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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: mikej on December 14, 2005, 02:04:10 AM

Title: Help belsaw m14
Post by: mikej on December 14, 2005, 02:04:10 AM
 Hi i'm new here and kinda new to milling, been around a band mill a little. but never a circle saw and we bought a belsaw m14 cheap it's on a steel frame and appears to be in fair shape the blade was in the crate and had come from the shop . heres where the problem comes in the blade was was supposed to be hammered and new bits problem is the guy who had it done died and we bought it from his nephew and he dosn't know to much about what speed it was hammered for it is a 40 inch blade with 24 teeth it starts to stand up and run true at about 550 -575 but as soon as it starts pullin and the tractor slows down just a little it starts waving and i chicken out and back the log out . I have heard of the blade "singing" and have heard it in small saws like table saws but this saw is totally quite unil it hits the log . we talked to the shop where it was supposed to have been done but there records dont go back that far (or they dont want to look) and the guy we talked to said speed it up till it works and that it would stand 800 rpm with no problem probly more . is there a set rim speed in feet per min for a given saw or type of wood. thanks for any info mikej
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 14, 2005, 05:26:28 AM
I would assume it was hammered for a standard 540 pto speed to work off common farm tractors and you say it stands up around that speed. It definately sounds like your lead is set wrong . Set your lead to zero like no lead at all . Start advancing the log into the blade and send the log through fast enough so you can see nice chips coming off . If really fine sawdust is coming off your not sending the log through fast enough and the fine dust will heat up the rim and make it wobble. If its a belt driven carriage then just pull the lever all the way back send the log through . Check the lead I would say. Alot of heavy duty circle sawyers here on the forum to help so please ask if you need help setting the lead as it really makes a major differance no matter if its a new blade or old. Check the guides too so you have a hair of daylight on each side of the blade but make sure you loosen the saw guides and get them away from the blade before you set the lead. It sounds like a simple problem but maybe you can tell us if your carriage is belt or hydraulic driven . Good luck and welcome to the forum
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 14, 2005, 05:36:48 AM
I forgot to mention that after trying your new lead adjustment you can re-adjust the lead in very increments to move the front of the blade towards the log to find the sweet spot . You will here it in the sound of your tractor not working so hard and if it gets worse then re-adjust the lead back towards zero . A 1/8 inch of lead is considered a drastic adjustment so have fun and fine tune it and you will know when you have it adjusted right and the guides also have daylight on each side. I dont set the guides with the blade running at speed but I can see the hair of daylight rule of thumb and its impossible for myself to adjust the guides on my mill while the blade is at speed. Guides should be set with the blade at speed but then I wouldnt be here to tell my tall tales if I tried to do it that way  :D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 14, 2005, 05:40:10 AM
Also it doesnt cost much to have the blade re-hammered for 540 and I guess I would have that done anyway so you know where youre at from the get go . Take care and lets see some pictures of that first big sloppin wet beautiful board  8)
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 14, 2005, 06:11:47 AM
Last note here from me is that if someone at a saw shop told me to speed it up until it works I would find me a new saw shop and also the saw shop would certainly know the man who previously owned the mill if its all local. I think you need to see "peach" here on the forum
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on December 14, 2005, 11:17:35 AM
 Got enough power in the tractor ??  That rig would use around 45HP or so ???
  Are the teeth SHARP ??? Very important. Who sharpened it ?? Can you file straight across at a TRUE 90 ?? If not, the blade will run into or out of the log. NOT GOOD ???  ;) ;D 

  Been a while since I ran a Circle Mill. Probably take 1 hour to get back into it, though  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: sjh on December 14, 2005, 12:02:52 PM
Unclebuck has some good ideas. A good hammer can tell you what speed your blade is in 10 seconds. They lay it flat supported on 2 sides. Than they put a straight edge on it and use a tapered tool. That is slid under the straight edge. How far it slides in at a certain point is the tension rating. At least that is how my guy does it.
You should also get the Circular sawmill guide.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
or a single free copy obtained by writing to:
Forest Products Laboratory
One Gifford Pinchot Dr
Madison, WI 53726-2398
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: D._Frederick on December 14, 2005, 12:27:49 PM
With 24 teeth, you should have at least 60 hp to keep the rpm in the range the saw was hammered for. The guides should be set with the saw running at the hammered rpm, the blade should float between the guide.

