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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: AtLast on February 28, 2004, 11:47:24 AM

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: AtLast on February 28, 2004, 11:47:24 AM
I also have a HUSKEE 5.5 hp 27 great....adapted a multi split wedge onto it that can easily be put on or taken off...its a 4 way splitter and works great.
Title: Wood Splitters
Post by: RSteiner on March 05, 2004, 09:43:02 AM
I am considering the purchase of a log splitting device other than the axe and maul I have used for the past 30 years, the old elbows can't take the abuse like they once did.

I have looked at hydraulic powered units and used one several times.  My only problem is they seem to be a little slow, I can split the easy stuff twice as fast by hand.  

I have also looked at a flywheel driven rack and pinion splitter called a Super Split.  The cycle time is only 4 seconds most hydraulic splitters are in the 12 second or more range.  The faster cycle time appeals to me.

I like the fact of not having hydraulic fluid, lines, and valves to worry about.  Just a motor and a couple of drive belts power the super split.  

I would be greatful for any advice you folks might have. :P
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Corley5 on March 05, 2004, 09:51:04 AM
I've got a hydraulic one that I bought at Tractor Supply a couple seasons ago.  It's 25 tons with a Honda 5.5hp engine.  I couldn't be happier with it.  It'll split in either the vertical or horizontal position too which is nice for really big wood.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: rebocardo on March 05, 2004, 01:52:09 PM
>  My only problem is they seem to be a little slow,
> I can split the easy stuff twice as fast by hand.  

When I tell people that they always laugh or think I am telling a tall one. What is worse is if it does not have a four way wedge and you have to split the same log four+ times.

The only thing I would worry about a flywheel driven one is exposed parts, if they are. I would look at something that automatically retracts at the end of the cycle. Other than that, I know nothing about log splitters.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: wiam on March 05, 2004, 05:12:33 PM
I have seen a Super Split at a show and thought it to be a nice unit, but a little pricey.  It does split fast and retracts automatically.  Some tougher blocks took two hits.

When someone tells me they can split wood faster with a maul,  I tell them that I can split it longer with my hydraulic splitter.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Ron Scott on March 05, 2004, 05:26:23 PM
I've got an hydraulic one, also from Tractor Supply. Its the 20 Ton Husky. It has been a good unit so fair with a couple seasons use. It goes fast enough for me to keep up with it.

Visit Tractor Supply in the early fall during their "demo days" and try one out. They also offer them at a discount price then.
That's when I got mine.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Minnesota_boy on March 05, 2004, 05:30:27 PM

When someone tells me they can split wood faster with a maul,  I tell them that I can split it longer with my hydraulic splitter.


 I'll bet I can split wood longer with my Woodmizer.  Works pretty fast too on the longer green cuts.  I prefer to split it in 16 foot lengths and pile it that way, for later chainsawing into blocks.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: wiam on March 05, 2004, 05:42:39 PM
 :D :D :D
MB not exactly what I meant by longer but it would work.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Ed_K on March 05, 2004, 06:17:02 PM
 I run an American 4' splitter, its on 3pt hitch and runs off the tractor hydro's. Split it 4' and stack for drying, then cut to length. It doesn't alway's go all the way to split either. Its vertical so if you can't pick up a heavy stick, just cut it to 16" and process. I also have an old truck frame with a wood rack and 16" slots to cut to length, and a 24" splitter on the end. I cut, roll the piece down to the splitter, and into the elevator, which started as a hay elevator. This starts with 8' or 12' logs, and processed to what ever length is ordered. This is slower than the 4' tho.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: RSteiner on March 05, 2004, 06:43:50 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I know what you all mean when you say you can split longer with a mechanical device over a maul.

I have seen a couple of Super Splits work.  One was 15 years old and averaged 120 cord of wood a year with only a drive belt change.  They tend to be 300 or 400 more than a hydraulic model.

