Hello All,
I'm new here and have a few questions about my first timber sale. Please point me in the right direction if this was discussed in another post I have not seen, or chime in with your own "two cents". I'm sure people ask this question "is the fee worth it?". A logger made me an lump-sum offer and stated "getting a forester involved is unnecessary cost for you". I'm a hesitant person who keeps open ears for others' opinions. I've heard they may be able to get more $ per acre. Long story short is the consultation worth it or is the logger trying to get a good deal?
I agree to rules. Thanks
My 2 cents, get a good consulting forester. They will serve your best interest. I get offers all the time from loggers to buy my timber and from my experience, they have their interest in mind, ie make as much $ as possible. My interest is to meet my goals and objectives in my forest management plan and get a fair market value for my timber when a sale is warranted. That's just my experience.
I'd be pretty nervous about a lump sum deal. As sad as it is, there's crooked loggers out there who will offer you $x for your wood as a select cut, and then cut twice that and leave you hanging. We only do percentage on stumpage. It seems to work out best for everyone. You could also do a percentage sale and ask for trip tickets from the mill so you know you don't get screwed.
Thanks for your input JBlain. I'm sure my questions might seem "stupid" to some. What do you mean when you say "Good" forester?? How do I avoid a bad one? Is there a process of vetting a forester? Do I have hire outside my area to try ensure they aren't "working together"? Thanks
@wannaergo I understand mill receipts, but don't understand how I could feasibly count every truckload of product leaving my land? Correct me if I'm wrong, but what stops a logger from hauling to a different mill and I don't know about it? That's why my personal preference is lump-sum for all. Thanks
Find a reputable and honest logger to do the work and you won't have to worry about counting trucks or getting screwed on a lump sum sale. I would still ask for the mill slips so you know exactly what was harvested. I copy the mill tally slips and give them to the landowner at the end of a job with a summary of footage and species for there records. I also cut on percentage and beleive that to be fairer for both parties and I would reccomended you find a logger who does that.
If you a get a forester on the sale he will make sure the woods are cut how you want them to be and you get paid for what is cut thats one advantage. If your unsure what direction you want your woods to go after harvest then defintly get a consuting forester to walk the woods with you. If you know exactly what trees you want harvested and are just looking for someone to cut them it is an unnecessary expense imo. I'm not sure how they would get more money per acre except by marking more trees?
Look for a logger who will work with you, harvest only what you want and is fully transparent about footage moving out. Timber harvests are a big deal, the effects are permenant and they only happen a few times in a person's liftime. Don't rush into it and spend some time selecting your logger it will pay off in the end.
Get some help,if you don't know. Lump sum?? Can be done,but when he gets to the lump,he might just keep on cutting. :o
I have a good logger,I know the ones that are kinda on the bad side. And if they are not busy,why ain't they?? The logger that cuts for me,I have to wait about a year for him to get to me. If they are not busy,there is a reason why they are not.
Definitely hire a forester! There are many members here that are registered foresters, likely they will know a forester in your area. A forester can tally what you have to sell in the first place, mark and oversee the sale. Then they get a little cut.
Good forester or a logger that cuts on percentage with slips. Either route I would want to talk to other clients and see jobs to gain trust.
As others said, this is a big deal. If you don't have a plan for your forest and the harvest, try to educate yourself through Virginia extension or a forester or knowledgeable logger. You need to set your goals, understand what you currently have in terms of overstory, midstory, and forest floor and plan a harvest that manipulates light, tree density and species and ensures invasives and competing vegetation aren't issues.
I am a big fan of thinning on my hardwood stands to around 60-80 ft2 of basal area. I always cut the worst trees in the stands unless a tree species is undesirable or it is a pre salvage due to a pest or pathogen.
Good luck.
@plankton I want a clear-cut, so I can turn into agricultural land. Thank you for your opinion.
@thecfarm what do you mean when you say "when he gets to the lump sum he might just keep cutting"? Correct if I'm wrong, but he logger would have timber rights to all trees in said tract of land.
