We had a really balmy, foggy, humid, wet day yesterday. It got up to around 50, and all the snow here in Grand Rapids melted away, making the air incredibly humid. It's amazing what this does in the shop! Everything in my shop developed a thin layer of rust. I was out there cleaning, and as I moved around the shop, I'd occasionally rub against the surface of my jointer or table saw. Man, there was a TON of condensation, and everywhere I inadvertently wiped part of the table surface, more rust appeared. You could almost see the rust develop!
I've got Boeshield and Johnson's Paste wax on top of that, but it must be time for a replacement coating. Today's going to be spent getting rid of the rust, and recoating things. It really is amazing how quickly cast iron can get a thin coating of rust in these sorts of conditions! This is a good reminder for me to follow the weather, and to get out there before the next thaw and redo the wax ahead of time.
I use those Scotch Brite pads attached to a random orbital sander, along with some mineral spirits to get rid of the rust in short order--seems to work well.
The thing I wonder is what does all the condensation do to my motors... ::)
next time you know a thaw is coming turn up the heat beforehand. Think cold can of beer on a humid day- sucks the water right out of the air.
Yeah, I've thought of that too--wish I could. ::) My shop's in my garage, and I just heat it when I'm out there. I use just a space heater right now, but I'm planning on installing a woodstove, so maybe I could get in there a day ahead and keep the fire going to keep things warm enough to avoid the condensation. Right now, I'm stuck though. ::)
Is this a on-stage call for 'rust reaper' ? Would a light spray coating of rust reaper help when the condensation hits? Seems condensation is around whenever the temps outside get above 30°F and the shop is still lagging behind that temp.
wood stove will help SOME but I spent three hours last night doing the same thing to all my machines.
I couldnt believe how much rust had formed and I know they all had a good coat of wax because I wax them after each major job. Last major job was a couple weeks ago.
I have had the stove going non stop hoping to prevent some of the rusting but looks like I am going to have to put in a dehumidifier if I want to stop it all together.
We got another inch of rain last night and schools are closed because of flooding again.
Paschale,
A small investment in a dehumidifier might pay big dividends in protecting your equipment as well as any wood you have stored in there. I have used one in my workshop (72'x96') for years and it keeps the rust at bay. I only heat the shop when the outside temps fall below 20° for a high so I can maintain the shop temp above 40°. Now if I could only do something about the dust . . .
I have several pieces of power equipment in an unheated building, after using them I brush on a coating of diesel oil on the polished surfaces. Keeps the condenced water from reaching metal and is easy to wipe off before using.
D, any problems with moisture on your motor windings or switch contacts?
Rust doesn't seem to be a big problem at my shop. I don't heat it and it's well insulated. There may be a spot here and there that comes, but not bad. I never have any troubles with the motors.
D....that is what Cowboy Bob does with his equipment when he prepares it for storage during the winter. The first time I saw him brushing oil all over his tractors and balers, etc....I thought he lost his mind. It works!
When I bought my place it had all the right bit's 'n' pieces, they just had them put together all wrong. :D
It had a wood fired forced air furnace and a well for the throne.
What I did was put a return line back to the well and a second, very small pump with a continous-duty motor on it in parrallel to the tap and throne.
I then installed a large pickup truck (Ford PSD) radiator in the plenum of the furnace. I run the blower fan and the small pump during this type of weather, and also during the warm months.
It doesn't affect the temperature all that much, maybe 10 degrees difference from outside, but the amount of humidity it sucks out of the air is unreal.
You notice the difference the in summer, even if it's in the low 80's out there it is still comfortable because the humidity is so low.
A small fan circulating air 'might' help keep the moisture from condensing on the metal surfaces. Might be worth a try.
I haven't seen much rust on my tools, and I can't remember the last time I waxed any of the machines...guess I've been lucky so far ::) Then again, my shop is in the basement where my woodstove is that I heat the house with.