There is a Logging Expo coming up the end of April in Springfield, Mass.  I think I can get a show special which will soften the blow some.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Pete J on March 05, 2004, 07:45:33 PM
If you plan on selling firewood. Get the fastest cycle time machine you can afford. I spent many, many days this summer splitting the leftovers from our sawmilling operation with a 14 second cycle time machine. After I figured out the time I spent vs. the money I made it ended up being less than $10 an hour.
Not gonna make that mistake again.
The super splitter looks nice.  I'm gonna check it out at the Springfield Mass logging show. We are gonna have a booth there in the Better Living Center. Stop by and say hi.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: chet on March 05, 2004, 08:06:32 PM
I have a 20 ton hydraulic that I bought from Fleet Farm in 1980, it's was built by Speeco. It is one purchase I have absolutely never regretted.  If I split the amount of wood this splitter has split over the years I think I'd either look like Hulk Hogan or my arms would be totally shot.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Mark M on March 05, 2004, 08:47:59 PM
I bought one from Baileys. It does a good job but it's big and heavy. Course so am I so I guess that makes us even. :D
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: shopteacher on March 06, 2004, 03:55:46 AM
I have a 20 ton that I picked up at Northern Hyd. (now Nothern Tool) It's been a great machine but for production I think it would be kind of slow. If buying a hyd. model the greater the pump gpm the faster the cycle time.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Lenny_M on March 06, 2004, 05:23:53 AM
 Them supersplits are nice and fast,But be careful,once the cycle starts you can`t stop it :o
I made A hyd,splitter with new componants from northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company For about $500. without the tank and cyl.
5 HP. 13.6GPM 2 stage pump, 3 1/2" cyl. with 2 1/2 shaft. Reasonably fast split speed and fast retract speed.
Great for most stuff but a bit under powered on the really ugley stuff, The ones you don~t really want to pick up anyway.
One thang to consider is working height.Waist height works great for me, easy on the back.
I`ve used some that are low and your always bent over, A few hours and your beat.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: redpowerd on March 06, 2004, 05:40:05 AM
ne1 got a webpage for one of them supersplits?
ive never seen em, been lookin thru old s+w mags, but cant find em. thanks
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: johnjbc on March 06, 2004, 05:50:34 AM
I have had 2 from Tractor Supply. The first was borrowed in the middle of the night about 10 years ago ::) ::). I replaced it with a 3 point hitch module that can be converted from horizontal to vertical. I use vertical because I don't have to lift large donuts. 8) 8)
I'm not sure how many tons of force it has but the cylinder is 4" x 24". :P
Worked OK on my Case 530 but was a little slow. I now run it off the hydraulic pack that used to run the barn cleaner. It is fast, never gets stopped even in a stringy crotch. It will cut 5" oak limbs crossways. 8) 8)
As for splitting faster by hand. If you have nice straight Oak and the first year of your age is 4 or less you can go pretty fast, :) until you hit a knot or crotch and need to get out the wedges. >:( >:(
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 06, 2004, 11:35:30 AM
I have a home-made wood splitter with a 10.5 HP snow blower motor on it. Its fast enough for me to split a piece, have it return, and ready after I throw the split chunks into the cellar hole. Personally I like the speed of mine because when you hurry at something, you end up injuring yourself. This unit doesn't make you hurry at your work, just my pace. Oh and it only cost $600 to make, which is a nice price too.  When you have alot of free-lance weldors and mechanics in an area you can get stuff done cheep. :)
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Blue9R on March 06, 2004, 12:38:48 PM
The Timberwolf splitter with the 6-way wedge is my entry for favorite wood splitter.  It's rated at an 8 second cycle time, 28 tons with an 18 hp Honda engine.

Course, the purchase of a TW-6 is somewhere out in the future, probably 2-3 days after I cash in that winning lottery ticket!

