He is now deceased, killed while riding a 4 wheeler in a drunken stupor. His legacy lives on.
Billy Joe was from Northern Wisconsin. His thievery took part in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
He was particularly fond of the red oak forests in Western Wisconsin. Without a doubt, he could have been a multimillionaire.....if he would have gone legit. He couldn't help himself from stealing.
A man with a golden gift of gab. He screwed 100's of landowners.
He once told a landowner that his stand of giant white pine (which he bought for pulp prices) needed to be harvested "before the sap ran"......whatever that means. So good was his gift of gab that the landowner told him to start logging immediately.
His typical ploy was this. A landowner of veneer grade red oak was given a token payment ($500 - $2000) upon signing a logging contract. The stipulation was that all monies would be paid when ALL the logs were trucked.
Billie Joe intentional left a dozen or so cull logs on the premises. The landowner would make repeated calls, wanting payment. Billie Joe reminded the landowners that payment would be forthcoming when ALL the logs were trucked .....and stated his truckers were about to get fired for not hauling ALL the logs. The stonewalling continued.
The landowners property was completely devastated and looked like a tornado went through. Generally, only the veneer, sawlogs and bolts were removed from the trees.....leaving tops 8" in diameter in a strewn mess......looking like a war zone.
He immediately cashed checks from veneer mills & sawmills.....leaving only pocket change in his checking account. Always fearful of having his monies seized, he operated almost exclusively on cash.
Eventually, the landowner would bring lawsuit against Billie Joe. It did absolutely no good. Nothing was in his name, but his new pickup truck, about the only thing he ever made payments on. The landowner eventually found out you can't get blood from a turnip and joined the ranks of 100's others that had been screwed by Billie Joe.
Equipment dealers also felt the sting of Billie Joe. He would pay the least amount of $$ possible to get a skidder out the door. Salespeople overlooked his dismal credit when they could smell a commission.
Billie Joe never made a payment on the skidder, constantly moving it around the state....keeping it hidden from the repo man.
Billie Joe sometimes had to actually pay for the high grade wood. He could read people like a book. Of course, the final payment always was a rubber check. Billie Joe couldn't sleep at night unless he screwed the landowner somehow.
There are other Billie Joe's out there. Of course, there always will be. None will come close to his legacy of thievery & deception.
If Wisconsin ever had a "Bad Loggers" list, there would be no question as to who would top the list......Billie Joe would be there.
Hoop, I gotta ask the source of this. Is this from your own writings?
It would Be interesting to know what might have prompted you to post it. We try to always keep in mind here that crooked loggers are not the norm, but the exception to the rule. It's just that the crooked one over shadows the 99 that are conscientious about their work.
Since moving to GA, I picked up a phrase they use around here "That man needed killing" I am surprised he did himself in and not someone else.
hoop, im with jeff, how did you hear about ol billy?
are you a landowner or an equipment dealer? ;D
this guy sounds pretty slick, how long ago was this?
there was a 'hiding' skidder on my friends land, course we didnt know it was hiding. luckily this guy was too lazy to get the wood cut.
Its not just the occasional logger, a log buyer contacted my B I L about cutting a 40 he has, this 40 had not been cut for at least three generations and was heavily wooded, against my advice he signed a contract paying him $8,000 to cut anything that would make two sticks, duration of contract 2 years.
they came in after the contract expired ( not a big deal ) and clear cut the 40 hualed out the money trees and there is still about 15 + - dlbs still sitting there after a year.
The log buyer is his cousin. >:( :-X
Remember pasbuild this is a worldwide forum, or at least a bunch of us from all over the USA and unfamiliar with terms outside our own region.
What is a BIL, a 40, a dlb?
I do believe its a brudder-in-law. ;D
BIL = brother in law
40 = 40 acres
dlbs = truck and trailer load
sorry about all of the abbreviations but it takes a long time to type this stuff up with one finger.
Every thing posted here would not have happened if there had been a third party honest forester as the middle man, earning his percentage, but getting the landowner paid and the contract fulfilled.
The key word in your statement is honest, B-I-L cousin is a collage grad forester and knew exactly what he was doing >:(
must have needed a little help with his payments on his new two story lake house >:(
This post was a warning to landowners that are about to have there land logged without FULLY checking out the logging contractor's background, financial data, criminal/civil court records and credit report.
Crooks like Billy Joe thrived.....because people didn't follow through before signing a contract.
And while some are of the opinion that 99% of the loggers are honest, I find the figure laughable, and am of the opinion that at most, maybe 1/2 of all logging contractors are honest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Billy Joe operated for years with impunity, partly because of the greed of other loggers, that would occasionally farm out a harvesting crew, haul & sell Billie Joe's wood under their contract, and quite often buy his contract (knowing full well the landowner was going to get screwed).
Read what Game Wardens have to say about Billy Joe in this article www.gamewarden.org/mag_billyjoe.htm which is not logging related, but does attest to his character.
Loggers need to admit that thieves do exist within their ranks.....and insist that landowners exercise extreme caution when signing contracts.
I don't think you will find an arguement on this board that Thieves exist and some of them are loggers. Every occupation has thieves. What makes it easy for landowners to get taken advantage of is the fact that even honest loggers and log buyers are operating under a different agenda. That is why we try to impress on everyone to use a "real" Forester to manage their timber and their sale. Some things are better taught in school and Foresters get a earful of how to raise trees, manage forests, identify diseases, write contracts and step in for the landowner in tresspassing disputes.
It's unfortunate, but, the majority of cases where a landowner was "taken", a forester wasn't present.
Now, you have to take into consideration that there might be crooked Foresters too. But, that might be an easier thing to check than the logger.
It's a shame that the world has have "Billy Joes" in it.
QuoteLoggers need to admit that thieves do exist within their ranks.....and insist that landowners exercise extreme caution when signing contracts.
They certainly do admit it and have tried to set up ways to deal with those that soil the profession.
50% what figures would you base that on? 50% of the ones you know or have dealt with? Certainly I cannot dispute that, but 50% of the industry is just a personal slam with absolutely nothing to back it up other then ones own issues.