@phishfarmer what's a "little cut"? Lol some have told me they possibly want 7-15% of sale price. That seems high in my opinion ~over 10k to mark and accept seal bids?
I wish a forester would respond. Thanks to all for responses. This is something I definitely have to sit down and think about.
I may be opening a can of worms but bid it out to loggers the highest one pays or in conjuction the one that can get to it in your time frame. Its hard to get screwed when theres 500 trees and a logger can take what he wants leave what he doesnt. Your not selective cutting here. I do this alot , you just need to know that ur not calling 3 buddy loggers that work into conjuction with each other. Loggers talk look at the ff lol... ;D
Lots of good info already so I won't repeat some of it. I buy ALOT of wood in lump sum amounts. Have more work than I can handle and have a 99% happy landowner success rate. Problem is there are still alot of slimy loggers. As much as people don't want to admit it, alot of shady foresters out there too. Being a landowner it's good your asking for advice, I haven't seen a logger or forester steer someone wrong on here yet.
10% is the low end, I know 1 forester who just sold a big job and it was 15-16%. How many acres are you planning on clear cutting and what's the general wood quality ? I'm in NY so some rules are different, but check with someone who knows your laws and federal regulations about doing a clear cut. I almost want to say alot of the rules are now federal and the same. Basically if I disturb over 1 acre in NY I have to get a storm water erosion control permit. I go knock down 20acres of wood, stump it and turn it into pasture overnight chances are good myself and the landowner have a huge problem.
Good wood is paying marginal, everyone thinks a woodlot is an ATM and the logger can work for nothing. Again how many acres effects price, but if you can sell the wood and cover the stumping costs and rough grading your ahead of the game. I know of another company south of me who tried to work cheap and took some bad jobs, I think most of their stuff has been picked up by the finance company already. :D :D :D.
How big is this logger your talking too ??? Anyone who has survived the last 10yrs and has a decent looking operation and decent reputation will probably do what they say.
"Probably" your going to get more money with a forester. I had one guy on the fence a while ago and he talked to a good forester, the forester laughed at him and said there wasn't enough good wood for him to bother with and to just let me cut it. I've got another lot the guy spent good money for a harvest plan, of course the forester wants to rape it so he can collect as much as he can, landowner doesn't want that, I have the job without the forester and plan on doing a select cut of mostly junk hemlock and fw, work around the good stuff and go back in 10yrs. A forester is a double edge sword especially when doing a clear cut, yes he will hopefully have a well written contract and hold a bond, but as a logger if I'm paying good money for stumpage and figuring the sale price has been inflated 10%+ for him your going to get what's in the contract to the letter. Even a good contract doesn't stop me from coming in, cutting the best and pulling out in the middle of the night, especially if I'm paying on volume and not 100% upfront. You have alot to think about with this one.
Quote from: killamplanes on July 12, 2016, 10:54:48 PM
I may be opening a can of worms but bid it out to loggers the highest one pays or in conjuction the one that can get to it in your time frame. Its hard to get screwed when theres 500 trees and a logger can take what he wants leave what he doesnt. Your not selective cutting here. I do this alot , you just need to know that ur not calling 3 buddy loggers that work into conjuction with each other. Loggers talk look at the ff lol... ;D
:D :D :D
You made a great point and I tried to avoid saying that. If something doesn't feel right, or the forester and logger show up in the same truck and went to school together and are inlaws, you might want to think long and hard. If anyone thinks that guys don't work together your lying to yourself.
@bargemonkey Great Repsonse. You've highlighted some of the concerns I have ie. Night hauling, 10-15%, etc. it's a pine plantation ~40 acres never thinned. The logger who made offer is "big" 2 crews, 20 trucks, blah, blah, and blah. He has been around for awhile. The whole percentage/unit has weekly payments. I'm not a fan of that. He recommends lump sum to avoid having me try to count each load. He is willing to pay all upfront before a single tree is cut/check clears my account 😀. He "seemed" honest and told me he could probably get 3-3.5 truckloads an acre. I'm guess a 25ton trailer load in va? I'm sure you guys who do this for a living could tell me if that amount is possible? Do any foresters charge a flat fee?
