Newbie saying hello to everyone...and a purchase question

[sdN8ive]

Been lurking and reading a lot on the board, figured it was time to say hello...and thank you to everyone....Newton said "The reason I have seen further than others is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"....you all have a ton of knowledge about sawing and it's a real service to be able to learn from you....without having to do it the hard, and expensive, way

I'm just about to plunk-down a good chunk of change for a 10-inch swingblade sawmill....not a huge amount of money...just everything I have....and would appreciate your collective wisdom on two (hopefully) very precise questions:

1: I understand that swing blade mills have a slight tilt to the blade...to keep it from dragging on the back side....when you try to double cut how does everyone quickly change that angle to make the cuts meet at the center of the double cut?


2:  I have seen and used a Lucas mill....didn't like it....have narrowed my choices down to Peterson or D&L....both manual mills....cannot afford the ASM style stuff....and I did Instumentation / Controls / Pumps/ Motors for a living for many years,...so I can add automated features later if I want....

Here is the question:  I'm finding it hard/impossible to justify the big jump in cost for the Peterson...Is there a compelling reason that brand is worth $5K more than D&L?

I know D&L weighs more...and have heard from several folks that they have made many changes to the mechanics of the mill over time.....not sure if that's true, but just what I heard....I'm most concerned with function....I will move the mill...but not very often....I expect to mill mostly the hardwood on my property (130 acres) and several other local sites over time....most will be Poplar, Red Oak, and Hickory...with a little Sycamore from time to time...most will be dimensional lumber for building barns and sheds.....I may play with furniture but that is a hobby....the mill just needs to make accurate, cost effective dimensional lumber....and if I can use it to make log-cabin kits that's a plus

Thanks in advance for the help....and I will let you all know how things go as I move into this new venture!   8)

[fishpharmer]

sdN8ive, welcome to FF!  I am a Lucas owner and fan so no real help with your questions. 

[samandothers]

Band mill owner but wanted to say hello!

[killamplanes]

Welcome, and I'm sure someone with experience in these mills will be along shortly

[terrifictimbersllc]

Regarding double cutting, I haven't done it, but I would think it would be easy to arrange a shim between the two bolts that determine the horizontal tilt. I've usually just tolerated the ridge and the customer never has minded.

[sdN8ive]

Terrific Timbers....thanks....how big a ridge do you get...and what size blade are you using?

[terrifictimbersllc]

26" six tooth hardwood blades from Peterson. Kerf is 1/4".  Ridge varies I'd say less than 1/4 probably 1/8 mostly.  Talking usually over a 16-20" wide double cut board or beam.  Haven't done that many of them and I remember I could see what was going to happen in advance by positioning the blade over the end of the log where one cut had been made, seeing how the cuts would line up.

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, sdN8ive!

[plantman]

I am a sawyer wanna-be just like you and I was also considering the D&L as my first choice. However, I've come across some people on this forum who have expressed reservations about the D&L. Luckily,  I happened to find a D&L owner who showed me his mill because the company doesn't have any distributors . This to me is a little concerning because if you buy through a distributor locally then you have someone you can go back to and who will be accountable for the product. If you buy from the factory in Canada there really is nothing they can do for you except to mail you small parts. What if the frame cracks ?
But on to my experience. When I saw the 10-20 mill I was pretty impressed with the size and I instantly thought that it was not something I would want to be moving around on a regular basis. When the owner pushed the carriage through a oak log it did want to shake a little. You have to keep in mind that it's a heavy motor suspended up in the air riding over a log of hard wood. But it cut pretty nicely, not exactly like cutting through butter but nice.
The owner also said that he had some small problems with the Subaru engine so I would try to avoid that one. One of the problem was the small air filter on the engine which needed cleaning frequently.
Perhaps you could explain your dissatisfaction with the Lucas ? That was my second choice.

[plantman]

Hi Chuck White

I see by your description that you own a woodmizer LT40. Everyone seems to like their woodmizers but from a inexperienced outsiders perspective it looks like operation a bandsaw would be a pain in the behind with way the blades stretch and get dull frequently which can be expensive. And then there's the problem with the fact that these bandsaw mills can't accommodate very large logs and you have to get the log up on the mill. Have you ever considered a swingblade mill ?

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, sdN8ive!