Timber theives, timber pimps are NOT loggers. I certainly don't lump them in.
3 of 4 commercial loggers I've delt with were crooks :(. Hopefully this isn't the norm. 2 instances were timber theft and the other had to do with environmental issues and cutting inside bufer zones (he has been know to steal timber though). one thing i noticed though is that its usually not the guy running the saw or driving the skidder who's guilty, its the foreman or the employer whos calling the shots. I'm not saying the loggers don't know that theyre doing something wrong, but it usually isn't their idea.
When I read the title of this thread I figured there talken about me again :o Man was I disappointed when it wasn't me :o ::) :-X
Seconding Scott, we have a high incidence of crooked loggers! Our next door neighbour had 100 acres logged, the foreman was overheard in a local pub laughing about how little these people knew about wood prices and how he was screwing them over so badly >:( He wasn't long removing his skidder.
Unfortunately he has damaged most of the residual trees as he was doing a diameter limit cutting, bee-lined to every large tree driving over the 4" and under stuff without cutting making a huge mess. He yarded every thing into a hayfield there and left a mess.
The second logger is one who even had an small woodlot owner profile done on him in the low impact logging website (link in Sprucebunny's low impact thread) for how good he was, well, a friend of mine while working for him was instructed to drive through a beaver pond to cut some trees on the other side, well it was too deep so he told them to cut a mat and drive accross the beaver dam to get accross. They go caught by the DNR guy and fined for driving in a waterway. His response was to gate off his land so DNR couldn't inspect his operation without permission.
In Michigan if you find any sort of improprieties in logging practices there is a 1 800 number to call to start the ball rolling on an investigation of such. You can also contact www.timbermen.org and check out references and history of logging contractors. They WILL help.
The problem lies mostly in the fact that when one has someone take them on a timber harvest, everybody hears about it. When someone has a great experience, they don't come on here or the papers or the news and praise the logger or contractor. If you guys are saying that half of the timber harvests out there are crooked, then you also have to be saying that half of all the landowners are uneducated, gullible, or just stupid.
I don't buy it. I know a lot of loggers that really care about the job they do and I know some true rats. The rats don't work much but you sure here about them all the time. The good guys work everyday all their lives and barely get a mention.
Its a bit different in Illinois where I live.
An HONEST logger gets a HUGE reputation and everybody hears about him(as being rare and useful).....almost like a legend..soon he cant be hired easily anymore due to demand for him
Reputation and publicity may be two different things. When is the last time someone joined this forum just to post about "My succesful timber harvest" Or, " I want to tell you about my friend the logger who does such good work" It dont happen that way. How many times do we get threads like this one (Note: Nothing wrong with it, it's a good story), or from desperate landowners joining, only to seek help for themselves or perhaps a friend or elderly parent? Often. Its just the way it is. SCREAM OUCH! or silently smile in content.
This is more in response to Jeffs thoughts.........which made me think.. A dangerous thing!
I think.........
a certain portion of the "complaints" recieved does have to do with the nature of the internet.....people use it as a BLUE GENIE ....when they need help they push the keys find a relavent site and ask away.....When a job is well done people feel thier expectations were met...(a minimum expectation) and go on with thier life....Not really excited enough about it enough to tell the world..........but if someone gets hurt the net is the poor mans lawyer, friend, confidant, library, and human contact for support and vent...
Like when ya go to the auto shop and they fix your brakes you dont tell everyone about it .BUT if they fail to fix them and you have a bad wreck then you start talkin.........good service seems to be our expectation as normal ??...
Buzz, EXACTLY!
I have worked in a sawmill and around loggers, and timber sales and timber and forestland owners all my working life. I have had a view in several dimensions for over 25 years. I've seen the rotten first hand. I also see the good. Every day, day after day. I can understand how someone gets jaded to the industry that only gets a view on occasion and its usually that type of view such as you posted about. The good goes unseen or unnoticed and certainly unheralded so, the good must be nonexistent or rare. In those who have a limited or different view I understand. From my view i am proad of the job that most of the folks I work with do.
Now, there is not to say that there are not regions where the bad may out weigh the good. I am certain there are. If you have the guys on each side of you robbed, yer thinking there has gotta be a thief near by, maybe a bunch of em, trust nobody!
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on this one.............
My family purchased 100 acres in 1996, 35 is tillable & 65 is wooded. The woods was logged 3 years prior to our purchase. I assume the previous owner was compensated fairly for the timber. He was a good businessman & had dealt with loggers before. I also believe a forrester was involved. I should also add the owner was not physcially able to inspect or watch the harvest & it really showed.
The worst part (that I am still stuck with) is the mess the PIGS made of the property. They logged it before the ground was frozen & didn't care. One of their skidders was equipped with monster truck tires, all the better to make HUGE ruts & holes with. When the holes got to deep they would skid a cull into it & keep going. Busted cable?, just leave it lay by the edge of the field, so someone can suck it up into their brush hog. Old air filters & empty oil buckets?, throw 'em in the weeds, not our farm. Saw chain shot?, throw it on the ground so it'll cut someone elses tire. Not to mention all the damaged trees from turning to sharp with the logs.
It is extremely easy to see why loggers get a bad name. Even if it has nothing to do with the finiacal aspect of the job. I just hope the guy that did the job stops sometime to see about cutting it again. Then I will drag him out there & drown his a$$ in one of the water filled holes he left.
special ed, do you see this in every woods you walk in? Or are you telling us about the one you know of. Odds are, the property was raped of its timber resource due to the inpending sale. Sold to the highest bidder without regard to who it was or how they might leave the land. Get the bucks before the land was sold.
Shame on that previous landowner for allowing it and shame on the guy that took the timber and left the land in that condition.
The words "beleive" and "assume" tell me a lot. Again an imperfect view.
Unfortunately, Jeff, the story is all too common, and the results all too visible.
The words "believe" and "assume" are the ones the lawyers use to defend these jerks that rob the land owner and rape the forest.
All depends on whose looking through whose rose colored glasses.
I'm not saying its not uncommon. Its all to common. It happens everyday, as do all the ones you will never have a problem with or hear of becaue they are done properly, the ones that I am trying to speak up for.
