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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM

Title: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM
When I purchased this mill the previous owner had a 56" blade mounted. I don't want to mess up that blade in my learning curve so I swapped it out for a 48" blade. The issue is that I need to move the blade guide back and situate it on the 48" blade. How far onto the blade should the wooden guides be? I imagine the distance between the teeth and the pegs is the most important factor. If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be grand and glorious. Thank you for helping!

Don't worry, I will end up posting many more photos/videos once the weather is frigid but for now I will just be posting trouble shooting photo's. 
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/Sawmill_blade_guide_screen_shot.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1535553348)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on August 29, 2018, 11:38:33 AM
Guidepins should just clear your shanks.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: CCCLLC on August 29, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Exactly like Jeff has said. Just under shanks at first available smooth surface. Control that cutting edge as close as possible.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 12:17:03 PM
Awesome! Thank you Jeff and CCCLLC for the help!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on August 29, 2018, 07:16:35 PM
Jemmy,  good evening.

Just a though, you're gonna want to know what the arbor RPM is geared at.
The saw speed (surface feet per minute) is going to change with the smaller saw
 and will probably not saw as well as it could unless you pick up the arbor RPM speed.

Let us know how u do,

best
D

Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 17, 2018, 11:21:49 PM
Ok, I was able to break the bolts that secured the guide pins, allowing me to move the pins to what I believe is the correct position for the new 48" blade. I have posted updated photos of the updated positioning. If you all could tell me what else needs to be address with the pins that would be great! My primary concern now is how plum the pins are and whether or not the distance (currently about 1/8" on each side), if there is even suppose to be any, between the pins and blade are appropriate. And despite these photos, I got the cable system hooked up and taught. So there is only two things left before testing the saw. These pins and I have a leak in the radiator :( ... But this has been two years in the making so I am pretty ecstatic, just need to figure these couple of issues. In regards to rim speed, I really have no idea how to calculate it. The power source is a 3-71 Detroit diesel with a standard transmission. The directions for cutting from the previous owner was "slam it into 2nd and bring it up until you hear the Detroit hum" hahaha, so not the most scientific fashion of distinguishing feed rates, rim speed etc. Any ideas on how to approach?  


 


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Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 18, 2018, 05:16:44 AM
Things may change with the distance on your guides when you start things up.  I always adjusted my pins on a running saw, but I wouldn't suggest that to someone without a bunch of experience around a running saw.  I'd loosen the pins up to see how the saw stands when its running.  Then shut it off and adjust until you get to where you can see daylight around the guides.  It may take a little bit of playing around with them to get them right.  

Get a digital tach to check your RPM.  They aren't very expensive.  There as some that are contact type.  Those you hold on the center of the shaft.  Others are non contact and are checked with a laser on a piece of reflective tape.  No need to get close to the spinning shafts.  Both will fit your needs.  The laser type are about $10 on Ebay.

Most mills of that era ran about 540 RPM.  When I was running diesels, they had a tach on them, and the throttle was set that it ran at a certain RPM.  These were industrial Detroits and didn't have a transmission.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 18, 2018, 07:58:21 AM
If you bring the engine speed up from idle, with the blade spinning, and at say half speed the saw starts to wobble, and slowly keep increasing speed until the saw runs flat, that is the hammered speed.    While sawing you cannot go below this speed. If you had the tach  described above, you could know this rpm when making this test.    What make is this sawmill?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 19, 2018, 09:20:47 PM
Alrighty, well I will be doing some shopping on ebay for a tachometer. And in terms of RPMs is there such a thing as too fast? Obviously there is too fast for the Detroit. But once you exceed the hammered speed does the outside pin have the responsibility of keeping the blade from bowing too far outward? This mill is an American Mill that has been set on a 6" H beam frame. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 20, 2018, 06:35:25 AM
Guide pins is sort of a misnomer.  They don't really guide the saw, but protect it from knot dodge and other sorts of things when the cut goes off line.  

The last mill I ran, I was running 700 RPM.  That's what the mill was set up for, and that's what the saws were hammered for.  If you run too fast, your saw just won't perform very well.  Fast running saws are harder for maintenance.  Your teeth have to be in good shape.  The angle has to be good and there can't be any corners off on the teeth.  The saw collars also have to be in good shape.  There isn't that much of an advantage on an older mill to run that fast.  Most of them ran around 540 RPM.  

If you go too fast for what the saw has been hammered, it will bow out, which will also effect your lead, especially if you are holding it back with the guide pins.  You'll also get heat in the rim, and that will twist the saw.  You'll also be burning up your guide pins.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Gearbox on October 20, 2018, 09:03:59 PM
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 21, 2018, 09:04:24 AM
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Me too, or even 50 rpm over depending on how the governor takes ahold.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: DMcCoy on October 21, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2018, 12:27:56 PM
I remember my saw doc saying that you can go +/- 25 RPM from how the saw was hammered without too many problems.  I couldn't do that at the higher RPM that I ran.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 21, 2018, 09:09:12 PM
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available.
Are they style 3 or something larger?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 12:39:15 AM
Yep, that's my old blade, I got a nice 56" blade being stored inside that will act as my primary soon, just want to get through the learning curve on this one, I ordered a laser RPM tachometer and chrome paint. I'm going to get the radiator problem hashed out tomorrow hopefully, and will be making my couple of passes. The capable system is hooked up, the blade is pretty well secured, just need to tidy a few things up with black tape, zip ties, a few minutes with the cut off wheel, and 1 run to TSC or Home depot and I'll have my first couple of boards. Pretty exciting to be this close, practically been two years since I dropped the down payment for this mill. Got what seems like an eternally long knock out list of knick-nacky projects, after the already mentioned problems are solved (radiator, etc) Ive got to set up the throttle, but Im, thinking I will be able to rig something for the mean time hehe. I've got practically all day tomorrow to work on it, so I should have things tidied up and ready for testing by tomorrow night, all things going exactly to plan and what not..... I will keep you all up to date, I'm probably going to start a separate thread for this build, I have hours and hours of video that I took of the extraction of the mill, building of the form, and what not, I have practically the entire project captured on my go pro, just need to condense it. These are my current problems though, so I don't see this thread disappearing anytime soon. Thank you all for the help so far and for the future help and interest. These past two years have been quite a trip, and I know things are just beginning. Got practically an endless amount of knowledge to acquire, I'm just a young buck trying to cut some great lumber!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 22, 2018, 05:50:30 AM
Mounting the blade.  Put the saw on the arbor, and pull back on the shear pins before tightening.  If you don't, you might snap your shear pins on the first cut.  Snapping shear pins is nasty.  Also, when you tighten, you can overtighten and smash your collars.  The way I tightened up the nut was to snug it up with the wrench, then kick the end of the wrench 3-4 times.  That's tight enough.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 04:14:25 PM
Well, I have the guide pins off of the blade by 1/8th inch and secured well. In terms of the shear pins, I put the blade on and how I thought it went together then tightened down the nut with a 36" pipe wrench no kicking, just the force of 250lbs giving a few pulls (not me my big friend), there were two pins that were inserted into the collar, then were inserted into the mill through the blade before the tightening of the nut.  I hope this makes sense, I've had the saw up to rpms and everything seemed to be good in terms of the the securing of the blade. I really did not understand your explanation of what to do with the shear pins, and from what you described as the consequence I don't fancy having my shear pins break on my first cut. If you or someone could put it into other terms or explain differently this technique that would be grand and glorious. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 22, 2018, 07:07:25 PM
I was describing what to do when you have the shear pins and collar on the saw.  You pull back on the saw while you snug up the nut.  Chances are you won't shear the pins.  But, it has been know to happen.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 22, 2018, 07:42:46 PM
Those pins are a big deal. What Ron is telling you is that the saw pin holes must be touching the pins in the direction of force when the saw is in the log. They are not shear pins, they are drive pins. They do not have to fit tight and should be smooth. The saw needs to be able to 'oil can' in the collars so dents in the pins are not good.  Never stall or jam the saw in the log as this can dent the pins or worse and over tighten the nut and damage the collars and even bend the threaded end.  When learning to saw there is a lot to keep tract of.  It took me a long time to teach myself to saw and many years to trouble shoot well enough that I can saw every day.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on October 22, 2018, 08:30:52 PM
Jemmy, your doing the right thing going slow and asking questions. Being a sawyer on a circular mill is like learning to ride a bicycle, you just have to do it, a toss or two are to be expected. It seems strange that such large heavy machinery requires such exact adjustment. Really check your lead and be sure no slivers of wood or bark rub the saw plate and heat it. Learn to file straight, best to copy the profile of a new bit. I'm sure their is science involved but handset mill are more of a seat of your pants operation that will become second nature with practice. Frank C.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 09:28:13 PM
SUCCESS! hahaha, got everything set up and went for it. The pins seemed to be in good condition and went into the saw in a somewhat loose fashion but once the nut was spun on tightened there seemed to be a solid connection. First cut is a very little piece that I'm going to put on a shelf, didnt figure out the radiator yet, just kept filling it with water then drained it at the end of the day. Gonna get some fittings tomorrow to hopefully solve the issue. Got the chrome spray paint for the PTO to use in conjunction with the laser tachometer, and a game plan for the throttle, thank you all for the help! Got a lot of tweaking, and little punch list things to do/monitor, feels like I just met my first child haha, hes got a little attitude, but seems to be working pretty good. 





(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/IMG_0284.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1540257672)
 
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Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on November 30, 2018, 09:46:11 PM
OKKKK, so I was attempting to cut up some 4x6s for the track extensions for the sawmill and lost some teeth. When I was cutting my RPMs dropped a few times, I didn't stall the motor, but it did throw the blade into a wobble. After a couple of cuts I noticed I was missing teeth, so I shut the mill down to inspect. What I saw was 2 teeth and their inserts entirely missing and 1 tooth was sheared off  :'( ... to make matters worse I noticed was what looked like hair line fractures in the blade that start in the center and stretch outward like sun-rays (picture below). Now when I bought this mill, the previous owner was not using this blade, something should have triggered my brain then. I have a 56" blade that I believe is in good condition. My question is, did I do this to this blade by having the RPMs drop? Or were these cracks probably there before I started cutting, and I couldn't see them until I started cutting and the cracks re-surfaced. If I did do this to my blade, I do not wish to do the same thing to the 56" blade. And on a separate note, do you NEED the guide pins to run the saw? Or are they there just to insure a straight cut through variable conditions? (like knots and what not) I only cut about 30 bdft before these issues arose. 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/IMG_0513.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1543632337)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on December 01, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
Looks to me like you cleaned the surface rust off the saw when you made a few passes.  Judging from the cracks, I am surprised it stood at all.  There is rust in the cracks, so, it isn't something that you did.  

As for missing teeth, I've done that on numerous occasions.  There were holes in the roof to prove it.  It comes from the shanks being too loose in the sockets.  Sockets can get stretched over time.  You would need an oversized shank to correct it, or you could stretch it by peening the inside of the shank.  I have also tapped on the shoulder of the saw to put it back into place as a fix.  

Do you need guide pins?   You won't be able to control your saw and you will saw into something that will ruin your saw, like a headblock or the like.  Those will rip shoulders off the saw.  There's a lot of things that can pull your saw off line.  They include dull teeth, a chipped tooth, the grain of the log, knots, nails, insulators and a multitude of other things.  Your saw will get hot when it goes off line, and possibly bend.  Then you'll need to get it hammered.  

