WOOD GARAGE FLOOR

[RAYGYVER]

I'd bag the sand if possible and use #9's to avoid capillary moisture through the fine aggregate. That's why we use clean washed rock under a slab. I'd be aggressive with the casters/engine around the shiplap and see if they break off. The shorter and thicker you can make them the better. I like the gym floor idea, you can use more or total sleeper area out of your ugly wood. IIRC the foam is good for ~10psi, there are 144si's in a sf. Residential loading is 40 psf, commercial 100psf, shop is whatever you need but there probably won't be a tank on it.

Bag the sand? 
I have noticed the #57's gravel the contractor put down was not washed. Is this a major problem? I have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall. Should I remove the gravel and wash it? That would be a lot of work with no skid steer....The other option I was trying to show in the picture, was taking foam down the toe plate of the barn, down past the gravel, creating a moisture barrier from the outside soil making contact with the gravel. That would be less work than washing the gravel.
What you see in the model is 2" boards with a 1" x 1" lap. That is a good point. Maybe keep it 1" deep, but with a 1/2" lap. 
There are 4608 si's in a 4' x 8' sheet of foam. At only 10 psi thats a butt-load of loading ability. An engine stand and a 327 ain't going to touch that!! I am only working with 4" above the gravel I already have in the barn. So going 2" foam would force me to have to go with a thinner floor board, making thinner laps....I'd like to keep the boards 2". 

[Crusarius]

I would do an 8x8 floor so you have a joint in the foam. that is something worth testing to see how the floor reacts over the joint and how the joint reacts under the floor.

If I didn't have such nice hardwoods I am cutting I would be very tempted to try this same experiment.

[RAYGYVER]

I would do an 8x8 floor so you have a joint in the foam. that is something worth testing to see how the floor reacts over the joint and how the joint reacts under the floor.

If I didn't have such nice hardwoods I am cutting I would be very tempted to try this same experiment.

Good point. two sheets of foam it is. I'll be running those foam joints perp to the floor boards. I'll be staggering the joints, so the foam board joints will never have a 4-way intersection.

[Crusarius]

perfect. If it wasn't for all the stuff I already need to get done before the winter this would be a fun test to do. I still have 44 logs that need to be milled before winter. Of course mother nature has a different idea. Its been raining every time I can get the mill out.

[RAYGYVER]

perfect. If it wasn't for all the stuff I already need to get done before the winter this would be a fun test to do. I still have 44 logs that need to be milled before winter. Of course mother nature has a different idea. Its been raining every time I can get the mill out.

Well that sucks. Might have to get out there and do it in the rain!! That could be dangerous. 
Yeah I can't wait to get this done! My barn is going to be the coolest man-cave I've seen around here. Wood floors, board and batten walls....The handrail in the loft will have milled rails, and I am doing rebar spindles. 
So, after the main floor....I still have the loft floor to do. That'll be a lot less complicated!

[btulloh]

I have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall.

Probably should look into how water is being drained (or not drained) away from the perimeter of the building. I'd make sure the perimeter drained water away from the building.  Change grading or put trench/gravel/drain pipe to get water away from the building.  Gutters?

[RAYGYVER]

I have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall.

Probably should look into how water is being drained (or not drained) away from the perimeter of the building. I'd make sure the perimeter drained water away from the building.  Change grading or put trench/gravel/drain pipe to get water away from the building.  Gutters?

Gutters yes. 
I did install a french drain along the front of the barn where there is a slight slope towards the barn. I cannot fix that slope. I am at the highest (almost) point on the property. I did hire a guy to come regrade in the spring and that helped a lot. I screwed up and took my downspout straight down to the ground and put the connector that connects the downspout to the underground corrugated pipe at grade level. I was getting water coming out of that connector and seeping into the ground. I have since shortened the downspout and now have it tied together much better, no spillage in that corner now. Still, I think a little more work around the perimeter wouldn't hurt. At this point I am thinking because the exterior walls are so tall, I am getting rain hitting the walls, and running straight down and collecting at the toe plate. Not sure how to solve this other than installing a french drain at the base of the wall. 

[Brian_Weekley]

I don't see what would hold shiplap down.  If boards twist and warp, there's nothing to help hold them together and in place like T&G.  Maybe consider splines if you don't want to cut T&G?

[RAYGYVER]

I don't see what would hold shiplap down.  If boards twist and warp, there's nothing to help hold them together and in place like T&G.  Maybe consider splines if you don't want to cut T&G?

If I air dry the slabs before final dimensioning, won't they hold their shape pretty well? T&G would be a little more work upfront, but not much more than the shiplap....
Anyway, I have to mill the Ash, and let it dry for awhile. So we have time to really work this out.

[D L Bahler]

This this application you cannot expect the boards to hold their shape. They will be subject to uneven loading and moisture conditions (such as spilled liquids) that will cause them to move in unpredictable ways. 

Remember that once a split, twist, or warp has started it is impossible to stop it. However, properly tying things together will prevent this process starting, and cause the stresses to find an easier path to resolution. 

So your best bet is really to t+g the boards together. This will keep them moving unevenly by redistributing the stress across multiple boards -or throughout the floor as a whole. There is a reason why heavy duty wooden floor is always t+g'd together. This is the most efficient method there is to get the floor to function as a single unit, rather than as a bunch of boards sitting beside each other. 

[RAYGYVER]

This this application you cannot expect the boards to hold their shape. They will be subject to uneven loading and moisture conditions (such as spilled liquids) that will cause them to move in unpredictable ways.