[sdN8ive]

Plantman,

You asked about my impression of the Lucas mill.....I only had a chance to see one in operation....so that is limited....it was an 8-inch mill...and made great 2x6's...but the tracks are suspended, so the whole thing swings around a bit...even with stabilizer braces at the ends....so not too happy with that....and definitely did not like having to walk to each end to raise / lower the mill...I can understand that would be a positive feature in some applications....but if you have your log on level bunks it is not so much fun....and most of all you cannot reasonably do double cuts.....raising the entire carriage off the tracks and turning it around for the second cut...really?  That more than anything is pushing me away from Lucas.....I have already had people ask about heavier beams...and I need something that will make at least an 8x16...and always need 4x14 for over garage double doors

[TKehl]

1: I understand that swing blade mills have a slight tilt to the blade...to keep it from dragging on the back side....when you try to double cut how does everyone quickly change that angle to make the cuts meet at the center of the double cut?


2:  I have seen and used a Lucas mill....didn't like it....have narrowed my choices down to Peterson or D&L....both manual mills....cannot afford the ASM style stuff....and I did Instumentation / Controls / Pumps/ Motors for a living for many years,...so I can add automated features later if I want....

0:  Since your focus is dimensional, have you considered a used Mobile Dimensional mill?  They seem great for infrequent moves and spit lumber faster than a swinger.  They just don't come up used all that often.
1:  Don't do double cuts often, but when I do, it cleans up in the planer. 
2:  Assuming you are looking at a WPF.  Just curious what you don't like about the Lucas.  There is more alike than different between Lucas and Peterson.  I could definitely see the harder method of double cutting and additional walking to separate "raise/lower" cranks on each end of the mill being detractors.  Beyond that...

I'd recommend trying a Peterson and D&L in person.  I'll add that used Petersons IMHO sell faster than D&L.

Other questions:

1:  Are you set on 10"?  For hobby use, a smaller size (6 or 8 ) would save a bunch of money.  How many 12"+ boards do you plan to make/use?
2:  Do you have any support equipment?  Tractor, construction equipment, etc.
3:  Have you considered a small bandsaw to start with?  Lots of small mills out there with good resale value if you find out it's not for you or want to upgrade.

[YellowHammer]

I know very little about swingmills so can't help there. 

As others suggest, a small bandmill will easily produce an 8x16 or 4x14. 
Changing blades isn't a big deal, and if you stay out of dirty bark, they will last 400 to 1,000 bdft.

[Percy]

Heya sd8Nive.
Welcome. My son Warren bought a Peterson 10 inch WPF in 2008. It was his first mill. I helped him with choosing it as we seen several lucas mills and while we both were impressed with them, they wern't as easily converted to long length cutting as the lo-lo track version of the Peterson WPF and we needed long length capabilities with not much fuss. That poor old WPF sits pretty much idle now as it is completley worn out. It also has several million board feet of beams and lumber under its belt. Warren used it as a full time production machine which IMO, it wasn't really designed for...but modifications to the wheels and a spare gearbox to rebuild when the one in use started to leak. We got good at rebuilding them. It wasnt an issue as the thing went 12 hours a day for months on end cutting 24-30 foot Western Red Cedar beams and side lumber. The original 24 hp Honda was tough and would not die, but didnt have the hormones for what warren was doing with it. After alot of fabricating, we put a 35 hp Kohler on it and that matched the 10 inch blade much better than the wimpy 24 hp honda. Ill attach a hi speed video of them cutting a 12x24x24 foot cedar beam on it. Not dissing any other brand but the peterson did the job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1YSTMkdiso

[Ianab]

Do you actually need the 10" cut?. An 8" mill with a smaller engine would save you a big chunk of cash, and probably do everything you want? With the double-cut you can make 16 x 8 beams, or bigger if you want to flip the log over like Percy's video shows.

Think about your average building? Most of the lumber is 8" or less. And the occasional larger beam or floor joist you can produce by double cutting. Same with furniture.

BTW, the trick to minimising the ridge is to place a beer bottle top on the adjustment bolt when you are cutting from the other side. This will change the tilt of the blade just enough to meet up.

