The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: JoshNZ on August 04, 2019, 08:52:44 PM

Title: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 04, 2019, 08:52:44 PM
Well I decided I will start a build thread, more for my sake of asking questions etc than any body else's  :D. I'm Josh from New Zealand as name implies! Got no business building something like this, very little 'engineering experience' so. No laughing... I'm a chopper driver/fruit grower and between the two busy seasons right now so spending most days at it.

Basically I wanted a simple trailer unit with basic setup procedure, it'll get handed around friends (those I deem capable..) so length was compromised for ease of traveling. It all came together pretty quickly, first two days I had a rolling trailer.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190716_171345.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958609)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190717_170901.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958609)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190719_180307.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958612)
 

A few weld photos for good measure. I don't own a mig and I wasn't going to tow the pedal around the floor with me, so stick it was.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190719_200031.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958612)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190719_165927.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958610)
 

Axle cut to length and stubs welded in. I fitted hubs on between tacks/welds and measured distance around rim to make sure of alignment.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190720_131112.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958615)
 

Some of the steel I'm using is from dads shed, been sitting around for several decades so work slows down when I have to tidy it up. I cut a bit of old 1/2" unequal for the hitch and faced it on the mill. Will add a gusset later.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190720_135214.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958616)
 

I took it for a quick drive and it behaves nicely. The wheels are off an old ute I'll have to find something smaller but it'll keep it manoeuvrable for now.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190720_171457~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564958618)
 

I got straight into the carriage. Milled and drilled slots for each wheel on the bases, then built each side, then tacked angle iron to the bed (one along a string line, the other at equal distance from it) and assembled sitting at head of trailer. I must say I had a prick of a time keeping the thing square, as there is no 'bottom beam' to fight the other welds with. Even with the bracing it would pull in tight once clamps were removed. I had several attempts at stretching it over sized a small amount and eventually got lucky when removing clamps where it was bang on.

I seem to spend half my time hoping my welds are good and half my time hoping they are crap when I have to cut them out...  :D


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190721_211245~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564959803)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190721_221357~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564959804)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190724_125503.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564959821)
 

I hadn't decided how to mount the beam and I had a friend who owns a plasma cutting business twist my arm into taking four linear bearings off him + rails, he gave them to me cheap. Also meant anything on the carriage being out of square got solved at this point. I ended up only needing two, the things are solid as hell, even with one at each end I could lift the beam outside of the bearing at one end and the beam still went up level smooth as butter, so I get to return two of them. I decided with lead screws right behind the bearings the only problem they might have being racking, would be solved.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190727_175051.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564960115)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190728_131225.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564960115)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190728_140304.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564960116)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190728_182351.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564960116)
 

I realise the beam is a bit short or the overhang is at least. It's just what I had around. Hopefully it leaves enough room for a sliding tensioning sleeve later. Haven't quite sussed this out in my head yet so suggestions welcome.

In my infinite wisdom I decided to try turning the lead screws myself. 1700mm long shafts on a lathe with 800mm between centres... Needless to say, almost every hour I spent turning them was filled with regret for ever attempting it.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190731_131248.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961010)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190731_131311.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961011)
 

They leave a lot to be desired, some thread turns are a bit rough where chatter got away on me. But the nut I have turned is 40mm long though and at 3mm pitch, over 13 threads will always be engaged, so it's never going to fail.

I knocked the brass lugs out of my follow rest and machined slots and press fit shafts so the pins would take skateboard bearings (because that's what I had in my drawer). I feel like brass lugs themselves can induce chatter, possibly worse than with no rest sometimes. The bearings were definitely a magic bullet. This + a few tricks I learned with the first one made the second screw quite a bit easier. Less than half the time and to a better standard. These were turned out of rusty, bent, 35mm bar down to 25mm so it was not a good time, but I got there.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190730_115757~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961007)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190730_134341.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961010)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190801_212320.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961011)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190801_231123.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564961014)
 

I didn't have big enough stock to turn the nuts with flanges so welded to a piece I cut from some box section. They turned out pretty good. There is no weight on the welds, just a small amount of torque, so they'll do.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_151759.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963105)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_180729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963105)
 

Next was roughing out the holes for the screws in the beam and top of carriage. Forks sure beats a ladder!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_184729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963107)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_221548.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963106)
 

I used 17mm bearings for the base with a shoulder turned down on the screw to take the weight on the bearing collar, and 20mm on top. Basically clamped the bearings in place top and bottom, and ran the beam up and down on a strop, tapping them until the screws stayed centre in the holes at each end. Then marked, drilled and tapped.

The flanges are held by 10mm bolts threaded in 3mm wall, I was surprised how much torque I could put on them. They're not holding weight, just lateral vibration maybe, so will see how they go I may have to drill out the backs and put nuts on the bolts. Also turned a 'safety collar' to prevent the nuts dropping off the screws if I ever went too low during maintenance or something.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190804_171549.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963684)
 

I picked up a 10ft roll of 06B chain and a pair of sprockets for next to nothing in town, and just the morning I needed it I found a wrecked mobility scooter on facebook (algorithms must have known I was looking it was at the top of my news feed that morning!).
Bored the sprockets to the shaft size and drilled/tapped grub screws. I can't be bothered keying any of this stuff/don't have a broach, so I'll just divet the shafts and grub screw.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_232646.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963769)
 

I'd hoped the wheelchair motor+gearbox would be a nice tidy unit I could bolt straight on but unfortunately it turned out to be a giant diff. I pulled the diff apart and decided the first reduction gear in it would get me about what I wanted, so am going with mounting that gear to the shaft and will built a bracket to mount the motor engaged with that gear.

The gear was harder than holy hell, sent a drill bit to its death trying to bore it out. The case hardening was deep as hell and even after cutting it off with carbide I still had a hard time boring it out. Decided there was no way I could drill and tap it so I turned a shrink-fit sleeve for it about .025mm over size. It spent the day in the freezer and later on when I was ready I put some propane on the gear and drove it in with a sledge hammer. It's def never going to move. Drilled and tapped the sleeve then fit to the shaft.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190804_134409.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963769)
 

I had a third sprocket lying around which I cleaned the bore on, then turned a seperate stub with a thread to fasten to a slot on one end, and shaft with step and circlip groove the other. This made up the tensioner.

My idea was to plug the old grub screw threads and tap into one of them with a grease nipple. Prob the first stupid thing I have done for this build (to my knowledge =/). Small enough to be funny haha.
 it...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190804_211634.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564964258)
 

Nevermind, I welded the slot on with enough travel to tension what I had and the gear got turned upside-down, I hadn't diveted the screw sprockets yet so they got raised a bit.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/Weld.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564964754)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_122332~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564964754)
 

And this is where I have finished up at the time of writing this. Will probably add a small gusset to the tensioner bar.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190804_234406.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564965134)
 

I was slacked off to find out I could barely move the chain once it was together! I found if I torque the lead screw nuts' bolts on the beam right up it binds. I think snugging the nuts right up to the RHS beam probably pulls them off axis slightly, so I'll either need to shim them, or I might turn some bolts with shoulders then oversize the holes in the nuts so they can float. They only need to be stopped from turning. Once backed off I could pull the chain with one hand smoothly.

I screwed the motor to a block of wood and clamped it with the pinion engaged, with a dodgy old motorbike battery it turns over nicely up and down, a bit of a hump with not dead true lead screws but appears it will work well. Will get building a bracket today.
I measured about 310RPM on the sprocket in a video, at 3mm pitch on the lead screw gives 930mm/min or 36"/min travel. Sound about right...?

I've got a bunch of questions banging around in my head I'll put in the next post!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on August 04, 2019, 09:10:58 PM
Well, THAT went quick! ;D ;D
 Really, as a machinist for nearly 50 years, you've done some really nice work there! Holy cow, nice job on the lead screws and nuts. Squareness can be real touchy on those. Keep it coming, this in fun to watch.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 04, 2019, 10:42:40 PM
Thanks Greenhorn! But I haven't shown the worst areas of the thread =/. I've wanted a tail vice for my wood bench for a long time, half way through the first screw I seriously considered ending it there and calling it a tail vice, and never telling anyone I attempted a lead screw.. :D But never mind... They'll work!

I guess my first question is engine size... I only have a few options here, if I get lucky I'll find one used before I need it but otherwise I'm buying new. There is nothing really between 10, 13, 15hp single banger at ~$500NZ. ($1NZ = $.65US today). So I was set on 15hp for a while but now am leaning towards a V twin electric start, since I now have electronics, and if the stator wasn't up to it I could pull an alternator too.
18-22hp V twin is a big price jump starting at $1300NZ, all the way to $3k+.

For those that can be bothered looking... Any of these stand out as recognisable reasonable clones or whatever. I doubt there's much in the 18-22hp as they're all ~680cc displacement.

Considering this is a hobby mill, not production... It might see a few logs a year, might it be better to stay down at 15hp and either charge batteries manually or pull an alternator..? The capacity will end up being somewhere around 915mm/36".

I haven't quite nutted out how I will track the blade, I figured I would run the shafts through pillow blocks fastened with bolts sliding in slots, and guide the blocks with lateral bolts, is this the easiest way to do it?

And for tensioning, a sleeve fitted over the beam tensioned by a bottle jack, is the idea I had... That sound doable? Is it easy enough to tap a bottle jack with a pressure gauge?

I had these pulleys show up last week, thanks to Rayar for putting me onto the fact that you guys actually use pulleys... That had me stumped for a long time. Even once I found these, no-one in NZ seemed to have them in stock but an engineering company brought some in from Australia for a really good price. Apparently known as bilocs or milocs, with a taper bush and clamping retainer. I got 38mm bushes (1.5"). He assured me they'll take all the torque I can throw at them without needing a key.
I took one down to the auto shop and the B section belts sit about .7mm or 1/32" above the pulley rim, is this enough? No luck finding the right size I'll have to order.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_135439.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564973165)
 

I think I'll have to turn the shafts out of 4140 as they'll hang quite far out from the bearings in order to clear the toes of the carriage, I'll wait around a little longer to see if some offcuts come up otherwise I will go and see a friend.

Thanks in advance of course!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on August 04, 2019, 11:17:37 PM
Your engine size will also depend on the band you are pulling.  Will it be 1¼" or 1½"?  The bigger, the more tension and the more HP you will need.  I'm pulling a 1¼" and "upgraded" to a twin 18hp.  I'd like 20 or 22 hp after using it a couple years now cutting up to 28".

Tracking like that should work.  You WILL need tracking adjustments on both the powered and the idle wheels.

Using a bottle jack would work great, IF it will work in that position.  Might not.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 04, 2019, 11:32:49 PM
OHHHHH, I WISH I HAD A MILL AND A LATHE. I THINK MY BUILD WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE. 

EXTREMELY NICE BUILD SIR. YOU HAVE HELPED MAKE MY MIND UP ON USING ACME ROD FOR MY LIFTING UNIT. THE DANG ROLLER CHAIN TIED OFF HERE AND THERE AND OTHER WHATNOTS HAS GOT MY HAIR THINNED OUT.

YOU A CATTLE RUSTLING MEAT SERVO OR CROP DUSTER?

I ACCIDENTALLY BOUGHT THE SAME TYPE LINEAR BEARING, THEN REALIZED, I COULD USE THEM, BUT WOULD HAVE TO DO SOME SERIOUS COUNTER SINKING, PLUS I NEEDED ANOTHER THK 45 RAIL, SO BOUGHT A LONGER RAIL AND THE LM FLANGE STYLE BEARINGS, JUST TO FIND OUT THE DANG THINGS DIDNT HAVE GREASE ZERKS. GOTTA DO SOME BRAZING ON A GREASE GUN TUBE AND PIPE FITTING JUST TO LUBE THEM. 

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: thecfarm on August 05, 2019, 06:27:32 AM
Engine size? Mine came with a 20hp Honda. Never slowed that thing down yet. But have never sawed a good size hardwood on it either. There are some that are sawing with less hp than me.
Looking good there you are,you are. ;D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Dana Stanley on August 05, 2019, 07:32:56 AM
Around here you can get used ride-on mowers  with 20 hp plus for under 500.00  any day of the week. If a feller were real good at machining he could set up a shaft and gears to convert it to horizontal drive. Then you would have the power and electric you want at a cheap price.
One thing I would do is to use a seperate drive pulley, and not the band pulley as a drive pulley. Then you can allow for a much deeper cut if you set it up right.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 05, 2019, 08:29:15 AM
I hadn't given much thought to blade size I assumed 1-1/4" was my only option. I will lean towards the 20+hp engines then. Vertical shaft engines are a whole lot cheaper here too but I don't think I want to bother with a right angle gearbox. More noise, and another thing to break - especially if I machine it haha. Are there many mills around running verticals? I had planned on running a seperate pulley on the driving wheels' shaft.
That was my other question I forgot to ask, if I do go 20+hp, is centrifugal clutch or a belt tensioning lever a better idea?

The motor had a bunch of crap in the back of it, brake and Hall effect sensor I guess which I got rid of. I considered turning the case down but don't think I'll bother.

I turned a recess into a plate to fit the motor, drilled and tapped mounting holes, then milled slots. Also drilled a second plate which I welded to a bit of box which was the right height.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_210825.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006285)
 

Tacked it in place and then blasted it to the frame, and mounted motor with pinion engaged and a slight bit of backlash. It didn't seem to make a difference to noise, don't think it's coming from the gears.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_212519.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006458)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_230113.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006507)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_230129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006507)
 

Ended up with a booboo on one of the slots as the work piece came loose. It didn't fit in my vice so I had it clamped to the top of it oddly...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_203407.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006671)
 

This is the crap I'm making this stuff out of, and what makes it so slow. The right bit of clean steel would be a luxury for me!!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190805_183013.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565006723)
 

Here's a quick vid of it lifting, not sure how it's supposed to sound. I'm thinking I'll put rubber shims between the nuts and beam to help with that chattery sound. It labours a bit with me on the beam and I'm only 70kg/150lb. I guess an engine+saw gear won't go too far over that.
lift - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kW8unbjkzuQ)

I was pretty lucky my friend had the linear blocks Charles, and he buys kilometres of rail. Blocks were cheap and my rails were free offcuts. They hide hex cap bolt heads inside them and the blocks just have threads. easy as! Just tourists at the moment actually! Not ideal but it's close to home which is where I want to stay for the moment, I've got a few things on.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: thecfarm on August 05, 2019, 08:50:17 AM
I have a centrifugal clutch on mine. That was a big and I do mean big plus on why I bought it.Well that was the reason I bought it. I have a bum shoulder. No way could I reach up and engage and unegage that lever all day. Not that I saw all day,but 10-12 times would start to bother me. I know why some mills use the lever,cheaper,but still don't see why they do it that way. ;D 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on August 05, 2019, 09:23:07 AM
That was my other question I forgot to ask, if I do go 20+hp, is centrifugal clutch or a belt tensioning lever a better idea?
 
My 18hp twin horizontal came with a fixed pulley on the back (not used) and an electric clutch on the front.  Way cool!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 05, 2019, 12:29:56 PM
With how tight you said everything is do you rally need 2 screws? I toyed with the idea of doing the same thing with the linear bearings but hoping I could get away with 1 screw.

You build is looking great. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 05, 2019, 04:35:14 PM
My build will have a box to slide around my sawbeam too. I know it worked for another person that built his mill. He used a port-a-power pump and ram to tension with. On another mill build thread, someone mentioned using the bottle out of a floor jack, since it was designed to work in the horizontal position. 
From the looks of you beam, you dont have much out past your linear bearings, so you might have to think of something else, like hinging the idle wheel and pushing against the idle shaft bracket, or build a box that’ll slide inside the beam and either push the box with hyd. or using a screw method and pushing off a plate placed inside the beam. Im kinda brain storming myself, trying figure a tensioning method, and i think im gonna use acme rod to push against a plate inside my beam and find a way to grab hold of my idle box. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 05, 2019, 07:03:08 PM
You could definitely get away with one screw but you'd want 4 bearing blocks rather than 2, they'd have to take care of racking all on their own. If you spaced them far enough apart vertically then they'd be fine I'm sure - would also mean you'd loose some travel to the spacing of them. I'd run your screw as far inboard as you could, i.e. on the inboard rim of that sides wheel or whatever is closer that would otherwise interfere with a log. With 2 bearings, no. It's tight now but they're brand new and although it stays level you can tell it stresses them, wouldn't be tight for long I think the balls would be crying.

I thought if I really needed it I could always have a bolt together box, with a cutout for the bearing. But may hinge yet or may go inside the beam like you say. May weld a sleeve inside the beam, then go outside that sleeve. Cross that bridge later I'll see what steel I can find.

You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Dana Stanley on August 05, 2019, 09:11:33 PM
I guess it can be done! Electric oil pump is what this guy used.https://youtu.be/NFp8WUQle88 (https://youtu.be/NFp8WUQle88)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Meadows Miller on August 05, 2019, 09:34:52 PM
G'day 

Josh your of to a flying start looking great mate 

Regards Chris 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 06, 2019, 12:23:24 AM
You could definitely get away with one screw but you'd want 4 bearing blocks rather than 2, they'd have to take care of racking all on their own. If you spaced them far enough apart vertically then they'd be fine I'm sure - would also mean you'd loose some travel to the spacing of them.
well, after trying to locate 78" acme rod, only place i could find wanted $25/6" of rod. that was a lil over $1000 per rod. idk if the rod being made out of 4140 is the reason for the high price, but it aint worth that to me. there are other places that sell 1.5"-4 rod, but its either 6' or 12', and i don't want to waste 5' of rod per side, well, 4' on 1 side, bc i could use a foot for my tensioning mechanism. so i think I'm gonna go back to the chain and sprocket method. 
i do hope my thk45 bearing hold up. if my math is correct, each bearing is rated for around 2.2 kN meter, which equaled around like 1600 lbs of force, and my sawhead should weigh around 1200-1300 lbs, maybe 1400 lbs. and my power plant will be counter levering the head to the rear (putting a LOT of force on the top/bottom (lateral stress) sections of the bearings), with minimal side (radial load). if it seems to start binding, ill put the other 4 bearings on, which are the same mounting style as your bearings. iv got plenty of space (14-15") at the bottom to mount 2 more bearings, so it shouldn't be an issue. i don't want to run out of vertical limits. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on August 06, 2019, 01:14:59 AM
I would call it wishful thinking that you are going to need a full 78" of thread! ;)  You're planning on milling logs that are over 6' in diameter!

So, buy two 6' sticks and tack on a piece of regular rod if you need the length to reach the support bearings.  I would plan on a total head movement of 4', being conservative, 5' would be super conservative (or super-wishful)!

If the head is that heavy, I would seriously look into a counter balance to offset some of that weight.  Could even use garage door springs (straight or the torsion type) and pulleys that would serve the lower level area where you will spend a bit of your time.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on August 06, 2019, 01:18:06 AM
You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.
Keep the engine vertical, like it's meant to be. You run your belt to a jack shaft, both pulleys fairly equal in size, engine horizontal pulley to jack shaft vertical pulley with enough space for a 90 degree twist with the belt. Add a second pulley on the jack shaft to the band wheel pulley. Engine pulley needs to be lined up with the jack shaft and jack shaft pulley needs to be lined up with the crank shaft. Depending on which way you twist the belt determines which way the jack shaft turns.
Ray
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 06, 2019, 01:50:17 AM
I would call it wishful thinking that you are going to need a full 78" of thread! ;)  You're planning on milling logs that are over 6' in diameter!

So, buy two 6' sticks and tack on a piece of regular rod if you need the length to reach the support bearings.  I would plan on a total head movement of 4', being conservative, 5' would be super conservative (or super-wishful)!

If the head is that heavy, I would seriously look into a counter balance to offset some of that weight.  Could even use garage door springs (straight or the torsion type) and pulleys that would serve the lower level area where you will spend a bit of your time.
edited: "the 78" is to allow for around 3" on the bottom for coupling, 3", maybe a bit more for bearing and enough shaft at the top for a sprocket. so i reality i may only end up with a 70" height on the head. i guess those extra 3 or so inched up top could be welded and take up the but of rod going through the bearing and for sprocket attachment points. 

ill give a lot more thought, especially when i get hm, and hopefully the machine work if finished and i can saw head after it being at the machine shop for 5 months. he literally took "no rush" seriously"
 
i have a pecan that a lil under 6' on the log and a tad over 6' in the branch section. that limb that needs to come off isn't a big deal, i could lop it off with a chainsaw, but i want the cuts as flat as possible, so i can roll it 180, cut a flat section on the bottom, the roll it 90 and slice off the section for a bench, then slab out the rest. i also have another pecan that is a mangled mess, but its just under 6'. i guess i could measure down to my tallest cut, slab off the top, set it off to the side roll the log, and slab out the rest, then put the first cut back on and slab it.
i had thought of welding, but wasn't sure if it would hold up to the tq being applied. not saying i can't get penetration, but i have no way to, i guess call it, accurately re-thread the areas that have weld in the threading. plus lining them up perfectly, and keep them perfect during the welding.
ya'll keep saying garage door springs, but i can't for like of me figure out how to make that work. iv never really seen garage door springs, mostly bc iv never had a garage with a door, other than a sliding door that weighed about 40 lbs and was easy to lift and fling up the tracks.  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 06, 2019, 01:59:53 AM
You guys have me thinking now... What would it take to run a vertical V twin on its side... Probably just a new carb mount and repositioning the dip stick. Are they usually splash lubed or pumped? I imagine a pump could be repositioned maybe, or something could be added to the crank to flick oil in the right direction. Or the level could be changed so the crank dips... 🤔

For the price they're going around here it'd be safe enough to buy one just to experiment - I'd eventually come into one for free I think.
what about 1:1 90° gearbox? 
1:1 32 HP Right Angle Gearbox | Gearboxes | Gear Reducers & Gearboxes | Power Transmission | www.surpluscenter.com (https://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Gear-Reducers-Gearboxes/Gearboxes/1-1-32-HP-Right-Angle-Gearbox-13-1423.axd)
would have to find 1 for the hp, but the rpm could be slowed with a couple pulleys.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 06, 2019, 02:08:26 AM
Keep the engine vertical, like it's meant to be. You run your belt to a jack shaft, both pulleys fairly equal in size, engine horizontal pulley to jack shaft vertical pulley with enough space for a 90 degree twist with the belt. Add a second pulley on the jack shaft to the band wheel pulley. Engine pulley needs to be lined up with the jack shaft and jack shaft pulley needs to be lined up with the crank shaft. Depending on which way you twist the belt determines which way the jack shaft turns.
Ray
I thought about that, not sure I like the idea of a twisted belt wouldn't it cause a lot of heat and wasted power?

I got looking closely at a $1 reserve 24hp B&S vertical today, the pump is on the cylinder side of the sump so it would need to be mounted cylinders pointing down for it to even have a chance. No go on that one. Would have to go electric pump to make that work, and that'd need pressure sensors + alarms etc... I think I'll stick with a horizontal shaft, I've got enough going on and that will turn into a seperate project.

That sounds like a brute you are working on Charles. That was part of the reason I ended up turning my own screws I couldn't find a 'list' price for anything over 1m long and I hate calling up industrial companies for pizzly stuff like this. But I thought 1m would be plenty and I'd tack shaft to either end of it to put the thread in the right place.
4140 is expensive that will certainly add to the cost. For not much gain really, I doubt you'll need the strength and the stuff still rusts! Not as quick but rust is rust.

Don't think there's any need to turn weld out of threads? Your shafts would go to either end of the threads. Google the garage spring, basically a big torsion spring exerting torque on a shaft that is trying to 'wind up' your saw head by means of cable or whatever.

Considered a gearbox too. One big enough for 20-30hp is several hundred. That plus pissing around I'm getting back into the zone of just being better off buying the horizontal.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on August 06, 2019, 02:21:03 AM
For extending the threaded rod with non-threaded - use a sleeve.  Take a section of pipe and slip it over the end of each.  Or, lay a small section of angle iron - one on top, one on the bottom and clamp.  In the open areas on each side, tack it.  Remove the angle iron and tack the other two sides.  Roll it to check for straightness and weld some more.  As far as torque, there really won't be much stress on that.  More than 25 ft-lbs, I would be surprised.

Using springs.  Run a door spring (long coil spring made for tension) across the top of your mill head.  A cable goes from the end of the spring over a pulley to the bottom of your head and then around another so it is heading back up.  That cable is attached to a block pulley.  A cable from the top of the mast comes down around the block and back up to the top of the head.  When the head is all the way up, the block is at the bottom.  When the head goes down, the block goes up putting tension on the cable from the spring.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Spring_Assist.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565072183)
 
As the spring pulls to the right, it pulls the block down and moves the head up 1/2 the distance.  If you use a really powerful spring (or multiple springs in parallel), then you would increase the block to multiple sheaves (wheels) adding a multi-sheave pulley up on the top of the mast.  The idea being the spring doesn't expand and contract a lot to move (assist) a great movement of the head.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 06, 2019, 02:55:45 AM
For extending the threaded rod with non-threaded - use a sleeve.  Take a section of pipe and slip it over the end of each.  Or, lay a small section of angle iron - one on top, one on the bottom and clamp.  In the open areas on each side, tack it.  Remove the angle iron and tack the other two sides.  Roll it to check for straightness and weld some more.  As far as torque, there really won't be much stress on that.  More than 25 ft-lbs, I would be surprised.
according to matt creamona, the guy i bought the plans off, that built his mill first, it took 38 ft lbs (not sure if he used a spring scale or tq wrench to obtain that number) to lift and 25 to lower it, by turning 1 of the acme rods, which of course turned the other. 
i see what you are saying bout extending. i used coupling instead of sleeve, but yes, we are talking bout the same thing. i could use a 3/32 rod, amped up for penetration, the do a little clean up with a dremel. it would definitely be cheaper than buying more than needed, at least buy 2 from the same folks,, then get up with mc master carr or surplus center and buy a short section for adding to the other rods and enough to make a screw jack for my tensioning. i wish i could find a bronze flange nut that didn't cost an arm and 2 toes. i think mc master carr wants $232 per flange nut in 1.5-5
thank you for the inspiration. i say/heard $$$$ and decided to go back to sprockets and chains. but ya'll have given me hope
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on August 06, 2019, 10:52:33 AM
and decided to go back to sprockets and chains.

Gears and chains are not necessarily a bad thing.  

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_Lift_gearing_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1436587345)

There are 4 stages of reduction, IIRC.  Was something like 5 revolutions to raise/lower 1 inch.  When originally built, there was little friction and it could free-fall when the handle was not locked (push that black ball into some holes).

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_Lift_gearing_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1436587345)

That turned the center sprocket above which drove the front and back sprockets to take the power to the other side of the head.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_Lift_gearing_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1436587386)

The vertical chain is fixed to the top of the saw frame.  It passes under driven sprockets and over the an idler sprocket.  The chain wraps a little more than half the driven sprocket.  A coil spring (below, at the end of the cant) can be seen at the bottom keeping tension on the chain so it doesn't hop a tooth.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_guard_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1437091121)

The handle was replaced with a wheelchair motor and some switches.  A lot more fun to operate!

