After wanting one my whole life, I believe I am going to be pulling the trigger on buying an old Timberjack. Have 4 in mind that I am looking at. 2 are mid-60's 225's. Both seem to be in comparable shape. Another is an early 70's 230d (rockwell housings, eaton winch) and the last is an unknown year 208d.
I like the 225's the best, however one needs rear tires pretty badly. The 230 looks pretty rough, however except for a really worn out main tranny shift pattern and one leaky axle seal seems actually pretty good. I have only seen pics of the 225's, and can't go now as I am back at work on the ship for the next three weeks.
After logging with my tractor for years, I have decided that the skidder is worth it for me; plus I concede that it is safer with a skidder. I may not use it as much, but I hardly use the snowmobile that I spent alot of money on too.
Over all I like any Timberjack the best for a small skidder. Like I said in your other post, I would highly recommend a 240 over a smaller machine. I am a full time logger, so that may have something to do with my bias. However, a 240 has MUCH more power, and is also a ton more stable. I live in the mountains, so stability is key. I have done jobs with my 240 that others said was "not possible". The Eaton hubs and walking beams on a 240 are much more solid. And the Grearmatic winch is much more powerful then the ones on the smaller machines. The price for a 240 or smaller skidder are roughly the same, and operating cost is very similar. My 240 with the 4-53 only burns 5-8 gallons per day. And the 4-53 seems to start up better in the cold and run cooler in summer, compared to the 3-53. The 230, 225, and 208 have there place for sure. Nothing wrong with that size of machine... For what you are doing, a smaller machine would probably do just fine. But after running all of them, I would never go back to anything smaller then a 240. GOOD LUCK. And post some pictures of what you end up buying.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23363/jack.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1422533027)
This 225 Jack has done well and pulls about 4000 bd ft a week for last 10 years or so for me. Amazing machines on longevity and simplicity.
Agree a 4-53 would be nice. Just a bit more power/another gear going up hills would be nice. Pay no mind to the twigs its pulling here. It can do much better :D
Is your 225 new enough that is has eaton rearends? All three of the machines I am looking at have the rockwells which I guess are not as robust. Being that I am a light duty logger at best, they should be just fine. Many are still in service after 50 years or more, so I have to assume that they are still pretty darn tough.
One question though one of them looks slightly different. I will attempt to explain the difference but will likely not do well.
Both of the 225 appear to have the Rockwell PR75's (actually so does the 230D) They all have the same outer cover (so you cannot see the three pins) one of them however has a smooth outer housing, the other two have a ridged outer housing. Ridged meaning that you can "see" where the 12 outer bolts essentially travel through the hub. Maybe that makes no sense.
Like many things I am likely over thinking this. Any thoughts however?
I honestly cant say what I have. I dont become knowledgeable until i need to work on it and havent yet. I do know the winch is an eaton as I had it redone. All the tags on this thing are worn off. It does have TIMBERJACK stamped on the hubs. Its a go-getter. I have been through a few detroits. Once you know what your dealing with its a great motor. Never tore into the one in the jack in pushing 20k hrs
Seems to me that if it has Timberjack stamped into rearends, that they are Rockwell's. As best I can tell anyway.
I have to assume that, as I said before, lots of them are still in service, which leads me to believe that they are still pretty darn tough. Jeeze, all of the skidders I am looking at are around 50 years old. One of them is still used daily. If that's not a testament to a robust machine I can't imagine what is.
Quote from: Bert on July 14, 2016, 06:46:23 PM
I honestly cant say what I have. I dont become knowledgeable until i need to work on it and havent yet. I do know the winch is an eaton as I had it redone. All the tags on this thing are worn off. It does have TIMBERJACK stamped on the hubs. Its a go-getter. I have been through a few detroits. Once you know what your dealing with its a great motor. Never tore into the one in the jack in pushing 20k hrs
they look like pr75 Rockwell they are a good rear we have them in a case skidder and only put in planetarys in 25years never broke an axle not trying to be a wise guy but I know my case will pull more than a 225tj so you should have no trouble with the Rockwell rears and the 240 also had 353s in them
If the hub says Timberjack its the Rockwell. If it say Eaton, its Eaton.
