Down here in the south, most of our Pine structures are built from green Pine or air dried Pine.
I recently resawed some kiln dried cants / beams into lumber.
I was not impressed.....at all.
The structural integrity of the wood seemed to not be there.
I guess a far fetched explanation of what it was like sawing would be I felt I was sawing styro foam. :D
I'm guessing some people kiln dry Pine for furniture, paneling, flooring, ceilings, etc.
But my opinion would be NOT to kiln dry Pine for structural use.
Does Pine lose strength when kiln dried?
I'm guessing yes.
All stick built timber is kiln dried, a lot of it today is sent to be PT because it is about the easiest way to add value to wood.
I believe you have some plantation timber, look at the end grain, are you seeing 1/2" annual growth rings? If so you'll have almost all juvenile wood and little darker summer wood in the annual rings and the wood will be dramatically different than an old longleaf or shortleaf pine timer.
Quote from: nativewolf on April 24, 2017, 11:04:23 AM
All stick built timber is kiln dried....
Are you talking about stick built "structures" ? Not sure what you mean by stick built timber.
But not ALL stick built structures are built from kiln dried timber.
You guys have those 1/2" growth rings down there too? I thought all that stuff was exported to us Northerners. :D 4x4 mailbox posts that break off about as cleanly across the grain as a carrot. :D
I don't think all doug fir framing lumber is k.d. Some states don't allow spf lumber for structures. Also a lot of stud lumber is only dried to 20%. Ring count or partially decayed when sawn could be the weakness problem.
It was not the drying as such because all graded framing lumber has been kiln dried. Plantation Pine with those ½" growth rings has virtually no strength and it will also do "bad things" when being sawn. I avoid it.
Stick built means that it was built "one stick of lumber" at the time, as in conventional building.
I did not know pine had any structure. You never see any pine being used for framing lumber here.
Take a look at this chart: LINK (http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/3_Wood_Strength/3_Wood_Strength.htm) SYP has the strongest Compression Strength, Bending, & Stiffness.
You may not see it due to transportation costs.
Your SYP from down south is a whole lot better and stronger than our
pines from up north. I lived in Ga. for 6 years and I seen the difference.
As said, graded pine framing lumber has all been kiln dried. Different species have different characteristics and the pine I dry has no noticeable change in physical properties. I have to resaw a decent amount of my own KD pine and other than not having sap sprayed on me, I don't notice anything unusual.
Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity? Pulp maybe?
Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 24, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity? Pulp maybe?
Pretty much every house in NZ is built from plantation grown Radiata pine. Growth rings can be up to 1" wide. OK it's not the strongest wood in the world, but as long as the structure is engineered with the strength of the material in mind it's fine. Local houses stand up to Mag 7 earthquakes and storms pretty well.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 24, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Question: So what is the plantation pine grown for if it has low structural integrity? Pulp maybe?
It grows fast and saws easy. That makes it cheap. Other then that its got nothing going for it but hey... its got a lot going for it.
Pine is a four letter word.
The KD spruce studs we get up here are like balsa wood
They are not that good if I have to buy stud I try to get western hem/fir they are a lot better .
Roof trusses in the north east have a lot of SYP in them because it's stronger than spruce
Was delivering to a customer the other day and we were both admiring a piece of pine framing the guy had dressed, probably some of that NZ stuff.
Wood looked okay for what it was but it had 32 fingerjoints in 4.5. (15')
"Structural Pine" is an oxymoron.
Quote from: Magicman on April 24, 2017, 02:02:09 PM
Take a look at this chart: LINK (http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/3_Wood_Strength/3_Wood_Strength.htm) SYP has the strongest Compression Strength, Bending, & Stiffness.
You may not see it due to transportation costs.
I've also heard that loblolly pine (another yellow pine) can be used for structural purposes something like a month after cutting it. I have a pile of it, and I know it dries real straight and stable. I don't think I've ever seen a piece move in drying. I don't think it's as strong as longleaf SYP, but it's pretty darn strong...
http://www.wood-database.com/loblolly-pine/
I've got some old SYP or loblolly in my 125-year-old house and it's harder than cast iron. You couldn't drive a nail into it if your life depended on it. I'd like to use it more than I do, but you also can't get paint to stick to it for more than a year or two...
For grading purposes Southern Yellow Pine includes: longleaf pine, shortleaf pine, slash pine, or loblolly pine, and are all considered equal even though there could be a slight difference in the various strengths. Consider also that there are differences in these strength characteristics caused by different growing conditions within the same species groups.
Here in Pa. we have
White pine
Scotch pine
Australian pine
Jack pine
Red pine
Virginia pine
That's all I know...
David,.... are you SURE it WASN'T styrofoam? :D
Structural SYP is only kiln dried to 19%.
What I was sawing IMO was over cooked. fire_smiley
The kiln does not weaken or permanently alter the mechanical properties of the lumber. Dry lumber is about twice as "strong" as green. Dimensional lumber... 2-4" thick framing lumber can be green or dried but is usually kiln dried to 19%. There are no prohibitions against using green lumber for framing in any building code, nor is there one against using any species or group of species as long as they are used within their engineering limits. Dougfir is often sold green in the west, due to freight costs it has been quite a few years since I've seen any here in the east. The stamp reads SGRN- surfaced green rather than KD19, kiln dried to 19%.