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20180904_a.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1536070474)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 06, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
 I'd run your screw as far inboard as you could, i.e. on the inboard rim of that sides wheel or whatever is closer that would otherwise interfere with a log.
I was doing some thinking drinkn last night. If i weld on a 12” section of 5”x5”x1/4” tubing on the outside of my carriage vertical tubing, cut an opening in the top that would allow the coupling to go inside the 5x5 tubing, that would give me 4.5” extra hight. Im also thinking that by picking up 8-10” behind the sawhead, that would help with the counter balance from the engine. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 09, 2019, 10:51:03 PM
Well this week has been a bit of a gong show really, no progress just finding and fixing dumb things.

I went to order bearings and pillows from an engineering company on Thursday. Had them on the bench and the price came to about $60 more than on their website I said surely you can do it for the website price, I'll give cash and walk away it's done. But nope, can't be done. So they put them away, I made an account, ordered, they got them out again, packaged them (free freight on them...) and I still haven't got them by the weekend... I can't really do much until I see how things lie with the shafts in place. Seems to be a blanket rule in NZ for these engineering companies to be massive assholes to any new face walking off the street.

Anyway...
I noticed the beam must have reared up slightly when I welded the gussets on the bearing tongues. Also figured this is what was binding the lead screw nuts, plus the old weld was so thick I couldn't get full size washers on the bottom bolts so there was enough reasons to cut the gussets and start again. Now it's dead level and looks a lot better.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190808_200036.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402796)
 

I did weld up a box to go over the end of the beam, I hope there is enough support. I thought about welding in a length of flat bar in the last ~400mm of the beam and plug welding it's edges to add strength but looking at it I'm not sure it's necessary.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190807_204901.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402793)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190807_210334.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402793)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190810_134504.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402802)
 

Again the cooling weld got the better of me, it is certainly my achilles heel. I shimmed it and welded it and waited that evening until I could pick it up with bare hands, it slipped on like a glove. The next morning was fairly cold and I could only get it on about half way. All the grinding and pounding I could throw at it didn't seem to fix it. I scratched my head for a while and ended up finding a pair of bolts that fit in it and backed nuts off them while jammed inside it to lever it open a bit. Re-tacked and it fit nicely. Nice little trick to remember.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190808_192641.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402796)
 

Welded plate on the other end of the beam about the same size so heights match and will weld second plates which I'll tap for bearings when the blocks arrive. I'm thinking I will extend the plate out quite far from the beam and support it with a gusset, then fix the rear bearing in place with threads and mill slots for the front bearing. This will mean the wheels swing as you adjust tracking but I think fixable with tension. I'm a little worried the slotted holes in the pillow blocks won't be enough for tracking adjustment on their own?

4140 shaft arrived but again I want to wait on the bearings before I start them. Engine also arrived, I went with a 22hp V twin Sina which is a Loncin I think.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190809_162002.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402797)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190809_162013.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402798)
 

I took air box off to drain carb bowl etc and plumb fuel line when I went to put it back on I noticed one of these collars wasn't in the hole which prevent the bolt crushing the plastic...

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190809_190625.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402800)
 

Of course the only logical place it might have gone is down the intake... :'(
I swept the floors then turned the flippn shed upside-down looking for it. Crawled around the engine with a flash light looking in nooks and crannies, hoisted it 6ft in the air and did the same thing. Spent about 2 hours looking for something that may not even exist...

I turned another one on the lathe anyway and put it back together, pretty much welcoming the engine to chew itself to bits so at least I could find it but, it didn't. I got it started and running full noise up to temp, all that drama aside it is a honey of an engine I'm pretty happy with it.

Other than that added a few other nothing bits. Gusset+Skid plate to the trailer hitch and chain tensioner.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190808_200258.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402797)
 

I clamped a bit of round bar and hung the wheel on it trying to figure out where my bottle jack should go (which does work on its side I've learned). It would be easy enough to put it under the beam and I'd lose 3" of cut at that point - would it matter given what I've got? Top of the beam won't work, and I think the back of the beam will add force trying to twist off the sleeve which is already what's trying to happen.

Once the plate/gusset go on I could weld a little arm that extends past the linear bearing and put the jack on the front of the beam which would be most ideal force wise, least ideal effort wise. Is it worth doing?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190810_130459.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1565402801)
 

Next week should be a busy week I'll hopefully have running wheels with an engine mounted. Will get a blade ordered as soon as I know what the length is looking like
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JEverettM on August 09, 2019, 11:01:00 PM
When you welded up the box to slide over the beam, how much did you shim between the beam and the plates? I was thinking of doing something similar, but don't know how much shim to include.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on August 09, 2019, 11:35:10 PM
When you welded up the box to slide over the beam, how much did you shim between the beam and the plates? I was thinking of doing something similar, but don't know how much shim to include.
when i did my box, i used 3 layers of aluminum tape on 2 sides and after welding, that wasn't enough for me. as with josh, all the hammer blows wouldn't force it on, well, i take that back I'm sure i could hammered it till it went on, but i know it would been a booger getting it off, seeing as i still had to hammer it off and it was only half way on. try 3-4 3x5 index cards on 2 sides. the guy i got my plans from used 3 or 4, can't remember, i think (90%) 4, and he had about 0.020" of wobble in his. i used a sanding disk on a grinder and ended up with about 0.040" of wobble. I'm gonna fix that buy putting a layer of hysol epoxy on my beam on 2 sides and depending, maybe the other 2 sides if i still have to much wobble. the best part is, with a lil lube, that hysol is about as slick as owl poop on a hickory limb and it take a lot of sanding to get it off and lays in nice and thin, or thick, depending the end requirements. but at $90 a pint, I'm glad mine was "expired" as far as the company shelf life policy, but it still works.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 10, 2019, 01:02:36 AM
I used a bit of card I found ahha, not ideal. That was after a 10 minute look around. Something about .5mm on two sides would be ideal, on the shoulders not the hollow middles. It's less about clearance and more about which way it shrinks which welds you hit first last etc which I have no clue about really.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 10, 2019, 10:29:49 AM
For spacers I always use a 1/2" grade 8 washer. Relatively consistent in size and it doesn't burn when you get to close. Plus you only need one to cover 2 sides.

I dunno about you but I always have some in stock :)

Looking good. you should work on short welds and alternate welding locations. that will minimize the heat twist that you are getting. Or if you can balance the welding by doing a short weld in one place then going and doing the same thing on the opposite side they will keep each other flat.

welding is alot more than just sticking 2 pieces of steel together. Especially when you need them to mate or slide.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JustinW_NZ on August 11, 2019, 04:17:10 AM
Build looks good!
What part of NZ you in Josh?
(Im in Nelson)

Cheers
Justin
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 11, 2019, 06:55:12 AM
I know the theory, short welds and placing so their tension opposes etc it's just not always practical. Short welds never look good with stick it's hard to tie in seemlessly.

Tauranga here Justin.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Dana Stanley on August 11, 2019, 07:55:08 AM
I know the theory, short welds and placing so their tension opposes etc it's just not always practical. Short welds never look good with stick it's hard to tie in seamlessly.

Tauranga here Justin.
Hindsight is everything. If you were to do that weld again, you could put bar stock in between  so when it freezes its restrained from shrinking. you would need a plan to get it out after like heat the bar stock then let it cool, or evenly heat the unit and remove it while hot. you could have also tried heating the plate opposite the weld side. Easier to analyze these issues than to anticipate a problem. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 11, 2019, 02:08:42 PM
What also work is to heat a section then rapid cool it. that will cause the steel to pull. WOrks great for straightening driveshafts.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 18, 2019, 02:13:36 AM
Another slow week for me. Got called into work a couple of times and the bearings didn't arrive for 8 days >=(.

Anyway. I welded some plates one to the sleeve one to the other end of the beam. I'd bought some 12mm flat bar 180mm wide I got sick of scraping rust off that bit of scrap. I thought 180 would be wide enough but turns out not, so welded two together with a deep weld and machined the warp out of them.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190811_134338.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104095)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190811_151228.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104095)
 

Next did the shafts, started with a bit of 40mm 4140 and only had to go down to 38.1 for the bearing journals (1.5"). 38mm for the Wheels. Turned the pulley section to 30mm which was a number I picked out of my head.

They both came out really good which was a relief cause this was going to be easy for me to screw up! All finishing cuts so no chip breaking, I slashed the pad right off my thumb trying to pull strings clear of the last cut... Made the rest of the week pretty difficult.
Both went into the freezer and one slipped into bearing pairs well the next morning, the other I had to drive on and is never coming off but that shouldn't be a problem.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190815_220213.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104096)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190815_230323.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104097)
 

I added pads and gussets for the jack to sit on and push against. I've got a hydraulic gauge arriving in the mail next week I think I'll just be able to tap into the base somewhere, or the pump cavity.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190818_114925.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104098)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190818_115626.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104099)
 

I think I'll turn a little socket and weld it to the plate for the jack to press against and maybe cut a small cylinder of rubber engine mount to sit in there. Or I could leave an air bubble in the jack too, as long as it never completely closes (which it can't) it won't bleed it out. I tried this and it gives quite a soft spring effect. Any thoughts? It's quite bouncy if I stand on it.

I added rubber shims to the lifting nuts, has quietened it down a lot and enabled adjustment of alignment. If the lead screw is binding, a quarter turn on one bolt frees it, another quarter binds again. I can set it in the middle and it has freed things up considerably. I'm learning the process/order of things with setup, bearing position, bar levelling, screw torque, all have to happen in the right order as they all affect each other.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190818_000353.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104098)
 

I got the wheels on and ran a bit of pallet strapping around them just to see how it looks, and I'll be able to cut and measure for a blade length. I sighted along the wheels before tightening up the pillow blocks and the band ran dead straight on the wheels straight off the bat which is pretty encouraging. Means my threads are in the ball park and probably there is some crowning effect working too.

Starting to look like a mill!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190818_143541.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566104099)
 

I will probably get started on the engine mount next. I measured an audio recording of it today and got 3790RPM at full speed. The only centrifugal clutch I can find for 25hp is 140mm diameter so looking at the Band calculator here, I'll need another pulley as big as the band wheel which will only get it down to 5470fpm on the blade. So I'll either need to get the drive pulley way way down and do a belt tensioning clutch, or run a jackshaft, or fork out for another big pulley... Again, any thoughts...?
One thought I had about direct driving is I'll have to hang the engine way off the back of the beam to get the pulleys to line up. Which might be ok it's hard to tell how everything balances now.

My belts only sit up about 1.5mm (1/16") of the pulley lip, is this ok or should I take them down a bit?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 18, 2019, 09:07:28 AM
I have a 19 band wheel with a 14" drive pulley being driven by a 4" centrifugal clutch. My speeds seem perfect.

as foo the 1/16" as long as the blade does not contact the metal wheel your fine but I would not expect 1/16 to last long. A good hot day and some milling will probably push the belt deeper into the groove and could cause you problems. The belt on my wheels holds the blade at least 1/4" above the wheel lips.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on August 18, 2019, 09:20:11 AM
My belts ride about 1/16" above the pulleys when new.  I wish it was a little more and I'd turn the pulleys down a little if I had a lathe with enough swing.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Brad_bb on August 18, 2019, 04:26:26 PM
Where did your design come from Josh?  Maybe I missed that in a previous post?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 18, 2019, 05:57:44 PM
I don't really have a design it is sort of dribbling out of my head as I go, which might be obvious. Lots of looking around here.

It does mean I've run into the odd roadblock - one being that the saw wheels are going to contact the trailer wheels when bottomed out as it is. They're spare car wheels on it now, I think flipping the axle from under slung to over slung and putting 13" trailer rims on it will solve that.

I will take down the pulleys a little going on what you guys are saying. My lathe does have a gap I can remove but I would prefer not to if I can get away without. I was thinking I'll just setup a tool post next to the wheel installed on the sawmill and hit it with a flap disc lightly while spinning somehow. Someone on a crank or I have a geared electric motor there somewhere. Will wait until the pulleys are installed to do that.

Punching those numbers in crusarius you are bang on. Definitely helps to get that drive pulley size down. It will be about $150 minimum to get a clutch to NZ, makes the belt tensioning lever appealing.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 18, 2019, 06:00:50 PM
Maybe I will just go with a clutch, less mucking around. The best I can find in NZ is one for $140NZ/$90US. But it's 5.5" which means I'll need a 17" driven pulley or jackshaft (which I think would be cheaper).

Anyone know of a better deal..?

There is a used electric ride-on clutch for sale for $90 here maybe that's worth jumping on? No specs on it but ones like it say they are rated for 80ft-lbs which should do it? Edit: Actually it's a TG2000 for a lawn tractor. They're rated 105ft-lbs with a 1" bore or 125ft-lbs with a 1-1/8". The V-twin is 45NM@2600RPM that's only 33ft-lb the engine can produce. I'm not missing anything here am I? Seems a no brainer
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 19, 2019, 07:20:31 AM
one being that the saw wheels are going to contact the trailer wheels when bottomed out as it is. They're spare car wheels on it now, I think flipping the axle from under slung to over slung and putting 13" trailer rims on it will solve that.


Mine has that same problem. I just make sure I jack up the trailer high enough to clear the tires. The first time I forget though its going to be epic :)

Punching those numbers in crusarius you are bang on. Definitely helps to get that drive pulley size down. It will be about $150 minimum to get a clutch to NZ, makes the belt tensioning lever appealing.


My clutch cost 310 so your not doing so bad. But I also used a double belt clutch.

I like the centrifugal clutch. Never like hearing belts squeal when you engage them.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Brad_bb on August 19, 2019, 10:32:22 PM
 I don't really have a design it is sort of dribbling out of my head as I go, which might be obvious. Lots of looking around here.


I thought you might be using Matt Cremona's plans....
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 20, 2019, 06:47:01 PM
I watched through his videos quite a while ago actually so I have probably had seeds planted no doubt but, but it's definitely a follow my nose project.

I modified the engine exhaust today, what do you guys think haha will be popular with the neighbours  ;D


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_212030.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336402)
 

Just kidding... Going back to the start, I clamped the engine somewhere near where it would live and saw the muffler is going to max out the saw beam height at less than 800mm/31" cut. Less if I put runners on the bed. Probably wasn't a huge deal but I thought it was a waste since the width will be near 40".

As it was, the exhaust was going to be blasting into the operators face so another reason to change it. Now both engine exhaust and blade exhaust are out the same side away from operator.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190819_150158.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336597)
 

Spent ages trying to imagine where the muffler could go. This side it would heat the oil cooler, other side it would block the dip stick and heat electronics, ontop it obstructs the throttle but that will have a cable anyway so it seemed the best place.

The engine doesn't have 'Made in China' written anywhere on it, but holy goodness the muffler is another story.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190819_163911.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336974)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190819_163918.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336969)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190819_151033.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336968)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190819_151228.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566336968)
 

Mig wire still stuck to the beads, or gaps where the bead has missed the joint completely. One of the headers is sticking right through the exhaust flange so it can't seal on the head. And the whole thing leaks obviously, through 3-4 different holes in the seams. I think Loncin put this muffler on all their V-twin models so be warned, while the engine looks ok the mufflers must be boxes of sh*t!

I tried to salvage the original flanges but they were made of cheese and fill of weld, the holes weren't centred, etc etc... So started again from 12mm plate. I don't have a tube bender so went with the pie cut method after a quick youtube tutorial, and since it was going to be a fairly tight sweep I went up as big as I could in tube diameter before the stud nuts wouldn't fit. The old tube was 22mmID and the new is 27mmID so hopefully I haven't created a flow restriction.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_152929.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566339315)


Blasted all the joints, then flapped it back to roughly smooth, then lapped the flanges on a tile and some sandpaper. Only took about 5 minutes to remove all the marker pen showing weld distortion.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_204632.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566339317)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_205459.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566339317)
 

After this I clamped the muffler in space roughly where it should go and it was a matter of fit, grind, fit grind, until I made two pipes that joined the gap.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_162149.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566339316)
 

One good thing about the engine is it has threaded mounting holes everywhere, there are two on the other side of the engine that I'll take struts from which should form a nice solid triangle.

I'm not sure how long the muffler will last, it feels like a decent backfire would peel it open so maybe this isn't it's final shape anyway. I'll sandblast and paint once I find some heat paint.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190820_232643.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566340842)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 22, 2019, 08:29:48 AM
Finished the struts and put the shroud back on it today. Gave it a good ring out once I had the mount finished and the exhaust is melting the air box =/... Bit stumped as to what to do with that one.

I seem to be creating problems quicker than I'm solving them at the moment.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190822_154303.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566476415)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190822_220933.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566476418)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190822_220959.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566476416)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 22, 2019, 09:21:03 AM
have a piece of 16 gauge stainless? Just make a quick heat shield for the air box. need about 1/2" gap or enough to get the cover off.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on August 25, 2019, 07:12:41 PM
I didn't have any stainless and I think if I'd left an adequate gap the airbox lid wouldn't have come off. I've gone a bit more funky. Been stuck at work last few days so not getting far.

How are clutches/pulleys secured to the engine shaft usually? I have a 1/4" keyway on both shaft and clutch and a thread in the end of the shaft, do I just turn collars for each side of the clutch and put a bolt with a big washer/head in the end of the crank?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190823_172500.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566774658)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on August 25, 2019, 07:30:40 PM
if you got the right size clutch should just slide it right on with a key and then bolt into the crank with big washer.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 02, 2019, 04:22:41 AM
I guess I got the wrong one 'cause it didn't fit like that. I turned a little collar to hold it just proud of the end of the shaft then a big thick washer for the end. I may split the collar yet if I need to reposition the clutch on the shaft but it all looks to be lining up.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190828_142937.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411431)
 

I got the muffler sealed up and gave it a good burn, seems to be right this time. Don't think it looks too out of place does it  :-\


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190828_130637.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411431)
 

I welded a plate half way between the engine and drive wheel for a jackshaft. Put 25mm pillow blocks on it and turned a shaft with a keyway for it today. You can prob tell I'm getting bored with this rubbish I'm posting now, my plans have been foiled by the postman once again with the pulleys now 4 days late >:(.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190831_204229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411436)
 

The pulleys I ordered have just a casting hole so I'll need to bore and key them, I made this tool today with a bit of scrap and hope to cut the internal keyways on the mill or lathe the manual way, will see how it goes.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190902_155130.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411436)
 

Also had some aluminium offcuts lying around which I decided would make good belt tensioners. Rather than sliding the engine or jackshaft or whatever I'll just stick these at the end of an arm on each belt and take up the slack. I haven't used aluminium before I wish I could make everything from it!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190831_115626.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411433)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190831_164208.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567411434)
 

I wondered if anyone has ever made log clamps or back stops out of round bar rather than box section? I still have quite a bit of 35mm bar left and it's rusting and a bit of a nuisance. Is there any reason they have to be square/flat?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 02, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
I got the muffler sealed up and gave it a good burn, seems to be right this time. Don't think it looks too out of place does it 


That looks mine. Eliminates alot of other issues. ONly things to worry about is height when sawframe is all the way up and I would definitely put a rain cap on that. Otherwise, first thing in the morning your going to get a very bad shower.

I haven't used aluminium before I wish I could make everything from it!


Aluminum is a dream to work with compared to some of the tool steels I end up having to use or 430fr. Don't care much for that but always end up needing to use it.

I wondered if anyone has ever made log clamps or back stops out of round bar rather than box section? I still have quite a bit of 35mm bar left and it's rusting and a bit of a nuisance. Is there any reason they have to be square/flat?


Only reason I used square is because the cost difference was almost 2:1 in favor of square. Round would be fine. The only thing I can think would be challenging with round is what you use for log clamps. For mine I used square and hinged an arm to flip up and contact the log. With round it is a hinge so you can avoid that step. The only thing you would need to do is make it lock in place to clamp the log. I am sure you can figure something out for it. :)

The round is not going to be as strong as a rectangular section would be but depending on where they are located and how long of a span they will work just fine.

The build is looking great. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 04, 2019, 05:46:05 AM
I'll keep scratching my head about that one. I have some 12mm plate left I may make it out of that and hinge it on the round bar.

The little key cutting tool worked a treat and jackshaft went together pretty well. I think I will leave the second belt with no tensioner and just slide the pillow blocks.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190903_143328.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567589516)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190904_120805.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567589516)
 

I've got 1015RPM on the drive wheel now so... 4900FPS. The governor can be adjusted either way still but I guess thats a starting point.

I really wish I'd left more room on the plates to add a tracking adjustment but there's no room between the pillow blocks and verticals of the frame for bolts in threads/nuts. Didn't see the big picture at the start unfortunately. I turned little bolts with eccentric heads then drilled holes beside the pillows. It works alright on the bench but we'll see.

Should the pillows/bolts hold their position with the band tension alone or will they definitely need support to stop from creeping along?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190904_190936.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567589519)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190904_192930.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567589517)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190904_201841.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567589518)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 04, 2019, 08:30:05 AM
I like the eccentrics. I see a bunch of space to do threaded bolt there. all I did was drill and tap a piece of 1/2" x 1" stock then welded it to the plate next to the pillow block bearing. Just ran a bolt with a nut through it to tighten it.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/IMG_2128.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505908880)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 04, 2019, 11:03:39 AM
That's all I've got there. I started to do it but realised there is just no room, I could barely fit a bolt head + 12mm plate let alone a locking nut too, it's even tighter on the other side which I haven't got to yet.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567608269)
 

I must have been tired or drunk this after noon I drilled out the M12 bolt holes in the plates and tapped for M14 hoping to get a bit more torque on them, and it looks as though I did it while standing on my head or something. Hopefully crooked bolts won't harm it.

Do you have adjustment bolts on both your forward and rear pillow block or just one of them? I hoped to set the eccentrics centred on the front pillow, align wheel by sight by adjusting rear pillow, torque it up, then fine tune with eccentrics without touching the other block. Which will work providing the rear pillow block doesn't creep along on its own as tension come on. I haven't got my gauge on the jack yet so I have no idea where I'm at with tension, I took it up the other day until the blade made a ping noise when flicking it and all I did was drag the pillow blocks along their slots. Maybe that's way over doing it though I don't know yet.

One thing has got me stumped looking at the cooks roller guide assemblies. What the heck is going inside the block behind the roller. It would make sense if it were just one whole shaft but it looks like a key/shaft at the back, and zerk bolt at the front are two pieces  ???. I'll have to scurry off to your thread and see how you did it
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 04, 2019, 11:15:19 AM
I used 3 adjuster bolts and one fixed pivot for the pillow blocks. That is one area in the Linn plans I did not vary from.

I would definitely make an eccentric for each bearing, except the one that has the fixed stop. This is another one of the linn parts I kept. This is just and eccentric with a bolt to hold it in place. It is surprising how this little bit of holding has made a world of difference for not allowing any movement.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/IMG_2140.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505908876)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 04, 2019, 11:26:39 AM
What am I looking at in that photo?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 04, 2019, 11:44:26 AM
that is the adjustable blade guide arm. the black circle is the eccentric for keeping it in place.

loosen the t-bolt then slide the guide in and out.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 05, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
That's what I thought. I'm ok with the positioning of the guide it's more the angle adjustment I'm confused about. I think I have an idea in my head though.

I ended up putting those eccentric bolts on both pillows of each side. I'm actually really happy with them. I only had a 4mm end mill which I thought was big but turns out you can poke a screw driver into them sideways and get a ton of leverage on it, they seem to work great.

I turned roller guides today out of the left over 40mm 4140. Will try and put together some kind of shaft/tube tomorrow.

Did you put rubber under your engine or straight metal on metal? And.. I was watching some of cooks videos and heard him say ideal adjustment for guides is with the back of the band running at about the end of the first groove (in my case, ~2mm from the lip of the guide). I would have thought you'd bring the guide up to the back of the band so it's barely touching when unloaded?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190906_001039.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567690089)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 05, 2019, 09:35:28 AM
Maybe it's just the perspective in the picture but those guides look too wide for the blade width.  If the blade moves back any more it will take the set out of the blade.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 05, 2019, 09:40:38 AM
My engine is straight metal on metal. Even if I put rubber there the bolts would have held it tight so it did not matter. Plus my engine is in slotted holes for belt tensioning.

You definitely want more than 2mm spacing on the back of the blade. When you push the blade will deflect and contact the flange. This is not good. I have a little over 1/8" on both.

I do have to agree with btulloh about the guide width.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 05, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
I can remount and knock a bevel off the front if needed but it must be close, the blade is against the back of the guide in the photo and reaches maybe 1mm short of the gullet. How far back should it be?

I had the idea in my head the blade rode that flange for support. Like a workshop wood bandsaw. Lucky
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 05, 2019, 05:36:59 PM
If the blade is behind the gullet, you're ok.  Might be worth checking with Cooks to see what the official story is.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 05, 2019, 06:00:22 PM
It is definitely behind the gullet but you're right it is close, maybe .5mm.

Might be a bit rude calling cooks seeing I've not purchased anything from them hah. Will see what others here think. A bevel on the nose of the guide won't harm anything will it. That'll give up to 2-3mm more relief if I had to.

Thanks for mentioning it!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190906_095117.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567720623)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 05, 2019, 06:21:27 PM
Seems like a bevel would cure it, if it's a problem.  Most I see have more blade forward of the rollers.  

A Woodmizer manual would have something about it, if you want to check that.  No doubt some others will chime in this evening, so that should clear it up anyway.

If it's at the back flange in the picture, it can't move any further back, but you might find yourself running a blade with a deeper gullet some day.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on September 05, 2019, 07:39:05 PM
Be sure that the blade guides have some horizontal tilt so that if/when the back of the blade contacts the flange, the blade is pulled into contact with the guide by the flange.  Yup, a bit of scraping takes place as the blade passes under the blade guides.  In the final setup the guides will exert about ¼" deflection below the bandwheels and be absolutely parallel with the sawmill bed.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 06, 2019, 09:22:30 AM
Got it, that makes sense.

I pretty well copied the cooks guide loosely. I bull-nosed a drill bit for round-tipped bolts to hold the front of the shank and flats at the back for the guide bolts (after rounding the flats too then filling with weld  :) hence its new colour)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190906_142038.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567775476)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190906_163054.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567775476)
 


Rather than using front bolts to set the roller height I made the whole arm telescopic. I've not welded it together but there's an idea of how its going to work.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190907_001911.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567775480)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190907_000857.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567775478)


Just the sliding guide to go and I'll be able to run a test cut I think
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 07, 2019, 06:49:26 AM
I tracked the blade today and ran the engine up. The whole band gets a pretty wild standing wave in the top of it  :o

Not sure where to start with it, it seems like an engine vibration type frequency rather than wobbly wheels or something. I may have to make isolation mounts for it?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: TreeStandHunter on September 07, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Josh you should post a video of the wave. Does the blade have proper tension?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 07, 2019, 07:14:17 AM
I still haven't got my pressure gauge yet so not sure what I'm running. I tried varying it from loose to solid. The engine does cause a rattle in the whole frame at about 3600, if I push passed it to 3700 it smooths out.

Will take a video in daylight tomorrow. I've just been looking at bobbin mounts they look like they'd prob be worth having anyway?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on September 07, 2019, 07:22:54 AM
I'll have to look for a picture but the top gets a "damper" between the bandwheels.  Mine is an adjustable bolt but some mills use a wood block adjusted about 1/8th inch above the blade.