[ButchC]

As Ianab said it is pretty easy to shim the lead out of a Peterson for double cutting. I also agree with what he said about your capacity needs. In spite of the fact that I thought I needed a 8 or 10" mill I couldn't justify the expense and went with the JR and with 6" single and 12" double cut.  I must say that I have have yet to be wanting for material size or capacity but it is strictly a farmer owner/user mill. I am not into slabs and beams but with some creative log turning I can still cut a large beam.
I may be a bit out of line  here because I have never been up close to a D&L mill but at least part of the extra expense in a Peterson is due to the portability. It is all designed around one man easy and quick set ups. If you dont move it around you are not using part of what you pay for. I dont move around much but neither do I let my mill set  out and it's no biggie to tear it down and put it in the barn. The mill is usually is set up on an old concrete slab and when it is necessary to clean up the saw dust it is easier to tear it down and make a couple passes with the loader bucket than it is to work around the frame work with a shovel ;D 
I would also add that I wouldn't make any big plans for automation until you have some time on the mill. With ideal placement of the logs and finished lumber stack A manually operated  swing mill is not very labor intensive to operate, at least when operated on a part time basis. I am 61 and can saw up 6-8 logs in short day plus store the lumber away for drying and still feel like chasing momma around after supper 8)

[Percy]

BTW, the trick to minimising the ridge is to place a beer bottle top on the adjustment bolt when you are cutting from the other side. 

Easy to find ;D ;D

[MbfVA]

I think I've been talking with the thread originator by email, so I won't duplicate.  Let me toss out a couple of observations.

For some reason I'm having dumb problems with the touch interface on my iPad, with lots of mistakes popping in after I take my finger away, etc. I hope I caught the typos. Siri is truly worthless for accurate dictation, but my thumbs are even worse.

Bear in mind my relative newbie status, not that much different from yours. I did a lot of research leading up to my purchase, the great majority of it on or related to this forum, but I don't have much experience.

I have seen the bottlecap thing work on the 10 inch WPF mill that I bought from my seller in Ohio.  It's pretty funny, but it does work--the board looked great, with no discernible ridge that I could see, maybe feel a tiny little bit, but given that swing blades produce rough sawn lumber anyway, not really noticeable.

I need to watch the video above, and by the way I've been told that the gearbox on that saw has been redesigned. You're getting pretty heavy advice on here from guys who know what they're talking about, particularly Ianab.  The thing about 8 inch versus 10 inches probably good to consider. I'm not sure if I would've put out the money for 10 inch header not been able to get a used one like I did.

A slabber came with mine, but I haven't attempted to use it; at $2200, the Peterson attachment is rather pricey.  I think Lucas gets about half that for theirs, and Bailey's will discount it if you buy with the mill.  Turbosaw $2800.  Of course the usual advice that you bear in mind is you get what you pay for.

I am learning more about Lucas from listening to the people on this thread that I knew before for sure.

I like the aluminum and stainless steel build of the Peterson, and the Hi-Lo arrangement is really good for moving your logs to the log bed.  I set mine up without the high side at first, and believe me it makes a difference.

I strongly suggest a dedicated blower for getting rid of the sawdust, but who knows if that will work. Definitely have to do it as you go along. The hollow frame on the Peterson makes it easier, people say. I'll give you an opinion when I generate a lot of sawdust.

It is certainly within what I perceive as your competence to design something to get the logs over the rail if you buy a Lucas or similar.   There are two sided wheelchair ramps sold by northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company, for example.

I also like with the down under folks call single point sizing--One crank, or in my case, one motor, raises and lowers the saw head.   Frankly, I might go nuts running from one into the other to turn 2 cranks.   But don't discount the ease of moving the simpler & lighter mill around.

Regarding bandmills, I do miss the automation that some of them have.  But as I said in another thread you perhaps read, and which was also proffered above, start with a manual mill and learn what you're doing, learn how feels to go through the wood.   Easier on the pocketbook, too.

[Chuck White]

Hi Chuck White

I see by your description that you own a woodmizer LT40. Everyone seems to like their woodmizers but from a inexperienced outsiders perspective it looks like operation a bandsaw would be a pain in the behind with way the blades stretch and get dull frequently which can be expensive. And then there's the problem with the fact that these bandsaw mills can't accommodate very large logs and you have to get the log up on the mill. Have you ever considered a swingblade mill ?

To some, it seems like the bandsaw mills won't process a very large log, but it may surprise you as to what they will handle!

The largest diameter log I've processed on my mill was 42" in diameter, and the mill handled it without much of an issue!

It does take a little more work to handle the larger logs, but then we have a choice of whether to process it or not!

As far as blades, I've never had much of an issue with them!  I have my own sharpener, so I always have a supply of sharp blades.  If I happen to hit a nail in a log, most times I can salvage the blade, but in the rare case where I can't, I just scrap it and new blades can be had from Wood-Mizer for under $20.00!

Every since I first saw a swingmill video here on the Forestry Forum, I've been impressed as to what they can do.

I got to tail one (a Lucas) a couple of years ago, and was impressed by their operation and ease of use!