Does anyone who does custom sawing have any tricks to get there customer to stack there lumber better?
After doing sawing for a customer I hate driving by and seeing the good lumber I just sawed degrading because of how they stack it. I try to explain it clearly yet often see
lumber left dead stacked weeks after being sawed
lumber stacked on a crooked foundation causing twisted boards
lumber stacked with too few stickers
and lumber piles covered with a tarp or put into a building right away.
I was thinking of drawing up some type of diagram that shows the right and many wrong ways to stack lumber.
I often feel like I am being very bossy when I keep correcting them on how to stack there lumber after I already explained it from the beginning.
I give them the attached instruction sheets if they are going to bring the lumber back to me to finish off in one of the kilns. The dimensions are optimized for my current kiln carts and standard stack dimensions.
I'll also provide this same info even if they are not going to bring the lumber back.
And does that work? Most often it doesn't matter how many times I correct them the customers are incapable of keeping the stickers straight above the ones below and keeping. In the end it is there lumber but they are paying a lot to get it sawn so I want them to get the highest quality they can get. Usually if it is poplar or or pine utility lumber if they stack it halfway decently I don't comment too much after the first few times trying to correct them but I have a couple jobs coming up with mostly walnut and maple and I am trying to make sure he has dry stickers or dry lumber to make stickers and sheet metal on hand for stacking the lumber and I don't know how seriously he is taking my suggestions. I am trying to get him to have around 200 dry 4 foot stickers on hand and I just don't think he will.
Quote from: scsmith42 on April 12, 2017, 02:08:48 PM
I give them the attached instruction sheets if they are going to bring the lumber back to me to finish off in one of the kilns. The dimensions are optimized for my current kiln carts and standard stack dimensions.
I'll also provide this same info even if they are not going to bring the lumber back.
Remember what Forrest said. "Stupid is as Stupid does." Some folks are enthralled by the idea of having their trees sawn into lumber. Unfortunately, they have little interest in doing it correctly, and obtaining quality lumber.
I try to explain to them that all the money they spent having me make the lumber could be wasted if they don't stack and sticker and get air moving through it or use it sooner, rather than later. Most of my customers seem to get that ;)
I have a web page similar to the information that scsmith provides, some are better than others.
http://www.shadecustomsawing.com/drying/Drying_your_wood.htm
What most customers do not realize is that the real work starts after the boards are sawn.
WDH
You are right on :)
It's more work than they think and some get sick of it fast :)
The problem is that there priorities are different than ours.
Stacking and stickering wood is just not on there list.
I instruct them on proper stacking, give them hemlock stickers and move on.On hardwoods I dont supply stickers
About half the people that help on our club mill can't sticker they can't even keep the pile the same width . start out at 42 inches top out at 52 . would go wider but the stickers are only 50 inches .
It's hard to get people who have never stacked lumber to sticker stack properly. I have a friend who comes and helps me every so often on the weekends and he can never seem to keep a square stack. I'm sawing and he's stacking so I'm not paying attention to him, then I turn around take one look shut the mill down and tell him it looks like a boy scout stacked that pile of wood is that the best you got??? :D
He's even a good builder, has built million dollar barns and homes as the project manager and has been in the trenches doing the work but when it comes to stacking and sticking lumber he just doesn't care enough.
I was thinking about this before I seen it maybe 20min ago driving home. I was randomly thinking about a portable job I did 2 winters ago when the guy in charge provided all sorts of help for me, but he was nowhere to be found. So on top of keeping over 5 (the most there was 7 one day) workers busy, he wanted me to take charge and stand over them and tell them how to stack the lumber. Well I found there just wasn't enough words in the English language to teach these rough, toothless, never-taken-a-shower, sting-your-nose-when-you-breath-in-near-them boys to stack lumber properly. They can't even work a tooth brush let alone stack a board. Nice enough boys but they only get paid from the neck down and thats how it was. So I was wondering today how his 1/2" paneling dried. Last I saw it when I left there it was bowed hard underneath a crooked pile about sitting in the mud. I told the boss how bad a job they did and that I couldn't get them to do any better. Not sure if he ever fixed it but he's been back a few times having me saw stuff for him.
Many people do not realize that YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLACE TO STACK THE LUMBER :). Once sawn, it tends to pile up :D.
All you can do is show them one of your piles and tell them how to do it and how important it is. After that its their problem, tough love. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on April 12, 2017, 08:31:27 PM
All you can do is show them one of your piles and tell them how to do it and how important it is. After that its their problem, tough love. Frank C.
That's how I do it. I point to my stacks and say if their stacks don't look like mine, they are doing it wrong. After that, it's their lumber and their choice.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 12, 2017, 10:33:12 PM
That's how I do it. I point to my stacks and say if their stacks don't look like mine, they are doing it wrong. After that, it's their lumber and their choice.
smiley_thumbsup
I make every effort to explain stickering . One job in paticular was a serious amount of red oak . I knew the guy well he made it clear to me that he knew more than I did about it so I just smiled and kept sawing .