Edit:  Nope, I do not have a picture.  Guess that I was remembering what is in my operator's manual.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on September 07, 2019, 07:49:39 AM
Harmonics in fabricated structures can drive you mad if you let them. You need pretty fancy software to predict resonant frequencies in such things and frankly I don't think it's worth it. The condition exists. The good news is that these can be countered in strange and simple ways such as MM indicates. That is a direct method and probably the best and simplest. A spring load idler wheel would likely work too. The other alternative is to change the resonant frequency, but given that it is a long blade it could get very complicated because I suspect it is low frequency. The top of the blade is non-functional so how far do you want. or need to go? Your solution could be as simple as a few small weld gussets to shunt the vibration in a different direction. Just discussing here to give you some different thoughts. Likely you have already run these through your head. Given your skills, I have have no doubt you will nail it down.
 Good luck, I am enjoying your build!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 07, 2019, 06:54:00 PM
I've run all sorts through my head but by all means don't stop the suggestions haha.

I think I'll do three things, I'll take the engine back up to 3700RPM where the frame is happy and re size the last pulley to suit. Put it on bobbin mounts which can't hurt. And I'll see what I've got by then if it's still making a wave I'll figure out where the nodes are and put an idler beside one
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 07, 2019, 09:17:11 PM
Did you cut anything? you will find that once the blade enters the log the bounce goes away.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 07, 2019, 10:04:18 PM
I wouldn't have gone near it in a bomb disposal suit never mind cut anything, I'm talking a standing wave with a 2+ inch amplitude :o.

I've learned a few things one being the jack was creeping. I don't know if it had a bubble in the cylinder that had to leak out past the ring or if there was a bit of crap in the seat but it doesn't seem to be doing it now. I took the engine up to 3700RPM and with the jack staying put it seems to be a lot better. I have added a video below, can you guys tell what sort of tension I'm at from a tap? I've never actually seen a sawmill in flesh and have no equipment yet so I'm absolutely guessing.

The band is still a bit fuzzy but that's with no guides yet.

I think I could probably find a set of these bobbins for $100. I know why you wouldn't if your belt drove your drive wheel but I do have a jackshaft with an idler, I think it'd prob be a well spent hundred..?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/Bobbin.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1567908157)
 

Runup - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wIcgZ_vYrLw)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 08, 2019, 08:29:50 AM
I got most of the other guide done today. Just a piece of turned rod sliding in some tube with a bit of angle iron slotted on one side for vertical adjustment and the other for forward/back. I'm going to add a rod of the same size running along the beam and support it from that also, maybe by a brass bush in split clamps or something I'm not sure yet.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190908_190905.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567944643)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190908_215737.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567944643)
 

It's got about every adjustment other than time travel...

How close do the guides need to be able to get? I just eyeballed a piece before putting it on the lathe and I'm wondering if I've come up a bit short now. Say 15 inches?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190908_220040.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567944646)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 08, 2019, 09:35:11 AM
15" is probably fine.  I have mine set at 20-25" and I just don't adjust it much at all.  Even when I'm down to slicing off 2x4s.

I do have a question:  How are you keeping the rod from twisting and messing up your roller angle?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 08, 2019, 11:24:57 AM
Can't ask for much smoother than that.

I agree 15" is fine. lots of times I just leave the guide all the way out and keep cutting. Seems every time I move it in I forget and have to stop cutting to move it out then resume my cut.

I really like how your guides came out. My version 2.0 will be using something very similar.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 08, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
15" is probably fine.  I have mine set at 20-25" and I just don't adjust it much at all.  Even when I'm down to slicing off 2x4s.

I do have a question:  How are you keeping the rod from twisting and messing up your roller angle?
I will mount a second rod to the saw beam running parallel with the main rod and join the blade guide assembly to it with a sliding bush or something. That should add strength in the vertical direction and stop any twisting about the main rod.

I found some rubber bobbins for $8.50/ea on rs-online. Can't hurt to try at that price 😬

I've been looking at switches etc do I just want two push button momentaries for height adjustment, or do you guys like to have a selector switch too so you can walk away when it lifts for a new log etc.. I've never milled before I'm only guessing what might be practical. Limit switches too..? I'm imagining a control panel on the carriage wall with cut height and another control panel on the saw beam with throttle/choke/ignition. Rather than flexing all those wires/cables all day to the fixed control box.

I've got a bunch of spare Atmel processors too I could implement functions like double tap for continuous lift and speed adjustments etc taking the pith? What will I wish I had haha
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 08, 2019, 02:45:22 PM
When I did my raise lower setup I wanted to make an arduino controlled setup to give me a pseudo setworks. My thought was being able to punch in board size and hit go. Then hit repeat to continue making that size cut. Or type a new size and let it go.

I also wanted a home button so I can just hit it and go load the next log. When I get back the head would be high enough to start my cut. another variation of that was limit switch mounted to a magnet. Hit the up key and let it shutoff when it hits the switch wherever I place it. The limit switch would be better than always having a constant home. So that would minimize excess head movement.

Right now I have momentary up and down switch that works well with my log scale. My biggest issue I have is only 1 pointer on the log scale means I cannot change board thickness without doing alot of math.

I like what I have but the home or limit switch would be great when fetching the next log.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: luap on September 08, 2019, 05:18:46 PM
Your engine size will also depend on the band you are pulling.  Will it be 1¼" or 1½"?  The bigger, the more tension and the more HP you will need.  I'm pulling a 1¼" and "upgraded" to a twin 18hp.  I'd like 20 or 22 hp after using it a couple years now cutting up to 28".

Tracking like that should work.  You WILL need tracking adjustments on both the powered and the idle wheels.

Using a bottle jack would work great, IF it will work in that position.  Might not.
Bottle jacks will work horizontal if the pump is positioned on the bottom.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 09, 2019, 06:38:53 AM
Cool idea Crusarius I hadn't thought of using it like that. Would need an encoder of some sort on the saw head. I'll get it sawing with buttons first think I'm getting ahead of myself.

I added the second rod and strut today, thought I'd have a short day and finish early but it was a real pain getting everything aligned. Still it seems to work pretty good.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190909_191029.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568023691)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190909_191406.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568023689)
 

It's got a slight bit of flex forward and back as there is nothing stabilising it in that direction but, in/out and up/down (the one that counts I guess) it is rock solid.

I added gussets to the static guide to stiffen it up as well.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190909_191225.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568023687)
 

I do have one thing bugging me, is it normal for the tracking to change quite significantly as tension is changed? I've got it riding maybe 1mm off the back of the wheel at what I think is about the right tension, if I let it all go and turn the wheels I think the blade would literally walk right off the wheel.
Which I guess means something is flexing, but the belts are flexible, is this just normal flex? If it's the structure flexing - does it matter, if it's stable?

The flipn jack is playing up again too. I'll clean it out when I tap it for the gauge and if it doesn't come right it'll have to go in the bin. To dump tension while sawing would be pretty dangerous.

I found some dirt cheap isolation mounts too! On a local auction site, I called the guy when I saw the price and said what's going on here he said yep you're right, they're end of line stock for us we're getting rid of them in packs of 10. Big 75mm M12 mounts worth $50 for $2.70 each  8). So I have 6 spare if anyone wants to try them  thumbs-up
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 09, 2019, 07:12:27 AM
Looks good. if your using a stepper motor for raise and lower you would not need an encoder. But if you want an encoder my thought was to cannibalize a scroll wheel off an old mouse and place it in a spot that would be relatively dust free.

My hardest issue I am having is just wiring. since my head moves up and down 36" I have the electric switch and motor for raise and lower mounted on the fixed part of the frame, the engine and battery are mounted on the moving part. So I have long wires just dangling in space.

Really need to see about cleaning them up. I hate having wires in the way.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 09, 2019, 07:37:40 AM
You can't wrap them all in loom and have one loop that rolls back and forth? I'm not planning on carrying my fuel on the saw head either so will have that line to deal with as well.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 09, 2019, 07:39:19 AM
I have some in a loom but with the locations of everything it would be 3 looms. I may figure it out one day.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 09, 2019, 07:43:29 PM
@JoshNZ (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) could yo pm me the site link with those isolator mounts? id like to do some research and see their capacity and figure how many i would need, IF, that is even an option for my power plant. 
as with ya'll's wiring and fuel line debacle, i too am thinking of where to put my control panel. i would like an all in 1, or maybe a double decker similar to the setworks/accuset boxes, definitely with easy arms/hands reach, with an emergency stop button. with all the engine gauges, plus carriage/head control switches and emerg stop, 1 box may be a bit big and cumbersome, so the 2 box stack method may be a better solution. but then there are all the wires and possibly the fuel line constantly in motion during operations. i think eventually, wire bending will take its toll. ill look in the docs for wiring and see if there is something that says how much loop there needs to be for movable control surfaces. a doc that may have some of the wire flexing info for ya'll is the FAA AC 43.13-1B of the army TM 1-1500-204-23-4, which both can be found using a google search. ill do some digging and see what i find out and pass it on, unless 1 of ya'll find it first.  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 10, 2019, 07:03:48 AM
Done. International postage is a bit of a killer but I bet it'll still work in your favour at that price!

I'll let you know how I go with the ones I got, I can do a before and after vid maybe. I got it tensioned and leveled today and put it through a small native ring screwed to a plank. Heavy/hard as hell and it ate it piece of cake so that's encouraging. Definitely need to get onto the log clamps.

Still a lot of vibration, I'm hanging pretty high hopes on these mounts. But nothing to scoff at for the first cut I guess.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190910_164829.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568113238)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 13, 2019, 09:50:33 AM
The mounts showed up today, there were two styles but I don't have bolts for the taller type. I suspect they'd work better. Pretty disappointed anyway a bit of the harshness is gone from the frame rattle but no noticeable difference to blade vibration. They are hard as rocks.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190913_122853.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568381794)
 

I got the backstops welded up. Bailed on the all joined one lever idea when I started piecing together a plan and steel requirements.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190914_003215.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568381795)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190913_224105.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568381795)
 

Vertical up welding is a bit shoddy but I don't think it's going anywhere.
Added cap bolts to the tops to stop them landing on the road if the clamps work loose too.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190914_003401.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568381797)


I'll get started on the sliding clamps tomorrow. I've got some tube I'm thinking I'll run a cutter along on the lathe in a high gear to give it some 'teeth' and then have a cam lock spike sliding on it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 13, 2019, 10:32:08 AM
Thats looking great. I like the points on the top of the tube. I may have to steal that idea when I redo my backstops.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 13, 2019, 10:39:18 AM
Points on the backstops are good. Bearings even better. Look at the Woodmizer stops. Not a priority though. Mine still have the angle and waiting for the round tuit to change to bearings.  Something to keep in mind though. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 13, 2019, 11:45:05 AM
I was talking about the small points on the sleeve for holding the cant.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 13, 2019, 11:50:10 AM
I see now. That is a goood idea. Another round tuit. I need a lot tuits  :D 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 14, 2019, 05:49:38 PM
Yesterday ended up going a different way. I've been kicking this battery tray around on the floor for the last few days so figured it was time to go on and put the electronics together.

The control box is just an electronic enclosure with holes drilled for the buttons. Emergency stop button taps into the engines oil level sensor and just drags it to ground. I found a little ATV winch contactor relay for $25, will see how it goes. Heavy leads in its own loom and the signal wiring in a tidy braid tube. I'm not sure whether running the battery leads in a loom with fuel line is sensible, so there may be two looms when I get around to fitting fuel tank.

One thing I have noticed, now that it's easily thrown back and forth is the helical gears in the lift drive may cause an issue. There is quite a bit of slack in the motor armature and of course when you change directions the axial force is in the opposite direction and hammers it with quite a crack. I have another two gears with spur teeth out of the same diff, I may count the teeth and see if that will work. Deeper teeth also which has to be good.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190914_140513.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568497538)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_092957.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568497541)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_092948.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568497539)
 

Still a bit of a birds nest but I have more wiring to add yet so won't cut and finish just yet.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 14, 2019, 06:11:39 PM
Ill be using a winch control relay for my raise/lower motor too. Gotta figure out how many ft lbs its gonna take for the raising action before i can buy a motor and rgb. I might end up using a 24v motor and change from a 12 to 24 vdc alternator to ensure i have plenty of tq going to the rgb. The biggest 12 vdc motor i can find is 1hp, which may be a few ft lbs low are right at the limit, meaning it’ll be running 98-100% everytime i make a lift. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 14, 2019, 08:19:11 PM
An alternator with no battery? Or two seperate batteries and circuits on your saw? I'd be surprised if 1hp reduced wasn't enough. Reduce it enough to make it work I'd say.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 14, 2019, 09:46:05 PM
24 volt will draw more current than 12v. not sure how, but thats what my electronics wizard told me. I trust him he has not been wrong yet.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 14, 2019, 10:07:06 PM
An alternator with no battery? Or two seperate batteries and circuits on your saw? I'd be surprised if 1hp reduced wasn't enough. Reduce it enough to make it work I'd say.
Feed in to 2 batts, then a 24 to 12 step down. 
I can get a rgb that would work, but the final output would be to slow. 
@Crusarius (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) i could see it drawing more, but if it runs at 75-80% rating compared to 95+% on the 12 vdc, im thinking it should prolong the motor life. It depends on cost difference and if 2 12v motors would cost the same or more than 1 24v but burn out 2x faster. 
I was thinking of a 20:1 rgb, which would put my output tq at around 60 ftlbs. I wont know tq requirement for another month, depending how much i get on my next tour hm. But iv got surgery on oct 28, so ill be out for a wk or so before i attempt to work while on crutches or hobble on 1 foot. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 14, 2019, 10:07:58 PM
V=IR, R is constant, your motors winding say .5ohm.

So I = V/R, 12V/.5 is 24amp
or 24V/.5 is 48amp.

R isn't quite constant as a motor starts/runs but that's the gist of why it draws more.

These are the two other gears I have. Haven't had time to count all 4s teeth and do the math but I've got a good feeling about it just looking at it. Might be slower which is fine I think.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_132818.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568513010)
 
Haven't done anything whatsoever today. Got a call from a friend with a fallen walnut and native log so off we go. Funny how the news of it gets around I must have a weeks work+ for it already!

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_134510.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568513014)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 14, 2019, 11:21:36 PM
V=IR
 
I can't argue with that formula and your math, but...

Looking at a normal ac motor that has switchable voltage, I see amps for each voltage.  When you go from 120v to 240v, the amps are cut in half - in apparent defiance of Ohm's law.  I never thought about it before - now my brain hurts :-\
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 15, 2019, 06:31:58 AM
When you rewire for voltage on an AC motor you are usually also switching between star wiring and delta wiring, I think. Meaning length of windings current has to flow through is different so R/ohms changes. Def not the same rules as DC motors.

Jeez my buddy was shredding the place. Putting logs on mine or his trailer as quick as I could point to them. Thought I was showing up to help out but there's just no point with a slick digger operator on the scene haha I mostly just kept out of the way. Everyone needs a digger  :)

Got some good logs to get some setup/practice with and some really nice logs that will produce some decent timber I'd say! Made two trips with full trailers, this one was the walnut.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_175606.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568543414)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190915_182458.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568543413)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 15, 2019, 07:57:39 AM
Ohm's law is ohm's law and a constant R will draw higher current at higher voltage as stated.  When you change a motor from 120V to 240V it is using different windings, which doubles R, so current is cut in half.  

If you run the very same 12V motor on 24V, it is using the same winding so R stays the same and current doubles.  The benefit would occur if you used a 24V motor which would have a higher R to produce the same power.

(In AC motors, we're actually dealing with impedance instead of simple resistance, but that's another story.)

Sorry for the eye-glazing details.  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 15, 2019, 10:29:11 AM
When you change a motor from 120V to 240V it is using different windings, which doubles R, so current is cut in half.
I think that the R value goes up by 4.  If it only doubled, the same as the voltage, then the current would remain the same.  But I get what you mean.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 15, 2019, 01:30:10 PM
So my friend is not cooky dukes :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 15, 2019, 09:15:00 PM
so i did a bit of research and the leeson 24v dc 2hp motor, according to leeson direct, draws 10 amps less than a 1hp 12v dc (12v 80 amps; 24v 70 amps). i guess its reasonable though to expect double the tq, from 35in lbs on the 12 1hp, to 70 on the 2hp 24 and its double the cost fo the 12v. i was hoping for a bit more tq, but double is better than half. with a 2:1 rgb, that'll give me about 116 ft lbs of tq. only time will tell how much it'll take to raise the saw head. im hoping i can be around 80ft lbs. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 16, 2019, 09:29:43 AM
I finally got around to some log clamps today. A bit of a look around here turned up an idea of robnrob2's that I liked. Only I've had a bit of a ballsup, as I close my clamps because of the arc they swing they want to pull the log into the deck slightly too. I knew it would and thought it might be a good thing/more secure but I think it's going to want to turn a square cant as it closes.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190916_180219~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568638463)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190916_180411.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568638465)
 

I turned a puck to fit inside the tube I used to slide the clamps on, and plug welded it. Then drilled and tapped for a bolt on each side of the frame that holds the tube so it's easily moved. If I decide I've put them in a silly place it's as easy as drilling two new holes.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190916_230713.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568638465)
 

So other than the pulling downwards problem they work really good, the heel of the handle hits the post just past the lobes centre so it really positively engages into place with that satisfying clonk. I guess I either have to cut a new lever/spike so that its swing is centred on 12 o'clock above it. Or a pivoting spike on the end of it... The floor is open for ideas  ??? ??? ???


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190916_235214.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568638468)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190917_001928.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568638472)


I counted up the gear teeth too, its a .16 ratio now, the new set will be .20, it's already on the cusp of being underpowered so back to the drawing board with that one  :-\
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 16, 2019, 03:07:46 PM
I sure wish i had a lathe and mill. You do pretty good work. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 16, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
Thanks Charles! They seemed like questionable purchases at the time but are certainly getting their use. No one's saying what the heck will you do with a milling machine any more. But, they are saying what the heck will you do with a sawmill.

I had the mother of all catches when turning the last puck, I was being a stingey bugger trying to use the last of a small round. Parting it off while holding it by the chucks fingernails  ::) hss blade grabbed and exploded fragments all over the work station, nearly pulled the work from the jaws. Ended up costing a lot more than 2" of mild round  smiley_roller

I think I'm going to cut new levers that curve backwards so that the spike swings from 11:30 to 0:30 on a clock, rather than 10-11 o'clock like it is. In my mind that should fix it... I think?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 16, 2019, 06:30:30 PM
I think I'm going to cut new levers that curve backwards so that the spike swings from 11:30 to 0:30 on a clock, rather than 10-11 o'clock like it is. In my mind that should fix it... I think?

yeah, that's how mine work.  They don't lift or pull that I've noticed:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_b.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201621)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201640)

And my attachment to the cam is a little different than what you did.  I'm at an angle closer to the low side but not at the lowest.  I have nearly 180° swing and have about ¾-1" of throw on the tip.  Usually way more than I need (I have to back off a little with the whole clamp).
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 16, 2019, 06:52:01 PM
During my build, the “what would i do with it?” has yet to come up. My wife has asked, “why dont i get 1?” bc it would have saved time and money already and in the future. My drive axle cost, after a 25% discount, $1200, 6 months after dropping the build/plans off, i get it back. I think the 25% discount was bc he took “no rush, 6-8 wks” and thought i said 6-8 months. Iv still got a job with him, dropped off 2 months ago, but that truly is a no rush job. Iv got another 2 months before i’ll need it. 

Im not understanding your clamping though. I understand the concept, leverage against the bar with the spike on it, but cant wrap my understanding of how it goes together. Ill gander at it on my computer when i get back to the hotel, since there are no fires for us to put out here in cali. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 16, 2019, 07:03:27 PM
I'll fix the tips on them and do you a quick vid Charles I think you'll like the mechanism, if I can get the spike to work like John's.

Do yours clunk into place John? Or is it just a wedge clamp? I think my problem started at having the pivot hole and cam hole so close together which was limited by the tube I used. I started with bigger tube but it was going to dwarf the base and look funny. All good though I'll whip some swept levers up and that should do it. Thanks for pics!

I did a fire contract up in Manitoba one year, several months of sitting on my butt for about 20hrs, half of which was flood relief. I feel yr pain!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 16, 2019, 07:12:34 PM
Last yr was a $96,000 season. this yr, i barely broke over $62k as of friday’s pay check. After surgery in oct, im hopping hire with a company in socal. Better pay and break schedule, plus direct supervisors are some awesome guys i worked with for 4 yrs with my current employer. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 16, 2019, 07:47:46 PM
Do yours clunk into place John?
 
More of a "tink".  If I start too close to the log or cant, I'll put a 1/4" to 3/8" divot in the wood.  OK on a log but not so on a cant.  The lever starts out on top and is easy to pull.  about halfway down it has some resistance.  If it wants to stop here, I'm too close.  Then I continue down (little movement caused but the cam) and it hits the bar at the bottom.  I am just barely over-center on the cam.

The drawback on this design is at the lowest setting on my mill, I'm just under 7" off the bunks.  It can only drop to the bottom bolt.  This is not all the way down.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171219_d.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513744594)

I have another clamp that works sideways - I'll try to get a pic tomorrow when I go up to work.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 16, 2019, 09:24:11 PM
I see, yeah that is a problem. So they get taken right out of their bracket when you're doing the last cuts on a cant?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190917_130303.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568683393)
 

I changed my mind again, an easy quick fix. I don't know why I had the points hanging out in China like that, it just wasn't necessary. The point is always going to draw a circle around the bolt regardless of the levers shape and to take the point any further back would mean the lever itself contacted the work before the spike. So I just cut them as short as possible and shaped the spike a little less aggressively, I was getting the same divot as you mentioned John. I may even lop the top off all together and weld on something with a bit more surface area.

Here ya go Charles. Seems to work good I'll leave it like that for now.

Log clamp - YouTube (https://youtu.be/g9VsQtS_JFk)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 16, 2019, 10:58:26 PM
So they get taken right out of their bracket when you're doing the last cuts on a cant?

In reality, I only use the big clamps on the logs.  Once I have a flat surface on the bunks, they are not needed - the weight of the wood keeps things from moving/tipping.  Most of my cutting lately has been to make 2x10.  On a 10" wide cant, it stays put with just the log stops up an inch or so.  If the cant is really tall, I'll have the stops up a bit more - just have to remember to lower them so I don't hit them.  I made a mini version that is rotated 90° that I use if I need some support for edging some 2x6 or 2x4 stock.  I will post a pic tomorrow.

While it is impressive the amount of force a cam can impart, you don't need to clamp so hard.  With a log, just trying to keep it from rolling.  For edging, just keeping it vertical.  The saw is not going to lift the wood and it is pulling it into the backstops/log stops.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 17, 2019, 02:16:01 AM
I spent the afternoon drawing the guards, I have a friend with a table who might be able to cut them for me this evening. Have I done anything stupid or otherwise...?

It'll be 1mm sheet, I figured I will just make it a one piece hood that you lower over the wheels and bolt into place with 4 bolts.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568700908)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568700909)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 17, 2019, 07:10:11 AM
So that means to change the blade the entire guard needs to be removed? If that is the case I bet you that gets old fast.

I learned on my early design do not make anything that flips up unless you like getting concussions. It will inevitably fall on your head or you will walk into it. My final setup has a hinge on the drive side that allows the cover to open like a door. The idle side removes completely. I really like the drive side guard but not the idle side.

Not the best picture and not really showing the opening but if you look closely you can see the hasp holding the drive side cover closer and a spring clip holding idle side on.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/sawmillcomplete3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568644410)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 17, 2019, 09:56:21 AM
So that means to change the blade the entire guard needs to be removed? If that is the case I bet you that gets old fast.
Yaaap.. Good call that was a dumb idea haha.

We decided that fold was going to be too difficult anyway, and basically got nothing done. Just tossed ideas around. I'm thinking 3 parts now, a piece across the top and two ends that open somehow. I can use 1mm aluminium sheet for quite cheap so I think I'll go that route.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 17, 2019, 10:00:44 AM
Do your best not to make it open up. You will be much happier. And so will your noggin :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 17, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
Even if they swing open horizontal like a door? What about whole guard sliding off the end. What would you do if you had a pile of alloy sheet, a CNC table and a bender
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 17, 2019, 04:11:01 PM
you just described mine. drive side is door hinged and idle side slides off the end. Prefer to not have to remove the guard but its how it turned out.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 17, 2019, 04:14:11 PM
Swing open, meet in the middle is pretty common on commercially made band mills. Lift-off hinges are nice. Basically a box with a lid on the front. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 17, 2019, 07:40:23 PM
@JoshNZ (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) i see and understand the workings of it now. Several have shown pics, but your vid made it click.
Thanks
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 17, 2019, 07:44:58 PM
If you had a bit of round bar for the lobe you wouldn't need a lathe or mill either, cut the slots in the tube with a grinder and the rest is all welding
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 17, 2019, 08:52:25 PM
Not really applicable to your build, but here is my sideways clamp for when I get down to something less than 7" that needs a clamp:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Side_Clamp.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568767500)
 The cam is setup reversed.  This is the locked position, with the handle pointing to the left is released.

I also got a shot of my improved scale:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Improved_Scale.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568767498)
 
I did two things.  I punched a little dot half way between each scale mark (dark blue).  Then I also punched which scale under every ½ mark and full mark (the faint, uncolored numbers).  That way I can make sure I'm on the right scale.  At the bottom you can see a little carriage bolt head.  That is on a toggle clamp that holds the scale from sliding around.  When I want to cut a 6x something, I center the blade on the pith, release the toggle and slide the scale up until a dot on the 6-scale is under the height marker (a red wire not shown).  I lock the toggle and then raise the head to the full 6-scale full (numbered) mark and make my cut.  Drop down to the next lower 6-scale full mark and cut again.  Now I don't have to mess with the tape measure!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 18, 2019, 05:53:24 PM
Didn't even have a spare minute to find a straight edge when you were knocking that up huh  :D

Looks like a cool idea, I will do something similar. Do you cut the pith out and dispose or do your two middle boards have half a pith in them each?

One question I meant to ask a while ago, do I need to anchor my carriage to the bed by means of a wheel under a rail on each side or is it safe enough with the weight of everything riding on the angle iron?
I want to put feet on it today and if no rail is needed the feet tubes will go straight on the outside of the frame.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 18, 2019, 08:33:22 PM
You can't use just a normal ruler.  You want to take into account the thickness of the blade/kerf.  So, on my 1" scale, the marks are 1-1/8" so I'm left with a board that is just over 1" thick.  That allows for shrinkage and planing/sanding.  For the bigger stuff (5-6" and larger), I believe I have it set to 1/4" over since there will be more loss to drying.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER, split the pith.  The juvenal wood (the pith) will shrink in length and WILL cause your wood to crook like a banana.  I can show you some really good examples.  So, you box it.  IF the tree is really straight, you can box it in a 2x board.  If there is a bit of sweep, it probably will creep out one side or the other and its best to box it in something bigger like a 4x or bigger posts/beams.  Again, NEVER split the pith - even on a big beam.