All of the older 240s I see and have owed have the 4-53 motor. Any thing smaller has the 3-53.
Both are good motors. Make sure you are running straight 40 wt in summer and 30 wt in winter. These motors were first made in the 1930's. They did not have 15w40 back then. Multi weight oils are hard on a Detroit. I know a lot of guys run 15w40, but Detroit says never to do so. Also, these Detroits need lots of clean air. Make sure to keep you air filter clean or it will pull crap past the filter and dust the motor.
Good luck skidder shopping.
not shur of the year its in the 80s but it has a factory 353 turbo and nice and quiet 8) the 353 turbo has the same hp as the 453 non turbo we have been running 15/40 in our Detroits for years and never had any issues had a 318 for 12 years till the cab/frame rotted had a case Beloit with a 353 for 18 years had a pettibone 501 with a 353 for 10 years and sold it still going and have a 671 for the last 8 years running most every day we know what the book says :) a book also tells you when you buy a new truck not to tow with it for the first 500 miles do we listen not most of us :D :D :D ;D
Good luck on skidder shopping, Jacks are nice and easy to use. Detroits have proven themselves for years and are still out there making someone a paycheck every day. With a good muffler system thats not to restrictive you can quiet that non-turbo down a bit. Lots of great info from members on Jacks on this site.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29166/240_tank_shot_selden.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1454020869)
Im really excited to be honest. It's mostly a hobby for me, I do all the firewood for myself and my parents off of our 65 acres, plus cutting a few loads of logs every now and again. Over the last several years we have started cutting other neighbors wood to maintain views. Generally we get the logs to sell and they get the firewood.
Because of the fact that I don't really need a skidder, I have felt that I couldn't justify the cost. A few of my friends, which happen to be professional loggers, have been persuading me, their argument has been very much that: if it something I love pursue it, makes the job safer, and seems that as long as you keep up the maintenance and throw some paint on it, one can likely get their money back. The other big one is the money, I spent a lot of money on a snowmobile that best case I can only use a few months a year, with luck from mother nature. A skidder I could use year round, except mud season.
I would like to know a muffler that I could add to tone down that detroit. I love the sound, but holy smokes that 3-53 is so loud when in the cab!
A further question: I have looked at a 230D, paint looks rough as heck, not a ton of rust but a sloppy paint job converting it from orange to green. But actually the machine seems pretty good over all. One rear axle seal or inner planetary leaks, and the main transmission lever is super sloppy. Other than that, it seems okay. Can the transmission be okay, but just the shift forks worn out, or is it generally the whole tranny about to fail? This machine is fully chained up, pretty worn chains, but for my usage will last years. Forward of the front rear end there is no skid plate. The oil pan is pretty high up in there, but is their supposed to be a skid plate directly under the engine? I would have assumed so, but never actually climbed under one.
The 225's and 230's seem incredibly similar. Same rearends, same engine. 225's hercules winch, 230d eaton. The only difference I can really see is the 225's have a 4 speed tranny, the 230 4 speed with a high a low.
230D, asking 10500 unsure of it's real history, owner deceased, nephew is selling.
225, asking 12000 (one owner since the early 90's, on his farm not professional logger) front ring chains, tires 30%. Machine seems quite nice.
225, asking 10000 logging daily. Claims engine is fresh, center pins/bushings just done. Tires front and rear smoked. One set of worn chains.
I feel like the machine for 12 might be the best. A little more money, but the tires will likely last me many years, and being that it was owned by one farmer, I have to believe that it is not as worn out as the others. Maybe I am wrong. what do you guys think?
