what are high engine hours on machines

[barniescamp]

What are high engine hours on these diesel engines, Im looking at a 2004 Johne deere 753G feller with 15,000hrs with an asking price of $75,000CA in really good condition, then theres a 2001 Timber Jack 608S with 4,500hrs in really good condition also and the asking price is $80,000CA. How many hours can these diesel engines (in general) go before they need a rebuild.

[grassfed]

As a general rule I figure 10k hours before a complete overhaul for an engine that has been run normal and well maintained. Some of the newer engines are supposed to do better than that.

[1270d]

The newer engines seem to go quite a bit longer than the older stuff.   Always exceptions of course.   Several of our forwarders have or have had over 15000 on an engine.   My last harvester had 13k and still used exactly no oil.       The 6068 John Deere seemed to last around 8 k hours in our equipment.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Our forwarder has a 904LA mercedes in it with over 22k hours on it. Its getting a little tired and down on power and uses a little oil but it keeps on ticking.  :D

[kiko]

I would be more concerned with 15k on the machine than on the engine.  As far as engine builds go, the 6068s are inexpensive to build.  I see the 6068s fail similar to 1270d.   6 to 8k. Seems to be when most need an overhaul.  That engine probably has been reworked at least once. 

[1270d]

As a side note, I've always been told "never buy iron that comes out of Canada".    Apparently the Canucks run their stuff hard.

[barbender]

  Haha 1270, I heard that about southern iron ;)  I hate to generalize, I've seen abused iron everywhere I've been to. We have a forwarder with over 20k, still going strong (Ponsse Buffalo with a 6 cyl. Mercedes). We do lose a few with lower hours, but it seems like the CTL equipment tends to get a lot more hours out of engines. It seems like all the conventional equipment is on borrowed time past the 10k mark. I hear there is a Ponsse Beaver harvester up in Canada that has always ran 24/7, double or triple shifts, that is approaching 40k original engine hours on the 4 cylinder Mercedes. Having engine preheaters and or only shutting down for oil changes, eliminating cold starts, seems to greatly extend engine life in our northern climates.

[barniescamp]

I would be more concerned with 15k on the machine than on the engine.  As far as engine builds go, the 6068s are inexpensive to build.  I see the 6068s fail similar to 1270d.   6 to 8k. Seems to be when most need an overhaul.  That engine probably has been reworked at least once.

I just spoke to the owner of the john deere with 15k on it and the motor was never touched, it has all new undercarriage and rebuilt final drives. its the hrs on the engine that make me nervous

[HiTech]

Just did a motor job on a tractor with 2100 hrs. The engine oil pump went up and the idiot light never came on signaling low or no oil pressure. You just never know how long they will last. Another thing I see is most use 15 - 40 oil in everything they own. Some equipment is not designed to run that weight oil. In warm weather it maybe alright, colder weather it may not circulate fast enough on start ups to lube everything the way it should be. A lot of older stuff used 10 - 30 or 10 - 40, I know not much difference. Some recommend straight weight oils. I saw a 3-53 Detroit Diesel go 32,000 hrs. on a generator. I could not believe it. One guy took care of it and serviced it faithfully. You just never know when you turn the key. People get rid of machines for a reason. Most of the time they have had or expect trouble.

[grassfed]

One thing to consider is how critical is the machine to your operation. Do you have backup equipment? How much would downtime cost?

Truck engine manufactures rate engines using a B number so B 50 at 600,000 miles would mean that after 600,000 miles half 50% of the engines would still be running and half would need to be rebuilt. So B 10 at 250,000 miles would mean that 90% are still running and 10% need rebuilding and so on...

Steady state engines like generators, ships, long haul trucks... last longer than engines that change load and or start stop and idle allot.

Feller bunchers probably last toward the upper range for forestry equipment because they run fairly steady for long periods of time. Skidders are at the other (short end) of lifespan because they are pulling heavy going to the landing and light loaded going back to the forest plus they often have to idle for long periods of time.

If you buy the 15,000hr machine get an oil test and a compression test. I would factor the rebuild cost in over the next 1000 hours. You could also consider shopping for a spare engine and have that ready for a swap. It is always much more expensive to get emergency repairs done plus you may have to rent or subcontract a job to keep up production.

[AlexHart]

With the full disclaimer that I don't run a feller buncher but know some folks that either do or have my humble .02 would be that the motor will probably be towards the least of your worries and that things like valve banks, pumps, undercarriage, and god forbid metal shrapnel in the hydraulic system (if anything blows) will be the far bigger source of headache, direct expense, and downtime.   

If your looking at a 12 year old 15K hr machine for 75K I think it might be prudent to have at least another third of that money on hand and ready to deal with the aforementioned issues.    Hopefully that will prove to be on the conservative side but in this business that's not a bad place to align yourself. 

