Logger damage to residual stand

[CuddleBugFirewood]

I certainly agree with jeff and onewithwood, as that is the kind of forestry my dad and I practice, but to address the point I think KYLogger's is concerned with is the economic feasiblility of removing that tree for the logger and to educate the landowner on why such trees should be removed? 

For example:
I try to cut as many marginal trees as possible when on my logging jobs, but their are trees it doesn't make sense for me to cut economically, and I am probably losing money on some.  I recently cut some post oak that only gave about 8' - 10' logs...in my mind exactly what KYLogger was talking about.  If said log was 18" on small end, it was 123 bd feet doyle (10foot).  I would receive $21 to cut skid merchandise and load on the truck.  Landowner would get $23 after shipping (using blocking/tie prices as these logs usually don't grade out well).   IF the landowner knew that tree was only worth $23 would they cut it?  Most I have encountered would not.  Am I making money on it, probably not when you figure the time it takes to collect that short log is the same it takes to cut, collect and skid treelength 250 bd foot log.  It creates a big mess with all that knarly ugly top left in the woods and you better cut them last or the top fall out of the way so you don't have to mess with it.

IMO most LO could do more for their woodlots, but how does the forestry community go about educating on the importantce of proper forestry managment, and just as important, the economics of forestry,  How can I justfy a LO spending 200-300 per acre to treat invasives and do TSI work when they may not live to see the ROI and the kids have no interest in the property, what interest there is would be $ related.   

I will say that their are those in my area that feel the veneer markets will be even better for those in the future because of past high-grading.  I had a veneer buyer tell me it is harder and harder to fine quality logs, the job I am on now I have only cut a few veneer trees, it was logged in the early 90's.  I am cutting a lot of hickory because that is what was left. 

I think this is a good thread and brings up many issues that should be addressed pre harvest.  Hopefully it also sets some expectiations as to what can be expected to be accomplished during a timber harvest.  A thinning is not the same as a final felling operation and each has its place.

I look forward seeing what happens on monday.  I hope Tom gets some resolution. 

[mesquite buckeye]

Well put CBF. ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Tom_Averwater]

We do have a hardwood pulp yard or two that one of the sawmills opened up. Buys it, then resells and trucks to Mead Westvaco up in Chillicothe. But it only pays $23 a ton. Numbers don't add up for hauling on a single axle. I think most guys that do take the paperwood are giving the LO about $3/ton.

I was told we would get $ 2.00 a ton for pulp . We are 1 1/2 hours from the paper mill .

[chester_tree _farmah]

I think what does looks acceptable and what doesn't to folks will vary by regions. In places where more industrial land management and harvesting happen - like Maine  for example - those pictures do not look so bad. In areas of lower income - like Maine for example - you will find more folks wanting to get all of the money they can out of one harvest because they need it - and for most of those folks that one lump sum is truly a lot of money and could help them greatly.

But all that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is it sounds like Tom wanted a more limited harvest and didn't get one. It sounds like  the Forester created a contract for a very heavy harvest that did not reflect the wishes of the landowner.

Folks need to keep in mind - as long as a harvest is done within the law it is the landowners choice on what type of harvest they want. We may not agree with their choice but it is their choice. Whether it is an educated one or not.

[ga jones]

Well put cuddlebugfirewood.

[ga jones]

While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.

[treeslayer2003]

I think what does looks acceptable and what doesn't to folks will vary by regions. In places where more industrial land management and harvesting happen - like Maine  for example - those pictures do not look so bad. In areas of lower income - like Maine for example - you will find more folks wanting to get all of the money they can out of one harvest because they need it - and for most of those folks that one lump sum is truly a lot of money and could help them greatly.

But all that is irrelevant here. What is relevant is it sounds like Tom wanted a more limited harvest and didn't get one. It sounds like  the Forester created a contract for a very heavy harvest that did not reflect the wishes of the landowner.

Folks need to keep in mind - as long as a harvest is done within the law it is the landowners choice on what type of harvest they want. We may not agree with their choice but it is their choice. Whether it is an educated one or not.

this^^^^^^ wise words and truth. the landowner did not get what he wanted even though he used a consultant. words to remember.
on the pulp, i can only get 19 a ton for hard wood pulp and 2 would be to much to pay......it ain't worth it to haul it 60 miles.
now, what we have here to pulp [sweet gum, poplar, maple] will grow into tie log and matt log timber. so i don't cut it unless its a clearing. beech is the only thing here i hate and try to kill off.......it is taking over from high grades from years past. well that and holly.

