My family and I have been trying to do daily production sawing for about 3 years now and it is hard to get this thing to even out sometimes. We are either spent up on buying logs or out of them. I have had times when I went to the woods and was the only one to bring logs in for over 2 weeks. Then at times I will have 5 tractor trailer loads sitting waiting(usually out in the hot dry summer sun) on us to get them sawed.
I do buy and log some tracts of timber or hire the logging done, but still it is a juggling act. I would be happy to get my logs from one logger if he could bring in 1 tractor trailer load a week. It seems like that is impossible. The weather and equipment breakdowns and available trucking seem to have them running in spurts where I may get 3 loads bought and delivered all at once and then nothing for 6 weeks.
I thought it was just my size operation and the guys that saw 25,000 bdft a week near me probably have it all ironed out but it seems that isn't the case. I am down to 2 days or less of logs on the lot right now(thats what brought this rant on) so I called 2 neighbor sawmills and neither if them have logs to spare at this time. The last time 1 of them called me when he had extra logs I had more than I could saw in 2 months.
I would like to get so that I could saw some on the older mill while my son Scott saws with the newer one but I cant seem to get enough logs piled up at the mill lately that I know he wouldn't run out. It is good to be all cleaned up sometimes but I hate to run out.
Bibbymans log lot management thread has been constant reading for me.
It is some kind of balancing act for me and I dont quite have it down yet. How about you?
I will be following this thread... I haven't gotten anything down pat yet, and it's been about the biggest challenge of my operation. There are a lot of guys logging around here, so just talking with different loggers and asking where their buddies are cutting and then getting their phone numbers and calling around has worked.
Quite often, I end up spending a day or two hauling logs to my mill. I can fit approx 1mbf of 8-10' logs on my gooseneck, and last week I had 2mbf of 14-16' pine on. But I hate doing it and it takes quite a few trips to get in what a truck and pup could bring in. But when you can't get a truckload and need logs, short of logging myself with my 2wd farm tractor on steep ground, I've found it easier and more productive to go buy logs with my gooseneck. There is a concentration yard 15 minutes south of me, and I've been getting alot of my tie/pallet grade from them. But they can't feed me enough logs, I wish they could send me a truck a week. There's another yard maybe 30 min away and he's just not got much going on, but every so often I'll get some from him.
I spoke with another sawmill's concentration yard last week, trying to buy tie logs, but they won't sell me them, as they need all they can get. They would sell me #1, 2, and 3 saw logs, but the prices are crazy. I don't think I'd be able to make money on them so I haven't tried, but they have a good reputation and I know that I would get what I wanted (besides tie logs). Plus, they have multitudes of trucks coming in per day to their yard. Many loggers in the area sell to them. In fact, it was a local FF member who sent me to them. I think that if I could get the numbers they gave me to work, it could be a good relationship because they wouldn't have any issues sending me a tt load/week, they have so many logs coming in and out of there, and they scale/grade every one and put a scan tag on the end of each one, so you know what you're getting, and if there's a problem, you can surely get it taken care of.
Now the big grade hardwood sawmill near me has started buying low grade hardwood logs for crane mats at 400/mbf so that's making getting lower grade logs even harder to attain. But they are buying them at 16', so that might help me out a little. I was thinking that if I paid the same for, say log grade hardwood 18' long, I could buck that into 2- 9' tie logs and gain a little on the footage due to taper.
I have been trying to get some wholesale pine markets going because it's easy enough to get and it's usually always a straight run price. I don't love sawing that sticky stuff, but it can be fun at times, just the speed at which you can saw, and there's usually not too much stress in our ewp, it's very forgiving to saw.
Paul, never did, the big mills snatched most of the good loggers, some of the rift brought some at times mostly junk,
I ended up almost strictly custom sawing till the back gave way, sure miss it now buddy,,you know that's a fact. Winter is getting ever so close now it could get spurty again a few times before next spring. Hang in!!!
I don't care how big you get, or how small you stay, log supply will always be a problem. I watch our local mills, even the Potlatch stud mill, struggle with supply constantly. Sometimes in the spring, they will run a few days, and then shut down until they get enough wood to fire up again for a few days. Other mills are similar. When we can move wood, the whole northern MN loggging force can too, so the mills get swamped. Then it gets wet, and the wood stops moving. Potlatch probably struggles the most because they don't want their softwood to blue stain, so they can only build up so much of an inventory when it's warm out.
Location Location Location .... I cant keep up with all the free logs that is given to me.
I got around 150 logs on the lot right now and I got to go pick up some free walnut tomorrow.
I have a friend that has 50 acres of hemlock that's free for me to cut. All big trees.
I should get a bigger faster mill but I don't think that what I want to be doing all the time.
I try and hold a months supply in the yard, and by Christmas try and have 3 months supply on hand because rain stops play for the wet season sometime around then.
The word is "try". In reality it's a feast or famine thing that gets further complicated by species. Sometimes we can have the yard full and still not have logs suitable for some orders by application.
The only things I know for sure are to always cut the worst logs first and hold the best for a reserve, and keep cash in reserve to buy more. Not every log can cut a 12x3 for instance, but it ain't hard to bang 4x2's out of trash. Real good logs that can make money always become available when I'm broke.
I also prefer tree length rather then CTL. It requires gear that can lift whole logs, but there's a lot of versatility in being able to walk out with a chainsaw and cut lengths to suit an order with the maximum chance of something useful left over. One of the great problems with timber- can't just weld it back together.
Lurker,
I guess I don't understand why you would cut the worst logs first?
I dont always try to do the same thing. Sometimes we cut a lot of low grade ahead of butt logs and sometimes we cut the butt logs and hi grade first. That depends on the weather and orders. If it is above 90 and i dont have room to store them inside then the better logs get cut first as they will sap stain and any place with the bark knocked off will dry out and crack real bad which causes them to loose value. Sometimes we cut a lot of low grade pallet logs first as we have a 3x4 market that runs in spurts. I also can only get so many pallet stringers cut and delivered in 1 week, or maybe a custom order for barn siding or rustic paneling.
Mostly what we do is ties which are 7x9-8'8'' and grade which is 1.25''xwide and pallet stringers which are 1.25''x3.5''-4'. The 3x4's we cut must be 10'4''. I get all my logs CTL as it takes extra time and equipment to handle tree length and has no extra advantage to me. We are all hardwood and white oak, red oak and post oak are all that I currently sell for grade lumber.
I have found it to be a serious time consumer to have to be trimming logs to length so we try to get them at the length we want to use them at.
4x4
I have sawn a lot of logs from other mills and my opinion of them is not too good. It got me through but it gets easy to see they will send you stuff they dont want to saw or that is not good enough to do for what i am sawing. I have cut a lot of loads of it. There is always a few they put in it that are pure junk. Should have been left in the woods. Makes no sense to me to pay to have it hauled. I hope you have better luck.
As you may have guessed I am about out of logs, but I got permission to log 80 acres with some pretty good red oak on it 1/4 mile from home. I have 2 tractor/gooseneck loggers that are starting on it first of the week so maybe it will loosen up a bit.
MORE LOGS PLEASE!.
PC
Paul its not just sawmilling where this problem exist. Seems like every business I have been in has bottle necks. I get something designed with off the shelf parts and start selling them and suddenly one component becomes obsolete and I have to shake the trees to find replacement parts. Maybe with the logs being only a 1/4 away this will help.
Jim
Different country, different market expectations I guess.
My bread and butter is hardwood framing. In this country that's sold in multiples of 300mm generally, 300 mm being the metric equivalent of a foot because yanno... We went to metric 50 years ago but that meant new tape measures, not new span tables for building standards. Also "normal" is lengths out to 6 m / 20': put posts on 10' centers and no builder here would ever order ten foot lengths, they'll want doubles for sure.
So for us, getting length is part of the issue we face. I struggle to find markets for framing lengths under 10', I meet buyer resistance if flooring packs don't average at least 15', and the idea of end matching shorts together won't fly. They want us to end match 20' flooring lengths so they can join off cuts together. Imported wood they'll take in 8' lengths, but not domestic.
It don't have to make sense, we just have to deal with it. This weeks framing book looks like 3x6 at 11, 12' and 21'. 2x6's at 14, 15 and 16, 2x8 at 18, plus a heap of 3x1½roof batten which will be random lengths in a 22' pack. Framing species get stored in the yard by application and length rather then species to a large degree... general framing is mixed species unless otherwise ordered, and we charge 5% premium for single colour eg mixed reds and 10% premium for a single species framing order. The most common colour is ACQ brown anyway.
