White Pine vs SYP vs Doug Fir studs

[Sedgehammer]

Have a chance to get the 175 2x6x10' studs for $11.71 per. They are white pine. They are actually 12', but only need the 10'. They are white pine. any worries using them for the studs on our 2 story barn build?

I can get DF or SYP, but be closer to $20 in price.

Thanks

[sawguy21]

I don't know what building codes if any you are subject to but we don't use pine for framing. D fir is the standard but the price has gone stupid and getting worse. >:(

[Texas Ranger]

SYP is more than adequate, but quality has fallen off at a lot of the box stores.  A reliable building supply house should fill the bill.

[Don P]

They will work but sheath all walls and preferably block at midheight if the sheathing is drywall on both sides. If they get taller, as in a balloon framed gable end revisit this.

The reason to sheath or block a stud wall. Push down on a yardstick, it fails by buckling sideways. Code limits the "least unbraced dimension" of a column to l/d 50... so a 2x that is 8' tall is already slightly too slender for its height. It doesn't take much to prevent the buckling but they do need to be held straight. The classic example is someone calls with a floor vibration problem. A quick visit to the basement and there is a bare stud wall supporting the floor midspan . If someone does a heeldrop on the floor above you can watch the studs vibrate. Either blocking it or slap some drywall on it and the problem goes away.

For those that have been following my griping about the european "SPF" hitting the building supplies, depending on where it is coming from it has the same design values as eastern white pine. Builders who would never dream of framing in EWP are using that stuff unawares. My letter will probably be in JLC in the next month or two.

[Sedgehammer]

@Don P Thanks

They will only be exterior and have 5/8 CDX over them. I haven't pulled said trigger yet, but it's tempting.......

I just saw I can get DF for $13.83 per, plus get 3% in points. That makes them $13.42

I had read about the SPF a while ago. Nice ain't it

[thecfarm]

Thanks for the blocking tip. 

[hamish]

White pine is widely used in framing material.  SPF grade 2 is more than acceptable in Canada, the NLGA issues the stamp.

If it wasn't for white pine i doubt a single structure on the eastern coast of North America would have ever been built.

Member of the white pine college, Gilles Bros Lumber, Stone, Stone Consolidated, out of business thanks to free trade and tarrifs

[Southside]

Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same.  There is some land around Square Lake in northern Maine where - at least in the '90s one could still see the very vague outline of the kings marking on EWP trees that were destined to become masts for HMS sailing vessels.  Massive spruce was laid down to act as a cushion for the pine to land on, then the spruce was left behind.  To have wide plank EWP flooring back in those days was considered patriotic as you were telling the crown just what you thought of them.  

Just like barns in western VA that are sided with Cherry and Walnut, many quite large buildings up north were framed from EWP, and built on grade with nothing more than a layer of field stone.  The only reason they fall is because folks don't keep up with the roof.  

[Don P]

I probably wrote that too fast. The Canadian SPF we all know and love carries a base bending design value of 875 psi in #2. The new European SPF's can be as low as 575 psi in #2, the same as white pine. Nothing wrong with that as long as everyone knows what they are using. The problem occurs when someone is basically trying to confuse in labelling a product that has widely understood engineering properties.

[Sedgehammer]

@hamish @Don P 

with that all said, wood you pull the WP $11.74 or the DF $13.83 handle?

[Ianab]

@hamish @Don P

with that all said, wood you pull the WP $11.74 or the DF $13.83 handle?

What does the plan call for? A design for WP probably has closer spaced studs and more blocking (more labour). That would probably make up the difference in price. If you have to use 20% more wood, you aren't saving anything. If the design calls for WP, then using the better DF is basically overbuilding. Alternatively, because the price difference isn't huge, maybe you would go with the DF and have a slightly stronger structure? DF also has better rot resistance. 
 

The OP has almost double the price difference, and could make extra blocking from the 2ft trimmed from each stud. In that case it would pay to adjust the design and just use a few more WP studs. 


Strength wise you can build with pretty much any wood, but you might have to adjust your design to suit the various strengths. You don't build with WP from a plan that calls for Oak etc. 