The 225 for 10k also seems reasonable if he has some backup for the motor work. You can also check with tire shops in your area for some used rubber. I ripped a sidewall in one of mine and wound up with a 75% Firestone Forestry Tire for $500 installed on my rim with a new tube. I'd be slightly concerned with relying on ring chains for traction if your logging your own property here and there. A decent set of tires makes a whole lot of traction and doesn't tear up near as bad. A few trips with rings and you plowed the ground.
Quote from: coxy on July 15, 2016, 06:01:50 AM
we have been running 15/40 in our Detroits for years and never had any issues
Oh, I know. Lots of guys do it. I just like the idea of running what Detroit recommends using. Also, my oil pressure it much better with straight grade oils. Detroit also claims to change the oil at 100 hours. Detroits are very hard on oil.
Quote from: danbuendgen on July 15, 2016, 03:12:36 PM
Quote from: coxy on July 15, 2016, 06:01:50 AM
we have been running 15/40 in our Detroits for years and never had any issues
Detroit also claims to change the oil at 100 hours. Detroits are very hard on oil.
umm :D twice a year for me spring and fall but I will put in 5 gal of diesel fuel and flush the old black oil out let it run for a vary short time and drain it my dad always did it with no trouble so I picked up the habit may not be the right thing to do but old habits are hard to brake :) only had one troit run away with is self :o :o not fun but they will scream for a little while :D
Quote from: mf40diesel on July 15, 2016, 11:11:57 AM
Im really excited to be honest. It's mostly a hobby for me, I do all the firewood for myself and my parents off of our 65 acres, plus cutting a few loads of logs every now and again. Over the last several years we have started cutting other neighbors wood to maintain views. Generally we get the logs to sell and they get the firewood.
Because of the fact that I don't really need a skidder, I have felt that I couldn't justify the cost. A few of my friends, which happen to be professional loggers, have been persuading me, their argument has been very much that: if it something I love pursue it, makes the job safer, and seems that as long as you keep up the maintenance and throw some paint on it, one can likely get their money back. The other big one is the money, I spent a lot of money on a snowmobile that best case I can only use a few months a year, with luck from mother nature. A skidder I could use year round, except mud season.
I would like to know a muffler that I could add to tone down that detroit. I love the sound, but holy smokes that 3-53 is so loud when in the cab!
Here is a good post from tantoy and it shows how to make a muffler for a detroit
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82185.0.html
The 225 should have high & low also. Hercules And eaton winch are the same
Look at the pictures in my gallery. I have some pictures of the muffler we put on my 240. I just put a second one on the roof (not in pictures), dew to lots of neighbors on my current job. Works good. Personally I like it LOUD. I like the chopper to hear where the skidder is at. Nothing worse then a skidder sneaking up on you when chopping!
I will have to check them out for sure. While I love the sound of the Detroit, I have never sat behind one for hours straight... after the 30 min I put on the 230D that I tried out, of course with no hearing protection, I was surprised just how loud it was. I will certainly look for some sort of muffler to add.
For that matter, not too many houses where I am in Western Maine, but whenever someone else is running one, a 353 can be heard throughout the whole valley.
its hard to steal trees with a Detroit :)
Quote from: danbuendgen on July 15, 2016, 03:12:36 PM
Quote from: coxy on July 15, 2016, 06:01:50 AM
we have been running 15/40 in our Detroits for years and never had any issues
Oh, I know. Lots of guys do it. I just like the idea of running what Detroit recommends using. Also, my oil pressure it much better with straight grade oils. Detroit also claims to change the oil at 100 hours. Detroits are very hard on oil.
A lot has changed in oil technology in the many decades since Detroit recommended single weight oils.
You said that the 225s are mid 60s. If you are right, the differences are more between models to the D series than 225 to 230.
The 225 up to E series has Rockwell's. The Eaton axles were only option on the late 225d.