Check the saw lead, you don't want so much that the blade is being pulled into the log.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: Jeff on December 14, 2005, 12:31:49 PM
I would have my doubts that it was even hammered right to begin with if it came from the same place that said: "speed it up till it works and that it would stand 800 rpm with no problem probly more "
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: mikej on December 14, 2005, 01:54:16 PM
 Thanks everyone Iv'e got a john deere 60 on it right now about 40 horse and i agree i dont think it is quite enough .the mill is belt a drive carrige and when it is sawing and not wobbiling it throws nice chips  the first log we cut was only about 8 inches and it cut pretty fair but was throwing alot of chips from back of blade on gig back as it was led out about 1\8" so i adjusted the lead and somehow i misread the book as saying 3\32 and it said 1\32 and i found this out last night after dark so couldnt reset will do it today and try again . thanks mikej
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: D._Frederick on December 14, 2005, 07:15:09 PM
I will add to what DeadHead said about the shape of the saw tooth, the tooth corners must be sharp with no round over showing for the saw to cut straight. If your saw is throwing chips on gig back, it could be hot. Watch your guide, if the saw is pushing hard into a guide you need to check: lead, saw speed, saw teeth, feed rate, and etc.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: J_T on December 14, 2005, 10:17:34 PM
When I first started I though those bits were sharp  :( Wrong they got to be SHARPPP ::) I now only use carbide  8)
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: dail_h on December 15, 2005, 07:08:13 AM
   The JD 60 ought to be enough,not a bunch of extra ,but enough.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: mikej on December 15, 2005, 10:00:06 PM
  Hi all thought i'd update what i have (or havent )found i spent most of the day fighting this saw . I have the lead set at .120 th with a dial indicator on the carrige started at 0 the problem i'm having is this the saw cuts good for about a foot then it it starts to lay over out of the cut to the board side then the cant starts rubbing the center of the blade and heating it goes downhill FAST from there I'm running a little over 40 horse on the arbor at 600 rpm no load with a handheld tach I have no way to know how much it slows down (no tach on the tractor) cutting 8 in. of dry doug fir do you think it is pulling the speed down bad enough to do this . also i have read on here about the shanks getting worn and losing sawdust causing a saw to heat but wouldnt this cause the rim to heat not the eye. thanks mike
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: D._Frederick on December 15, 2005, 10:36:51 PM
mikej,

With a big blade saw, you can create problems with the mating of the blade and saw collars. The collars can distort the blade if the collars are not machined a 100% correct.

To see if this is a problem, take the nut and collar off, but a straight edge across the blade and note the shape(dish) of blade. Put the nut and collar on and tighten the nut, with the straight edge note the shape of the blade. Tightening must not distort the blade.

This problem can be overcome by either shimming the collar so that the blade stands up correctly, or having the collars ground.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: dail_h on December 15, 2005, 10:38:19 PM
   I 'm not sure what the problem is,I don'tthink it's power. My guess would be your saw needs to go to a doctor,but some of these guys with more experience could tell better.If it's laying over and getting hot in the first foot there is a real problem.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on December 15, 2005, 10:38:41 PM
  Sounds to me like you have all the answers right in front of you. You might try more mandrel rpm's. That will tell you something, but, sounds like you need more power and a saw doc. Be very careful you don't blister the saw, getting it hot.

  First mill I bought had a blistered saw. Hammering would fix it, for about 5 White Oak or Post Oak logs, then it would start waving. Bought another saw that was in excellent shape, but, sawing was slow. I had a UD9 International gas-diesel power unit.