@killamplanes you have a valid point loggers talk. He stated foresters put it up for bid and same loggers operating in area offer same price if not lower and landowner ends up with less...is his reasoning plausible?
Thanks for responses
Let me start off by saying I know very little about this, and I am sure it varies from region, but I do know the govt sales we have here, big or small is lump sum, period.
VA Department of Forestry (http://dof.virginia.gov/manage/harvest/timber-selling.htm)
There is a good place to start with your questions with a state forester. They give free advice to landowners and can point you in the direction of a good consulting forester if you need one.
Tonnage and softwood in volume is a language I don't speak. I cut some pulp but try and avoid it. Red pine and plantation wood is a tough nut to crack around here and there are a couple guys who do alot of it and they have the money behind them to buy huge volumes of wood ahead and sit on it. I dont. :D If this guy has quite a bit of equipment / 20 trucks and a large payroll he probably isn't a fool, he is making money but the profit margin on plantation wood isn't huge, at least up here. He probably moves a volume of wood and does a decent job, as long as you have some form of contract and understanding that the job isnt left a huge mess i doubt you get burned. If you where doing a select cut HW stand that's another ballgame and you've got to watch sales like that a little harder.
We sit down and go thru all the sales that show up from 10+ foresters in our area. Every region has a pretty standard price per mbdft on species, sometimes we walk them before putting a bid in, sometimes we just throw a # at the wall and hope it sticks. I've bought some cheap wood because the forester doesn't mark enough, or marks one species heavy and has alot of TSI / cull wood. Alot of these big guys don't want to be bothered because it's all about volume. Landowner eats the low bid and the forester still gets paid his cut. ;)
A forester is probably only going to work with you 1-2-3X ??? In your life - his career, he is going to see the same loggers alot more. I've heard of guys being short on volume on sales, usually there is a 10% + overrun in volume. A forester starts continually coming up short on sales the word gets around, no one bids on his wood or he starts getting really low bids because guys are figuring he is shy. In the end the landowner always loses. I actually like buying wood from the state, and plan on doing it more. Contracts are very well defined, volume is always over and because now my region won't mark a "small" woodlot your talking 200 + - acres minimum. Less and less loggers, more guys are going mechanical but it's pretty easy to figure who else your bidding against.
Not trying to write a book but there is alot more to it than just "cutting trees".
Plenty of good points here.
My 2 cents.
I always worked with both the landowners and Harvesters on any job i handled..
Make sure any forester understands what your goals are.
On a clear cut of which I did a few, residual stand is not a concern, only getting the best price.
I sold 99 percent on sealed bid lump sum and had high bid differentials of from seven dollars to over $50,000 with one tie bid. ( they flipped a coin)
Number of bids ranged from 1 on a very small sale to 15 or so on large sales of high quality sawtimber.
Of course I have been retired for almost 10 years now and dont have a feel for current prices, etc.
As far as volume estimates go, it doesnt matter if your sales come up short or over, you only have to be consistent.
The timber buyers here knew how my estimating ran and bid accordingly.
25 yrs and only 3 volume complaints from buyers.
Quote from: hinb58 on July 12, 2016, 10:16:09 PM
@thecfarm what do you mean when you say "when he gets to the lump sum he might just keep cutting"? Correct if I'm wrong, but he logger would have timber rights to all trees in said tract of land.
Lets say the logger gives you $10,000 for a lump sell. But there was really $15,000 worth of wood. Yes,he has the timber rights,but it is "right" for him to keep the $5000? I can understand how a lump sell works,but just don't really agree with it. IMO
imo a clear cut don't need a forester any way other than the county guy, he is non biased and gets paid by the state.
call loggers for estimates until your sure you must be hearing fair prices. not many loggers i know would even discus how much they put on a tract not alone work together to get it cheaper. competition keeps us honest.
i also don't like lump sum deals, but things are different all over. if your pine are small, say under 300bt average, don't look for big money. small pine has been down for a few years now and i don't see a reason for it to go up any time soon.
