At work we are having trouble with frozen logs not sawing too good leaving a hump at the front of the log. We're running a Baker Dominator 50hp 3ph and turbo 7 blades. Anyone think that 4deg blades would help on the frozen logs? We only use 7deg blades as 10deg blades are not fast enough or cut flat enough in hardwood.
Other people have said the dip at the beginning of a cut is from
the gov. of the engine dropping rpm's until it stables out.
With 50hp elec. that drop in rpm is very small.
Quote from: JB Griffin on January 06, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
With 50hp elec. that drop in rpm is very small.
It still might pay to check with an rpm meter.
My only issue with 4 degree blades is the amount of saw dust left on boards and the below zero temps caused the boards to freeze to the cant. I also had to enter slower to stop the rise on entry.
Common thought is 4° blades for frozen logs. I wouldn't know. When it's cold out I try not to mill. I try to hibernate.
A hump at the beginning of a cut on the cant side is called "blade push off" as the blade is being pushed off the cant. Usually that is a sign that the blade is dull or that the set is not right for the log type.
But it could be just that the ends are hard and frozen.
I use 4° all the time in the winter.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on January 06, 2017, 12:04:19 PM
...
I use 4° all the time in the winter.
Jim Rogers
Another vote for 4° blades. Derek at Kasco set up with a box and they are doing fine on frozen cottonwood.
Turbo 7° have worked well for me. Before that, I used 4°.
10° rise at the beginning of the cut way worse than 4° in frozen wood. Steve
WM 7°x55x1¼, With the set push out to 30. Flat going in, cutting flat in the middle and leaving cutting flat. ;D
Hardwood and soft.
I got that in frozen and half froze logs, mainly when sawing the butt end first though, seems like some blades just do it worse than others, been grinding mine right at 5 degrees and slow the entry a hair, then pour it on, tricky, bout rather saw froze than half froze, rather be fishing too!
Where you live I would bet the log is not frozen all the way through . Its got to be down near zero for a while to freeze them through .
:P...:-X
D
We had the same problem with our Baker 3665D this year. We run .055 2" blades. We use exclusively WM 7 turbos. We found they are not liking the frozen chestnut oak at all. WM doesn't make a 4 degree blade in 2"width so we have been looking elsewhere.
We have been told 4 degree is the way to go.
We recrowned the wheels yesterday and that seemed to make a difference even with the 7 turbo. I was able to crank the feed speed pretty good. I only had issues with 2 of the small diameter white oaks.
It seems those small diameter frozen logs are quite "hard" to get good cuts.
Brian
We just got our spare bandwheels back from Baker, got em recrowned and new bearings put in but ain't got em put on yet. I suspect that the recrowned wheels and a alignment wouls do the trick. Thanks
Jclvsall, how do the 2" blade work for ya'll?
We love the 2" machine. It would be hard to ever go back to the 1 1/4 or 1 1/2.
With a sharp blade and everything tuned good I can run at about 1.5fps.
I generally don't run that fast unless we are pushing to finish a load.
It took a little experimentation to get it to run well. The blades didnt want to track well when we first got the machine but we figured it out.
What does your Dominator run? Do you saw toward yourself or away?
Brian
Hello,
Phone is busy with calls like this. I have found as you have there is something not quite right with the mill. Could be drive belt tension, blade strain or tension. Roller guides worn or bearing tight. Alignment of the mill. ( blade guide arm loose) When the sawing gets tough ( not sure what word to use here) Frozen, dry, wide and you get the idea.
Good tip. Have a blade that you know worked well hanging on the wall only use it when you have an issue. If it does not work then look at other areas. Review the maintenance section of your manual. I am sure this is not brand specific.
Anyone can saw nice logs! ::)
As I have posted before the 7 /39 degree or Turbo blade works very well in the tough cutting woods. If everything is maintained with the mill it will cut. You must have feed rate of the saw head correct. Sawing with a slow feed rate increases sawdust in the cut and creates wash board and many other issues.
I have slowed down the SFM Surface Feet per Min of the blade in extreme conditions when nothing else worked.
I hope this helps.