Yes there are some very concientious loggers. I had one on my property. After cutting over 1000 cords of aspen, I found 1 pop can and one piece of steel in my field. The piece of steel was a cut off doen by the welder he hired and most likely got buried in the snow as they were repairing a skidder.
As the forester was laying out the sale, he gave me a list of loggers that he had worked with and asked me if I wanted to add or remove any before the cruise was let out for bids. I removed one, a neighbor. I didn't want to cause bad feelings in the neighborhood if I had to get nasty to get things done as I wished. The forester said that the one I removed was super 9 of 10 jobs, but the 10th he would have to really watch to see that the job was done right.
QuoteAfter cutting over 1000 cords of aspen
what do you do with a cord of aspen? :-/
Well, at our mill, we cut 500 feet or so of lumber out of it as we create some chips that will become OSB and provide the farmers with the most sought after sawdust we make for use in bedding thier stock.
i cut lumber out of it also, but the bedding, only for the calves, needs to be dry. people here cut it up for OSB, but its not measured by the cord.
A couple of months ago, I ran a poll about licensing loggers. Less than the majority thought we should. So, that gives us pretty much a system of self regulation.
When I scaled logs, I could always tell which loggers weren't trustworthy. I had one guy that would drag his logs through the mud to hide defect. I also know of another logger who would go out and mark additional trees on jobs. I know of a large mill that underscales woodlots when they buy them. They pay a good price on a bogus scale.
But, what you are hearing is that a landowner got screwed out of his timber. A lot depends on how its interpreted by the landowner, before they yell "foul".
I had one landowner who thought that a logging job was botched when they saw broken branches on their trees. It was explained that it was normal damage. They still weren't pleased.
Others would hear the price of veneer logs or see what lumber is fetching at the local chain store and figured that they got taken when they didn't get anywhere near that price. You'll never get a guy to understand why he got 50 cents a foot while Lowe's is getting $5/bf.
What bothers me more is the jobs that look good, but have bad management. A neighbor loved their logging job, which took all the high grade and left the junk. Stocking was high enough to ensure good aesthetics. Aesthetics will sell any type of management job.
But, as long as we self regulate, there is no recourse. Sometimes good loggers get caught doing dumb things to save time. Ruts aren't a good thing, but they should be repaired after the logging job, and your contract should say so. Same goes for repair debris.
The Northeastern Logging Association regularly recognizes loggers that do an outstanding job. They also recognize landowners, foresters and others that make a good contribution to the industry.
Maybe we should have a hall of fame here on the board for people who had good logging jobs.
Special Ed, the job you described is the norm around here. Saw chains, skidder chains, skidder cable, skidder and truck tires, oil filters, oil buckets (sometimes full of used oil), track rollers, engine parts, batteries, hydraulic hoses and food related garbage are all comonly found on job sites around here. Its really sad to see. Also they've left a old bulldozer and a burned harvester in the woods not to mention a worn out harvesting head and an old feul tank (large metal one on truck axle). As for logging when the ground is frozen....forget about it. these guys just don't care what kind of a mess they make its all about the $$$$ for them. Please don't get me wrong, there are good loggers out there who do care but they aren't working around here very often.
I know most logers around here one will do more than a contract calls for then some he is always behind .Neighbor got in a hurry sold to another guy and two years later still a mess.It is no big trouble to go to past sights and talk to people. He left 87 hickrey 15 oak's and a few other trees I called the people an wanted the rest for tyes wouldn't even talk to me . Plus there is a big log pile this is right across from my mill ??? They are big farmers and must of wanted to sell to a bigger outfit and was in a hurry. You can find good and bad anywhere it seams to often the bad sticks out more than the good . Some here want to sell that 35 grand walnut tree then fuss about the sawdust too >:(
I either know or know of many of the loggers in my area and for the most part they will do the job that is expected of them, on small private cuts they take care with the hope of going back at a later date and cutting it again, but on the large corporate cuttings they get them down and out as fast as possible, thats whats expected.
I'm sorry, but for the ones who are saying that bad logging results are expected, bad loggers and foresters are the majority, loggers will always rape the woods, I say bull****.
I've worked with these situations practically every day, certainly every week, for 30 years as a Service Forester for the State of Virginia. As Tom said, there are thieves everywhere, some of them are loggers. BUT there have always been numerous ways you can protect yourself from the bad ones and get a good one, but most people ignore them until they have problems. Then they come to "The Government" to get the problems straightened out, and/or badmouth loggers in general to everybody within earshot.
Every bad personal experience and 2nd and 3rd hand story in this thread could have been handled by a good sale contract that says the trash will be picked up, the ruts will be smoothed out, the skid trails and haul roads will be seeded, stream crossings will be returned to original streambanks, no logging when the ground is so soft as to cause deep rutting, mud will be scrapped off the road at the logging entrance, gates will be kept closed, the logger will complete the job by such-and-such date, will not sell to a second logger without written permission of the landowner, unduly damaged trees will be compensated for by paying the landowner twice the sale price for them, etc., etc., etc. These are standard timber sale contract provisions. You can put any limitation/request/concern you want to in a timber sale contract for your own situation.
If you or your parents/brother/friend/uncle/neighbor/former owner didn't have such a contract, you are as much at fault as the bad logger you let in your woods. A good consulting forester selling the timber for a private landowner will include any provision you want and some you didn't think of in the sale contract and oversee the job from beginning to end to see that all contract provisions are followed. That's part of his commission the landowner pays him for.
Industry foresters should do the same on their industry lands. If they don't, it's the fault of their employer for letting them get away with letting a bad logger operate on company lands.
Yes, there are good foresters and bad foresters. Both kinds even work for my Agency. But it doesn't take a rocket scentist to find a good one. The average private landowner in the USA sells timber once in his entire lifetime. Spend a few weeks, a few months, if it takes, to find a good, competent forester to sell it for you. That doesn't mean there won't be problems. But with a good forester, the problems should be fewer, and they should be easily solvable.
If a bad logger does a bad job, that means the landowner didn't do the things he could have done to protect himself and his land.