From a foresters standpoint. I bid timber sales, clear cut are a select cut. It is amazing when you see the bids from loggers are all over the board with values. I try selling to the mills, which is harder to do as they like the prices a logger pays, and it keeps them out of the contract. But, you need to know what you have to sell, and then take bids. Around here loggers usually bid 10% or so less than what they think is there to make sure they do not undercut. A simple cruise by a forester could/would make you money.
The state agency may be the best thing you do.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I would encourage you to take a look at least one step beyond harvesting. What are you goals, or what do you want to happen to the forest after you harvest. Are there things that are important to you, like enhancing wildlife habitat, esthetics, recreational concerns, wanting additional harvest in the future, what will the next generation of forest - after harvest look like do you even want trees back on the sight after harvest, is maximizing income important. All are worthy objectives, but a harvest will have a great impact on the future
Harvest is only one step in the life of a forest, but it can have a tremendous impact on the future. Unfortunately, as mortals, forest out live us, but we can set the direction for future forest and forest use by how we manage our forests today.
My experience is a good harvest starts with a good management plan that lays out what is important to you and what is important in the future, and a harvest and harvest plan is but one part of the management plan.
Having been on both sides of the fences as a logger and procurement forester, and as consultant and private lands assistance forester for the state, I would share what I believe is the best timber sale strategy for the LANDOWNER; particularly if you do not know or have not worked with a buyer or logger before.
Have a management plan and understand where harvest fits in that plan, Mark or identify the property boundaries, Mark the timber for sale,(you know what you are selling and the buyer know what he is buying), get completive bids on the sale, complete a timber sale contract with the buyer, get payment in full in before any cutting begins, and monitor the sale/harvest.
This works in the mid-west, don't know if it will work in Virginia. Not every sale in the mid-west works this way, but it takes a lot of the unknowns out for the landowner. At a bare minimum, know what you are selling, have a contract and get paid first, eliminates a lot of problems.
I am sure I have alienated some loggers/buyers out there, but from a landowner's perspective, most loggers/buyers I know are straight forward and honest and reputable, and you can't stay in business long unless you are, but for a landowner who sells timber once, maybe twice in a lifetime there are a lot of unknowns and pitfalls out there.
Consultant or not - My experience is a consultant generally pays for themselves and more.
I'm in your general area. About 8 years ago we sold 50+ acres of hardwood. We used a consulting forester, he cruised the tract, marked the boundrys, managed the sale, and monitored the harvest. I think he charged about 10%, but the high bid was twice the low bid. There were about 6 bids spread between high & low, and the difference between the two highest bids was more than he charged. So in my experience the forester was a worthwhile investment. Not that a logger is necessarily dishonest, he just might not have as good of a market as another logger/mill, and that can cost you.
boys he said he was gonna push this land off, so there will be no management.
Make no mistake about it, there is always a need by the landowner for management.
You need to clearly identify boundaries, identify hazards, be specific on what can be cut, what the condition of the tract will be when done, how the slash is to be left or removed, how you are going to be paid, etc. You also need to know if the offer is fair for all and that cannot be done from a computer.
You need a pro involved unless you have experience to cover the issues.
Clearcut for farmland is a different story, I think a forester is not as needed on that case. Excepting if you don't know a lot of loggers he would help you get more bids on the sale making sure you got the highest price.
With out supervision a good solid contract clearly describing what is to be done on your land (even if you are paid upfront) what recourse do you have if the logger decides to cut the cream and pull out leaving you with a mess that you will have to pay someone to cleanup?
Foresters are just as much of a crapshoot as loggers. Find a logger who has done work in the area and talk to the homeowner or land owner he did work for. I know of more than one forester who has talked big numbers with a landowner about their markets or volume and come in way under. Skip the middle man and do some homework with your logger. Also work on percentage. Everyone comes out even that way.
