PTO conversion for old processor

[landscraper]

I looked at an older firewood processor that would be a fixer-upper today, it says "Eastern Equipment - Ludlow Vermont" and on the cutoff saw frame it says "The Brute".  Sound familiar to anyone? It appears that is also where Built-Rite is, same company or any connection?  Anyone with experience with Eastern Equipment machines?  Opinions?

It's got two gas engines, but one motor is likely locked up.  First motor is a gray Kohler Twin, older motor (looks like a Wisconsin but has Kohler sticker, not a Command or modern production unit) probably 25hp guessing based on size, that only runs the pump for the conveyor and saw and hold down bar.  The battery was dead so I couldn't turn it over, but it's been sitting a few years under a bucket  The splitter circuit has it's own Honda 13hp that is locked up when pulled (it was under a bucket too at least when I saw it so I don't know, might just be stiff from sitting).  Owner was working the machine until a few years back when he cut way back on wood.  Machine is as is where is and priced to reflect condition, I'm assuming in my offer that the one motor is shot, and that the other one probably is too, and that all the hoses need replaced.  I would be happy if I was wrong on any of that.

The rest of the machine looks good, definitely had been greased, not too rusty, not covered in bark and sawdust, log trough and log deck were straight, has a manual raise 4 way wedge.  Needs tires, hyd. oil looked clean.  There is a separate gas powered conveyor (18' or 20') in the deal too, motor appears ok on that one.  The processor will need new pressure hoses, wire showing on lots of them.  Owner said when it was running that the cut-off saw was steady but not fast, how big of a hydraulic motor should a 24" cutoff saw have?  Generally speaking what kind of PSI and GPM should I be looking forward if I go with a PTO pump for a smaller processor like this - 2000psi/25gpm? 

I would be doing about 100cords a year as a sideline, weekends.  I'm leaning towards PTO pump versus finding a replacement motor(s) since I have the tractors and the machine wouldn't move much once it got here. Any thoughts?  I have a used 13hp honda from a water pump that I could use too if the PTO pump was a bad idea.

[North River Energy]

Have you verified that both pumps turn freely? (As in, the motors are stuck, rather than the motors won't turn on account of pump problems?)
If the pumps are 'good' you might set them up to run off a common shaft by way of cogs and chains.  Then drive the shaft with the PTO.  Doing so would allow the possibility of changing flow rates (cog swapping) until you find what works best.
For instance, most common splitter valves flow something like 25gpm max, whereas many common splitter cylinders have undersized ports that can't fully use that flow.

Driving all functions off one pump will likely become annoying over time, as the action will be sequential rather than simultaneous/blended.

Unless the Honda has a lung full of water, you might be able to get it going for the cost of your time and a set of rings.

Unless I'm mistaken, Built-Rite, Timberwolf, and 'your' machine share a common origin.
The Brute should be worth renovating. 
Got pictures?

[blackfoot griz]

Do you have any pictures to post?
My first reaction would be to use the pumps on the machine if they are functional and the gas engines are toast. You could convert the existing pumps to run off your tractor PTO with belts drives without breaking the bank.
I full agree with North River that trying to run everything off one pump will be a costly headache.

[r.man]

In theory I like the idea of powering a processor with a tractor but depending on the tractor the fuel usage may hurt and you are putting a fair number of hours on the tractor. I have a friend who used to split his wood with at John Deere powered three point splitter. Worked well but used a lot of fuel. He switched to a modern well designed splitter that works as well as fast for a fraction of the fuel.

[landscraper]

OK, got some pics - going back later this week the drag the unit out of the weeds and back home.  The tubs were on the motors.



That's from the splitter end, shows the cutoff saw and feed chain. 



That's the 2 motors - a Kohler K582S 23hp twin and a Honda 13HP GX.  The kohler pump runs the drag chain, the saw chain, and the saw bar feed cylinder.  The honda pump runs the log-hold-down bar and the splitter.  The pump on the Honda says "Northern Inc." and "Model 1057" from Burnsville Minnesota, the other pump has no label.