If nothing else, look at guide pins as an insurance policy.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on December 01, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
If everything was perfect that cracked saw wouldn't clean up unless you sawed watery wood but in this case it showed you what was there. That saw is scrap. Somebody ran that saw to destruction.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on December 01, 2018, 08:58:03 PM
Please don't run that saw anymore. Hang it on a wall somewhere or paint a sign on it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
Well I am very happy I shut things down when I did... When I saw those cracks I knew something was very wrong, and then I thought to myself, "I bet this thing is structurally unsound and might shred apart" So I gave a shout out to my guardian angel for not letting me die quite yet. Ive already got plans for this saw, it should make for a great sign out front!!!! Im still kinda quaking in my boots about that saw. I wasnt as concerned about the missing teeth, i figured that would happen on occasion. Those cracks are another deal though. I figure that saw is a pretty much a bomb waiting to go off... 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 01:34:28 AM
And that makes sense for the guide pins... I didnt really think about the saw getting pulled to the point of ruining or hitting the cart, but I see how it could easily do that! Gosh now that Im sawing I understand why people like bandsaws so much...  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: thecfarm on December 03, 2018, 06:53:41 AM
A very nice thread!!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on December 03, 2018, 07:19:25 AM
I've skimmed the carriage and the dogs, neither of which you ever want to get into so yes do keep your eyes open and thinking cap on at all times. It is not good to ever throw shanks but it will happen occasionally. Take your proposed blade to a sawdoc to be checked and tensioned, it sounds like the previous owner ran his gear hard. One thing to keep in mind is most, but certainly not all stuff thrown by the blade travels in the plane of the blade. Make a point of not being in that line, front or rear, any more than you have to be. I line up, look down that line if needed and then step back to pull the stick.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: apm on December 03, 2018, 08:12:03 AM
It looks like your saw collar is undersized, as well. Make sure it is the same diameter as the back one.

Greg
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: DMcCoy on December 03, 2018, 08:25:38 AM
JC!  That blade gives me the shivers. 

Your 56" saw- those look like 5/16" 4 1/2 8/9 bits.  I would check for stamp marks on your shanks and see if they are still available before spending too much on getting your saw reconditioned.

Yes keep your head out of the saw plane of rotation.  I have both circle mill and bandsaw.  The circle mill will flat out saw faster but has more waste.  It also has the sound and scratch marks you just can't beat.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2018, 09:28:45 AM
I cant imagine ever sawing without guide pins. Even with them, things can get hairy.

Duck and run! A circle sawyer initiation. in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7893.0)

Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 05:37:34 PM
Jeff, that is some scary stuff. Where can I go to have my blade looked at? I don't think my local fab shop will really know what to do :) . I am in the Toledo area, I'm not apposed to driving a great deal to have quality work done. I have a different "good" blade that I should take and have looked at, I assume, before sawing with it, especially after this fiasco.  Btw Jeff the quote on your profile couldn't be more applicable in this thread  ;)
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on December 04, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
Get in touch with one of the local circle mills and find out who they have hammer their saws.  In our area, we had a local saw shop stop by once a month.  They sold mill supplies like files, teeth, etc, and they would pick up saws for hammering.  They would deliver in the next month.  But, if I needed something done right away, I could take the saw to their shop and wait on it.  If you get to talk to a saw doc, you'll learn quite a bit.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 03, 2019, 04:39:07 PM
Ok so I swapped out blades this week and started the mill up to start figuring out this archaic piece of machinery. I am still struggling to find the appropriate rim speed. I had a few moments that gave me legit anxiety, like a positive feed back loop in my brain making me a little timid. I was bring the saw up to speed and the blade appeared to wobble to a GREAT degree for about a quarter second and made a bit of noise. I powered it down immediately. Took a few deep breaths and then started the motor back up. I slowly brought the blade up to speed, watching it want to stand up when I was full throttle, but the top end of that gear was not getting it done, so i shifted it into second and it finally stood up. Once the blade was standing I brought the cart down the line. When the wood made contact with the blade it lost significant RPMs. So I backed it out and kept jacking the RPM's up. But each time it entered the wood I would lose RPM's. While the motor was wound up the blade looked like it was traveling too quick. Or the blade needs rehammered, because it looked "wavy" it wasnt wobbling, but it looked bowed in a goofy fashion. Which freaked me out so I powered it down and now I am sitting in front of my computer typing. I cant keep my RPM's low because the motor keeps giving each time I enter the wood. But I dont know if I am too fast or the blade needs attention. Its a catch 22, I cant run it too fast due to blade, but the motor needs to be wound up to keep the appropriate RPMs. I need this mill to run SOON I have a few projects that are starting to bark down my door. I couldnt imagine buying 500$ of lumber when I have spent so much time and energy getting this thing to this point. It is 95% there, just need to cut 8 4x6s to lay out the track extensions, and build my log stage. Then the mill is "complete". Is there anyone that does mill consulting? I'm going to reach out to the previous owner and see if he can come down and help me trouble shoot. And does anyone know of any saw docs near Toledo? I imagine I would look into Michigan for such a service. Another note, my cable system keep "loosening" significantly after 2 passes. I have no idea why that is happening, but my theory is that the cable keeps lengthening each time it is put under stress. But I have taken multiple inches out of it multiple times.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 03, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
jemmy,

you have to know your engine speed and arbor speed
otherwise your guessing and the saw will never perform well

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 03, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
Get yourself a digital tach and stop guessing. $10-20 on Ebay.  You'll probably find one local.

Make sure you're not getting belt slippage to the mandrel.  

After you have a problem, check your saw too see where it is hot.  If there isn't much heat, then it isn't the saw.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on February 03, 2019, 08:53:37 PM
Oh the joys of a circle mill!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 04, 2019, 01:30:21 AM
Well I know I need to some leveling, but even so I dont know whats going on with the motor, it seems like its wanting to die. Could the blade not standing up correcting cause the blade to cut so bad that it robs RPMs? Thats one theory I have. I'm going to do the nut check and start reading some manuals tonight, and start on a lot of knick nacky projects. It's very close to being able to cut. Just needs a trained eye and an after noon. I have a RPM laser gauge but its inconsistent but even then the RPMs falling is weird. And the cable system, might need replaced, but how much slack can I take out right? haha
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 04, 2019, 01:36:55 AM
When I did my first 10ft x 12" cut it seemed like the motor could just power through it, so Idk why its having problems getting through when the blade seems to be standing. I can see the the right RPM's where it stands but the RPMs fall as the log hits it. So I cranked it up slowly and blade seemed to be doing ok but it kept dying. A few minor adjustments up I see the blade twisted goofy, so I powered it down and came on here to see what happened. And what I can do to learn. Im going to be studying some manuals over the coarse of the next week.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 04, 2019, 08:17:44 AM
As you probably have been told the speed of the saw must remain in the cut.  A big problem for beginners is understanding the swage of the teeth and how it must be equal on both sides. Getting the lead just right is a real pain because if everything is not perfect you can't tell what's going on. Go by the book and be fussy about the teeth as they take the saw where they want.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Sawmill Man on February 04, 2019, 08:36:16 AM
You could also be having governor or fuel delivery problems
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Trapper John on February 04, 2019, 09:07:31 AM
If your Detroit has a transmission it probably came out of a truck and probably has a limited speed governor.  You will need a variable speed governor.  Or maybe your belt is slipping.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2019, 09:43:19 AM
If you have not read this yet, stop, dont do anything else and READ IT.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 04, 2019, 12:11:23 PM
How cold was it when you were trying to get things to go right?   When it gets really cold, things don't go as well.  Especially if you have any water in your fuel.  We always put in fuel conditioner in our tanks.  Metal also doesn't work as well when there is extreme cold.

As for teeth, when I troubleshoot, I always start with new teeth.  That way you eliminate any tooth maintenance problems.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 06, 2019, 05:24:29 PM
Well I have been chunking out that circle mill document. But its like drinking from a fire hose. There's about a million things that could be the issue, and I dont know how to properly asses and address the issues. That is why I am interested in someone coming to point at things that are wrong, and how to fix it. This mill is a nice foundation, it has a 5" beam(s) for its foundation and I put it on a very big foundation. (it is 36"+ thick concrete and 3ft wide) Its just all of the multiple potential issues that has my brain in a twist. I dont even know where to start. I figure even if these teeth are dull that this motor would not have any issues with a 12" cut. I wanted to get this thing running and deal with discrepancies as they arrive and put out each fire as it shows itself. Similar to a truck, you get it running, and find out the breaks are working, or an injector is bad etc. But if it cant start then you cant begin to analyze problems. I dont know what I am looking at half the time and words on a page dont always translate. I am mechanically inclined and when something doesn't seem "right" I can usually see it. But this takes a trained eye. And due to the nature of this thing I really don't want to pay a boat load of tuition in time, headaches, cash, or even my life. I can see how things can go wrong, and FAST, there are no brakes on the blade, and when something goes wrong i can kill the motor, but the blade doesnt stop running for a very long time. I am pretty committed to making this work. I just need to solve this jigsaw asap. Im also in school full time and many other Irons in the fire. I would like this to minimally produce lumber for myself, and slowly build a business around it. Maybe I wont sell dimensional, but there are many potential revenue streams this could contribute to. Its been a two year project and I am at a point where I need someone to set eyes on it so they can tell me the first steps to take. As of right now, I think one of my first moves is replacing the cable. It keeps lengthening each time the cart travels down the track. I have taken multiple feet out of it, which makes NO sense.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 06, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
it was a nice day when I did the test cut. 55 degrees and sunny. So weather was not the factor to blame. Definitely the nut behind the wheel. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on February 06, 2019, 06:54:54 PM
I decided I better get rid of my circle mill when I had the mill carriage jump the track with a log and come barreling straight at me,  I was smart enough to have built a steel roll bar cage  around the mill husks and sawyer stand. Just to many things can go wrong and in a hurry.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 06, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Had a miserable time when I started and I am mechanically inclined if nothing else.  When you push a board through a table saw you are guiding that board. When you dog a log or cant to a carriage and power feed it through a rip saw you have no control. The saw has to be running flat and cut the wood without touching anything but the teeth. The saw plate is there to support the teeth only. Start with new teeth and have the saw going at the right rpm or a little faster. Feed a nice, clean log slowly part way in and back out and observe. The trouble may start when you pass the center of the saw. Have the guide pins not toughing the saw but just there as a safety measure. If the saw goes left or right you will see it getting closer to the guide pins and at least know what it's doing. The condition of the teeth and the lead would cause this most likely.  Circle sawmills are much more fussy than many think. If you could get an expert to come and watch he may spot the trouble. Don't embarrass yourself with dull out of square teeth if you get somebody.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 06, 2019, 07:20:57 PM
Jemmy,

what did your 55 degree and sunny test cut reveal?

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 07, 2019, 01:11:51 AM
It revealed I am more lost than I thought I was. Haha... As for being embarrassed, I have a hard time being embarrassed only when I know better. Right now I am in state of ignorance, and I will need to study how to properly remove, sharpen, reinstall, and swage. And any other aspects that need addressed in the process. I thought I would get away with not messing with it too much at the start and get at least a couple hundred brdft attempted and iron out issues with blade alignment etc, these are the initial flights. I have run maybe 20bdft through it and each time I run it something goes wrong. I just need to cut 12 4"x6"-12"s that are 36" long to lay out the track extensions. I was going to do rough cut beams on two sides so I could finish of the track. So pretty much need to cut 72 bdft. And I really only need like 6-8 beams. Butttt that seems to be more challenging than I originally thought it would be.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 07, 2019, 10:01:40 AM
Its been awhile since I've put cable on a carriage.  I do remember when my cable started to get long, it was ready to break.  But, it wasn't getting as long as yours.  It would just be losing its tautness. 

There are 2 ways of putting on cable.  Most of the older mills used a single cable.  Other mills used 2 cables, one for the front and one for the back.  The cable drive depends on friction to drive things.  Your cable should have at least 4 or 5 wraps at all times.  I always run my cables over the top of the drum.  That's because the pulley was laying horizontal on the track frame.  Some run vertical, and those would run underneath.