My wheels are pretty shallow, cut on my lathe - probably only 1/4" to 3/8" deep groove.  I do not have anything under the rail to hold it on.  Just gravity.  I'm not portable so not an issue, IMO.  My head probably weighs in at 200-250 pounds.  I have knocked it off with an errant smack while loading a big log ::) , but that is usually just one wheel.

Oh yeah, and NEVER spit the pith... ;)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 18, 2019, 11:29:16 PM
Got it. Pith wants a good cushion  smiley_thumbsup

I just meant your lines haha. :D I've fixed a couple for ya!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/Improved_Scale.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568863276)
 

I redrew the guards, v2.0... A box on each end with a lid that swings horizontally on lift-hinges at each end. The channel between them will just stay bolted to the frame. There is very little support for the inside corners of the guards so I figured to support them and close them, they can land on two standoffs supported from the other side of the guard where it mounts to the frame. Much like a workshop bandsaw cover.

My friend has a bunch of polished aluminium 1.2mm sheets he's trying to get rid of, I took a sheet home and messed around with the tig welder, was looking too good not to take him up on the offer so I'm hoping to make a bit of a feature out of it.  :-\

That seem functional..?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/Snap.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568863399)


I'll design a brake/clamping system for transport I'm not worried about the portability issue. No chance the carriage will want to drag itself off the trailer if the blade pinches or something?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 19, 2019, 01:26:42 AM
No chance the carriage will want to drag itself off the trailer if the blade pinches or something?


If my blade attempts to stop, it will stall my 18hp engine.  My entire head will oscillate from side to side (sort of a harmonic dance) when cutting some hard spot (knots).  Like an inch or two.  If I just bump it at the right time I can dampen it out pretty quick.  The most I've had go wrong was a cant I thought was heavy enough and not completely against the log stops.  It slid over to the stops pretty quick when the blade entered but nothing bad happened.  Even when it hit the stops, the head didn't try to go the other way.

Thanks for fixing the lines ;) I did use a straight edge but I had to push so hard on the razor knife to make the line that it wanted to follow its own path.  I should really redo the lines with a V gouge and a clamped fence.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 19, 2019, 07:10:21 AM
do I need to anchor my carriage to the bed by means of a wheel under a rail on each side or is it safe enough with the weight of everything riding on the angle iron?


I think most mills just use gravity. I added a bent piece of 1/4" plate just for piece of mind. After having the blade dive on me after zinging the backstop I wondered what would happen if the blade rose suddenly. Would I then be scrambling to find something to lift the carriage back onto the bed?

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20180408_180623.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1523296170)

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 19, 2019, 07:19:56 AM
The guard idea looks nice. One thing I found with my setup was I liked having the guard open so the wheel was exposed. Made putting a blade on quite a bit easier not having to squeeze your hands into the guard to get blade where you want it. so my hinges are about 4" in from the ends and the round part is part of the front guard. I also found I like very little space behind the blade. When I had to much space back there it was to easy for the blade to jump behind the wheel and it is a very bad word trying to get it out from behind them! Not to mention accompanied by many other bad words!

Unfortunately I was looking through my gallery and could not find any pictures of what I tried to describe. Currently the internet at home is dead so I cannot get you anything till next week.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 20, 2019, 04:31:34 AM
I've drawn my guards to be 100mm thick, I guess that's too much if you want less than more clearance behind the guards? 100mm isn't that much mind you. I could always do a big bevel cut across the front of the guard door if I do want it open, with a circular saw. Beauty of working with aluminium!

I took the carriage off the bed yesterday and thought I'd quickly flip that axle over to see what I get for blade clearance. Thought it'd be a 10 minute job  >:( sheared the nut off the leaf stack bolt while reversing it and bla bla... 2 hours later.
Anyway.
Hopefully it has enough clearance I think if my last cut is higher than 15mm then I'll clear it. That's with a brand new full tread R13 wheel on it which I'm still yet to source a pair of. I could go low profile and that'd clear the bed completely but I think I'd have to pay for that. Thinking I'll do mudguards hinged at the back and wing nuts at the front so before milling you'd just remove the nuts and swing the mudguards off the wheel. Maybe have a red sticker on them haha...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190919_181915.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568967737)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190919_201126.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568967737)


Of course I can't get the mill under the first bay door now haha... But that's not a big problem.

I noticed the carriage twitching a bit in that test cut hence why I asked about anchoring it to the bed, but I'll put my faith in gravity I think.

I've been scratching my head about legs for a while, I'm thinking something similar to the log back stops but on the outside, and with holes that locate for a pin every 30mm or so, then a threaded foot to take up the difference between the pins. So you'd set the pin closest to the ground then wind the foot out the rest of the way. Any kind of conventional jockey post requires bevel gears or worm drives or whatever. I have to do 8 of them at least  :-\

Hoping to add 40mm pregalv tube on the cross members for bunks and get guards cut and folded next week. Then we should be into it!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 20, 2019, 04:10:18 PM
I just used 8 12" trailer jacks I cut and modified to fit my application. Top wind. Worked better than I expected them to. but unfortunately I welded them to the bed just a tiny bit to high. I have 1 jack that my guard hits on the last cut. Just barely.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 20, 2019, 05:25:26 PM
I just can't see how a top wind would work the handle would have to clear the bed therefore be in the way of the bed. Hence the thread at the bottom. Same idea but bottom wind I suppose
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 20, 2019, 05:30:01 PM
Remove the handle and weld on a nut. Adjust with a drill or impact. Eight jacks is a lot of cranking. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 20, 2019, 05:30:07 PM
They work. I just wish I mounted them 1/2" lower.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/sawmillcomplete4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568644410)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 20, 2019, 05:32:07 PM
THe nut would then be in the way :) I thought about doing that but decided I like the cranks. I think I just need to modify my guard to clear it better. Or I cut that one off and move it down 1/2"
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 20, 2019, 05:43:55 PM
I’d rather pull a trigger than crank.  :D

Carry one of these for emergencies:


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/41827C31-D038-4A95-B17E-6328B94B1DF9.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1569015800)
 

Interference can be solved. 

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 20, 2019, 06:01:56 PM
Interference can be solved. 

The guard hits not the blade :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on September 20, 2019, 06:21:51 PM
I apologize. I thought we were talking about Josh’s jacks. My mistake. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 20, 2019, 09:01:13 PM
Still, what's 8 jack's cost you  :-\. I'd be a long time waiting for 8 second hand jack's cut from the same jib to come up. Looks like they're about $100 each.

Remember with pins there won't be much cranking, I'll drop the whole leg on the ground then just wind out the play between the pin.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 20, 2019, 09:50:55 PM
Surplus center 18.99

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Truck-Trailer/Trailer-Components-Hardware/Trailer-Jacks/2000-Pound-15-Travel-Top-Wind-Round-Tube-Trailer-Jack-28-1939.axd (https://www.surpluscenter.com/Truck-Trailer/Trailer-Components-Hardware/Trailer-Jacks/2000-Pound-15-Travel-Top-Wind-Round-Tube-Trailer-Jack-28-1939.axd)

just watch out for shipping. It kinda hurts. But still cheaper than jacks elsewhere.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 22, 2019, 03:04:31 AM
They won't show me shipping until I place the order but I bet it'd be half the price of them all again, + some import tax. I'll just get started building  :'(
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 22, 2019, 09:33:32 AM
yea. for 6 of them shipping was $65 if I remember right. but it still ended up being quite a bit cheaper than anything else I could find. I would also check ebay. They may have good deals there.

You do not need 10k jacks when you have 8 of them and an axle with springs to spread the load. I do not typically rely on the axle though cause I prefer it to not touch the ground, or barely touch the ground.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 25, 2019, 05:14:57 PM
International shipping for something that heavy would be at least 4x that I'd say  :-\. I've still not done any legs haha. Really procrastinating on that one  :D

Managed to weld up a little bracket for a tote tank this week. It's the only place it could go I didn't want it on the exhaust side and this was really all that would work on this side.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190924_172203.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444605)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190924_172148.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444605)
 

I might see if I can find some tread plate to rivet to the frame. I thought maybe plywood but don't want it soaking up fuel.

Also got some guards cut this week. The sheets available were 1200x600 and I overlooked the unfolded dimensions so not all of the tags fit on the sheet, which meant a bit of extra welding. I could really use an aluminium welding lesson I had a hell of a time with it. Sometimes fine and sometimes it would crap the bed. Best I could do was struggle along each seam filling holes and leaving bulges, grind it back, and put a nicer bead on top. The filler just didn't want to flow into the sheet until there was already filler in it it seemed. Below is one of the better ones anyway.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190925_222044.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444610)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190925_172412.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444607)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190925_222000.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444608)
 

I haven't found hinges yet but this is with the lid just hanging off the guard.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190925_175057.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444606)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190925_222236.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569444609)
 

I don't know about 'feature' any more haha. It's been dragged across the bench that many times and a bit dented it's not quite there but it looks alright I guess. Still have to add the channel to the centre and the standoffs. I'm gonna pull that jack out and wind the pressure relief screw in to the stop. If it stays put I'll prop the bed then cut a log I think  ;D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 25, 2019, 06:01:32 PM
for hinges I just used 2 pieces of tube and dropped a bolt through them. Mine were welded on. That may be a little more challenging with your setup.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 25, 2019, 06:14:25 PM
Yeaaahhh I thought about welding on a couple of studs to the guard. I've got some ali rounds there I can turn some tube out of. How often do you need to lift them off if they swing right open? Piano hinges would be more secure.

I'm Def not going to have any of the head donking problems you mentioned, each guard would only be a couple lb or so
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 25, 2019, 06:21:15 PM
I don't have to lift them off very often but the way mine is setup when it is closed it cannot lift up. The idle side needs the same setup as the drive side.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 25, 2019, 06:46:47 PM
Dealing with Al, you might look into piano hinge and using either solids or cherry max rivets. They come in either button head or counter sink, and solids seem to hold better, but cherries are good for blind areas or limited access. 
Dealing with aluminum on a near daily basis, id look into some kind of anti chafe tape/sealant. Plus with dissimilar metals (aluminum and steel) comes faster corrosion. Moisture and electrical current speed that process up. So a good coat of primer/sealant between the different metals is very important. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 25, 2019, 10:34:46 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Any recommendations for an easily obtainable product?

I'm the sort that would rebuild a car because I couldn't find a barely audible rattle in the dash haha I'm certainly not going to listen to rattling guards.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 26, 2019, 12:36:55 AM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Any recommendations for an easily obtainable product?

I'm the sort that would rebuild a car because I couldn't find a barely audible rattle in the dash haha I'm certainly not going to listen to rattling guards.
this is the primer for dissimilar metals.
ZINC PHOSPHATE PRIMERS | Aircraft Spruce (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/primers/zinc.php)
some form of anti-chafing material
3M POLYURETHANE PROTECTIVE TAPE 8672 | Aircraft Spruce (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/tape_3m/protectiveLeading.php) or 3M 86 non promoter tape
sealant: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ps890.php?clickkey=4275 there is also a 1422 b 1/2 by the same manufacturer and name (pro-seal). 
and for water intrusion on electrical items, or anti-chafe material for say lines rubbing the metal, or line on line, line on electrical type application. 
Robot Check (https://www.amazon.com/Proxicast-Pro-Grade-Weatherproof-Self-Fusing-Electrical/dp/B00K5GW67O/ref=sr_1_13?gclid=Cj0KCQjwoKzsBRC5ARIsAITcwXGJWvLoDf8NVrHp619CRAjo_6fZ_coWGSFmHBCsbR42aYqRSpU5HpgaAoHqEALw_wcB&hvadid=241942088122&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1014254&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8397398508356822565&hvtargid=kwd-5898523608&hydadcr=24659_10400694&keywords=3m+silicone+tape&qid=1569471992&sr=8-13)
i know the prices are steep for some of the stuff, but the stuff WORKS. there may be a place in your neck of the woods that may offer it, and possibly at a cheaper rate. possibly an airport that, due to shelf life requirements, may just give it to you. that is where i get mine. once it comes up on expiration, if someone else doesn't want it, i take it hm.
i will be using a lot of stuff that would have thrown away from work (nuts, washers, bolts, adel clamps, wire loom, cotter pins) plus the shelf life material. but i also use it at my own avn business 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 27, 2019, 04:30:08 AM
I ended up finding a foam rubber tape, I'm pretty impressed with it actually it cost bugger all and it sticks like fury, has a fiberglass cloth backing to it then almost a neoprene foam feel outside it. Folded over each interfering edge. It has a really good feel to it hopefully it lasts.

I was a bit worried about how flimsy and light these guards are. If you caught your shirt on it while it was open or tripped and tried to save yourself you'd prob be tearing the guard off the mill but actually, when it's all closed up and screwed down its pretty solid! I don't think it will wobble or vibrate, certainly won't make noise (this one at least)

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190927_173131.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569572352)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190927_175314.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569572349)
 

The standoffs work well, I've ordered some star knobs (I think that's what they're called) roamed round town for a while looking for them today the internet is riddled with them but not a store with them in stock.

I've had another small ballsup on the drive side, there's no room for standoffs. I'm going to have to modify the frame or something behind it to add one outside of the rear guard, I don't know.. floor is open on that one?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190927_180121.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569572338)
 

I ended up welding some equal angle extrusion ali to each side of the guard. The hinge pivot had to be further in than on the edge of the guard so that the lips on the lid, that fold over the guard, arced away from the lid rather than straight into it. Tig job went a lot better this time and it's added quite a bit of strength. The hinges are fixed pins but I made sure to get hinges with loose pins. I'll knock the button off one end and they'll be removable.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190927_175325.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569572344)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190927_180601.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569572336)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on September 27, 2019, 09:54:23 PM
So, during locating the procedure for replacing a grounding jumper, i came across the bend radius for elec wires during movement operations. here is what i came across from our elec manual.

"Ensure the minimum radius of bend for
wire or cable is 10 times the outside diameter of the wire
or cable, except that at the terminal strips where the
wire is suitably supported, the radius may be 3 times the
diameter of the wire or cable. Where it is impractical to
install wiring or cable within the radius requirements, the
bend shall be enclosed in insulating tubing."

Josh, your guards sure do look good. i may go with al too, to cut down on weight, esp for the amount of overhang i'll have covering my band wheels. iv got some 3/16, but not sure how easy it will be to bend it seems to be hardened, so i may have to anneal it before bending.  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: TreeStandHunter on September 27, 2019, 09:57:40 PM
Those guards look great. That’s going to be a very nice mill when finished
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: donbj on September 27, 2019, 10:15:56 PM
You guys do impressive work!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 29, 2019, 07:39:40 AM
Thanks fellers!

I haven't routed my cables yet but I'm sure their radius is way more than 10x their diameter, just where they sit.

It was going to be too difficult to get frame down to the bottom stand-off so I've just left it between sheets. Seems to be ok. I did run a little angle piece down from the frame to support the top one.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190928_154800.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755082)
 

And that's it for the guards! I had a bunch of 40mm pregalv tube for bunks and cut and fitted these yesterday. I used a wooden template to punch them and then drilled at tap size, then transferred to the bed, then redrilled at bolt and socket size. Bit of stuffing around but it went together like clockwork.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190928_164249.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755083)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190928_210009.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755084)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190928_210040.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755084)
 

I pulled the little jack apart completely, as soon as I got it open a little gauss filter fell out which I hope has been sitting in the check valve ball or something I don't know. I wound in the relief screw all the way, cleaned it out, and topped up with oil. Don't know what fixed it but it's holding rock solid now ;D I think the only way I'm going to tap into it is from the bottom and it will have to be with one tiny fitting! This is what the gizzards look like in case anyone is interested.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190928_214340.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755087)
 

I was going to drag it outside for a test cut and then decided I better do a throttle so I'm not climbing all around hot exhaust each time, bodged together this little bracket and fixed an old dirt bike clutch handle to it.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190929_161742.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755085)
 

Then dragged it outside and started milling!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190929_174131.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755086)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190929_181812.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755087)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190929_181927.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755089)


Mill test - YouTube (https://youtu.be/YfI3UWcLOAA)

This was a birch log, reasonably straight so I thought it'd be a good first choice. All went pretty good I think, I have a few kinks I need to work out but nothing too dramatic. I pushed the first cut to see what would give and the small pulley on the jackshaft is too small, it smoked the belt really quickly. I'll have to triple their circumferences I think, or double sheave..? So I'm nursing it in the vid.
My clamps are galling already too. Is mild steel always going to do this or would I get away with polishing them smooth and leaving them greased?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190929_190649~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569755088)
 

The other thing I've done, which is really stupid... The back stops are further outboard than the inside of the band wheel. It's not going to matter until I'm cutting 10" high cants but, all in the name of a bit of extra width  :-\. They're gonna be a real pain to move too. I'm wondering if just using dunnage for big cants will be the idea, since that's not something you'd commonly do?

I don't know if the engine mounts have softened or the guards have changed the resonant frequency but the whole unit is singing pretty sweetly now.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Vautour on September 29, 2019, 08:08:42 AM
...Nice craftsmanship Josh...looking good 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hilltop366 on September 29, 2019, 08:36:06 AM
It works!! Must feel nice to give it a try.

Can you add a second pocket for the backstops instead of trying to move those.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 29, 2019, 09:41:12 AM
I ended up doing the same thing on the backstops. I have only had a couple times I have needed to shim to clear the cant. I think you will be ok just leaving it.

If you try to polish and grease will they still hold when you lock them? Harder piece of material would be ideal.

At least you were smarter than I was and drug it outside to try you first cuts. I did mine in the garage. what a mess :)

I also added a thick rubber flap just hanging off the guard to redirect the sawdust down. Now instead of shooting 60' out the side of the mill I get a nice clean pile down the side of the mill.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 29, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
redirect the sawdust down
+1  Also helps if it is windy to not have it blow quite so much back in your face!

NICE!  Feels great to get that first cut, huh?

For your cams, any possibility of heat treating them?  Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about the galling.  I happened to have some stainless steel rounds that I used.  They look fine but the arm that grabs the logs has a little galling.  It just holds better ;)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 29, 2019, 04:30:19 PM
Can you add a second pocket for the backstops instead of trying to move those.

That... Is a great idea =), one I'll def do - thanks! That solves the problem while leaving max capacity.

They will still lock greased yes. Their locking mechanism is over centering, not jamming, so possibly even better/smoother. I had dad on the clamps and helping roll the log, they worked brilliantly. Simple and rock solid. When I dropped the backstops down too they worked exactly as I imagined, dropped into their little recess and then the teeth on the pockets held the cant perfectly. I had to reverse the bolts in the clamps so the heads stuck out on the blade side. Lots of funny little tweaks like that needed, things you don't think of until you see it working.

I've tried heat treating mild steel to not much success, there is bugger all carbon in it so I don't think it can be hardened much beyond what it is. But I'm all ears if someone has a magic procedure!

I've got a ton of ali sheet left I could probably weld up a nozzle for the sawdust. I figured you'd want it clear to extract as best it could but it doesn't seem like it will block easily. I guess the sawdust stream is something you want to watch while you're cutting, a bit like chip loading on the lathe it must be a pretty good tell of where you're at with feed?

Feels great to have the first cut done for sure! Partly relief that this whole project isn't a blunder, I imagine it isn't too difficult to have built a saw that is fundamentally flawed and will never work well so I'm glad I've squished that bug in the back of my mind.
And it's a ton of fun! What have I done...

I do want to swap those helical gears on the lift screws for spur gears. And I think I'm going to replace the motor with a 12V. It could easily be twice as fast and still have good control. It'd be painful waiting for the head to climb half a log if I was slabbing and leaving them on there for weight.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on September 29, 2019, 07:33:58 PM
The whole pulley re-kit cost me nearly $400  smiley_crying smiley_crying smiley_crying I want it to be bullet proof though I think it has to be done.

I got a big double sheave cast pulley for the jackshaft and then two single 4.5"s (up from 2.5") I think with the room I've got left on the shaft the drive side belts will have to straddle the driven sides. Will look a bit funky but is what it is.

Have been looking at DC motors too I want to go back to 12V at nominal speed. I think I might do away with the gears altogether and run a little toothed timing belt between the screw and motor, there's a store online that sells them in all sorts of sizes. Would quieten/smooth it down a lot, as long as it wouldn't slip?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on September 30, 2019, 07:16:15 AM
My guards where just like yours. I had the bottom open for the same reason. All I did was put a 6" rubber flap hanging off the corner of the guard. Works perfectly. No need to over engineer this.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 01, 2019, 07:08:44 PM
I took a bit off the lip of my band pulleys yesterday. Mounted them on a wood turned mandrel/plate on the wood lathe and hit them with a flap disc, a bit crude but it worked pretty well for a one of job. Really didn't want to remove the gap from the metal lathe for just this.

I don't think I have a photo of it before but I've given myself probably 3mm clearance for the band now. That lathe is an old union graduate, I machined a new drive shaft to spin work on the outside backwards, and fitted a 3phase and VFD and second control station on the back, so I stand on the other side for doing big platters or.. cast iron wheels =/. It's the coolest tool in my workshop at the moment!

It would basically work with anything that spun your wheel at around 30-50RPM. Even on the mill itself with a hand crank and helper. For anyone else with the same issue


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191001_194157.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569971223)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191001_222954.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1569971221)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 01, 2019, 07:31:13 PM
That is great Josh. I had some smaller parts I needed to taper the ends so I put it in the drill press and did the same thing with a grinder :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 02, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
you going to cover that galvanized sq tubing with some stainless? from the things iv read on here, and vids iv watched, the moisture and acid in the wood will react, even with galv. steel and stain the wood. i was told the same by a nyles kiln rep when i was discussing using a conex as a kiln and using foam insulation with aluminum sheet to cover the foam. he said the moisture during drying will speed up the corrosion and stain the wood. 

not sure how long it would take for the acid to eat the galv. off the metal, leaving bare metal to the elements. 

im gonna go with 2"x2"x1/4" to bring my bunks up to the top of the carriage track, then bend some 0.062" stainless to cover the sq tubing and use some an3 or 4 bolts to secure the bunk covers to the tubing.  
we had a tool bin get knocked over and dumped 5 trays of an hardware (bolts of various lengths, washers, nuts, for the an and bac hardware. it was cheaper to sweep it up and "throw the away", than to pay several people $25-30 an hr to sort through the hardware and organize. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Ed_K on October 02, 2019, 10:26:26 AM
 My god no wonder everything cost so much these days  :o. Josh I like the wood lathe idea, just bought one little clean up of rust and some paint an I'll set your idea to it  ;) .
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 02, 2019, 03:15:08 PM
Jeez no I hadn't thought of that. Hadn't planned on it. Might just see how it goes with the species I run into here.

I'm still scratching my head about stabiliser legs ::) I cut a bit of steel the other day then put it away haha didn't like my thinking.

Found a pretty good deal on some low profile R13s, that has solved the blade interference problem. Rated for 900kg each, I doubt I'll ever bring 1.8T of timber home on it but who knows. I've been scratching my head about securing the carriage for travel as well. What do you guys think of using the saw heads lift..? I'll still have a pin or two each side that you drop into holes to stop it moving but I thought as well, I could loop a strap or a steel 'hook' over the carriage and then lift it until it barely stalls out, to take up any slop.  ??? ??? I'd have liked to just use the beam only but I have heard that motor skip teeth before. Not that that could happen from forces on the beam, with it being a lead screw... Maybe it could work. What do ya think


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191002_154447.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570043486)


If I looked in my rear vision mirror and saw my carriage tumbling end over end down the side of the highway I probably wouldn't stop :D I'd probably head straight to a good hypnotist to erase any memories of a sawmill from my mind  :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 02, 2019, 03:36:11 PM
I like you idea of securing it. right now mine get a pair of vice grips clamped in front of and behind the carriage. But I only move it around my property and I do have hooks to keep the carriage on the rails.

I would love to find some of those tires for mine. But I do not want to buy them :)

As for the staining of the wood. I dunno if the galvanizing will be ok or not. I can tell you After painting my mill I get blue lines on the bottom board. Before I would get black lines. Hopefully you will be ok with galvanized but when all else fails plan for stainless. I know V2.0 will have stainless or HDPE.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 02, 2019, 04:05:16 PM
They were only $80 odd NZ each the tyres, maybe $50US. Found a guy with an engineering shop who ordered them in bulk.

Yeah I've done some moving around with clamps but at highway speeds it def needs something better. I've towed it on the road with 2 strops over it but that's annoying to setup, I'd like something quick. 2 Pins, an arm swung up from the bed and secured to the beam, stall the lift out, and away you go. I'd love it if that were enough!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 02, 2019, 04:22:15 PM
IF, i can get my monster portable, i’ll turn the carriage sideways, setting it on the log bunks, or weld in “carriage bunks” and use turn buckles and rigging clevises to prevent lat/long movement, plus locking bars for the saw beam/eng frame, that will pin in place. 
Im hopping to locate, well located already, attempt to purchase a former military 5tn wrecker with a 7tn crane. I can climb in, lift the carriage in travel/work position, haul it to the job site, load logs onto the mill, off load the milled wood and go back hm. 
Plus its a 6 wheel drive with a tire inflation system, for them sandy location iv ran into before. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on October 02, 2019, 04:30:03 PM
I've been scratching my head about securing the carriage for travel as well. What do you guys think of using the saw heads lift..? I'll still have a pin or two each side that you drop into holes to stop it moving but I thought as well, I could loop a strap or a steel 'hook' over the carriage and then lift it until it barely stalls out, to take up any slop. ??? ??? I'd have liked to just use the beam only but I have heard that motor skip teeth before. Not that that could happen from forces on the beam, with it being a lead screw... Maybe it could work. What do ya think
 
I'm using chain (like bicycle chain) to raise and lower my head.  Four sets.  I was bringing my head home to work on it when I hit a small pothole before getting on the freeway.  I saw the head drop until it hit the sideboards on my trailer.  All four master links popped!  Now I loop a decent chain around the top of the saw frame and around the head.  Then I drop the head so only the heavy chains are supporting the weight.

I'm just saying, there are a lot of forces acting when you are going down the road.  I wouldn't want to have any unnecessary wear on your lead screw or nut.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: thecfarm on October 02, 2019, 08:09:44 PM
On mine mill they use 2 pieces of half inch flat stuck,4 inches wide maybe 8 inches long,with a ¾ inch hole for a ¾ inch bolt to go ito. One goes on top of the carriage and one under the carriage. One on each side of the mill. Tighten that down and it is not going to move. Locking nuts on each bolt. I have never tried them,but when he delivered the mill,they was on there. I myself would put something around the head of the bolt,to keep it from moving, so only one wrench, a rachet is needed.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 02, 2019, 09:15:03 PM
Have you got a photo handy by any chance? Sounds simple enough.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on October 02, 2019, 11:01:37 PM
Here's my set-up, it's solid. Not the best pics, but I just browsed through my pics and this is what I could come up with showing the carriage securing set-up.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20190619_144429~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570070658)



A hinged plate welded to the side of the frame that swings up to a piece of square tubing welded to the carriage frame and a pin inserted through to lock the carriage in place.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20180807_183001.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570070762)



(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50809/IMG_20180807_183023.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570070858)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 03, 2019, 02:28:44 AM
Ah yep I see it. That's a good idea. The carriage must rattle around a little though? With the slop in the pin and hinge?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 03, 2019, 03:16:34 AM
This is what I'm thinking for stabilising feet. I'm just dreading making 6 more of them haha...