Phorester I think you miss understood my intent, I was trying to say that the loggers in my area do a GOOD job and there expected to. The cutting that iv seen on private land have been done with great care however the corporate land that is being cut is getting cut REAL heavy and then being put up for sale. The corporation is the one getting them down and out as fast as possible.
On the good and bad loggers issue I have only known of two loggers that were taking money logs off of the job and they were individual guys cutting for landowners and yes there was no forester involved on the jobs.
most log buyers want to know were the logs came from and will not buy questionable logs.
The woods product industry is an honorable profession full of honorable men and women and as we all know your going to find a couple of rotten eggs in every hen house.
Swampy would likely have a story or two to add to Scott and I's in this area. Much of it has nothing to do with the logger and everything to do with people's attitudes here. Many people here still believe its ok to dump junk in the woods and it's ok to drain used oil into a low spot in the ground. I'm not talking loggers specifically but everyone, including farmers.
There are good loggers here too, but they don't always make as much money so aren't as sucessful.
Our farming partners are getting some work done now, the fellow is courteous, clean, and leaves the woods looking nice but is high grading it. Our neighbours don't know what high-grading is, he just said to them everything big is gonna blow down in the next five years and they had visions of $$ rotting in the woods. He showed them some fir butt's the ants had gotten into and she thinks he's a saint. He doesn't show all the spruce that is in beautiful shape that could restock good genetics in the area then be harvested in 20 years.
A good logger I know of uses a single grip harvester on a tracked chassis, He does a lot of I think it is called commercial thining? He makes his trails grabbing what has been called/marked in the cutting and limbing it in front of the machine so he drives on a mat always. The forwarder or skidder then follows on the mat and hauls to the road. The owners aren't always keen as it leaves a mat of brush were they may have wanted a 4 wheeler trail and some branches break when hauling stuff out with the head doing thinning.
He can do a good job when thinning for pulp wood, pick off the nasty stuff. It is a function of his equipment too I suppose.
There is another good logger locally who operates with a cable skidder. He is careful in wet areas when they aren't frozen, always cleans up after himself, from garbage to bumper trees. His sites don't look as pretty slash wise but it is spread out in the woods to decompose.
I won't be too critical as I do a little weekend logging on my own property but I don't follow the best practices, using a tractor I can't leave slash on the skid roads or I have to buy hoses too much. Best thing I do is work in the winter on top of snow.
All the land around my house is owned by a small corporation. All the garbage i mentioned before can be found on thier land around here (aprx 2000-3000 acres) I'm not going to blame the loggers completely on this one. I'd have to say its the land owners fault. All he wants is the money, he REALLY doesn't care whats left behind when his guys are done. he's the type of guy who wouldn't give up an extra dollar to look after the environment. If it costs him money he's not going to do it, it's just that simple. I don't think he pays his loggers very well and he pays them on production so they really can't go back and fix things up or take time to be carefull and do things right. I'm not saying that these loggers care, I'm just saying that things might be better if the landowner thought a little different. We've called the envirnment department on this company before for everything from illegal stream crossing with the skidders, to garbage to poorly built roads, to illegal blasting to putting a shut off valve on the drain stream on a lake. We've rarely got anyone to come out and look at whats going on and when they do take action this guy always gets off the hook in the end. This guy is one of those guys who gives logging a bad name. >:(
Good timber management includes managing the harvest which includes 'the loggers" doing the harvest. Landowners need to know this and not turn their timber directly over to a logger. Not all loggers are foresters nor do they have the landowner's interest and objectives in mind.
There are "bad apples" in every profession, but it is best to hire a certified forester that you have faith in to manage your timber. Landowner's need to blame themselves if they let a "bad logger" loose in their timber stand without seeking professional assistance.
When surgery is needed we see a Doctor who is a specialist in the subject at hand. ;)
there are many regions of the country where foresters are NON existent....I am not sure it is fair to say those people....especially the weak and elderly, are responsible for the ethical breach of a contractor. :)
Thanks for the clarification, Pasbuild.
Buzz-sawyer, there ARE areas where foresters don't work. But even in these areas where no consulting foresters operate, or where they do not actually handle a timber sale for landowners (some consultants in one part of my State only mark and cruise timber, then give this info to the landowner, they don't handle sales), a landowner can still get information on how to properly conduct a timber sale. Ones connected to the Internet have the widest range of info available, of course, but for people in the USA who still don't have a computer, a telephone call to their State Forestry Agency or County Extension Agent will get the ball rolling on how to carry out a timber sale.
And the elderly are indeed at a disadvantage. They are more trusting of people. They grew up in an era when you simply trusted people to do a good job and look out for the interests of their customers. Even back then we know it didn't always occur, since I still hear horror stories stories of what happened on logging jobs 50 years ago.
It's good to start seeing some more positive messages about loggers. ;D
Quote
The words "beleive" and "assume" tell me a lot. Again an imperfect view.
Jeff, in this instance thats all I can say. There is nobody left alive to ask. All trees to cut were marked, by whom I don't know. It was not done by the owner.
I have been into logged areas that were done in a very professional manner. No trash left & no major land damage. The loggers even cut up all softwood tops (per landowner request) so they would lay on the ground to rot quicker. All hardwood tops were cut for firewood.
I pass a small woodlot on my way home every day that was recently logged, again an excellent job. Someone is cutting up the tops & even taking time to pile up all the brush. So I know not all loggers are slobs/crooks.
We had a logger cut a 50 acre parcel of family land a few winters back. The work he did was nothing special but he was honest and friendly and did make an effort to do a decent job. Before this time we didn't know him. Now he's a friend of the familly. We don't see him too often as he lives a fair distance away but we always send a card at Christmas.