Check out the video clip of the 6-way wedge in action on the bottom of the Timberwolf web page.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 06, 2004, 04:29:35 PM
I have a 35 ton with a 8hp brigs and a single 8 inch wide blade.   I have had guys tell me they can go faster with a ax.   I say bet ya a hundred you cant!   I can do 6 cords in around 4 hours with it if I have good rounds to work with because I know how to do it. ;)   I plant my but on a round and stand the splitter upright in front of me so I don't need to lift even the small stuff.  I don't cycle it all the way every time, 4 or 5 inch is all you need most of the time.  I half the round, spin it and take a 2nd chop that makes 2- 1/2's into 4- 1/4's in one stroke. ;)   It may look slow but when was the last time you split 6 cord before lunch! ;) ;)
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: isawlogs on March 06, 2004, 05:03:56 PM
you can stop the super split  all you got to do is hit the control arm down ....
 I got one of them they do split fast, if you do get one make sure that no parts come loose on the ram even the smallest wear on the bolts can cause the rack and pionion to take out a tooth ...( personal experience ).then your into mula...... other then that they are a good machine keep it greased and they will split with the best....
I put a hitch on it and haul it around with the atv...  
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 06, 2004, 10:31:10 PM
redpowerd, hear is the link for Super Split. ;)

Looks like a very good setup but I wonder about a couple three things.   First is what will it do with say 20" green soggy Birch?   I split out my birch so it will dry and not go punky in the very wet Alaska summers, so will it do it or be a battle?   2nd is what do you do when by your self splitting that 20" green soggy Birch?   I mean it looks like you cant stand at the blade and hit the lever so the chunks would need to be picked up from the ground for the next wack and so on ???   3rd what kind of cords an hour rate can a guy get after he gets a system down on this thing?  I know it cycles faster but as a hole how fast is it?
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Frank_Pender on March 07, 2004, 06:50:52 AM
I have a unit that I designed that can split 6' lilly pads down into kindling.   There are three splitters on one power head, a 20 hp Wisconsin propane powered engine.  One unit
runs horizontal, second runs vertical and the third (kindling spliter) runs horizontal.   All are attatched to a 3/4 ton Ford axel.  I have found a block I could not split.   8)  

 The vertical unit has a 20" lazy susan to place the blocks.   The horizontal unit has a permanent 4 way wedge as opposed to the vertrical which is a single wedge.  the kindling splitter is a box like setup similer to a cabage slicer with a box placed on top of the knives.

I now have the horizontal unit set up to split 36" logs for the Taylor hotwater furnaces, but all three units use to cycle in 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: HORSELOGGER on March 07, 2004, 07:21:28 AM
I had a 20 ton Speeco up til last summer, when I replaced it with a Supersplitt. It will go as fast as your hands can move, and I have to stop to take a break at times cuz the machine can work me into the ground! The opposite was true with the hydraulic unit, it was just sooooo slooow. As far as chasing pieces falling on the ground, the unit has a nice production table, so when splitting a big piece, I pop it in half, then set it at the edge of the table while I split up one half at a time. For real speed, I load up the bucket of my skidloader with rounds , raise the bucket to a comfortable level next to the splitter and rock! I have a pretty good bundled firewood contract each summer and sell a little delivered firewood all winter. I also added a Mountain Valley bundler last year and it was well worth the price of addmission in time savings. One thing I will say though.... I never was able to stick the old hydeaulic unit, no matter how nasty a crotch piece I threw at it, however, I can stick the supersplitt if I dont read the grain right.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: RSteiner on March 08, 2004, 04:28:32 AM
Once again thanks for all the comments and advice. :)

A friend who purchased a Super Split last year visited with us this weekend.  They split about 100 cord last year.  This guy is 60 years old and he told me he can split a cord in about an hour if the wood is stacked right next to him.

I looked at the Timber Wolf splitters except for the smallest model they were all more expensive than the Super Split model I am looking at.  The faster cycle times and the work height of the splitter are the attractive features.

