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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Bolson400 on April 13, 2019, 11:38:50 PM

Title: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 13, 2019, 11:38:50 PM
Ran into another issue today. The brass drive gear on the electric up/down is completely stripped. Anyone had any experience with this issue? Iíll be calling TK for advice first thing Monday morning, but thought Iíd throw it out to you guys in the mean time. If your familiar, what was your fix? Any idea on where to get a replacement? Thanks for any input. Hope these photos work too.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49690/4C87AA4F-8A3F-43DE-AFC1-2270F4C1368D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1555213039)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49690/CCFA94F5-21BC-410C-889C-5ABAE5C355A9.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1555212284)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49690/8725DDDD-4440-472B-9FB5-F99842757CFB.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1555212283)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49690/5D7B1EC4-C208-4854-9730-9C8827E1AB62.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1555211147)
 
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 13, 2019, 11:41:21 PM
Also, was there an underlying cause that needs to be addressed or is this just some kind of normal wear issue? Iíd hate to fix it just to have it happen again. 
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on April 13, 2019, 11:51:58 PM
Yes, that happened to me early on in my ownership of my mill.  As you probably noticed, there are multiple ports, one of which is the proper one to check to make sure there is sufficient fluid (if it seeps out then it is at the proper level).  The multiple ports are because it is designed to run in many different orientations, depending on application.

I apparently didn't open the right one, it seeped, so I thought it was at the proper level - it wasn't.  They have a brass gear meshing with a stainless steel gear, something's gotta give when there is insufficient oil (a special fluid).  It is not a cheap part, on-line prices were pretty close to what TK charges.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 13, 2019, 11:54:27 PM
Any suggestions on where to go about finding a replacement? Iím pretty lost. I donít even know what the part is called.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: redbeard on April 14, 2019, 04:23:08 AM
I also had a leak in the seal and it failed. 
Never had another problem with it after replacing it with a new one.
It is a expensive part.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: ladylake on April 14, 2019, 05:46:49 AM
 
 My gearbox is still original after 14000 hours, the bottom seal did come loose once which I fixed right away. I did put a piece of plastic over the top as it seemed the vent could let water in.   This one must have been run without oil.  Steve
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on April 14, 2019, 08:29:10 AM
Search for worm-drive, speed reducer or gearbox.  Enter the manufacturer name and model number in Google (or whichever search engine you use) and you should get some idea of the options.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: tacks Y on April 14, 2019, 09:02:02 AM
Measure bolt spacing on motor, shaft size, ratio on tag. Then go looking, input hp is .80 right? hard to read tag. Can not read ratio. Will have to remove from motor to ck input shaft size also. May be a common reduction, I have a few on the shelve. Mine are all ac.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Larry on April 14, 2019, 02:20:11 PM
Probably a standard worm gear available from Boston Gear through Amazon or ebay.  You will need all the dimensions, number of teeth, gearbox ratio, and pressure angle (PA).
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Two Trax on April 14, 2019, 05:52:46 PM
Ouch! It looks as if it would be hard on the pocketbook. I will certainly be checking mine....

Best of luck with the repair!
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on April 14, 2019, 08:04:07 PM
That brass gear is designed to be the weak link in the chain, it is replaceable if you feel mechanically competent.  When the lubricant is maintained at the proper level, they would probably last the life of the mill (as Ladylake's has), I now have a gallon of the special lube, haven't had to add any since I installed the replacement but I do check the proper port periodically. ;D 

When mine went I bought a new replacement from TK, I think they may have had the brass gear available (IIRC, it was many years ago), but I had jobs scheduled and needed the quickest, most reliable fix.  In addition to TK, I have seen them at Graingers ($$$) and on E-bay, just make sure you are matching the specs.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 14, 2019, 08:55:57 PM
I think I could probably just replace the brass gear. Assuming I was confident it would fit. Iíll hopefully get some info from TK on the correct specs. That whole assembly is a lot more expensive than I would have expected.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 14, 2019, 08:58:23 PM
Also, for future reference, which is the correct port for checking the level? I donít remember that being covered in the manual.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Two Trax on April 15, 2019, 07:15:53 AM
Also, for future reference, which is the correct port for checking the level? I donít remember that being covered in the manual.
That brass gear is designed to be the weak link in the chain, it is replaceable if you feel mechanically competent.  When the lubricant is maintained at the proper level, they would probably last the life of the mill (as Ladylake's has), I now have a gallon of the special lube, haven't had to add any since I installed the replacement but I do check the proper port periodically. ;D

When mine went I bought a new replacement from TK, I think they may have had the brass gear available (IIRC, it was many years ago), but I had jobs scheduled and needed the quickest, most reliable fix.  In addition to TK, I have seen them at Graingers ($$$) and on E-bay, just make sure you are matching the specs.
Like Bolson400, I could not find anything in the manual regarding checking those levels.

Tom, could you please elaborate on the special lube? And where to buy it? I would have thought a gear oil would be sufficient for the relatively low speed these gears and bearings operate at.