The 225 actually have Rockwell pr76 in them. The 230 has pr75. That is difference between machines. Now the pr75 and pr76 have same centre and plantetaries, but different housing.
If a d series has winch with Eaton on it, they have changed cover or winch.
Neilo
Quote from: mf40diesel on July 16, 2016, 01:30:45 PM
While I love the sound of the Detroit, I have never sat behind one for hours straight... after the 30 min I put on the 230D that I tried out, of course with no hearing protection, I was surprised just how loud it was.
A Detroit is not too bad with ear plugs. But its loud for anyone with out them. My skidder can be heard for miles and miles.... Any close neighbors hate me. Especially when I work weekends.... The 2 mufflers tone it down a bit more then the stock "coffee can" muffler.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 16, 2016, 02:44:31 PM
Quote from: danbuendgen on July 15, 2016, 03:12:36 PM
Quote from: coxy on July 15, 2016, 06:01:50 AM
we have been running 15/40 in our Detroits for years and never had any issues
Oh, I know. Lots of guys do it. I just like the idea of running what Detroit recommends using. Also, my oil pressure it much better with straight grade oils. Detroit also claims to change the oil at 100 hours. Detroits are very hard on oil.
A lot has changed in oil technology in the many decades since Detroit recommended single weight oils.
Just to be clear:
Are you saying to go longer on oil changes? Dew to better oil quality?
Or that running 15w40 is just fine? Both?
I agree that oil quality has come a long way, at 100 hours in a DD, the oil is ok but dirty, the DD makes a lot of soot. Much more the a Cummins, John Deere ect.
I have sent out a few oil samples at 100 hours, and they all came back saying that the oil was getting dirty and I could have gone 10 or so more hours, but with a Detroit to keep doing oil changes around 100 hours. They tend to make the oil dirty faster then newer engine designs.
My Timberjack mechanic, swears by changing the oil in a DD at 100 hours. He only works on TJ's and he loves the DD motors. He says the guys that do frequent oil changes, get double the life out of the motor. And I feel like oil is cheaper then a rebuild. Just my .02
My 3-53 uses enough oil that only filter changes are required ;) :D ;D :)
Quote from: Corley5 on July 17, 2016, 07:58:38 AM
My 3-53 uses enough oil that only filter changes are required ;) :D ;D :)
that there is funny :D :D :D and true in most cases 8) 8) 8) 8)
Thanks for getting back to me. The 225 listed for 12.5, is a 1966... according to the owner. The other one I believe is a 1970. Now of course I will know nothing until I can go look at them, and hopefully they are both still around when I get home in a couple weeks. With all of that said, I tend to spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff when I am at work.
The guy with the 1970, has had it listed on craigslist, and Kijiji for quite sometime. Claims that a lot of things have been done, and has back up for the head rebuild.
He did the engine rebuild himself. Fair enough, I have rebuilt engines myself too, and clearly didn't have the same receipts to back up stuff. While he is probably on this site lurking, he seems a bit eager to sell and asked me last night to make an offer for when I get home (contingent on me seeing it) , but he was starting to consider parting it out. To me, if all of the things were done to it that he says, why would you even consider parting a machine out unless it were actually junk? Or was that just a strategy? If it could be had for $8000 that has be pretty darn good even if it does need a lot, no? (including tires)
Then again, the 225 for 12.5, has been stored in a barn when not in use for the last 23 years. And hasn't been used professionally in that entire time. Plus that one has tires that would be usable for many years for me. Seems like that could be the real diamond here. What do you guys think?
if he would part out a working machine, that would send up red flags for me. for what its worth, I paid 12K for mine.(pics in your other thread) I bought it from my neighbor across the road. has 4 matching firestones @ 80%, nearly new ice chains, reman 353 with less than 500 hrs. it had 3 leaking wheel seals when I bought it, I ended up doing all new brgs and seals. I have a few more seals that should be changed, but it's pretty dry for a 51 year old machine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11814/tj8.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1460140622)
My comment was regarding viscosity. I asked my oil distributor for single weight oils, and they said they didn't recommend them, and no longer carried them. This is kind of like a mix oil discussion.