A dehumidifier is definitely going to be a must, though. I couldn't wait until the cold weather hit so I could fire up the woodstove to dry out the basement. Everything was so damp down there, I thought the holding tank for my water had a small leak in it from all the condensation coming off of it. My problem this past summer wasn't my machines rusting, but the particleboard top on my radial arm saw is now covered with green fuzz >:( Guess I'll have to replace it with a piece of plywood that has a couple coats of poly on it.
I keep my shop heated throughout the winter. When I leave the shop I turn down the thermostat as low as it will go. I've never had a condensation problem when doing this. I find that if you keep the metal on tools warm, you shouldn't have a problem with condensation. The problem comes if the metal is colder than the air.
I guess for me, it's the dilemma of the cost of heating a shop in winter when I'm just a hobbyist--I can't justify running heat out there in a drafty old garage. ::) This happened last spring too, and I know it will happen again when the weather turns warmer again. Not only do I get moisture on the tools, but the cold concrete floor sucks moisture out of the air like you wouldn't believe! So I'm battling the moisture on the tools, as well as all the added moisture that results from the floor too. When spring comes, and the temp is likely to stay above 45 degrees, I'll definitely put my dehumidifier out there. I have two, and only one will work down to 45 degrees. I'll see what that does for me.
A friend at work uses infrared heaters in his professional shop. I think this could be the ideal source of heat to prevent condensation. Apparently, the way these infrared heaters work is that they heat objects within the room, and so the heat is actually produced from those objects as opposed to direct heat from the infrared heater. Sounds kind of bizarre to me, but he says that's how it works. Makes me wonder how much one would be to operate at a minimal level to keep things warm enough to avoid the inevitable rust problem.
Same problem only worse in my shop. Starts to rain with water dripping off the trusses and the concrete floor will be completely wet. I guess it happens maybe 5-10 days in the spring and bout the same in the fall. Rest of the year it is fine. I keep all the machinery waxed with Johnson's paste wax. Cut up some old plastic tarps about 1' bigger than the machine and throw these over the machines to keep the water off. Make sure air can circulate under the tarp and only use them when necessary.
One-,
I put my saw mill in the barn in the winter and have had a problem with the permanent magnet dc motor on it. The motor is enclosed and moisture will condense in it and cause corrosion on the brushes and holders so that the brushes stick. I drilled half a dozen 1/16 holes in the bottom of the case and it solved my problem. The rest of motors I don't use till the temperature warms up and have not had any problem.
Maybe a job for Rust Reaper?
http://www.rustreaper.com/cgi-bin/store/cp-app.cgi?pg=test_corrosion
I use this. Awesome. Vermonter turned me onto it.
You do need to wipe it off before use, and I coat my tools liberally.
http://www.gemplers.com/a/shop/product.asp?T1=G55625&UID=
[size=8]Rust Reaper[/size] ;)
I had the same problem when my shop was in the barn, concrete floor.
I built a shop with wood floor and only heat it when I'm out there. It's been 5 years now and never have to oil or wax any of my tools.
EZ
I just ordered a gallon of RUST REAPER with the sprayer.
Got a whole truck I'm going to spray. ;D
Have been using paint on spots and making my own oil-based concoctions for years.
I'll have to try to be sceintific about it and give you a report next year... ;)
And in the meantime , I'm expecting great results in the nut loosening department. :)
A Gallon! Thats a lifetime supply! :D
Too bad the tin man didn't have it for taking a bath. :D
Spruce bunny, use summer grade chain oil to undercoat the pickup and around the doors and wheel wells. It's miscous enough to stick without dripping all over ya.
SD,
How do you apply it :P do you cut it with kero or sumpin' cause dat stuff's so tick, I wouldn't want ta apply it wit a paint brush. :o
Paschale if ya watch da weather report and you know the rust conditions are a comin' just put an electric heater and a small fan out there.