For the single cable system, start at either the front or rear of the carriage.  Probably best to center your carriage between the two pulleys.  If you connect to the back of the carriage, you'll go to the front pulley before you start putting wraps on the cable drum.  Pull things tight as you go along.  Then, you'll run cable to the back pulley and to the front of the carriage.  You'll then use your tighteners to pull the cable tight.  Run your carriage back and forth which will take the slack out of your cable.  Continue to tighten until your cable is taut.  That should take care of your cable. 

You need to find someone who has a mill setup similar to yours.  Get in touch with a local mill or even a local forester.  You just need to ask if they know of any circle mills in the area.  Usually, they'll be more than happy to give you a lead.  Follow up until you find one.  There are usually several in any given area.  You're about 400 miles from me, and that's a bit too far to drive.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: miro on February 08, 2019, 06:30:05 PM
Sounds like my adventure with an under powered circle mill 7 years ago.
In order of priority I found:
1) I HAD to learn how to make each and every tooth SHARP and the same height . Learning what a tooth looks like when sharp and when dull is major importance.
The best way to learn this is to file by hand  with a new file, good lights, and steady strokes. Tooth corners need to be SHARP SHARP SHARP. File only the face of each tooth.
If a tooth is too high, file the face until it is the correct height.
I made up a jig ,using a dial indicator to measure each tooth and made them all within about 0.020 inch - less than 1/32 variation.

I routinely felt the saw blade ( just after shut down) to see if it was warm - never was.

2) I had to get the engine to deliver enough power to keep the blade RPM constant ( 500 in my case) . I fussed with it until a made up a tach that I could see from the sawyer position . Ultimately I made up an electronic tach with an analog meter display  so I only had to glance at it . I found digital meter displays need too much of my attention to read them.

Eventually, the engine governor was found to be "lazy" - that is, it didn't respond well , so initially the feed was "mild" until the engine throttled up - you could tell by the sound it made. Even then, on a 15 inch log, I had to feather the feed to keep the RPM up.

3) The US Forest Service document became my toilet tank reading material - kept at it until I learned to apply to the mill, what I had read ( and thought I understood)

4) I didn't give up and , yes I found an experienced sawyer - and visited him to see how he operated and got him to explain his way of "reading" the teeth and how his mill was working.  He would sharpen after every second or third log - did it in about 6 - 7 minutes.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on February 08, 2019, 08:08:23 PM
Miro, good solid advice. I have found its best to start out with good shanks new bits and a freshly hammered saw  to reduce the variables. Everything solid, plumb and level with no play. Frank C.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Old Iron nut on February 08, 2019, 09:20:56 PM
Jemmy, If I was you I would get rid of that 2 stroke joke and get a 4 stroke motor with the right governor on it to run your mill. A friend of mine had a similar situation and he got the right governor for his 2 stroke joke and his mill started to run right. His motor was out of a truck and it did not have the right governor on it. Only thing I can see wrong on his setup is that he is standing beside the engine! Those stupid engines make more noise than one can imagine. Screaming demons. If you get one that doesn't leak oil, it is sick! That is what all my GM diesel friends say. Good luck on your venture! Old Iron nut.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on February 08, 2019, 10:32:02 PM
I can understand a small amount of stretch in a new cable, and some more for it finding the shortest running path, but I'd also check to make sure the pulleys at the ends aren't drifting or being pulled out of whatever they are running in. On a Belsaw they used a pipe for an axle across each end of the mill. I bent those with heavy logs or when I got into a bind and have noticed on others the same thing. You're basically running a winch and the snatch blocks at either end need to be firmly anchored. I was also using cheapo eyebolts at each end of the carriage and pulled a couple straight before I welded them closed. Now if I get into a bind the roll pin in the drum axle shears which is the intended weak link. I'm sure yours is set up different but maybe the same idea might apply.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 09, 2019, 08:15:55 AM
When I started drilled a hole in the end of the mandrel and jammed a speedometer cable in it that ran to a '55 chevy speedo. If memory serves, 45 mph= 600 rpm. Also had no governor, sawed with a 'string'.  Have seen 3-71s do a good job on a sawmill. Wonder if belts are slipping.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 09, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
No drilling required.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20190209_152724.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549744557)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 09, 2019, 11:42:16 PM
No belts are slipping I am going to play with the pins, gears, and cable again here soon. Talked with the previous owner so I am going to try a few things. TBC I am committed to this thing haha
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 09, 2019, 11:59:54 PM
I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 10, 2019, 04:11:55 PM
I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Worth a try, slow feed in knots or cross grain. Of course you can't just take out teeth or the saw will curl. Have to blunt or have every other tooth short. I have seen old solid tooth saws with every other tooth sawed off, must have been sawing with a fordson.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 10, 2019, 06:53:15 PM
The problem with using a skip tooth method is that you have half the gullet space for dust.  That means you have to slow your feed down or you'll hang the saw.  Hanging the saw puts a lot of stress around the eye of the saw, and you'll need to get it hammered.  Probably okay for a hobby operation.  But, its just putting a band aid on the problem.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 10, 2019, 08:23:58 PM
Ditto.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 10, 2019, 08:27:40 PM
Hanging a saw is an experience. I can almost guarantee if it happens to you, the first words out of your mouth will be "what the he....!"
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 10, 2019, 09:44:09 PM
The experience that I had was we had worked on this mill for about a week every day , checked first to make sure everything was level ,made sure the lead was right bought a brand new jockey grinder and stellite teeth ,messed with the governor did’nt help because the saw was underpowered when I would start into a cut I would have to really watch my feed speed because the motor couldn’t keep up. Not after remove every second tooth I would cut on average a tandem load a day, the only other thing that made a difference was in big spruce we would try to saw from the butt end which was new to me as before that I never paid attention. I’m just a sawyer not a millright but a fella does learn a few things along the way.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 10, 2019, 10:02:53 PM
The only other thing I want to add is I was a somewhat experienced sawmill operator hired to resurrect this moth balled butchered mill and when I couldn’t get it to work I reached out to older more experienced ones and they saved my job and reputation,I didn’t know about the forestry forum or it may not have been around then 1998 but it was the same type of experience so reach out to your    closest saw filer and ask that’s what I did .
                                                    All the best Terry Ferris 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ianab on February 11, 2019, 04:25:33 AM
Reducing the number of teeth should allow you to cut better, at a reduced speed. 

The problem is that each time a tooth bites in it has to cut though all the wood fibres in it's path. Now whether it bites in 1/32" or 1/16", the load on the saw is similar.  So slowing down the feed doesn't help as much as you might think. 

Now if the saw has less teeth, you can keep up the 1/16" feed rate per cut, which will only be 1/2 the speed of a full comp saw with heaps of power.

Same way a swing blade mill with only 4 - 6 teeth can cut OK, and throw decent chips (not dust). Because each cutter on the blade needs 2-3 HP to keep it working properly,. So 6 cutters on my mill with 13 hp works. 50 teeth on a circle blade, then you want 100+ HP pushing it. Drop it back to only 25  teeth, and 50 hp should drive it, but at 1/2 the feed speed. Each tooth is taking a proper bite, throwing out chips etc.  But you have to watch that feed speed, and not stall the saw.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: sharp edge on February 11, 2019, 06:33:36 AM
Start with cutting 8"-10" white pine logs, then work your way up. The knots are even soft in white pine. 
That board you cut would be hard to do on a good mill.

SE
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 12, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
Jemmy

did you figure out what pattern you're saw is?
How many teeth?

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 12, 2019, 09:11:45 PM
I can get some photos from things Ive cut along with over all photos, I believe the motor has at least 100hp, and I was told that it had plenty of power but I could be wrong, Im fine with switching out motors. But I dont think thats the issue as of right now. Im gonna start with the teeth, blade alignment etc, leveling, etc then try and cut next. I got a decent list going now. And I am in school full time till may but i want to be producing something in 2 weeks or less, and by 3 months have things decently fluid.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 12, 2019, 09:47:59 PM
Circle sawmilling is a science, it is an art, and it is witchcraft.  You need to get the science part straight first.  You will get no where unless you procedurally go through the setup and alignment of the mill, the power and transfer of power to the mill, and the blade and teeth. All of these have to be correct to run a circle sawmill.   Go at it halfassed and try and skip the important stuff and you are destined to fail.  Once we get past the science stage, we can then help you with the art and then the witchcraft stages.  :D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 14, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
Update:

I have a lot of irons in the fire and this thing has been on the back burner of the rotation, I've compiled easily about 24hrs of work to do before I do any test cuts. Currently I am in school full time, 500 egg laying chickens to tend to, a full time job, and many other projects inherent to a farm, sawmill, business, or being a student. (designing and building 3 buildings and one property development to name a few of the projects I am dealing with) I have exams and homework for the next month and my egg layers will start giving me eggs. I've got welding, cable issues, and overall assembly/building to do. I have been researching, and talking with people when I can. I am going to knock out the projects and eliminate many issues before running. But it is going to take time and things aren't very straight forward. Like I have to run 400 feet of extension chords for a welder and level everything out. Well I have not given up on this project, it is just apart of many other projects. I think I am going to do a cheap band saw mod, but before I do that I am going to mess with this thing. A lot to be done, but I am busy, and hopefully it all works out in a timely fashion. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on May 25, 2019, 10:42:29 AM

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/18010089_1532303710127356_8322040791682570763_n5B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1553948411)
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on May 25, 2019, 11:47:03 AM
You have learned well what the joys of owning a older circle mill is like.  More like restoring an antique tractor painting it and looking at it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on May 25, 2019, 12:06:23 PM
Just hang in there it will get there. Where are you located?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 30, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
What Jeff said about circular sawmilling hit the nail on the head, that should be carved in stone. Handset circular mills are the great equalizer a hill Billy has as much of a chance as a PhD engineer to have a good running mill. Small adjustments mean a lot, any shortcuts taken will be back to bite you. There is such a thing as over engineering you need to feel what the saw is doing and treat it like a trophy wife. Frank C. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on June 03, 2019, 09:34:57 AM
Yes I agree fully a mill is like a women. Remember their mood can change very quickly.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on June 05, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Update:

Thank you all for the support and words of wisdom. This project has been humbling. Thankfully I have had some recent success with my slabbing build. Its been in the shop for a year and I just completed my first cut. I finished in the dark, but I finished it. There is about 3 more solid days of fabrication and then that unit should be ready for action. Just need to build, configure, figure, a rail system. But I am happy with this projects latest developments and had to share. I will be starting a separate thread for it soon.