[treeslayer2003]

While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.

that happened here too.......they took good hard wood ground and converted it to pine plantations. now pine is the cheapest thing there is.......tie logs pay much better than huge pine. i will always think the pine mills were behind it......now they are almost all gone. they told landowners the hardwood was junk and should be sheared off or sprayed............i come along years later and they can't believe what i paid them for one load of big oak and poplar.
it is a shame what they did with the pine plantings. its starting to turn around now but look at the resource we could have had.........

[pasbuild]

Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill)  this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.

[Southside]

While we're on the supply demand side of things, the foresters, mills and markets have shaped a lot of the industry and what we harvest and what we leave behind. The push for faster growing conifers dominates management practices in places like California Maine and the south and probably the lake states also. The Appalachian hard wood market is here but the conifer markets aren't. So we manage for the market? Maybe I'm wrong. I just herd some talk on NPR about this issue in California with native tribes saying there are fewer oaks for acorns in there native diet due to this. The government passed out scotch pine for free about 50 years ago here they said it's the forest of the future. Now we clear cut it in hopes the hard wood comes back.bigger machines bigger bills more wood. That's the way the industry wants it. Faster faster faster. Who's fault is it really? Yes toms case is a mess. And there is a series of errors. This could happen anywhere.just a thought.

that happened here too.......they took good hard wood ground and converted it to pine plantations. now pine is the cheapest thing there is.......tie logs pay much better than huge pine. i will always think the pine mills were behind it......now they are almost all gone. they told landowners the hardwood was junk and should be sheared off or sprayed............i come along years later and they can't believe what i paid them for one load of big oak and poplar.
it is a shame what they did with the pine plantings. its starting to turn around now but look at the resource we could have had.........

I can't agree with you more, there is a lot of plantation pine in our area, and only three mills that buy pine logs, two of which are pretty small.  We just don't learn.  As a kid I recall learning how pine in Maine was the only "valuable" tree back in the "old days" and big spruce, really big, was used as a fall break to keep the pines intact, can you imagine doing that today?  I am only 42 and personally remember when both tamarack and poplar was considered "junk", now both bring good money. 

A lot of the problem boils down to guys trying to make a go of it with too many payments on their plate thinking volume is the solution. 

Like the others here I feel for Tom, he did his due diligence here and got shafted by those he paid to protect his interest.  The fact the forester rode over with the logger to discuss the issues is still a giant red flag for me and hopefully will show a conflict of interest here and create an avenue of some sort of resolution for Tom. 

[KyLogger]

We live in a generally impoverished area (relatively speaking) Our counties population is around 6,288, our median HOUSEHOLD income is around $26,000 vs. $42,600 for national average...... Peoples outlook on timberlands here is quite different than in other regions of the US. Here if LO's are selling their timber they usually fall into three categories. 1. Inherited the land (possibly absentee) and want to profit before selling. 2. Are either younger or elderly and need the cash, and may not live to see another harvest if they are older. 3. Sell in fear of damage (tornadoes, ice storms etc....) and are scared of losing future revenue. It's kinda like a one time withdraw from the bank. The timber cut here is by most peoples standards, "high graded" ( If I am cutting a boundary I sure ain't gonna leave money in the woods!) The markets here demand high quality hardwood sawlogs. We have no tie mills left, no pulp mills, no chip & saw etc...... You cannot generalize forestry practices, they vary greatly from region to region. I do care about the woods MY WOODS what another landowner chooses to do with their timberlands is their business. I just get contracted to get the wood out...... If I tell a LO "You really ought not cut this boundary this hard,  you need to think about the future"......guess what...........they are gonna find another logger. I take pride in my work, do the best job I can at protecting the leave trees etc.... The result is plenty of work, and happy LO's.

End rant..... ;D

Tom

[Jeff]

Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill)  this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.