Remember that once a split, twist, or warp has started it is impossible to stop it. However, properly tying things together will prevent this process starting, and cause the stresses to find an easier path to resolution.

So your best bet is really to t+g the boards together. This will keep them moving unevenly by redistributing the stress across multiple boards -or throughout the floor as a whole. There is a reason why heavy duty wooden floor is always t+g'd together. This is the most efficient method there is to get the floor to function as a single unit, rather than as a bunch of boards sitting beside each other.

I guess you're right. I'm pretty new to wood working, and especially new to drying milled lumber and estimating movement. This experiment shall be a learning experience. 
The T&G should be easy enough to cut on the table saw, and maybe I will build a router table for my router to cut the groove side. 
So I guess....a beveled T&G approach is appropriate?
Well....I drew it up. So if I have a beveled T&G it'll go together easier than if the T&G were square. 


 
 

 

[Crusarius]

you can buy router bit sets for tongue and groove. I do not think I have ever seen any tapered. I would not want tapered. that will be much more likely to push itself apart. I would rather have the face of the boards tight together than the tongue. proper tongue and groove does not actually allow the tongue to bottom out in the groove.

[RAYGYVER]

you can buy router bit sets for tongue and groove. I do not think I have ever seen any tapered. I would not want tapered. that will be much more likely to push itself apart. I would rather have the face of the boards tight together than the tongue. proper tongue and groove does not actually allow the tongue to bottom out in the groove.

Good to know. I'll google those router bit sets!!!

[RAYGYVER]

Menards sells 2x6 x 20' T&G SYP with the beveled T&G like I had modeled up.....just throwing that out there. This does give me an idea of how fast that new saw mill will pay for itself though...hahaha 8)



 

[Brian_Weekley]

This is how I did mine:

Tongue and Groove in Timber Framing/Log construction

[Ruffgear]

I still think you need a cross member underneath to tie everything together (keep from cupping etc) then you can get by with shiplap, just have exposed fasteners. You could always beef up below if you have an idea of where your loads will be. Around here you go straight down with foam around perimeter at least 2', but that's for frost. I also agree with Don on the rock and 2" foam. Should be a fun project, good luck.

[RAYGYVER]

I still think you need a cross member underneath to tie everything together (keep from cupping etc) then you can get by with shiplap, just have exposed fasteners. You could always beef up below if you have an idea of where your loads will be. Around here you go straight down with foam around perimeter at least 2', but that's for frost. I also agree with Don on the rock and 2" foam. Should be a fun project, good luck.

Assuming I could compact the gravel to give me an additional 1", or removing some gravel, I'd have more room to work with. Maybe I could do some sleepers on top of a 1" foam board. Then fill in between those sleepers with 1" foam board giving me a better insulation and moisture barrier. Shiplap would be much easier to cut. Its two cuts per board edge on the table saw. But I would have more cost in foam and sleepers. I might be able to get away with using untreated sleepers that I have milled since they will be on top of a foam board. 
In terms of spills, I do plan on laying a large rubber mat down under the lift as I work on cars. I'm not so naive to think I will never spill it on the wood, but hey, it would be easy enough to replace.
The big negative to T&G is that I cannot easily replace a board in the middle of the floor. Shiplap would be easy to replace, but should probably require the sleepers.
I'd rather have the functionality and convenience the shiplap brings. It might not be as stable at T&G, but maybe it will be stable enough when screwed to a sleeper grid....hmmmm...
This is fun guys, thanks for the brainstorming....

[RAYGYVER]

Shiplap with 1x8 sleepers. 2 layers of 1" foam. 



 

[Ruffgear]

I like that better. I agree with you on ship lap, much easier to make. I've only made my own tongue and groove a couple times, a bit of a pain wtitout proper machinery. Last time I did a clg and just made groove on both sides then made a spline to fit between two boards.
Do you have any door openings you have to worry about water getting in?

[RAYGYVER]

I like that better. I agree with you on ship lap, much easier to make. I've only made my own tongue and groove a couple times, a bit of a pain wtitout proper machinery. Last time I did a clg and just made groove on both sides then made a spline to fit between two boards.
Do you have any door openings you have to worry about water getting in?

Two man doors and a large 12' wide slider. My plan on that was to do a concrete or stone paver pad about 2'-3' from the door. Just some place to step in and not get water on the wood. I want to come up with a way to seal the slider door also. I think I can with some large sweeps. Won't be totally sealed, but good enough. 

[RAYGYVER]

https://youtu.be/hIqOgqpNLXw

This guy brings up some good points....

[Crusarius]

Thanks Ray. you just solved all my issues with the radiant concrete slab and hardwood floor. Why did I not think of this years ago? 

[RAYGYVER]

Thanks Ray. you just solved all my issues with the radiant concrete slab and hardwood floor. Why did I not think of this years ago?

Crusarius,
   I am wondering if a groove can be cut in the bottom of my boards, just like this guy did, and use a steel u-shaped track to sit each board on. Basically mimmick this guys design exactly, on a larger scale, with cheap and easily available materials. 

[Crusarius]

I would look at different aluminum extrusions way over steel. steel will rust. The other thing you need is some type of spring load to hold the board together and still allow expansion. 

An extrusion may be available off the shelf or not but if your looking at enough lineal foot I can't imagine it would cost to much to have some custom made. can always have plastic extrusions made to that should be cheaper than aluminum. I am just hoping aluminum extrusion will be available right off the shelf.

[Crusarius]

The other thing I was wondering is if the plastic held the board above the floor or if they machine the bottom of the board to keep it flat to the floor. I can see benefits to both ways. for my application I would want it tight to the floor for the radiant heat transfer.