[Sedgehammer]

@Ianab Thanks for the post! 

I put the plan together, so there's no architect or engineer that did it. It's based on all my years of accumulated experience combined with just enough knowledge to either get the job done or get me in trouble, so far ain't got in trouble..... ;D well, with the wife I have a time or 3, but that's another story...... :D Since it's sheathed with 5/8 CDX there's no call for blocking per Don P and it's 16" OC. 

[Don P]

Look at your jamb widths before sheathing with 5/8. If they are set up for a stock 2x6 wall then you are doing very thin jamb extensions, if 4-9/16 stock jambs then you are doing custom extensions anyway so it doesn't matter. Exterior doors get extended on the exterior face and use sill extensions or custom sills. The hinge knuckles and door swing binds if extended on the inside. Non standard thickness walls increase the workload, something to consider in the discussions about board sheathing as well. Not insurmountable by any means but part of thinking through things.

[firefighter ontheside]

I hate driving nails in Doug fir studs.  I feel like half the time I'm either splitting the board or bending the nail.  If i had a choice, I would choose the WP.

[Sedgehammer]

I hate driving nails in Doug fir studs.  I feel like half the time I'm either splitting the board or bending the nail.  If i had a choice, I would choose the WP.

You have a very valid point. If toe nailing the studs, nope. If building the walls on the ground and then standing up. DF is ok for that method.

[Sedgehammer]

well guess what? it isn't white pint after all. it's yellow, so there goes that question. 

[thriceor]

Back in the day when I was in the lumber distribution business (1986- 2007) SPF studs were the standard.  Mostly sourced from Ontario and Quebec.  16" on center with osb or insulation board for sheathing for residential construction.  The practical builders didn't care what they looked like, as they would quickly be covered up on outside and inside.  

[Sauna freak]

I have worked a lot with building various structures in MN with locally sawn wood working for some old pros.  Usually a mix of Red and White pine, sometimes including spruce, fir, tamarack, and even some hardwood species as well as commercially available lumber.

White pine is fine for general purpose studs and framing.  I would prefer the douglas fir or various spruce species for top plates, rafters and corner studs, due to it's higher engineered strength ratings, but wouldn't hesitate to use clean (small tight knots) sound WP for above applications other than rafters if the price difference were significant.

You may wish to use the more expensive DF for high profile applications, the less expensive WP for general framing.

[Brucer]

Douglas-Fir is great for high bending loads: beams, rafters, joists, etc.

S-P-F is pretty much the standard around here for studs and light framing. I doubt you can find a 2x4 or 2x6 in D-Fir in a lumber yard in B.C.

Unless D-Fir is very green, it tends to split easily near the ends. When dry it's harder to get a nail into it.

My daughter is putting up some partition walls in her basement. I have a sawmill and we both have Douglas-Fir growing on our properties. So what are we using for framing? Store-bought S-P-F studs. Lighter, easier to nail, and the price wasn't too bad when we bought the wood in December.

[woodroe]

Eastern Hemlock works for framing and board n batten siding too, just gotta nail it together green.
Splits all to heck dry.

[Don P]

I'm doin my homework for the inspector, aargh, and am deep in the background code (IBC). I came across the section on blocking I was talking about above, here 'tis;
2308.5.7Bridging.

Unless covered by interior or exterior wall coverings or sheathing meeting the minimum requirements of this code, stud partitions or walls with studs having a height-to-least-thickness ratio exceeding 50 shall have bridging that is not less than 2 inches (51 mm) in thickness and of the same width as the studs fitted snugly and nailed thereto to provide adequate lateral support. Bridging shall be placed in every stud cavity and at a frequency such that no stud so braced shall have a height-to-least-thickness ratio exceeding 50 with the height of the stud measured between horizontal framing and bridging or between bridging, whichever is greater.

Back to tonites Greek lesson  :D

[alan gage]

 stud partitions or walls with studs having a height-to-least-thickness ratio exceeding 50 shall have bridging that is not less than 2 inches (51 mm) in thickness and of the same width as the studs

Do they mean an honest to goodness 2" thick or do they mean 2x material that's 1 1/2" thick?


Alan