  Bought a Corley mill with a 4-71 and never looked back, same saw. 4-71 is about 80 HP, so, you see where you are, power wise. As everyone here suggests, MORE POWER IS BETTER. 6-71 and you have a hard time bogging down the saw. 6-71 is around 120 HP.  ;)

  I would think an 8'' log would hardly punch the governor on a good power unit.  ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: sjh on December 15, 2005, 11:59:34 PM
It sound like the blade needs hammering. It is a good idea to have your collers checked to. I had to have my collers turned. The newly hammered blade wobled about a inch. I couldn't cut crap before that. Know I have a max 1/16" deviation between start and finish of a 16' log.
Also when you find a good saw shop you need to tell him the speed of saw, right or left mill and what it is currently doing.
I think you have enought power. I run a 52" blade with a 45 HP Int w6 and the govorner never even opens up on a 30" white oak.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: etat on December 16, 2005, 12:07:10 AM
The more I think about it the more I've just got to ask this question.  Without going into the exact particulars which I'm pretty sure would be hard to do, what do they do when you talk about hammering a saw blade?  I guess I'm just trying to get a general idea of what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: J_T on December 16, 2005, 12:32:31 AM
It puts tenshion in it they hope in the right place  8) the rin or eye Peach is the best I have heard of  8) Still think you need to slow to about 500rpm and put new bits in it first also watch feed rate .Don't know why but my saw won't cut five hickrey logs without going nuts with steel bits and have to sharpen them .Was so shook up was going to sell the Dang thing even listed in in the forsell section . >:( Then I put those carbide bits in it and not had anouther proublem .May not make sense but stop in and I'll put the others bits in and show you :D :D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: Corley5 on December 16, 2005, 12:36:22 AM
From what you've described I'd be off to the saw doc with the blade.  I got my saw warmed up sawing long high tension red pine and it acted the same way yours is.  The doc hammered and it's been fine ever since.  My saw runs at 500RPM
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 16, 2005, 01:04:52 AM
With a belt driven feed on the carriage all you can do is pull the lever all the way back and let the log go through because when the motor slows way down so will the carriage which leaves out any guess on the feed rate . You have no way to change your feed rate and I would guess this blade you have on is the perfect match for that mill .  Just start from scratch and get the blade hammered and try it again , boy sawing 1 foot and that happens sounds like my first posts on the forum here . Youre going to scare yourself out of sawing like I did until I got hammered , I mean the blade got hammered !  ;D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: mikej on December 16, 2005, 02:05:11 AM
 Well it is going to see a guy who has been working on and around circle saws for  near 80 years (all his life) in the morning and well see what he says from seeing the blade firsthand. bad news is he warned that the local saw doc shouldnt be allowd to work on skillsaw blades   ::) And the next closest that i know of is the one that said "speed it up till it looks right"   :o  Well we'll see mike
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: J_T on December 16, 2005, 10:17:19 PM
Crate it up and send it to Peach 8)
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: mikej on December 17, 2005, 12:20:24 AM
 Well went and saw bill today he's not a pro saw doc but is 74 and been around sawmills all his life and does his own hammering anyway he looked at the blade and he checked it with his guage (said he'd seen alot worse) he worked a few high spots and said he thought it would work better brought it home put it on the saw and pulled the fir log i was cutting off threw about a 12 in. alder on there and cut it up only cut i had trouble with was about an 8 in. cut that made the tractor grunt and i think this is my biggest problem I just dont have enough power I like my old deere but it does not hold rpm's good up high it pulls down to far before it really starts pulling by then the saw has slowed down to much and starts to lay over then heats . anyway once i got the log down to about a 4x8 i turned it and cut a few 1x4s off and it cut great no heat no wander and nice straight wood . but in a 4in cut the tractor never pulled hard . will probly hook bigger tractor to it this weekend and see what happens . thanks for all the help .mike   PS only problem with sending this saw to peach is the freight will be more than i have in the mill .have to exaust all possibilitys before it goes to him thanks mike
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: Fla._Deadheader on December 17, 2005, 07:47:52 AM

  Mike, keep in mind, whatever the cost to have the saw fixed, the mill won't do you any good without a good blade  ::) ;) :)
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on December 17, 2005, 07:47:58 PM
mikej , there is a member here on the forum that runs a 46inch blade with another blade above it and buries big oak logs through it and he uses a B john deere . Its shagbarkfarms and his name is mitch . The hammering by Peach here is worth the wait but I dont know where he is right now . Maybe in Las Vegas  :D
Title: Re: Help belsaw m14
Post by: beenthere on December 17, 2005, 08:41:04 PM
Recently I poked around and ran across the Shagbark Farms site, and was impressed with the quality of pictures posted. Was worth a look for me.

http://shagbarkfarms.com/  is Mitch's website.