Marty
Brian we run 1.5 in blades on our Dominator 7deg turbo. Boss ordered this one set up like a Blue Streak with the saw station at the rear, to replace the Blue Streak we had. We have had real good luck with these blades, getting 3 sharpenings on average with blade life of 4-6mbf.
Blades are 1.5x.055x20ft
A local band manufacturer/sharpener sells notched tooth blades for frozen logs. They require a lot of power to run them but I know guys that swear by them. I have a couple but don't have quite enough power to run them well. I will say they remove sawdust better than any other blade I've used. I can get you their number if you'd like to call. They are Mennonites and I don't think they have a website
Notched tooth blade? This I gotta see. My curiosity is piqued. Have you seen one before? Where is the notch? How big is it? Is it a round notch like if you used a chainsaw file? ???
WM has a new band with big notches. Haven't tried any get.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/1961vortex3_logo_Vortex_blade.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1484163631)
Here is a picture.
It is made for the ReSaw. Clean cants, less than 8" in width. I have used them for primary brake down and they worked well. This is a 10 degree hook angle and .042 thickness. 1 1/4" width. They have been working on other thickness for testing and have not released these for sale yet.
There is very little sawdust between the cuts.
They can be resharpened with a CBN wheel.
Thanks
Marty
Jclvsall do ya'll have any trouble with the 2" blades cupping?
The WM turbo blades worked great for me up until I got into frozen logs. Then I found regular 7's and Kasco 7's set at .012" work the best for me. The big boys put what is called a frost notch in their blades. It is because frozen sawdust doesn't act like regular sawdust, it rolls in the gullet like a snowball (iirc). The frost notch is put in back from the tip of the tooth in the gullet, and it breaks up the snowballed sawdust. I have seen it done only on 8" and 12" wide bands. The saw filer was telling me that I can emulate this concept by cutting a flat spot at the back of the gullet behind the tooth.
Try reducing your set down around .012", it was night and day for me. Cleared all the sawdust and cut flat.
Might just have to try that 4x4. Thanks
Nope they do great
No problem, gmmills told me he has gone as far down as .010", and to conduct your testing in increments of .003" and also that if your blade is heating, you don't have enough set.
I have found that when I have too little set, I get a cup on the cant.
When I was dropping off carbide blades at the big grade mill today I got a picture of that frost notch I mentioned. It might be hard to see in the picture. This is on a 12" double cut saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/IMG_0178.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1484277347)
I think I remember seeing a Simonds blade that had some sort of frost notch.
Thanks Fellers lot to think about. Brian are ya'll running the bullet guides or rollers?
A dumb question from a mechanic 'cause I'm not familiar with saw filing. What are the circle marks at the bottom of the gullet?
Quote from: Oliver05262 on January 13, 2017, 09:15:29 PM
A dumb question from a mechanic 'cause I'm not familiar with saw filing. What are the circle marks at the bottom of the gullet?
Hey. I was wondering the same thing.
Not a dumb question. I was wondering the same thing.
PC
Here are the notched tooth blades I was talking about.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30088/WP_20160606_004.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1484362628)
And what the cut looked like(I didn't wipe any sawdust off after the cut)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30088/WP_20160606_002.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1484362627)
Etroupe, Lenox Chipsweep is what those are called, I think.
Quote from: barbender on January 14, 2017, 12:06:05 AM
Etroupe, Lenox Chipsweep is what those are called, I think.
I looked those up, these look the same but they are from a local saw manufacturer. They weld there bands there and sharpen. I saw that the lenox ones online for $33. From the local saw shop I think they were $18.50 for a 14'6" band.
Reply #26 people! It's the marks from making the frost notch.
Vise marks to hold the blade, count the rings will tell how many times it was done. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
My guess would be 6 times ?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/6_times~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1484405151)
I find saw blade science interesting. Does this make me a loser in today's society? Next question: do I care if I'm a loser in today's society? ;D
Jb we run the bullets on the 2" mill. The 2" mill has thicker wheels than the 1.5 " mills.
We found that with the.055 7°turbos from WM we set the top bullets on the blade then tighten. The bottom we put a piece of metal banding between the bullet and blade as a spacer. Then tighten and remove banding to leave a small space. This reduces heat and noise.