If I do all 6 in stages it will prob only take me half a day, which makes them cheaper than anything else.. I'll drill holes in the leg spaced closer than the amount of thread available at the foot. Might put a hole in the base to insert a screw driver if it ever needs to be cranked tight.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191003_174428.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570087094)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191003_175819.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570086968)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on October 03, 2019, 10:56:47 AM
Ah yep I see it. That's a good idea. The carriage must rattle around a little though? With the slop in the pin and hinge?

It's actually quite snug, not really any slop at all, but with the weight of the carriage still sitting on the rails, it wears dimples in the rails over some travel time. I've welded them up and ground them smooth. What I'm looking at doing is to take the weight off of the carriage rollers once the carriage is locked in place.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 03, 2019, 04:37:46 PM
Ahh that's interesting to hear... I suppose it is a lot of weight on a very small surface area. I wonder if you could lay another length of angle iron long enough for just the carriage on top of the tracks. With the ends ground tapered like ramps. Lay it on the track and roll your carriage on before transport. Otherwise you'll need a mechanism to lift it won't you.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on October 03, 2019, 08:25:14 PM
Might put a hole in the base to insert a screw driver if it ever needs to be cranked tight.
If you ever set the sawmill up in the places that I normally set up in there will be trouble.  Soft ground means that the outriggers very often sink a couple of inches before they stabilize.  Even then I very often have to crank them again after loading and handling a heavy log.  The pads are quite large and I carry an assortment of boards, but even then I usually have to crank them up and out of the accumulated bark, sawdust, and mud/dirt when the sawing is completed.  Just saying that I would not want the threads at the bottom of the outriggers.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: WV Sawmiller on October 03, 2019, 10:41:58 PM
Lynn,

   And around here in winter those feet freeze in the mud and ice and you have to take a spud bar and sledgehammer to move them. Another good reason to have them sitting on the scrap boards and such as you describe.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on October 03, 2019, 10:51:43 PM
Ahh that's interesting to hear... I suppose it is a lot of weight on a very small surface area. I wonder if you could lay another length of angle iron long enough for just the carriage on top of the tracks. With the ends ground tapered like ramps. Lay it on the track and roll your carriage on before transport. Otherwise you'll need a mechanism to lift it won't you.

I have something in mind to lift each corner of the carriage just enough to take the weight off the rollers, and therefore the bearings too after the carriage locking pins are in place. Still running other possibilities through my mind too at this time.

I'm also thinking about locking the saw head down too. It currently just rests where it bottoms out at its' lowest position.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 04, 2019, 07:13:50 AM
Might put a hole in the base to insert a screw driver if it ever needs to be cranked tight.
If you ever set the sawmill up in the places that I normally set up in there will be trouble.  Soft ground means that the outriggers very often sink a couple of inches before they stabilize.  Even then I very often have to crank them again after loading and handling a heavy log.  The pads are quite large and I carry an assortment of boards, but even then I usually have to crank them up and out of the accumulated bark, sawdust, and mud/dirt when the sawing is completed.  Just saying that I would not want the threads at the bottom of the outriggers.
That's a valid point  :-\. I could put a bit of a leg on the bottom of the thread too to get it off the ground. I don't know what else to do I'll be paying at least $100/ea for proper stands. It'll be half the cost of the mill unpowered hah...

I machined the replacement pulleys and new shaft today. Looks solid. Has anyone used biloc pulleys mated together like this? I'm wondering if I'll have to do something about the gap between them.. The belts will diverge about 5mm over a couple of feet. Premature failure might be the theme of this mill yet  :)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191004_230832.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570187477)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191004_230839.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570187477)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 09, 2019, 07:05:28 AM
I dragged the thing into town to fit belts, got a much better fit this time it looks pretty robust. Still need to trim the idler stud to position it under the first set properly.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_215653.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617357)
 

I finally got around to adding a gauge to the jack. I drilled a blind hole in the bottom of it out of the way of any of the passages, and in an area where I could drill through the back plate it mounts to. Tapped that hole with a 1/8 BSP thread and then drilled a little 0.7mm hole on about a 45 degree angle, to join the cylinder cavity with the threaded cavity. The idea being if anything ever hammers the jack, the gauge won't explode in my face. I've tried wrenching on the jack lever and the gauge needle still moves slowly so hopefully it's about right.

Drilled an access hole in the back stop and then fitted it all up. I just need to build a bracket for the gauge but I think it's going to go pretty good. I had the hose made up in town, wasn't that cheap in the end. Hydraulics are nasty!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_113716.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617354)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_115727.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617354)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_133951.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617360)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_215620.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617356)
 

If anyone can be bothered doing the math... blade gullet is 26mm, 1mm thick. Jack bore is 24mm. I worked out I wanna be somewhere near 1700PSI. So I've been way overdoing it without the gauge. It'd be interesting to put a tension meter on the blade and see if it matches up there too, maybe there is force being exerted somewhere else in the mechanism.

What are the specifics to the measuring tension with verniers? Can it be done with a blade of unknown specs? Supplier couldn't tell me recommended tension let along specs.

I used a pretty similar idea for travel lock as above. I left 0.5mm between the tube/pins and it's still tight as hell after welding. Hopefully a bit of penetrating oil and time will resolve that problem. But other than it needing a whack to put in place, it holds it rock solid with no slop. The bolts are high tensile, 20mm.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191009_215549.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570617355)
 

Just got the feet to go now haha >:(

I think I'll use threaded rod from the hardware store and make it a top wind, with a drill or crank+socket. Just need to knuckle down on a good solid day
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 09, 2019, 07:17:15 AM
I like that lock plate alot. I may have to think about copying it. I would need to put it on the inside of the trailer though since my rail hooks would get in the way on the outside.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 09, 2019, 08:27:48 AM
Josh, regarding that gauge setup: That .7mm hole may be a bit small. Where I work we build hydraulic hand and power tools (up to 9,000 psi). We would only use a hole that small to control flow rate. For a gauge hole you may want to go bigger at around 2.5mm or so. You are seeing a slow response and this indicates the flow is restricted which will give you a lag while you are pumping it up. (also make sure you have the pocket bled out of all air)
 It is a little bit of a fallacy that hydraulics will 'explode' when something fails. The instant the pressure is released by expanding volume, it drops to zero because the oil is not compressed as air would be. The danger is when you have a small orifice that cannot release the pressure fast enough, then you have a powerful stream that can cause a lot of harm. So here, a bigger hole might be safer and give you better gauge response time.
 This is a small thought, I am just throwing it in. This build is going very nicely and I have been reading since you started, but never had anything to add. Keep on pluggin'!
Tom
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 09, 2019, 02:49:04 PM
I like that lock plate alot. I may have to think about copying it. I would need to put it on the inside of the trailer though since my rail hooks would get in the way on the outside.

Can't see any reason that wouldn't work. If I did it again I'd leave 1mm tolerance inside the tube and not be so worried about slop, torquing the bolt up actually takes care of that anyway. If the hinge of your plate is set out slightly off the frame then the bolt sandwiching everything together will not allow any rattling.

Interesting greenhorn I thought I'd done it too big, only chose .7mm because the thinner bits wouldn't reach. When I say needle moves slow, im not sitting there waiting patiently for a reading, it equalises in a second or so. I'll see how it behaves, might bore it out to 2mm as you say when I tear it down for painting.
I thought if a lump of bark went under the band/wheel or something and wrenched the drive wheel in, the gauge might not feel that sudden pressure thump quite so badly.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hilltop366 on October 09, 2019, 03:54:03 PM
Too late now but a possible low cost source for a small hose would be a replacement grease gun hose.

High pressure and 1/8" NPT thread.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 09, 2019, 04:06:01 PM
Yeah, good idea.. I looked at brake lines too, steel/hose, I ended up talking to a guy at a shop in town who was super helpful, busy as hell but put everything on hold to work this out. We came up with an idea of adapters for the gauge and 350mm of hose and I could see it would work and I'd walk away with it in my hand and said yayaya blast it up, thinking price would be pretty insignificant. Blazed off to buy a 1/8" tap for another $50 or so, so not a cheap solution really hah. Scratching it all up to making the workshop more capable in future.

Actually with a 30 degree elbow adapter it wouldn't even need a hose, it'd peak out from behind the jack, under the beam. Just couldn't see it at the time.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 09, 2019, 04:14:54 PM

I thought if a lump of bark went under the band/wheel or something and wrenched the drive wheel in, the gauge might not feel that sudden pressure thump quite so badly.
Well I see your gauge is a good quality glycerin filled one and it is nowhere near being maxed out, so I don't think you run any risk at all on that score. As I said it's a nit. What made me even mention it is because if there is a lag when you are pumping it up, by the time you see your target pressure and stop, it may go above it when it catches up. I just saw that it might be annoying  is all. 
 Too bad you aren't just a tad closer. I have a handful of brand new high pressure (8,000#)jumpers at around a foot long with a 1/8" NPTF male on each end just laying on a shelf as spares for a purpose I do not yet even have. ;D I would have been happy to give you a couple. But you will likely be cutting lumber by the time they might arrive, I would even know how to do the 'customs thing'.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 09, 2019, 06:48:38 PM
Nah it's barely noticeable, just makes the needle a bit spongey which is perfect.

Yeah international shipping wrecks any chance of that but thanks for the thought! It amazes me the range, I once ordered a packet of ~50 brass hooks+rivets to replace one that popped off my boot, from China, for a grand total of $1.48 including shipping  :D :D. The total cost of 100 brass components + freight is cheaper than I can send a letter in an envelope back to them.
Someone in the US might want $45 for freight for a little bag alone  ::)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 10, 2019, 06:27:56 PM
I had a bit of space left on one of the threads so measured it while torqued right up and turned a brass washer slightly thicker. I guess this is a no-no supporting the gauge like this?

I would like to get an RPM gauge for the idle wheel too, to monitor band/belt slipping. Any searches here turn up 0-8000rpm tachos for cars what would I look at for a cheap 1500rpm tach?

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191011_105914.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570746259)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on October 10, 2019, 07:15:22 PM
I see a lot of inexpensive tachs on amazon. 

Or - use an arduino, a couple sensors, an lcd, and have some thing that calculates and reads out as % slippage. Pretty simple to do. Any microcontroller could handle the job. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 10, 2019, 08:46:17 PM
What about a tach from a farm tractor? They pick up off a wire on the alternator, so you could fab a bracket and mount an alternator for additional 12v power, plus the tractor tach.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: pineywoods on October 10, 2019, 09:02:26 PM
I had a bit of space left on one of the threads so measured it while torqued right up and turned a brass washer slightly thicker. I guess this is a no-no supporting the gauge like this?

I would like to get an RPM gauge for the idle wheel too, to monitor band/belt slipping. Any searches here turn up 0-8000rpm tachos for cars what would I look at for a cheap 1500rpm tach?

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191011_105914.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1570746259)

Cheap tach for the idle bandwheel, $10 bicycle spedometer. A magnet glued to the wheel and pickup mounted to the frame.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 11, 2019, 03:18:54 AM
What about a tach from a farm tractor? They pick up off a wire on the alternator, so you could fab a bracket and mount an alternator for additional 12v power, plus the tractor tach.

That's an awful lot of installation for a tacho haha. I don't think I'll go LCD either I have those avr chips that you could program to measure slip% etc etc but I think just an analogue needle to scan, next to the tension needle, would be good.

I'll check out amazon
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 11, 2019, 07:20:21 AM
I love pineywoods idea. the bike speedo would be perfect.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Fergy on October 11, 2019, 09:24:07 AM
Google pressure gauge snubber 👍
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 13, 2019, 04:27:21 AM
What is a decent log hook made out of? For the likes of this mill what length would I be after and what material should the handle be to be light/strong enough? Once again not that available here and not a cheap item to ship I imagine.

I still haven't found an analogue tacho with its own sensor in the right RPM range, anyone have a link?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 13, 2019, 10:28:00 AM
Josh, did you look up bicycle speedometers? they can be calibrated to different wheel sizes.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on October 13, 2019, 11:28:17 AM
If you go the route of the bike speedometer, remember to mount the magnet more towards the center than the perimeter.  Out at the edge its speed passing the pickup is too fast to register.  I found that out on a 10 speed wheel.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 13, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
I can't find any bike Speedos that aren't a little glowing LCD Chinese looking p.o.s lol. I wonder if I could put a hall effect sensor on the shaft and generate a square pulse with a potted avr chip/circuit that any old tacho would read like an alternator.

I remember my other question finally, how long do bands last!? Not in bdft cause that doesn't make much sense to me but let's say 600mm/2ft diameter walnut logs that hadn't been drinking silica or anything silly, no nails... How many of them could you slab before you're needing to change? A ballpark figure i.e. 2-3 or 50? I have no idea.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 13, 2019, 08:50:13 PM
I can't find any bike Speedos that aren't a little glowing LCD Chinese looking p.o.s lol. I wonder if I could put a hall effect sensor on the shaft and generate a square pulse with a potted avr chip/circuit that any old tacho would read like an alternator.

I remember my other question finally, how long do bands last!? Not in bdft cause that doesn't make much sense to me but let's say 600mm/2ft diameter walnut logs that hadn't been drinking silica or anything silly, no nails... How many of them could you slab before you're needing to change? A ballpark figure i.e. 2-3 or 50? I have no idea.
could pull an alternator apart and harvest the components that would generate the pulse required and implement it onto your pulley shaft?
i asked a similar ? on blade life before and i can't remember who told me, or the BF he stated, but i think it was something around 350-400 BF, with several variables. hardness of the wood, how dry/seasoned the wood is, abrasive material (sand/dirt) embedded in the bark and so forth. but he did say, that was cutting an actual BF (1" thick, 12"wide, 12" long), so if you are cutting 2" thick, 24" wide and say 60" long technically, 20 BF but blade life count would be only 10 BF. your blades would last 2x longer than cutting a 1" thick board 24" x 60" x 2 boards for the same 20 BF, 3x if cutting 3" boards/slabs. yet you sell that material as 10 BF for the 1", 20 BF for 2" and so forth. at least if men serves correct, that is how he stated it.  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 13, 2019, 11:31:56 PM
Haha it's a bit of an odd thing to state blade life in BF you must admit =/. Like saying my cutoff saw disc will cut 3ton of steel before it needs replacing. But I get what you're saying. So, 2'wide x 8' slabs, only 25 of them best case? You guys must be swapping them every handful of logs?

I think the signal terminal on an alternator is just listening to one of the windings, via a diode. Half sine pulse. A lot of the alternator to take anyway I'm sure there'd be an easier way. I'll just keep an eye out a while longer.

I did a bit more sawing today, I'm having trouble with the idle wheel sleeve sticking on the beam, the gauge will leak down but the sleeve is still jammed there at full tension, happens unless it's freshly greased. I wonder if two rows of bolts in the back of the sleeve to act as jibs would be worth a go..? Or is that going to divot/dent the back of the beam =/
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 14, 2019, 12:22:09 AM
Haha it's a bit of an odd thing to state blade life in BF you must admit =/. Like saying my cutoff saw disc will cut 3ton of steel before it needs replacing. But I get what you're saying. So, 2'wide x 8' slabs, only 25 of them best case? You guys must be swapping them every handful of logs?


I did a bit more sawing today, I'm having trouble with the idle wheel sleeve sticking on the beam, the gauge will leak down but the sleeve is still jammed there at full tension, happens unless it's freshly greased. I wonder if two rows of bolts in the back of the sleeve to act as jibs would be worth a go..? Or is that going to divot/dent the back of the beam =/
 25 boards or 25 logs? at 2" thick, you may get, if the bf/blade is what i think he said, 2-3 logs, maybe 4. but from some of the vids iv watched and some comments here, i could see 3, maybe 4 logs at the dimensions you stated. 
i was thinking i may run into a similar issue, so if i do run into the same thing, I'm going to build a new idle box and use some thin (4 1/16") UHMW sheets to epoxy to the box. iv seen a lil water make sheets of uhmw slicker than owl poop on a hickory limb. its even slicker with oil. plus iv got a lil more slop in my box than i was intending it to have, so i may be able to just run a sanding wheel inside my box, get a lil more slop and be able to slip a couple sheets in, without having to build a new box. i'll also be pushing form the top and center of the box, and iv got 1" of steel on the top and bottom, mostly bc of an accident bc i didn't mark top or bottom and welding the 1/2" plate on the wrong side. didn't catch it till i had already drilled and tapped for the idle wheel shaft and it didn't line up like it should have. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 14, 2019, 07:51:53 AM
did a bit more sawing today, I'm having trouble with the idle wheel sleeve sticking on the beam,


I have a 3/8" bolt threaded in to prevent the sliding part from locking. Its just enough to keep it from binding, does not effect movement at all.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 14, 2019, 03:43:56 PM
That's good to know. Have you got a photo of where you placed it? Would a row not work better than a single bolt?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 14, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
It was part of the Linn plans. 

Hmm maybe I put it on the side not the top. Either way I do not have any issues with binding. Here is the only picture I could find in my gallery


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/IMG_2134.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505908872)


They are just 3/8-16 threaded holes that I put bolts in to take up the slop. Keeps the alignment closer when I loosen and tighten the blade.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 14, 2019, 06:50:54 PM
I was looking on the mcmaster carr website for some longer set screws for my sprockets and came across some with a roller ball in the end. Might could check them out and see if it would work for you.

Here is the link. 

https://www.mcmaster.com/screws (https://www.mcmaster.com/screws)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 14, 2019, 07:54:49 PM
That's a cool idea. I'll try bolts first. I might put one on the top edge and side edges under compression and see how that goes. Can always fill it with weld.

Gotta have an office day today :'(
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 14, 2019, 09:30:11 PM
When crusarius mentioned bolts, that sound a LOT better, cheaper and easier than rebuilding the box or hogging out metal to slide the uhmw in place. Im not a fan of blunt bolts scraping against the beam, gouging out metal, so if iv got to much play, im gonna order enough roller set screws to instal 4 on ea axis that needs shimming. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 15, 2019, 03:15:36 AM
Next time it sticks I'll see which of these causes it to let go. I can't really get my head around which direction the force is in, when I back off the jack the sleeve does rock and I can't remember which direction, only that I couldn't make sense of why.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191015_193350.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1571122790)<br

Another thing I'd like to add to the mill is a ratchet pin on a spring, that clicks into a slot when the carriage is pulled to the head of the bed. So when you opened the throttle you'd lift the pin and away you go. Could have a lug to set it on so it doesn't catch if not in use, but I've found when I walk away with the engine idling it vibrates itself down the track.

And... little wood blocks screwed to a bit of angle iron welded to the bunks, to set the unused clamps on so they don't hang down in the dirt.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on October 15, 2019, 04:38:30 AM
from where you are pushing, it should be binding either on top, near the acme rod, or at the bottom on the outer edge of the saw beam. that if you are pushing dead center on the box. if those bolts don't tell you where its binding, you could possibly try feeler gauges and seeing where you have largest and smallest gap between the box and beam. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 15, 2019, 09:27:46 AM
Charles I thought about using those same roller ball setscrews. I decided to try it with the bolts instead. They worked great.

The bolts are only a guide and barely touch anything at all. they are just there to take up the extra slop in the sleeve. The only reason I use them is I was noticing some inconsistencies with blade tracking when I would change blades since the sliding part never returned to the same point. The bolts make sure it does. It is also quite a bit easier to align the mill with those bolts in place. This cuts out alot of variation in slide movement.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 16, 2019, 05:59:46 AM
Yup the bolts are working fine. 

I had a good session on it today, picked out the little logs I wanted rid of. Actually cut a lot of them into firewood, I'm quickly realising what's even worth lifting onto the bed and what's not.

I picked out a dirty walnut log with a big flare that acquired most of the throat, and it went really good. I was pushing hard to see what's what and I did get a slight wave in one slab, maybe a 1/8" trough over 8" or so. That would be pretty normal for a blade that's done 5-6 small logs being pushed fairly hard..?


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191016_164103.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1571219005)
 

I will say - to anyone reading this in future designing their own mill, the backstops being so close to the inside blade guide is a complete ballsup and I'm gonna change them, or add pockets for the stops further out. It just doesn't allow for non-straight logs which is most it seems... Knot stubs, untrimmed branches, bends, butt flares, if it's not something it's something else. I won't take it out of the shed again before I fix this, it's a pain in the butt...

I slabbed up some shorter stuff for lathe blanks, what a breeze compared to using the chainsaw...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191016_133826.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1571219002)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191016_160452.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1571219005)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 16, 2019, 07:49:04 AM
I will say - to anyone reading this in future designing their own mill, the backstops being so close to the inside blade guide is a complete ballsup and I'm gonna change them, or add pockets for the stops further out. It just doesn't allow for non-straight logs which is most it seems... Knot stubs, untrimmed branches, bends, butt flares


Exactly the same thing I have found with my setup. It can definitely not be said enough times. That is probably the biggest snafu on my mill. I actually ended up moving the entire head over to alleviate some of that headache, but now I hit the mast with the log.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hoopty5.0 on October 16, 2019, 08:12:29 AM
I too had to move my backstops before I cut my first log. Not ideal either, I lost a few inches of log capacity.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 16, 2019, 08:26:20 AM
Any chance you could place a rough cut 2x4 next to the stops to move them over? I have had to do this a time or two with bent logs, sometimes just at one end.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ktm250rider on October 16, 2019, 12:05:11 PM
add me to the list of back stops in the way!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on October 16, 2019, 12:14:49 PM
me, too... :-\
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 17, 2019, 04:51:47 PM
All someone has to do is sift through 11 pages of nonsense and they'll stumble across that little nugget of wisdom and save themselves some trouble haha.

You can greenhorn but ive found I've had to do that almost every time, it's just a nuisance. There's no clearance at all, a knot stub sticking out a half inch is enough. I'm probably going to set them in a good 6-8 inches and leave the old pockets there.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 28, 2019, 04:34:50 AM
I found a spare day today and did a bit of playing around trying to figure out these legs. Still...

Came up with this. The lengths of the tubes need to be cut to suit and it needs to be foldable I think. No use making a mill portable and then having it bottom out on anything but a tennis court.

I turned a length of acme thread, with a 16mm shaft and M16 thread at the top, then secured it in the larger tube free to rotate. I'll probably get rid of the second nut and roll pin the first one, which will be used to torque the leg up and down. The inside tube has the nut welded to the top and just rides up and down.

Don't know if I like it or not. Can't believe I'm still hung up here. 2 months to build a mill, 1 month to build the legs?..


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191028_172218.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572241698)
 


I did weld some new pockets about 6" in and have since gone around and welded handles to the end of the adjustment bolts. Otherwise I've been stalled. Lacking inspiration and just generally busy.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 28, 2019, 06:52:10 AM
That happened to me on the backstops. Took forever to figure out what I was doing and now I want to change them :) 

Good luck.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on October 28, 2019, 07:50:43 AM
That outrigger design will work quite well Sir.  8)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 28, 2019, 08:06:31 AM
I definitely agree with magicman. The biggest trick is figuring out how to make them swing out of the way.

2 ways I can think of quickly. 

a clamp collar that will loosen drop the legs then tighten in place. of course this would basically defeat the purpose of adjustable.

pivot with a pin just like a trailer jack. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on October 28, 2019, 08:19:49 AM
Mine don't swing up, etc.  Holes and a pin drops the inner portion down, and then the fine adjust takes over from there to do the final adjust.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: blderman on October 28, 2019, 04:42:03 PM
I found a spare day today and did a bit of playing around trying to figure out these legs. Still...

Came up with this. The lengths of the tubes need to be cut to suit and it needs to be foldable I think. No use making a mill portable and then having it bottom out on anything but a tennis court.

I turned a length of acme thread, with a 16mm shaft and M16 thread at the top, then secured it in the larger tube free to rotate. I'll probably get rid of the second nut and roll pin the first one, which will be used to torque the leg up and down. The inside tube has the nut welded to the top and just rides up and down.

Don't know if I like it or not. Can't believe I'm still hung up here. 2 months to build a mill, 1 month to build the legs?..


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191028_172218.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572241698)
 


I did weld some new pockets about 6" in and have since gone around and welded handles to the end of the adjustment bolts. Otherwise I've been stalled. Lacking inspiration and just generally busy.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52774/Blue_Pine~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572295124)
 
I mounted my jacks on the outboard side and don't like it.  They are constantly in the way and getting hit by logs....and my knees.  At some point this winter I will be changing this, just thought I would offer this up as perspective for your design. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 28, 2019, 05:04:18 PM
Mine will have to go below the saw band, the saw wheels extend out too far beyond the bed for them to sit up proud like yours so I wonder if 1, having them lower than the bed might mitigate this and 2, having no handle on top. Just a nice sharp nut to catch your shins on =/...

I will try and put them inside the rails if I can work out a space where they can hinge away.

I checked surplus center again, $20 a piece for bracketed stands :'(. I might phone them and see if I can work out a deal on shipping them.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on October 28, 2019, 08:55:39 PM
I mounted mine on the inside.  My bunks move and sometimes I need to move/remove them to adjust as the handles swing in a pretty big arc.  I lucked out and got all 12 for free.  They are 2,000lb rated.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/150107_005.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1420700042)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hilltop366 on October 28, 2019, 09:39:32 PM
I found a spare day today and did a bit of playing around trying to figure out these legs. Still...

Came up with this. The lengths of the tubes need to be cut to suit and it needs to be foldable I think. No use making a mill portable and then having it bottom out on anything but a tennis court.

I turned a length of acme thread, with a 16mm shaft and M16 thread at the top, then secured it in the larger tube free to rotate. I'll probably get rid of the second nut and roll pin the first one, which will be used to torque the leg up and down. The inside tube has the nut welded to the top and just rides up and down.

Don't know if I like it or not. Can't believe I'm still hung up here. 2 months to build a mill, 1 month to build the legs?..


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191028_172218.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572241698)
 


I did weld some new pockets about 6" in and have since gone around and welded handles to the end of the adjustment bolts. Otherwise I've been stalled. Lacking inspiration and just generally busy.
Could add one more tube that the whole leg drops in with a spring loaded pin and some holes in your current outer tube (may need to add a thicker piece of metal for the holes) then you could lift the legs up out of the way for good ground clearance for transport.

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ManjiSann on October 29, 2019, 09:13:50 AM
Haven't had the time to read the entire thread but what I've seen I really like! 

Posting so I can find the thread to finish it when I have the time. Some day I hope to build one!

Brandon 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on October 29, 2019, 09:40:16 AM
Could add one more tube that the whole leg drops in with a spring loaded pin and some holes in your current outer tube (may need to add a thicker piece of metal for the holes) then you could lift the legs up out of the way for good ground clearance for transport.
The Wood-Mizer FAO's have 3 sections.  The bottom (inside) section drops down and is pinned with holes through the second section.  The top of the second section contains threads and is then screwed down.  The threaded rod is of course attached to the top of the outside section.  Three telescoping sections makes the FAO short for transportation.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hilltop366 on October 29, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Yep, same thing, only different.  :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 30, 2019, 09:29:41 PM
I heard back from surplus center, $120 worth of stands to my address, just a wee extra $460 for freight  :o don't know why I bothered asking.