Chickens are starting to lay, I am working 60-80hrs a week as an irrigation foreman, the weather has been tough and the chickens have been a handful, but I swear I will complete this mill project. This weekend I believe I will be attacking the many nick-nacky issues that have been bothering me about the mill and hopefully by the end of the weekend I will be much closer to firing up the motor. I cant begin to put a time table to things for this mill but I am persistent and baring some cataclysmic event this saw will run. 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61768004_692030194560293_4105394375926743040_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791641)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61676715_399714883954201_5958483085510049792_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791635)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61847890_2351351791821044_2237521688830935040_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791518)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792719)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792706)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792699)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792804)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on June 28, 2019, 10:58:18 PM

Jemmy. Where are you located? I travel alot and may be able to come by and give you a hand with your circle saw of problems, I have been through it the last four years sawing with my frick, everything down to pouring the Babbitt mandrel bearings, and shimming the saw with paper, if your close to somewhere I may be I would be glad to swing by and lend a hand.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on June 29, 2019, 09:10:59 AM

Jemmy. Where are you located? I travel alot and may be able to come by and give you a hand with your circle saw of problems, I have been through it the last four years sawing with my frick, everything down to pouring the Babbitt mandrel bearings, and shimming the saw with paper, if your close to somewhere I may be I would be glad to swing by and lend a hand.
                      And I thought I was good.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on June 29, 2019, 12:01:58 PM
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::). 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 30, 2019, 05:56:37 AM
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on July 01, 2019, 08:27:26 PM
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Yep Collars needed turning, I made a jig and turned them myself, but the paper is a really good diagnostic tool or to buy some time and cheap too.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on July 01, 2019, 08:36:07 PM
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::).
I am headed to Salt lake City,UT in October for a Business/Pleasure trip my shortest route from Northern,VA is through northern Ohio, If you dont get it strait by then I could stop by, if your worried about what it looks like you should see my mill :D 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 25, 2019, 07:12:25 PM
Update:
Well I need to walk the tracks, set the cart back down retention the cable one more time (haha) and sharpen my teeth then I believe I am to the point of starting the motor up. (I think) I replaced the cable. There was all kinds of problems with it before, so I hope that the replacement works as it should. That is the one part of the mill that I think I desire to operate flawlessly and any amount of doubt in that cable freaks me out. Today I secured the tracks sections that I finished a fair bit of fabrication on. I probably have one solid day of fabrication left. More of a much needed maintenance day, nothing technically needs done I believe. God has been kind here and allowed us to finish our roof and seemingly any major operations that need to happen to this mill. Its funny this has been the best weather we have had all year to get things done. There are a million fires in my life but atleast we have a roof and this mill will be to a point where it can be nailed down. I have made the decision to get a band mill. Dont know what kind I will be going with quite yet, i imagine most of you have seen both of these threads...

Questions:
1) Should I pull the teeth, or file/attempt to sharpen in place? They are currently kroiled and awaiting the adolescent ape named John to yank them out. 
2) Should I set the blade guide while running? Best/safest practice of doing this activity?
3) What is the best style of reading RPMs? I tried the laser RPM readers, two different kinds on multiple surfaces, they didnt work. They gave me crazy readings, maybe Im the crazy one, but it was suspect jumping from 200-1200 in a split second with no constant readings. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on December 25, 2019, 08:52:51 PM
If you are running with an engine idle it with the saw turning and slowly speed up until the saw runs flat. That speed plus a little is where the saw has to run. I you go too far beyond this speed the saw will act up. A hand held rubber tip tach pushed in the shaft center is a good way to read the rpm. You never take the teeth out of the saw except to change them one at a time. The same with shanks.     Keep the guide pins [or blocks] about 1/8" away from the saw to begin with. After you get the saw behaving and sawing straight try to run them as close but not touching as you can.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 28, 2019, 10:27:54 AM
Moodnacreek, thank you! I found a nice digital display impact tach instantly upon some googling and now I know how I will be able to at least get reliable readings off the blade!!!! Thank you!!!! Well I will need to order that tach, but atleast today I can knock out of a few things. Im gonna weld, try and watch the blade stand up move the cart, and then I think I am going to weld for a while or start building a box around the pto. Also how should I attach a nob to hit gauge? Should it be a welded little nob like a spot weld or is there something that comes in the kit like the laser rpm gauges? Or jb weld/composite? 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on December 28, 2019, 10:50:46 AM
The tach gauges that I have used usually have an assortment of different shaped rubber tips to make contact with the end of the shaft being measured. The best being a v point that fits in a center drilled hole.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Magicman on December 28, 2019, 12:25:07 PM
Hold the tach tightly and proceed slowly as you make contact with the moving shaft.  Otherwise it will snatch it out of your hands and do bad things.  :-X
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 29, 2019, 03:57:01 AM
Update:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/Storm.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1577606818)


I was hoping to just do some routine preliminary check ups (fluids) after setting the cart back down getting a lot of testing in on the blade/cart. Murphy's law reared its head a few times. The battery was dead, and it was touchy on getting it to roll over, even after pulling a f350 7.3.  Once it was fired up and warm we put it into gear and brought the cart back and forth a few times watching the cable system intently. There was a spot on the cart that was rubbing on the center threads of the blade that I ground down and thankfully it did not catch any more once it was under power. I spent a long time clearing the track, going through my head a million times just trying to make progress and making sure that the cart could make it down the tracks the tracks and nothing bad happen. Little things like tightening the cable system that last little bit or the tooth that i just put in for the first time. I yanked one successfully, then some were tough as heck and i stopped after I messed up a tool a little bit. But I got one out and put it down and kroiled the rest and I am gonna wait then prolly pull and sharpen them all eventually if not very soon. I have a 2x6 just to see whats going on once I figure out RPMs. 

Murphy's law kicked in immediately as I shook one piece of track and it shook loose then broke off in my hand. This happened around 11:30am. I set in and ground for a solid hour and half, welded for an hour or so just getting things tacked/slightly secured, started the Detroit, ran the cart welded 3hrs, sprayed the welds with rustoluem.  They had like 3 hours to dry should be getting an inch of rain. Feels good to be done with the ridiculous amount of welding that was duly needed on the mill and I got down a protective layer to boot. All things considered and the hoops jumped through it was a successful day that should allow this thing to start narrowing down the issues. I measured the distance from the face of the part of the cart the caries the log that established the thickness of the cut and that varied by a 1/4" across a 13ft span. 

Questions:

1) The distance from the teeth in the blade and the head block face is variant by 1/4" across the cart, will that mess up the lead, how to fix if so? Could this be the thing bogging my motor down? My idea is to weld a 1/4" steel plate to it. Bad idea?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 29, 2019, 04:03:38 AM
The tach gauges that I have used usually have an assortment of different shaped rubber tips to make contact with the end of the shaft being measured. The best being a v point that fits in a center drilled hole.
I do not understand how this would work. I understand something that that flicks something, like a nob, but how does one do what you are speaking about? Best practices? Im going to get a digital RPM impact gauge that will be pricey but worth the pain of knowing my RPMs, just need to understand what I need to do in order to prep for this gauge, and how I could also tack my Detroit too while I, at it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on December 29, 2019, 09:20:38 AM
You can also put a magnetic tach on the mandrel shaft, something like one of these;
Hall Effect Tach (https://www.amazon.com/DIGITEN-Digital-Tachometer-Proximity-Switch/dp/B00VKAT8A2/ref=asc_df_B00VKAT8A2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312050280935&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5598548816998415696&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9059750&hvtargid=pla-569951226433&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61716360643&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312050280935&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5598548816998415696&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9059750&hvtargid=pla-569951226433)

Your "cart" is the carriage, it sounds like the headblocks are not in line. Look to see if there is an adjustment, if not tacking a shim on the face will work.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on December 29, 2019, 12:30:51 PM
This is an example of a hand held tach with the rubber tip held against the shaft.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/54791/th.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1577640593)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on December 29, 2019, 04:06:13 PM
This is not the best picture but you can see the shaft that connects the three headblocks. It is a three piece shaft connected by discs with slotted holes. The bolts in the couplings can be loosened and each individual shaft rotated to bring each headblock in line. By stretching a string or wire the length of the carriage across the face of each headblock it is easy to see what movement needs
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/54791/sawmill_00084.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1577653515)
 to take place. Backlash in the gears should also be accounted for. 1/4 inch variance you describe is too much. Varience can also come from the tracks not straight or wheels on the carriage loose.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on December 30, 2019, 10:51:12 AM
I've used a tach to give me my RPM on my shaft at the sawblade.  I've also used the digital photo laser tach that can measure at anytime, even sawing.  All the power units I've used had a tach built in or were run with a stop on the throttle.  That should set your running speed.  Most older mills had a saw speed 540 RPM.  

As for sawing, the best tach I used was my ear.  I could tell when my saw was running too slow or too fast by the sound of the saw in the wood.  As the saw speed drops during cutting, you'll want to back off in your cut.  Feeding too fast will cause a bunch of problems.  

What I'm reading is your headblocks don't line up quite right.  Depending on your mill, there may be different remedies.  As posted, some have ways to rotate the shaft a bit.  Make sure you loosen up all the shafts before adjusting.  Some headblocks have bolts on the top that can be loosened for the adjustment.  There may be some additional adjustment to make at the back end of the headblock.  All depends on the mfg.

To line up your headblocks, measure each headblock to the saw at the saw guide.  Adjust all to the same measurement and they should be in alignment.  The only thing that would make any difference is if the track isn't straight or if your trucks are loose or worn.  A crooked track will cause your headblocks to be out of alignment and cause the carriage to move in or out from the saw.  Loose or worn trucks may cause movement in the carriage.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on January 20, 2020, 05:10:28 PM
Progress was made. That is all I can ask for. The previous owner did me the solid of coming to visit for the day. My RPM issues are no more. I now know how to make adjustments under full power. Thankfully the other laser RPM gauge in conjunction with new reflector strips allowed me to acquire constant and reliable readings. There is plenttyyyy of power in that screamer, I just need to make it really sing. I know which gear to use, (up and to the left) supposedly first. I put together how to move the head block before re-reading this thread.  I was then able to comprehend luap's post and thankfully I had that idea "all on my own". I believe the head block is off by one tooth. 

The biggest part of what I learned is setting the lead and overall setting of the saw/cart dynamic so the log can enter and move accordingly about. 

Setting the lead and the guides has been the biggest curve for me. The head block alignment issue feels as though it has contributed to this issue. The headblock that is recessed a tooth is in the middle. When the previous owner was here I had a log that stretched across all three headblock, thus avoiding the spacing issue of the center headblock being spaced back a tooth. The mill cut very good and everything seemed as though it should. After the previous owner left I wanted to try some and get through a decent log to start on my chicken house. It was about 20" across and 10' long. The first two cuts went ok, but the saw didnt seem like it reacted flawlessly. The third cut was something of nightmares. I couldnt tell if the saw, saw deck, or carriage/log was hopping, but something was moving in a direction that didnt not seem appropriate. The saw didnt start acting goofy until about halfway though the log, just before the headblock that is recessed. What is the appropriate action in this situation? Do you finish the cut? Or immediately pull back? My thought is/was finish the cut. So as the carriage proceeded down the tracks it began to slow, so I responded by pulling more on the lever. I ended up burying the lever in order to finish the cut, (please refrain from insults if this is insane, trust me this stuff feels alien currently and Im genuinely trying)... The cut finished and I wouldnt be surprised if my blade of some belt(s) arent as well. After the the cut I shut it down. I knew something was wrong. Im not a foreigner to that feeling. Metal deposits on the log thick enough to stick a refrigerator magnet to for over 2/3 of the log and the guide on the cupped side of the blade pushed in (or burned off i have no idea) a half inch. 

I havent checked the lead yet. But I assume that it is off. My theory is that that the headblock being recessed caused this mishap and once I fix it I should be able to able to set the lead and guides and be cutting again. As long as the blade is not ruined. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/83968431_217538935926785_5971138241007452160_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579558167)
 

What size collar do I need for 56" blade? Is this what is causing this issue? Etc

Why do collars need turned? What does turning do? Just balancing? Like balancing a tire with those weights? Or more along the lines of tolerances like thickness and what not?

All the photos I took in preparation for this post I lost and I have put off this post for a while so I am just getting what I can down for now. So I dont have photos of the lead setter (dont know what the technical term is for it) but my concern is how is it how is the blade secured if at all to the frame? It seems like two pieces of all thread are not adequate fasteners for this job.

Is a key way necessary for safety? I do not wish to die, but I dont want to undergo some large project for something that is not likely to ever be needed and some would argue not necessary. 

Should I weld on a knife behind the blade? (Dont know the technical term for that either)
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on January 20, 2020, 06:54:20 PM
You rubbed the saw body. You can't do that. It would be best if you could get an experienced  sawyer to come over a few times and guide you through the learning process. There are several things that would cause that one being the log springing. The center headblock and it's dog are important here because they will show you the spring. By taking a slab and 2 board off 1 side most hardwood logs will spring. The heart wants to be centered as much as possible while the log is being sawn. This can mean turning 180 after each board is sawn off. Try to get someone to show you if possible. And the teeth need to be about perfect all the time.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on January 21, 2020, 01:17:47 PM
Spring may be part of the problem, but if you're lead is off, you won't cut for very long.  Your saw got hot and laid over.  It opened up the eye and it got hot at the eye.  Worst place for heat as your saw loses the ability to stand up.  