That's the splitter end and control valves.  5 levers - infeed, sawbar, hold-down, saw-advance, splitter.  The two pumps have separate reservoirs.  The log deck is in this picture, it just pins onto the trough.  The drag chain is chain driven by a little sprocket on a hydraulic motor and a big sprocket on the chain axle.


I am no longer thinking about PTO conversion, I think for the $500 a 25gpm single pump would cost I can get it running.  I pulled the dipstick on the Honda and saw used but clean motor oil, no water emulsified or floating on top, so if there is water on top of the cylinder the rings are tight.  The Fuel tank on the honda is nearly empty, and the fuel shutoff was in the off position when I found it.  Hopefully he ran the carburetor dry the last time he ran it.  I'm going to squirt some oil down the plug hole and let it soak.  The oil on the kohler was likewise used but decent clean, and I got the flywheel to wiggle a little, so I will soak it a little too before turning it over so I don't scuff the rings.  Even if the Honda is DOA I have an identical spare.  If the Kohler has problems that's a different story, don't have one of them laying around.  Right now my plan is to replace a handful of hydraulic hoses and generally lube and clean while I fart around getting the motors running.  Upon looking at it closely in the sunlight only a few of the hoses are really bad, the ones that got a lot of UV.  All the hoses under the machine and out of the way look pretty good.  I will have to replace about 6-8 hoses it looks like.  I stuck a stick to the bottom of both hydraulic tanks and got clean oil, no sludge or milky oil.  The infeed chain bearings on both ends took grease on the first pump, and were pushing old grease out by the third pump or so, I think it got lubrication when it was in use.  The splitter cylinder looks like a 4" or 5" diameter, with a 2" rod, so I wouldn't expect that to be very fast, right?  The fast ones have a bigger rod relative to the cylinder diameter?  The pressure line to the cylinder has a "Tee" fitting on top of the valve block and then _2_ lines that "Tee" back together at the pressure-in port.  Would that make the cylinder any faster, or would the port and valve restriction be the limiting factor, I've never seen that done before. 

The only comment the current owner had was the cutoff saw didn't exactly set the world on fire.  It was not super sharp when I saw it, but not blunt dull.  I will try it and if it is slow maybe someone could recommend a good hydraulic motor for a 24" (I think) cutoff saw?  I think this unit was made late 80's to early 90's, maybe a better hyd. motor is out there than was back then.  How long should it take a hyd. chain saw with a sharp chain to cut a 16" red oak?

I took a closer look at the conveyor, it's about 24' in length, and about 7' tall at it's lowest dump height, a jack-cylinder adjusts it up from there, looks like there is enough stroke in the jack cylinder to get the tipping point up 14-15 feet, maybe more.   I am going to try to sell mostly dump truck loads so it would be good to be able to convey right into a truck.

Let me know what you think.

[Dave Shepard]

I just put one of those Kohler engines on a LT40 mill. It is a very nice starting and running engine.

[r.man]

Looks good, all the basics are there. Large shaft on a splitting cylinder speeds up the back stroke and therefore the cycle time. You will have to do something about the block to splitter delivery or you are going to be eating wood and crushing fingers unless there is something else to it that I can't see? I am extremely envious of you. If money is tight I wouldn't get in a huge hurry to change the hoses, lots of ratty looking hoses outlast pretty ones.

[landscraper]

There is a missing piece at the bottom of the ramp, I can see where it was welded to the frame - it made the second half of the "V" that cradles the log for the splitter.  I will have to make up a replacement piece since the original is nowhere to be found. 

[North River Energy]

That looks like a worthy project.

The line routing on the splitter ram might be related to 1)auto cycle, and 2) a dump valve, routing return flow from the working end directly back to the tank. 
Or not.
The cylinder looks standard issue.  Larger rod to bore ratio will speed things up for sure.  Aerial bucket lifts are a good source for cylinders, but you do have to re-port for flow.
For the kind of wood that will go through that infeed trough, a 4" bore should be more than enough.