So that's largely why I like tree length or 45', whichever is greater - better utilization. I can grab a log, cut 21' off him for the longest order, toss whatever's left in the right length pile, and somewhere down the road that might get cut again or be the right length for the next job. The object is to not end up with a length under 10' long on the log deck.
I rarely trim a log in the yard regardless or application. If I want 12' lengths and I got 14' logs I saw them at 14 and dock individual boards once sawn. Not every board from a log makes a given order, so why limit where it can go on the next job by shortening a log.
By always cut the worst log first I should have said always cut the smallest log first rather then the lowest grade: better to cut four small logs for an order rather then 1 good one because the good one invariably can have sawn something better. Again it's about utilization, putting the best logs into the highest value orders. It's surprising just how many small mills never quite figure that one out, they save time turning big logs to small boards but then get left with small logs and couldn't fill an order for larger cross sections if it comes in.
In all this I'm lucky. We don't have much sap stain issue in our hardwoods, though borers can give us a hiding at times but they only annoy the sapwood. We do spray the log piles with insecticide in a vain attempt to keep the population under control, but it rains a lot so it washes off a lot. Logs can lie down the back of the yard for years in some species and apart from degraded sapwood all they really do is get harder and acquire more spring. Not that I like doing that, it's bad practice and I'd rather saw them and store sawn timber. But for many of our species it is an option.
You got no idea of how envious I am of the idea of truckloads of 12' logs and builders who can join wood together...
longtime lurker - similar here in NZ
The hardwoods here in NZ are only used for flooring or some appearance type product in general.
So end matching for flooring is accepted.
There is always the sliding scale of price which will shift shorter material, gets the cheap buyers every time.
I try and really work with our log suppliers if we need something extra long or specific, and they are pretty good at supplying.
The main supplier in our area however will cut and stand of hardwood while they are cutting the pine beside it and suddenly give us a weeks warning - We have 300-400 tons of eucalypt here tell us what you want and whatever's left goes to firewood...
THAT gets hard on cashflow... especially when it could be 6 months before they do any more.
It really is that size thing, you either have to be big enough to play in that bigger game or stay out of it with your own timber sources in my view..
Cheers
Justin
Quote from: JustinW_NZ on October 09, 2016, 09:06:30 PM
longtime lurker - similar here in NZ
I try and really work with our log suppliers if we need something extra long or specific, and they are pretty good at supplying.
The main supplier in our area however will cut and stand of hardwood while they are cutting the pine beside it and suddenly give us a weeks warning - We have 300-400 tons of eucalypt here tell us what you want and whatever's left goes to firewood...
THAT gets hard on cashflow... especially when it could be 6 months before they do any more.
It really is that size thing, you either have to be big enough to play in that bigger game or stay out of it with your own timber sources in my view..
Cheers
Justin
Yeah mate, same same. We have a small crown allocation, not enough and too much sometimes by species mix - good appearance/ flooring timber but no Royal species in it which means I struggle for Class 1's for in ground use. Plenty ironbark on the back side of the range but a lot of pipe comes with it and freight kills them quick. I get a lot of variable grade euc logs: they'll cut appearance on the outside, structural in the middle, and dirt in the center... Or Mahogany that'll shift from tight vein to loose vein and throws them back out to structural halfway down a board.
Rainforest species for joinery etc is usually clean but is all privately sourced and its feast or famine, use it or loose it to someone else.
We're vertically integrated not because I want to run my own harvest, but because if I had to depend solely on someone else to put logs in the yard I'd be having to take that 400 tons at a time. Ok if they were consistently good I guess, but it never works that way does it? At least this way my issue is can't be everywhere at once rather then no logs to saw.
I haven't bought any logs from any other mills yet, but I can imagine...
Longtime Lurker,
It sounds like you are in a totally different planet( i was gona say country) than I am. Everything you do is just about backwards to our usual here. It must be that other side of the equator thing.
I would suspect that out average tree of any species here in the edge of the ozarks only has 3 ten foot logs in it. That wouldnt make sense to haul tree length anything unless you had a grinder or pulp wood market for us. Just about every logger I know of here still cuts them down with a chainsaw, skids them to a landing where they are to cut to the sawmills specs and loaded and hauled to the mill. I really dont care form the way that the guys that have an automated cutter here operate as they generally cut down to a 10'' stump and it almost ruins the regrowth possibilities. We try to leave the little stuff so maybe we (the next generation) can cut it again.
I dont know of anyone in our great nation(except for me) that still would build a house with hardwood. Practically the only thing you can get that has the approved grade stamp for structural is Spruce Pine and Fir (SPF for short) Hardwoods certainly work and do well but not many dare to use them for that as they are generally worth more in some sort of flooring or??
That is all beside the point. I am not running your way down. It is kinda neat to see the differences from place to place.
PC
Paul - its even worse here all the framing lumber is pine and treated pine at that - CCA treated to be even worse!
Hardwoods are not the norm and while people like them for flooring etc the foresters liked planting softwoods that grow quick (25 to 30years for a rotation of pine) and just over 30 years for doug fir which of course mills can take a lot of quickly and spit out a lot of product.
(local mill does 100cubic meters of sawn timber an hour (every hour)- not sure what that is in board feet but a lot!)
However these supermills can only handle the pine softwood.
We took on a business partner a couple of years ago and shifted from the very small portable miller for everyone to a portable or static miller with more of our own interests in it as well..
Our partner bought 1100heactares of forest land into the mix so over time we will never need march to others tunes (hopefully) but it does create other issues or different distractions in the same stroke!
I don't like the thought of being left 'hung out to dry' by the market or a grumpy log supplier so this was really part of our due diligence going forward...
I think the basic concept is the same from the beginning of the thread though.. feast or famine, and cashflow is often king...
Cheers
Justin
Like Justin says, NZ forestry is about 98% plantation softwood. ~90% Radiata pine, and ~8% Douglas Fir in the cooler areas.
The 2% is "everything else", and small scale stuff like the Eucalyptus, natives and a few other oddballs.
Quote from: Ianab on October 10, 2016, 04:33:00 AM
Like Justin says, NZ forestry is about 98% plantation softwood. ~90% Radiata pine, and ~8% Douglas Fir in the cooler areas.
The 2% is "everything else", and small scale stuff like the Eucalyptus, natives and a few other oddballs.
In nelson/tasman area as the doug fir comes out its not being replanted any more either.
bit short sighted!!
Cheers
Justin
We here in Australia have been blessed with some pretty good native timber species for structural applications. Incredibly strong, incredibly durable, often quite beautiful. Them's the pluses. On the minus side we get incredibly hard and incredibly heavy, which rules them out for a lot of applications. So we build houses out of them, or used to.
here as else where the mills like me face a lot of pressure from plantation pine. Pine is cheap. I can buy KD pine retail cheaper then I can produce green structural hardwood boards in my own mill. Its soft enough to make building economical and easy - no need to predrill holes. No need to pilot hole the predrill holes for bolts, and you dont need 120psi of pressure on a nail gun and a hammer to finish driving the nails home. Treated pine is durable enough to meet building codes. 40 years they reckon. Post the last big cyclone through here i inspected a lot of destroyed (untreated) hardwood houses... most of them around the 80-100 year old mark. The wood was fine, you could pull the nails and go again. It was the bolts and nails and fittings that had rusted off that caused them to fail.
Problem I face is that very much we have high demand for certain applications that use the best characteristics of these timbers . Long span beams and joists because of the strength. Exposed decking and external work that wont rot or decay. Hardwood floors you can jump on in high heels and not leave more then a scuff on the polish. Those kinda things.
But pine has eaten away at the demand for the other things because we all know that even with a good log the whole thing cant make wide/ big / long boards. The market for the smaller stuff like 3x2's for noggin, or downgrade like pallet timbers is now dominated by pine. I truely believe that -with the euc hardwoods - finding a market for shorts is the difference between a mill that survives and one that can't. And theres a double standard being applied. Fingerjointed pine fascia and barge boards are okay, but I cant shift fingerjointed hardwood for the same application, it has to be in 20' clear lengths.*eyeroll*
The real issue is builders who were spoilt by an exceptional resource for generations.
