Price Check South Central PA

[Blackgreyhounds]

I'm working with a local mill (4 miles trucking) on a timber harvest.  Looking at ~80,000 bf International on the stump. Mostly oak (white, chestnut, black, red) and poplar, lots of really nice 75-100 y.o., plenty 30+" dbh trees.  What's a decent range of $/bf I should be expecting?

[nativewolf]

Have you seen Webers recent price list?  It is published, about the biggest mill I know of in South Central, Blue Triangle is now about the same capacity after they moved to automated stickering.

Blue Triangle has export orders for YP, up to 850/thousand right now (some sapwood requirements).  i think it could go higher and good prime logs are 700.  White oak at all the PA mills is much less than alternative outlets (stave buyers- Independent has a buyer in PA and Speyside may be buying for the new mill in PA; QS buyers on the larger diameter 1-3 side logs; veneers, etc).

Weber has raised prices on RO and BO and they are sort of the reverse of Blue Triangle where Blue Triangle has better Poplar than RO or BO.  I think blue triangle still may be paying more than weber for the RO and BO but check on that.  

All the oaks have very strong veneer pricing right now.   See if the amish quarter saw mills can buy CO.  

I have heard that in Central PA WO on the stump has approached $2/bdft.  Not sure if you are a landowner or logger and how you view pricing.  Not sure who the best WO veneer buyers are in PA but really good logs are doing well and the 3 side smaller logs are going for $3 to 3.5.  RO veneers are $1.2-1.6.  

If that's not what you are looking for feel free to PM.

[Blackgreyhounds]

Have you seen Webers recent price list?  It is published, about the biggest mill I know of in South Central, Blue Triangle is now about the same capacity after they moved to automated stickering.

Blue Triangle has export orders for YP, up to 850/thousand right now (some sapwood requirements).  i think it could go higher and good prime logs are 700.  White oak at all the PA mills is much less than alternative outlets (stave buyers- Independent has a buyer in PA and Speyside may be buying for the new mill in PA; QS buyers on the larger diameter 1-3 side logs; veneers, etc).

Weber has raised prices on RO and BO and they are sort of the reverse of Blue Triangle where Blue Triangle has better Poplar than RO or BO.  I think blue triangle still may be paying more than weber for the RO and BO but check on that.  

All the oaks have very strong veneer pricing right now.   See if the amish quarter saw mills can buy CO.  

I have heard that in Central PA WO on the stump has approached $2/bdft.  Not sure if you are a landowner or logger and how you view pricing.  Not sure who the best WO veneer buyers are in PA but really good logs are doing well and the 3 side smaller logs are going for $3 to 3.5.  RO veneers are $1.2-1.6.  

If that's not what you are looking for feel free to PM.

Land owner. Thanks for your reply.

[stavebuyer]

I am not familiar with your local market; but "up to prices" for the best butt logs is not an indicator of fair market stumpage value.

Here is the link to the Penn State stumpage survey;


Timber Market Report | Penn State Extension (psu.edu)

Sounds like you have mature timber which should bring a premium to "average", but there is such a thing as "over-mature" which can be troublesome especially on ridgetops and hills with southern exposures.

Typically, a marked sale with competitive sealed bids will yield the best results.

A good point to keep in mind is that the residual stand and any damage to remaining growing stock is a major consideration. I am a big fan of clear cuts for that reason. "Select cuts" that leave hollow beech, red maple, and skinned up small oaks for seed stock ruin your forests future.

[nativewolf]

I would second what Stavebuyer says.  In particular regarding clearcuts vs select cuts (highgrades) having a forester would help and would likely increase the volume of the sale as they'd push more material into the harvest.  Select cuts are usually very poorly executed and result in a very low quality residual stand composed of mostly low value or unmerchantable stems that were left for that reason.  Those stems suppress regeneration of high quality seedlings, the result is an area lost to forestry for generations.  Far better to clearcut.  Clearcuts also respond quickly, it will be a vigorous young forest in just a few years.  

A second consideration is residual asset value.  If this small tract would be sold in the very near future than plan accordingly, a highgraded or clearcut stand will be less valuable than a stand with beutiful trees.  Often people lose more money on the sale of the property than the timber provided.  Not sure I am stating that very well.  Poorly harvested stands don't look great and sell poorly.  

[RookieLogger]

I buy timber in that area. The going stumpage rate Doyle Scale right now for Poplar is around .30/40. R/O .35/45 unless you have some really exceptional stuff. CO/WO .50/60. Gossert Forestry would be a good company to contact. They manage a lot of local timber and have a great reputation, his sales always get top dollar from what I see.

[Blackgreyhounds]

Thanks everyone.  I need to look at a forester or Gossert.  I'm getting quoted ~$250 right now.

[nativewolf]

Yes if you are quoted at $.25/bdft that's pretty low for large diameter timber, especially if any of that is WO.  

[RookieLogger]

I could see the price being lower due to it being a smaller job or if it's bad access, but yeah .25 is robbery. Especially 4 miles from the Mill

[mudfarmer]

Just curious, do you have a breakdown of species and diameters? That would help you make a better guess. where did the 80k bf # come from?

[Blackgreyhounds]

Just curious, do you have a breakdown of species and diameters? That would help you make a better guess. where did the 80k bf # come from?

Forester came and marked trees.  He quoted me just # of trees and species, not specific bf. About 75 oak trees including 15 WO and 25 chestnut oak, 33 poplar and just a few (~20) other species. When I asked him, he said it was about $0.25/bf. Quote is about $20K total, so that's how I estimated 80 Mbf. 