I was out yesterday and even the crome vanadium wrenches are rusting in the tool boxes. This is in an unheated wooden floor building. Makes ya sad! Next building is gonna be heated and maybe dehumidified.
The mix i've been making is bar +chain , 90 weight, some special viscous addative and paint thinner.You need a thinner so it will really soak in and exclude moisture. I get those little aerosol sprayers that you fill or use the spray gun.
The trucks I've got could each soak up a quart or two ;)
I expect the Rust Reaper to penetrate better than my mix.Then I might put something thicker over it.
Good idea on the rust reaper, Jeff--hadn't thought of that. As I'm thinking about Rust Reaper, I'm wondering if it'd be the sort of thing where you'd use it while you're not using your tools, and then would need to wipe/clean it off before running wood through it. Some of the products that I've read about can leave some residue on the wood, which effects the staining process. I've heard that's one of the greatest benefits of using Johnson's paste wax over whatever you apply. Perhaps a thin coat of RR, followed by a layer of Johnson's wax would do the trick.
Maybe Mike of RR could shed some light for us! :) I love the stuff, btw...loosens things up great, and I've already used it on my old mill to great effect.
Rust reaper is a good idea for the tools (table tops) as that is what I plan on using on mine. I usually sprayed a light coat of WD-40, kept the rust away. I guess I never mentioned that before in the earlier post. ;D
termite,
Apply the summer grade chain oil with a paint sprayer on the air compressor.Then go on the back dusty road so it adheres good. Some folks pay the local garage $100 for the Rust Check treatment, I'm too cheep. ;D
One thing that helped in my garage was putting in a roof vent when I re- roofed. Looks like we'll going through spring thaw a few more times this year at this rate. I had planned on insulating and adding heat last fall, it's still on the list. I don't think anything but heat would help with this weeks weather.
That is the reason for the vents in the soffits and gables on the house. Without them, moisture gets trapped in the attic and you have condensation. Just make sure they are covered with fine window screen to keep birds and insects out.
My garage is not attached to the house. For whatever reason (cost saving) it was built without vents in the soffit or roof. Only real problem is in in the spring when the slab sweats. I added the vent while re-roofing and noticed a difference.
Jeff, does Rust reaper have a filming product like Gempler's? I didn't see anything like that in there site. Perhaps I missed it. I have a loading dock with a 30" jointer on it that I'd like to protect from ambient moisture. Additionally, I have been moth balling large industrial wood working equipment for years using red grease and plastic trimmed at the edges to protect metal surfaces and then palletized and tarped with used rubber roofing that works well for long term storage. I need something in between. Reid
I use the dlue or pink extruded poly foam insulation cut to the size of my table tops . keeps the warm moist air from contacting the surface of the tops . I also wax once or twice a year with auto wax.
This is an interesting, and timely, thread. Late this past week I was talking with the guys from whom we rent some space. They manufacture knife and saw grinders, which use a lot of castings. After these castings are machined, they will rust very quickly. If not protected those machined surfaces will quickly pit and, perhaps, have to be re-ground.
They had been using a cheap penetrating oil (Probably similiar to WD-40) from Wal-Mart for rust protection, and finding that the protection did not last long. I suggested that they try Fluid Film, which is the product Gempler sells. (btw, John Deere dealers used to handle Fluid Film also.) I have a lot of respect for products using wool wax for long-term rust prevention.
Rust Reaper is formulated with anti-corrosion additives, but that is incidental to its' ability to penetrate and lubricate.
After some further discussion, my landlord decided to buy some Rust Reaper and use it for their application. I think it will work well for them since clean up should be quicker with the Rust Reaper and it will give them rust protection for the time frame that they require. It undoubtedly helps that delivery is convenient and that they know the fellow that makes the product.
Paschale, I would expect that there would be some difficulty applying wax over RR, since you will have some remaining lubricant for some time.
Sprucebunny, thanks for the order. Please let us know how it works for you.