Quote from: quilbilly on July 14, 2016, 12:35:46 AM
Foresters are just as much of a crapshoot as loggers.
Neither loggers or foresters are or should be labeled as a "crapshoot." Both the landowner and loggers have responsibilities here and if the landowner is not willing or capable of fulfilling their duties, it is perfectly acceptable for them to hire a pro to perform the required duties. Trust me, things can go very badly for both the logger and landowner if both sides do not fulfill their duties. Things like defining boundaries, establishing trees to be cut and those to not be cut, the condition of the site when the job is done, and many more.
If the landowner expects me as a logger to do his planning and survey work, I am naturally going to take that into account when I decide what to pay. I know very well how hard of work this logging business is and will always look out for my best interest and profit. So I will naturally put me first plus to do this kind of work without a contract spelling out everything is just plain foolish for both parties. That is why a landowner needs someone to look out for his interests and put it in writing. Otherwise the landowner is letting a stranger take what they want and pay what they want whenever they want and to leave the property any way they like. That makes no sense to me. ::)
If a logger said to not use a forester I would know right off the bat thats someone I would not let cut my wood. This is more true for you since its your first sale.
Why? If it's a straightforward job a forester simply isn't needed. At $100 per hour or %10 why not save the money? Just go do some homework on the logger. Make sure he is an honest guy and you'll be alright
Maybe I should explain a little by what I meant when I said crapshoot. If you look at the whole context I am implying the numbers a forester or a logger may give you on the value and cost of extraction for the wood. I have logged jobs cruised by experienced foresters that have cut out %20 under the cruise and one where we doubled the cruise. I have looked at jobs where loggers have claimed 150-200 loads and there will be 30 loads less. Some where there are more. That's what I mean by crapshoot. If you know a forester or logger who can go in and cruise exactly correct and give you the exact number of days it will take to harvest the wood you know a lot smarter people than I do.
Over 40 years ago I had some land in NC. Wanted to clear cut everything. Had several loggers make an offer for the timber. Didn't like their offers. So had a forester handle the sale for me. The highest offer from the loggers was $8k. After it was put up for bid, received $25k after paying the commission. That was a no brainer.
well..........i guess there are 8!@#%^&* out there that give the rest of us a bad name. i have seen just as much bad from mills and contract foresters to though. i still think lots of offers is the way to go. don't hurt to speak with the county guy either no matter what you do. hes there to help you.
Would you sell your house to the first guy that came along and offered you 50K for it?? Or would you at least consult with a professional in the field to find what its actual value was before considering that offer?
Exactly what Chevy said. It is a business deal. You need to know what you are selling. How much is it worth? How are you going to find that out if you do not have an appraisal? Have the buyer tell you? That is not good business in a general sense, no matter what you are selling.
You can hire a forester to appraise the timber and you can pay for that service. If you want to handle the sale yourself and oversee the process, develop the contract, etc. then fine. Or, you can discuss this with the Forester. You can pay for the service that you need and that you are comfortable with. It is not an all or none proposition.
I know a consulting forester personally and we used him when we sold our timber. He gave us the percentage he wanted. He did ok but I think he had too many irons in the ovens.
They can be good but as always watch them...like you would with loggers.
Lot's of scumbag foresters and cutters around here, have stolen a lot of wood of really good people. I have a good friend who is reputable, he comes in and gives the land owner half of what he gets for every load which seems fair to me. I was going to use him but decided to buy a skidder and do it my self so i can manage my property myself. I might move on to other jobs when I'm done mine but time will tell....i do love cutting and skidding though.
As a small time landowner we often only sell timber once or twice in our lives so we need to rely on others experience. About 18 years ago when I sold timber I called 3 loggers and got a wide price range, a neighboring farmer recommended a forester and even after his 10 percent I got 25 percent higher than the highest logger bid. The logger/mill that bought it needed hardwood so they bid higher, the forester knows which loggers/mills like your sized/type lots and sends to them. Get a forester, but first ask neighboring land owners who they recommend.