Anyway as a matter of interest (cause I'm way off topic here but who cares) I pulled some comparison numbers on a couple of species to see how they compared.
Species: American White Oak Flooded Gum Grey Ironbark
Density (lb/ cubic foot) 47 39 75
Modulus of Rupture (psi): 15229 17694 26251
Modulus of Elasticity(psi): 1740 2465 3480
Janka hardness (lbf) 1360 1125 3664
The white oak you need no introduction to. Flooded gum is a species I cut a lot of - similar properties to the ash type eucalypts that JustinW gets in NZ. Might run across it in the USA under the trade name red/rose grandis or brazilian eucalypt because they have large plantations of it there. Grey Ironbark is one of the super duper strong and heavy eucs we cut on occasion... lasts forever, cant bend it break it or drive nails in it and your house will stand for a couple hundred years barring acts of god. Those three little pigs shoulda got a better class of stick.
Back on topic I think Justin has the right of it. Ultimately the only way to guarantee supply is to own land or the timber rights too it. You can still use a logger but theres a lot of difference between paying someone to cut "your" logs for your mill and paying them to bring whatever they can get from whereever at whatever price they wish to charge. And its only a truck, a skidder and a saw from paying a contractor to being the contractor if it all goes sour.
Guess this is why there are very few small sawmill owners that are wealthy, from the mill anyways. Like Kbeitzy I have always had more logs than I could cut, free, and I'am still not rich. Frank C.
Paul. you will never have an optimal year with your log supply. I have been buying logs for over 30 years and came to realize that fact many years ago. Maintaining a healthy inventory is the best weapon you have. I am reminded of my Uncles that were farmers when I was a child. I would listen to their stories/complaints growing up and I 'd hear , "It's too wet", "it's too dry", "it's too hot", "it's too cold", "the markets bad, because good weather increased everyone crop".... I finally asked one Uncle, "was the ever a time when everything was perfect?. After a pause, He simply stated, " nope!", but he kept on farming! I guess he liked the challenge! ;D
It is a challenge alright!
I have 4 markets that can just about use all I can cut and they do me good at paying. Only one of them must grade it before they pay. It took me a few years to get here. I can do real well at sawing for these. It is actually better than custom sawing at $.35 bdft. The thing that keeps me wanting to do that rather than custom is the markets I sell to are generally quicker to pay and pick up( some I deliver) than most customers I have dealt with.
I already recieved enough logs to keep us running another day just this morning. Things are looking up!
PC
Ahhh. now another hitch in the plan.
I had 1 of the gooseneck loggers show up yesterday and get started on a new patch of timber just 1/4 mile from my mill. He brought in 2300 feet and only worked from 8 to 2 as he had to get his kids after school. Thats good. Enough logs here to keep us working for a couple days and I am not sure that we are working tomorrow at all as we are hauling our calves to market for Friday.
The hitch is we have gotten over an inch of rain since midnight and it is still coming down. No logging today.
I know that we could get quite a bit ahead in a week if I can get both GN loggers to working. Probably will work out so that we have all kinds of logs when it dries up a little. I hope.
PC
Quote from: Kbeitz on October 09, 2016, 03:18:17 PM
Location Location Location .... I cant keep up with all the free logs that is given to me.
I got around 150 logs on the lot right now and I got to go pick up some free walnut tomorrow.
I have a friend that has 50 acres of hemlock that's free for me to cut. All big trees.
I should get a bigger faster mill but I don't think that what I want to be doing all the time.
it all depends on how much you saw :) my timberking mill would be similar to pauls WM far as production and if i was down to 150 tie logs i would be worried thats only 3 days work but if that was 150 30"+ logs they could last 2-3 weeks so i would feel safe as long as they didnt stop bring logs
we are just starting to run the s&w mill and i know we dont have enough money to keep it in logs all time so we will saw all we can buy and try to work up to full production but it takes ALOT of money to just stay a week ahead if you have very much production :) i know one of the loggers that hauls to where i am sawing got a check for 48,000.00 1 week and he was logging for my boss on the 3rds :o :o but he moves alot of wood i dont know how many loads that week but he brought 13 tt loads 1 day :o :)
True sandsawmill14, A guy can have a lot of $$$$ in logs and lumber.
yep its you wonder why a guy with enough money to keep a big mill in logs would bother ??? why not just retire and go fishing :D :D :D
That's why I always say sawmilling is a disease.
I've got $15 k of logs on the ground, either in the yard or on the ramp waiting to come here.
I've got moren my mortgage in stock on hand tied up somewhere between the greenmill and the stuff that leaves this week most days of the year.
I've got enough cash on hand to run her for a month regardless of sales as a reserve.
I've got a pile of bills need paying, balanced against a pile of payments due in.
Other then that and the value of the gear, I've got about 10 cents and half a case of beer to my name.
And when Mary says "What's the solution?" I tell her "Get bigger".
It's a disease I tell ya!
thats how we got the 3rd mill :D :D :D ::)
It never ends! 8) 8)
When you get sawdust in your blood, you might not know it, but the terms are til death do us part.
:D
I know a guy who got out of the sawmill business alive. He said that he finally got paid up as for 6 weeks after he quit the checks stopped coming in the mail. He said he never made any money until he quit.
PC
Kinda like farming, the only guy who makes money is the one who sells the farm
The guys I know who made real money out of sawmilling all did it pretty much the same way - land.
Buy low value undeveloped timberland, pull the logs out, put the bulldozers in. Then sell and go again, or hold it while land values appreciate for 30 years.
Either that or buy timbered rangeland and run the mill in conjunction with a grazing enterprise.
Either way the mill was the cash flow/ cover the interest / subsidiary component of the income stream rather then the investment itself.
Don't think I know a single guy that got rich actually cutting logs and selling lumber.
Yes, the old sawmillers here made their money buying land and then cutting the timber and selling the land.
There ain't much land around here for sale that has nice timber on it anymore...
How do you compete with a mill like Potlatch . They use 700 to 900 cord per day of spruce ,red pine , balsam and Jack pine . They make 2X4 and 2X6 8 and 9 ft.
I don't know who that question was for?
I dont consider it competing with anyone on logs or getting my lumber sold. Sometimes I buy logs from neighbor sawmills and sometimes they have me saw for them. It is a good arrangement.
PC
Well,
In less than a month I am knee deep in logs of all kinds. I have been getting some good oak logs from the neighbors place. The 2 different guys I have logging it for me do a good job of getting what I need. ! uses a backhoe to load and the other a bobcat. Both haul in on gooseneck flatbeds.
Then a retired farmer tells me he has 120 some logs he wants me to bid on. Sycamore, hard maple, kentucky coffee, mulberry, 1 walnut and some white oak. I went over and scaled 15,000 ft of logs at his place and he took my offer. So now I have to get busy and haul them in. It is about 7 miles.
Things are looking up!
PC
smiley_thumbsup 8)
glad to hear its going good for you smiley_thumbsup 8) 8)
just keep an eye on the markets we got cut off today on ties (not the big mill i saw for but the buyer where we sell our ties cut on the other mill) and we called 3 other tie buyers and none would even come look said they aren't take any new suppliers :-\ but luckily we are only caught with one load and im sure i can move it before they damage but the worst thing was they didnt call so they were on the truck and boomed down when my partner called to tell them they were on the way and they told him to stop the truck they were full >:( they could have called >:( so im not to happy with stella jones right now >:(
the thing i hate the worst is i have to call a logger and hope he hasnt started cutting an 8 acre tract we agreed to buy and tell him we cant take the logs :( and worse than that the next track was 28 acres and i am afraid we might not get him back :( if he has started cutting i will try to buy everything on the ground but there is no way i can buy all 36 acres and us not able to saw it and sell the ties :( 36 acres is not a lot of timber to some guys but this was a big deal for us about 3/4 red oak and should have been a good job for a while if the timber was sound and im sure most of it is ::) but this is the 3rd time i've been through this cycle and we will be fine as long as they put the big mill on quota or something :)
Quote from: paul case on October 28, 2016, 11:19:11 PM
Well,
In less than a month I am knee deep in logs of all kinds. I have been getting some good oak logs from the neighbors place. The 2 different guys I have logging it for me do a good job of getting what I need. ! uses a backhoe to load and the other a bobcat. Both haul in on gooseneck flatbeds.