Pieces with fewer than 4 rings/inch are normally graded out as unusually light. #2 SYP was derated a few years ago after being flagged during an in grade assessment cycle. I simply asked my local lumberyard to keep #1 in stock. Dougfir and SYP are the higher strength species of commercially available lumber. These tests are ongoing, you can keep up with that stuff through the American Lumber Standards Committee, I keep an eye on that through their mailings of minutes. You can see the current design values for many species on the awc.org span calc or in their supplement to the NDS "Design Values for wood construction" a free download.
From the carpenters point of view, there is a vast difference between SPF and SYP. Every factory truss that I have ever seen was built using SYP. Regards, Clark
Styrofoam dust is the worst. It is sorta impossible to sweep it all up and it never rots away. Burns fast though.
PC
Getcha some chickens. Stupid things love styrofoam and peck the hell out of it. It disappears. I swear to you. Their guts must grind that stuff up and after they're "done" with it there's no trace of it. I'm sure on a molecular level it's still there somehow but you sure can't see it any more! :D Chickens....... ::)
I recently sawed what the farmer called Virginia red pine and it was excellent. Straight logs with little taper. Stayed pretty bow free coming off the saw and has dried fast and well. We have many 16" logs coming off of a clear cut and I'll try to get as many as I can.
Quote from: KirkD on April 24, 2017, 01:48:44 PM
I did not know pine had any structure. You never see any pine being used for framing lumber here.
around here ALL framing lumber bigger than 2x6 is pine :) 2x4 and 2x6 are spf and 2x8 and up are syp :)
The consumer wants a knock down finish on the inside and brick on the outside. They don't care whats between those surfaces. They have neither the skill or inclination to verify quality construction relying on code enforcement. If it falls down the insurance company will bail them out.
The builder's concern is cost and building to code. He has already educated the buyer that knock down drywall finish is the in style, but in realty this camouflages his wavy syp walls.
I suppose the above method is ok, I just don't buy into it.
Trusses use machine graded syp as the human is not qualified to grade this lumber I guess. ???
I have a little construction job to do so dropped by a "real" lumberyard this morning. Picked up DF studs. A few were pretty wany but all were free of pith and most had 15 rings to the inch. Nice and straight and generally stay that way. A few months ago I bought some 2 X 12 DF stock for headers. When I got it home most was tight vertical grain. I couldn't stand using it for construction so added it to my stash for cabinet work. Had to go back and ask for crappy 2 X 12's. :D We don't have a DF within a 1,000 miles of here but DF is still cheaper than local plantation grown SYP.
I have to agree with MM on plantation pine. I've never seen plantation pine I'd use even if it was free. I'm not sure if it would grade for anything but studs. It may be the right species but it ain't SYP.
Percentage of latewood has much more to do with mechanical properties than rings per inch when you get beyond 4-6 rings per inch. Look for a higher proportion of the dark heavy wood. If all else is equal the heavy stick is the stronger one.
In engineered products you'll often see an MSR stamp (machine stress rated) that is followed by an Fb number (bending strength) and an E number (stiffness). There is still a human grader at the tail end visually double checking that something like a large section of compression wood didn't fool the machine. If you look at the same stick side by side with a visually graded piece the MSR stick will have higher design values, we know more about that piece of lumber than one that is only visually graded.
For design Virginia pine falls into the group of minor southern pines listed under the MSP stamp and design values.
The latest minutes were in my inbox when I got home, think they're attached, if you want to see what they do at that quasi governmental level
Have a look at these pages for some of the construction uses for plantation pine.
Residential.
http://www.nzwood.co.nz/timber-design-awards/nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/residential-architectural-excellence-nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/point-wells-gables/ (http://www.nzwood.co.nz/timber-design-awards/nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/residential-architectural-excellence-nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/point-wells-gables/)
Engineering
http://www.nzwood.co.nz/timber-design-awards/nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/engineering-innovation-nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/government-samoa-fale/ (http://www.nzwood.co.nz/timber-design-awards/nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/engineering-innovation-nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/government-samoa-fale/)
Commercial
http://www.nzwood.co.nz/timber-design-awards/nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/commercial-architectural-excellence-nzwood-resene-timber-design-awards-2017/cathedral-grammar-junior-school/
Now personally I don't like pine to work with, it's soft, it's sticky and it's everywhere. But like most wooden construction, you build with what you have available, and engineer the structure to suit the material.
Good stuff Ian. It'll take me a while but I'll read it all. :)
Lumber from virginia pine is not considered suitable for framing and general construction in the same class as the four major southern yellow pines, shortleaf, loblolly, slash, and longleaf pine.
In the Southeast and Gulf States, the majority of SYP sawn and sold as dimesnion stock, 2x4's, 6's, 8's, and 10's are sawn from purpose grown plantation pine. Probably 80%. There is a lot more of it out there than people realize. It is now what is on the market and available.
In my area Loblolly is beyond plentiful. It what is mostly used for construction material.
I sell all my Virginia Pine and White Pine for customers who like T&G flooring.