I realy enjoy generating the fire wood pile every year and help a friend or two with there winter wood.  The wife doesn't share my passion in the wood work so getting the job done quicker is a plus.  The Super Split unit is a much smaller package than most of the Hydraulic splitters I have looked at.

I considered a 3PH model but they tie up the tractor bucket for feeding the splitter or other chores.  I like to split everything I cut from 4" diameter up so it will dry faster, I save cut wood down to 1" in diameter.  If I cycle a Super Split 100 cycles per day when splitting at 4 seconds per cycle versus an 9 second cycle on the Timber Wolf I looked at that figures out to 50 more cycles or splits.  I think that is somewhere around 80 minute time saving per 100 cycles.  

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 08, 2004, 01:40:12 PM
Looking at cycle time is a very misleading way to buy a splitter.   You don't use the hole cycle most of the time, in or out with a hydraulic splitter.   I have had 4 splitters over the years and find the vertical is way WAY less work then lifting every chunk up off the ground to a horizontal.   With my vertical I plant my but on a round in front of it with a stout garden rake to drag it to me and go to town, little to no lifting and I can go solid all day long.   Also the hydraulics I have had would all split even cottonwood that the only other way to split is with a chain saw, they go "BANG" all at once. ;D   I like Franks lazy susan thing and may add one to my splitter this year.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Captain on March 10, 2004, 04:34:47 AM
I have a home built unit by my wife's grandfather about 20 years ago.  It has a 5hp briggs, and a very slow cycle time.  The hydraulic piston is in great shape and is about 2 1/2 inches.  I am thinking of a rebuild including a 24hp wisconsin engine I have, and would like to size a pump and tank appropriately for faster cycle times.  Anybody know of a website for information on these selections? :P

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Stan on March 10, 2004, 05:23:39 AM
I have one of the Northern Supply 20 ton units and I agee it is slow, but so am I. I've got some 16" diameter gum that I can't split. Hydraulic oil sprays out of nearly every fitting and the ram stops.  :-/  Y'all are welcome to bring your mauls, or flywheels or whatever and we'll have a splitter's contest.  8)
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: RSteiner on March 10, 2004, 05:27:13 AM

You might try northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company when they were Northern Hydraulic they carried a pretty extensive line of wood splitter components.  The one feature which makes a hydraulic splitter faster is the GPM of the pump.  More oil flow to the cylinder the faster it moves the pistion.

Most hydraulic splitters have 2-stage pumps.  The first stage of the pump moves a high volume of oil, high GPM at a low pressure.  The second stage kicks in when the pressure in the output line of the pump reaches a certain point.

The second stage of the pump produces high pressures at a low volume or GPM.  There are many components in the hydraulic circuit which can control the volume of fluid flow.  Hydraulic lines that are small diameter inside will affect flows as well as the directional control valve size, its internal ports in the spool section.

Just make sure you use a correctly sized pressure relief valve in the system, fine high pressure hydraulic streams can penetrate the skin especially your eyes. :o

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Corley5 on March 10, 2004, 07:38:41 AM
AtLast,  Where'd you get your multi split wedge?
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: rebocardo on March 10, 2004, 09:50:48 AM
> I've got some 16" diameter gum

