I havent started the mill yet and have a guy offering standing trees to me for free. These are 24 to 40" base diameter. How long can they lay near the ground before issues start to come up? If i elevate them up 2 feet does this delay or prevent issues? Im trying to decide if i should let the job go, im sure there will be more...
If off the ground, oak will last a good long time without significant degrade. The sapwood might get some stain or light spalting, but the heartwood will be fine. Not so with maple. It needs to be sawn quickly or it can (will) develop gray stain very quickly in the hot summer. In Georgia, gray stain is a major issue with maple. I have to saw the logs soon after felling and then run fans on the air drying stack 24/7 for a number of weeks to prevent gray stain and sticker stain. If you cut the maple, to be safe, saw them within a couple of weeks. Maybe it is not as sensitive to heat and humidity in Michigan as it is in Georgia, but be aware of the risk.
Unless the ends are sealed the longer they lay the more pronounced the end checks will be. I have cut them that have been on the ground for a year. Bark was slipping and end checks but the wood was good.
But having them off the ground will buy some time.
derhntr,
How has maple behaved? Does it gray stain fairly quickly in Michigan in the summer? Here is some maple that was sawn from logs that were piled and kept from the Spring to the Late Summer. Notice the amount of discoloration and stain. Notice the heavy amount of stain radiating down from the end of the board.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1434.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1466247936)
A year for maple seems like a long time around these parts, the next time I get a big one I will saw it up right away, mine went from good to bad very quick. Past the spalt stage really fast. I've found oak to hold for over a year with only sap wood degradation.
Dont know about Oak, but the few Maple I saw hit the ground and are boards within 2 days after end sealing with Anchorseal.
I only saw maple from my woods when I have a sick or recently dead tree.
I then stand the boards vertically inside my pole building for several days before stickering.
Using this method I dont get any gray stain or sticker stain.
Another method I have heard of to prevent sticker stain is to sticker then re stack after 3 or 4 days moving the stickers..
Maple will degrade quickly in Michigan as well. Generally if you see high grade maple at the mills this time of year, they will be under a sprinkling system and be sawn as soon as possible. Next best thing to being in a pond. Oak will keep through the summer well enough.
I cannot speak to those who are further south but here in SW Ontario I have never had any problem with trees (Sugar Maple, Cherry, ash, white pine) cut AFTER they have gone dormant for the winter (after mid October here) even if left sit over winter and sawn early spring. However on the one occasion I cut pine during the summer and milled within a month or so it was so heavily stained as to be unusable for all but 'hidden' work. I cannot say if this is true of hardwoods as I have never cut any when not dormant, but suspect if cut when the sap has risen the same would hold true.
Good points, as the season the wood is cut is makes a marked difference.
Last I heard most commercial sawmills, in this area, do not purchase maple between April 15th and October 15th.
Gerald
Is the staining from souring of the surgars in the tree?
Quote from: Lakehouse2012 on June 18, 2016, 11:34:47 PM
Is the staining from souring of the surgars in the tree?
That's part of the issue.
But it's a combination of sugar, water and warmth. Combine all three and you get all sorts of fungus, bacteria and chemical mayhem going on.
So if you cut a tree in the late autumn, the heat isn't there. So the logs stay good though the winter, until things warm up. Likewise you can saw maple at any time, as long as you get it sawn and start the drying before things go south.
Other woods with less sugars (and more nasty chemicals) like Walnut and Cedar last a lot longer without staining.
The maple I sawed was red maple. They were felled in the fall, set off ground till customer contacted me the following fall. I was newer to milling then so did not even think of color degradation. The wood was sound and customer was happy.
Wood was used in a garage for glue up work bench and cabinets. The finished product looked really nice. The finished stuff is a light golden color much like Burch in color.
Quote from: petefrom bearswamp on June 18, 2016, 09:21:14 AM
I then stand the boards vertically inside my pole building for several days before stickering.
That is a great way to deal with the gray stain if you have the space to do it. Probably the best way that I have found, second would be immediate use of fans on the stickered stack. Stacking single boards vertically with fans would be the safest way of all.
I say the answer on how long to wait depends on what you want.
I have about half a dozen maple logs from 2 years ago that I'm letting set for a while longer. But I'm trying to get them spalted and wormy.
If you want clear, white maple then as soon as possible would the best bet. I try to get unusual wood from my logs since I can buy white maple from the Amish then dry it.