Many factors at play.  Are the teeth okay?  If you're not careful, you can actually file lead into or out of a saw by having an angle across the front of the tooth.  Your saw will lead towards the long side of the tooth.  Dull teeth can also cause the same problem, especially if your feed speed is too fast.  Frozen logs or especially partially frozen logs can be a real problem with sawing.  Did you have sawdust cake to the side of the log?  I'm assuming that your saw is hammered for the RPM that you are running.  

The headblock being out of align is not a problem if it doesn't move.  Out of align headblocks will show the problem in the dog board or blocking.  It will be heavier at one end.  If your headblock is moving while the saw is in the log, then you will have problems.  I'm assuming that your track is straight.  If you have a hook in your track where you're carriage is running in an arc, you will have a bunch of problems.  Worn shanks can also cause sawdust to spill out of the gullets and between the saw and the log, causing the saw to heat up.  

It's not our style on the Forum to hurl insults at anyone.  You're looking for guidance and we're here to help.  I've set up several mills and sawed for 35 yrs.  I've had saws do the same thing as you have shown, more than once.  Things that I do to troubleshoot is to put new teeth in the saw.  That eliminates all problems arising from poorly sharpened teeth.  I check the lead.  You use the same tooth and the same headblock to measure front and back of the saw.  Saw guides should be loose so as not to push the saw.  Saw guide side should be less that board splitter side.  Otherwise you'll be running your log into the saw, and that heats it up.  

I always start with small logs to test things out.  You'll learn saw feed speed as you go.  Most guys saw a bit slower in larger logs.  If you saw too fast, your gullets will load up with too much sawdust.  That can push your saw off line.  When you get too much sawdust in the gullets, your saw will stop dead.  That's called a hung saw.  You have to shut down power ASAP.  

Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on January 22, 2020, 12:40:23 PM
 When your saw moves off line and is rubbing, stop don't force it through. Check your lead since you said you had new teeth. No two saws will have the same lead. Not sure what you are referring to about the threaded rod holding the saw shaft. I assume each bearing will have a jack bolt on each side. Use both bearings to adjust . Picture the saw mandrel on a pivot centered between the bearings Don't just loosen the bearings and start pushing with the jack bolts. turn the jack bolts snug to the bearing bases and then loosen bearing hold down bolts.  Loosen the jack bolt on the side you want it to move to. This way its a controlled move in small increments. Even if you have self aligning bearings move both bearings, not just the one next to the saw. Turning the saw collars refers to truing up any runout the hub
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/54791/bearing_lead_adjustment1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579650897)
 may have. Your saw collar should match the od of the saw hub on the mandrel . These are made with a shrink fit to the shaft so the only keyway will be on the pulley end.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on January 22, 2020, 08:01:18 PM
A good tool to have when setting up a mill is one of those infrared thermometers. Now I am not a gadget man [never bought a cell phone yet] but this is a must have item. After the saw has run, even in the air, check the saw bearing temp. As this bearing warms the center of the saw may follow and you can see how much and how long it takes. Check both sides, out near the guide line where it would be really cold. The difference between the center [at the collars] and out near the guide line tells the story. A difference of say 4 degrees can swell the saw center enough to set up a wobble or worse. A little too much grease or sun light on the saw can do the same thing. The mandrel is everything with the circle sawmill. Heat or rather warmth you can't feel by hand will drive you crazy.  Saws have lumps in them that someone has hammered flat. Every time you rub that spot they swell back out a very tiny bit. Sometimes you have to slow down the saw to get less bearing heat. [if the saw will take it]  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 10, 2020, 02:11:27 AM
I have begun chunking out CSTEO, that is how I will be referencing the hand book Circle Sawmills and Their Efficient Operation from now on, and learning a lot. I am through most of the meat of it, and I have skimmed through everything. I am about half way through reading it in depth, with hopes of finishing it this week. From what it seems like from your guys replies is that I was too ambitious with my log. I should try to eliminate every single issue and then run the saw in an ideal fashion. There is no “partially running” saw, everything should be as close to ideal as possible. And start with a small log. 

Moondacreek, I have 3 of those laser thermometers. I totally forgot how useful they would be in this application. Next time I fire it up I will check the bearing and the plate as you have suggested. It makes sense that this difference in temperatures would cause problems. However, I had no idea thermodynamics would be a potential avenue of problems and something that would have to be combatted. Especially when we are talking about a difference of 4 degrees which seems to be very small. But I imagine those 4 degrees play a much larger role when discussing a 52” wide metal plate that is rotated at a high rate of speed. 

I believe my track is straight, there was not sawdust getting frozen to log when this happened. 

What is the best grinder/sharpener? I saw what looks like an electric powered sharpener for teeth while they are still installed. Sources for such sharpeners? I currently have a hand powered one that can be mounted on the blade and used to sharpen teeth in place. I have to free up some moving parts because I did not store it properly. Should I buy the electric one, or stick with my manual one that I have currently?


So if things seem to be off with a cut, I should always bring the carriage back?

The blade seemed to have deposited the iron from the central area of the plate. There are seemingly large gashes. Thoughts, do I have another start to a sign? Or is the plate ok? Can I measure/check my own fall away (tension) in the saw? The saw is supposed to run at 640 RPM so should it stay flat to the log side? Because in CSTEO, it says “Saws that run at a speed of 650 r.p.m. or less should remain flat on the log side when mounted on the arbor and when stationary.” The previous owner thought (admitted he didn't know for sure) that it was tensioned appropriately after placing a flat edge across the non log side (currently I don't know the technical expression for that side of the blade). 

Currently, do not have one, so is a splitter a high priority? 

I did not understand the technique that CSTEO used to test for a sprung arbor vs a sprung saw. How often do arbors become sprung? Are there any breakdowns of every piece of a sawmill with every synonym? Because what is actually considered the arbor? Is it the whole shaft assembly from where it enters the sawmill after the conversion from the transmission? Or is it from the arbor bearing/set screws out? I have down some vocab but it would be nice to be able to discuss every little piece of the sawmill and know with confidence that I am referencing each correct piece/thing/orientation/etc. 

I do not know how many hours I have spent researching, typing, and reading, yet, I still feel as though the light at the end of the tunnel is still very far off. I feel like I should live with one of you guys for a week if someone would be willing to trade knowledge and a place to stay for my  labor, heck I’ll even sleep in a tent, I don't care. I need to get through this curve or just buy a band mill like have been saying for a very long time. I hope this all makes sense and I didnt forget to mention any topics.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 10, 2020, 08:17:56 AM
Wow, you are really into it and that's the only way, so many give up. That book is the best and I glad you got it. Ron W. may chime in here, He has more experience than me. The saw plate must be clean/flat right where the collars grip it for sure. The teeth filed straight across and with equal swage on both sides, big deal. With good collars and a cold saw bearing, nothing bent, the mill will run if the saw is ok and the speed is steady. The drive pins should not be notched from a saw wreck that by the way can bend the threaded end of the mandrel. A sudden stop in the log is like hitting a big tree with your car and bending the frame a little and not knowing it. And then things are never quite right. That hand crank rotary file is good.  Need parts for that? P.M. me.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 10, 2020, 10:31:18 AM
How many bearings on your arbor?  I've seen a bunch of old mills with 3.  When setting lead, you have to loosen your adjustment bolts on the middle bearing.  Set your lead by using either the front or rear bearing, then retighten the middle bearing.  If you don't do that, you'll be putting some spring into your arbor.  Not to mention you'll heat up your bearings.  

Easy check for your collars is to put chalk or lumber crayon around the rim.  Put onto your saw.  Take it off and see if you have any gaps in the chalk mark on the saw.  If you do, your collars need to be turned.  

Don't overtighten your saw nut.  If you do, you'll smash your collars and they won't work as engineered.  

I had 2 different electric grinders.  One was a Jockey grinder that I used on the big saw.  I had an Andrus to sharpen my edger saws.  Jones also makes a sharpener.  Any saw shop should have one.  Jones is the cheapest.  These will give you a consistent tooth angle for each tooth.  It attaches to the saw.  I used to machine sharpen to maintain angle, then hand file to get a better edge.

You should have a board splitter.  In most cases, you don't need one.  But, if a piece bends back onto the saw or the saw cut collapses, you'll pinch the saw.  This can especially happen when you're splitting large pieces.  The two types I've seen are a round one and a bar type.  I've preferred the bar since they can extend much higher than the round one.  But, when sawing you still have to keep an eye on the splitter.  If a piece gets between the splitter and the log, you'll have a piece come flying back at you at a high speed.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 11, 2020, 04:31:43 PM
Moondacreek I want to quit, but I havent had the option since 3 cement trucks showed up on my property and monolithically poured 25 yards of concrete 36” deep over top of an interconnected web of  ¾” rebar. If I could turn back the clock I would slap myself and get a bandmill. The foundation is not going anywhere so neither is that saw. I am committed. I knew I would have to get wet for this project, I just didn't know I would be strapping on the scuba gear and going DEEP! Thank you Ron as always for the help. I don't know how to answer your question because I do not know what is actually considered the “arbor” I get that it is the drive shaft for the blade, but I do not know where it starts and ends, that's why I mentioned the total schematic of a circle mill so I can properly identify parts for these discussions. I am still working on CSTEO.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 11, 2020, 05:13:10 PM
"The intense heat that develops when a saw hangs and the arbor and fast collar continue to turn against the jammed saw may seriously damage the collars by warping them. When this happens, the nut is tightened with all the force and inertia of the power unit and pulley system and frequently presses all concavity out of the collars. Resulting friction rapidly turns to heat even when it lasts for only a second or two. The heat may become so intense that it melts the metal and ruins the collars or the saw or both."

GEEEEEZZZZZZZZZ this is WILD, you guys definitely under sold the whole "Dont hang your saw" advice. This is what nightmares are made of. And since I have a direct drive, if i were to hang the saw, what kind of chaos is expected? Will the drive shaft shred? Will the pins shear? BOTH?

And I stopped reading right before it discussed the chalk test. Pretty simple, thanks again Ron.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 11, 2020, 05:44:05 PM
I finished CSTEO. Now its time to do a bunch of leveling and inspection of the sawmill. I probably have one solid day of working through many of these. How will I know if my saw is junk? I took some serious material off of it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 11, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
The shaft that the saw goes on is the mandrel. On the other end would be the drive pulley [or driven as the one on the engine is the driver] This mandrel is in bearings that mount on the husk [frame].   As you have herd the mandrel is everything on a sawmill. The saw blade is a temperamental  thing for sure and expensive but only one nut holds it on. It is almost impossible to get a beginner to see the little things that must be. A circle saw spinning and sawing looks so simple, like only one moving part. Not the case at all. If you get that mill level and straight on that big pour and nobody can make it go, even with a different saw, worst case is a new mandrel and bearings. I you ever get to this point don't use a regular machine shop. To have a mandrel made [or repaired you have to go to a sawmill shop that does this kind of work. Trust me, I have done all this before both ways, right and wrong and paid for both. That book you are using is very good but it is all the first time for you. When I started I could not saw 2 board without heating the saw. This went on for months. Made many trips to other mills to watch and ask. Problem was I couldn't ask the right Questions. I know where you are . [and it is too far for me to come help]  You know people who don't struggle don't learn,     Doug
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 13, 2020, 09:48:54 AM
Moondacreek, this is not good news to me. I was really hoping this would be something that could be conquered in a matter of few days not a few months to a year. I dont doubt this time table at all, because it has taken me years to get to this point, I could see it being a few more before I am cutting efficiently. And I do not think this is a simple mechanism. I see a million parts all working together (or lack there of), and when it comes to the dynamics of the blade I might as well be learning another language. I guess I will keep tinkering away, refining and posting here. I have plenty of things to try before running the mill again and I am now busy with school and a full time job. A bandmill has now moved to the top priority i believe. I would love to avoid spending money on a band mill but if my time table is now months to a year I think a bandmill is wise. I have a lot of wood that is beginning to degrade. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 13, 2020, 10:45:18 AM
It makes no difference what type of mill you have, there is a learning curve.  It sounds like you've gotten this far, but are having problems with the fine tuning of being able to cut lumber without having your saw heat up.  I've always found that circle mills can take a lot of abuse, and be off somewhat, and still be able to produce decent lumber.  