I'de like the say that during the 80's and 90's there was alot of 'free for all logging' in my area as everyone had 'budworm' on the brain and alot of loggers where using this as an arguement for clearcutting woodlots. Even the experts where preaching that we needed to harvest the spruce and fir or loose it. So that stuck in most people's heads. They even got away with convincing landowners their hardwood needed cutting because of a few scattered fir in their hardwood stands. Well, we didn't clearcut all our softwood ground, mainly because there is alot of it and there are alot of folks that don't depend on it for livelyhood any longer. So, it was ties up in reserves of sorts. And after all that hype the woods didn't disappear, the budworm epidemic subsided and I'm still cruising large fir and spruce trees that budworm never touched. Back in those days our hardwood was only valued as pulpwood. There wasn't much of a sawlog market and veneer wasn't even considered. Then in the late 90's sawlog and veneer markets started opening up, but it still took some convincing to get the owner operators or loggers to buck for grade. It was a long struggle, and what helped the sawlog and veneer markets in my area was the log buyers who where sent to woodlots and marketing boards staff who went to the woods to show folks the value of that log in sawlog form versus pulpwood. The marketing boards would have buyers put on bucking and grading courses and still do. The volume of value added products has risen quite sharply in the last 5 years. You can see this every week as the log yards for the marketing board have been stuffed with logs and veneer requiring a guy full time to sort, buck and mark the wood for private producers. I'm seeing a lot of loggers whose attitudes have taken a 180 degree turn and are operating under the 'best management practices' slogan. It is now not the norm to find oil jugs, filters, engine parts, skidder cable and so on strewn throughout the woods. For those that still do they are a dying breed. To work on crown lands for forest companies they are policed sharply by woods foremen who check there harvest layout (real sticky on trail placement), check their machinery for leakages, check for safety and various other aspects. That dumped oil on the ground is becoming less common because loggers are required to dig that soil up and take itto an incinerator.
Now as far as the Dept of Environment. They do not want to get involved with conflict. They do not want anything to interfere with their pension and they have too few inspectors spread around the province to enforce the laws as required. The laws they have in place are to act as a deterant, but won't be enforced for small enfractions. Most times the fine or fixup costs less than a man's wages to remedy the problem. They are more intend on haggling the larger infractions and haven't the time to spend on all the little ones. if the fines were increased enough to increase address the staffing problem then the infractions would become less common. But, the government doesn't operate 'intelligently'. They are very inefficient and lack inter-departmental communications. Also, the politicians are powerless against the established bureacrats, who actually run things. Go to your local MLA they say, but still nothing gets done. They just hope that after awhile you'll stop pesturing as long as they keep ignoring you.
Getting back to the good and bad loggers. I too have seen both of course. But, when I worked at the marketing board, the contract we had with the owner gave us the authority to controll the harvesting and the loggers activities. We where the manager, and called all the shots. We hired the logger who we knew we could deal with and get the job done right. I can remember quite a few jobs I looked after that were very satisfying. When you can go back to a site 2 or 3 years later and hardly find evidence we'de been there, and at the same time make the owners experience a good one, and practically double his money, and leave an excellent job and woodlot behind, then I feel we've accomplished good management. I can remember one site where we doubled the owner's investment and the owner was left with a woodlot with great potential and with more than double the wood that was harvested. We only had 6 acres of clear cut because of old growth fir and poplar (short lived), plus road right-of-way. Most of that poplar we got veneer price and the fir weighed out real good for the treelength market even though 90 % had butt rot. I had photos of all the wood we cut when it was stacked. All trails and harvest trees were marked and the skidder operators were a pleasure to work with. I can only remember one job site the loggers where a problem and these where horse loggers working in difficult terrain, which was ment for skidder, but that was later resolved. Although the previous manager put the roads in the wrong place, which ment hauling tractor trailor loads up some pretty steep hills. Very poor planning there and it was obvious the manager let the loggers put roads where ever. In fact the truckers told me the manager was rarely there and was being paid $6/cord to watch things. I think he was too busy shearing Christmas trees at his own farm. ::)
Well I think that's enough from my perspective. ;D
Well, I got to tour a neighbours recently created clearcut. The logger was honest but the owners didn't consult a forester.
They did a diameter limit cut on 30 acres or so. The limit was 10" supposedly but I saw lots of small stumps. Whatever.
The thing that bothered me was all the bumper trees and damaged trees were left, and there are a lot of them!
I'd guess they left 3-5% trees standing (all small cedar and hardwood. unmarketable) and damaged half them despite there being all kinds of room to work around. Not terribly impressed.
They also never bothered to leave a bladed path for the owners farm tractor to travel through to clean all the stuff they cut and left. I kinda wish I had bought the skidding winch and worked with the owner to log it over the winter.
Most land owners never will consult a forester in New Brunswick. 99% percent of the time its absantee owners that don't live in New Brunswick who consult a forester or marketing board to manage their land. The owner goes his own way and the logger does what he wants. Then the owner is left with a mess and nothing what the 'verbal' agreement entailed. Shame. Also, there is a perception that loggers are always foresters. I know with certainty the owner will get a better deal with a forester involved as a 3rd party, but try and convince the owner of that. It's like hammering a rock pile.
It's hard to understand why some landowners don't seek out and use some professional advice for their land and resource management. It sounds like some timber stand improvement will be needed "after" the logging job.
I,m gonna stick my nos in here, for what it's worth. Do ya think sometimes the land owner just sees the money coming out of his pocket and not the benefits? A lot of the landowners either think the logger is a forester or really don't know the difference. A lot of the people are too trusting, as you can tell I'm doing a lot of summing up here because I think the major problems have been pointed out. We don't have the option here of a forester, it's every man for himself. I know personally of loggers around here that have stolen timber, one went to jail once- the thief. One guy I know personally told me once he just loved to hear the sound those little ten inch poplars made when they hit ground as he ran them over with the skidder- the slob.( same guy that wanted to log my place when I bought it, had not been cut since the fifties) I reminded him of his comments years before and told him never to set foot in my woods. Many, many more that I have worked with and have known for years that I can tell what I want done, if they cannot economically do it, they say so. When you agree on a deal, you don't have to even go in the woods to check on them. I have known a few times in the past that the logger has talked the owner into not cutting as small as they first wanted, because they really had no idea what they really wanted, didn't understand future management- the good guy. This is the guy you have to wait on if you want timber cut because he is always booked up. That's enough rambling from me, I'm no expert, just know what I have seen in the past. Sad thing we are not easily going to change people, there will always be slobs and thieves and they are going to give all of us a bad name mainly because of an uninformed public. I'll shut up now.