[logging pete]

 Here's my take on engines in 45 years of logging and trucking.  I have 15K on my 6068, it is still strong. It is in a 133 fabtek. I like Deere engines, but I have been pricing a repower or overhaul. I have also had Allis, Perkins Detroits, Komatsu, Duetz, and Cummins.  None of them would go as long as a Deere. Maybe Duetz, never had one long enough to get 10K on it. N14 Cummins were good in trucks as were the older Cats. I have a 12.7 DD60 in my truck now, its been good, not Cummins or Cat torque, but good on fuel. The BTA Cummins is a good low cost replacement  for the 353 and 453 Detroits, but that is all they are, I have been disappointed in my 2 current 4BTA's. I would consider them done by 10K hours, if you can get there.  I have had only 3 new engines, 2 in skidders and one repower,1 recon. BTA. I haven't been shy about buying used.  Northern WI ,I run hardest in the winter, that might help them last.

[mf40diesel]

Whoever it was the made the point about pre-heating and preventative maintenance said it best.  Preheating is not terribly likely in forestry equipment, unless you log your own land and park your skidder by the barn where you can plug it in, however if the oil, fuel filter and air filter are changed regularly, and the machine is allowed some warm up most of these small diesels should be good for 12-15k. 

Bigger ones, like on my ship, are almost in-comparable to these smaller ones,  they are all just about at operating temp before we even start them, then go through a several minute pre-lube cycle so all the bearing are bathed in oil before it even turns over.  On my last ship the mains each had just over 200,000 hrs.  Of course lots of rebuilds, but original block/crank.

[danbuendgen]

Pre heating is possible in the woods! Look into Espar heaters. http://www.esparparts.com/ They burn diesel overnight and it keeps the coolant warm. It can also be set on a timer. Popular with over the road truckers, but they make basic ones for equipment also.

As far as expected engine life... It all depends on how well it was cared for. How often was the oil and filter, air filter, fuel filters, coolant changed? If it was not done often, it wont last as long. My skidder mechanic (retired logger also) swears by changing the oil in forestry equipment every 100 hours, and air and fuel filters every 200-300 hours depending on conditions. When he was logging, his engines lasted MUCH longer then other peoples. Forestry application is much harder on engines then over the road trucking, farming, ect...

The guy that does all my log trucking had over 30,000 hours on his c16 cat before it blew up. He always plugged it in over night, let it warm up slow, and cool down slow. He changed his oil at 300 hours (larger oil capacity then a skidder, buncher ect) Changed his air and fuel filters every other oil change, and coolant every year.

I would say any diesel should last to 10k but getting up to 20k or 30k is not uncommon with proper maintenance.

barniescamp, Honestly I would not worry about the hours if it was cared for, but that can be a needle in a hay stack... How does the motor start up? Any smoke? If so, what color? Have you checked the blow by? What is the oil pressure when warmed up? Doing a compression test would be good, but I doubt the owner would let you, or your mechanic. However, maybe they would let you do a oil sample? That would tell you all you need to know, they tend to be very accurate. GOOD LUCK!

[barbender]

Something else I have noticed- it seems to me that some engines do better in a given application  than others, and may be horrible in another application. One example- when I worked on an asphalt paving crew, we used Cat pavers, rollers, and a lot of othe Cat equipment. I can't think of a single engine failure on the Cat 3116 and 3126 engines, and they were highly regarded. However, when you start looking at used Ponsse machines, the few years they used those same Cat engines are considered by many to be machines to stay away from. "Pukiest motor I ever had!" one guy told me. Cummins B series engines in pickups- go forever, can't top 'em in my opinion. But I just heard my boss cursing the "piece of crap Cummins" that just let go in his slasher/loader at around 8000 hours I think.

[kiko]

Future failure is not easily predicted.  Singular oil samples are useless IMO.   Oil sampling must be done regularly to see progression in wear.   In the south I think heat is the factor.   I have never seen a power tec jd engine make to 15k.   And I have seen a bunch of them from the inside.  The top ring land is to close to the top of the piston and it will break off.   Most of the rebuilds on these engine are basically what I call an out of frame in frame .    No block work, bearings , piston and liners, head rework and always 6 new injectors as they only 70 bucks each.  Not related but,  I recently had to replace an injector in a QSB 6.7 cummins,  1800 for one !!

[RHP Logging]

I've got a quick coupler that runs from my heater hoses on the truck and circulates hot coolant through the block before start up in winter.  It fires like it's 60 degrees out when it's 10 below.  I've heard rumors that it's bad for your truck.  I haven't had a problem in 5 years of doing it.  Anyone else heard that?

[barbender]

     RHP, there have been heated (no pun intended ;D) debates on the quick coupler issue before. Kiko, those injector prices are what keep me from getting into a newer Dodge Cummins. I wish I could find a clean pre 98, but up here in salt land that's wishful thinking.

[danbuendgen]

The BTA Cummins is a good low cost replacement  for the 353 and 453 Detroits, but that is all they are, I have been disappointed in my 2 current 4BTA's. I would consider them done by 10K hours, if you can get there.

First off, it would be cheaper to just rebuild the Detroit, rather then doing a Cummins swap.

Getting over 10k hours is definitely possible with a 4bta Cummins, before I went out on my own logging, I worked for a outfit that had 23,000 hours on a 4bta in a Valmet forwarder. Oil was changed every 200 hours. They also had a 6bta in a 460 Timberjack with 18,000 hours, that was years ago, and I spoke with my old boss just the other day, and he told me both are still running strong.