As to oil change intervals, it could be argued the due to ulsd, and advanced additive packages in the oils that you could extend the hours between changes. I personally feel cheaping out on oil changes is not cost effective in the long term.
Someone once told me that if you were running a Detroit, to add oil hourly. If it wasn't running, I only had to add oil daily. :D
I love that line Dave... add oil hourly... daily if not running... haha.
road_monkey, I feel like I want the barn kept, 1966. The guy seems pretty cool, and if he is, than I think that is the machine to have. Now I really hope that it is still there when I get home from work. Still have a couple weeks to go. With all of that said, contingent on seeing it of course, I might through the guy with the 1970 225 a number. He claims that he is pulling 10 cord a day with it. Might have just mentioned the "parting it out," comment to me just to get me to jump. Then again, the machine might be completely wore out too. For sure it will need tires much sooner than the other.
Road_monkey... of course I could do a little searching to figure this out, but are you any relation to Barge_monkey? Also from upstate NY and into logging?
I think he could make a lot more parting it out. If he had the time. Lots of perfectly good skidders get parted out for more money then could be otherwise. A good used 3-53 could go for 4k-6k alone. Axles, transfer case, transmission, winch 1k-5k each depending on quality, wheels and tires 2k, cab 2k, ext. If he could part out everything, I bet he could get around 20k or more for it. My skidder mechanic does this kind of work when he is low on repair work. Pays him much more money to buy a cheap skidder that just needs some tlc and parts it out, rather the fixing them up and reselling. There is a huge market for used TJ parts in New England.
dadbuendgen.... I dont think I like your tone at all... lol. We'll see what happens. I am really hoping that the 66' is still around when I get home. Have always wanted a timberjack. Wish me a little luck.
I can understand that a seller will go for all he can get, but he also knows that the buyers for 50 year old iron are getting slimmer and slimmer. They also know if they can't sell it now, it will be worth less next year, especially in a depressed wood market.
A piece of iron who has made the owner several times the money what it originally was purchased for, is just not worth that kind of money to me.
You might be surprised when they accept 2/3.
The more money for the parting out thing only works when you get everything sold or/and not counting your time for tearing it apart. You may can sell a engine and some tires and a winch but be sitting on the rest for years. Just my 0.02
Good luck shopping mf40 A jack is meant to put wood on the landing a sled is just a toy ;D tool-toy tool-toy tool-toy :D
and happy B day dan
Quote from: mf40diesel on July 17, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
dadbuendgen.... I dont think I like your tone at all... lol. We'll see what happens. I am really hoping that the 66' is still around when I get home. Have always wanted a timberjack. Wish me a little luck.
Sorry if I sound depressing or whatever. I bet he will sell it to you. Parting out a machine costs a lot of time. And time is money! And like lopet just said, he may sell the main parts soon, and the rest may not sell for a long time...My skidder mechanic tears down skidder and sells the parts, but he is set up for it, and loggers in my area know they can get ANYTHING from him, so he has a market for everything. This guy selling parts off a 50 year old skidder doesn't. It could be a scare tactic. Keep after him and I bet you will end up with it.
GOOD LUCK!!!
Heres a 225D 1978 with Eaton hubs and axles. The covers were like this and it was a special order. I no longer own this machine. With 16.9x30 rubber this was a good set up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29166/jack_1_12_16.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1452649807)
Dan... I was only kidding with the not liking your tone... if my joking sarcasm wasn't clear.
Most of my friends at home are loggers, I go to sea for a living, log for fun. They there would be more coming up all the time. So if these sell, there will be others. Not like I need to go right to work. I have enough wood cut for next year.
That 225d with Eatons is the dream machine there. Again, not that I would ever wear them out hauling 25 hitches a day, but it seems that the Eatons are the rearends to have.