I don't think it's the lack of awareness of the owner, theirs been too much preaching over the last 25 years. If it were the case than there are alot of folks walking through life with blinders on. I think I've mentioned it before on the forum too, that alot of owners see the forester as the middle man and think they can do better financially if they deal with the logger only. It's always too late when the woodlot has been cut to do anything but complain. What I see are alot of 'good' clearcuts most times and that seems to be the way the owners sell the timber. Alot of folks that complain are the drive by sight see'ers and neighbors. Just driving up into my area all you see for mature woods is poplar-fir stands. The mature hardwood, cedar and spruce have been raped, mostly during that 80-90's era. And mostly for financial recovery on family farms.
Most people don't listen to preaching unless they think it pertains to them, human nature being what it is the majority of people seem to think, "It can't happen to me" or " I"m smarter than that", just human nature. There is where the blinders come in. I agree that most people see the forester as an unecessary middleman that is just taking money out of their pocket and in some cases might wind up with more money in their pocket immediately because they will sell something that a forester would convince them to keep for later on down the road. In the long run ending up with less money. I have seen clearcuts in the south that were reseeded and treated like a crop, this I can understand. The clearcuts we have around here are all corporate owners, no one else can get the permits to sell pulp, just not much market. I just can't understand the clear cutting around here, there is no reseeding. Look at Eastern Kentucky on a topo map. Except for immediate economic gain I do not understanding clear cutting in this terrian, there may be some justification that I just don't see. I'm not condeming clear cutting in general, I just wish someone would educate me on doing it in this terrain with no reseeding. If someone could explain it to me I would really appreciate hearing it.
In my area, the clearcuts are usually small enough to reseed naturally after a natural progression of pioneer species.
In areas with more crown land and bigger clearcuts they tend to replant.
There are other options to replanting such as leaving mature stands or patches in areas where they won't just all blow over. Those finger like progressive cuts are used too sometimes. Swampy or other foresters would know more on this.
I compare timber harvesting, especially clear cutting, to "major surgery". When one goes to a doctor, they will get references, second opinions, seek out the best specialist in the area, etc.
Why not do the same when wanting to harvest their timber so as to maintain their timber land " values and forest health". :'(
i speak from personal expierience when i say this . most people think that when you log a tract you can go in and make it look like you werent there. well your wrong because you are running a 10 - 25 ton machine over the groung and you spin once in a while yur gonna leave ruts and holes and they are hard to fix. also when you cut a tree that is a lot of wieght coming down so you are gonna knock stuff down. and when youre loggin in the summer if you breathe on the trees to hard the bark comes off so if you hit it with a skidder it comes off. most people think that "oh theres nothing to it" and oh could do it, its not hard. well to everyone that thinks like that im not tryin to be rude but you try to wiggle an machine with a skid of 40-90 ft trees through the woods and not mess anything up. I try to make things look as best i can but sometime s theres nothing you can do
TJ240, it's good that you try to do a good job and your right, it can be hard not to make a bit of a mess no matter what your running. What ticks me off is the guys who don't make any effort to do a good job and avoid messing things up >:(
well i guess i'll jump in here with my 2cents worth
i've cut timber since 1973 i started in maine working for the big timber outfits on clear cuts untill the late 80s got tired of seeing the damage done to the land by operators that just did'nt care. Now i'm not saying everyone is like that.
i moved to tn in 1990 and started working for my self untill i retired in 2003 and let my son take over. if you are careful and dirctional fall there is very little damage. i have taught my son to never drag anything over 40' and to take your time so as not to damage the woods. He is now rehavesting tracks that i cut when i first started.
gene
........And that's the way it oughta be.
Good Show!
I guess, "stuff happens" would not be adequate an excuse to me if I was a landowner. If you know that skidder tires are going to bum up my trees then you better find a way to avoid it. It a logger thinks its O.K. to make ruts you better have a plan for fixing them. If skidding tree length might damage my residual stand then you better find a different way to do it.
I will hire the guy that assures me that these things wont happen and has references to back that up. I simply will refuse to hire the one that makes excuses for them to occur. Sure, "stuff" happens, but if it does, one better be prepared for those events and have a remedy in hand or suffer the financial consequences
Every now and then the big guy gets it right.
All I can say to you, Honorable JeffB, is:
ATTA BOY!!!!!!!!
Ditto! Good surgeons don't leave unsightly scars and "good loggers" don't "scar the landscape". We do want it to look like we weren't there and sustain the ecosystem as it was. :P
Well said guys. Now, if we could only get everyone to think like that :)
I think the key to being carefull is not to try and rush the job, cut your bolts to length off the stump, use directional felling and work theo land when there is least possible damage (weather-wise). I've seen alot of poor work with certain equipment and I've see good work with the same equipment. I know some folks that would beat and thrash and mull through the bush and others that would stick to designated trails during dry weather or freeze up. Harvesting in hardwood in summer does lend to more residual bark damage, but you can plan those trail side trees to be bumper trees where you are going to be travelling alot. There are lots of ways to reduce residual and land damage, just takes some planning time. Alot of people skip the planning and go straight to cutting. It's quite evident there is a lack of planning when you see someone made 5 or 6 bladed trails/roads parallel to one another on 4 acres of flat ground. I hate seeing that. ::)
cheers
Just sit quietly back in the coffee shop and listen. Note the guys who brag about how many trees they can fall a day, etc, etc. Then drive by their logging site. Invariably, the woods will look like it has been bombed. I bought some logs from one of those windbags once. When I went out there they had driven over every inch of a 10 acre farm field with the skidder and loader. Cutoff ends were everywhere mashed into the mud. The whole place was rutted. I supposed the property was going to be stripmined next, but found out no, that was just standard procedure. You can imagine, then, what the woods looked like. This guy liked to brag how he was an expert because he had taken the logging training. Next breath he would claim he never watched a tree fall. It was a waste of time, and HE was heading for the next one while that one was falling. The idiot thought everybody believed him. I never messed with him any more.