Also, guys that do the "hot shot" light trucking with a Dodge Cummins can get over a million miles on a original engine, with proper maintenance.

[danbuendgen]

I've got a quick coupler that runs from my heater hoses on the truck and circulates hot coolant through the block before start up in winter.  It fires like it's 60 degrees out when it's 10 below.  I've heard rumors that it's bad for your truck.  I haven't had a problem in 5 years of doing it.  Anyone else heard that?

Sure, all the old timers around here used to do that. The issuse now is that the newer engines with fancy computers get confused with cold coolant coming in from no where. I guess it throws codes and who knows what. I had the quick disconnect fittings with my old 89 Dodge Cummins and my first skidder. Worked great. I want to do it with my newer service truck 03 3500 Dodge Cummins and my TJ and Rottne. Just need to run the HOAT coolant in the equipment. I dont think my 03 will bother with the cold coolant coming in, I think thats just newer trucks.

[1270d]

Just out of curiosity, what do others do for oil changes/intervals.   

Currently I'm running 600 hour changes on rotella t6 in our ponsse machines as s per dealer recommendation.  Change all the filters (air, fuel and oil) at that time as well.   Air filters need to be cleaned several times in between changes.     

In the past I have sent oil out for sampling, and they have always come back saying the oil was still good, keep running.   


Ponsse says the new 4f Mercedes powered machines will have a 900 hour service interval!

[Spartan]

I've got a quick coupler that runs from my heater hoses on the truck and circulates hot coolant through the block before start up in winter.  It fires like it's 60 degrees out when it's 10 below.  I've heard rumors that it's bad for your truck.  I haven't had a problem in 5 years of doing it.  Anyone else heard that?

Sure, all the old timers around here used to do that. The issuse now is that the newer engines with fancy computers get confused with cold coolant coming in from no where. I guess it throws codes and who knows what. I had the quick disconnect fittings with my old 89 Dodge Cummins and my first skidder. Worked great. I want to do it with my newer service truck 03 3500 Dodge Cummins and my TJ and Rottne. Just need to run the HOAT coolant in the equipment. I dont think my 03 will bother with the cold coolant coming in, I think thats just newer trucks.

Thats a good point, be sure that whatever you are using the quick coupler with has the same coolant as the machine or visa versa.  Some vehicles require special coolants.

[RHP Logging]

I've got a quick coupler that runs from my heater hoses on the truck and circulates hot coolant through the block before start up in winter.  It fires like it's 60 degrees out when it's 10 below.  I've heard rumors that it's bad for your truck.  I haven't had a problem in 5 years of doing it.  Anyone else heard that?

Sure, all the old timers around here used to do that. The issuse now is that the newer engines with fancy computers get confused with cold coolant coming in from no where. I guess it throws codes and who knows what. I had the quick disconnect fittings with my old 89 Dodge Cummins and my first skidder. Worked great. I want to do it with my newer service truck 03 3500 Dodge Cummins and my TJ and Rottne. Just need to run the HOAT coolant in the equipment. I dont think my 03 will bother with the cold coolant coming in, I think thats just newer trucks.

I've got an 2001 f250 with the 6.8. and I haven't had any issues.  I've heard about tripping codes, but someone told me the cold coolant hitting the hot head can warp it. 

[danbuendgen]

I've got a quick coupler that runs from my heater hoses on the truck and circulates hot coolant through the block before start up in winter.  It fires like it's 60 degrees out when it's 10 below.  I've heard rumors that it's bad for your truck.  I haven't had a problem in 5 years of doing it.  Anyone else heard that?

Sure, all the old timers around here used to do that. The issuse now is that the newer engines with fancy computers get confused with cold coolant coming in from no where. I guess it throws codes and who knows what. I had the quick disconnect fittings with my old 89 Dodge Cummins and my first skidder. Worked great. I want to do it with my newer service truck 03 3500 Dodge Cummins and my TJ and Rottne. Just need to run the HOAT coolant in the equipment. I dont think my 03 will bother with the cold coolant coming in, I think thats just newer trucks.

Thats a good point, be sure that whatever you are using the quick coupler with has the same coolant as the machine or visa versa.  Some vehicles require special coolants.

I am told by my mechanic, mixing different types of coolant is a big No No. It will cause all kinds of issues. Don't mix the old school green type with the newer HOAT, it can cause a bad reaction and can gel up!

Older equipment is harder on oil so, I have been doing my oil changes at 100 hours, that's with non-synthetic oil, Chevron Delo oil. I go 6000 miles in the trucks (Dodge Cummins), with Delo 400 15w40. The Detroit gets Delo 100 (40 wt). I think I could go longer, but oil is cheaper then a motor, best to play it safe. I also use Baldwin filters.

[danbuendgen]

I've got an 2001 f250 with the 6.8. and I haven't had any issues.  I've heard about tripping codes, but someone told me the cold coolant hitting the hot head can warp it.
[/quote]

When I say newer, I mean the last few years for codes. I also doubt it could warp a head, The coolant doesn't cycle that fast, and its mixing in with the warm coolant. I have heard on no issues around here with people doing it...