Then a retired farmer tells me he has 120 some logs he wants me to bid on. Sycamore, hard maple, kentucky coffee, mulberry, 1 walnut and some white oak. I went over and scaled 15,000 ft of logs at his place and he took my offer. So now I have to get busy and haul them in. It is about 7 miles.
Things are looking up!
PC
Hard Maple is a rare bird here. I don't know that I have seen one to be sure. May have to come and see a log so I can recognize it next time. Glad you got some logs.
I have only sawn hard maple 1 time that I know of. Best I can remember it lived up to it's name.
Bring your pickup and I will sell you 1 so you can say you sawd it.
PC
Quote from: paul case on October 29, 2016, 08:48:37 AM
I have only sawn hard maple 1 time that I know of. Best I can remember it lived up to it's name.
Bring your pickup and I will sell you 1 so you can say you sawd it.
PC
we sawed hard maple all last week and it is hard used 6-7 blades per day and didnt ever saw over 1500 bdft a day :o something else that has surprise me is how hard the ash logs i am sawing now are they have been down a while and are dry enough to start checking on the ends and are almost as bad as the hard maple was :o i had sawn alot of ash over the years and always thought it sawed easy enough but the logs were always fresh less than 2 weeks old :)
I have had times when I thought some wood was a lot harder to saw than I had remembered and each time it turned out that it was my band sharpener needed the stone dressed.
PC
WOW what a difference a few weeks makes.
I am swimming in logs. I bought some logs about 9 miles from home 3 weeks ago and got all them hauled home. Since then I have bought at my yard about 25k ft of logs in the last 2 weeks. I actually sold 3 semi loads of them to a friend who is out of logs or at least isnt getting enough to keep sawing 5 days a week. I must have 350 logs stacked up around the front of the mill building.
It makes me think that we are in for a bad weather stretch when no one can get logs out of the woods and I am gonna have plenty to keep sawing.
I have got so much wood piled up around here it is starting to look like a sawmill or something!!!!
PC
Keep on doing the sawmiller's juggle. 8)
Good for you, Sometimes it can be feast or famine.
I like to run down the log piles so I can cut the old ones all up. I don't have a lot of room here.
But trying to get the new ones in just when I'm out can be a challenge. :laugh:
Glad to hear it. I've got a straight truck of doug fir coming today from a forum member, supposed to have a few truckloads of pallet logs coming from the local pallet place soon, and I have a bunch of guys supposedly cutting me tie logs, they are hard to get around here. I've had 3 packs of ties dead stacked since august, can't get enough logs to get 8 packs to get em out of here, pain in the hind end!
Welp got the doug fir in, forum member millcreek40 brought it over. Pretty sloppy out with the other logs in that clay so had him drop em by the entrance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/IMG_6515.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1479438797)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/IMG_6517.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1479438835)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/IMG_6518.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1479438816)
There wasn't a whole lot, but pretty cool as we don't see it much out here. Someone must've planted it, he counted and said approx. 80 years ago. I didn't bother to count but it does have some tight growth rings. He's keeping the rest to build a cabin with. I have a buyer for around 1mbf of it, and the rest I will use for my cabin most likely. He said that it was white when he cut it and then you could watch it turn red. I'm looking forward to sawing it.
Quote from: paul case on November 16, 2016, 09:59:08 PM
WOW what a difference a few weeks makes.
I am swimming in logs. I bought some logs about 9 miles from home 3 weeks ago and got all them hauled home. Since then I have bought at my yard about 25k ft of logs in the last 2 weeks. I actually sold 3 semi loads of them to a friend who is out of logs or at least isnt getting enough to keep sawing 5 days a week. I must have 350 logs stacked up around the front of the mill building.
It makes me think that we are in for a bad weather stretch when no one can get logs out of the woods and I am gonna have plenty to keep sawing.
I have got so much wood piled up around here it is starting to look like a sawmill or something!!!!
PC
If you're like us then a yard full of logs means you're now broke, which means some
really good logs are about to become available somewhere :D :D :D
Thats the other partof the juggling act!
Quote from: longtime lurker on November 18, 2016, 12:26:37 AM
If you're like us then a yard full of logs means you're now broke, which means some really good logs are about to become available somewhere :D :D :D
Thats the other partof the juggling act!
Yup just about out of log buying money. Thats why I have been selling logs too. I commited to buy the logs from my cousins place so I am doing what I can to be good to my word. Every time they bring some they say'' there is a bunch more''.
PC
Same same here... between now and Christmas we intake a whole whack of logs to carry us through the wet season when we cant get much at all in, I try and have 4 mths supply either in the yard or on accessible hardstand elsewhere by the 20th December. After it starts to rain theres no logging for a few months.
Its always a gamble: wet might start in late November or mid February, might last for 3 months or 6, and while it doesnt mean supply becomes totally impossible the whole time it gets real difficult. Local supply is a fail for sure, we can sometimes sneak a few loads out the back side of the range but thats all dirt road country and good rain can mean gear gets bogged in for a week while it dries out and maybe it rains again in that week. Had a skidder and loader inaccessible for three months couple of years back... just left them parked out which didnt kill them but we schedule all our heavy maintenance work for the wet and later that year downtime for breakdowns near broke us.
So we choose between having too many logs or risk running out. And we gamble on it not starting early lest the log degrade bill get too high. And the one thing I can guarantee is that right about now... when I'm committed to buying logs from here, here and here, and the money is going to be real tight for a bit... thats when some farmer wanders in from out of left field with a patch of premium rainforest logs to harvest that are going to totally screw up my harvest schedule, and see me right to the back end of the overdraft along the way. Again. And my wife will be *pithed. Again. And I'll either run short and end up freighting logs for hundreds of miles or the sound of the borers gnawing away will keep me awake nights. Again.
You dont have to be mad to be a sawmiller right, but it sure does help. :D
I don't seem to have a shortage of logs in my area. But this is all new to me
and I really have no idea on the value of buying logs. So a new guy is asking.
Is this load of 6 logs ( largest is 15") worth $70.00 ? All 10 ft. long.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Seventy_dollar_load.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1479505269)
Kbeitz how many bdft there? Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft. Are they marketable logs? Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc. Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.
If they were hardwood logs like I buy and they averaged 12'' sed then the load would be 240 bdft and I pay $.35 for that size so they would be worth $84 to me at my mill. Pine ? I dunno.
PC
Quote from: 4x4American on November 18, 2016, 06:23:43 PM
Kbeitz how many bdft there? Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft. Are they marketable logs? Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc. Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.
This is the first load logs that I ever bought. I have been getting so many free logs.
I had no idea what to offer for the load. The seller said he would like $70.00 and
I wanted to be sure that he would keep me in mind when he got more for sell.
So I gave him what he was asking. All log is 10 feet long. I don't have a market
for them. All are white pine woods grown trees. Just getting my feet wet.
Gotta start somewhere. I think I got enough logs to keep me busy next summer.
I was offered a sixteen foot 33" butt SYP log today for free. Woods grown, just too large for the commercial sawmill so the logger left it. I hesitated and still do not know if I will go and saw it because I do not have a need for the lumber.
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 18, 2016, 06:35:45 PM
Quote from: 4x4American on November 18, 2016, 06:23:43 PM
Kbeitz how many bdft there? Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft. Are they marketable logs? Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc. Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.
This is the first load logs that I ever bought. I have been getting so many free logs.
I had no idea what to offer for the load. The seller said he would like $70.00 and
I wanted to be sure that he would keep me in mind when he got more for sell.
So I gave him what he was asking. All log is 10 feet long. I don't have a market
for them. All are white pine woods grown trees. Just getting my feet wet.
Gotta start somewhere. I think I got enough logs to keep me busy next summer.
I dont know If it is worth it unless you can saw and sell about 2x what you give for the logs.
We all have to start somewhere. Find out what scale local people to you use, buy one and play with it till you figure it out. In my case it is doyle. I had to find out that almost no one near me uses the scale stick by its instructions( from inside bark to inside bark), but rather they measure more than that on good logs and on crooked rough logs they go less.
It makes a big difference what you can saw out of them how valuable they may be to you. We have sawn a lot of less than an inch barn siding and sold it by the sqft and done real well. 4/4 grade lumber is a little bit tough to get as much overrun on the scale. It is all in what you can make of it. I think if you could make a 6x6 out of each of them and sell them for $30 each then your $70 is making you money? Good enough for me anyway.