Thanks,
Mike
I look forward to the day when that rust reaper winds up in autozones and walmarts.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/rr2.gif)
Thanks for the reply Mike--I appreciate it! :)
Good suggestion on the pink poly foam too, Don_P--I think that'd help too. I've heard of guys using cardboard on top of their tools, but was always a little suspicious of how well that would work. I think the foam idea would work much better.
Funny Mike should mention Fluid Film at John Deere Dealers, I saw some at my tractor dealer in Vermont the other day.
Captain
I like fluid film alot, as rust protction and freeing stuck stuff. Our Dept of Transportation uses it on all our snow removeing/salt appling fleet, and as a maritime area with a lot of weather and wildly changing temps, its put to the test. we went from +16C to -15C the other day. I'd like to try the rust reaper stuff though, sounds good. Cheers FMK
Well, it's been quite the thaw here the past week--humid, wet and moist. It seems that my application a few weeks ago is holding just fine. It was some work to get all the rust off from the previous thaw, but then I put the Boeshield on pretty thick, and because I'm not really using my shop much at all these days, I loaded the Johnson's on pretty thick, and didn't buff it off at all. Seems to be keeping the moisture away just fine! ;D I'll be curious to see how much of a chore it'll be to buff caked on, dried paste wax when I do decide to get out there and build something, but regardless, that's gonna be tons better than having to deal with that rust from a month ago!
I think my fix is working!!!!!!
I purchased the magnetic engine block heaters that you put on your oil pan and instead of puting them on my engine, I put them on my saw, jointer, and planer. I plug them in during the morning when most condensation forms.
No condensation problems in the last month and not a SPOT of rust anywhere on my machines. I hope this is the fix. Got my Electric bill and didnt notice much of an increase from the month before. Maybe a couple bucks.
Well, that sounds interesting Kirk. :P I'd definitely like to know more about those. You say you use them on your jointer...I know iron holds heat well, but do you feel that it's getting enough heat out to the very ends of the bed to be beneficial? It sounds like something worth trying. Were they expensive?
Dan
So far no rust on the ends of the jointer. They make them with several different wattage. I think the ones I have are 25 or 50 watt. I have had them since living in Alaska. I think I paid about $10 each for them but that was 10 years ago.
I know Napa sells the magnetic heaters as does most Farm Supply outfits. Be careful if you get one from a Farm Supply. They are upwards of 250 watts and they get HOT! They are more for use on Tractors in the winter.
Man, Kirk...that sounds like a GREAT idea! Thanks for passing that one on. I know I'll be fighting this as long as my shop is what it is, so I know I'll be trying those block heaters. I'll let you all know how this turns out for me.
Hey Kirk,
I finally was able to stop at TSC today. They had some 200 W block heaters, for tractors....I'm thinking maybe this would still be too much heat? I was looking online, and I kept finding block heaters that say they heat the oil pan up near 300 degrees--must be the ones you were suggested I avoid. You could cook an egg on top of the table saw with temps like that! :D I haven't had any luck finding any heaters with less wattage than that...if anyone has some suggestions, I'd sure appreciate it!
Have you thought of those little heaters like small electric blankets that they use under seedling trays for starting plants early in the spring? You can get them at garden centers in NZ probably the same there.
I was in a NAPA auto store yesterday that had 25-50 watt heaters. Sad part was they wanted $39 for them.
Thanks Kirk...I'll go swing by a NAPA store next week and take a look at those...then come home, and see if I can't find 'em cheaper online. $39 is a lot of money, but it seems if it will last me for 15 or more years, and will help take care of this on my table saw every winter, well, it's money well spent. But there's nothing wrong with trying to find it cheaper... ;)
Thanks for the suggestion Ernie. I guess what I like about what Kirk suggested is that these are magnetic, and they'll stick right to the bottom of the table saw. Maybe you're idea would work though too... ???
Found this page on line. It doesnt show the 50w magnetic but does have the pad.
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/search_results_kw.d2w/report