Oak can go years if it's up off the ground. I had some logs that were >3yrs old. Bark and sapwood was rotten or gone but the heartwood was perfectly fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36163/LloydMilling2-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1451435588)
Sorry so slow to respond, I've been out of town for work. Thanks Gentlemen for your feedback, sounds like the answer is clear, dont cut Maple unless ready to mill.
Thanks everyone for the information. Some questions:
- The replies here talk about the staining in sugar maple if it sits over a summer. Does that affect anything other than the appearance?
For example, if I were to clear a sugar maple grove over the summer on a spot we wanted to build on, and stripped the logs of their bark, stacked them resting on blocks off the ground, and covered them with tarps for the winter... would they be usable still? They're all between 10" and 24" in circumference. I want to use them (unhewn) as posts and beams in building our garage.
- Some mentioned treating the ends while they sit waiting for use. Do you still have to do that if you're covering them with a tarp?
- Also, any suggestions on how to figure out what kind of load they can take if we used them as beams or posts?
- What reasonably affordable equipment is best for pulling the stumps? (I don't want to grind them - rather, prefer to remove them as it's a building site.)
- The rest of the lot is filled with a rather dense population of sugar maples, mostly the same size. A few larger ones mixed in here and there. It hasn't been tended to, and we want it to be a healthy forest. Is there a certain density or distance between trees that should be maintained for optimum health? (This is up in the UP of Michigan)
- Part of the lot is, well, a swamp with quite a few trees bordering it. Will having wet feet harm those maples? If so, should we proactively remove them, or does it matter?
Thanks much!!
Welcome!
A lot of questions on different subjects. 1st update your profile so we know where your from.
D onot ever cover logs or lumber with a tarps, that will trap moisture and accelerate rotting. Air moving through your logs or lumber is your friend. A cover over the top to allow the water and snow to miss your logs/lumber is best, ussually some old steel roofing is best
Try to re ask your questions on different threads . There is always someone that has ideas related to what your asking.
The thread you responded to is 3 years old and related to swawing lumber from SM, all go answers
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0233.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041238)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0234.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041239)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0235.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041240)
I sawed some very nice 1X6's from this Red Oak log that had hidden in a briar patch. Hurricane Katrina knocked it down in August, 2005 and I sawed it in August, 2009. The heartwood was very solid and was used inside of the customer's new home build.
Quote from: Magicman on December 20, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
I sawed some very nice 1X6's from this Red Oak log that had hidden in a briar patch. Hurricane Katrina knocked it down in August, 2005 and I sawed it in August, 2009. The heartwood was very solid and was used inside of the customer's new home build.
And that log looks a whole lot prettier than the maple I just threw up on the mill, which was a storm blow down from more than 10 years ago.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF3399.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1576429770)
This thing is covered in a rotten layer. The choker dug into it a good inch and a half deep all around. I'll probably peel off a lot of that stuff with a shovel before I start milling it in the morning. I salvaged a lot of dead trees from the ground in the woods. The ash does tend to get pretty brittle though.
The ash will fool you into thinking it is good. On the oak you can tell by looking. I hate old logs but I cut them all the time. The hobby sawmill guy can cut what you want and tell everyone how great the lumber came out. Consider what can happen with old logs ; The shortest length I stock is 8'. The old log has cracks because it has tried to dry and when end trimmed it will be less than 8'. And then we have the oxidized stain going in on both ends but not in the center that stayed wet. This is real cute 2 years latter when you pull the pile down for a customer and he rejects it. Then you pile it back up and write stained on it and there it sits forever. Rotted [on the outside] logs make a big mess in the sawmill and you slab heavy and throw the slabs away, more work, less lumber. If you are light on power notice the big difference in sawing live verses dead logs. Even cedar will stain and try to sap rot if kept too long. Saw logs need to be sawed and stickered asap or kept wet or cold.
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 20, 2019, 01:32:00 PMSaw logs need to be sawed and stickered asap or kept wet or cold.
I totally agree. But I also know that rarely happens.:)
Hi Tracy, welcome to the forum. For structural use it is not a good idea to sit on them very long. Decay reduces strength considerably well before it can be visually detected. If in doubt use it for non structural stuff. There are post and beam calculators in the toolbox, bottom of the left column of the page.