Amen, The reason I resigned from the MFRA board.  MFRA was supposed to be to help educate the public. It took me a couple years to find out that the big boys were like everybody else. Everything revolved around the biggest and quickest money. I and member stamp, who worked for the DNR both resigned, pretty much leaving procurement foresters from places like G.P. L.P. International paper and a view others.  I felt I could do more here.

[dustintheblood]

As much as I'm now old enough to know better, and young enough not to care, I have racked up some years in this business.

There's a term I came up with years ago - "race to the bottom".  Our industry is totally guilty of it.  Do it for less and less and less, and then wonder why there's no money being made.  Worse than that, the suits on wall and bay streets are knocking on the mills doors to ask how much they made today, and have no appreciation or value for what's on the horizon tomorrow, let alone two generations from now.

I spend decades growing a tree, invest in machinery, fell it, forward it, process it, dry it and stack it.... and what's it worth?  Enough?  Not nearly.

The downturn/crash/recession - whatever you wanna call it - did weed out some of the bad actors, but I do fear that when things pick up, everyone's gonna forget the lessons learned and go back to simply applying their misguided logic when it comes to balancing the environmental / economic and social aspects of our sector.

So in the meantime, I choose to do what's right for our woods, and for those I work with in the industry.  I just hope that there's a return to value being placed on wood.  A social value, an economic value and an environmental value.

[treeslayer2003]

Everything I see here leads me to think that the forester is a procurement forester ether working for or with the end user (mill)  this is exactly what we see here from COMPANY foresters.

Amen, The reason I resigned from the MFRA board.  MFRA was supposed to be to help educate the public. It took me a couple years to find out that the big boys were like everybody else. Everything revolved around the biggest and quickest money. I and member stamp, who worked for the DNR both resigned, pretty much leaving procurement foresters from places like G.P. L.P. International paper and a view others.  I felt I could do more here.

i commend you sir for standing up for whats right. i try, but no one cares what one tiny logger thinks.......exept my land owners who have seen two and a couple seen three harvests in their life time........hopefully they will see one or two more. who knows what happens when we are gone but we must do our part.
i cut big timber because my father and men like him left small trees.........simple as that.

[treeslayer2003]

We live in a generally impoverished area (relatively speaking) Our counties population is around 6,288, our median HOUSEHOLD income is around $26,000 vs. $42,600 for national average...... Peoples outlook on timberlands here is quite different than in other regions of the US. Here if LO's are selling their timber they usually fall into three categories. 1. Inherited the land (possibly absentee) and want to profit before selling. 2. Are either younger or elderly and need the cash, and may not live to see another harvest if they are older. 3. Sell in fear of damage (tornadoes, ice storms etc....) and are scared of losing future revenue. It's kinda like a one time withdraw from the bank. The timber cut here is by most peoples standards, "high graded" ( If I am cutting a boundary I sure ain't gonna leave money in the woods!) The markets here demand high quality hardwood sawlogs. We have no tie mills left, no pulp mills, no chip & saw etc...... You cannot generalize forestry practices, they vary greatly from region to region. I do care about the woods MY WOODS what another landowner chooses to do with their timberlands is their business. I just get contracted to get the wood out...... If I tell a LO "You really ought not cut this boundary this hard,  you need to think about the future"......guess what...........they are gonna find another logger. I take pride in my work, do the best job I can at protecting the leave trees etc.... The result is plenty of work, and happy LO's.

End rant..... ;D

Tom

i hear ya Tom, but i bet your cuts aren't that bad.......the old heads did it right or you wouldn't have any thing to cut.

[KyLogger]

Boils down to I cut what the LO wants cut as long as it is profitable. I don't log for my health. Comparatively speaking, my cuts look great compared to most........ I tend to err on the side of leaving borderline trees.

[NWP]

i cut big timber because my father and men like him left small trees.........simple as that.
[/quote]

I had a guy call the other day about some standing timber he had. He said he had a few 18" walnuts and some that were about 14". I told him he really should let the smaller ones grow if they weren't needing to come down. He called me back and said he'd decided to let them grow. I always tell people my boys have to have something to cut when they grow up.

[dustintheblood]

We got three boys under 14.  Late each summer I take them out and we mark the timber we're going to cut that fall & winter.  They know what to leave for their grandkids.

