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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Farm29 on February 22, 2017, 08:09:13 PM

Title: ERC on the stump
Post by: Farm29 on February 22, 2017, 08:09:13 PM
I was wondering if any one could give me some help on a ?  I am sawing a few cedars and want to buy some on the stump.  The place that is buying the lumber will also buy logs at 70 cents pbf doyle scale delivered what would u all consider a fair price would be for me and the land owner to buy cedar on the stump meaning I cut limb and hual the logs to my mill Thanks for any replies
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: killamplanes on February 22, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
Well here anyway go on halfs with landowner. Meaning if tree is worth 100$ then give landowner 50$ and you do the rest. That's 350mbft, I buy timber here lump sum. Cut it haul to a mill or back to mine. Usually half the value delivered to mill except walnut w/o, higher valued things. And I pay more for easy access, more quantity etc...
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: Cedarman on February 23, 2017, 07:01:49 AM
I don't know of anyone that buys cedar on the doyle scale.  It is simply not used because it way underestimates the footage in small cedar logs.  It is used at 17" and up because doyle is rather close to actual footage in the log in larger diameters.   The cedar scale is the most accurate and what most people in the cedar business use.  I buy a lot by the ton tree length.  Around here 50 cents per foot on cedar scale is the going rate.  I know in Ark it is less.
Some hardwood loggers work cedar on the 1/2's only because they are buying the hardwood that way.  There are only a few loads on the tract and they cut mostly the bigger ones leaving the smaller diameters.
1/4 to 1/3 works out well if you want to make a profit on cedar logging.  If you want to just break even, go 1/2s.
When we log cedar, I pay lump sum up first.  Saves a huge amount of time not having to measure 1000's of logs.  Plus since we bring it tree length, I can let it set until I need to get to it.  It takes some effort to learn the footage in a standing tree based on DBH and estimating size of logs as you go up the tree.   Measure the DBH standing, cut down , buck to lengths , measure the logs, (we go to 4" or less top) calculate footage, compare to DBH and they you can estimate volume.  I put a paint mark on all trees when I measure them.  Do a hundred by hundred plot, and using GPS see how much area there is.  Takes some work, but want to be fair to me and owner.
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: ozarkgem on February 23, 2017, 07:13:04 AM
Here its on the International scale. Logger gets 2/3 landowner get 1/3. 35-60 cents. I quoted .40 delivered yesterday. Depends on the log. If its a good log for slabs I will pay more. Run of the mill 8-10" tops I can saw about 800- 1000 BF a day by my self. After the logs are staged. So maybe that will help you figure a price. My BIL in OK buys by the ton. MO Walnut pays 1.00 per ft using Doyle. My guess is its to their advantage to use Doyle.
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: sandsawmill14 on February 23, 2017, 07:18:14 AM
Well here anyway go on halfs with landowner. Meaning if tree is worth 100$ then give landowner 50$ and you do the rest. That's 350mbft, I buy timber here lump sum. Cut it haul to a mill or back to mine. Usually half the value delivered to mill except walnut w/o, higher valued things. And I pay more for easy access, more quantity etc...
x2

if they were to pay on the cedar scale around $350 a mbft would probably be all they would pay so its a wash either way :) around here i get 1/2 for just sawing it but most is either left standing or piled with the tops and left :-\ there are just very few mills that will fool with around here so no market and you can about name your price if you are willing to buy it :)
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: TKehl on February 23, 2017, 08:17:13 AM
How big are they and how many are there?  Sounds like you have plans for them at your mill.  Will you sell or keep the lumber?

Unless big and plentiful, you'll be eating Ramen real quick cutting at 1/2.  1/4 may work.  Several years ago, I tried cutting  cedar for a shaving mill for tuition.  Cutting off our land and keeping 100%.  I quickly decided there were much easier ways to make money than cutting Cedar in MO in July.

To put it in perspective, there are two 12-14" cedar trees 30 minutes away I could go get for free (drop limb and load, no cleanup) and I haven't done it yet. 

Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: Farm29 on February 23, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Thank you for the replies.  I'm very new at this and trying to learn the best I can with out breaking the bank.  I didn't think using the Doyle scale was corret on the smaller cedars the guy that I talked to about buying cedar lumber just said that's how he did it but a decent few I'm working with will be over 17". Cedar is one thing that is easy for me to find and easyer to deal with with my support equip.  I called around and found a company buying cedar logs at 70 cents bf or lumber at 80 cents bf. Doyle.   He said that the only way to make money that way sawing is on smaller diameter were you should get a 30 to 40 percent gain of lumber of the Doyle scale.  bigger logs less gain less money per bf but faster saw time 🤔  I am wanting to log my self so I don't have to pay the 70 cents then saw the logs myself and sell the lumber.  after he seen my prouduct he said he would take all I could bring him.   I might be off my rocker but am new and just trying to get into it thanks again
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: TKehl on February 23, 2017, 10:07:05 AM
That's nice size cedar.  Hopefully no rot.

Sounds like a good chance to start small, track time and expense, then see what works for you.  Would love to hear what you find out!
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: ozarkgem on February 23, 2017, 07:09:37 PM
Logging Cedar is a LOT of labor. Limbs, limbs and more limbs. Where are you located?
Mo Walnut pays 1.00 pbf Doyle and they are not a loggers best friend. If he is offering 70 cents that is way low. Paying .80 for sawn Cedar? Saying you will make it up on small log scale. Maybe but probably not. Too many holes and other flaws in cedar for every log to have all the lumber it scales. Does he saw lumber or just buy. I don't think I would tackle it without at least a .30 spread. Can't buy lumber for .80 here . I get 1.50 bf.and most get more.
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: Farm29 on February 24, 2017, 06:56:01 AM
Thanks ozarkgem I'm in central mo pretty close to Jefferson City I looked up Missouri walnut and found contact number to call today. you sell cedar for a $1.50 a br green? That would be nice is that wholesale or retail?
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: ozarkgem on February 24, 2017, 07:42:16 AM
That is dried. I don't sell it green. Green is 1.00 from the Amish. People buy it then complain to me about it . But they saved .50!
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: TKehl on February 24, 2017, 07:47:32 AM
pretty close to Jefferson City

Well howdy, we're almost neighbors!  Will the shaving mill in Linn (or is it Loose Creek?) buy your cedar waste?  If it's fairly fresh, they might.

FYI, one of our forum members is hosting a get together in Warsaw in a couple weeks.  All are welcome.  Details here.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,94058.0.html (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,94058.0.html)
Title: Re: ERC on the stump
Post by: Farm29 on February 24, 2017, 08:46:50 AM
I been  looking for somewhere to go with the waste I have an outside hardy wood stove if all else fails I have a Hartsburg address where about are you and thanks for the pricing info  I called around and this was the first guy that gave me a chance selling lumber but I really didn't know if I was being took  advantage of being a newbie that's why I got on this fourm a lot of good information for a new guy