You can get a good guess at the volume of the Kohler pump by measuring the shaft, the inlet port, and the pressure port, and then comparing those to pumps for which you have flow numbers. 
Sometimes the pump number is stamped on the face of the flange where you cant see it without separating from the motor.
Are there any flow controls or dividers between the Kohler pump and the rest of that circuit?  Could be something simply isn't adjusted properly.
On the other hand, it could be a matter of marginal flow to meet cost specifications, in which case larger pumps might be the easiest solution.

And more photos as you go.  It's always interesting to see how machines were built, and how they can be improved along the way.

[landscraper]

North River Energy - "Are there any flow controls or dividers between the Kohler pump and the rest of that circuit?"

On the Honda circuit there is a splitter block where the inlet line (3/4") is broken into a 1/2" and a 3/4" line, there is what I think is an adjustable flow control on the side of the block.  I think maybe the hold-down circuit is flow restricted since it is a small cylinder and the lever for it is detented, I'm assuming once you dog the log down and detent the lever it holds the log until you finish cutting and retract the hold-down.

On the line that feeds the saw bar advance cylinder there is a flow control fitting in line, presumably to keep the saw from advancing too fast?

On the Kohler pressure line to the valve I don't remember seeing dividers or restrictors but TBH I was mostly looking for copperheads in the weeds under the machine .

I will check the Kohler pump once I get it home and look for an ID # and try to find some specs.

North River Energy - "For the kind of wood that will go through that infeed trough, a 4" bore should be more than enough."

I figured the trough was about right for up to 16"-18" wood, sound right?  With a 4 way wedge I would think anything bigger than 18" diameter would make for some chunky blocks.  All the wood I will be running through this unit will come from my own clearing jobs, I will be picking the straighter and better diameter logs to process, the crooked or oversize wood will get sold log length to someone who wants to cut and split their own. 

I got a chance to talk to the previous owner, he said the deal with the saw was that if you pushed it through the wood too fast it would stall, so he said he feathered it.  He said an 18" hardwood log would take about 20 seconds to cut.  I watch some of the modern processors and they seem faster than that, but in the sales videos they are always cutting softwood, at least not oak or hickory or what I will be cutting.  I was thinking about cycle time, and while a 20 second overall feed-saw-split cycle time on 18" long blocks between 12"-16" diameter ought to be just fine for me in terms of output, 20 seconds on the sawing alone seems like alot. 

Can you play with drive sprocket size much or will you get out of the torque curve of the little motor too fast if you gear up with a smaller sprocket?  All this is academic until I get it running and try a few cords, if it is too slow, I will look for restrictions or maybe find that I just have an undersized saw motor or main pump.  I got what I consider to be a decent deal on the rig, and I have a little budget left to get it up to snuff. 

I did a little digging and I think the Northern 1057 pump seems to be a 2 Stage pump, 16gpm first stage @650psi, 2nd stage 3.5gpm @ 2500psi.  Anyone familiar with that can confirm?  It is still sold as a log splitter pump by Northern.

Thanks for your input.

[North River Energy]

On the Honda circuit;
One version of that variable flow control has an internal pressure regulator, while the other does not. If it does, evident by the large hex cap protruding from one end, the regulated side of the flow might bypass at a lower pressure than you want for that particular circuit. If memory serves, there's a high pressure and a low pressure variant.  Might be a number stamped on the cap?
Might not be an issue at all, as the regulated leg probably controls the saw feed and not the splitter, but it's worth mentioning.
Unless the saw clamp spool is really worn, you shouldn't need to detent the valve for the log clamp to hold?


If you can find some numbers on the saw motor, you can probably figure out the flow requirements, HP, and  optimal RPM.  If the numbers 'look good' it's possible that the pressure relief on the saw motor circuit is set too low.  Which is like climbing a steady grade with a slipping clutch, in that you can get there, but not the way you want to. 

It could be that it the previous owner was overly optimistic on the machine capacity.
The cutoff bar could have been sized for sales/marketing purposes. ;)
 
The manual log deck and somewhat narrow/deep infeed suggest smaller diameter feed stock. 
You'll figure out pretty quick what will hang up on the sides, and what will go through.

Get it running, figure out what all the levers do, run enough logs through to find the aggravation, then let the (modification) games begin.