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on April 12, 2017, 02:43:49 PM
And does that work? Most often it doesn't matter how many times I correct them the customers are incapable of keeping the stickers straight above the ones below and keeping. In the end it is there lumber but they are paying a lot to get it sawn so I want them to get the highest quality they can get. Usually if it is poplar or or pine utility lumber if they stack it halfway decently I don't comment too much after the first few times trying to correct them but I have a couple jobs coming up with mostly walnut and maple and I am trying to make sure he has dry stickers or dry lumber to make stickers and sheet metal on hand for stacking the lumber and I don't know how seriously he is taking my suggestions. I am trying to get him to have around 200 dry 4 foot stickers on hand and I just don't think he will.
Quote from: scsmith42 on April 12, 2017, 02:08:48 PM
I give them the attached instruction sheets if they are going to bring the lumber back to me to finish off in one of the kilns. The dimensions are optimized for my current kiln carts and standard stack dimensions.
I'll also provide this same info even if they are not going to bring the lumber back.
For the most part it works; occasionally it doesn't. Usually I will explain thoroughly and straighten a few bad stickers if I see them. Most folks get the hint.
They will never do it. But if they were, they would be asking and looking at your piles. I have over 100 M of 1x on both sides of the road to get in here and everyone thinks and says it's stockade fencing .
Basically, I sticker the lumber for them and teach them how to do it as I go.
First, I talk to them before I even go out for the job and tell them that the lumber will need to be stacked properly for drying. I make sure they have a place to put it, hopefully under cover, under a roof, in a garage, barn, etc.
I bring stickers with me to get them started, and/or we cut stickers from trimmed 1" boards as we saw their lumber to leave for them.
Before I turn on the saw, we set up a stack for the lumber to "sit" for the duration of drying time -- somewhere out of direct sunlight, up on a hill if possible, away from dripping water, mud, industrial waste, whatever.
First log I cut is 4x4s for setting the lumber onto (unless they have something available already).
Then, as the lumber comes off the mill > I < stack the first coarse, and set the stickers for the next one.
Then I stack the next course, showing the customer as I go how to line up edges, and keep the stack neat.
Then I hand them stickers and tell them to place them directly over those below, no room for error.
Then as the boards get laid down for next courses, and the stickers get knocked around, I re-set them as they should be and tell the customer to be neat about it.
After a couple of courses, the customer catches on, and then I let them do the stacking, checking after each course to make sure they are not overbuilding the pile, keeping the edges neat, and stickers on top of one another.
When its all over, I talk to them about covering the lumber, either with sheet metal, roofing, plastic sheeting, whatever they have.
I explain ... no covering the edges, make sure air flow can happen, etc.
If they don't have anything to cover, we put another layer of sticks on top, and we dig through the waste for slabs to use to lay a "roof" on the top layer that will help shed water off the pile.
This seems to work fairly well. Most customers get it after a bit.
Quote from: scully on April 13, 2017, 08:59:22 AM
I make every effort to explain stickering . One job in paticular was a serious amount of red oak . I knew the guy well he made it clear to me that he knew more than I did about it so I just smiled and kept sawing .
Ran into that myself about three years ago. The client said he was going to stack the boards in the crawl space underneath his house. One 8x16 louver vent one each side of the foundation. I told him he would be growing mushrooms within 1 month. He told me he knew what he was doing.
I put him on the auto-reject list on my phone when I left the job.
A sawmiller worrying about how a customer treats their lumber would be like a mechanic worrying about a customer not checking the oil in their car, or a doctor worrying that when he told you "dont do this" that the patient will do it anyway.
Tell them twice, show them once. Either that or charge extra and stack and sticker it yourself.
Other people can only turn their problems into your problems if you let them. Dont let them.
LL, you're right to a point and I agree with you. The problem is, most people will not take responsibility for their own mistakes. It's much easier to blame it on the sawyer if the lumber turns out bad.
It's just human nature I suppose, but it leads to bad reviews from the customer and nobody needs that. If you teach him how to do it right and he refuses to do it correctly, nothing you can do about that.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Stack_them_right.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1492360586)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22463/IMG_20170501_154931894_281024x57629.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1493730175)
My best customer to date knows what to do :) We've discussed it a lot but he has a nephew that worked at a sawmill so that helps and a brother who lived next to a pallet mill that shut down so they got the stickers for free :)
It is a tough challenge but I'm always instructing in the hopes that they are happy with the product when they use it and call me back for me :D
Quote from: 4x4American on April 12, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
It's hard to get people who have never stacked lumber to sticker stack properly. I have a friend who comes and helps me every so often on the weekends and he can never seem to keep a square stack. I'm sawing and he's stacking so I'm not paying attention to him, then I turn around take one look shut the mill down and tell him it looks like a boy scout stacked that pile of wood is that the best you got??? :D
Hey now!
Most of my boy scouts could do it right. At least if you took the 1st year scouts out of it. The 11 year olds are always a little squirrely. You just have to make sure you get no more than 1 or maybe 2 boys working on it.
If you think showing people how to sticker lumber is hard , try telling them how to cut down their hardwood trees without splitting the but log. Then try to them how to buck out good logs. I don't try anymore.
I always tell them, if the lumber is not stickered, it will rot and it will not be any good even for kindling. I tell them how it should be done. If they pay me I will sticker the lumber. After that it is up to them.