Foran,
Reminds me of the logger than said he never needed a compass because he always walked a straight line. :D :D :D
Faron, you would have seen a worse mess at a house construction site if the logger in the coffee shop had been a carpenter bragging about how many nails he can drive in a day and how many houses he can build in a year.
Any initial land disturbance, whether it's a new house being built, a forest being logged, an orchard being pushed out to make way for a new one, an old house being torn down to make way for a new one, etc., etc, looks messy. These activities are the preparation stage for something else. Logging is the preparation stage for a new forest. These activities all look like total devastation.
Granted, logging looks worse than most, except for house construction in my mind, because of the large heavy plants (trees) being cut and drug out. You just can't do that without making a mess.
Don't judge logging or a logger by how an ongoing logging operation looks, any more than you'd judge a builder on how messy his construction site is. Judge the logger a couple years later, when nature has softened the disturbance.
If it looks like a mess then, and I've seen them too, only then you can blame the logger for doing a bad job. But, you also have to blame the landowner for allowing the logger to leave his mess. This point has been discussed in this thread and a couple others.
Just looking at it from my persepctive.
1) logging makes a mess looks ugly to the passer by.
2) the mess can be kept to one area and not strewn about.
3) there is always residual stand damage, but it can be minimized with effort.
4) one should only believe what can be witnessed and not from a coffee shop conversation. I've personally seen alot of competition bashing which was very untruthful.
5)landowners can share the blame on the majority of logging sites. I know I might get flamed for that, but if the owner is like most in my area he'll usually cash in the woodlot near retirement age or in financial hardship. The public sees the mess. But, that's how the stumpage is sold in most cases here. I'de be glad to help any landowner with supervision of a single tree selection or any other clearcut alternative. We foresters can't work for free. Not all loggers need supervision either. Loggers get references or train with a forester (timber mark). Both logger and forester can learn from one another.
6) the logger that cuts away without taking precautions or using directional felling is usually high grading or clearcutting and would not be desirebale for alot of other treatments. When he says he's not watching the tree fall, he's lucky or lying. You make the choice.
7) One is only considered an 'expert' if others view you that way, or certify you as such with periodic follow-ups on your work. Self indoctrination isn't very successful. A one time exam usually doesn't say much. That's why the most successful are continually learning, interacting with peers on a professional level and improving their skills.
cheers
I hope my post was not misunderstood as an indictment of all loggers or logging in general. I myself log enough to supply some logs for my mill. We try to have as low impact on the woods as possible. One way to achieve that is to cut logs to final length where they land and skid out the short lengths. No matter how careful one is, the occasional tree is going to damage something you wish it hadn't. What I am refering to is those woods where most everything not cut is damaged, broken stems, etc.
A few years ago, a hillside was clearcut next to a christmas tree farm we go to every year . The christmas tree farm owners were kind of sick about it at the time, because their customers had to pass it on their way in. I have been watching the area now for several years, and there is dramatic growth and competition in the natural regrowth in the cut area. These will be some tall,straight and healthy trees in the future. This appeared to me to be a true clearcut, and I think it was probably the best harvesting process for that piece of ground. To me, a properly done clearcut beats an improperly done selective job in appearance.
Foran,
I hope you didn't feel scrutinized, I was just offering my perspective. I've supervised the thinning of thousands of acres of clearcut lands. Believe me, I can always tell who did a good job because the worst jobs are usually full of pincherry, raspberry, striped maple and mountain maple. One thing is for certain, alot of folks are consistant. That being said, I know a large landowner that I've walked alot of pin cherry ground to search for thinning. I can't figure out why a man could destroy so much regen. :-\ I would also reserve judgement on any site I never seen pre-harvest conditions. I seen alot of passer byes call a site high graded when it started out as pulpwood and decadent timber (pre-harvest). There are always the ones that have nothing better to do than make trouble and insult. :-\
Thanks for the further explanation, Faron. I have to defend loggers, since in my job I get lots of complaints from both the general public and landowners themselves who are horrified at the mess a logger is making in their woods.
Most times I feel they aren't giving the logger a chance. They complain about the job while it is being done, but they never come back and say a word about how much nicer it looks a few years later. And I've never heard anybody complain about the mess a home builder makes, or even a huge shopping mall construction site that is permanently deforesting several acres of woodland.
Sounds like you've had some positive experiences too, and I'm glad you and SwampDonkey shared them. ;D
I understand and agree with what you both are saying. In my area, most timber is in small tracts. Often, a lot of a tract is visable from county roads. You know, I think one problem is the good loggers jobs are not as noticible as the few goobers who don't care. Soon as the photo thing is available again, I will post a picture of that clearcut. For now , I have a floor waiting for me to make, out of some of the oneriest beech lumber you ever saw. :( ::) Should be a fun day of planing.
Hold on there, Faron!!
There's lots of photos already of bad logging jobs. Show some nice ones for a change!!! ;D
They're actually easier to find than bad ones. But most people don't realize they're looking at a good logging job because they don't stand out. It looks natural.
A secret hint for non-belivers......, go back to what you thought was a bad logging job a few years ago and see how it looks now. If there's not a bunch of houses or a shopping center sprouting out of it, I'd bet it looks much better now than when it was being actively logged.
Not to worry, this shows the clearcut several years after it was done. What doesn't probably show up as well as I would have liked are the numerous healthy, tall straight young trees competing for sunlight on this hillside. It actually proves your point, or would had I been a little better photographer. In a few years , I expect some trees to begin to dominate, and others to begin to die out. Just adds a little extra for me to our yearly Christmas tree expedition.
Here we go.
Look at all that biodiversity. Look at all that wildlife habitat. Even a tall tree for raptors to perch in. Imagine all that carbon dioxide being consumed and all that oxygen being produced. Look at the erosion control those trees are providing with all those roots.
A young, vigorous, healthy forest. That's the reason for clearcutting - to regenerate a forest. It's the last resort, to replace a forest in poor condition.
At the very same instant clearcutting is the end of one forest, it is the beginning of a new one.
Well Faron, that photo resembles a logging site near me were the "Sisters of Charity" clear cut a 200+ acre site several years ago at their retreat. Surely,a travasty in God's eyes, I can only hope they repent.