There is a skill level that has to be developed on any type of mill.  Feed rate is a big deal on all mills.  There are technical standpoints and practical standpoints.  Technical are the ones that are theoretically achievable.  Practical ones that come from experience.  The technical one may state that you can just blast through a log and everything will be great.  The practical side is that depends.  Your skill level increases as you find out the variables that the technical side doesn't cover.  

With the problems that you seem to be having, I'd start to put more lead into your saw.  If you're not running enough lead, you'll heat up a saw.  I'm sure you read somewhere that lead should be something like 1/16" or 1/8".  Technically that may be right.  But, to run that particular mill, I needed 3/8" of lead.  Practical wins.  And lead need can change with weather conditions, saws, and other conditions.  If you don't have enough lead, your saw will lead out and heat up your saw.  If you have too much lead, you will lead into the log and your board thickness will vary from front to back, with the back being heavier.  Its a pain to get the lead just right, but when you do that, it should not be a problem for a long time.  We adjusted lead maybe once or twice a year, usually when we changed saws.

Make sure you're measuring your lead right.  Loosen the saw guides.  Measure from one tooth to the headblock at the front of the husk.  I always would run my headblock to an even inch, like 12".  Mark that tooth.  Rotate the saw to the back of the husk so you can measure to the same headblock to the same tooth.  You now want that distance to be a bit farther away.  Subtract front number from back number to get your lead.  Readjust your saw guides.  See how that works.  If your saw guides are too tight on one side, it will have the effect of pushing lead in or out.  Not what you want.  Just a bit of daylight on each side of a running saw.  It might take a bit of time to get used to adjusting it.  

Don't worry too much about welding the nut onto the mandrel (same as the arbor).  I've done that one time in several million cuts in my career.  Something else happened that caused that saw accident.  We ended up cutting the nut off.  

Hanging a saw comes from having loose belts or feeding too fast for conditions.  2 things you need to do to increase your skill level.  Listening to your saw is a big deal.  Whenever I walk into a mill, I can tell if a sawyer is crowding his saw or working with his saw, just by the sound.  You'll want to have a consistent sound or tone, all the way through the cut.  If the sound changes, your saw is bogging down.  Poor saw performance can cause your saw to cut off line as the RPM level goes down.  As your skill level increases, you'll get better at figuring out when you need to slow down and when you can speed up.  

The other thing to watch is your saw in the cut.  You'll be able to tell if it's going off line.  If it is, don't continue cutting like that.  Its not good for the saw, and you'll just have lumber you won't be please with.

To test any mill, I always used small, short logs.  Things are a lot less forgiving with the small ones.  Pine is also pretty forgiving.  I always used new teeth to take away any problems of tooth maintenance.  

One thing I found about skill levels.  There isn't a straight line in improvement.  They come in stages.  You'll see that you'll have a lot of plateaus on the way up.  You'll think you're not getting any better, then all of a sudden it goes to the next level.  Be patient.  You'll get there.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on February 13, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
This is why bandmills are so popular, all that mass of metal, muscle, and horsepower on a circle mill to move a log down a track into a spinning blade vs. stationary log being cut by a little bitty band by a itty bitty motor pushed by a person or a itty bitty dc motor.  If you are a hobbyist they have your model, if you want production, they got you covered also.  Every one that I ever saw buying an old circle mill including me spends years getting them set up and running right when all they want to do is start sawing lumber.  In the end I lost money or broke even and realized why most of these saws are sitting or in scrap heaps.  If you like to restore old engines, tractors, and anything old iron a circle peckerwood sawmill will be right up your alley if you want to start cutting wood spend your limited funds on a bandmill.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: thecfarm on February 13, 2020, 10:51:05 AM
If I ever do a circle saw, I want Ron in my corner.   ;) 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 13, 2020, 11:01:30 AM
Whenever I walk into a mill, I can tell if a sawyer is crowding his saw or working with his saw, just by the sound.


I miss that sound:(

On any given day, Ron or I could go into the mill, having had an uneventful day before, and find a saw that refused to cutm but we would struggle through and find the special sauce to make it sing. If he tells you different, well, it's because he is old.:D  Look at the troubleshooting portion in the Lunstrum book.

When a saw isn't cutting right, you start ruling stuff out.  When you are first starting out you won't know what to rule out first, that is why you need to start with the equipment. Make sure it is right. Don't take short cuts trying to guess what the next thing to try is. You will get to do that soon enough when you get to days like I mentioned in the any given day sentence.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 13, 2020, 01:29:53 PM
Try this; get that saw plumb [husk level all ways] Set lead 1/8", same tooth, same head block. Have new or like new teeth in saw. Start up, saw not wobbling. Stand there and study that running saw. Now with eye protection and small , short pine log, sight down on saw line and feed carriage in [log into saw] about 20 " and back out. Study everything. Go deeper next time back up, look for rub marks on log [break slab off to look]. The saw plate must not touch log and the saw not loose speed and wobble because that will make it touch.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on February 13, 2020, 02:22:03 PM
The first blade I ran on my mill, I gradually increased the lead until it was 1/4" and finally could cut without rubbing and heating the saw. I thought that was a lot at the time but that was what it took to make it work.  I finally bought a refurbished blade from Menominee saw and got a handle on improving my sawing. Your new solid foundation will go a long ways in eliminating other problems. I was fortunate to have made the acquaintance of two experienced sawyers that  helped me tremendously. One of whom told me later that at the time he doubted I was going to figure it out. To his credit He never told me that or discouraged me. No FF, no internet available then, 1970's. No small bandsaws either.  So don't give up. You are going to get there.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 13, 2020, 07:46:15 PM
Old saying: you can't beat a man who won't quit.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 03, 2020, 09:01:30 PM
Where do I find gauges to check my angle on the teeth? I have a mechanical sharpener, it has taken me two hours to get half way around the saw, should this be taking me less time? I have a lot more to ask about sharpening teeth. But lets start there. I do have a new box of teeth to compare to, but it is difficult to compare, especially since we are talking about a change of on only a few degrees seems to matter a whole lot from reading CSTEO
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 03, 2020, 09:15:17 PM
2 hours? Man what are you doing?  Put in the new teeth with oil and center the shanks. If the saw will not run flat [in the air] don't even try to saw. To repeat myself; try to find an old time sawmill man to help you.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 04, 2020, 02:53:43 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/92247392_661046938060266_1708139537642815488_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1585983166)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 04, 2020, 04:03:07 AM
Well I dont know I guess. I dont know if there is a way to secure a drill to this so it will go real quick. But tomorrows plans are to level it out and get the teeth as close to perfect as possible. I have a box of new teeth, but I do not know if I am there yet. I thought I would try and learn how to become efficient/proficient at sharpening. I can easily pull teeth and set them back in (I believe) but I figured if the teeth were somewhat ok I could use them while I am learning to set the mill up, I can post photos of them too if you would like to see them. I believe I can rig that sharpener to be very efficient and solve my tooth sharpening issue, I would just like to know my angles, it seems to be a pretty much the most important part besides making sure the tooth is symmetrical, sharpened on one face, and swaged properly so the plate can clear, I am most concerned with the angle, my eye isnt that great, and a gauge would be fantastic to solve that issue. I feel like I could even pull all the teeth relatively quickly, seems like I could pull them in about 10 minutes I figure, and I dont know how long to reset them. The original owner has a bench grinder rig specifically made for sawmill teeth, dont know if this a big old pain and if I can rig my sharpener with a drill (the one from the photo above) then I avoid all that mess of pulling the teeth, I still need a gauge though. My collar is too small as well for this blade, its suppose to be 7" but I believe its 5+" I will remeasure tomorrow. But the original owner was running that collar with that plate and claimed to have no issues. I feel like this along with many other issues could be slowly upgraded, but I digress. I was going to start with teeth making everything level, the tracks (almost there), the carts head block base, level the arbor/headsaw/nut test the saw (would love advice on this), set the lead starting at 1/16th (suggested by the previous owner), have sharp teeth, rig my throttle, set the guides, run at rpms and shoot temperatures (bearings should be running at 98-100 degrees), then cut 2x4s/2x1s/1x1s for stickers out of a piece of flat white oak I can secure well with my dogs. I'll start off going in 12" and while doing so shoot temperature (plate air temp/no different then start of process and bearing 98-100 degrees) and watching the plate, then back out, then 2ft back out, stop and cut open to see the pattern and check all the tolerances on the blade etc. See if my bite is on target and if the sharpening skills are as bad as I believe the are haha. I'll be welding on a knife this hopefully this week as well. My goal is to be running complete level checking temperatures with sharp teeth by the end of the day. By the end of the weekend it would be nice to be studying my bite and feed rates through a few different boards. Its a laundry list. I need to condition my belts and oil many joints as well. Im making progress on the learning curve and narrowing things down I believe. I have a document that is multiple pages long and will continue to grow in size, I adjusted all my knees and now there a difference of around 1/16" and not anywhere near an 1/8th, I got this by taking a piece of .5"x.5" and measuring it off the same tooth to each knee, front and back, this seems good but I do not know for sure because that seems to be about the best you could as for from a system like this and it is not specified in CTSEO. I attempted to shake the cart and there was no play, do I need to to take a spud bar and try and wrench on it to see if it will move under higher forces? I pushed it pretty hard so I think its fine, but I can always grab a spud bar and give it a nice shove. I need to recheck for backlash, but that doesnt appear to be the problem. I think the carriage is in fair shape, I believe fine tuning the headsaw and overall levelness of the entire mill takes precedence with the sharpness of the teeth. I can upload video of it all. Thanks for the help. Im not giving up its just taking time and I dont know whether to spend money or time on things (like teeth), with this project it seems better to spend time on the keys then actually spending time with the mill. Running a whole lot of ponies into a log is an intense gig. I want to make sure I have covered as many aspects and variables as possible. Im also teetering on a lt15 wide, used with extensions, built trailer, with a 100 bands. I can afford it, I just dont know if I want to follow through with that or take a different route. Seems like a nice gig and could serve as the backbone for my milling needs while I iron out this circle mill. Decisions decisions. Well any advice/correction/wisdom is wonderful and desired, I am always looking for it, THANK YOU! Also thank you to all those who have helped through out this process, I have been talking with a few different people, and I am very thankful for your help and I hope that I can make this thing run! (Bonus question: how worried should I be about my belts tension? One already looks pretty bad and I believe needs replaced, its the return belt) 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 04, 2020, 04:29:50 AM
2 hours? Man what are you doing?  Put in the new teeth with oil and center the shanks. If the saw will not run flat [in the air] don't even try to saw. To repeat myself; try to find an old time sawmill man to help you.
Trying to learn. I look to you guys for knowledge on this, I dont know if thats insane, everyone says that teeth are super important and its my first time with this rig. Ive been meaning to post. But hammering every issue takes time and this a process. Everyone says experience is the best teacher as well. You all are the ones I turn to for wisdom, there is little to no info anywhere besides me chattering off someones ear, and I thought maybe I wasnt working it properly, or if I can just get the teeth into a decent spot then once I complete my other list of checks I can test it. I tend to spend a fair bit of time on stuff before I post. For instance I have 4-6hrs of leveling level the mill and get the headsaw set right all in conjunction. I have another 6-18hrs of work to finish it all I level. That is polished and complete. I think I have 10-24hrs before I am running the saw again and testing. This is all speculation as I am brand new to this. I can call you and you can try and teach me everything you know over the phone, but I think for now I have plenty to try and solve on my own/with assistance of the internet before I travel to miller. I am planning on doing so and it would be wise to learn from them, obviously, I just feel like I need to do my own due diligence on my own mill/knowledge before I travel. Maybe Im wrong. I literally have no idea, I would do anything to make this thing run great and save me money on a bandmill, build me some barns, stock me up on stickers, you name it, I want to cut it, but this thing seems like an airplane, you can fly, but you can also wreck, and everything should be performing to a certain degree in order to achieve flight and anything besides that is peril. Eliminate the variables and proceed on. Thank you for your help and I hope you continue sharing your wisdom with me. I have given a lot of effort to this project so 2hrs is a drop in the bucket to me. I knew that sharpening was suppose to be easy/fast, so it stresses me out that it was taking so long, I assumed I was paying the piper attempting to learn the art of sharpening, maybe a drill will solve my problems. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 04, 2020, 04:35:39 AM
Another reason I wait to post these is that they take FOREVER to write! And I am directly trading time I could be spending with my mill for time with the keys, I get to point where I believe posting would do me more good then time with my mill. Or I am at loss / looking for info, there's a whole lot of reasons for posting.