I had some 26 inch chunks. Finally I gave up trying to split the sweet gum by hand. I flipped the rounds up on their sides and ripped with the grain, so I was ripping with the trunk length. Went a lot faster after that. Plus, I have the only firewood that is squared on all sides :-D
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: burlman on March 11, 2004, 05:39:23 PM
I am going into my 18th year with my super split. I love this machine, I used to do 100 cords a year, in my younger less sore back days. I also rented it out on weekends to neighbors. One group split 10 tandem dumptruck loads in one day. I  upgraded the moter to a 5hp. honda with dual belts, I also raised the height 6 inches so your not so hunched over, I also added a table to the front to catch split blocks insted of having to pick up the pieces again. The little plastic knob to engage the drive is next to useless, I put a good T-handle on it to get a good grip, you have to pull up quick to engage the rack and pinion, or you will grind the gears and cause premature wear on the pinion. Yes tough wood will take a few consecutive hits to get through. The blade is very fine, much like an axe, so you are really shearing the wood not forceing it apart like a wide wedge like a hydraulic unit. You'll have to decide on the majority size and species you'll be splitting to decide. Most elms and some twisty yellow birch, can give some grief because they are so stringy grain. I find two people works the best. We park the splitter between 2 piles of wood one person feeds one  of his blocks the other clears the split pieces into the truck, then we switch positions on the next block.usually we can split 2 cords and pile it on the truck in a half hour.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Captain on March 12, 2004, 03:31:45 AM
Thanks RSteiner, I picked up the Northern Catalog last night and found a formula for psi/GPM/HP that should get me in the ballpark.  Now to decide wether to rebuild the Wisconsin or buy a new engine.  

I also have to check the GPM of my current pump.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 12, 2004, 06:02:00 PM
Captain, go to this link, click on "Free Calculators" and you will find some great things at your fingertips. ;)   They are to hydraulics what this sight is to wood.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Button on March 13, 2004, 03:00:56 AM
 I wish I had a digital camera. I begged a buddy to let me have the splitter he and his father made in the 70's during the oil embargo. This baby is powered by a 4 cyl willy's engine,2 stage forklift pump, garbage truck packer piston, 4 way split, hydraulic crane log lift, all mounted on an massive I beam. The tongue weight you don't dare even try to lift. His father worked at a shipyard at the time and is truly a work of heavy metal art. They haven't burned wood in years so they finally let me have it on the condition I would never sell it. Right now I am saving to replace all the hyd hoses. I dought it will be as efficient as a new one but I would love to try a crack at that gum.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Joe W on March 13, 2004, 09:51:58 AM
Back when I was searching for a used mill I came accross a splitter like I had never seen before.This splitter was 3 point hitch with a driveshaft that was screw shaped. Maybe 6" diam. going down to a point.This seems like a really simple and low maintance attachment. Have any of you folks seen one of these? Or know where I can get any info.Thanks, Joe W
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: beenthere on March 13, 2004, 10:44:34 AM
JoeW. Screw splitters seemed somewhat popular 10-15 years ago, and touted as boltable to the rear wheel of a car, truck, or garden tractor. Get on your knees to split. It would screw into the block of wood, and if you keep the block from spinning around and knocking you over, they would split okay.  There was a stub (rest) that was supposed to keep the block from spinning, if the screw was started into the block near one end. If you hit into the middle, you suddenly had your hands full of a spinning block of firewood spinning wildly around.  Found on called the "Stickler" (also think one is named the "Unicorn") at:
I remember people using them that would wish there was a way to reverse the screw to get the partially split block off the screw. Apparently some species didn't split cleanly enough, which would be expected.
Button:  I had a friend with access to a splitter similar to the one you speak of, made with 4 cyl continental engine, big pump, and a huge ram from a garbage truck. The splitter wedge was a 6 way, one upright, and two wings. This meant that the wood was compressed between the wedges in the center (bad design). When I saw it demonstrated, major hyd. oil leaks and wood that looked like mush was produced. Only something to talk about. Not sure what ever happened to it.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Minnesota_boy on March 14, 2004, 05:17:50 AM
I have one of the Sticlers, the screw type wood splitters that mount on the 3-point hitch.  It works pretty well in most types of wood, pretty fast and fairly comfortable as I can set it to the height I want with the 3-point and the included legs.  I've split lots of cords of wood with it.  You have to be careful with it, but then again, you want to be careful with any equipment.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: Frank_Pender on March 14, 2004, 07:15:32 AM
Careful with the wood screw units.   A 15 year old son of a friend had pant leg caught and ripped his lef off at the knee. :'(
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: RSteiner on March 15, 2004, 04:32:57 AM
I had one of those screw type splitters called the Stickler.  My folks gave it to me for a birthday present at least 25 years ago.  I used it for several years with only one close call, my fault.  The only thing I had a difficut time splitting was cut to lenght firewood, 18" long pieces.