PC
A little update here.
Since 10-9 when I started this thread(when I was out of logs), I have bought about 62000 feet of logs at my mill. I cant quite figure I would be able to saw all that before it gets to turning bad, I had to get a game plan. After weighing the options and figuring how to make the most money with them, here is what I have been doing.
I decided that I can saw out the ties and grade lumber or pallet stringers and make the most consistent money. The ties get picked up so that is a plus and the stringers we make are the same thickness as 4/4 lumber so we will pull the fas and 1 com to sell for grade and make stringers out of the lower grades.
The ''grade'' logs out of the stuff coming in costs the most money and it pays the most money to sell. I pay $.50 for grade logs 16'' and up. I have a friend in the business that pays a little more and he will pay grade on smaller than 16'' butt logs. So I have been sending him all my larger, grade and some smaller butt logs. This way we are not pushed to cut those grade logs before they start to stain or degrade. I have sent my friend about 34,000 ft of grade logs. Oh and he sends a picker truck to get them. A big +.
We may have more on hand than I think, but I have been sorting off the tie logs and there are about 250 tie logs on the lot and that will keep us busy for a while.
I am working on a better way to cut off pallet stringers that ill be way faster and not cost much. Also I have been looking at a portable circle saw. I think I may be able to buy it and use it some and sell it. I like doing that kind of stuff.
I certainly dont have to worry about having logs to saw til next year anyway!
PC
I've sawed about 10,000 bf of lumber, all of it custom sawing. I've never bought a log, but have cut a few of my own for my own use. So as you can see, I'm just getting started. There's a lot of good info on this thread. Reading this has me doubting that I want to join the juggling circus.
Paul Case, Do you make up a price sheet with the size and kind of logs your looking for.
Like Oak 8'6" with a 16" top 2 clear faces, .50 a BF, one CF .30 a BF
I'm looking into this to send out to some loggers I know , and concentration yards
set a price on what I want and what I will pay.
Peter,
I did that and handed them out to local loggers and concentration yards. I have different grades of sawlogs and specs for each grades. Most want me to match the local big sawmills prices to get their logs, so I have my price sheet similar to theirs so the loggers can compare.
For an example, a prime log is 16" 1 sm. defect 10' + or 15" 4cf 10'+
The other grades without spelling them out are:
Select
#1
#2
#3
Tie
Pallet
Cull
I have on it the min/max diameters I take, what lengths to cut, what scale I use, cull logs removed immediately or will be disposed of without recourse, hardware logs culled, straight through pricing available on certain species, spider heart, bark seam reduces grade, etc etc.
So the grades are written out and explained on one side, and then there is a chart and it has the grades on one axis, species on the other and prices where they meet. Then there's my address, phone number, hours, etc.
I refuse to make a price sheet.
Well I have one but it is so small it is more of a price note.
All hardwood logs cut 8'8'' or 10'6'' hard core no shake or rot or other defect 12'' and up $.35 bdft
RO and WO 16''+ 3 or more clear sides and no other defect $.50bdft.
I dont want to get trapped with a whole bunch of stuff I cant use so I dont buy logs under 10'' and under 8'8''. Crooked and other defects get scaled back a couple notches each.
KISS method.
PC
Thanks for the info guys.
Well I am back at it.
Juggling like a clown.
We were a few gn loads of logs from sawing out with no orders and resawing some cants into stringers Wednesday when I got this tx....
It is happening again. We need to make 100 pallets for next week! I need 360 more cants from you by Monday.
That is a little unusual to hear but not out of the question, so we got started sawing and by the end of the day Thursday we had 180 (3x4-10') cants ready to go. Today we got started and made 110 before lunch then I had to go deliver the first load right after lunch. When I got back Scott lacks 27 cants to be finished and had 7 smallish logs to go. I said if you get them cut before quitting time, pack it up and go home. I think he will have a couple logs left.
We only have 5 other logs on the yard at all. However I got to cruise some timber yesterday and have a man to start logging it for me on Monday and I am supposed to have a gn load of logs coming Monday that I wasn't expecting.
I wish I could tell you all how to work this out, and I would , if I only knew.
PC
Robbing Peter to pay Paul , just like everyone.
I try to help all my customers where I can. For me when I get a call and they tell me when to have some lumber cut and ready to go. I tell them your emergency is not mine. And I tell them when I can have the lumber ready for them. If [My] time frame works, then good, if not, well then good luck and have a nice day.
Why doesn't the pallet guy get ahead on cants?
Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 23, 2017, 06:04:38 AM
Why doesn't the pallet guy get ahead on cants?
Possibly because of stain/mold. If they sit around dead stacked too long they glue themselves together and then when you finally get them broke apart theyre slippery lol. Or it could be like my pallet guy where he takes in 1-2 TT loads of cants per week and just blows through them.
Paul how come he don't want cutstock?
We've been pedal to the metal for close on 5 months and just scraping by for logs. Which is to say I got plenty of trees in the bush but I need more staff to be able to run at this speed and log simultaneously.
Been plenty of days where I'd leave at 3am, get a load of logs in the yard by lunch... and be leaving again at 3am next morning with the yard pretty empty behind me. Just scraping by for months - and then the skidder broke down and... for the first time since we started I had a totally bare yard right down to the bed logs I stack other logs on being sawn. Lets call that little blown seal on a skidder a 15k repair job - $2100 for parts and labour and about 13k in lost work. Up and running again now and I got a couple loads in last week but by Tuesday I'll be chasing wood again.
And the wet season looms and my gut tells me we're due a big one. So in addition to what we need to feed the beast I need to be starting to stockpile. Figure I need 300 ton of hardwood into the yard between now and Christmas at a bare minimum, and I'm supposed to be running a rainforest hardwood harvest in there as well for another 100 ton of specialty logs and... time. I feel the clock ticking all day, so much to do.
Juggling, we're all good at it but I dunnno how I'm quite going to manage this unless someone skilled pops out of the woodwork to run a harvest for me.
4x4 there must be a way to get ahead on pallet stock, And on logs?
There is a way to do that, but the capital to do it is the hold up for us anyway. He and the pallet buyer wants them fresh, but I could stock up on logs but quickly run out of log buying money. I wouldnt want to have more than 6 or 8 truckloads of logs here. Last December through February we didnt get very many logs in and had sawn through all we had before the first of March.
Just today I got a call from the landowner next door that we logged out of last fall and through the winter. She let me cut 80 acres of her 240 and is willing to let me log another 40 acres of it. I went and drove over it with the 4 wheeler and there are some trees in there that will make logs I can use but nothing like what we logged for her before.
The other logger with a gn and skid steer has a 160 acre tract that I am supposed to start getting some logs from.
At least we have few logs starting to come our way.
PC
LL: Is there any way you can hire the logging out? I know that a bunch of loggers around here pretty much only custom cut for bigger outfits. I was talking with one of my friends who does it but I can't remember off the top of my head what the going rate is.
Peter: For the pallet stock, I pretty much load it on the truck as fast as I can make it, usually. The longest I've had cutstock in my yard waiting for a truck has been maybe a week and a half. They store it inside but usually it don't sit very long in their shed before they use it and they can really knock out some pallets. They sell my cutstock to another company they do business with and from what the drivers tell me, that place only buys in cutstock they don't even have a resaw and they have a humongous parking lot just filled up to the brim with cutstock and finished pallets. Ask Youngstump, in one of his videos of him sawing ash on youtube when they had just got their 70, you can see the camera guy pan out and they had what looked like a shipload of pallet cants in their yard in addition to logs up the wazoo. Pallet logs can store for quite awhile the biggest downside is when they get dried out its slower cutting, but it don't really hurt the lumber none. My main buyer there they have a scragg mill too but their parcel is very small so they're about filled up with 9-10 truck/pup loads and that's when they start sending the trucks to my yard. They also sell KD bagged firewood so they have another little spot where they keep firewood logs. I was talking to the guy that runs the firewood part of their operation and he said they have been shipping out 2 TT loads of palletized bagged firewood/week, and also trucking it out to the local gas stations in their contract and RV parks and stuff. Their little Multitek processor sure gets a workout. The guy running it wants to upgrade it but he knows that if they convince the bossman to upgrade he's gonna want 10 TT loads/week which they could do if they added two more kilns he thinks :D but they ain't got no room they're in the middle of town.