Quote from: jclvsall on January 14, 2017, 03:03:45 PM
Jb we run the bullets on the 2" mill. The 2" mill has thicker wheels than the 1.5 " mills.
We found that with the.055 7°turbos from WM we set the top bullets on the blade then tighten. The bottom we put a piece of metal banding between the bullet and blade as a spacer. Then tighten and remove banding to leave a small space. This reduces heat and noise.
What kind of guides do you run on the 1.5" mill?
Knotched with a small diameter carbide end mill would be my guess, those rings resemble touch off marks, seen a many of them, just not on band blades, we used magic markers or dykem but still left a witness mark usually, I say if it works, good,
On the 1.5 we run rollers
What do you like better the rollers or the bullets or are they both good?
I thought he made the frost notches with the same thing he swadges the blades with but idk I'll have to watch him do it next time I'm there
JB and jclvsall I have been using 1 1/2" 7 deg turbo blade as my general purpose blade since it was first released. It performs great in all types of hardwoods that I cut. This holds true until the logs get frozen. When the logs freeze up I have to go back to a 4 deg blade in order to get the cut quality that our customers demand. I don't just purchase another blade profile manufactured at 4 deg hook angle. I take a 7/39 deg turbo blade and re-profile to a 4/39 turbo. I use a specific 4/39 CBN wheel to make this happen. This wheel was developed to exclusively re-profile the 7 deg turbo to a 4 deg hook angle. Doing this allows me to purchase 1 blade profile for all my sawing conditions. This CBN wheel is available exclusively from our fellow forum member Cutting Edge. I have been doing this for the last 2 winters and the 4/39 profile performs better than the WM stock 4/32 blade profile. jclvsall this option may be for you considering the tooth profile limitations that WM has imposed on their 2" Silver Tip blade stock.
For all of you that think a 7 deg blade, especially with added extra set, will cut all frozen hardwoods productively, I can assure you it will not. If anyone doubts what I am stating, Come to OH and try to cut a frozen W. Oak with 7 deg blade. It will make some of nicest wavy W. Oak firewood you have ever seen.
Gmmills I had a long phone conversation with Richard (Cutting Edge) a couple years ago about this. He was working on getting Kasco to make them. Not sure how that ever turned out.
If/when we get a cbn grinder we will certainly try that.
You are right the turbos get crappy when the logs freeze. I found last week they were humping over the logs. Not rising in the cut and making thickNthins but literally cutting cupped boards. It was amazing. The blade was literally trying to follow the rings. The weirdest part is it would do it in one log then cut perfect in the next then crappy then perfect. I guess the logs in the sun were thawing but the ones under the pile were not.
4x4 we like both guides. We hated the bullets until we went to the .055 7° turbos and dropped the bottom ones out of play. Now they work great!
But to be honest the 1.5" mill with rollers and .055 7° turbos can just about keep up!
I have a roller designed in my head for the 2" machine. Now to just get to the shop and build it or get Floyd to do it.
Brian
Tried my first WM 4 just recently and liked it.
Had a guy bring some red Oak to saw. ( we don't get much of that in MT)
green and frozen.
I was happy with the blade striate and true I did have to scrap off saw dust.
Cut two orders of lodgepole pine cut just as well.
Didn't see much slow down in cut speed.
I lose more time in material handling than saw time.
Brian, what kind of footage and life are ya'll gettin? Me and th boss have been talking about going to 2" blades and just weighing the pros and cons.
Quote from: jclvsall on January 15, 2017, 11:56:04 PM
Gmmills I had a long phone conversation with Cutting Edge a couple years ago about this. He was working on getting Kasco to make them. Not sure how that ever turned out.
It's coming !! ;D Perseverance paid off. Now we just have to be patient for production to begin. I'll leave it at that, so not to hijack the thread. ;)
The ring marks are from swadging the teeth and the frost notch is grount in with what the saw filer calls a plunge grinder. Vitrified wheel stone. I asked him why they didn't use a cbn and he said that stuff is too fancy pants and that the turn of the century plunge grinder he uses works great lol.
4x4: You stole all my answers again! Darn you, you have learned too much for a young feller. This cold weather really brings out the sawing problems. See you in the spring, Doug