So I'm back to fabricating something like what I've got here, and adding swivels.

I got distracted with repairing an old wood clamp I inherited maybe a decade ago, it was snapped at the end of the thread and had no foot. I built up a mass of steel on the end of the thread with the welder then ground a ball on the end with drill+bench grinder. Turned a foot, and a handle, and blued/punched on there. Jeez lathes are cool  8) they should be standard issue at birth.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191029_192221.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572485068)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191029_192932.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572485064)
 

My dad and I have been doing a bit of work on his boat, he's upgraded his anchor winch to an auto capstan, I've been keeping a close eye on the old one sitting there not gaining any attention  :)
It'd make a much better motor to drive the lead screws but I guess it's a shame to dissemble a functioning winch. Not that I really need a winch

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191030_104328.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572485062)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on October 31, 2019, 07:43:18 AM
Wouldn't be a shame at all. The shame is something sitting collecting dust and not getting used when you have a use for it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on October 31, 2019, 11:28:03 PM
Is there any useful function for a winch on the mill? Not if I take a tractor everywhere I go probably...

I finally knuckled down and smashed out the jack threads. It actually wasn't so bad at all I did the shafts in maybe 3 hours and the nuts in 1. I was doing the first shaft with hss slowly under coolant, then had a light bulb moment while texting a friend about it and thought to myself why aren't I doing this fast, with carbide. I couldn't do the lead screws like that cause the shaft hanging out the headstock got out of kilter but I didn't have that prob here.
Long story short they're all turned at about 900RPM, gave myself a big relief to stop at the end with the foot brake. Fast carbide is Def the way I'll thread from now on!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191031_231221.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572578524)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191101_144332.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572578521)
 

My only concern is I only have a 2mm shoulder holding the weight. A thrust bearing would be better but they're about $20ea. I might weld a collar on but probably not now.

Will be one nut on each thread on top of a washer and the nut will be secured with a roll pin flush with edges. I might raise the stop that the shaft snugs up against too, to get some more weld on it. The weight will be hanging off a weld but I think 8" of bead around it should do ok.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191101_124001.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572578521)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Magicman on November 01, 2019, 08:40:36 AM
Very nice.   smiley_thumbsup  Slather them thoroughly with white grease.   ;D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 07, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
What's your guys gut feeling on using 3mm wall tube for swivel mounts for these legs? It's the only tube around I can find that telescopes and even then it needed a quick skim with the lathe.

The outside is say 50x3mm, inside obviously 44x3mm now. Would only be a stub, just long enough to fit two locating pin holes at 90 to eachother.

Otherwise it's back to the steel shop for another couple hundred bucks =/
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191108_122624.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573169301)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 07, 2019, 08:45:25 PM
That will be fine. you have plenty of surface area to spread the load.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 10, 2019, 06:39:51 AM
I finally got around to cutting and drilling the tubes. All the holes line up perfectly, surprisingly  8).

Ive left bugger all tolerance between the tubes, I didn't want there to be any slop in the legs, so I'll spend the next couple of days adding several spots of welds to each tube whenever I think of it. I managed to keep them all inboard, and they're pretty low profile, quite a good addition I think. I was also thinking I'll put threaded rod just above the suspension leaves, to wind down and lock them from bouncing. This must be common practice? Either lift the axle off the ground, or lock the leaves and use it as extra support?

I'll put feet on them, also want to add wooden blocks somewhere for the log clamps to press against during travel. Then paint it. Then I'll call it finished I think. Am I forgetting anything? Mud guards... They're folded and ready to go I think I'm just going to put shafts at each end of the guards that slide sideways into the frame and nut, or linch pin in.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191110_230805.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573385303)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191110_230533.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573385301)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191110_230617.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573385301)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191110_230627.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573385303)


I spent more time fixing my lathe than I did using it this week. One of the gears decided it no longer fit on the gearshaft, and wouldn't shift  >:( >:(. I had to drift the shaft out and the bearings off, and it didn't go back nicely I had to file some burrs away. Might be the beginning of a drawn out end I don't know. Chinese crap  ::)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 10, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
I wish I had put my jacks inboard like that. I think you will be happy. I am still willing to bet money your going to hate that tongue and it will get changed within the first year of cutting :)

Mill is looking great.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 10, 2019, 02:06:30 PM
Which tongue is that?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 10, 2019, 05:33:38 PM
the trailer tongue / knee buster / I am sick of walking around this thing tongue. :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 10, 2019, 07:26:30 PM
Well I can't weld it to the back of my Ute XD. What do you propose I change it to haha
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 10, 2019, 07:55:25 PM
I have been following your thread all along but I didn't have much to add realizing that I was listening to the big boys talking. It's been a fun ride. I just wanted to say that I wish I had one quarter of you fabrication skills. (I also wish I had a little bit of your equipment ;D).
 You do some mighty fancy work and I hope you take that as a compliment coming from a former toolmaker, now designer.
 Rock on man!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 10, 2019, 08:44:38 PM
What do you propose I change it to?

Replace the tongue with a receiver or two.  Then you can plug the tongue in when you need to tow and remove it when you are cutting.  Keeps people from stealing your mill!  Also, if you decide to add more track in the future, you could possibly make use of the receiver(s) to attach it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 11, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
What ljohnsaw said :)

He was faster than me.

I used a piece of 2.5" about 24" long welded to the bottom of the mill and just have a 6' long 2x2 with a trailer hitch on it. Works great I can get it out of the way when I don't need it and anti theft is a huge plus.

It also doubles as the tongue for my log arch.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 11, 2019, 01:36:20 PM
That'd be a real pita to change lol id def shake if you're betting money =p.

You're talking get rid of the a-frame entirely and end the receiver hole at the frame? I have actually been tossing up the idea of having a fold down section that sits on the a-frame, for the carriage to wheel back onto, to free up the whole bed for a log. I just don't know how easily alignment would be, and making the joint in the angle iron seemless.

Greenhorn thanks and awfully nice of you to say! Lucky you can't see any of it close up you'd realise I'm just another backyard hack like the rest of them haha.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 11, 2019, 01:45:25 PM
Josh if your going to do that with the extension you do not need the transition perfect. The mill will not cut until the rollers are on the other section anyhow. 

I thought about that exact same thing with mine. Just making very light duty fold out extensions so I can have the full 24' trailer for logs.

Be easy to make a fold out section hinged vertically on the corner of the trailer just strong enough to hold the head. Could be 2 pieces on each end of the mill. unfold like a saloon door.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 11, 2019, 02:13:55 PM
Yeah it would be easy. Wouldn't need cross members because it will only ever have the carriage on it. I think the hinge would have to be adjustable in height and you'd prob need shims for where the head of it lands.

Still, that only gets me a 16ft log, if I want longer I'll have to do an extension off the back and then, is it even worth it.

The blade will be deep in a cut by the time the rear wheels cross the joint, don't forget that. Might cause a little divot in the wood if it wasn't perfectly seamless.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 11, 2019, 02:33:33 PM
doubt you will see it unless you have a giant hole.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 12, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
Well is 16ft enough or do I want more haha. I don't think I'll ever want to deal with 16ft lengths of timber but maybe someone might.

Got everything welded up, nothing distorted too much it all is snug, pretty happy with it. Walking around on top of it feels like solid ground now. Cranking the nuts enough to jack the side of the mill up takes bugger all torque it's def not going to worry the roll pins.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191113_125048.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573604424)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 12, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
I said 16' would be big enough so I built mine to do 20. Now I need 23' roof joists.

Just like a shop. It is never big enough. :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Ed_K on November 13, 2019, 11:48:53 AM
 Friend of mine has receiver tubes on both ends for moving the mill. works good for moving into tight setups.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 13, 2019, 04:42:13 PM
It'd be an interesting tow, from the other end haha. All the weight + overhang on the rear of the wheels. I'll leave it as is for now I think it'll do enough road miles that a solid A frame will be worthwhile. Even in the workshop I quite often step through it. Maybe I'll get sick of that as my legs get older.

Are we all of the opinion these mud guards will look retarded =/. They're too big I think.. The only other material I have around is some 3mm aluminium checker plate, I might have to cut and fold some of that.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191114_100056.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573681232)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191114_100045.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1573681238)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 18, 2019, 06:13:45 AM
This is the way I've gone with the mud guards, or where I'm going at least. Will drill and linch pin the back of the pins. Any thoughts...? Decided they'd have to do not gonna bother with alloy.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191118_211842.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075300)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191118_225125.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075289)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191118_225111.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075291)
 

I got one of those stubby lens kits for my Tig torch last week. Sure does look nice compared to the stick!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191118_220910.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075295)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191118_223815.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075294)
 

Also got some wooden stops mounted for the clamps, I've been meaning to do this for a long time. Theres actually lots of little things I want to do like this I'll keep picking them off as I remember them.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191114_152408.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574075300)
 

If the mudguards go on alright tomorrow I'll do the lights and wiring and then take it to the garage to get road legal I think. The guy said they can warrant it before it's painted so I'll give it a bit more use before finishing it yet.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 18, 2019, 09:32:42 AM
Are your fenders going to be removable?  Don't need a log rolling off and squishing them...  Oh, never mind.  I see it now. ::)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 18, 2019, 01:24:51 PM
They'll be the first thing I do after parking, I might have big "remove before sawing" stickers made up for them. Otherwise someone is going to collect them with the saw.

Hopefully just the two pins is enough to support them
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 18, 2019, 01:31:50 PM
better than my approach. I figure one day I will remove the top of the tire :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 18, 2019, 01:53:45 PM
Make sure you film it for us!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 18, 2019, 02:45:20 PM
They'll be the first thing I do after parking, I might have big "remove before sawing" stickers made up for them. 
That might be a little cottage industry for you, making those stickers. I am stationary, but I hear a lot of guys with mobile mills have found different ways to bang up their fenders and worse.
 I leave my socket wrench on the tensioning nut after I shut down for the day so that I will remember to tension the band before the next session . I know that one of the days....... So maybe I will tie a "remove before sawing" flag on it. Come to think of it, I used to have a 'remove before flight' flag hanging around here somewhere. I'd use that if I ever find it. ;D ;D :D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: SawyerTed on November 18, 2019, 07:12:37 PM
I've been enjoying this thread.  +1 on the fabrication skills, I'm impressed.

@Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) removing the fenders does not ensure they won't get dinged up.  I took mine off and put them "out of the way" down the hill.  The first log I needed to load decided to try to get away.  Yep, it found my fenders!  At least they stopped the log, both of them..... :D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on November 18, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
As far as I know, fenders are supposed to get dinged up.  :(  At least all mine on every trailer have some sort of “enhancement “.  They just aren’t supposed to interfere with sawing or log loading. 

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 18, 2019, 09:07:33 PM
@Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) You beat me to it. Iv got a couple handfuls of those remove flags. I had plans of using them on my mill. If i can obtain an old mil 5 ton wrecker, there are several locations i’ll need to put them on to remind me to secure before travel and release prior to operation. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 18, 2019, 09:16:21 PM
As I get older I find I need to leave reminders for myself. I have a routine on my mill, when I close up, I have a coffee can (they are plastic now, you know?) and I put that on top of my scale bar to keep it from poking through the tarp, my ratchet in that can when I am milling, so when I pick up the can, I HAVE to take the ratchet out of it. so then I use the ratchet to loosen the band. When I open the mill up, I reverse the process. 
 I don't know how well I would do with fenders though, if I had them. It would look a bit strange heading down the road with 5 or 6 little red flags flipping in the breeze. ;D :D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 19, 2019, 01:12:47 AM
You'll love this then greenhorn...

I can't get the mill carriage unlocked until the fenders have been removed because I cant fold down the brackets with them there... Will just go ahead and say that was intentionally designed =D


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191119_184018.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574143772)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191119_184009.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574143772)
 

It all went together pretty well. Linch pins are holding it nicely. Doesn't look ridiculous I don't think.

Ran out of rods before I got the brackets welded up and got into a packet of 7018s I had, to get finished. Think I'm gonna drop them in the trash haha.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 19, 2019, 02:07:11 AM
Yeah, 7018 takes some gettin' useta.  I was a few pounds in until I got the hang of it.  I think I've burned up about 100 pounds in the last few years now.  I got a 50 lb box for $40 off of CL.  But I love it now - so much less splatter than 6011 or 6013.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 19, 2019, 03:27:27 AM
I just find I can't see a puddle. Seems to just be a cloud of (EDITED BY ADMIN) spraying out the end of it there's no real red blob you can see toeing nicely with the parent metal.

Maybe I'll hang onto them a bit longer. Do you keep yours warm
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 19, 2019, 06:57:13 AM
I would say that is very good design work! Are you going to out some light plate on the inside of those fenders to reduce spray up on the mill? Very nice stuff Josh!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 19, 2019, 07:19:50 AM
I love it when something like that happens. not a design intention but works great :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 19, 2019, 09:31:16 AM
Maybe I'll hang onto them a bit longer. Do you keep yours warm
 
I do nothing special to keep my sticks dry or warm.  Even though it rains for 2 or 3 month in the winter, the humidity is pretty low otherwise.  Maybe if I kept them in an oven/dry box it would be easier, but I've learned to make them work.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 19, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
And do you keep a file in your pocket for starting a used rod too? Those buggers do not want to relight! Mine all sit in a nice dry office above a heater so I've got no excuse really.

I hadn't planned on a plate inside, I suppose I should. I'll do it later XD. I want to get the lights on and get the warrant out of the way.

I need a bit more bracing in the carriage too I've noticed it racks a little, in the horizontal plane. I was watching a video of a small wood mizer last week which was doing it too. I'm gonna put the saw head at max height then run a couple lengths of bars across corners I think
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 19, 2019, 02:15:56 PM
I keep mine in an airtight tube. when they are trouble starting I just find a spot that is not readily visible and drag till they arc. after the first arc they are usually fine.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on November 19, 2019, 02:53:23 PM

I hadn't planned on a plate inside, I suppose I should. I'll do it later XD.
 
Just keep in mind how much clearance you need to slide the fenders out before it reaches the tire.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 19, 2019, 07:02:38 PM
Take the rod out of the stinger, bump it against the metal to knock the flux off the tip, reinsert and strike the arc. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 19, 2019, 08:41:26 PM
And do you keep a file in your pocket for starting a used rod too?
 
I leave it in the stinger, grab the rod at the tip and drag it across my concrete floor.  That usually breaks the glaze off the tip that keeps it from starting.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: thecfarm on November 20, 2019, 05:59:25 AM
I hope I did not all ready post this.
Looks like your log stops are going straight up and down? I have a Thomas and that's how mine are. I painted lines on mine. Four inches is really 3½ and 6 inches is really 5½ inches and so on. So when I am sawing flitches,I set it at 6 inches, I know I have a ½ inch to spare. That way no guessing at how high to put them.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 24, 2019, 02:08:51 AM
What do you guys make of this? It's a wild cherry tree a friend has left upright for me in a back yard. Wondered if the pattern of the scar or whatever might be something that sticks out to one of you veterans..




(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191124_193705.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574579261)
 

Will obviously poke around with the chainsaw before I put the mill through it but any suggestions as to where to start =/
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JJ on November 24, 2019, 01:32:03 PM
eyebolt for a clothes line would be my guess.
the bolt is likely still there in center.   I've had a few like that from a dog lead.

         JJ
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 24, 2019, 03:16:39 PM
Yeah I bet it's still in there too. I suppose an axe is the most sensible first port of call
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ManjiSann on November 24, 2019, 05:33:33 PM
One of those new fangled easy open trees! Just pull the tab and the bark falls right off!

Brandon 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 26, 2019, 02:01:20 AM
I finally got it around to the garage to get its road warrant. Officially legal to tow it on the road now.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_150436.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751193)
 

I ended up just tacking on some rounds to slot a dingy trailer board in as a temporary measure. Will install proper lights after painting. Also had to add side markers as the saw wheels were over width, they're just on plugs.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_150446.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751191)
 

I also added some bracing, put the saw beam at max height and put 2 lengths in basically the only place they'd fit. It's actually added some complex geometry within it and looks quite cool I think. The carriage is solid as a rock now anyway no more flexing.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_150457.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751188)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_150507.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751184)
 

I put all the small scrappy bits of walnut on and got them out of the way. Jeez it's fun to use.

When does the urge to take a photo of every single board wear off haha...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_155401.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751177)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191126_155745.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574751178)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Ianab on November 26, 2019, 03:52:04 AM
I finally got it around to the garage to get its road warrant. Officially legal to tow it on the road now.


Looking good. 

Here in NZ, if you are towing it, it needs to have a plate, and pass annual inspection as a "trailer".  That means working lights, and a basic check that it's not going to fall apart from rust or cracked welds. 

Good thing you didn't go any wider, or you would need a pilot vehicle and a permit. :-\
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 26, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
When does the urge to take a photo of every single board wear off haha...


When you realize you still need to sticker and stack everything at the end of the day :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ManjiSann on November 26, 2019, 08:39:23 AM
The walnut is pretty! 

Nice build! Bet it feels good to get it all legal  8) 8) 8)

I'll let you know if/when the urge to take pics of every board wears off, so far it hasn't for me  :D :D It's so much fun you want to share it with everyone, at least I do  ;D ;D

Brandon 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 26, 2019, 08:40:28 AM
When does the urge to take a photo of every single board wear off haha...


When you realize you still need to sticker and stack everything at the end of the day :)
I'll second that. On days I am going hot and heavy to get things done, beat the weather, or the sunset, I take very few photos (and regret it later). As much as I take pictures to share here I mostly take them as a record or a reminder to look into something further or for a lookup reference when I get back to my desk. But some days there is just no time. ;D
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 27, 2019, 08:41:21 PM
I haven't done any big days with a big stacking job at the end yet. Most is toying/tweaking and I don't end up with enough boards to bother strapping.

The straps on the last stack of slabs have gone completely slack. Wondering if the strappings even worth the time.

Hopefully this one doesn't get me in trouble haha here's the quick and dirty hook. The point actually took me two goes the geometry there is quite critical I found.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191128_122321~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574904940)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191128_140731~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574904941)
 

The toe is a shaft with two diameters turned, one fits the handle and is plug welded, the other is turned at 90 and welded. The hooks a hook =/ that I cut with an angle grinder haha  :'( hence the welded point, just made things a bit easier
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 28, 2019, 01:12:22 AM
I pinned up a stainless ruler today, prob not ideal for what this is doing but it's better than nothing for now I'll come up with something else later after painting.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191128_180402.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1574921454)
 

@charles mann (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41365) you'd be a good person to ask, what's on the end of a prop tacho from a Cessna 206 haha. Sounds like I might have had one put aside for me at work. just the gauge. It prob wants a tachogen does it?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 28, 2019, 01:30:49 AM
I pinned up a stainless ruler today, prob not ideal for what this is doing but it's better than nothing for now I'll come up with something else later after painting.

That will work in the short term.  But what you need is a scale that is adjusted for the blade kerf.  Mine has 1/16" added for each mark on each scale.  This one is for 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6".  I put 4 quarter inch super magnets on each end but that wasn't enough to keep it from sliding around when pushing the head.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171103_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509742183)



So I added a toggle clamp.  Works great.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171103_d.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509742203)
This one is a little ugly but I use it the most as it has all the scales I need.  I also added a little mark half way between the normal marks.  That way I can center the pith on a "half mark" and then go up to get my target wood.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Improved_Scale.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568767498)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 28, 2019, 02:52:59 AM
Yeah I saw that in your thread. None of my sawing will be done to inches or this quarters business remember haha. I think for now adding the kerf to the target cut in my head will be fine.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 28, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
Josh, I started with a tape measure and a magnet. now I have a really fancy scale I milled out of a piece of aluminum.

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 28, 2019, 10:19:02 AM
@JoshNZ (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) 
Never worked on stuck wings. But if i had to guess, it would be similar to a wheel or yoke speed sensor or maybe a mag pick up on a chainsaw. Iv never flown a 206, just 152 and 172 for the cessna brand. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on November 28, 2019, 02:41:14 PM
Yeah I saw that in your thread. None of my sawing will be done to inches or this quarters business remember haha. I think for now adding the kerf to the target cut in my head will be fine.
 Well, maybe.  Say you want to cut the equivalent of 2x4s (50.8x101.6mm?)  Your kerf is something like 3mm?  Maybe 4?  So your cuts would be at 53, 106, 159 etc.  So much easier to make a stick with 1, 2, 3, 4... that have all that math already done.  Even with a good stick, you'll make mistakes and screw up a cut or two. ;)  Especially at the end of the day!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 29, 2019, 04:28:46 PM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191129_101918.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575062485)
 

Well first job away for us yesterday. A good friend had a cherry tree take down on his back yard. All went good, nothing broken etc. Had the guys cutting boards on it too, easy enough to use for everyone. Actually the biggest ballsup was my own when I crashed the blade guide lower bolt into a log stop. Derailed the front wheels of the carriage. It makes me think maybe I should capture it somehow.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191129_130054.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575062479)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191129_145251.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575062483)
 

I do need some digger work done on my orchard so it might work out to be the most profitable job the mill ever does haha.

Stuffed if I know what to do for an extension. It does need it, either front or back. I want to get it painted it's stressful slinking around between rain showers (particularly in 4seasons1day NZ). But I think I have to add one to it one way or another
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 29, 2019, 06:03:57 PM
Actually the biggest ballsup was my own when I crashed the blade guide lower bolt into a log stop.


exact reason i want to be on the same side as the stops, even if it that is the discharge side. plus with trees i wouldn't be able to see over, i wouldn't trust myself operating from the other side. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on November 29, 2019, 07:29:19 PM
Josh. all you need is some flip out extensions on each end of the trailer. They only need to be strong enough to support the head. That will give you a little extra length for very little work.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 29, 2019, 07:50:11 PM
What's the difference between hitting dogs and log stops though Charles ones out of sight either way. I feel like stops you can put measurement marks on so would be safer to leave unmonitored than dogs, particularly the style that swing up in an arc anyway.

Was just another teething moment. The blade was clear but the bolt hung below the guide. I've bought a pack of M10 grub screws, so everything will be flush I've just not got around to switching them out yet.

Im still not decided on the light weight head extension or a proper 2-3m log bed extension at the tail. Anything at the tail will have to be built properly as it'll have log on it.

This aircraft tacho is exactly what I need. Takes a spinning shaft into the back and has inbuilt fly weights that swing the needle, so I'll make something to attach that and that'll be my blade RPM tacho sorted.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 29, 2019, 08:07:44 PM
@JoshNZ (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) 

True dat on the clamp, i hadnt put much thought in a clamp yet though. Heck, i dont even have stops built yet. 

Try a google search for the maint manuals and maybe the operator manual for the 206. The ops man will give you theory of ops and description and the maint will give you the break down of the tach system. 

Since iv never flown or even been in a stuck wing 206, i cant say on which tach you have. The only complex acft iv flown only had an eng tach, no prop and used manifold pressure to balance prop angle to eng rpm. Usually X psi for X eng rpm, ei: 2400 rpm = 24 psi on the manifold gage. All helicopters though have an eng and rotor tach, and most piston types run eng rpm off the mags and rotor off the xmsn, as where some turbines run eng off the n1 ( compressor side) and rotor from a tach gen on the xmsn. The heli i work on, eng is at the n1 and rotor is measured at the swashplate. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 29, 2019, 08:16:31 PM
I can grab the input shaft at the back of the tacho and spin it with my fingers, which swings the needle up and then decays as it slows. So really all I need to do is get the idle shafts rpm into the back with a spinning cable or flex shaft I'd say. Depends where I mount it
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on November 30, 2019, 12:08:53 AM
It's nice when you can haul your mill to a site and set it up and mill some logs.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 30, 2019, 12:38:19 AM
What's the difference between hitting dogs and log stops though Charles ones out of sight either way. I feel like stops you can put measurement marks on so would be safer to leave unmonitored than dogs, particularly the style that swing up in an arc anyway.

Was just another teething moment. The blade was clear but the bolt hung below the guide. I've bought a pack of M10 grub screws, so everything will be flush I've just not got around to switching them out yet.

Im still not decided on the light weight head extension or a proper 2-3m log bed extension at the tail. Anything at the tail will have to be built properly as it'll have log on it.

This aircraft tacho is exactly what I need. Takes a spinning shaft into the back and has inbuilt fly weights that swing the needle, so I'll make something to attach that and that'll be my blade RPM tacho sorted.
Can you post a pic of the back of the tach? 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 30, 2019, 05:41:00 PM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191201_113848.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575153532)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191201_113851.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575153533)
 

The back just takes a threaded sheath with a square end spinning core by the looks. You think it might not be 1:1 ratio? Suppose it would be a lot to ask of a core in a flexible sheath to spin at 3500rpm all day long =/
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on November 30, 2019, 07:48:28 PM
if you can come across the same flex cable that is used on the acft, you might not have an issue with it running for hrs on end. how did you can across acquiring it? if you can, can you get the flex shaft from where you got the tach? if not, you might be able to search the acft sales sites and see if you can locate a used 1. 

tach cable (http://www.chiefaircraft.com/tach-cable.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAw4jvBRCJARIsAHYewPOhZNhGeZAYQAtJtBumFChtmA8nq3yIhDfj7KxQq8h1SJKiNE28D60aAj51EALw_wcB)
tach cable1 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/tachcables.php)

i even saw 1 on eBay for $60. 
from looking at the 1 on eBay, it looks to be like the same shaft that would go in a angle neck weed eater. even my stihl straight neck kombi weed eater has a similar flex shaft. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on November 30, 2019, 08:58:44 PM
I was thinking of using one of those Dremel tool flex shaft extensions. Cheap as chips and they go up to 30,000RPM =/.. I could machine an adapter and mount it to the end or from a brief look at a picture of a core replacement for that kit, it has the same square end it may even plug straight in. There will be no torque on it, the input shaft is light and silky.

So this is what I got with a drill and tach (upside-down in image) on the back of it. It is 2:1. Which actually, is perfect. I'll pluck the cover off the bezel and paint over the numbers at half their value (or maybe print a stencil and spray it...). That will put the entire band RPM range on the whole scale of the gauge, with best possible resolution. And, it only works in one direction... Which happens to be the correct one haha. Got really lucky with this!


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/2~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575165169)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/1~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575165169)
 

How's that for a bit of multi tasking  ;D.

I don't know the details but it was pulled up in an inspection and had to come out. I think I'd mentioned it in passing to the boss or one of the pilots and it made its way onto a shelf aside for me. Pretty darn lucky! Hate to think what they'd cost new, being aircraft parts.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 01, 2019, 02:10:41 AM
I took a few measurements of the gauges face plate and got to drawing something up on Photoshop. How cool is this  ;D.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191201_191632.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575183469)
 

I could see the hour meter was entirely mechanical and I was able to fiddle it back to zero, so it'll count total hours of band running, why not...

I only have a monochrome laser in the office but I'll get a nice one printed in town on something decent tomorrow.