[treeslayer2003]

at least there is a few of us then

[Lumberjohn]

Well correct me if Im wrong but isnt the forester in a bind here? He made double commission on this loggers bid compared to the next, you think he wants to lose it?
Unless he is working under some other type of pay, he has to be good to the loggers, they are his paycheck.
I remember on one job I had to pull cable and add chain to get some dead woodpecker poles that didnt pay me anything. They were nowhere near any timber I was cutting. It was nothing for the forester to paint an X on them, I had hours of work for no pay pulling them out.
All foresters should have to cut timber for a minimum of 3 years for PIECE RATE as well as studying their books IMO.

[BargeMonkey]

 Due to age, and the downturn the last few yrs there are less guys around, and here the bad apples stand out. This area has been highgraded so long that finding big stuff can be a challenge.
I have a outlet for pulp, saw logs, FW, even some pine for OWB customers, we dont waste a thing. 2 jobs ago i walked away from some 18" oak, after i cleared away the garbage in 12-15yrs they will be ready when i come back.
The problem i get around here is 2 sided. Until i show the landowner why you cut the garbage heavy they look at you funny, then i get the loggers with a farm tractor running to the landowner telling them how much of a huge mess mechanical logging leaves. Im about to cut a 120acre lot next my father cut in 78-79, all the small oak he left is ready.
So much of it boils down to the area and the landowner, the hot thing around here is to cut it off before they sell the land to the city, and every logger will brag how great he is but when these get cut they get hammered. I just got a nice typed up letter from the forester i deal with on how my last lot exceeded his expectations using a buncher, most guys hack and smash.
I think Tom got screwed, he trusted someone who he thought was acting on his behalf and it wasnt so. Unfortunately he should have seen red flags when their bid was 2x as much, and when they started unloading big skidders.

[chester_tree _farmah]

There was a nice pre-commercial thinning job done in south Chester last year with a feller buncher. They can bunch the small stuff nicely. It was not really pre-commercial because they chipped it all for biomass but in traditional terms it was pre-commercial. For reference.

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like semi-commercial. ;D

They tried mechanized precommercial thinning up here. Our specs call for more tightly spaced trees than the machines can work in without damage. You can cut paths fine, but when it comes to actually thinning there is too mch damage. And we have to cut those whip-like trees that grow in close to the leave tree. Try that with a machine without ripping off the bark.  ;)

I've seen saw bades on mini escavators, and too much damage, too open. One fellow with one was a school teacher turned logger. He went broke fast. Plus a guy on his feet stepping around the trees can cover more ground at less cost. $80,000 machine versus $1500. ;) Might sound fun running a blade from inside a cab, but try it for 3 weeks and see how you like it. It's a lot different than cutting logs by machine. It's the borg, them little trees keep coming at you. :D

[chester_tree _farmah]

Yeah I can imagine it must get pretty tedious sitting on your butt all day in a cab. Kind of like a desk job.

The thinning done that I mentioned was after two harvests done probably 8 years apart. This time they thinned most of the hardwood out and left the fir and spruce that had come on since the final cut a few years ago. So yes it worked well in this case because the F&S was in patches and they were able to use the hardwood areas they cut to move the machines around.

Good to see work looking to the future though. There are a lot of wood lots behind me. A fellow with two small Clarke's did a great job cutting quite a few of the lots over a two year period. He cut it hard but left some trees that would be decent size in 10 years etc. Next thing u know only 1 or two years later some of the land owners let a feller buncher and big grapples come in and take anything the first guy left behind. The lots that we not re cut a year later look pretty good now and are well stocked. The ones that were recut are all covered with 1 to 2 inch dbh white birch, black birch, beech and poplar.

The trick is u go to the town hall. Get names of typically out of state absentee LOs who never come up here and dangle the $ in front of them. Most of them don't even know they can make $ off the land so it is like winning the lottery when they are contacted.

[luvmexfood]

There is about a 40 acre tract a couple of mile from me that was recently cut and the landowner now has the land up for sale. The logger did a pretty good job with his skid roads but took everything marketable.

His landing sat right in the corner of two state roads with a fairly high bank on each side but he was able to cut a road up to the landing.

Problem is he dozed out for his landing and as needed pushed his short cut-offs over the hill and let the old fence catch them. Landing has not been dressed back up and looks like crap. First thing a potential buyer sees.