If you are checking in on this post please check out my long post on the previous page, I got a lot in that boy.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on April 04, 2020, 07:30:16 AM
Do not take all your teeth out at one time.  When you replace your teeth, you do it one tooth at a time.  Take the tooth out, put a new one in, seat the shank by putting the saw wrench or swage inside the shank and hit the wrench with a hammer.  If you do not seat the shank, they may come out.  The reason to do it this way is that you can change the dish in your saw by not putting the same shank into the same socket.  Get the Lunstrum book on sawmills.  Page 62

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf)

You can make yourself an angle gauge.  Get a piece of metal, aluminum is preferable.  Measure the angle you want and cut it out.  Leave room at the tip by drilling a hole there.  Page 65

Do the saw collars match?  They have to be the same size or you'll have major problems.  

My suggestion is to put new teeth in.  That way you'll have the correct angle and clearance.  You'll have plenty of time to learn how to sharpen teeth.  Don't try to work with someone else's sharpening.  The first thing I do to troubleshoot a mill is replace the teeth.  

Those mechanical sharpeners are okay to an extent.  I used one for awhile until I figured out how to hand file.  They do take longer, but hours is way too long.  You can buy one with a drill on it.  It uses a different setup than a normal drill.  I used one like that for the vertical edger.  On the headsaw, I had a Jockey sharpener that I used once a day to maintain my angle.  But, the rest of the time I hand filed.  5-10 minutes in most situations, after you get the hang of it.  A grinder also helps if you have damaged teeth.  The angle is important, but if its off a couple of degrees it shouldn't work against you.  It will act like a dull saw, as the back of the tooth is entering the cut before the tip.  

For hand filing, I used a 10" mill bastard file.  For me, I start at the back of the tooth.  That seems to maintain my angle.  If I tried to do the whole tooth with the file, that seemed to make it too fat.  Get it straight.  To see if it's straight, get a small hand mirror.  After you sharpen, place it on the tooth.  When you look at the mirror, it should reflect the saw in a straight line.  When sharpening, I always straddled the saw.  Don't try to sharpen from the side, or you'll have a real problem getting it straight and getting it sharp.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on April 04, 2020, 07:31:30 AM
3 minutes with a file, 30 seconds with a jockey grinder. 

Listen, are you complsining to us how difficult it is to ask us for advice? That makes it pretty hard to give it knowing that. Do you know hiw flipping many thousands of hours I have into making it so you could sit diwn in your underware and ask the entire sawmilling world for help?

Give me a break.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on April 04, 2020, 01:43:45 PM
 All these years and now you tell us we should be all dressed up ;D

My guess is the file in your Andrus sharpener is shot, in 2 hours you should have cut those teeth to the shanks. I think Menominee Saw there on the left side bar keeps replacements in stock. Same with a mill file, treat yourself to a new one more often than you think you need to. Whenever I get a new file I'm always surprised how bad the old one had gotten. I keep a file card there in a box of old teeth. I actually tried my old andrus yesterday, I had hit several rocks, was just in pine so didn't want to change teeth, swaged and wanted to check/ correct my angle. I hadn't pulled it out in several years, it wouldn't cut worth a flip. I had shown a friend how to use his just a week or two ago so had the feel of a good one. Just wear and a few years of light rust had taken the edge off, I need to get a new wheel for it.

I agree with Ron, when I'm having trouble diagnosing a problem, before I touch my lead or do anything to change my setup I change teeth, if the problem goes away it was a sharpening problem. That is probably not the whole case now, you're still dialing it in but once you get it there 9 times out of 10 its a tooth problem, bad sharpening, a rock whack, something along those lines.

Edit; Never close your hand around the tooth wrench when removing or replacing teeth. Think about what happens when that pin breaks and hold it open handed appropriately.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on April 04, 2020, 02:28:58 PM
I drove a tooth completely into the palm of my hand while changing the teeth on the middle blade of a vertical edger. The pin broke when putting the tooth in and my hand slammed into the fixed top blade. It could only go so far in, because it hit the bend in the tooth. It nickef the median nerve, but didnt sever it, so motion eventally came back two weeks later to my fore and middle fingers.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 04, 2020, 08:13:37 PM
I currently have the privilege of advising a young man who is setting up a w.w. 2 era Turner pony sawmill. It has a ball bearing mandrel  that looks good as do the collars. He has tried to cut with it but that is a long ways off. There is a wobble in the saw and a big wooden pully that is way out of balance. The feed is very jumpy and hard to control. He is going to change it to vee belt drive as I have given him a complete set of shives and belts. Also sold him an old Cat D13000 power unit.     The new owner of an old mill wants to see it saw wood. You tell them to fix this that and the other thing and the mill still won't go. But the only way is to fix all the things that could be the problem to finally get it to saw. This is going to be a long process . I have set up 3 mills in my time and made many mistakes. All of them where old junk and often I had very little money. Had mandrels made that wouldn't work and saws hammered that wouldn't run. For years I only had one saw, know I have 4 that all run good. It didn't happen over night.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: donbj on April 04, 2020, 10:02:03 PM
Also sold him an old Cat D13000 power unit.


I worked for a Wildlife Conservation organization as Field Operations Manager mid 90's to mid 2000's and we had two D13000 Cat power units each driving vertical lift water pumps hooked up with large angle drives on top of the pumps. Each pump discharged 25,000 gpm US, 36" discharge pipe. They ran at 1200 rpm. They were installed in the 50's When we dismantled the set up in the late 90's there was an old timer that was all over them when he found out we were getting rid of them.
They were replaced in the early 70's with new electric driven units of the same output at a different location. Kinda off topic but some memories. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 07, 2020, 02:16:01 AM
Thank you Ron, the collars are the same size, can they come off with out a mass amount of effort like torches, like how everything seems to bolt up for the most part? Is it a part that is cable of being swapped, similar to a blade. tooth or nut? I think I need to re-read CIRCULAR SAWMILLS AND THEIR EFFICIENT OPERATION and even my own posts taking meticulous notes, and keep doing more research on the topic of setting a mill not trying to miss any little detail. I will follow your advice and replace the teeth before I try and do some cutting. I watched a few youtube videos and have pulled and set back a few teeth with out any mishaps so far. I hope I can keep that up. I am gonna get a replacement head for the Andrus hand file for 17$ and power it up with a drill. I cant swallow a brand new jockey grinder quite yet. Its worth a try compared to the 700+ jockey quite yet. I know I;m gonna get one but I would like to roll the dice with this and learning how to hand file. Any brand suggestions for a nice bastard file?  

I am trying to get everything as tuned as I can, I might even try and get a gauge for measuring the carts tolerances to the knees as it passes through the saw. The more I am seeing the more I am realizing that everything is going to need to be as tight as possible. My biggest issue that has been plaguing me is the levelness of the entire structure. I've been spinning my wheels, and I finally bit the bullet and went spent the minimal amount of a 100$ on bits, converters, and levels to bust the holes in the H-beam and level everything. I hope for the love of all that is good that it will all sit level. I've been tussling with this issue for well over 20hrs. I hope I can set the anchor bolts in 6hrs and then level everything in 4-8hrs. There's been goofy stuff going on and I hope the addition of 12 anchor bolts can allow me to fine tune the main housing. If I can get everything to sit level, replace my teeth, and check, recheck, then check again my knee to blade tolerance over and over so I know the track and cart are running as true as possible.


I set a pretty secure post for my new accelerator set point and it is in a prime spot  to act as a corner post to start a screen/wall. I want to build a shield for me to stand behind. I could use this as my corner post. I think that's a project I might do out of some of the thick white oak I cut and get some ballistic glass, I could even curve it over to I can lean over and watch the blade. I also thought about getting a ballistics helmet to stair down the blade. I also think a portable shield would be a great option as well. I feel like any combination of these would be great, I can also mount a go-pro to watch the cut and see how the blade is tracking through the log. I don't fancy looking down the blade unless I'm setting up the guides or seeing how its running without a piece of wood anywhere near.

Side note my plate did not leave heavy metal deposit on the log like I thought. I was mistaken, it was burnt wood, there's some evidence of rub on the plate I believe but nothing as sever like I thought it was. Well I hope I can tune everything (a lot not mentioned in this post) and continue to amass enough knowledge and experience to make this thing run somewhat soon. We shall see, I am actively looking for a band mill though. I have waited too long on this project to postpone any further.

In terms of any ill will on my part I just want to apologize, I'm sorry. I never mean any ill will. I never mean to discount your guys knowledge or thousands of hours of experience. I would be a ball lost in the high grass with out this place I appreciate this platform and the wisdom that is exchanged freely. I plan on giving back, and I will have video of hundreds of hours that I have spent on this project condensed down to semi short videos. But that will take a very long time and I have many other fish frying. I have probably spent 500 hours just to this point, that is a conservative estimation, its nothing compared to the thousands of hours spent by the elders of this community. I just have to look at it from an economical stand point. And the 50-100hrs I have spent reading and posting to this forum is a substantial sum, I did not mean to demean your experience, it was more a tally of my own exploits and for me it weighs to spends hundreds of hours in research, I love it I hope this is evident, it just has its costs. I think I am a pretty patient man. Almost to a fault. Objectively, I should have bought a cheap band mill 4 years ago. It would have turned enough lumber for many projects and wouldve turned itself in value a few times. Thats my mistake to bear, along with a few other sickening mistakes that slipped through the cracks and smacked me with big time realizations. Do not get me wrong, I am doing pretty good, I have an essential full time construction job, in school full time pulling a 4.0, trying to run a farm with out a sawmill, my biggest problem has been 100k+ in mistakes in 4 years or so. Who knows how much school has cost me as well. These are some of my considerations and stuff I find interesting to contemplate. I like this mill but I need reliability and something that is gonna work now. I will not be giving up on the circle mill. I just need a mill now, its been 3 years, whats to say it wont be another 1-2 before it runs correctly, and I could have cut enough lumber to pay for itself and a consultant to come make this saw run. Im gonna try everything mentioned in this forum and make one more solid attempt, then I think I will be making a move on a band mill. Level EVERYTHING (20hrs max), new teeth, knee tracking to the blade, other little tie up issues, test run, if it works no need for a band mill, look through if not completely re-read CSTEO but if that fails I think I gotta make some move on a band mill.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on April 07, 2020, 06:28:57 AM
A drill uses a grinding wheel, not the file pad that the hand Andrus uses.  I believe that you'll end up going too fast with the drill and the pad will fly apart.  No brand suggestion on files, but try to get US made.  The US made stuff has always held up better, and is actually cheaper in the long run.  I bought mine from the sawmill supply guy.  Collars on the mandrel are pressed on.  Don't try to take it off.  You'll ruin it, especially with a torch.  If it needs turned, find someone to turn it on the mill.  Expensive, but easier than taking the mandrel to the shop.  