I have got a question for the experts, if I was going to put a green arc on it, where would it start and end? If at full noise out of a cut its doing 1106RPM which is 5350FPM, it might as well end there to say the gov is over speeding, but where's an acceptable place to start for bogging/pushing too fast?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Jack S on December 01, 2019, 09:05:45 AM
How about old bicycle speedometer  or car speedometers cable assembly's from the old days  only gotta get back say into the 80,s    also farm tractor tach cables are still available.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on December 01, 2019, 01:36:15 PM
I have got a question for the experts, if I was going to put a green arc on it, where would it start and end? If at full noise out of a cut its doing 1106RPM which is 5350FPM, it might as well end there to say the gov is over speeding, but where's an acceptable place to start for bogging/pushing too fast?
 
What is your engine size and band size?  That will determine the sweet spot.  I would do a dual scale.  Larger numbers for the FPM of the blade (~4,000-4,500 preferred?) and a smaller set of numbers for engine RPM.  How are you going to drive this with the speedo cable?  My old 1967 Delmont 88 had a hollow front spindle that the speedo cable plugged into the grease cap for the bearings rather than the transmission.  A little funky but it worked!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 01, 2019, 02:09:04 PM
It's a 22hp vtwin, standard 34mm or 1-1/4" I guess, I don't even know the set on it. 1.3tpi that sound right?

I'm still on my first one and it's still singing, been pretty happy with it considering the price!

It doesn't bog much I haven't been able to bug the engine yet. Maybe I should leave that face plate on it for now and run it for a day, see where the green arc should lie with what feels right.

Im either going to need a giant cable and run an S with big radii, to get it back to where the pressure gauge is, or I can build a bracket that hangs the gauge right off the end of the band wheel shaft, and not use any cable, just a little mini PTO shaft if you like. Will bore and thread into the back of the band shaft and machine a square on the end of it, and make the bracket bolts sliding so I can align it properly.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on December 01, 2019, 02:27:46 PM
We use colored fine point paint pens on the outside of the bezel and glass. That way a its easier to scratch off and replace in the appropriate rpm range. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 02, 2019, 04:15:02 PM
Yeah that's how this one is done, not a bad idea. That so when the well paying lifting jobs that are a little too big come in, you can shift the green arc for the pilot?  ;D. I flew with a guy down south he always used to say "the only time I ever spend in the red arc is while I'm pulling through it!"

I got through the rest of the logs on my drive yesterday, glad to have the space back. I have decided a fold down extension at the head is the way to go. I tried a full length log and I've not much interest in doing it again. Don't want to lift the boards and the stack is still sitting in the rain because I can't do anything with it! Doesn't fit in my doors and too long to trolley. I'm prob going to cut it in half so I can add it to my other stacks...

Still nothing broken or amiss... That tensioning jack is spent though, I can't even get right through a cut without leaking down to no tension so it's gotta go. Not looking forward to redrilling a new one.
Tell me, do I get to be in the club with this one  :D...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/scratch.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575320173)
 

What causes this, is it just tension in the log or have I got some weird bed flexing or something going on? I think I was taking that cant about 1.5" above the pith


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_094938.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318862)
 

I had a big dirty native that I've been looking forward to getting around to, I ended up just doing thick live edge slabs and I think it was the right decision with how gnarly it is. It's a notoriously stable timber through drying so I hope it will behave and should yield some pretty furniture one day.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_125202.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318858)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_151658.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318845)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_151708.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318843)
 

I guess everyone has to try this with their new mill sooner or later, managed to pull off a 2mm slab from an 850mm/33" log, I don't think I can complain with that. Probably not the best log to try it with, with all the inclusions in it but from what I can tell it's even all the way through


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_130349.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318851)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191202_130525.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575318849)


Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on December 02, 2019, 04:52:05 PM
Blade tensioning, a good mechanical screw type set-up using a heavy spring for cushioning would be a good reliable and simple set-up.

Back stops, you need to design and install a blade guard that will contact your stops ahead of your blade and stop you from pushing your carriage any further until you lower your stops. Mine allows me 1/4" (6mm) clearance. Also mark your stops so you know the height you set them at.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on December 02, 2019, 05:04:48 PM
What causes this, is it just tension in the log or have I got some weird bed flexing or something going on? I think I was taking that cant about 1.5" above the pith


Looks like log stress being released.  Just a fact of logs, to one degree or another.  Some logs have none or very little, some have a lot.  Dealing with log stress being released while sawing is part of becoming a sawyer.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on December 02, 2019, 05:39:26 PM
First on your stops, yeah, if it cost you a blade, you are in, since there are photos, it must have happened. ;D

 On your spring board log, I too would go with stress. Did you cut this tree? If so, was it a leaner, I find this a lot. The lean stress comes out in the cut, and then more when drying, a LOT more. If you gt the log from somebody without know the history, I would still go with stress and in any event I would have "some kind of weird twist in the bed" way way down the list because we all watched you build that mill and know it is extremely unlikely. :)

I like your paper thin cut, it shows what the mill can do. I did one of those last year trying to hit a particular size and threw them on the burn pile. But then I re-thought and pulled them out and used a 2' long one for a sign over the mill shed thinking it would last a month or two and curl up. It's still there a year later and the other ones I had I put on the drying skid with some weight. hey dried nice and flat. Not sure what I will do with them yet, but I keep moving them around.

Man, I would love to get my hands on one of your dirty native slabs. Nice figure.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 02, 2019, 06:00:09 PM
Haha it didn't cost me a blade. I noticed it at the end of the day, not sure when it happened. I'll have to keep trying.
I've been meaning to add the back stop guard, just want to make sure I'm happy with where everything sits first.

The tree was felled before I got there, all in pieces. It might even be a branch actually, I don't know. I'll forget about that one.

They're quite pretty huh, I actually went to the effort of painting the ends, figured they'd be worth it. I can't seem to bring myself to paint the other hundred boards =/.

I might try one more jack, identical to that one. If it didn't leak it would be perfect, I do like it, it's nice to be able to read real time tension while pushing. Otherwise I'll turn some kind of threaded jack and spring like you say.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on December 02, 2019, 08:00:51 PM

I might try one more jack, identical to that one. If it didn't leak it would be perfect, I do like it, it's nice to be able to read real time tension while pushing. Otherwise I'll turn some kind of threaded jack and spring like you say.
several on here have said i should use hydraulic for tensioning. i would venture to agree, since it'll take around 2800 lbs of force to tighten my blade. iv got 18" of 1.5" acme rod left, and can buy 2 more nuts, weld 1 on the rod and the other to maybe 1"-1.5" of steel. just need to find a spring, regardless if i go hydraulic or acme. the closest i can find is a 2300 lb compression spring. 
as for hitting your stop, don't do that, it can mess up your blades. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 05, 2019, 05:21:04 PM
I bought a new jack, a 4T one this time figuring less pressure would be easier on things. I ended up having to make an adapter plate to get it to fit on the pad already made for the old one. Also snapped a drill bit inside the jack foot while tapping it for the hydraulic gauge. Also had to skim the edge off the top of the reservoir side to get it to clear the beam sleeve. All in all, the dread of swapping it out was well founded... And I'm thinking about trying it one last third time, with what I've learned.

The bottle jacks' cylinder, seats on a washer/seal in the cast iron foot, I think the best advice I could give anyone wanting to tap a jack for pressure would be keep your passage well away from this seat, I think that is why I'm having issues. The bottom of the cylinder is taper threaded into the cast iron foot but you could drive a bus down this thread while it's snugged up, without a perfect/clean washer it will leak. I had this idea that this seat was only to retain the balls in the check valve mechanisms - over simplifying it and not giving it enough thought. @charles mann (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41365) Going back for me I'd either be looking at a ram with a seperate pump so you didn't have to touch it (tap into hose for pressure) or stay right away from hydraulic tensioning... 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on December 05, 2019, 05:39:49 PM
Josh, if i go hyd, i would use a porta-power but having that bulky hand pump will make it just look gaudy. With the amount of tension ill require, hyd probably IS the best option, but i dont see the harm in trying the acme rod at first. I figure with that 1.5” rod, i should be able to manage 3000 lbs of pressure with not issues. If i cant find a spring, maybe an airbag or body mount may work. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 05, 2019, 07:28:02 PM
I was going to stick one of those small engine mount bobbins between the jack and sleeve if it needed it but it seems to go good without it. Have never seen the needle move during cutting. You probably need it even less with having more band and more frame to give, if needed.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on December 05, 2019, 07:59:52 PM
True. My carriage is very shaky. I noticed it the other day when i was manually lifting the sawbeam to max height. Granted i have NO cross bracing anywhere just yet. I will put some short (24”) on the front legs, parallel to the sawbeam to help support the legs for the sawhead linear rails, then do some 36” running from the same front legs, parallel to the mill bed and aft, then go from aft legs to the front, then again 36” tying the aft legs again parallel to the sawhead. In total, 8 cross brases. Hopefully that makes the carriage more rigid. 
After cranking on the motor today, trying to get it to run on its own, it shakes/rocks side to side like 10.0 earthquake. Not sure if i wanna keep and add at least 2 more rubber isolator mounts (bobbins for you josh) to help absorb some of the shake. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on December 06, 2019, 02:53:57 AM
Haha sounds like it's going to look like a jungle gym. I will say those two funny cross braces I did through all three planes each really stiffened the thing up, I don't get any shake while cutting whatsoever now, as opposed to quite a noticeable shimmying before they went in. Any bracing will make a huge difference of course. Not sure isolator mounts will help with wobble type movement? I don't know. Vibration and chatter maybe.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 01, 2020, 08:42:54 PM
Nothing like Christmas break to put a damper on progress of things! Happy new year etc everyone hope you've all managed somewhat of a break.

The next thing I want to do on this mill is a slab machining attachment. But I wondered if it'd be more smart to make a stand alone machine which would mean I'd have to build tracks and wheels etc again, or if I should use the carriage to support just a spoilboard spindle attachment... Anyone ever added anything like this?

Couple of projects I got tied up with leading up to the Christmas break. Some a bit crude and last minute, some I should have started a long time ago! Been good to get back into the woodshop. I'm really looking forward to using some of this timber when it finally dries!


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191225_135353.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1577929259)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191225_112438.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1577929267)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20191223_223756.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1577929301)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 02, 2020, 06:01:10 AM
Josh for the slab surfacer use the existing rails and make a router sled that rides on the rails. chances are it was cut on the mill once it can be put back on again. The existing clamps on the mill will hold it in place nicely.

That was my thought originally but I am not near electric so it kinda kills my idea. Really do not want a gas engine running it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Vautour on January 02, 2020, 05:09:59 PM
   I'm thinking of adding an edger on my mill that will flip down when needed .. why not use that power to edge a few boards till you squared off you logs!!!!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 02, 2020, 08:11:20 PM
I need to go work with someone else to learn the ins and outs of this sawmilling thing. Then I may be able to figure out how to do that.

I typically make a 3 sided cant so I have one square edge so I can run the boards through the table saw or have live edge if thats what I want.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 03, 2020, 03:28:18 AM
I usually cut square cants/slabs too, remove from mill then replace and cut my dimensional stuff out of it. Never needs to see an edger. But then again I'm not in a rush.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Greg9504 on January 03, 2020, 09:56:01 AM
Nice build.  One observation/question.  You are using a steel nut with your acme threaded rod for your raise/lower mechanism.  Are you not worried about galling between the nut and threaded rod?  Be a shame to ruin the rods after all that machining work. 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_180729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963105)

charles mann
Quote
i wish i could find a bronze flange nut that didn't cost an arm and 2 toes. i think mc master carr wants $232 per flange nut in 1.5-5
thank you for the inspiration
Have you looked at Roton?
https://www.roton.com/family/acme-right-screws-and-nuts-7061240/ (https://www.roton.com/family/acme-right-screws-and-nuts-7061240/)
$90 for bronze nut + $70 for steel flange.  Bit cheaper.  

FWIW I think the 1.5" acme screw is way overkill for raising and lowering the cutting head.  Bronze nut is rated at 11k lbs operating load.  You'll have two, that's 22k operating load.  While it wont save you much money you could go with plastic nut, your operating load will be reduced to 5.6k lbs each, but you run less risk of galling. If you are worried about using plastic, there is an automotive hoist made by a German company called Hofmann.  It uses a  plastic nut for lifts rated to 7k lbs (they do have a fail safe steel nut as well).  You could save a bit more by going with a 1" rod and still have plenty of load capacity, 10k lbs for two bronze nuts. Sorry rambling now.
To JoshNZ - maybe I missed it, but would like to see a video of the saw cutting! Looks awesome.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 03, 2020, 06:34:37 PM
@Greg9504 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6746)

I did look at roton, but there was no flanged bronze. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Greg9504 on January 03, 2020, 06:56:52 PM
@charles mann (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41365)
The nut with outer threads "Acme Threaded Mount Nut", screws into the steel flange they sell.  Both the nut and the flange are on the page I linked above.  I use one of their steel flanges with a plastic nut for another application.
Picture from another manufacturer but same principle:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16746/acmenutassembly.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1578100422)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 03, 2020, 08:35:31 PM
@Greg9504 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6746) 

Gotcha!! I didnt see a all in 1 flange, so i didnt look much further. I just went with a regular steel nut and built a capturing flange, but will modify it when its time tear it down for sand blasting and paint. I bought 2 2 3/8” sockets that i will cut the sq drive off of it and heavily tack weld the sockets to the flange plate. 

Not sure i have pics of it, will get some when i get back from canada at the end of the month, and post on my build thread. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Vautour on January 04, 2020, 03:18:20 PM
@charles mann... Is your trip to Canada work related??.. i live on the east coast and got 5" of snow a week ago and know the rest of Canada has had quite a bite of snow so far.. hope you brought you snow gear!!.. :D 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 04, 2020, 03:32:57 PM
@charles mann... Is your trip to Canada work related??.. i live on the east coast and got 5" of snow a week ago and know the rest of Canada has had quite a bite of snow so far.. hope you brought you snow gear!!.. :D
Yes sir, im 5 days into my first wk of a 3 wk schedule. Im on the east coast in port alberni. Im doing the same work iv been doing for the past 16 yrs, working on tandem rotor egg beaters. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on January 04, 2020, 11:43:11 PM
east coast in port alberni


still the west coast to us eastern Canadians ;) (east coast off the west coast)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 05, 2020, 01:51:18 AM
east coast in port alberni


still the west coast to us eastern Canadians ;) (east coast off the west coast)
You are correct sir. I typed what i was reading on his post. I meant west coast, but yes, eastern portion of the west cost. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 09, 2020, 06:21:29 PM
Nice build.  One observation/question.  You are using a steel nut with your acme threaded rod for your raise/lower mechanism.  Are you not worried about galling between the nut and threaded rod?  Be a shame to ruin the rods after all that machining work.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20190802_180729.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564963105)
...

To JoshNZ - maybe I missed it, but would like to see a video of the saw cutting! Looks awesome.
To answer both...

YouTube (https://youtu.be/hYE-HNAoC9M)

I haven't filmed a lot of my work yet and most of it has been bits and pieces anyway but here's some scraps.
I haven't seen it galling or binding or anything yet. It isn't exactly a precision fit, and I keep it greased. I could turn some brass or plastic nuts for it, I'll see how it goes. I have got a few HDPE blanks there, I hadn't considered it to be viable? I may completely redo the lead screws yet, they aren't quite dead straight or perfect. Certainly functional but not perfect.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 09, 2020, 07:50:48 PM
MIne used to spray sawdust like that. I decided to put a heavy flap of rubber on it to direct it down. At first I liked the spray pattern but when I thought about what might go flying I decided it was better to direct it down.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 10, 2020, 01:17:17 AM
Yeah you have mentioned that before. Not quite gotten round to it yet haha. Hasn't bothered me yet anyway I've got bigger problems to solve first!

This is sort of what I'm going for with my extension. Will give me a total cut of 4.8m or nearly 16ft, which I'm happy enough with.

I knew it was gonna be a pain in the ass using RHS the same size as the frame, I've got one side sticking up ~2mm for whatever reason it is. I wonder if I should cut it all apart and weld the side rails onto the cross members about 5mm lower, which will allow for some kind of shimming adjustment on the drawbar. Now that I'm sticking up proud there's not much I can do other than start whacking stuff.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200110_190942.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1578636893)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200110_191005.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1578636896)
 

I got some trunnions and sleeves made so it should be smooth sailing once I get it levelled and aligned
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 10, 2020, 01:41:55 AM
Josh, 
Is the metal of different height, even though its suppose to be the same dimension? If not, what bout bolting a 1/2” (12mm) tab on the bottom of the primary bed, which will prevent that side from coming up no further than the tab? You could even shim under the tab and the extension to bring that side down further if need be. I was wondering if i would run into the same issue once i ned to build extensions. Ill probably put some type of tabs inside my tube to bolt things to and still be able to shim if need be. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 10, 2020, 07:05:29 AM
My plan for extensions was just hinged flip out pieces. Have them hinged on the end of the tube / bed and rotate in and out. They only need to be strong enough to support the sawhead. At least in my case
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 10, 2020, 02:59:38 PM
The tube is the same dimension yes so any twist or bow or whatever in either, will show itself as sitting proud of the end of the bed.

I thought about swinging out rails but you'd still need to get them level with the bed and support them, the carriage must be 200kg I guess you wouldn't hang 100 on each hinge alone.

I think I'll just cut the tube rails and drop them down slightly on the cross members, then pad up to level with weld beads.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 10, 2020, 03:18:58 PM
Why wouldn't you? What size are your main rails? I will work on a quick design to show what I was planning on mine.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 10, 2020, 03:42:38 PM
ok, here is a quick dirty sketch of what I had in mind. Keep in mind that my bed is already 24' long. With the way I built my carriage it leaves me a max cut length of 20'-4.5". I need to be able to cut 23' for my shop project. So all I need to do is get the carriage off of the bed so I have that extra 4' I can cut.

Ignore the scale on the hinge. I oopsed when I drew it and the bed is not a direct copy of what I have.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/Annotation_2020-01-10_153908.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1578688678)
 

The top picture shows the extension in the full open position. I did not show any way of holding it open but you can get the idea.

The second picture shows it half closed position. Simple pin barrel hinge. More than strong enough to support the head.

The third image shows it in the full closed / stowed position.

Depending on the length of them they could just fold tip to tip on the ends of the trailer or overlap if you need that much more.

These extension arms are only intended to support the head. Not the log. They can be placed at both ends of the bed. If I were to do that I could gain 6-8' of bed length. And best thing would be fully stowable for towing down the road and no heavy frames to figure out how to move, setup and level.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Old Greenhorn on January 10, 2020, 04:11:17 PM
 So all I need to do is get the carriage off of the bed so I have that extra 4' I can cut.
@crusarius I am sure you've thought of this, but for others who read this (because it's a neat idea) I just wanted to mention that the extension needs to be pretty true to the bed because the beginning of the cut will see the head on the extension when the blade enters the cut the back of the head will still be on the extension, even a little, but this will influence the cut somewhat. This could generate a small giddy-up in the cut. I have been designing a similar gizmo in my head but for a 12' extension. Mine is ground mounted. now it is morphing into a dedicated edger track that will really hold the boards square. Anyway, thought I would mention it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 10, 2020, 04:37:46 PM
Good call old greenhorn. You are correct. Good news is you really only need to make sure it is true in 1 axis instead of 3.

The good news is if there is a tiny step at the rail joint, you will never see that in your cut.

step = not different height but two pieces coming together with a small radius on them.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 20, 2020, 04:33:52 AM
Well the extension all came together pretty good. I've only been doing a bit here and there, been fishing 4 days this week so it is tough this time of year =[]!

Simple but a bit time consuming, trunnions welded in the frame, sleeves welded in arms which are sandwiched flat bar, and they have slots cut in them to allow for adjustment. The arms slide over a greased plate/packer with a tapered top so the extension centers every time. With the engine off i can hear a faint click as it crosses the joint, with the engine running and my eyes closed I couldn't tell you when it crossed, by feel or sound, so I'm pretty happy with it. I ended up clamping the cross beams to the drawbar and then running a string line along the bed rails, and extending that line out and welding the extension rail in place.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200114_145746.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511580)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_103252.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511568)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_103314.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511567)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_103131.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511579)
  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_103224.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511575)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_103216.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579511574)
 

Im yet to add an arm to secure it folded up like that, and I can now cut and mount bunks to the last two cross members.

I think a jockey wheel is probably sensible now as well with that extra weight extending over the drawbar.

Next job though will be fitting this! Ive had a gutsful of the leaky floor jack so I splashed and bought this 10T ram, and porta pump. Brutey overkill but I figure running it at lower pressure should be better on everything. Will be a shame to cut a brand new ram up but I have to shorten it before it goes in. Not sure whether I will part the base off the reweld it, or part the top off and rethread it. Anyone have any experience modifying cylinders?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200120_080713.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579512403)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 20, 2020, 06:18:05 AM
That looks great. I never though of doing the hinge like that. Great idea. 

do you really have to modify the cylinder? Can you just offset it and make a leg for it to push like the low profile heavy lifting jacks?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Hoopty5.0 on January 20, 2020, 11:45:59 AM
I really like that extension. Really creative!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 20, 2020, 01:53:15 PM
The only direction I could offset it would be down into the log throat. I could cut the foot off the saw beam and put it out further but once again this is encroaching on log capacity and I don't think it'd be that easy of a job either. Would have to remove the beam I'd say.

I don't think it's that big of a deal to reweld cylinder base anyway
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 20, 2020, 02:00:13 PM
no. just nice to not have to. make sure you keep the seal end cool.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 20, 2020, 02:38:37 PM
The only direction I could offset it would be down into the log throat. I could cut the foot off the saw beam and put it out further but once again this is encroaching on log capacity and I don't think it'd be that easy of a job either. Would have to remove the beam I'd say.

I don't think it's that big of a deal to reweld cylinder base anyway
What is this cylinder for/going to do?  Can you clamp it in place and post a picture of what you are thinking?  Maybe the collective brain-trust here can come up with a different solution to reworking the cylinder.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 20, 2020, 03:17:51 PM
I'm swapping it out for the orange jack in this picture. Tensions the blade by pushing the sleeve off the end of the beam.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200121_091228.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579551362)
 

This is the constraint for the cylinder length. I do think reworking the cylinder will be easier than reworking the footing on the beam.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200121_091235.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579551362)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 20, 2020, 03:38:23 PM
you have more than enough space on top of the beam. Why not just put it up there. Looks to me like you have 1 bracket to cut off and move then make a new one for the other side. Give you more space underneath to.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 20, 2020, 03:51:23 PM
I agree with crusarius, on top, or at the back. I havent gotten that far and still havent ruled out using threaded rod instead of a porta power and ram. But on top would be the next best choice to keep out of the way of cut throat
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 20, 2020, 03:57:11 PM
With the force from the band tension already torquing the sleeve clockwise off of the end of the beam (as you look at it in that photo) I worry adding more force to this torque coupling will cause major binding issues. I figured the best place to put the tensioning force was as close to the opposing force as possible hence why it went underneath, directly in line with the wheel axle.

This cylinder is going to be a piece of cake to rework, I'll just cut the top of the cylinder off and rethread the internal section,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200121_095631.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579553762)
 

The only problem being the spring return... Are these put in place before the cylinder is welded closed or is there a way to disconnect them for resealing? Surely...
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 20, 2020, 04:05:15 PM
Nevermind, should have twisted it a few more times before giving up its just a threaded rod.

I don't see a big problem here, that top threaded plug isn't even a seal, just a loose fit collar.

So if I part off enough cylinder then rethread for that collar, then lop off the excess rod I should be good to go


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200121_100513.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579554272)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 20, 2020, 04:46:16 PM
jUST keep in mind now you have a custom cylinder. If it fails you cannot just grab one from the local hydraulic shop. You will be stuck till you remachine a new one.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 20, 2020, 04:56:22 PM
I see it now (said the blind man to the deaf mute...) 

To me, cutting and re-threading would be a no-go, even though I have a lathe.  I'm not that skilled.  Cutting and re-welding the bracket - yes. 

I agree to put it in the same location as the old orange one.  You are worried about your throat depth of cut - I don't think you need to be.  I set up mine do do about a 20" depth. ::)  On a very wide log, the most I've done is 4".  On something around 16-20", I've done 7".  The big 8x12 posts and beams are what's left after you remove the side wood.  I didn't understand that when I designed my mill.  I've since added a support between the hubs and reduced my clearance to 9-10".  I only bumped it once trying to cut a bunch of 2x without removing the stack.  Pretending I'm a professional using a WM!  Redoing the mount and hanging the full cylinder would not be a problem for clearance, IMO.

However, shortening the rod would be a more elegant and lighter weight solution.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on January 20, 2020, 07:42:25 PM
Is there not a very short ram available?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 21, 2020, 08:00:07 AM
Josh, 
Could you not mount it on back side of the beam, and low? It would not eliminate as much anti-tq as where you want to put it, but it’d still limit some of it. I mean, its your build, but taking an off the shelf item, heavily modding it now makes that a custom piece and a drastic bit of down town to mod the next 1, if the custom 1 fails for whatever reason. Granted i have seen any of those rams fail, but im positive some have failed. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Vautour on January 21, 2020, 11:51:29 AM
If you look at some of the big manufacturers all they did was use the ram with gauge and have a threaded rod that pushes against the ram (no need of the pump) my build is the same as yours and the ram will be attached to the main beam and the threaded rod (acme tread) will be attached on the "sliding out" part. turning the acme rod will push against the ram to the desired PSI... simple solution with less clutter.     
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 23, 2020, 05:07:08 PM
I've had the modified cylinder holding up the back of the forklift for 12hrs now, no leaks through the welds or seals. I maxed out the lift until the handle just barely went hard then figured I'd know how much leaked past the seals in the morning by how much the handle swung before it went hard again, but it was still hard, so that is good news.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200123_215919.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815448)
 

Obviously went a different way from what I was describing but achieved the same result. I've taken quite a bit off the butt of the cylinder because it's a waste, and then parted out a section of the cylinder and rewelded.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200122_155553.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815599)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200123_143843.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815599)
 

One thing I didn't consider was that the spear itself would be hollow. I parted the excess off the lathe and found myself staring down the bore right through the centre of the seal =/.

So I pulled all the seals made a cap for the shaft, switched to Tig to reduce spatter and sealed it up. If I was going to do this all again I'd Tig the whole lot, and I'd use a rotary positioner. I toyed with making one out of the old RA anchor winch driven with a drill, I might still yet. But I got impatient.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200123_212939.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815859)
 

Vautour that is an awesome idea. Id prob have done that if I thought of it haha although I don't trust ram seals to seal 100% forever, seen too many weeping rams. You would still need to own a pump though it wouldn't need to live on the mill?

To the ram modding comments, there is a 10mm stroke ram available for about $100, not enough stroke for stretched bands. A 50mm stroke one for nearly $300, which would work but was getting expensive. This one was about $100, online (there is no hydraulic shop that sells rams off the shelf in these parts). I've scoured the internet for other options, this is where I arrived. It was more work than I thought but still much less than a complete teardown and re setup of the carriage to rework the beam. I only want to do that one more time, when I paint it. Of course I could go to the city and ask a hydraulic shop to make what I need but they'd charge me a limb and essentially I'd end up with something like what I've got here.