Thanks in advance for any direction you can provide.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: pineywoods on April 15, 2019, 10:26:09 AM
That brass gear is the same as used in most pto winches. I stripped mine out on my logging winch, $$$400 bucks for a new one. Some research turned up some interesting facts. Grease is useless, it just squishes out. The contact area between the 2 gears needs to be immersed in a good gear oil. Just some oil splashed on the gears ain't good enough. Watch that lube level...
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on April 15, 2019, 02:58:50 PM
My old one looks like yours, a Winsmith 913, the replacement is a Winsmith SE ENCORE E13.  On the old one, one of the ports was slightly higher than the midline of the shaft, that is the one that should seep if you open the plug and it has enough fluid.  The specified lubricant on the new one is Mobil Glygoyle 460 lubricant.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Two Trax on April 15, 2019, 05:58:06 PM
Thank you Tom. Doing some research, that ISO spec is equivalent to 85W140 gear oil. I have synthetic gear oil, Mobil 1 in that weight. My thoughts are that would be ok? 
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Tom the Sawyer on April 15, 2019, 06:09:50 PM
On the gearbox label it specifies that product, and "Do Not Substitute", but I suspect that is a brand-exclusivity thing and if it meets the same specs, I would think that a substitution would be OK.  I don't remember anything about a warranty to worry about voiding.  The main thing is that it continues to run in a bath of lubricant and doesn't run low. :)
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Bolson400 on April 16, 2019, 01:53:22 AM
Thanks for the info on the upkeep for the gearbox. I went ahead and ordered the brass gear. I think with my press Iíll be able to make the swap. Ordered some of the gear oil and the total came in just shy of $300. The entire assembly cost around $700! Kind of unbelievable to me. Mike at TK said heís seen this failure before, but never on one that didnít have a lubricant problem. So keep your levels up. Also, TK sells the recommended lubricant. They said it was pretty hard to find so they went ahead and stocked it. Price is high, but itíll last a while and I donít want to go through this again.

Now I just have to figure out the setworks. They were bypassed when I bought it. Went through and hooked them up. Now the up/down switch works, but when I turn the setworks switch on the up stops working and the display wonít come on.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Two Trax on April 16, 2019, 06:05:21 AM

 My gearbox is still original after 14000 hours, the bottom seal did come loose once which I fixed right away. I did put a piece of plastic over the top as it seemed the vent could let water in.   This one must have been run without oil.  Steve
Steve, did you use the specified lube when replacing the seal? In the 14,0000 hours you have on the mill have you ever changed the fluid as a maintenance item?

I did some reading on the differences between industrial lube vs automotive and there are some differences mostly in the ad pack. Industrial lube seems to have more additive to deal with higher heat temps, automotive has more extreme pressure additive to provide lubrication film in the hypoid gears.
 
It certainly seems that you could use the automotive as a top off if needed.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: ladylake on April 16, 2019, 06:36:19 AM
The only time it got changed is when the seal pushed out around 4000 hours ago. I didn't buy any special oil. cant remember but most likely gear oil I had.  I really don't think a 1/4 hp or 3/4hp electric motor overloads those gears much. I do have a spare gearbox rated for over 1 hp input that I bought online for around $160 on hand just in case.   Steve
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: crowhill on April 16, 2019, 07:04:20 AM
I once had a pretty good discussion with an engineer that told me one really needs be careful with their greases and hydraulic oils. Even tho there may be a very close rating of one to another some equipment seals and other internal parts have very different tolerances to the lubricants. It may take a long period of time for damage to occur but damage will occur. 
The engineers background was in design of molding presses using massive tons of pressure. Way beyond my mechanical self, but with $$ spend now or spend them later I guess. Says the guy who has used a cracker box and grease for a thermostat seal... once upon a time. 
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: ladylake on April 16, 2019, 07:56:46 AM
 
 We are not dealing with massive tons of pressure here, just a under 1 hp gear box, low speed .. Seems like most manufactures like everyone to buy their oil at inflated prices.   Steve
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: Two Trax on April 16, 2019, 08:08:39 AM

 We are not dealing with massive tons of pressure here, just a under 1 hp gear box, low speed .. Seems like most manufactures like everyone to buy their oil at inflated prices.   Steve
Steve I tend to agree with you here. I do not see this component as being in anything near severe service.

I am a maintenance nut, but do not believe in throwing money away. As an example I do not use manufacturer oil in my equipment,  but certainly pay attention to specs required and use quality products. Example, I do not use John Deere oil in my John Deere tractors. Perfectly happy with Shell Rotella, Mobil Delvac etc which I can buy at half the cost.
Title: Re: B20 Problems
Post by: luap on April 16, 2019, 02:07:00 PM
In the plant I worked in we used Mobile 600 shc series in very large worm gears (3 foot diameter) turning a 8 foot diameter drum) and Mobile 600w series in normal smaller worm gears. It had the appearance of black crude. almost all of this equipment ran 24/7. oil levels checked routinely and changed annually.