Paul, Don't logging take away from sawing? Over here loggers and trucker do their thing and I saw. True, money can be tight when the yard is full of logs. What I find is when I can get good logs I jump on it. Just find the $$$ somewhere like selling more lumber. Do you have a buyer for all you can cut like 4x4?
I can sell all the ties and grade oak that I can saw. The stringers would take more than I make sometimes, but are a little picky about end of the month stuff as they have to inventory every first of the month. So they may buy 2 loads a week for the first 2 weeks of the month and 1 load the third week and hardly ever do they buy any the last week. The 3x4 cants are a demand thing. I just try to have logs so I can cut them out when they need them.
The trick for me is that you almost always get 3x as many logs that wont grade. some of those will tie. The cant deal dont have to be perfect so I can use logs that wont tie to make them.
Ties 3x4 cants and stringers all pay about the same as 1com lumber, so if we are sawing for grade it has to be 1 com or better or it is getting made into stringers.
I buy every log that comes in. I just have to go hunting sometimes as we want to be sawing year around and some want to log in the fall winter and spring.
PC
60 miles north of new York city, I have to hide from logs. Being such a small operator I can't saw and stack fast enough. You can get all the open grown tree service junk and bury yourself. We also have nice hard wood around, especially red oak. In spite of this I have trouble keeping white oak and locust logs on the ground. Also to get pine in the fall for winter sawing is almost impossible. My kingdom for a log pond!
There's a lot I don't know about the tie and pallet market Paul.
:P
Quote from: 4x4American on September 23, 2017, 08:43:54 PM
LL: Is there any way you can hire the logging out? I know that a bunch of loggers around here pretty much only custom cut for bigger outfits. I was talking with one of my friends who does it but I can't remember off the top of my head what the going rate is.
30 years ago this was one of Australias major timber production areas but the feds locked up most of the rainforest resource under a world heritage listing in '88. The big mills progressively closed down over the next ten years and the contractors went with them. Still a few operating but most of my timber comes from an area about 5 hours south of them and they dont want to work that hard anyway. Also got to factor in that my euc hardwood (as opposed to rainforest hardwood) resource is a crown (state) allocation. None of the contractors have the 500 bits of paper required to operate in there - operators tickets/ insurance/ qualified to measure logs to the crown schedules/ equipment that meets the inspection criteria and on and on and on because they's the governmint and they can drown you in paper. (Makes it kinda hard to be a little guy but thats partly the point!!)
Every mill thats depended solely on logging contractors for supply in this region for the last 20 years has gone under, what can I say. Can't rely on them even cutting off private lots. I tried to get a few of them to load but the sticking point wasnt the money it was that none of them wanted to be serious enough to jump through the hoops. In a state where 85% of the timber land is state controlled that tells ya how serious they want to be. If they dont want to be that serious about their business I got no time for them in mine. We buy the odd load of logs in of a few of them but for guaranteed supply I depend on me. PITA but having skidders, dozers, log loaders, and trucks is par for the course for any serious sawmill hereabouts. Not that theres many of us left.
And... just because I didnt have enough headaches we quoted three big jobs last week and got all three. So we now need ballpark 180 ton of sawlog through the mill before the end of October
plus the 300 ton I thought I needed a week ago. All profits to pay off the now urgently required bigger truck. Sawmilling is a disease I tell ya...
Well here is another hitch!
I have been doing so well at getting logs in lately and Scott has been sawing like a son of a gun that I thought we had a handle on it. I had about 250 logs piled up here at the mill and another 12000 ft bought on a landing 6 mile away. I had hauled several loads of them home but got busy and didn't finish. I have a logger started on a 70 acre tract that will start coming in soon, but.........
It has rained. A lot. 8 of the last 9 days. I dont even know how much we have gotten but if it were snow it might be ten ft deep. Too wet to get logs hauled and too wet to log even with a skidder without making a big mess of someone else's place. I dont want to do that.
Scott has sawn 100 ties and then some this last week and the log pile is shrinking. Unless some show up we will be sawn completely out by next Friday. Rain in the forecast 2 of the next 6 days. Higher temps may help dry out a bit.
The logs I have on a landing may be accessable next week as they are on the top of a hill and should ''dry'' off fairly quick. I could get some of them before we run out.
Things they are a changing.PC
Cutting Ties I think will eat up logs fast. Cutting lumber is slower on the log pile. :D ;)
I get calls to cut Ties and pallet. I'm not setup for that.
Well 6 months later and not much has changed here either. Was like a bad case of deja vu reading back up that page...
Skidder breakdown. Truck Breakdown. Loader Breakdown. Skidder breakdown.... only thing that hasnt been offline in the last 6 months is me and I tell ya boys I'm feeling pretty worn.
And my log issue hasnt changed much either. We started to gain on it finally about 3 weeks back but a serious weather front has moved in and is dropping rain by the foot in places. I'll run out of logs Wednesday or Thursday this week then go back up the range and see what we can break this week and probably have to tow the truck out with the dozer as well.
*sigh*
Peter,
You are correct that ties can eat up the log pile pretty quickly, but they pay better for the center of the log than anything else we can do with it. Hardwood logs that we have in my area make real poor quality lumber in the heart. Ties must have the heart in them.
Ties pay about the same as 1com for the middle of the log which has some wood in it that is cull. The real plus to ties is that you are selling a big chunk of wood without sawing it all up.
PC
You sell the side boards too??
Yes everything we can make we sell.
It seems that you cannot find 1 company that wants it all. Grade lumber buyers will not buy ties and tie buyers will not buy grade lumber and neither will buy smaller cants like 4x6 or 3x4 that takes another company.
If it was easy everyone would do it.
PC
I hit like on that but like dont cover it... You got no idea how many times I tell myself that every week. :D
if it was easy everyone would do it.
Ain't it fun
I am juggling but it is not logs or lumber, it's jobs and customers. ::)
You portable guys dont have much I want.
PC
Except their overheads - Im jealous of anyone who can make a living at this game with only a truck, a mill,and a cant hook to keep running.
Quote from: paul case on February 28, 2018, 11:04:05 PM
You portable guys dont have much I want.
PC
I did that portable thing for years, A lot of problems you can't control.
That was the biggest reason I stopped.
Now I have 99% control. ;D
I said,
Not much they have I want.
PC
What is it you don't want?
I'm with Peter
I like to be in control
They want to buy my lumber or they don't
I got burned out by customers that know more than me in the contracting business.
Had a guy drive all the way from Cape Cod today to buy a load of pine slabs from me :)
Says he will buy a 100 a year
We will see
Bruno, contractors , with few exceptions, are the worst customers. They will order stuff and not come back over 50 per cent of the time. God help you if you take a down payment; you will have to store it forever and turn down offers. Most everything here goes on sticks in case I have to eat it. This is the biggest problem with taking lumber orders.
I dont want to have to pack fuel to the saw for one thing. I dont want to be that far away from the comforts of home and shop.
It would be kinda nice to not be having to do clean up every so often.
PC
Everybody has different likes, needs, wants and ambitions, personally I can see good things about both ways.
Paul,
You can't just saws em and leaves em. Me neither.
But I can. ;D
As he sees his mill bounce over a huge sawdust pile in the rearview mirror LOL
It is nice to know you don't have to stick the lumber while going down the road with a pocket full of $$$$
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2590.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1348701670) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2592.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1348701560) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2612.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1349130411) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2410.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1335839869) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2412.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1335839911) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCN2413.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1335839941)
And I all ways brought my log shifter :D
I have been going to build one of your log shifters, I have everything to do it, just have to wait till I get the mill out of the snowbank to get measurements. The thing just looks TOOOOO handy not to.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20540/2953/GetAttachment%5B1%5D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1297916088)
My first log shifter.
I have upgraded a couple times since but with the limited space in the barn I cant make Peter's cat work in my operation.
PC
I have a forklift log shifter, but I usually put several logs on my makeshift deck at a time, and have found that rolling them on to the loader they sometimes roll to one side or the other. I just think that roller log shifter will take some of the spent energy trying to roll them straight out of the equasion, and I do not want to have to get the forklift every log or three either.
Yes. Me too. Thinking about a live deck so they would stay straight. logs with big taper roll more on the big end making them need shifted. A live deck doesn't roll them, they ride to the mill.