Secondly, I met a fellow who was such a crook he was cutting the venerable and highly profitable Cherry trees off of state lands along the roads. He is now serviing some time in the State Penn for his cut and run practice. :-\
I repeat...... at the same instant clearcutting is the end of one forest, it is the beginning of a new one.
The big trees we all enjoy all started as little ones like these. Someday they will be as big as the ones cut.
If cornstalks were as big as trees, people would complain when the farmer harvested his fields.
I suppose but a little moderation could have gone a long way!
We had that instance here in eastern Washington where the corn stalks were growing a little too tall towards the middle of a corn field. The county sheriff stopped and took a closer look. Nine months later the farmer and his brother were serving time for growing a more valuable crop of hemp in the middle of their corn field!
Mend (or is it Mind?) your crops boys.
;D :D :D :D :D :D ;D
According to Ontario police there is a certain group of simple farmers, under a certain church I won't name, that are responsible for 20 % of the marijuana drug trade in Canada. It was published in the 2005 January issue, Canadian edition, of Readers' Digest. ;D
When I am settling a logging contract, I ALWAYS make it very clear that it will look like a BOMB went off when we are done(at least in the short term).....Why?
Well, because I would rather have that as hier expextation and be pleasantly suprised than the opposite ;)
I agree with ya there Buzz. It's always best to give the worst scenerio/outcome and have the owner pleased to see something better result. ;D
hey buzz thats pretty slick ;)
Quote from: Buzz-sawyer on February 13, 2005, 03:36:10 PM
When I am settling a logging contract, I ALWAYS make it very clear that it will look like a BOMB went off when we are done(at least in the short term).....Why?
Well, because I would rather have that as hier expextation and be pleasantly suprised than the opposite ;)
I have seen too many good jobs to ever allow that in a woodlot I owned. I see these guys using forwarders and processors do surgery and never know they were in a northern hardwoods the week after,other then a few branches. THe trees are processed where they stand leaving limbs at each tree location that flatten quickly. No Brush piles! The branches quickly return to the soil.
THis day and age, no way no how am I going to let a bomb go off.
I'm with Jeff. In this day and age there is no reason a timber harvest should look like a bomb went off. Even a regenerative clearcut can look good if done properly.
While I don't tell people that their property will look like a bomb went off, I do let them know that a timber harvest will change the appearance of their woodlot. It is impossible to harvest timber but leave all the trees. If nothing else, they will notice more light getting to the forest floor everywhere a tree was removed.
The best sales tool I have to convince a landowner to partner with me on their timber harvest is the passenger side seat in my pickup. If we drive around for awhile and they see what kind of work we do they usually go with us. I don't make a habit of taking them past bad logging jobs. It would seem that I am running down my competition and most landowners are already familiar with appearance of a poor quality logging job.
Jeff
I have Never seen such a logging job, that you could not tell loggers had been there
, using diresctional felling, running skidders, cutting out tops, and dragging out logs makes a an imprint , that IS substantial and lasts a while ....
I feel it would be dishonest and un clear to set a persons expectations any other way, and frankly I have talked several small wood lot owners OUT OF logging, because when you remove the trees that are the value and change the woods , the place may not be the same magical woodlot you enjoy squirrel hunting, The value is greater (to me ) but not to all people.
I have never Seen a forwarder in our locality or in travels across the lower mid west...that dont mean they do not exist , but, definitely not common, and Every logger I know in this area, that is working and willing to do smaller logging operations, needs to keep a reasonable pace to get in and out and provide service.
I work with my local State forester on wood lot improvements, and am known as a GENTLE logger ( a will take the long way and hours to not damage trees ), but if the people have not seen a before and after of a lot that is cut , it is remarkably different. The trees are GONE. That alone is a huge difference, the first year the underbrush is disturbed, the whole place definitely has noticable, and scary changes for some people, tops can scare folks if they arent prepared in advance for what is comming.......some people just see dollar sign s and I try to wake them up to the fact that they are changing thier wood lot....I try to do that for them , because I would want to be told myself....
I want some other loggers to chime in on this, I do not do massive projects, I cut locally , for neighbors and have to live with , them and maintain a reputation, I enjoy what I do and take great care on them.....because I care about the woods.
Buzz, A post like you just made is much more reassuring the the one where you say "it's goona look like a bomb went off"
well i think that any one thats read some of my posts know where i stand on this one. and although i dont log anymore my son still does and he still follows the gude lines i have put inplace over the yrs.
all ways leave a tract looking as close as you can the way you started the job.
cut you slash low so it will regenerate back into the eco system as soon as possible. by all means make shore that you clean up your trash not only at the landing but in the woods as well.
Now as far as telling a land owner not to cut his wood lot. I have done that a few times. When there was not enough timber to make it worth the damage done. My self and now my son cut for a lot of older folks that still have timber or small lot and the only way they can make their taxes is to cut enough timber to pay to pay them or lose their land. in that case i try to cut as much of the culls and pallet and short bodied trees that will not be of any value down the road. like i said before we have built up enough trust in the land owners around here that my son is now covered up and he enough work to last him for several years to come. This comes from truth,honesty,and doing the best job you can.
Now buzz see what ya done ya got me started again. ;D gene
We had a sawmill in our town once that started as a circle mill for years but switchd to a band mill with a 6 inch blade about 15 years before he closed 15 years ago.
He logged and bought logs from other loggers. He was a clear cutter/smasher. He cut pallet stock and also made pallets so he would timber a property and cut anything down to 5 inches. My uncle and my neighbor both worked at the mill at different times and they said that alot of sawyers came and went because they had to cut hollow logs and twigs(5"). He left for the south when he had everyone streched out. He owed money to his workers, loggers and even the pallet companies. He sold his place to his boy ten years earlier so when they came to collect all thet found was a bunch of unmaintained equipment that was not even worth hauling for scrap steel as it was down at the time. His boy just cleaned up all of the equipment as scrap last year and his dad even talked his boy out of that money. Needless to say that loggers have had a hard time in this area buying timber for years.