[landscraper]

Update:  I dragged the rig home Thurdsay, and this afternoon spent really a very little bit of time and had both motors running.  The diaphragm fuel pump on the Kohler is not pumping, I took it apart and all appears ok, I'm assuming the diaphragm has dry rot or a perforation or something, because the plunger is pumping with each revolution of the crank but no suction or pressure on either port.  the fuel line from the tank and to the carb are clear, and it has a new inline filter.  The honda however started on the third pull! (after cleaning the carb etc and putting in fresh gas of course).   New battery on the kohler and an hour spent goofing around with pouring gas in the carb from a can to keep it running but I rigged up a gravity tank and it ran fine.  So, I will get an electric fuel pump tomorrow and probably a few of the bad hoses in the next few days and try to split some wood by the end of the week.  I have to go back and get the conveyor belt and log deck sometime this week too.  I'll deal with getting that stuff hooked together and running later, for now I'll just load a few cords with the tractor to get the bugs worked out.

All the hydraulic circuits seem to work fine, the splitter stroke was pretty fast in the first stage, I didn't split anything yet and  the pull-back stroke was fairly quick, it is tied to the clamp circuit so that when the clamp goes down the splitter retracts all the same time, fairly good idea to save a second or so on the overall cycle.

The saw runs around the bar and sprocket fine,I will have to put it under a load to see how it cuts.  The 12v oiler did work too.  I did notice it was running full-comp semi-chisel chain, .404.  Is that the right chain choice for a processor?  I would have figured full chisel, unless the wood had a lot of dirt in it?  Virtually all my wood will be loaded by trackhoe or wheel loader into a log trailer or dumptruck, no skidding involved, so maybe I will switch to full chisel and just sharpen a little more often?  This bar is 24" I believe.  Also, wouldn't 3/8" chain have a narrower kerf and less drag through the wood=less work for the saw motor?  Maybe I could switch sprockets and bars and go 3/8".

The log trough is about 24" wide at the top, and the depth from top of trough to top of a drag link is about 8".  I have lots piles of wood to play with so I will split a few cords this week and see what size logs feels right for the machine. After that I'll have an idea about how productive the machine is and whether the saw is slow cutting or not. 

Thanks for all for the info, I'm looking forward to running a load of logs through it!

[blackfoot griz]

It sounds like you have a great project going!
FWIW, I run .404 full chisel on my processor and it does fine.  If that's what has been used on yours, I would stick with it.

Does the saw have any way to control the speed of the cut? 
What color will it end up being?

[timberlinetree]

We have had our brute/built right splitter/conveyor for along time and love them. They are still in business. Good luck!

[landscraper]

Well, as an update to those that expressed interest - the processor has been up and running now - doing just fine.  I welded a tube frame and plate up for the opposite site of the "chute" where the logs drop down from the bucksaw to the splitter.  I put it up on some wood blocks so that the conveyor would slide under the splitter to catch the splits, and away I went.  I've run about 10 cords of hardwood through it, the only complaint I would say is that the 2 stage splitter pump is a little weak - need to check the relief on it, it stalled a little on some knotty ash and locust logs.  Otherwise it did fine, definitely will do 1 cord an hour if the log deck is kept full, maybe a shade more than a cord if the logs are sized right.  I have a few little tweaks to make but all in all I am in business - which is good because I start a nice clearing job later this month and am planning to stockpile a lot of locust, white oak and hickory to split this summer.  I changed over to a Oregon 59 full chisel chain and it cuts noticeably better.  I would say it advances through 12" locust at about 1" of diameter per second, faster on cherry, about the same on ash and oak.  That's acceptable to me.  I had one of my clearing guys help run a few cords with me just so he could see how the firewood needed to be bucked up for the machine versus how we normally cut it.  He caught on right away. 

Thanks to all for the input,

[Corley5]

Semi chisel will hold an edge better in dirty wood than full.  It may not cut as fast but it will cut longer ;)

[North River Energy]

Thanks for the update. 
If you have not already done so, plumb a pressure gauge into the splitter circuit and make sure it's not a weak spring in the valve relief.

If it is the pump, you can probably run at least 16gpm with that Honda.

And more photos/video...?