PC
I have to use the old "hold and roll" trick shifting the log back and forth to adjust where it hits the loader arms.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_3957.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1520124987)
We held the far end and drug the near end to the sawmill. The far end was then rolled to the loader.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_3959.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1520124964)
Then it was just right. :)
Same thing I have to do
For one of their larger mills, Woodmizer makes toe rollers that look like like a shaft of sprockets side by, instead of smooth rolls. They have hydraulic motors mounted to them so that they can rotate in eiter direction. To shift a log you simply raise it on the toe rollers and power the log up or down the mill.
I'm thinking of adding these to my mill extension. I think they would come in handy and they don't affect the normal function of the toe rollers.
Yea, but I is lazy, and have everything to build one of those shifters, so as soon as I get my mill to town, I gots to have one.
I can easily adjust a log forward or backward by raising it with the toe rollers and using my end tong, chain, and side supports.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0248.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041241)
That is simple enough but it first has to be centered well enough for the loader to safely load it onto the sawmill bed.
Well.
Once again I have a new decision to make, We had a lot of rain about 2 weeks ago that stopped log moving around here for a week or more. I think we got down to only having 2000 ft of logs here on the lot. Last Friday and Saturday it had dried enough we could get in to haul some at the 6 mile away job and we got them all hauled in, about 15 gooseneck loads. So that made maybe 5 TT loads on the yard. Then we had 2 TT loads come in last night after dark from the 70 acre job. We got lots of logs on the yard.
I had decided that all the butt logs from the 70 ac job would be sold to another mill. I think maybe that all the rest of the logs on that job is going to be sold as we may not be able to saw up what we got here by the end of May.
I also have 2 other logging jobs coming in, being cut by guys that haul in on gooseneck trailers. I will be getting them along and that may make it longer til we saw out of logs.
I dont look for it to happen but it could be that before the time that we could get all that is on the yard sawn that markets could change and pay more, less or not buy at all. I dont worry about it but it is possible. It has happened before.
PC
Peter,
Why sell the butt logs? Are they harder for you to saw or what? I'd figure they and the wood from them would bring top dollar
The butt logs will pay more than the lumber brings. I have a buyer will pay $1.20/bf for sel/btr oak lumber, but he'll pay my friend over $1.20/bf for the logs.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 07, 2018, 09:56:21 AM
Peter,
Why sell the butt logs? Are they harder for you to saw or what? I'd figure they and the wood from them would bring top dollar
I think you have Peter and Paul mixed up, Peter is the better-looking one. ;D
As long as he isn't "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" (Old saying).(https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I was thinking that around here it would be ok to rob Paul to pay Peter.
Same same... We can make a 25% profit on selling certain species as logs, barked, loaded into a container for export. I can't truck them home and saw them and expect to make that kind of profit.
Raining sriously here for the last week. I'll go today for a look to see if I might get a truck in where my logs are situated because the yard is as bare as I've ever seen it (again) I really need to find a long term solution to the log truck issue.
Maybe a pond Paul? Or a series of them that you can pump out on an as required basis? I tell ya I'm thinking that way because I need some way to hold enough in reserve without degrade occuring to ride through these weather induced ups and downs. Of course, I'd also need enough $ to buy that many logs in a hit but... whatta ya do? Can't make money without logs to saw
Are ponds even doable anymore, or has the epa regulated them out, I never see them anymore, see a lot of sprinklers running on log decks down south though.
I am pretty sure you can rob Peter to pay Paul but Paul still will not have a good use for Peters Cat so leave him enough to make the payments and maintenance bills. ;D
I sell those butt logs because they are the highest dollar logs and if they sit out in the sun for a month or so they will get sap stain/degrade and not be worth as much. We saw on orders and if we had a bunch of grade logs on the lot no doubt we would get busy with orders and not get them sawed before they turn. As for a pond, I am not sure that is a solution for me. I too couldn't buy enough to make a better storage solution really help me out.
I think it is just going to be a fact that sometimes you may run out of logs to saw. It seems I can hedge my bet some by having a place I can go log and bring in some when it gets tight, but that is not really the reason behind having a mill. For me it is being at home and not in the woods that is a big benefit to me. I think I will just try to have a place to cut some myself in case of running out and be sure to try to keep a couple guys logging somewhere.
PC
Paul,
Thanks for the answer. I hope that works well for you.
Peter,
Sorry for the mix up. I forgot to count the digits or I would have noticed the difference immediately.
The $1.20/bf is what my friend's log buyer told him he'll be averaging on the job he's on right now. The prices range from $.50-1.80/bf on the logs. I can't touch those prices. I guess the low grade red oak is going to china and theyr storing the logs in the containers in the ocean. That market will be dropping off next year I heard.
We're on around the same money for China, anything dark coloured pretty much -browns and reds - unlike the Japanese market where they like lighter tones. Bulk of the eucalyptus species would work out around 50-80 cents US but size is generous, we can come down to about a 15" top. They like the eucs because they add a whole lot of strength to a ply when peeled and the new spindleless peelers make those little logs viable.
The issue with running your own harvest to backstop your regular loggers is equipment. You start with a chainsaw and tractor and start chasing efficiency and end up like me: I have too many dollars tied up in machinery and it's all old and a bottomless pit for money, im not big enough to justify newer gear, too big to operate without it, and in my case at least there are no contractors to take some pressure off. Being vertically integrated has an upside sure, but its also giving you a whole nother set of jobs to fit in
We have a lot of logging that can be done quite efficently with a loader and a saw. I use my skid loader and already have several saws and haul in on my truck and trailer that i use to haul lumber.
I have 2 guys that bring me logs and work some of my logging jobs that have this kind of set up.They can cut and haul in around 1500 ft per day only working about 6 hours and alone. That pays them $375 which isnt too bad for 6 hours worth of work. It works well for them and me too, but they do not log 5 days a week.
I have another guy who has a skidder and a saw that logs the too steep stuff and he is the reason we are so full of logs right now. We had him a job and it made about 22000 ft and we just finished hauling it in. We had another job for him that he went right to and cut the walnut out first(which also gets sold) and that only took a couple weeks and another week off for bad weather and now he sent me 2 TT loads and I am about out of room to stack stuff. I think all the rest of the job he is on will be sold from the woods to another hungry mill. Plus the other 2 guys have been bringing in stuff so my best guess is we have 35000 ft on the yard.
We got stuff to saw.PC
I don't know anything about the chinese market, but I do know they buy a lot of spruce from up here too.
Not wanting to think bad thoughts about about anybody but I wonder if we are shipping them any bugs to repay for the pests we have gotten in years past. ???
I will send them some PPB's UPS Ground.
Well, so much for the weather mans "clearing".
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/696f9ef887c6fe2771febc1d431c4cc8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1520567193)
That's the main highway south towards my currently active harvest zone. NMP because there's about 10 places the road is cut between here and there. Flood peak expected Sunday and she's still bucketing down.... as I say we get rain like Alaska gets snow.
Might have 2 days logs in the yard. Then we can do some maintenance, or go water skiing over the back pasture or something. :D
$10 for ice!!! Wow!! Sell the sawmill and start making ice! :D
(Big bags.)
Guys got to charge like that to buy a new freezer next week. :D :D
Predicted peak puts another 6 foot over that. That town (Ingham) is real delta land, dead flat and a whole lot of water comes down the Herbert River every 40 years and drowns the place. Weve had close on 36" of rain in the last4 days and not looking like letting up yet.
Like cyclones it's good for business. People rebuild. Insurance premiums rise. Crops keep growing. Life goes on.
With the constant rain, I was at a megamill the other day and it was as empty of logs as I'd ever seen it. I was talking to the owner and he said he had only 2 hours of logs on the yard before he ran out, they do 50 MBF a day. He'd told his logging crews to work in the rain, and not to come back unless they had logs on the truck. The reason I was there was because I had put in an order for a few thousand bdft of high grade ash logs (they resell high grade logs to me) and I was told to come pick them up. Well, when I got there, the logs were gone and in their place was stacks of FAS boards ready for me. He told me that he had to keep his crews busy, so they sawed up my logs for me. That's cutting it pretty close.
Quote from: longtime lurker on March 08, 2018, 10:54:54 PMWell, so much for the weather mans "clearing".
It is clearing. looks like it's clear up to your knees now and will be clear up to you shoulders soon.
... and still it rains.