Honestly I think if this ram fails ill be finished with hydraulic tensioning anyway. I did see a hydraulic pump come up really cheap (nz$30!) I thought a cool way to do this would be to run a pressure regulator between the ram and the pump so it self regulates tension. Then have hydraulic capability too but decided to leave it.

So this ram has a big mortise in the bottom of it (ugly off-centre chattered twist drill Chinese job), I'll weld a tenon on the foot on my mill then it can sit right on there, I might grub screw the base of the ram so it stays put.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 24, 2020, 02:40:50 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_151453.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850820)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_151740.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850883)


It's a heap easier to deal with than the floor jack, a bit more elegant. I have installed the pump on top, it's nice to have a permanent handle and valve.
I'm hoping I'll be able to get a T connector to put between the hose and cylinder for the gauge to go on, and will do away with the bracket.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_160858.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850875)
 

I'll probably get that hose shortened and maybe clip it somewhere away from the engine pulley.

Also got my last bunks on. I just need an arm to secure that extension for travel and then I can put it back to work and try things out.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_201427.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850868)


@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059) I don't envy your 24ft bed or whatever it is, I don't imagine moving full length cants on this bed alone will be much fun!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 24, 2020, 06:31:12 AM
:) I know that the 12' logs I have to manually move is definitely a handful. I have found myself using the tractor bucket and chain more often. Definitely makes rolling them easier but challenging to get just right. I need to add a log turner.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on January 24, 2020, 08:05:22 AM
I did actually think about loading 2 logs at a time and cutting them together. But then I found that to be to labor intensive trying to keep my cuts straight.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 24, 2020, 11:10:09 PM
I'm pretty lucky to have the use of a forklift. Not an ideal tool but sure better than nothing.

I've been looking at this lift motor again, i have a 500W 12V motor that spins about twice the speed, I'd need a ~25:1 reduction to use it. I've come up short on my search for anything reasonably priced, don't suppose anyone knows of something that might work?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Vautour on January 25, 2020, 02:32:57 PM
@ JoshNZ are you talking about raising and lowering your head assembly??... my father has a WM lt15 and added a 4wheeler winch motor to raise it but it's very slow.. and when i told him i was building a sawmill .. first thing he said was make sure you make it go up and down fast..so i did.. i'm about 6 sec. per foot now with electric and eventually add hydraulic lift and double that speed. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 28, 2020, 09:58:27 PM
Yep that's what I'm talking about. That sounds awfully quick! My screws turn at ~180RPM and they are 3mm pitch. Gives 540mm/min and that is pretty good for working cuts, just not so good after finishing a log and resetting. Seems like it'd be hard hitting your mark at 1ft/6sec which is what 3m/min nearly 6x the speed of mine.

That sounds like it's hurtling =[]. What's everyone else's raise/lower speed? I have a 500w 12v motor here that does about 6000RPM with no load I think. Say 5000 under load. And I have a 16T pinion and a 78T spur gear to match which would give about what you have, 3m/min. A bit less if it loaded more.

Is that really the speed commercially available machines work at? The other thing I was wondering about is doing away with a spur gear and running a timing belt around timing pulleys instead. To smooth/quieten it down. Would they handle the torque?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on January 28, 2020, 11:39:39 PM
.. i'm about 6 sec. per foot now with electric
I have a manual crank that goes 1" per revolution and I figure I'm crankin' about that speed. Not bad for manual as I see videos of some sawyers cranking about 4X per inch of travel on their manual mills ... WoW!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on January 29, 2020, 02:14:29 AM
Bit different when you can slow down winding as you come up on your target. Id like to try it now! If it's functional I'd be super glad to be able to use the hardware I have already
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Jack S on January 29, 2020, 07:03:11 PM
just  add a dc speed controller. I recently bought one good for 12-24-36 volts and 60 amps full load for less than $20 free shipping.  forward reverse and center off, and a potentiometer for speed control, digital readout showing 0- 100 percent. I just installed it to run a geared mobilty cart motor that I installed on my Lm 29 norwood  mill to run the carriage. so far the speeds are ok but the true test will be when I put a log on the mill.
I also used a harbor freight 12 volt winch to power the head up and down and it works very well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35110/norwood_winch_addition~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1580342441)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35110/sawmill_winch~3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1580342441)
  
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on January 29, 2020, 08:02:39 PM
just  add a dc speed controller. I recently bought one good for 12-24-36 volts and 60 amps full load for less than $20 free shipping.  forward reverse and center off, and a potentiometer for speed control, digital readout showing 0- 100 percent. I just installed it to run a geared mobilty cart motor that I installed on my Lm 29 norwood  mill to run the carriage. so far the speeds are ok but the true test will be when I put a log on the mill.
I also used a harbor freight 12 volt winch to power the head up and down and it works very well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35110/norwood_winch_addition~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1580342441)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35110/sawmill_winch~3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1580342441)
  
Can you put up the links to the speed controller? Iv been looking for 1 that is good for fwd/rev and when id ask the question of if it can be used in a fwd/rev setup, i got an answer of, im not sure, we dont have that info. 
I took am thinking of a winch. Its way over kill, but iv got a 12k hf winch that i burned the brake up when i operated in line in mode bc my cable got rat nested and i didnt want to uncouple my tck and drag the cable out. I learned afterwards, that continuous line out under a heavy load will in fact burn the brake out. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Jack S on January 29, 2020, 09:26:12 PM
EBAY LINKS NOT ALLOWED 

they are also on amazon.   the only downside that I can see is it is recommended that you also do a dead start which means always return the pot back to zero before  activating the forward or reverse I"ve been playing around with old treadmill motors and speed controllers also. they have to be dead start also. we can't easily use them on our mills tho as they are all 110 volt in then converted to 0-90 volts dcto themotor. I have one on my wood lathe and it works really well. Just bought another one today $5
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Jack S on January 30, 2020, 09:30:10 AM
will never happen again  sorry
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on February 05, 2020, 08:10:23 PM
@JoshNZ (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37173) 
Hows the build coming? Out of the 2.5 wks home, waited 2 wks for some machining and still waiting. Hopefully my 5” backside idler pulley will be finished in the next 3 wks while im at work. Took 5 days to get the output shaft milled for 2 key ways. Im so close to being able to put a belt on it, i can taste it. But gotta have the idler pulley first and build the bracketry for it, then i can figure out how long of a belt i need. Initially, i needed a 150” 3/5v, but now, im thinking 160”+. 
I was productive at least on another mill helper and wood gatherer. Will post a vid when i get back to the states. It’ll make lite work for lifting/loading and yarding 3000-7000 lb logs. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 08, 2020, 07:33:50 AM
Is this an attachment for your tractor?

You really need to get a lathe and mill in your shop huh!

Not a great deal going on in my workshop, been away on holiday a week. I did get the little stand for the extension done, it lays on the beam that makes the draw bar when not in use from memory. Then props the extension with a 1/4" gap or so before the tracks collide. Sits on a little ledge on the post then secured with same 20mm bolt as carriage lockers.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200201_163351.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581163711)
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200201_163400.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581163714)
 

It's actually been great for working on the top of the carriage. Good solid place to stand.

I started messing with this other motor and gears today. I turned an adapter for the pinion, bored out the gear and welded in a new hub and turned to size. I think I buggered my vice pressing the pinion this time, I really should get a press. I had to re-machine the faceplate and cut the old bracket off so there's no going back now. If the math is right the carriage is going to haul butt. I've spent way too long scouring the internet for the right fit, I'm just gonna try this and go from there.
That winch has spent hours groaning away trying to pull our boat to the bottom of the ocean, I'm sure it's up to it regardless.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200208_131307.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581164570)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200208_153547.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581164569)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200208_161247.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581164563)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200208_162800.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581164563)
.

One photo there shows the old gear, the new setup will be much heavier duty anyway.

Getting a bit beyond a mill build and repetitive now =[]. This is something on it I'd like to get right
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on February 08, 2020, 09:43:26 AM
Looking good. how did you build the hinge bar that looks like 2 pieces of flat plate with a spacer in the center? How bout a closer pic?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on February 08, 2020, 12:45:27 PM
Nah, no tractor attachment, just another type of tractor. I get hm in early mar and ill post a vid. Iv gotta move my logs anyways, get the set up on some RR cross ties, then do some clean up and bring in a couple loads of rock and asphalt millings for a base where im going to initially set up the mill.


And yes, a mill and lathe is becoming a must, or find another machine shop. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 09, 2020, 12:31:04 AM
Looking good. how did you build the hinge bar that looks like 2 pieces of flat plate with a spacer in the center? How bout a closer pic?
Exactly as you said, nothing special about it. I thought the 12mm I had was thicker than necessary so decided to buy some 5mm flat. Decided that wasn't thick enough once I had it and that's where I ended up hah. A sandwich of 5mm bar with beads along each spacer. There's slots in the extension end to allow the tracks to square up and close the gaps (hidden under washers in that photo), and I welded a sleeve in the pivot end then machined it flat, which slides over the trunnion which has a threaded hole. Just a bolt to retain it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200209_131327.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581225040)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200209_131258.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581225037)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200209_131320.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581225037)


The trunnion has a shoulder holding the arm 5mm off the mills side, and there's a 5mm doubler welded to the extension which gave extra meat for thread. Then there is a bevelled doubler at the end of the mill frame which I have greased (you can see it in the top left of last photo there), and the arms slide over them and centre everything really snugly. The extra rigid sandwich arms actually ended up being really good for this. I'm pretty happy with it.

I got the motor bracket made and installed today. I'll leave it tacked this time in case I want to change it. I'll put a video below, what do you guys think? It's definitely honking... I seem to be able to hit marks alright though, and it's not too difficult to jog 1mm at a time.
It comes down at 3320mm/min and up at 2240mm/min. 131"/min down and 88"/min up. 1foot in 5.5sec coming down, to compare it to vautours. Certainly going to make resetting easier.

Lift - YouTube (https://youtu.be/g7_7TvBCNS0)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on February 10, 2020, 04:57:34 PM
perfect solution. thanx for the added info. I may have to do something similar for my extensions but I still like the idea of hinging them from the corners of the bed to fold in. all I want them for is to support the head so they do not need to be that strong,
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 10, 2020, 05:32:48 PM
Well 200kg of head with its CoG a meter off the end of the hinge is 980Nm or 720ft.lbs on each hinge so don't go too light =[]. I don't think you'd get away without supporting it at the other end which will mean it has to be adjustable for unlevel ground etc. I like the foldaway idea too more elegant in terms of packing down but I'd rather slam it open and be done with it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on February 11, 2020, 06:36:30 AM
yea, my head is only about 160 pounds 75 kg. Mine will not need to be nearly as strong.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 16, 2020, 09:48:01 PM
I finally got around to putting a jockey wheel on the front. I picked it up for $80, and thought it would help with a bit of extra stabilising and setup/pack up.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200215_170952.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581907309)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200215_171041.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581907309)
 

I've decided to install lights permanently on the rear of the bed too. I'm pretty sure this is as long as I want it, and after designing the extension at the front I can see this wouldn't make an extension on the rear impossible either. I definitely went the long way around for the light guards, that is a strip of the 50mm flat bar split down the middle then wrapped into a square. It's all I had...


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200217_144357.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1581907311)
 

I'm going to tap the tension cylinder and put the gauge right on it. I looked around for a T connector and they wanted $50 for it so it just seemed stupid. I'm going to bail on the RPM gauge idea, for now at least. I have a job for it later in the week, if all goes well, I'll get it back to the shed and start tearing it down for its cleanup and paint job. I really am dreading it haha. Really considering sending it away for galv or even paying to have it blasted and primed.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: frazman on February 17, 2020, 05:43:04 AM
I've been following your thread on the build. I've worked in metal fabrication for 35 years and find you have done an excellent job. After all that nice work on the frame , prepping the metal for painting would be a must. Do you have the option on having it powder coated ? Having it plated might be a challenge and would require alot of drain holes. Again, excellent work.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on February 17, 2020, 08:19:57 AM
Really considering sending it away for galv or even paying to have it blasted and primed.


Wish I had done that, but I knew I wasn't done tinkering with it. Nothing is ever done :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 18, 2020, 05:46:00 AM
I could have it powder coated or galved but like crusarius said, who knows what else will need to be done to it, or repaired... I'll do the prep and get it painted. Thanks for the encouragement.

The list of little things to finish seems to be never ending I think I've been at it 2 days now.

I ended up finding a tee fitting for the gauge so went that way. I had to machine a dowel and press it into the tee for the pumps check valve spring, would be an easy trap to miss that in case anyone uses the same system.
I charged it to 800psi at night and it was 500psi in the morning. I scoured the thing for drops of oil including removing the shaft guide and dipping the seal with paper, dry as a bone so don't know where my 300psi went. Maybe the blade stretches or things just creep into place.

Will get a couple of logs sawn then hopefully a pic up of a new coat of paint next week xD.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200217_171224.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582022667)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200217_180314.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582022667)
 

Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 27, 2020, 07:14:42 PM
This is the last item on my list before I tear it down. Everything else is finished  8).

Do I need track wipers...?
And..
Do I paint the track or mask it and leave it oiled or something.

What have the commercial and homebuild guys done?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200228_130736.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582848839)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: trimguy on February 27, 2020, 07:47:11 PM
I have the same track set up as you. I painted mine. It will wear off after some use. Yes on the track wipers. I didn’t realize it would be an issue when I built mine, but the saw dust will get on the angle and the wheel will pack it when it rolls over it. I would like to see some pictures of some wipers that other people have. For now I try to keep it brushed off. It gets old. I need to bring it home so I can do a couple of things to it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 27, 2020, 08:42:24 PM
You could just take a piece of heavy flexible plastic, like from a plastic barrel, mount it so it rubs on the rail.  It will eventually wear a groove to conform to the rail.  Maybe use a wing nut and a slot in the plastic so you can lower it as it wears?

I didn't on mine and I noticed a bump - bump - bump one day.  I had a small hole already so I stuck a nail through it so that it rubbed in the wheel groove.  ::)  It worked!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on February 27, 2020, 11:53:57 PM
This is what I've done. I wanted to close off the end of that tube so that a bumper on the end of the track can contact it. So if I'm ever day dreaming I don't run my saw off the end of the bed lol.
And I knew I'd curse myself for permanently closing if I ever have to replace those wheels because there's packers each side of them and they won't fit through the slot in the bottom.

Tolerance is pretty good along the whole track. I thought it'd be easy enough to add a piece of plastic/rubber/brushes, but might just see how that goes.

Definitely paint the track? Does it not get crumbly or ball up etc


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200228_171928.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582865348)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200228_172206.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582865353)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 28, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
Nice! 
I'd still put a small piece of the UHMW-like plastic attach at the bottom edge just rubbing the tip of the track - maybe the top ¼".  Every little bit of sawdust that is balanced on top will get stuck in/to your wheel.  I don't think it makes much difference in your cut, but its just annoying that it goes bump-bump-bump down the track.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on February 28, 2020, 10:09:18 AM
paint the rails. it will wear off. I used a piece of 1/8" aluminum plate I formed to cover the wheel and it sits on the track with gravity. kinda annoying with the rattle but it scrapes the full rail and I have had no buildup. it has a screw through the front of it that is loose so it can float. I may have pics in my gallery. I can get some when I get home.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on March 26, 2020, 02:51:46 AM
Well it looks like my progress has gone a long way backwards, but it is necessary =[].


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200326_192418.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1585204137)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200326_192428.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1585204138)
 

What can you use to cleanup enamel paint/primer in a paint gun other than thinner? And what can you use instead of acetone to clean bare steel? NZ is in full lockdown for 4 weeks and I'm going to run out of both before I finish.

I took a bunch of small parts around to the electroplaters last week, looks pretty neat I'll get a photo later.

I may not get time anyway, we are in the middle of kiwifruit harvest and have been deemed an essential service so for now I'm still busy as all heck. Crazy times here. Hope you are all well.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on March 26, 2020, 08:40:29 AM
They make a special cleaning solvent that's much better than acetone.  The problem with acetone is it evaporates too fast, but in a pinch I'd use it to clean metal.  Maybe mix it with some thinner to slow it down?

The product I use for cleaning is called Prep-Sol.  It's made for the purpose.  It goes by many trade names though, so you'll have to ask your paint shop.  Available at any commercial paint store, and some retail paint store.  Ask your supplier.

I don't have any suggestion about cleaning the gun.  I hate cleaning the guns, that's what I know about that.  I usually use whatever is recommended for the paint I'm spraying.  Sometimes that's mineral spirits, sometimes Naptha, it all depends.  By the way - I hate cleaning the guns - but there's no getting around it.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on March 26, 2020, 01:41:09 PM
I have quickly learned I hate cleaning guns as well. There's no simple way to just mix up a bit of paint and prime the odd part is there. No easy way to pour paint either why do they still make it in tins. I understand it's for the paint mixers but seriously. I've had the most luck with ladeling it out. A V on the top made from masking tape works pretty well too but let's the channel fill with paint. And no I can't go out and buy a spout right now haha.

A paint shop is definitely not an essential service so they're shut. Were not allowed to be outside right now. I more meant what might I have i.e. soapy water or petrol hah... I doubt either are better than nothing?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on March 26, 2020, 02:00:56 PM
Soapy water can leave a residue if you don’t rinses thoroughly. My normal routine is:

Spray down with Simple Green
Scrub with a clean brush
Hose off thoroughly 
Blow dry with compressed air
Let stand in the sun for a bit
Wipe down with prep-sol
Acid etch
Prime

That’s for stuff I really want to have excellent long term adhesion. 

I cut out a lot of those steps if it’s something I’m not trying to be perfect with. 

How about sending some of it out for powder coating?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: ljohnsaw on March 26, 2020, 02:46:23 PM
A V on the top made from masking tape works pretty well too but let's the channel fill with paint. And no I can't go out and buy a spout right now haha.
I have a couple plastic things laying around.  They are a lip that snaps onto the inside ridge of a gallon paint can, though might work on a quart.  About 1.5" wide.  Works for a place to wipe a brush or just to pour out and keeps it out of the groove and no drips down the side of the can.  For a while (house) paint was being produced in a gallon jug that they didn't work on (or really need), so they got tucked away.  Lately, the gallon cans are made of plastic with a top metal ring with the old style lids.  Next time I'm painting, I'll have to find those plastic thingys, wherever they are...
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on March 27, 2020, 05:01:30 AM
Lol I must not have explained the lockdown properly but the powder coaters are definitely not open xD... All of NZ is a ghost town right now. Empty streets, closed shops.

I'm looking for home remedies to keep me entertained for the next 4 weeks before I run out haha.
I might be able to source some from neighbours or something.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on March 27, 2020, 07:21:19 AM
I'm with you on the paint cans and the mess.  Being an amateur and an occasional painter, I struggle with all that.  I'm lucky to have a neighbor/friend who does it for a living and a pro paint outlet that gives me a lot of help on materials choices.  But it's always an adventure.  

Hopefully you have enough materials on hand to complete your paint job, since you're on lock down.  Sounds like a good time to get it done even though you have to make do with the what you have.  Hopefully you've got a good enamel and hardener for your finish coat.  I have no doubt you'll end up with a first class job.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on April 10, 2020, 03:02:26 AM
Happy Easter everyone!

Got a couple of days away from the orchard this week, I told my partner I was going for it on Thursday, prep + prime + paint by that afternoon I told her haha. I got done wire brushing everything down by about 7pm that evening and just got done with the primer about 6.30 this evening. Weren't completely free days I did have work things come up and prob a bit tardy with my mornings being days off xD.

Good one to have under the belt anyway. I managed to get through this session without needing to completely dissemble and clean my gun. Caught on to a pretty tidy routine.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200410_182436.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1586502000)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on April 10, 2020, 08:19:03 AM
Nice.  I was wondering if you got some paint on the mill.  Now you can get back to making sawdust.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on April 10, 2020, 09:11:26 AM
awwww man. I think you built it upside down! :)

I know getting paint on mine was a big step. Looks good.

I am still willing to bet your going to hate having that long fixed tongue in the way all the time.

Wait. NM I forgot you have hinged bed section
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on April 10, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
Yup there's only about 10" of tow hitch sticking out.

I'm a wee way off making sawdust yet, still got the carriage to do and truckloads of little parts it seems. I've got enough primed now that I can have a good session on top coat next fine day
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on April 10, 2020, 10:13:12 PM
the best cleaning method for a paint gun is to not use 1.  ;D just kidding. looks good. 

when i was painting my mill bed, i mixed the first cup, and about a half a cup, o had the wife start mixing up the next cup. for the 3 coats i put on it, it took 1.5 gal, way more than i thought it would. i also painted just before the sun started setting and let the paint have 8 hrs of cure time, then came back that morning, scuffed it up with 220 on an orbital sander on low, then found something else to do for the rest of the day till just before dark. took me 3 days to get it painted. but it took 2 months for the tractor enamel paint to cook off and harden.

 i figured 2 days and i could clamp things off before heading back on shift for 2 wks. boy was i wrong. even after 2 wks at work, the paint was still weak. i was careful as mush as possible, but gotta go back and touch a few spots up, but i'll mask it off, sand it down, repaint and bled my edges, if i decide to as far as blending. 
im guessing the color additive i used to darken the paint closer to cummins tan might have slowed the curing process. i don't know, but i'll be using kubota orange for the sawhead and carriage. i really want to paint the engine too, but i have to order 3 gal of paint from cummins, at $45 a gal, just for them to ship it to the cummins place. they won't even ship it to my house, and i still have pay for shipping, then drive commiefornia aka: austin, tx, to get stuff. so i may find another appealing color, and paint it that, but dang i want a fresh cummins tan on the lil cummins. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on April 11, 2020, 03:57:18 AM
On that note of painting engines.. do you think I should paint the exhaust headers or do you just leave them as the typical purple scolded mild steel look
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on May 04, 2020, 03:05:57 AM
 Looks like we're going to have a couple of weeks off between the harvest varieties so I'm hoping to get a bunch of this painting knocked off. 

Turns out I'm not a natural painter. Looks ok in the photo I guess but lots of stripes and powdery finish areas. Pretty tricky to get right with such complex geometries and small faces, I've found.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200504_181649.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588575902)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on May 04, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Looks good, Josh.

I think a "natural" painter is the result of a lot of experience.  Every time I paint something I learn that there's a lot of distance between me and a real painter.  But getting it protected is the real goal, and if looks good from 25 feet, it's a good job.

That thing would be quite a challenge to paint for me.  Maybe with a rotisserie  I'd stand a chance, but still a challenge.

Did you flip it over to spray the bottom or just deal with it?  

Looks good in the picture, which is what matters!!
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on May 04, 2020, 08:06:32 PM
I sat it up on its side with axle stands and painted half way across the bunks, then flipped it and did the same back the other way.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200424_173130.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588636986)
 

Does mean it has to be touch dry before I can handle it ~20min with this paint also means no wet edge to continue off.

I get a do over anyway. I needed more paint than I realised and the paint shop had run out of the enamel I was using and talked me into buying enough 2 pot to start again, so I'll key it all and go over with 2 pot. I think I do need the harder wearing stuff, the enamel wasn't going to cut it.

Thanks for the comments all the same =)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: btulloh on May 04, 2020, 09:53:41 PM
Good plan.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: frazman on May 05, 2020, 06:17:36 AM
Have you thought of painting the underside with a undercoat or rock guard 
of some sort being it will be towed around ?
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: VooDooChikin04 on May 05, 2020, 08:39:41 AM
I can attest to frazmans thought!  My last dune buggy I built,  was undercoated with hercules roll on truck bed liner as well as all the suspension components. Still holding strong after 6+ years of abuse.  

I have a strong suspicion you won't be doing much offroading with your mill, but who knows ;) 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on May 05, 2020, 01:45:28 PM
No need to undercoat. You have to be careful with the type of undercoat you use. Some types that dry like a paint eventually start to lose adhesion and allows moisture to be contained and the metal will corrode very fast afterwards and hidden from view until it starts to fall apart.

Once or twice a year, just take a wire brush in one hand and a spray can in the other and do touch ups. Step back a few feet and it looks great. :)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: VooDooChikin04 on May 05, 2020, 01:48:38 PM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809)  dude good point!  Some undercoating is solevant dissolved plastics which then form a plastic coating. I could totally see loosing adhesion and water collecting.  Awesome! 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: RAYAR on May 05, 2020, 02:21:40 PM
@RAYAR (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40809)  dude good point!  Some undercoating is solevant dissolved plastics which then form a plastic coating. I could totally see loosing adhesion and water collecting.  Awesome!
I looked at a van one time that was undercoated with a brand name undercoating that was all pealing off and there was nothing left of the frame. I don't think this company is around anymore as I haven't seen any advertising from them in a long time. They had a yellow shield for an emblem and their name started with 'Z' ;)
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on May 05, 2020, 02:30:10 PM
they are still around.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: frazman on May 05, 2020, 09:33:56 PM
As I mentioned, just a thought but one has to do some homework.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on May 06, 2020, 04:48:28 AM
I'm not too worried about the underside of it anyway, the odd chip won't worry it too much and it'll need the odd tidy up as mentioned.

I got it all scuffed and the 2 pot on it today. Way nicer to spray and already looks richer and thicker. Glad I bit the bullet. I was worrying I didn't have enough paint but actually when you have 20% catalyst then 20% of that in thinner, you have a lot more product than what's in the can!

Nasty stuff though. I bought a respirator and could still feel my heart racing by the end. Do pro painters use activated carbon or so you need to get your air from somewhere away from spray site 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on May 07, 2020, 01:37:58 AM
Well the 2 pot coat is hands down an improvement. Day 1 of a (up to) 7 day cure and it's already harder than the enamel. Heaps better surface finish.

I'm brushing down everything else now. Awfully painful this phase of a build =/.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200507_153958.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588829840)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200507_154019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1588829840)
 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: Crusarius on May 07, 2020, 06:27:11 AM
Painting is always the worst part!!!!

But in the end its worth it to make it look good.
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: charles mann on May 07, 2020, 06:00:54 PM
It took about 2wks for my enamel to dry hard. Im guessing to much moister in the air or their mixing chart is wrong. I mixed well and let sit for a few min before each batch i sprayed and i used 1 measuring cup for paint, 1 for catalyst and 1 for the first batch with thinner. The sec 2 coats i used paint/cat only and sanded each coat with 220 grit. 
But now that stuff is like a dillar shell. 
Title: Re: Another build thread... JoshNZ
Post by: JoshNZ on May 10, 2020, 07:03:28 PM
Well that's it for the painting, I could see the finish line in sight yesterday afternoon and couldn't help but leap. Glad to see the end of it! We use these lights under the kiwifruit when harvesting sometimes when we get in the crap, they worked quite well.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200510_192546.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589151453)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200510_210913.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589151453)
 

Remind me not to paint my next mill if I ever build another xD.

I'm really impressed with the 2 pot caprithane, the saw beam looks as though it'd shatter if you dropped it! It's hard as heck and feels plasticy almost.
The different colours are breaking up the green nicely, I think it should look good. Not that that matters but nice bonus.

All I have now is assembly and setup, I would say I'm counting down the final days but our next bout of harvest is just around the corner so I'd I'll reserve that comment for later


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200510_173319.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589151459)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200509_221547.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1589151465)