Level and straight.  You should either run a string line or a laser down your guide track, and it should be straight and perpendicular to the husk.  Don't overthink it.  My first mill, I built a cinder block wall on 2 sides of the pit.  On top, we put some heavy blocking (8x10, I think) that ran the length of the wall.  That was used to tie the husk and track together.  At the track, I cut notches in it for the track to lay.  I used shims to set the track in place.  That was it, and it stayed in place until we replaced the mill with an automatic.  For the remaining track, I built cinder block piers every 10' and attached a 4x6 to the top where the track joined.  Notched and shimmed those.  On the log end, the piers were every 5'.  It stayed level and straight.  We sawed every day on that set up.  

For a guard, I had a piece of reinforced glass in a frame.  I hung it on chains from a ceiling joist so it could move.  I made sure it couldn't hit the saw.  That way, if something hits it, it can move.  For the most part, I sawed on hand mills without one, but it is another level of safety.

I think most of your problem is in setting a satisfactory lead and dealing with poor teeth.  If you're burning going through wood, you're rubbing your saw.  Figure out why you're rubbing the saw.  Make a checklist and go from there.  Do the easy things first.  RPM is right, teeth are right, saw guides set right, track set straight, lead set.  I went to one mill where they couldn't figure out what was wrong.  They had the lead set backwards.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 07, 2020, 09:08:50 AM
The collar will have to do unless I know I could deal with it, but I could pull the arbor with out too much work now that I think about it. That might be the heavier tactics than what is needed to make this saw run, that is a different stage of development. Not apposed, but I want to eliminate the other problems first. 

Can I run a 56" with a smaller collar? The previous owner claims this set up worked. 

I believe RPMS were pretty good. I would need a third set of hands to test the rpms, look at the video for an audio q, or I could try and rig up a digital one of some form, the laser one allowed me to dial everything in right in terms of RPMS while not cutting. But I was hands on deck and watching the blade as I cut.  

What are your thoughts on building a tank of a shield? Like bullet proof glass and 4" thick W/O? I can buy a lot of bullet proof glass for 150$, and for a little bit of effort I could have one heck of a shield. I could build things on hinges so it could swing out of the way, or have a track system, or just build something I can move with the bobcat. But I would like it if it could be secured offering me a tank like sheltering. I dont have a way to hang anything either. I could potentially build something that would extend over and hang. There's a lot of different styles it could be executed. That would give me a whole lot of confidence and for not much money or effort. 

I believe the guide track to be pretty straight, for the entire primary track it is on its original welds from when it was secured to the main I-beam. I step back and look down it and it looks pretty gosh darn straight, especially when compared to the other track. I also used a tile laser and a few hours of trying to get it just right to see how straight the guide track is and I thought it was perfect. I could be wrong and I saw there are better tactics for seeing the deviation in the knees to the saw, like a piece of flat metal and scroll meter. I saw it in a youtube video from a university that was showing tactics on how to problem shoot a mill. Pretty nifty, I just have to push my cart to get these readings. I did that a lot with a piece of wood and had a deviation of 1/16" across three knees spanning I believe 12-14ft to the same tooth front and back of the saw, each of them read out correctly to lead as well. I hope that will suffice. 

I hope for the love of all that is good that my lead is set correctly. Its set to an 1/8th right now....... I want to check those bolts/nuts securing it again, can I use amsoil synthetic blue grease in those bearings on the arbor? I put a half a tube in between two main zerks on the main arbor bearings, I couldnt see any grease come out, should I put in more? This is ok right? Im not going to mess anything up by trying to shove too much grease into the any joint that has a zerk fitting right?????????? After the dishing deal with the shanks and blade, things have me on edge a bit more than often.

Poor teeth are definitely I believe to be a current issue. When I am changing out teeth what are your guys thoughts of using never seas rather than/in conjunction with oil? Do you use the oil to stop rusting, and prevent the two faces from welding together? I use never seas on a whole lot of things on my vehicle with a lot of success. But I completely understanding sticking to certain tried and true tactics. Never seas could add a little bit of thickness or something I have no idea, but I could see something causing an issue, its the plate we are talking about here. Also centering shanks? I noticed all the shanks are sticking opposite of the log side, an the blade rubbed on the log side of the blade. Dont know if that is a dead give away for something or not. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on April 07, 2020, 11:25:21 AM
I am glad to hear your blade rub was burnt wood. I couldn't wrap my brain around a saw plate transferring metal unless something catastrophic happened. Don' play around with a torch on your saw hub. I had a new mandrel made and the fit between the hub and the shaft was an interference fit. They used a fifty ton press to force the hub cold(no heat) onto the shaft. The whole assembly was mounted in a lathe and the collar machined into the hub. The outer collar should be loose once the outer nut is off. No different than your home tablesaw.
    Never seize is an anti corrosion inhibitor-not a lubricant. and a lubricant is what you need when you seat the shanks. Just have a small container of motor oil handy and dip the shank in the oil as you insert them. Never seize is great for nuts and bolts applications.
    Greasing bearings until you see excess grease come out typically does no harm. Extra grease will continue to come out as the shaft gets up to speed and just makes a sawdust attractant. If your mill is exposed to the weather the extra grease doesn't hurt. If you have ever popped the seal off a factory sealed bearing. you would think it didn't have enough grease.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on April 07, 2020, 12:49:47 PM
The bearings are closed bearings.  You won't see grease come out.  You can overload the grease, and that will cause heat.  You only need to put a couple pumps in about once a month.  

You're overthinking changing teeth.  What I always did was spray the shanks down with a penetrating oil like Blue Creeper.  Just spin the saw by hand and spray it.  That should loosen up your shank, and be enough oil to put it back in.  As long as you seat the shank, it shouldn't pop out unless it is really worn out.  Even those can be corrected with a peen hammer.  No need to smear anything else into the sockets.

You can build a shield out of bullet proof.  I had that on my cab when I was sawing on an automatic mill.  But, I was right on top of the saw.  Reinforced is cheaper and works as well.  The only time that the saw sends stuff back is when something falls on top of it.  I can only think of it happening once or twice in all the millions of feet I sawed on a hand mill.  There are things you need to watch.  One is at the board splitter.  You don't want a piece to go behind it.  That only happens on your slab cut where you aren't cutting into the log right away.  A lot depends on the style of board splitter and whether its bent or not.  The other things you need to make sure of is that the dogs are back far enough not to hit the saw.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 07, 2020, 12:59:55 PM
Well there went that post. Every time I get long winded, poof!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on April 07, 2020, 01:18:54 PM
Yeah, I've started right clicking, click "select all", then click "copy". I have to try again about 1/4 of the time, I thought it was at my end, and it probably is. If it eats the post I just have to right click and click "paste" to try again.

The video you were watching Jemmy was Casey Creamer with an NCSU wood doc I believe. Casey has a very good book called "Sawmiller's Guide to Troubleshooting"

I was going to say that in there he says to not overgrease for the reasons Ron beat me to. But do grab a copy of that book, I've used it more than Lundsford probably.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 07, 2020, 04:51:42 PM
Rescue Ron, its got quite the sound to it. Thanks again Ron. 

I swear everything is a landmine........... one misstep.... boom Im just trying to be careful so I can minimize risk and lack of success everywhere. It seems like I touch it and things seem to go backwards. Prime example is the grease. I hope it doesnt overheat/ruin that bearing/mess with the plate now (on the list of things to check before running)....... As for changing teeth I just noticed the shanks are coming out to one side, and I never realized that before, and I am pretty confident I can change teeth, I just got emailed the part break down for the Andrus sharpener, so that will be on its way, if there is somewhere I can just buy a guage I would prefer that, I bet I could get it right but I would rather try and buy. But I dont know if that is custom to my plate, but I would think it shouldnt matter. 

Tonight's goal is to get as many (10-14) anchor bolts set and hopefully be in a good spot to make a good faith effort to level every aspect of the mill. Well Before I lose anymore sunlight, I gotta cut my thoughts short and get out there. Time to have some fun in the sun and metal slivers. 

Thanks to everyone else that is contributing to this thread. Maybe it will be a book in and of itself.... 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 07, 2020, 09:06:52 PM
Well, here I go again. Can't help but disagree with 2 good members. The bearing next to the saw cannot be over greased, unless you only saw for an hour a day. Ball bearings will take extra grease better than roller bearings but grease makes heat and it well swell the center of the saw.  For a long time I searched for a grease that would run cooler in my saw bearing. The lubracation people thought I was nuts [I already knew that]. One day I ripped the seals out of a new Timkin/ Fafner sealed ball bearing and found it full of blue grease. This is a no no but buy using special grease it can be done. They sell that grease under their name, very expensive.  Then by luck I found that Harry Schell Sawmill recommended lubraplate cold weather grease for sawmill arbors and that is what I use. By being careful not to over do it I ended my warm saw problems.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 07, 2020, 09:18:15 PM
Page 2. I once had a sawmill mandrel made and they pressed the hub on. That lasted about 5 min. The next one Lane made and they heat a new cast iron hub [fixed collar] in an oven before they press it on. They also had a press all set up the straighten the mandrel before they cut the collars. I have 1/2 thousand wobble and this mandrel has held up.  I tried to find out the interference fit but no luck.     This is why I tell people to find a sawmill machine shop. I had an edger shaft made wrong to. I always learn the hard way.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 07, 2020, 09:26:34 PM
Yeah, I've started right clicking, click "select all", then click "copy". I have to try again about 1/4 of the time, I thought it was at my end, and it probably is. If it eats the post I just have to right click and click "paste" to try again.

The video you were watching Jemmy was Casey Creamer with an NCSU wood doc I believe. Casey has a very good book called "Sawmiller's Guide to Troubleshooting"

I was going to say that in there he says to not overgrease for the reasons Ron beat me to. But do grab a copy of that book, I've used it more than Lundsford probably.
To me the Lundsford book is much better.  If I start on Creamer I well get kicked out for sure.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: luap on April 08, 2020, 06:23:14 PM
I agree with Ron and moodacreek on the over greasing causing heat. The difference in the bearings is the type of seals. Some are designed to let the excess purge which also will purge any moisture and contaniments. Some bearing housings have a small plug to remove when greasing to allow excess to purge without overgreasing. As Ron said just give a couple pumps and move on. When my mandrel was made  they used 4140 alloy which I don't know if it was necessary but that's what they used and why it wasn't heated when assembled. The hub and the shaft were turned at the same time so it all ran true at that time and I have never had any reason to suspect it to check it since. I could see why a cast hub could be heated to install. At work we routinely figured .002" press fit per inch dia of shaft for drive coupling but a saw hub has more force on it than a motor coupling.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on April 08, 2020, 08:35:13 PM
The mandrel bearings on my mill are spherical roller with exclusion seals that let grease out, over time. Over grease them and you won't saw for long. They are also, 2 of them expansion type but this is not necessary. The seals of this type are non contact because rubbing seals cause heat.  What taught me the most about all of this was the point and click thermometer. As your saw runs you can monitor the bearing warm up and follow it into the hub and then the saw itself. In my case a 5 degree difference from the center to the rim [of saw] is too much.