So todays questions is whats better: heli logging, or rafting your logs home? :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/just_send_it.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1520715448)
NMP, because I aint going out in the rain to take pictures. National Route 1 - just send it!!!
Wow
*sigh*
Was it only 2 months ago my biggest issue was rain stopping logs getting in the yard? Thing about weather is of course... its a problem that solves itself. Bad at the time but you kinda know that beyond the inconvenience things will improve.
Now a real problem is: My biggest single customer just went under.
I'm going to take a hit - short term - There be bills to pay and the money aint coming. Not bad because it was a quiet month but still... I was sailing pretty close to the edge because of the seasonal considerations and its not going to make things easier. Some of them might have to wait and I hate doing that - as a little guy I know how that feels myself when someone does it to me.
But thats just this month, and its a month and I'm that used to running with the ass out my trousers that thats nothing new. But I got some big concerns around the corner: I just had a 200k a year hole punched into my annual projected revenue and I cant take that hit at my size and shrug it off. Best go find myself a new wholesaler I guess... or finally set up the retail operation I been talking about for years... or get the hell out of this business and just play around with the mill on weekends.
headdesk headdesk headdesk . Be nice to catch a break that didnt mean a trip to the emergency room occasionally.
longtime lurker, I realize that the below comments do not describe your situation but maybe they will be helpful to others trying to establish and grow a business.
Happened to me when two years ago when I noticed that my all time largest customer started standing behind me when I was sawing and asking some questions about what I was doing and why.
Well, he bought a sawmill and this past year was the first year since I have been sawing that he did not call. I am small, part time, and my customer base is continually increasing so even though I lost him I still had an increase last year over the previous years. To grow a business you gotta continually stretch out and be aggressive.
I have seen it written and will repeat it here; "Never build a business around a single customer or other business". When they fail, so will you.
Oh you're right Lynn, and I knew it: I had a lot of eggs in one basket. Problem was while he was a major part of my revenue I was only a part of his lumber supply and every time I increased capacity he just took more... it's hard to expand your customer base when you can barely keep up with what you got.
I was pretty suprised at this though - my concern was about a regional slowdown which was why I was kinda looking for another volume guy in a different area. Best kinda better turn into seriously looking huh?
I know it does not always work out for others as I have had it work out for me, but each time it looked like I might have to quit one business something better would come along.
In the wood business it has been that way for me for sure. It takes looking and searching for that new outlet or maybe even looking where you have been before, so that means be sure to not burn bridges you have crossed. I have recently sold a lot of lumber to a past customer that had not bought from me for a couple years. Yeah, dont put your eggs in one basket either.
A mill I sell a lot of wood to from time to time has had to deal with a business going under when they owed him for 60 days worth of pallets. The business was taken over by the US marshals and it seemed like he had just lost all that 60 days worth of income. It didn't work that way and when things got straitened out he was paid for all they had received from him and he still has the contract to build pallets for the company under new owners.
Keep yer head up. The next paying customer is just a phone call away. PC
Quote from: longtime lurker on May 05, 2018, 08:27:03 AM
Oh you're right Lynn, and I knew it: I had a lot of eggs in one basket. Problem was while he was a major part of my revenue I was only a part of his lumber supply and every time I increased capacity he just took more... it's hard to expand your customer base when you can barely keep up with what you got.
I was pretty suprised at this though - my concern was about a regional slowdown which was why I was kinda looking for another volume guy in a different area. Best kinda better turn into seriously looking huh?
Can you get any of the business from the company that went under. May be an easy in if it fits what you can do. Just a suggestion, might open some new doors for you.
Can I just be the guy that stands in the back and shouts.......
DONT GIVE UP
KEEP LOOKING
SOMETHING BETTER MUST BE JUST AROUND THE CORNER
?
PC
Yeh I dunno guys... I'm at one of those major decision points for sure.
I've worked for peanuts for 10 years - everything I've made beyond enough to eat etc etc has just been plowed straight back into the business.
I own all the equipment, for what thats worth. (which is nothing as we all know because a sawmill is a liability unless its cutting wood)
I've got a half million dollar mortgage - but I can service that working for someone else
I've got a government contract for log supply thats good for another 1.2 MMBF over the next 15 months. It would probably get an extension if I wanted... more importantly I am contractually obligated to harvest those logs... but I could cut them and sell them to someone else.
I've got a good rep for putting out a commercial grade product, on time. I do a lot of the smaller, short lead time stuff that the mega mills cant match me on lead time for, and those oddball jobs the mega mills wont touch
Demand is good to the north of me and flat to the south but... I can survive this if I want to, for at least long enough to find another volume buyer.
I'm not over sawmilling - dont think I ever will be. I still get a smile every time I see whats inside after that first cut.
But I've had a gutful of the lumber business, sick of the financial juggling and not spending enough time away from work and just plain old working for nothing.
I believe in me, and I believe that I've got a good long term plan, and I believe theres still money to be made in this business if you're good and you're smart, and you work hard.
But me believes there should still be time for fishing, and taking a holiday shouldnt be such a drama.
Sit down and think it through I guess. This industry is not a career or a business or a job... it's a disease.
I hear you lurker. I am at the same point you are. I am a smaller operation than you. Been making a bit of a living, thank god the wife is very well employed, and now the Amish have come to town in large numbers and screwed up the local economy. Sawing for .20 cents a foot and selling their lumber .20 cents cheaper than I do. It not as good a product but the mom and pop do it yourself's love anything Amish and like to tell friends they do business with the Amish. Can't add value to your lumber and build a shed to sell because they have one for sale for $200 less. Been looking for some kind of niche with no luck.
At some point, it has got to be easier to go back to work for someone and feed the sawmill addiction behind closed doors. So far just been to stubborn to let them win. Common sense tells me if I am going to trade a old dollar for a new one don't work your butt off doing it. But I have always resisted the voices in my head so far.
Longtime,
We're with you. You're a good person, and good things will happen to good people.
As you said, sit down and think it through. There's always options, some better than others. I don't think the disease is sawdust, I think it comes from being your own boss, doing your own thing, and usually having fun doing it. Sometimes, things like this are an oppurtunity for clarity, a way to stop from going too far, from going too deep, where there is no chance at recovery.
Grab a fishing pole, a couple beers, take a breather, and things will fall into place.
A dozen or so years ago my biggest customer was bought out and in 3 months we went from selling 80% to them to 0%. Best thing ever. I was forced to find new customers. The internet was and is my friend. With a good web site, customers from around the country started calling and sending checks. Almost all orders are custom orders from a few boards to truckloads. So what can you do that others can not do or do not want to do? With custom orders, you get to set the price instead of take the price. As CS says, take a moment, drink a beer, catch a fish or two and ponder the situation.
Never chase money. It is a roadmap to misery.
Mark 10:25
Chin up big guy.
Better things will come along im sure!!
Cheers
Justin
Since this was brought back up to the top I will give an update on my situation.
We have been swimming in logs all winter. I have had my 2 guys with skid loader/trailers working all winter and also one who has a skidder started a 60 acre tract. We actually sold most of the logs from that timber and it all totaled just over $60,000 worth. That was pretty good timber, more than 1/3 walnut.
At the mill we have had a couple changes in sales. We spent several months cutting out a lot of 1x for board and batten paneling and a lot of other custom stuff. We sawed out 1 whole timber frame building for a wedding venue with 10x10 posts and full 2'' rafters and fully decked with 1'' oak lumber. That one can be seen on facebook at Williams riverside. Lots of good pics of the project there. We started selling our tie siding and grade boards differently. As much as we can that grades above 3a we cut 5/4 and sell it to a broker who handles the hauling and pays as good as we were getting for the avg of selling 4/4 grade and 4/4 x3.5x48'' for pallet stringers. No chopping to length and various widths from 6'' and up. Very little of what we cut misses that. He takes 7500 ft loads. We still are sawing for a couple companies pallet needs and seperate off low grade logs for that. Just last week we sawed out some 3x4-10 for my longest running customer and thats good as we had 3 tt loads of logs saved up just for that. We also sold 2tt loads of lumber to a pallet company who was having trouble getting enough lumber to run. He was happy to get our lumber and we were happy to sell him some.
2 of the lumber/ cant sales I mentioned have been a long running relationship of over 7 years each.
Things have been rolling along real nice and now we are fixing to get busy with pasture spraying,haying and church camps dividing our time at the mill.
That is a good kind of busy.
PC