Running the splitter on the back of the pickup left the center at least 15" off the ground.  Trying to split an 18" long piece was difficult because on end had to be on something that was not going to move or turn.  Several attemps left an out of balance propeller turning on the rear of the truck.

It worked great on 6' long wood but this ment more chainsaw work cutting it to length.  It ended up sitting in the cellar and wood shed for 15 years.  Last January I offered it to anyone who was willing to pay the postage from the TractorBynet site.

I just heard this weekend from the gentleman who took me up on the offer, the splitter is once again doing it's thing now out west. 8)

As with anything mechanical you have to be careful when using them.  The chainsaw is probably one of the most dangerous devices we use but as long as your respect level is right and you pay attention chances are you will come out okay.

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 15, 2004, 09:42:43 PM
If been looking for some talk on splitters and Finlay found where. Ive looked at iron oak splitters out of Ill. they are commercial units 8sec.return hyd.lift and hyd.wedge (adj.)you set as wood go thru main wedge.I think Bailie's Sells something similar for over 5000. Anybody know more about this brand? Cant decide how for to go to make the job more efficient
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 15, 2004, 11:55:20 PM
If I had enough work to need a 5 grand splitter I think a processor would be in order ;)
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: tawilson on March 16, 2004, 03:47:18 AM
What would be nice is if someone made a $5000 woodsplitter that would be ready to accept components to turn it into a wood processor. I haven't seen one yet and maybe it's a stupid or impossible idea.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 16, 2004, 07:19:19 AM
I read about the IRON OAK-COMMERICAL one in TIMBER LINE which mostly deals with HIGH dollar stuff but in Jan issue they had a lot of mills,planers ect. that are normal for most of us. For my own use Ive allways said I can do better with a mall and not mess with standard splitters.But now (62+) my back cant handle bending over much.
the one in timber line told we 4200 Delivered.Almost temped if I can get my son-in-law to go halves.This guy in the article is runing two, he up graded and kept the older one and says there great.Im told "your geting to old for all this stuff" I wonder who would say a think like that
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 16, 2004, 07:21:57 AM
PS. these wood processers start at around 30000 to over 80000.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: ADfields on March 16, 2004, 02:53:53 PM
Processes start new around 14 grand new without a conveyor.   The trouble with them is crooked and small wood slows them way down.   If your cutting mesquite or that crooked Texas live oak I don't know if it would be worth the trouble or not but for that pine y'all have in east Texas it would be great.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 16, 2004, 09:19:11 PM
I noticed that too.Most are fussy about size and crooks,ect.  I like to be able to split the nasty stuff that nobody wants to mess with.Im still in piny woods around Palestine.syp will burn your house down.I have a small saw mill to deal with pine and anything that will make a board.Thats what is nice about hardwood.Its all usable.That splitter is a compromise and still the little women says im nuts. O well.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 16, 2004, 09:23:43 PM
On the subject of using the whole tree.Is there any way to make or buy a small debarker or other to use small dia. syp for making post.I can get them treated for about .10 bft.
Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: wiam on March 17, 2004, 07:14:18 AM

There is a post debarker an this site.  I saw one operating in W. Springfield MA 2 years ago at the Forestry Expo. I think they do them in gas, electric or pto.  I have thought about trying to build one.  

Title: Re: Wood Splitters
Post by: lamar on March 17, 2004, 08:51:01 PM
Wiam that first one looks good.As you said now if we can just build one. I have lots of syp that needs thinning.I have run some 6" or so thru the mill with mixed results.If your carefull and match the dia. up you can mill 2 at a time and when you get flats you can speed up.I kind of like a few 3" sq. post for light fence post.Ive had store bought treated ones in the ground for over 10yrs. and still look new.