What I need is one that is perfect, just needs some paint... for 1/2 the price! haha
Might be a silly question... the 225 and 230's are almost identical in size, correct?
Quote from: mf40diesel on July 18, 2016, 06:12:05 PM
the 225 and 230's are almost identical in size, correct?
Yep. As far as I know the 225 has a smaller tire then a 230. Other then that, they should be the same machine....I think.
My 1978 225D was 7 1/2 feet wide with 16.9x30 rubber. Got around nice in tight spots but was a little tippy if you were on a corner with a hitch. Just had to be aware of that.
Quote from: David-L on July 18, 2016, 07:28:57 PM
My 1978 225D was 7 1/2 feet wide with 16.9x30 rubber. Got around nice in tight spots but was a little tippy if you were on a corner with a hitch. Just had to be aware of that.
This is one reason I like 240 with the 23.1-26. Very stable.
Keeping the blade low to the ground with a smaller skidder and skinny tires helps a lot, can even keep it from rolling over...
Quote from: danbuendgen on July 17, 2016, 01:50:33 PM
A good used 3-53 could go for 4k-6k alone.
how many you want for 1/2 that price :) :) where are you guys getting these motors sounds like your getting ripped off my buddy just got a rebuilt 353 for 4600
225 vs 230 of same age, different rockwell axle casings. 230d came standard with Eaton axles from late '76 when 225 only had option. Late 230d had powershift option.
Neilo
Quote from: coxy on July 18, 2016, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: danbuendgen on July 17, 2016, 01:50:33 PM
A good used 3-53 could go for 4k-6k alone.
how many you want for 1/2 that price :) :) where are you guys getting these motors sounds like your getting ripped off my buddy just got a rebuilt 353 for 4600
If I said a Detroit could sell for 4k-6k, and you say that's a rip off, wouldn't your buddy have been ripped off paying $4600? All I know is most full rebuilds on a 4-53 go for around 6k+/- for parts and labor. I'm sure a 3-53 would be a little less. Also, 6k is a full rebuild taking no short cuts. Seems fair to me considering a new 4bta Cummins is 10k!
My 4-53 with no short cuts (unless you include they didn't paint it) was right at $6500. But that was in 2010-11.
Ed, just curious, but where did you have it rebuilt? I know you are in Mass, not too too far from me.
At Raymonds Repair on rt 10 in Bernardston, Chris's father is an old time detroit mech.
Oh, ok. I was just wondering who you go too. A lot of guys down your way come up here to Francis Brown in Marlboro for TJ parts and service. He is a old time Detroit guy also and retired logger. Too bad, most of the good mechanics are getting old with few skilled youngsters to take there place. Lucky for us, Francis's grandson is going to take over when the time comes....
mf40 diesel, would you consider the Garrett I have listed?
While that Garrett seems to be in real good shape.. I read the whole posting you had about it. I have been a Timberjack guy forever... even though I have never owned one. I may be interested down the road a little bit, PM me if you get the chance.
Well, thought I might give everyone an update, I ended up pulling the trigger on the 66' 225. The guy who owned it was 83 years old and had it for 27 years. The first night I had it, was the first night it hadn't been undercover in 23 years! (It is now also under cover, by the time I get in unloaded it was dark and I needed to measure to make sure it fit)
Haven't been able to pull out a hitch yet as we left town for a week and now I am back to work again, so I still have to get out the pressure washer, and then check all fluids closely and grease everything good. Tires aren't quite as good as I thought, but the detroit fires instantly, and doesn't smoke at all. Only thing that I have identified is I believe I have to do the steering ram pins and bushes. Seems to be a little slop, and when going fore and aft you here a bit of a clunk which I don't believe is in the driveline, although it might be.
When I get the chance I will try to figure out how to load some pics. Totally excited to pull some wood, already have two small jobs over the winter in my off time!