[stavebuyer]

I'd put that offer on "hold" and do some further research.

Those figures as posted don't seem to align with what I would expect. 

[Blackgreyhounds]

Thanks everyone!  I'm going to get more detailed inventory of trees that the mill's forester marked, e.g. size, quality, bd/ft for each species, etc. and then I'll sit down with him to ask what's up. I could be missing something in the total package.  If there is still a large discrepancy between the Penn State Extension price survey and their offer, I will need to enlist an independent forester.  I'll try to keep this thread updated.  

[Blackgreyhounds]

I got all the BF and species info from the forester and I compared tot he PSU Extension stumpage survey pricing.  Well, going through all of that, I think I may have figured out one error in my math... PSU posts "stumpage" pricing, whereas, the local mill is including everything, logging, skidding, trucking, remediation, insurance... so their proposal is really "delivered to mill" pricing.  I will still review again with the forester, but I can see that they have some costs in there that I wasn't accounting for. Will meet with forester again to double-check.  Thanks again for everyone's input.  

[barbender]

Stumpage price should be for the wood only, on the stump. If I as a logger buy your stumpage, I have to be careful that I don't pay too much or the "gate price" at the mill won't cover my costs of stumpage, logging and trucking to get it to the gate of the mill 

[Blackgreyhounds]

Yes, that of course makes sense.  In this case, the mill will doing the logging, and hauling themselves and/or subcontracting, so that i probably the hidden costs I didn't account for.  

[Firewoodjoe]

All I can comment is around here 75 trees for $20k better be some real good ones. And right now guys are paying 1/3 that if at all even buying it. 

[stavebuyer]

I got all the BF and species info from the forester and I compared tot he PSU Extension stumpage survey pricing.  Well, going through all of that, I think I may have figured out one error in my math... PSU posts "stumpage" pricing, whereas, the local mill is including everything, logging, skidding, trucking, remediation, insurance... so their proposal is really "delivered to mill" pricing.  I will still review again with the forester, but I can see that they have some costs in there that I wasn't accounting for. Will meet with forester again to double-check.  Thanks again for everyone's input.  

You are selling stumpage.  Mill prices and logging costs are the buyer's concern. Your concern is having an accurate accounting of the trees to be harvested.
One day with a diameter tape and you or someone you trust can reasonably verify what has been marked.
Without trying to be offensive, this is a textbook example of how not to sell timber. It took a hundred plus years to grow that timber and we are just now beginning to recover from a really poor Red Oak market. White Oak is red hot and prices are increasing every week. Set the terms and merits of this offer to the side for a moment. The "You" applies to anyone contemplating a timber sale.

You need a plan. First you need an inventory of what you have (not just what has been marked, its condition, future potential, and what impact the harvest will have on the remaining stand. If you don't have that background the first place to start is with a call to your local Div of Forestry. They won't sell your timber but will help you evaluate what you have and what your options are. If a sale makes sense, you need to know that the intended harvest meets with your objectives.  Trusting the buyer to make your management decisions seldom works out in your favor.

If you are going to sell timber;
You or your representative should be doing the marking and tallying. Never sell without knowing what you are selling. No way for anyone to assess value without knowing what the volumes and species are.

I am suspicious of a timber harvest that contains mostly Oak and Poplar.

It is possible that $20,000 could be a fair price for the trees marked and the sale as marked could still be a poor decision. It's also possible on a small boundary that a "proper harvest" is not economically feasible if you leave enough of the better trees for seed stock. You need to know those answers before you proceed. The mill is 4 miles down the road and good timber is increasingly hard to find. Don't be pressured into making a decision without being fully informed.

My advice is to step back and call your local State Div of Forestry. Most likely they will back-logged and it might be a while before they can do a site visit. If you are still determined to proceed then I would at minimum get 2 other bids on what has been marked. Get a written contract and feel comfortable with the terms. The contract a mill hands you will cover their interests and not yours. Things like fences, roads, damage to unmarked trees, clean up, tops across the line, rutting, seeding of yarding areas all need to be addressed. Get paid upfront with a cashier's check deposited in the bank before a tree ever gets cut and an additional 10% damage deposit held in escrow.

[nativewolf]

@Blackgreyhounds Stavebuyers last post is just so spot on.  He is absolutely correct.  Please do contact your dept of forestry or the consulting group mentioned earlier.   

[Blackgreyhounds]

Thanks everyone! Next step is to contact PSU Extension forester...

[yetti462]

I would estimate 80K bd doyle to bring at least $40K.  This is Indiana markets.  I don't know what int. scale converts to on the doyle.

[Blackgreyhounds]

I contacted our local DCNR Service Forester today. Luckily, he had an opening next week to come by and do and initial assessment with me and make a plan. He seems like a very good guy so far.

[Firewoodjoe]

I just don't understand how prices can be so different around the country. You all should see the logs going for crane matts right now here. Sorting clean veneer only. Hole trees going for matts. 

[TechSavvyLog]

I just don't understand how prices can be so different around the country. You all should see the logs going for crane matts right now here. Sorting clean veneer only. Hole trees going for matts.

Clearly, the logs/lumber market is pretty bizarre (suffering from various "odd" and "fringe" factors) compared to some other commodity markets. 

[BargeMonkey]

I think I'm paying to much for this one 😆. Scale sale sheet on a local job I'm moving to. Fair amount of wood, the better hardwood left a few yrs ago, can't get a bid on it, 8 miles from home sure I will go cut it.