cuts before. Didn't seem to matter if I ran slower either. Then i switched to 4's and they were flat as could be! Loved seeing that.
I use 4's for big logs and hard woods and 10's for my backup band (since I have about 45 10's I kinda gotta use them up). I think the 10's are faster than the 4's but slower than the turbo 7's but they work fine for 8"-18" logs where CANT sizes are 12" or less typically. Push them up into the 20-24" CANTs and they don't last long and can crown.
I plan to reduce my 10 degree stock down to about 15 bands in the future and up my 4's by a LOT. I'll have some Turbo's on hand I think but am not sure how much I'll use yet without more testing.
one problem I have is too many choices! lol. I need more band boxes to keep them separate!
It's easy to get caught up into "chasing blades". On a regular basis, I try to limit my choice to two.
There are so many old wives tales and opinions about band mills its hard to separate the grain from the chaff. You really just have to try something on your own mill regardless of what is written. Small thin kerf band mills are a fairly new thing, most started out as manually pushed where hook angle makes feeding easier. Most folks are better off with less hook, at least try it. Frank C.
Like the Goat Man, I run 4° in all wood. They cut the SYP just fine.
This is why I take all of my blades to 4° when I sharpen them. I like the cutting speed you get from the profile of the deeper gullet in the 7/39 and the 7/40 but taking them to 4°minimizes your headaches.
Quote from: customsawyer on September 22, 2017, 06:41:33 AM
This is why I take all of my blades to 4° when I sharpen them. I like the cutting speed you get from the profile of the deeper gullet in the 7/39 and the 7/40 but taking them to 4°minimizes your headaches.
I don't see why no one makes a 4/40 or something and it's just the end-all of blades.
Quote from: 4x4American on September 22, 2017, 07:25:31 PM
I don't see why no one makes a 4/40 or something and it's just the end-all of blades.
There is not, as of yet, a production 4/40 blade. On a positive note, there is a CBN wheel available to re-profile the Kasco 7/40 profile to a 4/40 profile. It maintains the original gullet depth of 7/40 only changes the hook angle back to 4 deg. I use the re-profiled 4/40 in very tough to cut species, seasoned W.Oak or Hickory, with great results. It definitely out performs a WM 4/32 in these sawing conditions hands down.
One day I'll get a cbn sharpner...but until then I'm gonna keep using the kitty committee bandsaw blade tickler
;D ;D :D You crack me up, D-u-g :D